Discussion:
What is a syndicate room
(too old to reply)
h***@gmail.com
2008-07-11 15:16:39 UTC
Permalink
Native English speakers please help. What exactly is a syndicate room
in an office building ?
Thanx for helping me out.
tony cooper
2008-07-11 16:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Native English speakers please help. What exactly is a syndicate room
in an office building ?
Thanx for helping me out.
Context is required to answer your question.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
h***@gmail.com
2008-07-11 16:28:59 UTC
Permalink
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"

May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Skitt
2008-07-11 19:02:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Looks like it is an intimate conference room:
http://www.marriott.com/hotels/photo-tours.mi?marshaCode=ormnh&pageID=HWPEM&imageID=1

I had never heard of the term before this, but then, I've never been part of
a syndicate.
--
Skitt (AmE)
No NESsie, but oh, so close ...
Roland Hutchinson
2008-07-11 19:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Skitt
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
http://www.marriott.com/hotels/photo-tours.mi?marshaCode=ormnh&pageID=HWPEM&imageID=1
Post by Skitt
I had never heard of the term before this, but then, I've never been part
of a syndicate.
Are you sure? It's the syndicate, and everybody has a share.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
R H Draney
2008-07-11 20:40:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Skitt
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
http://www.marriott.com/hotels/photo-tours.mi?marshaCode=ormnh&pageID=HWPEM&imageID=1
I had never heard of the term before this, but then, I've never been part of
a syndicate.
We call those "huddle rooms"; they typically hold up to five people before
things start getting uncomfortable...smaller ones here are called "half huddle
rooms"....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Raymond O'Hara
2008-07-11 20:29:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Which brings up "boardroom style".
What is "boardroom style"? I've seen buffet style, home style but boardroom
style is a new one.
tony cooper
2008-07-11 21:01:18 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:29:11 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara"
Post by Raymond O'Hara
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Which brings up "boardroom style".
What is "boardroom style"? I've seen buffet style, home style but boardroom
style is a new one.
A meeting where the participants sit around a table as opposed to
sitting in chairs facing a lectern.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Raymond O'Hara
2008-07-12 22:21:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:29:11 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara"
Post by Raymond O'Hara
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Which brings up "boardroom style".
What is "boardroom style"? I've seen buffet style, home style but boardroom
style is a new one.
A meeting where the participants sit around a table as opposed to
sitting in chairs facing a lectern.
Again. what is boardroom style when refering to catering?
tony cooper
2008-07-12 23:33:50 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:21:59 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara"
Post by Raymond O'Hara
Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 16:29:11 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara"
Post by Raymond O'Hara
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Which brings up "boardroom style".
What is "boardroom style"? I've seen buffet style, home style but boardroom
style is a new one.
A meeting where the participants sit around a table as opposed to
sitting in chairs facing a lectern.
Again. what is boardroom style when refering to catering?
Your question isn't clear, but it seems you are using "catering" to
mean just providing food. A hotel can cater to guests to providing
whatever accommodations they want. In this case, the guests are
having a meeting and the meeting is set-up in a room with a large
table for the guests to sit around. The hotel would still be catering
to the guests providing a room set-up boardroom style even if meals
were not part of the program.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
LFS
2008-07-12 08:20:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Raymond O'Hara
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Which brings up "boardroom style".
What is "boardroom style"? I've seen buffet style, home style but boardroom
style is a new one.
Sitting round a single table, as if in a boardroom. The other
expressions for room layouts that I've encountered when booking
conference facilities are: cabaret style (sitting around small tables);
classroom style (sitting behind tables facing a speaker at the front of
the room); and theatre style (no tables, all rows of chairs facing the
front). There's probably a name for a U-shaped table layout too but I
can't remember it.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
h***@gmail.com
2008-07-12 08:41:09 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for all the contributions. Now I know what a syndicate room is,
what a syndicate is in this special context as well as what "boardroom
style" might mean.
What a great community this is! Extremely useful for non-natives like
me.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
2008-07-12 11:19:49 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:20:41 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Post by Raymond O'Hara
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Which brings up "boardroom style".
What is "boardroom style"? I've seen buffet style, home style but boardroom
style is a new one.
Sitting round a single table, as if in a boardroom. The other
expressions for room layouts that I've encountered when booking
conference facilities are: cabaret style (sitting around small tables);
classroom style (sitting behind tables facing a speaker at the front of
the room); and theatre style (no tables, all rows of chairs facing the
front). There's probably a name for a U-shaped table layout too but I
can't remember it.
I can't think of the name either.

However, the website url-ed upthread mentions the "Delapre
Room". I wonder how "Delapre" is pronounced.

I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Donna Richoux
2008-07-13 13:27:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
However, the website url-ed upthread
I can't find such an url.
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
mentions the "Delapre
Room". I wonder how "Delapre" is pronounced.
There's a Delapré or Delapre Abbey in Northampton (UK). The
accented-minus-nonaccented trick at Google shows that it's spelled with
the accent about half the time.
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
I'm not familiar with Towcester, but I lived near Woburn, Massachusetts,
and the locals make the first vowel as in "wood" or "put". I don't
remember much of an R in the second syllable, either. So it sounds like
something between Wubban and Wib'n. Anyone saying Whoa-burn was an
outsider.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
2008-07-13 14:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
However, the website url-ed upthread
I can't find such an url.
Skitt posted it in a post that is not a direct ancestor of this
one:
http://www.marriott.com/hotels/photo-tours.mi?marshaCode=ormnh&pageID=HWPEM&imageID=1
Post by Donna Richoux
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
mentions the "Delapre
Room". I wonder how "Delapre" is pronounced.
There's a Delapré or Delapre Abbey in Northampton (UK). The
accented-minus-nonaccented trick at Google shows that it's spelled with
the accent about half the time.
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
I'm not familiar with Towcester,
"Toaster"
Post by Donna Richoux
but I lived near Woburn, Massachusetts,
and the locals make the first vowel as in "wood" or "put". I don't
remember much of an R in the second syllable, either. So it sounds like
something between Wubban and Wib'n. Anyone saying Whoa-burn was an
outsider.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Ian Noble
2008-07-15 07:27:55 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:19:49 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:20:41 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Post by Raymond O'Hara
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Which brings up "boardroom style".
What is "boardroom style"? I've seen buffet style, home style but boardroom
style is a new one.
Sitting round a single table, as if in a boardroom. The other
expressions for room layouts that I've encountered when booking
conference facilities are: cabaret style (sitting around small tables);
classroom style (sitting behind tables facing a speaker at the front of
the room); and theatre style (no tables, all rows of chairs facing the
front). There's probably a name for a U-shaped table layout too but I
can't remember it.
I can't think of the name either.
However, the website url-ed upthread mentions the "Delapre
Room". I wonder how "Delapre" is pronounced.
I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
"Toe-ster", "Woe-burn"

Cheers - Ian
BrE: Yorks., Notts., Hants.
Alan Jones
2008-07-15 07:41:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Noble
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:19:49 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
[...]
Post by Ian Noble
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
"Toe-ster", "Woe-burn"
woo-b'n

Alan Jones
Mike Lyle
2008-07-15 12:18:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Jones
Post by Ian Noble
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:19:49 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
[...]
Post by Ian Noble
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
"Toe-ster", "Woe-burn"
woo-b'n
Yes: "WOO-b'n" (a trochee).
--
Mike.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
2008-07-15 12:22:59 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:41:51 +0100, "Alan Jones"
Post by Alan Jones
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:19:49 , "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
[...]
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
"Toe-ster", "Woe-burn"
woo-b'n
<smile>

I'd offered "toaster" for Towcester, but kept silent on Woburn.

My impression is that both "woe-burn" and "woo-b'n" are in use
although the latter might, in some sense, be more "correct".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Ian Noble
2008-07-25 05:04:35 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:41:51 +0100, "Alan Jones"
Post by Alan Jones
Post by Ian Noble
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:19:49 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
[...]
Post by Ian Noble
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
"Toe-ster", "Woe-burn"
woo-b'n
Never heard of it. Maybe that's a local pronunciation.

(Sorry - been out of the country for the last week.)

Cheers - Ian

The UnInmate
2008-07-15 12:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ian Noble
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:19:49 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:20:41 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Post by Raymond O'Hara
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Which brings up "boardroom style".
What is "boardroom style"? I've seen buffet style, home style but boardroom
style is a new one.
Sitting round a single table, as if in a boardroom. The other
expressions for room layouts that I've encountered when booking
conference facilities are: cabaret style (sitting around small tables);
classroom style (sitting behind tables facing a speaker at the front of
the room); and theatre style (no tables, all rows of chairs facing the
front). There's probably a name for a U-shaped table layout too but I
can't remember it.
I can't think of the name either.
However, the website url-ed upthread mentions the "Delapre
Room". I wonder how "Delapre" is pronounced.
I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
"Toe-ster", "Woe-burn"
Cheers - Ian
BrE: Yorks., Notts., Hants.
What's the term for a classroom structured so that small desks are laid out
in a circle and the instructor sits at one of the small desks on the
perimeter, with essentially nothing inside the circle?
tony cooper
2008-07-15 13:00:18 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:31:05 -0400, "The UnInmate"
Post by The UnInmate
Post by Ian Noble
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:19:49 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:20:41 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Post by Raymond O'Hara
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Which brings up "boardroom style".
What is "boardroom style"? I've seen buffet style, home style but boardroom
style is a new one.
Sitting round a single table, as if in a boardroom. The other
expressions for room layouts that I've encountered when booking
conference facilities are: cabaret style (sitting around small tables);
classroom style (sitting behind tables facing a speaker at the front of
the room); and theatre style (no tables, all rows of chairs facing the
front). There's probably a name for a U-shaped table layout too but I
can't remember it.
I can't think of the name either.
However, the website url-ed upthread mentions the "Delapre
Room". I wonder how "Delapre" is pronounced.
I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
"Toe-ster", "Woe-burn"
Cheers - Ian
BrE: Yorks., Notts., Hants.
What's the term for a classroom structured so that small desks are laid out
in a circle and the instructor sits at one of the small desks on the
perimeter, with essentially nothing inside the circle?
Is there a term at all? Does there need to be a term for this? The
arrangement is usually accomplished by the instructor saying "Move
your desks (chairs) into a circle."
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
The UnInmate
2008-07-15 13:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:31:05 -0400, "The UnInmate"
Post by The UnInmate
Post by Ian Noble
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:19:49 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:20:41 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Post by Raymond O'Hara
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Which brings up "boardroom style".
What is "boardroom style"? I've seen buffet style, home style but boardroom
style is a new one.
Sitting round a single table, as if in a boardroom. The other
expressions for room layouts that I've encountered when booking
conference facilities are: cabaret style (sitting around small tables);
classroom style (sitting behind tables facing a speaker at the front of
the room); and theatre style (no tables, all rows of chairs facing the
front). There's probably a name for a U-shaped table layout too but I
can't remember it.
I can't think of the name either.
However, the website url-ed upthread mentions the "Delapre
Room". I wonder how "Delapre" is pronounced.
I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
"Toe-ster", "Woe-burn"
Cheers - Ian
BrE: Yorks., Notts., Hants.
What's the term for a classroom structured so that small desks are laid out
in a circle and the instructor sits at one of the small desks on the
perimeter, with essentially nothing inside the circle?
Is there a term at all?
As the person asking the question, I can't be expected to know the answer.
Post by tony cooper
Does there need to be a term for this?
That sounds unnecessarily hostile and rhetorical.
Post by tony cooper
The
arrangement is usually accomplished by the instructor saying "Move
your desks (chairs) into a circle."
Never had that experience. This particular instructor, a high school teacher
who headed the English department, had had "his" classroom in that
configuration for years before me and presumably did for years after.
Chuck Riggs
2008-07-16 15:25:31 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:00:18 -0400, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:31:05 -0400, "The UnInmate"
Post by The UnInmate
Post by Ian Noble
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:19:49 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:20:41 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Post by Raymond O'Hara
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Which brings up "boardroom style".
What is "boardroom style"? I've seen buffet style, home style but boardroom
style is a new one.
Sitting round a single table, as if in a boardroom. The other
expressions for room layouts that I've encountered when booking
conference facilities are: cabaret style (sitting around small tables);
classroom style (sitting behind tables facing a speaker at the front of
the room); and theatre style (no tables, all rows of chairs facing the
front). There's probably a name for a U-shaped table layout too but I
can't remember it.
I can't think of the name either.
However, the website url-ed upthread mentions the "Delapre
Room". I wonder how "Delapre" is pronounced.
I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
"Toe-ster", "Woe-burn"
Cheers - Ian
BrE: Yorks., Notts., Hants.
What's the term for a classroom structured so that small desks are laid out
in a circle and the instructor sits at one of the small desks on the
perimeter, with essentially nothing inside the circle?
Is there a term at all? Does there need to be a term for this? The
arrangement is usually accomplished by the instructor saying "Move
your desks (chairs) into a circle."
When an instructor is in charge of students so young they're playing
games with chairs, she is called a "teacher", in my experience.
"Instructors" aren't normally seen until kids are at least of high
school age and, more likely, of college age.
--
Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
LFS
2008-07-16 16:21:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Riggs
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:00:18 -0400, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:31:05 -0400, "The UnInmate"
Post by The UnInmate
Post by Ian Noble
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:19:49 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 09:20:41 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
Post by Raymond O'Hara
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Which brings up "boardroom style".
What is "boardroom style"? I've seen buffet style, home style but boardroom
style is a new one.
Sitting round a single table, as if in a boardroom. The other
expressions for room layouts that I've encountered when booking
conference facilities are: cabaret style (sitting around small tables);
classroom style (sitting behind tables facing a speaker at the front of
the room); and theatre style (no tables, all rows of chairs facing the
front). There's probably a name for a U-shaped table layout too but I
can't remember it.
I can't think of the name either.
However, the website url-ed upthread mentions the "Delapre
Room". I wonder how "Delapre" is pronounced.
I see that the list of "Area Sights" contains some pronunciation
hurdles for foreigners: Towcester and Woburn.
"Toe-ster", "Woe-burn"
Cheers - Ian
BrE: Yorks., Notts., Hants.
What's the term for a classroom structured so that small desks are laid out
in a circle and the instructor sits at one of the small desks on the
perimeter, with essentially nothing inside the circle?
Is there a term at all? Does there need to be a term for this? The
arrangement is usually accomplished by the instructor saying "Move
your desks (chairs) into a circle."
When an instructor is in charge of students so young they're playing
games with chairs, she is called a "teacher", in my experience.
"Instructors" aren't normally seen until kids are at least of high
school age and, more likely, of college age.
I don't think anyone mentioned playing games. I often have to ask
students to move the furniture around although when I did a stint of
teaching at one of the world's leading business schools a porter (AmE:
janitor?) used to ask me in advance how I wanted my teaching room
arranged and had it ready when I arrived.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
R H Draney
2008-07-16 19:06:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
I don't think anyone mentioned playing games. I often have to ask
students to move the furniture around although when I did a stint of
janitor?) used to ask me in advance how I wanted my teaching room
arranged and had it ready when I arrived.
"Janitor" in the lower-class schools; "custodian" in the better
neighborhoods....

That was in the 60s and 70s...now it's probably "facilities maintenance
engineer" at all levels....r
--
Evelyn Wood just looks at the pictures.
LFS
2008-07-16 20:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by R H Draney
Post by LFS
I don't think anyone mentioned playing games. I often have to ask
students to move the furniture around although when I did a stint of
janitor?) used to ask me in advance how I wanted my teaching room
arranged and had it ready when I arrived.
"Janitor" in the lower-class schools; "custodian" in the better
neighborhoods....
That was in the 60s and 70s...now it's probably "facilities maintenance
engineer" at all levels....r
Amazing...no song there...
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Mike Lyle
2008-07-16 20:15:16 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by LFS
Post by R H Draney
"Janitor" in the lower-class schools; "custodian" in the better
neighborhoods....
That was in the 60s and 70s...now it's probably "facilities
maintenance engineer" at all levels....r
Amazing...no song there...
You don't know that rather witty feminist number, "I'm the maintenance
engineer"?

Oh, and they have "jannies" in Scottish schools. Playground folklore
casts them as child-molesters. IIRC, there was one at Bash Street
School, too.
--
Mike.
R H Draney
2008-07-16 20:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by R H Draney
Post by LFS
I don't think anyone mentioned playing games. I often have to ask
students to move the furniture around although when I did a stint of
janitor?) used to ask me in advance how I wanted my teaching room
arranged and had it ready when I arrived.
"Janitor" in the lower-class schools; "custodian" in the better
neighborhoods....
That was in the 60s and 70s...now it's probably "facilities maintenance
engineer" at all levels....r
Amazing...no song there...
Not even "Carrie-Anne" by the Hollies?...r
--
Evelyn Wood just looks at the pictures.
LFS
2008-07-16 20:49:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by R H Draney
Post by LFS
Post by R H Draney
Post by LFS
I don't think anyone mentioned playing games. I often have to ask
students to move the furniture around although when I did a stint of
janitor?) used to ask me in advance how I wanted my teaching room
arranged and had it ready when I arrived.
"Janitor" in the lower-class schools; "custodian" in the better
neighborhoods....
That was in the 60s and 70s...now it's probably "facilities maintenance
engineer" at all levels....r
Amazing...no song there...
Not even "Carrie-Anne" by the Hollies?...r
<speechless with admiration>

I *loved* the Hollies and there they are on YouTube. Brilliant.

But.. do you have prefects at schools in the US?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Sara Lorimer
2008-07-16 21:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by R H Draney
Not even "Carrie-Anne" by the Hollies?...r
<speechless with admiration>
I *loved* the Hollies and there they are on YouTube. Brilliant.
But.. do you have prefects at schools in the US?
Not in my experience, and I went to boarding school. I wouldn't be
surprised to find out that there were some prep schools with them,
though.
--
SML
Pat Durkin
2008-07-17 21:53:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sara Lorimer
Post by LFS
Post by R H Draney
Not even "Carrie-Anne" by the Hollies?...r
<speechless with admiration>
I *loved* the Hollies and there they are on YouTube. Brilliant.
But.. do you have prefects at schools in the US?
Not in my experience, and I went to boarding school. I wouldn't be
surprised to find out that there were some prep schools with them,
though.
I have mentioned that in the orphanage school I attended (from grades 4
through 8) there were many practices that resemble the boarding school
in organization. "Prefect" was the title given advanced students given
the responsibility to supervise study halls, check hall passes, and
other such lead student powers.
tony cooper
2008-07-16 23:24:08 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:49:45 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
But.. do you have prefects at schools in the US?
We not only don't, but the expression is so strange that the first few
times I came across it in books I thought it was a typo for "perfect".
Another word for "swot".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
R H Draney
2008-07-17 00:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:49:45 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
But.. do you have prefects at schools in the US?
We not only don't, but the expression is so strange that the first few
times I came across it in books I thought it was a typo for "perfect".
Another word for "swot".
First time I heard the word it referred to an ape...that's bound to have had an
effect on subsequent encounters....r
--
Evelyn Wood just looks at the pictures.
Mike Lyle
2008-07-17 19:34:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by R H Draney
Post by tony cooper
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:49:45 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
But.. do you have prefects at schools in the US?
We not only don't, but the expression is so strange that the first
few times I came across it in books I thought it was a typo for
"perfect". Another word for "swot".
First time I heard the word it referred to an ape...that's bound to
have had an effect on subsequent encounters....r
You'd like the English schools, including Rugby (where we're led to
believe the system was...er...perfected) where the prefects are called
"praepostors".
--
Mike.
Roland Hutchinson
2008-07-17 21:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Lyle
Post by R H Draney
Post by tony cooper
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:49:45 +0100, LFS
Post by LFS
But.. do you have prefects at schools in the US?
We not only don't, but the expression is so strange that the first
few times I came across it in books I thought it was a typo for
"perfect". Another word for "swot".
First time I heard the word it referred to an ape...that's bound to
have had an effect on subsequent encounters....r
You'd like the English schools, including Rugby (where we're led to
believe the system was...er...perfected) where the prefects are called
"praepostors".
Nobody's perfect.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Chuck Riggs
2008-07-17 15:32:26 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 17:21:40 +0100, LFS
<snip>
Post by LFS
Post by Chuck Riggs
When an instructor is in charge of students so young they're playing
games with chairs, she is called a "teacher", in my experience.
"Instructors" aren't normally seen until kids are at least of high
school age and, more likely, of college age.
I don't think anyone mentioned playing games. I often have to ask
students to move the furniture around although when I did a stint of
janitor?) used to ask me in advance how I wanted my teaching room
arranged and had it ready when I arrived.
Yes, Americans call them janitors if they work in a building. They
call the man who serves you drinks and straightens your room on long
haul trains, porters. Traditionally, they are African-Americans, but
that may have changed in the past few years. The person at air and
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I believe
that holds for both AmE and BrE.
--
Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
LFS
2008-07-17 16:04:36 UTC
Permalink
Chuck Riggs wrote:

The person at air and
Post by Chuck Riggs
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I believe
that holds for both AmE and BrE.
Can't remember the last time I saw one of those.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Leslie Danks
2008-07-17 16:20:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Riggs
The person at air and
Post by Chuck Riggs
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I believe
that holds for both AmE and BrE.
Can't remember the last time I saw one of those.
Was it perhaps when you ended up in Crewe instead of Birmingham?
--
Les
LFS
2008-07-17 17:16:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Leslie Danks
Post by Chuck Riggs
The person at air and
Post by Chuck Riggs
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I believe
that holds for both AmE and BrE.
Can't remember the last time I saw one of those.
Was it perhaps when you ended up in Crewe instead of Birmingham?
If you're implying that I travel with a hatbox and pick up old gents on
trains, I'm deeply offended...
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Leslie Danks
2008-07-17 19:35:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
Post by Leslie Danks
Post by Chuck Riggs
The person at air and
Post by Chuck Riggs
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I
believe that holds for both AmE and BrE.
Can't remember the last time I saw one of those.
Was it perhaps when you ended up in Crewe instead of Birmingham?
If you're implying that I travel with a hatbox and pick up old gents on
trains, I'm deeply offended...
Whatever for? Hatboxes are classy -- and AUE is positively swarming with
old gents. Hmmm, I see what you mean.

<http://www.musicsmiles.com/oh_mr_porter!.htm>
--
Les
Old BrE gent
tony cooper
2008-07-17 19:25:24 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:04:36 +0100, LFS
Post by Chuck Riggs
The person at air and
Post by Chuck Riggs
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I believe
that holds for both AmE and BrE.
Can't remember the last time I saw one of those.
Quite commonly seen here. At the airport in Orlando there is curbside
checking. One can pull up to the curb in front of the appropriate
entrance for the airline and drop off one's baggage. An airline
employee* takes the baggage and checks it in.

This used to be a free service of the airline, and the employee
depended on the generosity of the passenger for any remuneration.
There is now a fee-per-bag, but the passengers are still encouraged to
be generous.

*I have no idea what they are called. I would hesitate to call them
"porter". My guess is that, if I did, my luggage would end up in some
remote destination. However, come to think of it, my luggage would
probably end up in some remote destination no matter how I addressed
the employee.

"Porter" has the connotation of being a derogatory term to describe a
black person in a menial position. Something like "shoe shine boy".

If you want to see how far we'll go in the US to take offense, see:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,380143,00.html
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Roland Hutchinson
2008-07-17 21:47:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:04:36 +0100, LFS
Post by Chuck Riggs
The person at air and
Post by Chuck Riggs
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I believe
that holds for both AmE and BrE.
Can't remember the last time I saw one of those.
Quite commonly seen here. At the airport in Orlando there is curbside
checking. One can pull up to the curb in front of the appropriate
entrance for the airline and drop off one's baggage. An airline
employee* takes the baggage and checks it in.
This used to be a free service of the airline, and the employee
depended on the generosity of the passenger for any remuneration.
There is now a fee-per-bag, but the passengers are still encouraged to
be generous.
*I have no idea what they are called. I would hesitate to call them
"porter". My guess is that, if I did, my luggage would end up in some
remote destination. However, come to think of it, my luggage would
probably end up in some remote destination no matter how I addressed
the employee.
"Porter" has the connotation of being a derogatory term to describe a
black person in a menial position. Something like "shoe shine boy".
I believe "Skycap" is the official term for a person authorized to assist
you with your bags (formed the analogy with "Redcap" which is the
corresponding term for someone performing the corresponding function at a
train station).

The folks who take your luggage in at curbside may not be Redcaps, though.
I don't know.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Roland Hutchinson
2008-07-17 21:59:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Hutchinson
I believe "Skycap" is the official term for a person authorized to assist
you with your bags (formed the analogy with "Redcap" which is the
corresponding term for someone performing the corresponding function at a
train station).
The folks who take your luggage in at curbside may not be Redcaps, though.
I meant may not be Skycaps, of course.

Somebody's law in action; I forget whose.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
CDB
2008-07-17 16:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Chuck Riggs wrote:

[one doesn't do windows]
Post by Chuck Riggs
Yes, Americans call them janitors if they work in a building. They
call the man who serves you drinks and straightens your room on long
haul trains, porters. Traditionally, they are African-Americans, but
that may have changed in the past few years. The person at air and
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I
believe that holds for both AmE and BrE.
That started me idly wondering if "porter" was from "porte" (door) or
"porter" (to carry). Apparently it's two words, or one word with two
origins, having both "portier" (doorkeeper) and "porteur" (carrier) as
ancestors. A lion's-den, like that other uncommonplace.
R H Draney
2008-07-17 19:13:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
[one doesn't do windows]
Post by Chuck Riggs
Yes, Americans call them janitors if they work in a building. They
call the man who serves you drinks and straightens your room on long
haul trains, porters. Traditionally, they are African-Americans, but
that may have changed in the past few years. The person at air and
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I
believe that holds for both AmE and BrE.
That started me idly wondering if "porter" was from "porte" (door) or
"porter" (to carry). Apparently it's two words, or one word with two
origins, having both "portier" (doorkeeper) and "porteur" (carrier) as
ancestors. A lion's-den, like that other uncommonplace.
"Janitor" indirectly refers to doors...it was one of Asimov's F&SF essays that
taught me the word refers to Janus, whose two faces symbolized, inter alia,
"doors in and doors out"...and further, that the month of January was both the
end of one year and the beginning of the next....r
--
Evelyn Wood just looks at the pictures.
CDB
2008-07-17 21:33:20 UTC
Permalink
R H Draney wrote:

[the porter was named Jock, and hung by the door]
Post by R H Draney
"Janitor" indirectly refers to doors...it was one of Asimov's F&SF
essays that taught me the word refers to Janus, whose two faces
symbolized, inter alia, "doors in and doors out"...and further,
that the month of January was both the end of one year and the
beginning of the next....r
I've always wondered why that was, since the new year seems to have
come in March (explaining why months 9-12 are called months 7-10).
Paul Wolff
2008-07-17 22:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
[the porter was named Jock, and hung by the door]
Post by R H Draney
"Janitor" indirectly refers to doors...it was one of Asimov's F&SF
essays that taught me the word refers to Janus, whose two faces
symbolized, inter alia, "doors in and doors out"...and further,
that the month of January was both the end of one year and the
beginning of the next....r
I've always wondered why that was, since the new year seems to have
come in March (explaining why months 9-12 are called months 7-10).
That was then. Rumour has it that King Romulus didn't find the winter
period between the tenth month and the first month worth dividing up any
further. But for any year that you want to know what really happened in
Rome, you can take the kalends of January to be the kick-off. As the
common year only had 355 days, an extra month was slotted in from time
to time. In reference to the old calendar, this happened after
Terminalia (23 February). Since the extra days of Interkalarius were
thought unlucky, they were suspended during the second Punic war, which
caused the times to go thoroughly out of joint. The date that the new
consuls took office was switched to the kalends of January in 153 BC,
which settled the matter.
--
Paul
CDB
2008-07-18 14:37:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by CDB
[the porter was named Jock, and hung by the door]
Post by R H Draney
"Janitor" indirectly refers to doors...it was one of Asimov's F&SF
essays that taught me the word refers to Janus, whose two faces
symbolized, inter alia, "doors in and doors out"...and further,
that the month of January was both the end of one year and the
beginning of the next....r
I've always wondered why that was, since the new year seems to have
come in March (explaining why months 9-12 are called months 7-10).
That was then. Rumour has it that King Romulus didn't find the
winter period between the tenth month and the first month worth
dividing up any further. But for any year that you want to know
what really happened in Rome, you can take the kalends of January
to be the kick-off. As the common year only had 355 days, an extra
month was slotted in from time to time. In reference to the old
calendar, this happened after Terminalia (23 February). Since the
extra days of Interkalarius were thought unlucky, they were
suspended during the second Punic war, which caused the times to go
thoroughly out of joint. The date that the new consuls took office
was switched to the kalends of January in 153 BC, which settled the
matter.
It's comforting to know that there is a reasonable explanation, but
I'm personally still confused. According to Wiki (pity me), "This
superstition [luck according to length of month] influenced the first
reform of the calendar, which was attributed to Numa Pompilius, the
second of the seven traditional Kings of Rome. He is said to have
added January and February to the end of the calendar around 713 BC."

So, at the time Janus was added to the calendar, unless Wiki is very
much mistaken, he wasn't anywhere near the door. I wonder if his
association with transitions instead influenced the setting of the
consular year (which appears to be the one they numbered, when they
did so) to begin with his month. This might gradually have become the
common New Year. Dunno. But it's OK. As Uncle Vinty always said,
one is hallucinating anyway.
Mike Lyle
2008-07-18 16:41:09 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by CDB
Post by Paul Wolff
That was then. Rumour has it that King Romulus didn't find the
winter period between the tenth month and the first month worth
dividing up any further. But for any year that you want to know
what really happened in Rome, you can take the kalends of January
to be the kick-off. As the common year only had 355 days, an extra
month was slotted in from time to time. In reference to the old
calendar, this happened after Terminalia (23 February). Since the
extra days of Interkalarius were thought unlucky, they were
suspended during the second Punic war, which caused the times to go
thoroughly out of joint. The date that the new consuls took office
was switched to the kalends of January in 153 BC, which settled the
matter.
It's comforting to know that there is a reasonable explanation, but
I'm personally still confused. According to Wiki (pity me), "This
superstition [luck according to length of month] influenced the first
reform of the calendar, which was attributed to Numa Pompilius, the
second of the seven traditional Kings of Rome. He is said to have
added January and February to the end of the calendar around 713 BC."
So, at the time Janus was added to the calendar, unless Wiki is very
much mistaken, he wasn't anywhere near the door. I wonder if his
association with transitions instead influenced the setting of the
consular year (which appears to be the one they numbered, when they
did so) to begin with his month. This might gradually have become the
common New Year. Dunno. But it's OK. As Uncle Vinty always said,
one is hallucinating anyway.
The 153 change wasn't gradual. The OCD suggests it was probably an early
bit of PC (my interpretation). "January, as containing the festival
/Januar/ (presumably the Agonium of later calendars, 9 January) of the
god of gates who was _on his way to be a god of all beginnings_ [my
emphasis], must have been intended to be the first month, but the
revolution which expelled the kings put a stop to this and March
remained the first month of the year until 153 BC."
--
Mike.
CDB
2008-07-18 17:12:33 UTC
Permalink
[missing dates]
Post by Mike Lyle
The 153 change wasn't gradual. The OCD suggests it was probably an
early bit of PC (my interpretation). "January, as containing the
festival /Januar/ (presumably the Agonium of later calendars, 9
January) of the god of gates who was _on his way to be a god of all
beginnings_ [my emphasis], must have been intended to be the first
month, but the revolution which expelled the kings put a stop to
this and March remained the first month of the year until 153 BC."
Thank you both. I think the itch is gone.
Paul Wolff
2008-07-18 19:41:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
[missing dates]
Post by Mike Lyle
The 153 change wasn't gradual. The OCD suggests it was probably an
early bit of PC (my interpretation). "January, as containing the
festival /Januar/ (presumably the Agonium of later calendars, 9
January) of the god of gates who was _on his way to be a god of all
beginnings_ [my emphasis], must have been intended to be the first
month, but the revolution which expelled the kings put a stop to
this and March remained the first month of the year until 153 BC."
Thank you both. I think the itch is gone.
Oops. I sent another scratching paper before reading this.
--
Paul
Mike Lyle
2008-07-18 20:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by CDB
[missing dates]
The 153 change wasn't gradual. [...]
Thank you both. I think the itch is gone.
Oops. I sent another scratching paper before reading this.
No need for an "Oops": you reminded us of Leofranc, A Character of
Characters.
--
Mike.
Paul Wolff
2008-07-18 19:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by CDB
[the porter was named Jock, and hung by the door]
Post by R H Draney
"Janitor" indirectly refers to doors...it was one of Asimov's F&SF
essays that taught me the word refers to Janus, whose two faces
symbolized, inter alia, "doors in and doors out"...and further,
that the month of January was both the end of one year and the
beginning of the next....r
I've always wondered why that was, since the new year seems to have
come in March (explaining why months 9-12 are called months 7-10).
That was then. Rumour has it that King Romulus didn't find the
winter period between the tenth month and the first month worth
dividing up any further. But for any year that you want to know
what really happened in Rome, you can take the kalends of January
to be the kick-off. As the common year only had 355 days, an extra
month was slotted in from time to time. In reference to the old
calendar, this happened after Terminalia (23 February). Since the
extra days of Interkalarius were thought unlucky, they were
suspended during the second Punic war, which caused the times to go
thoroughly out of joint. The date that the new consuls took office
was switched to the kalends of January in 153 BC, which settled the
matter.
It's comforting to know that there is a reasonable explanation, but
I'm personally still confused. According to Wiki (pity me), "This
superstition [luck according to length of month] influenced the first
reform of the calendar, which was attributed to Numa Pompilius, the
second of the seven traditional Kings of Rome. He is said to have
added January and February to the end of the calendar around 713 BC."
I don't know what Numa is said to have done, precisely. Months with odd
numbers of days were the lucky ones, so there were no 30-day months. The
four 31-day months had their Ides on the 15th day, the others (29-day
months, except February which had 28) on the 13th, the Ides marking a
division of the month (though slightly before the mid-point, again
possibly to do with choosing the odd number day as more auspicious,
though I don't see what might have militated against having the Ides on
the 15th throughout). Presumably that arrangement of months, with an
occasional intercalation, was Numa's reform.
Post by CDB
So, at the time Janus was added to the calendar, unless Wiki is very
much mistaken, he wasn't anywhere near the door. I wonder if his
association with transitions instead influenced the setting of the
consular year (which appears to be the one they numbered, when they
did so) to begin with his month.
My source (see below) says, on the first point, that there was a
tradition that March had been the first month, but that in historical
times it was always January, and "The Romans themselves were aware of
the contradiction"; and on the second point about the consular year,
that there was a military emergency, and the next years' consuls needed
to be sworn in urgently so that they could conduct a spring campaign.
They couldn't wait until the Ides of March, the traditional date, and if
the outgoing consuls had taken command in January the army would have
had to undergo a change of commanders in mid-campaign, I guess.
Post by CDB
This might gradually have become the
common New Year. Dunno. But it's OK. As Uncle Vinty always said,
one is hallucinating anyway.
A fairly substantial review of the topic is Robert Hannah's book on the
Greek and to a lesser extent Roman calendars, of which some flavour
here:
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2005/2005-10-04.html

My only recent book is Leofranc Holford-Strevens's History of Time (a
Very Short Introduction) and that is the source of much of my detail.
It also tells me such things as that the minute parts of the hour or day
were all sorts of fractions until mechanical clocks began to enable
small divisions to means something, and then sixtieths became standard.
The first order of minute parts were sixty to the hour, the second order
of minute parts were sixty to the first order, and the third order of
minute parts were sixty to the second order. A time of ten primae
minutae, thirty secundae minutae and twenty tertiae minutae [partes],
for example, would be written 10' 30'' 20''', as they still are (except
that we don't do thirds much).
--
Paul
CDB
2008-07-18 21:46:59 UTC
Permalink
[lucky Janus]
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by CDB
"This
superstition [luck according to length of month] influenced the
first reform of the calendar, which was attributed to Numa
Pompilius, the second of the seven traditional Kings of Rome. He
is said to have added January and February to the end of the
calendar around 713 BC."
I don't know what Numa is said to have done, precisely. Months
with odd numbers of days were the lucky ones, so there were no
30-day months. The four 31-day months had their Ides on the 15th
day, the others (29-day months, except February which had 28) on
the 13th, the Ides marking a division of the month (though slightly
before the mid-point, again possibly to do with choosing the odd
number day as more auspicious, though I don't see what might have
militated against having the Ides on the 15th throughout).
Presumably that arrangement of months, with an occasional
intercalation, was Numa's reform.
I have misled you. It is I who must say oops. I included the first,
introductory, sentence for completeness, but my point was merely that
January, when introduced, had not been put at the front of the line.
Mike's explanation resolved that problem, by suggesting that the
royals had intended to move it up but had been tossed too soon.
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by CDB
So, at the time Janus was added to the calendar, unless Wiki is
very much mistaken, he wasn't anywhere near the door. I wonder if
his association with transitions instead influenced the setting of
the consular year (which appears to be the one they numbered, when
they did so) to begin with his month.
My source (see below) says, on the first point, that there was a
tradition that March had been the first month, but that in
historical times it was always January, and "The Romans themselves
were aware of the contradiction"; and on the second point about the
consular year, that there was a military emergency, and the next
years' consuls needed to be sworn in urgently so that they could
conduct a spring campaign. They couldn't wait until the Ides of
March, the traditional date, and if the outgoing consuls had taken
command in January the army would have had to undergo a change of
commanders in mid-campaign, I guess.
All this makes excellent sense. If my mind grows much clearer, I will
be in danger of doing something socially useful with it.
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by CDB
This might gradually have become the
common New Year. Dunno. But it's OK. As Uncle Vinty always said,
one is hallucinating anyway.
No glad cries of recognition. Am I the only one who remembers Uncle,
even vaguely? Nothing left but tapes (and when I called TVO in 1987
to ask for another replay, they shirtily told me that the tape had
been destroyed, druggy) and a few chatroom exchanges ("Anyone remember
Uncle Vinty? His backup band included two guys who used to be in
Michael and the Messengers. Vinty put on quite a show. For one number,
"Alligator Wine", he wore a paper mache alligator head." " Yeah,
Vinty knew how to entertain. I believe he has passed on to the great
music club in the ether of our imagination.") It's OK.
Post by Paul Wolff
A fairly substantial review of the topic is Robert Hannah's book on
the Greek and to a lesser extent Roman calendars, of which some
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2005/2005-10-04.html
The Ottawa Public Library knows not of him, dammit.
Post by Paul Wolff
My only recent book is Leofranc Holford-Strevens's History of Time
(a Very Short Introduction) and that is the source of much of my
detail. It also tells me such things as that the minute parts of
the hour or day were all sorts of fractions until mechanical clocks
began to enable small divisions to means something, and then
sixtieths became standard. The first order of minute parts were
sixty to the hour, the second order of minute parts were sixty to
the first order, and the third order of minute parts were sixty to
the second order. A time of ten primae minutae, thirty secundae
minutae and twenty tertiae minutae [partes], for example, would be
written 10' 30'' 20''', as they still are (except that we don't do
thirds much).
Maybe if we had a word that means number three but doesn't specify a
fraction, along the lines of "second". Ten minutes, thirty seconds,
and twenty crowders. Come to think of it, twenty crowders is a third,
of a second. I've been whooshed!

The OPL doesn't have the _History_ either, at least not yet, so I have
consoled myself by putting H-S's _Oxford Companion to the Year_ on my
reserved list. Thank you for this patient and very helpful
explanation.
Paul Wolff
2008-07-18 23:02:47 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by CDB
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by CDB
As Uncle Vinty always said,
one is hallucinating anyway.
No glad cries of recognition. Am I the only one who remembers Uncle,
even vaguely? Nothing left but tapes (and when I called TVO in 1987
to ask for another replay, they shirtily told me that the tape had
been destroyed, druggy) and a few chatroom exchanges ("Anyone remember
Uncle Vinty? His backup band included two guys who used to be in
Michael and the Messengers. Vinty put on quite a show. For one number,
"Alligator Wine", he wore a paper mache alligator head." " Yeah,
Vinty knew how to entertain. I believe he has passed on to the great
music club in the ether of our imagination.") It's OK.
Post by Paul Wolff
A fairly substantial review of the topic is Robert Hannah's book on
the Greek and to a lesser extent Roman calendars, of which some
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2005/2005-10-04.html
The Ottawa Public Library knows not of him, dammit.
Post by Paul Wolff
My only recent book is Leofranc Holford-Strevens's History of Time
(a Very Short Introduction) and that is the source of much of my
detail. It also tells me such things as that the minute parts of
the hour or day were all sorts of fractions until mechanical clocks
began to enable small divisions to means something, and then
sixtieths became standard. The first order of minute parts were
sixty to the hour, the second order of minute parts were sixty to
the first order, and the third order of minute parts were sixty to
the second order. A time of ten primae minutae, thirty secundae
minutae and twenty tertiae minutae [partes], for example, would be
written 10' 30'' 20''', as they still are (except that we don't do
thirds much).
Maybe if we had a word that means number three but doesn't specify a
fraction, along the lines of "second". Ten minutes, thirty seconds,
and twenty crowders. Come to think of it, twenty crowders is a third,
of a second. I've been whooshed!
The OPL doesn't have the _History_ either, at least not yet, so I have
consoled myself by putting H-S's _Oxford Companion to the Year_ on my
reserved list. Thank you for this patient and very helpful
explanation.
A pleasure. Though Uncle Vinty passed me quietly by, ringing no bells.
--
Paul
Roland Hutchinson
2008-07-17 21:42:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
[one doesn't do windows]
No, one has people to do that sort of thing for one, doesn't one?
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
CDB
2008-07-18 14:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Hutchinson
Post by CDB
[one doesn't do windows]
No, one has people to do that sort of thing for one, doesn't one?
Quite. PUU. American porters, that sort of feller.
Evan Kirshenbaum
2008-07-17 21:44:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Riggs
Yes, Americans call them janitors if they work in a building. They
call the man who serves you drinks and straightens your room on long
haul trains, porters. Traditionally, they are African-Americans, but
that may have changed in the past few years. The person at air and
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I believe
that holds for both AmE and BrE.
The person who takes your bags at an airport, when this is done other
than at the main check-in counter, is called a "skycap" in my
experience. This is derived from the "redcaps" that did this at train
stations. (MWCD11 dates "skycap" to 1941 and "redcap" to 1918.) I
think I've only come across "porter" in this sense on cruise ships.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Now every hacker knows
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | That the secret to survivin'
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Is knowin' when the time is free
| And what's the load and queue
***@hpl.hp.com |'Cause everyone's a cruncher
(650)857-7572 | And everyone's a user
|And the best that you can hope for
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Is a crash when you're through
Pat Durkin
2008-07-17 21:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
Post by Chuck Riggs
Yes, Americans call them janitors if they work in a building. They
call the man who serves you drinks and straightens your room on long
haul trains, porters. Traditionally, they are African-Americans, but
that may have changed in the past few years. The person at air and
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I
believe that holds for both AmE and BrE.
The person who takes your bags at an airport, when this is done other
than at the main check-in counter, is called a "skycap" in my
experience. This is derived from the "redcaps" that did this at train
stations. (MWCD11 dates "skycap" to 1941 and "redcap" to 1918.) I
think I've only come across "porter" in this sense on cruise ships.
Right toe.
tony cooper
2008-07-17 22:04:00 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:44:29 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
Post by Chuck Riggs
Yes, Americans call them janitors if they work in a building. They
call the man who serves you drinks and straightens your room on long
haul trains, porters. Traditionally, they are African-Americans, but
that may have changed in the past few years. The person at air and
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I believe
that holds for both AmE and BrE.
The person who takes your bags at an airport, when this is done other
than at the main check-in counter, is called a "skycap" in my
experience. This is derived from the "redcaps" that did this at train
stations. (MWCD11 dates "skycap" to 1941 and "redcap" to 1918.) I
think I've only come across "porter" in this sense on cruise ships.
I mentioned that this service used to be free, but is now for-fee.
There's a lawsuit over that:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/25/AR2008042503467.html
Brought by the skycaps, not the passengers.

I suppose "skycap" is the correct term, but - damn - I am afraid to
use terms to describe functions. They go "out" so fast. Yesterday's
perfectly acceptable, commonly-used term is today's demeaning insult.

"Hey, you!" used to be considered to be rude. It may be rude, but
it's safe. (Unless you are trying to attract the attention of an
effeminate ram.)
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Richard Maurer
2008-07-18 02:15:32 UTC
Permalink
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
The person who takes your bags at an airport,
when this is done other than at the main
check-in counter, is called a "skycap" in my experience.
This is derived from the "redcaps" that did this at train
stations. (MWCD11 dates "skycap" to 1941 and "redcap"
to 1918.) I think I've only come across "porter"
in this sense on cruise ships.


I guess that you mean in recent years. There were plenty
of porters on trains in movies from the 40s and 50s.
And recently (2002?), from the Baltimore Sun:

He pulled a window open and began lowering other
passengers through it and into the arms of an
Amtrak porter outside.

<www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/showcase/
bal-te.md.derail30jul30,0,7161010.story?page=2>

There are other newspaper examples calling them
Amtrak porters, but that may not be their official
designation nowadays.

This page has a photo with a porter in a red cap.

Porter Alan deAngelis loads passengers' luggage
onto an Amtrak Acela Express train in Boston,
June 11, 2008. REUTERS/Brian Snyder


<http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:YY3RW7F1sZsJ:entertainment.yahoo.ca/
photo/11062008/6/photo/photos-n-usa-porter-alan-deangelis-
loads-passengers-luggage-amtrak-acela-express.html+amtrak
+porter&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=33&gl=us&ie=UTF-8>

-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
(Come and trip it as you go
On the light fantastic toe)
tony cooper
2008-07-18 02:49:02 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 02:15:32 GMT, "Richard Maurer"
Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
The person who takes your bags at an airport,
when this is done other than at the main
check-in counter, is called a "skycap" in my experience.
This is derived from the "redcaps" that did this at train
stations. (MWCD11 dates "skycap" to 1941 and "redcap"
to 1918.) I think I've only come across "porter"
in this sense on cruise ships.
I guess that you mean in recent years. There were plenty
of porters on trains in movies from the 40s and 50s.
He pulled a window open and began lowering other
passengers through it and into the arms of an
Amtrak porter outside.
The man who worked in the cars along the way was a porter. Porters
worked in the dining car, the bar car, and the sleepers. You never
called for a "redcap" to make up your bed or to bring you a drink. I
don't think these porters were ever called "redcaps". I don't
remember them ever wearing a cap, for that matter.

The redcaps worked in the station or on the platform and were there to
assist you with your luggage. Porters may have moved your luggage to
the door of the car or out to the platform, but the redcaps took over
from there.

That's the way I remember it, anyway.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Evan Kirshenbaum
2008-07-18 03:25:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 02:15:32 GMT, "Richard Maurer"
Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
The person who takes your bags at an airport, when this is done
other than at the main check-in counter, is called a "skycap" in
my experience. This is derived from the "redcaps" that did this
at train stations. (MWCD11 dates "skycap" to 1941 and "redcap"
to 1918.) I think I've only come across "porter" in this sense
on cruise ships.
I guess that you mean in recent years.
I actually meant in my personal experience. Which necessarily limits
it to relatively recent years.
Post by tony cooper
Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
There were plenty of porters on trains in movies from the 40s and
He pulled a window open and began lowering other
passengers through it and into the arms of an
Amtrak porter outside.
The man who worked in the cars along the way was a porter. Porters
worked in the dining car, the bar car, and the sleepers. You never
called for a "redcap" to make up your bed or to bring you a drink.
I don't think these porters were ever called "redcaps". I don't
remember them ever wearing a cap, for that matter.
My impression is that redcaps worked the stations, not the trains.
I've never (since I'm old enough to remember) taken a train trip of
more than a few hours, so I have no experience with train employees
other than conductors.
Post by tony cooper
The redcaps worked in the station or on the platform and were there
to assist you with your luggage. Porters may have moved your
luggage to the door of the car or out to the platform, but the
redcaps took over from there.
That's the way I remember it, anyway.
That sounds right to me, as I understand it from reading about it.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The body was wrapped in duct tape,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weighted down with concrete blocks
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and a telephone cord was tied
|around the neck. Police suspect
***@hpl.hp.com |foul play...
(650)857-7572

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
tony cooper
2008-07-18 04:39:05 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:25:12 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 02:15:32 GMT, "Richard Maurer"
Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
The person who takes your bags at an airport, when this is done
other than at the main check-in counter, is called a "skycap" in
my experience. This is derived from the "redcaps" that did this
at train stations. (MWCD11 dates "skycap" to 1941 and "redcap"
to 1918.) I think I've only come across "porter" in this sense
on cruise ships.
I guess that you mean in recent years.
I actually meant in my personal experience. Which necessarily limits
it to relatively recent years.
I've never (since I'm old enough to remember) taken a train trip of
more than a few hours, so I have no experience with train employees
other than conductors.
Advantage mine. I traveled twice from Chicago to Washington DC and
back by train, once from Chicago to Denver and back by train, and
several times from Indianapolis to Chicago and back.

Also, I traveled from Washington DC to Orlando in a private car
attached to Amtrack, but there was no porter service. The car was
owned by a personal friend of mine. The car was originally the
private car of the owner of the L&N railroad. Very nice.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Chuck Riggs
2008-07-18 15:35:37 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 00:39:05 -0400, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:25:12 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 02:15:32 GMT, "Richard Maurer"
Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
The person who takes your bags at an airport, when this is done
other than at the main check-in counter, is called a "skycap" in
my experience. This is derived from the "redcaps" that did this
at train stations. (MWCD11 dates "skycap" to 1941 and "redcap"
to 1918.) I think I've only come across "porter" in this sense
on cruise ships.
I guess that you mean in recent years.
I actually meant in my personal experience. Which necessarily limits
it to relatively recent years.
I've never (since I'm old enough to remember) taken a train trip of
more than a few hours, so I have no experience with train employees
other than conductors.
Advantage mine. I traveled twice from Chicago to Washington DC and
back by train, once from Chicago to Denver and back by train, and
several times from Indianapolis to Chicago and back.
I'll raise your advantage and trump your Chicago and DC. Starting from
age six months. when I travelled from Denver to New York with my
mother, I have travelled on all the major train routes that still
crisscross the country, plus a few that no longer do. My family and I
are, and were, fond of trains.
Post by tony cooper
Also, I traveled from Washington DC to Orlando in a private car
attached to Amtrack, but there was no porter service. The car was
owned by a personal friend of mine. The car was originally the
private car of the owner of the L&N railroad. Very nice.
It sounds it, but how does a "personal friend of mine" differ, in
English usage, from "a friend of mine".
--
Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
tony cooper
2008-07-18 15:48:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Riggs
It sounds it, but how does a "personal friend of mine" differ, in
English usage, from "a friend of mine".
I have several types of friends. I have personal friends, business
friends, neighbors who are friends, and friends through my wife. They
acquire the "friend" status because they are people who I feel
comfortable around, people who I can be casual around, and people who
I enjoy seeing.

In this case, the friend is a person I went to high school and college
with, so he falls in the "personal friend" group.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Chuck Riggs
2008-07-19 14:19:00 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:48:39 -0400, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
Post by Chuck Riggs
It sounds it, but how does a "personal friend of mine" differ, in
English usage, from "a friend of mine".
I have several types of friends. I have personal friends, business
friends, neighbors who are friends, and friends through my wife. They
acquire the "friend" status because they are people who I feel
comfortable around, people who I can be casual around, and people who
I enjoy seeing.
In this case, the friend is a person I went to high school and college
with, so he falls in the "personal friend" group.
Keeping four or more named categories of, uh, friends seems
complicated and unnecessary, especially if one additionally
pigeonholes one's associates, people one barely knows and one's
enemies into yet more named groups, anal-retentively adjusting all the
time for those who move up in rank or slip down in one's eyes or who
move from one group to another for one reason or another.
One outcome of your system is that, by human nature, people shift from
barely known to friend or associate to enemy and back, or maybe not,
and so on and so on as one gets to know them better. Whether one
records all this on paper or hard disk, a full time social secretary
appears to be a near-necessity, which, as I said at the start, is too
involved for my liking. That's why I recommend my simple system: there
are those people I enjoy the company of and those I don't.
--
Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
Steve Hayes
2008-07-18 07:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
The man who worked in the cars along the way was a porter. Porters
worked in the dining car, the bar car, and the sleepers. You never
called for a "redcap" to make up your bed or to bring you a drink. I
don't think these porters were ever called "redcaps". I don't
remember them ever wearing a cap, for that matter.
On South African Railways a porter never got on the train, but carried the
luggage to the luggage van at the rear of the train on a long two-wheeled
barrow. The ones on the train were called "bedding attendents".

I haven't seen the former since the semi-privatisation, when the railways
became "Transnet". But in the old days the porters were all white, and the
bedding attendants all coloured.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
The UnInmate
2008-07-18 10:51:49 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:49:02 -0400, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
The man who worked in the cars along the way was a porter. Porters
worked in the dining car, the bar car, and the sleepers. You never
called for a "redcap" to make up your bed or to bring you a drink. I
don't think these porters were ever called "redcaps". I don't
remember them ever wearing a cap, for that matter.
On South African Railways a porter never got on the train, but carried the
luggage to the luggage van at the rear of the train on a long two-wheeled
barrow. The ones on the train were called "bedding attendents".
Sorry, is "attendent" a South African variant spelling or just a typo?
Steve Hayes
2008-07-18 11:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by The UnInmate
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:49:02 -0400, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
The man who worked in the cars along the way was a porter. Porters
worked in the dining car, the bar car, and the sleepers. You never
called for a "redcap" to make up your bed or to bring you a drink. I
don't think these porters were ever called "redcaps". I don't
remember them ever wearing a cap, for that matter.
On South African Railways a porter never got on the train, but carried the
luggage to the luggage van at the rear of the train on a long two-wheeled
barrow. The ones on the train were called "bedding attendents".
Sorry, is "attendent" a South African variant spelling or just a typo?
a typo
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Chuck Riggs
2008-07-18 15:06:58 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 22:49:02 -0400, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 02:15:32 GMT, "Richard Maurer"
Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
The person who takes your bags at an airport,
when this is done other than at the main
check-in counter, is called a "skycap" in my experience.
This is derived from the "redcaps" that did this at train
stations. (MWCD11 dates "skycap" to 1941 and "redcap"
to 1918.) I think I've only come across "porter"
in this sense on cruise ships.
I guess that you mean in recent years. There were plenty
of porters on trains in movies from the 40s and 50s.
He pulled a window open and began lowering other
passengers through it and into the arms of an
Amtrak porter outside.
The man who worked in the cars along the way was a porter. Porters
worked in the dining car, the bar car, and the sleepers. You never
called for a "redcap" to make up your bed or to bring you a drink. I
don't think these porters were ever called "redcaps". I don't
remember them ever wearing a cap, for that matter.
Yes, that is the way it used to be.
Post by tony cooper
The redcaps worked in the station or on the platform and were there to
assist you with your luggage. Porters may have moved your luggage to
the door of the car or out to the platform, but the redcaps took over
from there.
That's the way I remember it, anyway.
As I remember it, the porters remained on the train. Redcaps were on
the platforms.
--
Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
Chuck Riggs
2008-07-18 15:03:04 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:44:29 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
Post by Chuck Riggs
Yes, Americans call them janitors if they work in a building. They
call the man who serves you drinks and straightens your room on long
haul trains, porters. Traditionally, they are African-Americans, but
that may have changed in the past few years. The person at air and
train terminals who takes your bags is also called a porter. I believe
that holds for both AmE and BrE.
The person who takes your bags at an airport, when this is done other
than at the main check-in counter, is called a "skycap" in my
experience. This is derived from the "redcaps" that did this at train
stations. (MWCD11 dates "skycap" to 1941 and "redcap" to 1918.) I
think I've only come across "porter" in this sense on cruise ships.
I'm older.
--
Regards,

Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
Amethyst Deceiver
2008-07-17 11:29:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chuck Riggs
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 09:00:18 -0400, tony cooper
Post by tony cooper
On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:31:05 -0400, "The UnInmate"
Post by The UnInmate
What's the term for a classroom structured so that small desks are laid out
in a circle and the instructor sits at one of the small desks on the
perimeter, with essentially nothing inside the circle?
Is there a term at all? Does there need to be a term for this? The
arrangement is usually accomplished by the instructor saying "Move
your desks (chairs) into a circle."
When an instructor is in charge of students so young they're playing
games with chairs, she is called a "teacher", in my experience.
"Instructors" aren't normally seen until kids are at least of high
school age and, more likely, of college age.
When were you last in education, Chuck? For a start, no-one mentioned
games. Secondly, here in my university it's not at all uncommon for
teaching to move, in the course of one lecture, from sitting in rows
facing the front, to sitting in groups, to sitting in a circle, all of
which involves moving chairs around.
--
Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary
tony cooper
2008-07-11 20:37:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Googling shows that it's primarily a phrase used in the UK to mean a
room used for small meetings. In the US, it would be called a
"conference room".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
the Omrud
2008-07-11 22:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Googling shows that it's primarily a phrase used in the UK to mean a
room used for small meetings. In the US, it would be called a
"conference room".
It has a very specific meaning in UK business-speak. It's a room used
for a sub-group of a meeting or (more commonly) a training course where
some of the work needs to be done in groups. There will be a main
meeting room, and maybe three or four syndicate rooms to which the
participants will be allocated for small-group work.

The room is only a "syndicate room" while it's being used for this
purpose. At other times it's just a meeting room. We have many dozens
of meeting rooms around my company's offices but you would get blank
stares if you asked to be shown to "a syndicate room". And although the
room tends to be smaller than the main conference room, that is not a
defining characteristic - it's perfectly possible to retire to a
syndicate room which is bigger than the room you came from.
--
David
John Dean
2008-07-11 22:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by tony cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Googling shows that it's primarily a phrase used in the UK to mean a
room used for small meetings. In the US, it would be called a
"conference room".
It has a very specific meaning in UK business-speak. It's a room used
for a sub-group of a meeting or (more commonly) a training course
where some of the work needs to be done in groups.
And, traditionally, these sub-groups are referred to as 'syndicates' which
is how the rooms got their name. I always encountered its use in the context
of training courses. It may be the usage is widening.

OED Additions:

"syndicate, n. Senses 3 b, c in Dict. become 3 c, d. Add: [3.] b. Any of a
number of sub-groups into which participants on a training course are
divided, esp. to tackle a particular assignment. Freq. attrib. orig. Mil.
1926 G. W. Gwynn in Publ. Rec. Office Doc. WO 32/4840 The allotment of
work in syndicates and in individual work will be based on the confidential
classification. 1952 Army Q. LXV. 51 A feature of the course in my day [sc.
1930] was the foreign tour, when we went abroad in small syndicates to study
some overseas campaign or battle. 1965 B. Sweet-Escott Baker St. Irreg. vi.
179 The course ended by our being divided into two syndicates. Each of
them+was then told to get into Stodham House without being discovered by the
sentries. 1970 P. Laurie Scotland Yard ii. 53 They are selected by a
three-day civil service board+where candidates, in small syndicate groups,
debate current affairs. 1984 D. Clark Bouquet Garni i. 28 He was in my
syndicate. Led it, in fact+. At the [Police] College the instructors rated
him as being good at delegation."
--
John Dean
Oxford
Roland Hutchinson
2008-07-12 00:11:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dean
Post by the Omrud
Post by tony cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Googling shows that it's primarily a phrase used in the UK to mean a
room used for small meetings. In the US, it would be called a
"conference room".
It has a very specific meaning in UK business-speak. It's a room used
for a sub-group of a meeting or (more commonly) a training course
where some of the work needs to be done in groups.
And, traditionally, these sub-groups are referred to as 'syndicates' which
is how the rooms got their name. I always encountered its use in the
context of training courses. It may be the usage is widening.
I am casting about for an AmE equivalent. The syndicates at a training
session might be "break out groups". Do we say "break-out room"?

I'm not really fluent in business-speak.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
tony cooper
2008-07-12 02:10:52 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:11:49 -0400, Roland Hutchinson
Post by Roland Hutchinson
Post by John Dean
Post by the Omrud
Post by tony cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Googling shows that it's primarily a phrase used in the UK to mean a
room used for small meetings. In the US, it would be called a
"conference room".
It has a very specific meaning in UK business-speak. It's a room used
for a sub-group of a meeting or (more commonly) a training course
where some of the work needs to be done in groups.
And, traditionally, these sub-groups are referred to as 'syndicates' which
is how the rooms got their name. I always encountered its use in the
context of training courses. It may be the usage is widening.
I am casting about for an AmE equivalent. The syndicates at a training
session might be "break out groups". Do we say "break-out room"?
I'm not really fluent in business-speak.
We do use the term "break out group", but - in my experience - not
"break out rooms", and I've attended many business meetings,
conferences, and training sessions. American hotels and conference
centers seem to all have names for the meeting rooms....Palm Room,
Hibiscus Room, Washington Room, etc. They generally follow some
pattern of naming.

When the group is broken up into smaller groups, the group members are
told to go to the "Palm Room". If the "Palm Room" has been divided
into several small rooms by moveable dividers, the group might go to
Palm Room B.

Here's a floor plan of a typical hotel conference room facility:
http://www.marriott.com/hotels/event-planning/floor-plans/mcora-renaissance-orlando-hotel-airport/
The room name pattern here is European cities. You'll notice the
Milan room is dividable into four rooms, but could be one, two, or
three rooms.

However, businesses are getting more international and American
businessmen love to show they are "with it" and continually adopt new
terms. It wouldn't surprise me that we now have syndicates and
syndicate rooms, but I haven't heard of either term here.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jonathan Morton
2008-07-12 06:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
Post by Roland Hutchinson
I am casting about for an AmE equivalent. The syndicates at a training
session might be "break out groups". Do we say "break-out room"?
I'm not really fluent in business-speak.
We do use the term "break out group", but - in my experience - not
"break out rooms", and I've attended many business meetings,
conferences, and training sessions.
At the risk of throwing a spanner in the works, I would say that BrE usage
is the same - I've certainly never come across a syndicate at any of these
training sessions.

That said, I find "break out" puts me in mind of a WW2 escape committee,
which is generally appropriate for these ghastly events.

Regards

Jonathan
TsuiDF
2008-07-12 10:38:37 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 12, 8:46 am, "Jonathan Morton"
Post by Jonathan Morton
Post by tony cooper
I am casting about for an AmE equivalent.  The syndicates at a training
session might be "break out groups".  Do we say "break-out room"?
I'm not really fluent in business-speak.
We do use the term "break out group", but - in my experience - not
"break out rooms", and I've attended many business meetings,
conferences, and training sessions.
At the risk of throwing a spanner in the works, I would say that BrE usage
is the same - I've certainly never come across a syndicate at any of these
training sessions.
That said, I find "break out" puts me in mind of a WW2 escape committee,
which is generally appropriate for these ghastly events.
When planning and participating in conferences over a fairly wide
spread geographic range (SE Asia, Europe, North America), I've
certainly encountered the usage 'break out rooms' but I couldn't
readily say which sort of E usage that is. Hotel conference booking-
ese, perhaps? I would have thought it was American but some of those
here purport not to have come across it, which I find moderately
surprising.

They are usually ghastly events, though.

What has struck me recently, in desperate searching for meeting
facilities, is how many sorts of arrangements there can be, and how
many of them can be hugely unsuitable for whatever it is you are
completely reasonably trying to do with that particular meeting.
Tables that can't be moved, sight lines that don't facilitate group
discussions, dim lighting, difficulty of getting everyone in the room
with useful working space, need to see presentations or work on
whiteboards or similar -- honestly, it's practically rocket science by
the time you're done. Not to mention whether the people bringing
coffee, tea, and water, know when and where and how they're supposed
to do that.

It's not been an exhausting week, though, don't think that.

cheers,
Stephanie
in Brussels
LFS
2008-07-12 10:50:25 UTC
Permalink
On Jul 12, 8:46 am, "Jonathan Morton"
Post by Jonathan Morton
Post by tony cooper
Post by Roland Hutchinson
I am casting about for an AmE equivalent. The syndicates at a training
session might be "break out groups". Do we say "break-out room"?
I'm not really fluent in business-speak.
We do use the term "break out group", but - in my experience - not
"break out rooms", and I've attended many business meetings,
conferences, and training sessions.
At the risk of throwing a spanner in the works, I would say that BrE usage
is the same - I've certainly never come across a syndicate at any of these
training sessions.
That said, I find "break out" puts me in mind of a WW2 escape committee,
which is generally appropriate for these ghastly events.
When planning and participating in conferences over a fairly wide
spread geographic range (SE Asia, Europe, North America), I've
certainly encountered the usage 'break out rooms' but I couldn't
readily say which sort of E usage that is. Hotel conference booking-
ese, perhaps? I would have thought it was American but some of those
here purport not to have come across it, which I find moderately
surprising.
Probably depends whether you are in the habit of attending events such
as these. I hear it quite often. Unfortunately.
They are usually ghastly events, though.
How very true. And on the rare occasions when they're held in nice
places I find myself looking longingly at the gardens outside that I
won't have a chance to explore.
What has struck me recently, in desperate searching for meeting
facilities, is how many sorts of arrangements there can be, and how
many of them can be hugely unsuitable for whatever it is you are
completely reasonably trying to do with that particular meeting.
Tables that can't be moved, sight lines that don't facilitate group
discussions, dim lighting, difficulty of getting everyone in the room
with useful working space, need to see presentations or work on
whiteboards or similar -- honestly, it's practically rocket science by
the time you're done. Not to mention whether the people bringing
coffee, tea, and water, know when and where and how they're supposed
to do that.
Having organised such events myself, I know how much on-the-hoof
problem-solving is involved and I always make a point of thanking
whoever has been in charge of the practical arrangements. Daughter did
it professionally for a time: even the unbelievably well-organised, as
she is, find it stressful.
It's not been an exhausting week, though, don't think that.
I would have swapped yours for mine...
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
John Dean
2008-07-12 16:37:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:11:49 -0400, Roland Hutchinson
Post by Roland Hutchinson
Post by John Dean
Post by the Omrud
Post by tony cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels
saying e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people
boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a
special meaning, I wonder.
Googling shows that it's primarily a phrase used in the UK to
mean a room used for small meetings. In the US, it would be
called a "conference room".
It has a very specific meaning in UK business-speak. It's a room
used for a sub-group of a meeting or (more commonly) a training
course where some of the work needs to be done in groups.
And, traditionally, these sub-groups are referred to as
'syndicates' which is how the rooms got their name. I always
encountered its use in the context of training courses. It may be
the usage is widening.
I am casting about for an AmE equivalent. The syndicates at a
training session might be "break out groups". Do we say "break-out
room"?
I'm not really fluent in business-speak.
We do use the term "break out group", but - in my experience - not
"break out rooms", and I've attended many business meetings,
conferences, and training sessions. American hotels and conference
centers seem to all have names for the meeting rooms....Palm Room,
Hibiscus Room, Washington Room, etc. They generally follow some
pattern of naming.
When the group is broken up into smaller groups, the group members are
told to go to the "Palm Room". If the "Palm Room" has been divided
into several small rooms by moveable dividers, the group might go to
Palm Room B.
http://www.marriott.com/hotels/event-planning/floor-plans/mcora-renaissance-orlando-hotel-airport/
The room name pattern here is European cities. You'll notice the
Milan room is dividable into four rooms, but could be one, two, or
three rooms.
However, businesses are getting more international and American
businessmen love to show they are "with it" and continually adopt new
terms. It wouldn't surprise me that we now have syndicates and
syndicate rooms, but I haven't heard of either term here.
Then they'll also wish to take on the common "syndicate exercise" meaning an
activity for a sub-group on a training course whereby they consider a
particular problem and report back to the main body.
--
John Dean
Oxford
Steve Hayes
2008-07-12 04:28:39 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 20:11:49 -0400, Roland Hutchinson
Post by Roland Hutchinson
Post by John Dean
Post by the Omrud
Post by tony cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Googling shows that it's primarily a phrase used in the UK to mean a
room used for small meetings. In the US, it would be called a
"conference room".
It has a very specific meaning in UK business-speak. It's a room used
for a sub-group of a meeting or (more commonly) a training course
where some of the work needs to be done in groups.
And, traditionally, these sub-groups are referred to as 'syndicates' which
is how the rooms got their name. I always encountered its use in the
context of training courses. It may be the usage is widening.
I am casting about for an AmE equivalent. The syndicates at a training
session might be "break out groups". Do we say "break-out room"?
I'm not really fluent in business-speak.
I 2002 there was a big international conference on Sustainable something or
other in Johannesburg.

Their literature mentioned "breakaway rooms"

I would have just called them "groop discussion venues".
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
the Omrud
2008-07-12 09:22:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Hutchinson
Post by John Dean
Post by the Omrud
Post by tony cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Googling shows that it's primarily a phrase used in the UK to mean a
room used for small meetings. In the US, it would be called a
"conference room".
It has a very specific meaning in UK business-speak. It's a room used
for a sub-group of a meeting or (more commonly) a training course
where some of the work needs to be done in groups.
And, traditionally, these sub-groups are referred to as 'syndicates' which
is how the rooms got their name. I always encountered its use in the
context of training courses. It may be the usage is widening.
I am casting about for an AmE equivalent. The syndicates at a training
session might be "break out groups". Do we say "break-out room"?
I'm not really fluent in business-speak.
After posting, I realised I should have commented on "break-out room",
which is also used in UK.
--
David
Paul Wolff
2008-07-12 18:50:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Roland Hutchinson
Post by John Dean
Post by the Omrud
Post by tony cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Googling shows that it's primarily a phrase used in the UK to mean a
room used for small meetings. In the US, it would be called a
"conference room".
It has a very specific meaning in UK business-speak. It's a room used
for a sub-group of a meeting or (more commonly) a training course
where some of the work needs to be done in groups.
And, traditionally, these sub-groups are referred to as 'syndicates' which
is how the rooms got their name. I always encountered its use in the
context of training courses. It may be the usage is widening.
I am casting about for an AmE equivalent. The syndicates at a training
session might be "break out groups". Do we say "break-out room"?
I'm not really fluent in business-speak.
This from the pre-meeting blurb of this year's annual conference of the
International Trademark Association:

"The cross-discipline focus provides programming on ethics,
advertising, patents, copyrights, bankruptcy and structuring IP
ownership. A full complement of Industry Breakout Sessions is
scheduled with a cross-discipline focus on regulatory and
trademark issues relating to the alcohol, pharmaceuticals,
financial, cosmetics, food and apparel industries."

Details from the program:

IM01 – Cross-Border Labeling and Related Requirements: Consumer
Products Industry Breakout
MONDAY, MAY 19, 10:15 a.m. – 11:30 a.m.

IM02 – Potholes in the Road to Global Marketing and Advertising:
Alcohol Industry Breakout
MONDAY, MAY 19, 11:45 a.m. – 1:00 p.m.

IT01 – Sarbanes - Oxley – It’s No Longer Just for Corporate
Lawyers: Financial Services Breakout
TUESDAY, MAY 20, 10:15 a.m. – 11:30 a.m.

IT02 – Pharmaceuticals Industry Breakout: Clearance in a Regulatory
Industry
TUESDAY, MAY 20, 11:45 a.m. – 1:00 p.m.

These aren't the same as syndicates. They are more special interest
groups, and they will have been structured as talks from selected
speakers followed by questions.
--
Paul
Marius Hancu
2008-07-17 22:57:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Dean
b. Any of a
number of sub-groups into which participants on a training course are
divided, esp. to tackle a particular assignment. Freq. attrib. orig. Mil.
Interesting!

Marius Hancu
LFS
2008-07-12 08:15:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by tony cooper
Post by h***@gmail.com
If you look at Google you can find several offers in hotels saying
e.g. "a syndicate room can cater for up to 8 people boardroom style"
May it mean just a smaller conference room or does it have a special
meaning, I wonder.
Googling shows that it's primarily a phrase used in the UK to mean a
room used for small meetings. In the US, it would be called a
"conference room".
We call the small meeting rooms in our main business school building
syndicate rooms because they were designed for MBA students to work
separately in thesyndicate groups into which the full cohort gets
divided. I've never encountered the term anywhere else.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
the Omrud
2008-07-12 09:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by LFS
We call the small meeting rooms in our main business school building
syndicate rooms because they were designed for MBA students to work
separately in thesyndicate groups into which the full cohort gets
divided. I've never encountered the term anywhere else.
OT: Happy New Chancellor to you. Do you get to meet her?
--
David
LFS
2008-07-12 10:28:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by LFS
We call the small meeting rooms in our main business school building
syndicate rooms because they were designed for MBA students to work
separately in thesyndicate groups into which the full cohort gets
divided. I've never encountered the term anywhere else.
OT: Happy New Chancellor to you. Do you get to meet her?
I could have done so yesterday but I declined the invitation for various
reasons. If she's as hands on as her predecessor, Jon Snow (who was
quite, quite brilliant as chancellor and a really nice bloke too) she'll
be about the place quite a bit. My heart sank rather when her
appointment was announced at the same time as her connection with the MP
whose name escapes me for the moment who just got re-elected. One never
knows if we might be hitched to a scandal. We were very nearly Robert
Maxwell University, after all.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Ian Noble
2008-07-12 17:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Native English speakers please help. What exactly is a syndicate room
in an office building ?
Thanx for helping me out.
Seems to be common terminology in the UK at least. I've attended
quite a number of business courses in my time where the main education
has taken place in one large room, and the attendees split up into
groups for specific activities and allocated smaller "syndicate rooms"
in which to work within their groups.

In my experience at least, the term has been specific to training and
conference centres; in a working office they'd be called "conference
rooms", "meeting rooms" or similar.

Cheers - Ian
Ian Noble
2008-07-12 17:52:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:43:00 +0100, Ian Noble
Post by Ian Noble
Post by h***@gmail.com
Native English speakers please help. What exactly is a syndicate room
in an office building ?
Thanx for helping me out.
Seems to be common terminology in the UK at least. I've attended
quite a number of business courses in my time where the main education
has taken place in one large room, and the attendees split up into
groups for specific activities and allocated smaller "syndicate rooms"
in which to work within their groups.
In my experience at least, the term has been specific to training and
conference centres; in a working office they'd be called "conference
rooms", "meeting rooms" or similar.
Lots of other answers already saying the above. My apologies.

Cheers - Ian
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