Saqiyah in English

Post by jerryfriedman
Is there a term you'd use when speaking English to mean
this ancient device?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqiyah

To judge from the picture it corresponds to what I would have called a
shaduf before reading the article. I saw them in the 1960s in what used
to be Yugoslavia -- probably Bosnia, Serbia or Macedonia. The article
claims that a shaduf is less efficient than a saqiyah, but I'm a bit
sceptical about that.

Post by jerryfriedman
Would you have recognized any of the terms in the article
before reading it?

Apart from shaduf, no.

Post by jerryfriedman
(I'm translating a poem whose title is the Spanish name
of the device.)

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Aidan Kehoe

2024-10-06 19:07:42 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
Is there a term you'd use when speaking English to mean
this ancient device?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqiyah

To judge from the picture it corresponds to what I would have called a shaduf
before reading the article. I saw them in the 1960s in what used to be
Yugoslavia -- probably Bosnia, Serbia or Macedonia. The article claims that a
shaduf is less efficient than a saqiyah, but I'm a bit sceptical about that.

Post by jerryfriedman
Would you have recognized any of the terms in the article
before reading it?

Apart from shaduf, no.

Post by jerryfriedman
(I'm translating a poem whose title is the Spanish name
of the device.)

I didn’t know the word shaduf and I hadn’t come across any of the other words in
the article. If the fact that the device is animal-powered is not important I
would consider “scoop wheel” for your purposes, which is at least a fairly
transparent term.

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

jerryfriedman

2024-10-07 04:28:22 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
Is there a term you'd use when speaking English to mean
this ancient device?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqiyah

To judge from the picture it corresponds to what I would have called

a shaduf

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
before reading the article. I saw them in the 1960s in what used to

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Yugoslavia -- probably Bosnia, Serbia or Macedonia. The article

claims that a

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
shaduf is less efficient than a saqiyah, but I'm a bit sceptical

about that.

Post by jerryfriedman
Would you have recognized any of the terms in the article
before reading it?

Apart from shaduf, no.

Post by jerryfriedman
(I'm translating a poem whose title is the Spanish name
of the device.)

Thanks. The title doesn't need to imply that the
device is driven by a "Poor old mule!" since she's
prominently featured in the poem.

"Scoop wheel" is certainly worth considering.
Some of these gizmos have buckets on chains that
can drop into deep wells, but the poem repeatedly
mentions the sound of the chains, so maybe a scoop
wheel (which I'd never heard of) would be quite
congruous.

Most translators seem to punt (as we say in my
country) and call it a waterwheel, which made me
wonder what the mule was doing.

--
Jerry Friedman

Ross Clark

2024-10-07 09:17:28 UTC

>
> > Is there a term you'd use when speaking English to mean
> > this ancient device?
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqiyah
>
> To judge from the picture it corresponds to what I would have called
a shaduf
> before reading the article. I saw them in the 1960s in what used to
be
> Yugoslavia -- probably Bosnia, Serbia or Macedonia. The article
claims that a
> shaduf is less efficient than a saqiyah, but I'm a bit sceptical
about that.
> >
> > Would you have recognized any of the terms in the article
> > before reading it?
>
> Apart from shaduf, no.
> >
> > (I'm translating a poem whose title is the Spanish name
> > of the device.)
I didn’t know the word shaduf and I hadn’t come across any of the other words in
the article. If the fact that the device is animal-powered is not important I
would consider “scoop wheel” for your purposes, which is at least a fairly
transparent term.

Thanks. The title doesn't need to imply that the
device is driven by a "Poor old mule!" since she's
prominently featured in the poem.
"Scoop wheel" is certainly worth considering.
Some of these gizmos have buckets on chains that
can drop into deep wells, but the poem repeatedly
mentions the sound of the chains, so maybe a scoop
wheel (which I'd never heard of) would be quite
congruous.
Most translators seem to punt (as we say in my
country) and call it a waterwheel, which made me
wonder what the mule was doing.
--
Jerry Friedman

What is implied by "punt"?

The moment you raised this question, I was reminded of "Escalay - The
Water Wheel", title of a composition (and an early album) by Hamza El
Din. "Escalay" turns out to be Nubian for this device; one source says
it literally means "throw water".

Wikipedia seems to want to restrict "water-wheel" to those that are
driven by flowing or falling water to power mills etc. But why should it
not equally apply to those which use human or animal power to raise water?

OED supports this:

1. A wheel driven by water and used to power machinery, esp. that of a
mill or pump. (12 citations 1408-.)

2. A wheel for raising water, esp. for irrigation, by means of buckets
fitted on its circumference. (9 citations 1591-)

(and just for completeness)
3. A paddle wheel on a boat or ship. Now rare. (5 citations 1787-)

Snidely

2024-10-07 12:09:59 UTC

Thanks. The title doesn't need to imply that the
device is driven by a "Poor old mule!" since she's
prominently featured in the poem.
"Scoop wheel" is certainly worth considering.
Some of these gizmos have buckets on chains that
can drop into deep wells, but the poem repeatedly
mentions the sound of the chains, so maybe a scoop
wheel (which I'd never heard of) would be quite
congruous.
Most translators seem to punt (as we say in my
country) and call it a waterwheel, which made me
wonder what the mule was doing.
-- Jerry Friedman

What is implied by "punt"?

Give up on trying to be productive [in choosing a term]. Instead of
referring to a small boat for quiet waters, Jerry is referring to the
American football practice of using a kick on 4th down to force the
opponent to start their offense further away from the goal line. The
alternative is try to run a productive play but risk being stopped and
turning the ball over where the play is started from.

Post by Ross Clark
The moment you raised this question, I was reminded of "Escalay - The Water
Wheel", title of a composition (and an early album) by Hamza El Din.
"Escalay" turns out to be Nubian for this device; one source says it
literally means "throw water".
Wikipedia seems to want to restrict "water-wheel" to those that are driven by
flowing or falling water to power mills etc. But why should it not equally
apply to those which use human or animal power to raise water?
1. A wheel driven by water and used to power machinery, esp. that of a mill
or pump. (12 citations 1408-.)
2. A wheel for raising water, esp. for irrigation, by means of buckets fitted
on its circumference. (9 citations 1591-)
(and just for completeness)
3. A paddle wheel on a boat or ship. Now rare. (5 citations 1787-)

I'd be interested in what distinction the relevant engineering folk
might make between a water-powered water wheel and other water-moving
devices. I'm not sure we can track down a text book quickly.

/dps

--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15

occam

2024-10-07 13:29:56 UTC

<snip>

Post by jerryfriedman
Most translators seem to punt (as we say in my
country) and call it a waterwheel, which made me
wonder what the mule was doing.
-- Jerry Friedman

What is implied by "punt"?

Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a gamble'
in colloquial BrE.

I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did not have
that in its list.

LionelEdwards

2024-10-07 14:26:40 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

Post by jerryfriedman
Most translators seem to punt (as we say in my
country) and call it a waterwheel, which made me
wonder what the mule was doing.
-- Jerry Friedman

What is implied by "punt"?

Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a gamble'
in colloquial BrE.
I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did not have
that in its list.

Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late
majesty would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she
would have noticed the Rugby Union connection.

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-07 15:57:37 UTC

Post by occam
Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a gamble'
in colloquial BrE.
I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did not have
that in its list.

Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late
majesty would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she
would have noticed the Rugby Union connection.

If she read "Peanuts", she would have known what the mad punter was.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Rich Ulrich

2024-10-07 22:05:26 UTC

On Mon, 7 Oct 2024 17:57:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by occam
Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a gamble'
in colloquial BrE.
I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did not have
that in its list.

Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late
majesty would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she
would have noticed the Rugby Union connection.

If she read "Peanuts", she would have known what the mad punter was.

- ah - if you refer to the famous sequence where Lucy
pulls away the ball and Charlie falls for it, year after year:
THAT was not a punt, but was in the style of a field goal
or an extra point (after touchdown). For either attempt to
score, when it happens in play, the ball is hiked back to the
holder who sets it down quickly and the kicker gets off his
kick before "rushers" can get close enough to block the
kick.

- This kicker, who also does kick-offs (at the start of the
game and after a TD or field goal is scored) is almost
never the same person as the punter (except in high
school football). For the "kick-offs", the ball is placed
on a tee and he does not face a "rush".

The football punter typicallly does only that. He stands
~10 years (?) behind the line of scrimmage; the long-
hiker (sometimes a specialist, not the regular center)
hikes him the ball; he catches it, takes two or three
steps and drops the ball to kick it high and deep.

It used to be that punters faced with a 'short field'
would aim for the 'coffin corner' in hopes that the ball
would bounce out of bounds (say, inside the 10 or the
5 yard line) because if it goes into the end zone, the
referees will bring it out to the 20. Nowadays, the
downfield coverage will try to 'down' a ball ('kill' it) deep,
which occasionally works. I don't think I've seen a
coffin corner kick in years, so maybe the statisticians
figured out that the gamble wasn't a good one (shanked
kick? too many good returns?).

--
Rich Ulrich

Tony Cooper

2024-10-07 23:51:47 UTC

On Mon, 07 Oct 2024 18:05:26 -0400, Rich Ulrich

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 7 Oct 2024 17:57:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by occam
Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a gamble'
in colloquial BrE.
I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did not have
that in its list.

Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late
majesty would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she
would have noticed the Rugby Union connection.

If she read "Peanuts", she would have known what the mad punter was.

- ah - if you refer to the famous sequence where Lucy
THAT was not a punt, but was in the style of a field goal
or an extra point (after touchdown). For either attempt to
score, when it happens in play, the ball is hiked back to the
holder who sets it down quickly and the kicker gets off his
kick before "rushers" can get close enough to block the
kick.
- This kicker, who also does kick-offs (at the start of the
game and after a TD or field goal is scored) is almost
never the same person as the punter (except in high
school football). For the "kick-offs", the ball is placed
on a tee and he does not face a "rush".
The football punter typicallly does only that. He stands
~10 years (?) behind the line of scrimmage; the long-
hiker (sometimes a specialist, not the regular center)

That player is usually referred to as "the long snapper".

Joe Cardona, the long snapper for the New England Patriots, is paid
about $ 1.5 million a year. Luke Rhodes, the long snapper for the
Indianapolis Colts, had to manage on about $1.2 million a year, but he
was given a $6.465 million four-year contract extension in 2023.

Post by Rich Ulrich
hikes him the ball; he catches it, takes two or three
steps and drops the ball to kick it high and deep.

lar3ryca

2024-10-08 03:07:01 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 07 Oct 2024 18:05:26 -0400, Rich Ulrich

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 7 Oct 2024 17:57:37 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by occam
Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a gamble'
in colloquial BrE.
I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did not have
that in its list.

Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late
majesty would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she
would have noticed the Rugby Union connection.

If she read "Peanuts", she would have known what the mad punter was.

That player is usually referred to as "the long snapper".

I don't watch NFL games, but that's what we call the one who snaps (not
hikes) the ball in the CFL.

Post by Tony Cooper
Joe Cardona, the long snapper for the New England Patriots, is paid
about $ 1.5 million a year. Luke Rhodes, the long snapper for the
Indianapolis Colts, had to manage on about $1.2 million a year, but he
was given a $6.465 million four-year contract extension in 2023.

It's a crucial position, and those that do it well are few.

Post by Rich Ulrich
hikes him the ball; he catches it, takes two or three
steps and drops the ball to kick it high and deep.

--
Is it crazy how saying sentences backwards creates backwards sentences
saying how crazy it is?

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-08 08:23:39 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich

Post by LionelEdwards
Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late
majesty would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she
would have noticed the Rugby Union connection.

If she read "Peanuts", she would have known what the mad punter was.

- ah - if you refer to the famous sequence where Lucy
THAT was not a punt, but was in the style of a field goal
or an extra point (after touchdown).

That is not my reference. There was a strip where Snoopy would run up to
a watermelonshaped football and kick it. Lying on his back on his house
he said "The mad punter strikes again". There were a couple of
follow-ups.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

jerryfriedman

2024-10-07 16:55:03 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

Post by jerryfriedman
Most translators seem to punt (as we say in my
country) and call it a waterwheel, which made me
wonder what the mule was doing.
-- Jerry Friedman

What is implied by "punt"?

Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a gamble'
in colloquial BrE.
I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did not have
that in its list.

Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late
majesty would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she
would have noticed the Rugby Union connection.

Nobody provided OED definitions for "punt". Ross
provided them for "waterwheel".

--
Jerry Friedman

Snidely

2024-10-07 21:06:13 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

Post by jerryfriedman
Most translators seem to punt (as we say in my
country) and call it a waterwheel, which made me
wonder what the mule was doing.
-- Jerry Friedman

What is implied by "punt"?

Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a gamble'
in colloquial BrE.
I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did not have
that in its list.

Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late
majesty would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she
would have noticed the Rugby Union connection.

Nobody provided OED definitions for "punt". Ross
provided them for "waterwheel".

Was occam being [gasp] sarcastic?

/dps

--
"Inviting people to laugh with you while you are laughing at yourself
is a good thing to do, You may be a fool but you're the fool in
charge." -- Carl Reiner

Peter Moylan

2024-10-08 00:47:28 UTC

Post by occam
Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a
gamble' in colloquial BrE.
I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did
not have that in its list.

Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late majesty
would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she would have noticed
the Rugby Union connection.

Nobody provided OED definitions for "punt". Ross provided them for
"waterwheel".

Now that the point has been raised, though, it seems that "punt" has a
much more specialised meaning in American football than it does in the
other codes I know about.

In Australian rules, for example, a kick can be a drop kick or a punt
kick. (With further subcategories, apparently, for those who care about
such details.) A drop kick is when the player bounces the ball and then
kicks it as it rises. In a punt kick the player's boot hits the ball
before it hits the ground (so in fact it doesn't hit the ground). There
is no legal difference between these. The choice is based on the
player's judgement as to which kind of kick will work best.

Meanwhile, the "gamble" meaning is alive and well here. Someone who bets
on horse races is a punter. Furthermore, the meaning has been stretched
by metaphorical extension. I believe I've heard or read about clients of
a prostitute being called punters.

Etymonline lists the football meaning (and other things like the boating
meaning), but does not mention gambling.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Rich Ulrich

2024-10-08 03:20:38 UTC

Post by occam
Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a
gamble' in colloquial BrE.
I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did
not have that in its list.

Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late majesty
would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she would have noticed
the Rugby Union connection.

Nobody provided OED definitions for "punt". Ross provided them for
"waterwheel".

Okay, more details - 50 years ago, American football still had
the drop-kick where the ball was kicked as it rose from the
bounce. In American football, there WAS a clear difference
between that and a punt: the drop-kick was a version of a
field-goal try, a version that did not give itself away with a
special formation, or use a long-snapper (as Tony corrected me).

Oh, Google AI overview -
The last successful drop kick in the NFL for points was made by
Doug Flutie of the New England Patriots on January 1, 2006. Flutie,
43 at the time, made the kick as an extra point after a touchdown
against the Miami Dolphins. This was the first successful drop kick
for points in the NFL since Ray McLean of the Chicago Bears made
one in 1941.
A further note mentions that drop kicks were more common
when the ball was rounder -- before 1934. And: still legal.

I remember, further, a version of the punt that was called a
'quick-kick'. The ordianry punt uses a special formation and a
specialist punter. The situation for a quick-kick was 3rd down
(4th down is for the usual punt), stuck on one's own ~10 yard
line, and long yardage needed for a 1st down. The quarterback,
a fine athlete with a good leg as well as good arm, takes the
ball from center, runs a bit back and to the side, and
(surprising the defense) kicks a long, low punt that he hopes
will roll 70 yards. (Not the standard high, deep punt.)

A low punt is ordinarily a bad punt because an early catch
means a long run-back. The quick-kick is supposed to be just
high enough (or wide) to clear the deepest safety, and ROLL.

I think that I saw the quick kick in high school when the QB
might have doubled as the regular punter -- Ordinarily, you
want the punter to have done a LITTLE practice, over the year.

Post by Peter Moylan
before it hits the ground (so in fact it doesn't hit the ground). There
is no legal difference between these. The choice is based on the
player's judgement as to which kind of kick will work best.
Meanwhile, the "gamble" meaning is alive and well here. Someone who bets
on horse races is a punter. Furthermore, the meaning has been stretched
by metaphorical extension. I believe I've heard or read about clients of
a prostitute being called punters.
Etymonline lists the football meaning (and other things like the boating
meaning), but does not mention gambling.

--
Rich Ulrich

Tony Cooper

2024-10-08 03:51:21 UTC

Post by occam
Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a
gamble' in colloquial BrE.
I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did
not have that in its list.

Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late majesty
would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she would have noticed
the Rugby Union connection.

Nobody provided OED definitions for "punt". Ross provided them for
"waterwheel".

The "drop kick" is still legal in the NFL. The last person to try one
was Doug Flutie in 2006 when he did so as a New England Patriot in
scoring the extra point after touchdown against Miami.
It was never the style for punts, though. In the early days of
football, it was a style used for kick-offs and extra point tries.

I'm uncomfortable with "the punt kick" used above. To punt, is to
kick the ball rather than to run or pass the ball. All punts are
kicks, so "punt kick" is redundant.

Peter Moylan

2024-10-08 04:41:09 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
Now that the point has been raised, though, it seems that "punt"
has a much more specialised meaning in American football than it
does in the other codes I know about.

[...]

Post by Tony Cooper
I'm uncomfortable with "the punt kick" used above. To punt, is to
kick the ball rather than to run or pass the ball. All punts are
kicks, so "punt kick" is redundant.

Well, that was my point. "Punt" does not have the same meaning in
Australian Rules (and I think in some other codes) as it does in
American football. In AR it's a subset of "kick".

I was never good at football, so don't know the fine points of
footballing skill. It's clear to me, though, that the best choice of
kick will depend on things like whether you're running or stationary
when you make the kick, so you need more than one kind of kick in your
repertoire.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-08 08:29:23 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
In Australian rules, for example, a kick can be a drop kick or a punt
kick. (With further subcategories, apparently, for those who care about
such details.) A drop kick is when the player bounces the ball and then
kicks it as it rises. In a punt kick the player's boot hits the ball
before it hits the ground (so in fact it doesn't hit the ground). There
is no legal difference between these. The choice is based on the
player's judgement as to which kind of kick will work best.

In soccer the player of course cannot drop the ball, but it may approach
him flying. If he kicks it without it touching the ground, we (Danes)
call it "flugter" which could be translated as "flyer". If the player
lets the ball touch the ground and jump up before kickingk it, its a
"halvflugter".

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

LionelEdwards

2024-10-08 08:58:59 UTC

In the UK, in soccer or tennis, those translate as
"volley" and "half-volley".

jerryfriedman

2024-10-08 12:53:45 UTC

In soccer the player of course cannot drop the ball,

Except for goalies, and I believe they do use drop-kicks.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
but it may approach
him flying. If he kicks it without it touching the ground, we (Danes)
call it "flugter" which could be translated as "flyer". If the player
lets the ball touch the ground and jump up before kickingk it, its a
"halvflugter".

In the UK, in soccer or tennis, those translate as
"volley" and "half-volley".

In the U.S. too.

--
Jerry Friedman

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-08 15:44:09 UTC

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In soccer the player of course cannot drop the ball,

Except for goalies, and I believe they do use drop-kicks.

You are right. I wasn't thinking about them.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

lar3ryca

2024-10-08 21:58:43 UTC

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In soccer the player of course cannot drop the ball,

Except for goalies, and I believe they do use drop-kicks.

You are right. I wasn't thinking about them.

Are they required by rule to drop-kick?

One of the things I really don't understand about soccer is ''offside'.
I was once told that it was when a player went past the last defender,
but I notice that that happens a lot without being called.

--
Why do people come back from the baby-changing
station with the same baby?

jerryfriedman

2024-10-08 23:03:08 UTC

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In soccer the player of course cannot drop the ball,

Except for goalies, and I believe they do use drop-kicks.

You are right. I wasn't thinking about them.

Are they required by rule to drop-kick?
One of the things I really don't understand about soccer is ''offside'.
I was once told that it was when a player went past the last defender,
but I notice that that happens a lot without being called.

Roughly, and in North American language, a player without
the ball can be called for offside if there's no more than
one opponent (usually the goalie) farther downfield. The
referee has the discretion not to call it if it doesn't
give an advantage to the offside player's team.

--
Jerry Friedman

jerryfriedman

2024-10-08 23:53:59 UTC

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In soccer the player of course cannot drop the ball,

Except for goalies, and I believe they do use drop-kicks.

You are right. I wasn't thinking about them.

Are they required by rule to drop-kick?
One of the things I really don't understand about soccer is ''offside'.
I was once told that it was when a player went past the last defender,
but I notice that that happens a lot without being called.

Forgot to see that it's only offside if the player is
ahead of the ball.

--
Jerry Friedman

lar3ryca

2024-10-09 01:38:19 UTC

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In soccer the player of course cannot drop the ball,

Except for goalies, and I believe they do use drop-kicks.

You are right. I wasn't thinking about them.

Are they required by rule to drop-kick?
One of the things I really don't understand about soccer is ''offside'.
I was once told that it was when a player went past the last defender,
but I notice that that happens a lot without being called.

Forgot to see that it's only offside if the player is
ahead of the ball.

Aha! That explains why I see what looked like offside, with the official
just standing there and watching.

--
I used to think I was indecisive, but now I’m not quite sure.

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-09 06:09:38 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
Forgot to see that it's only offside if the player is
ahead of the ball.

I forgot that one too.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Steve Hayes

2024-10-09 03:46:32 UTC

Post by lar3ryca
One of the things I really don't understand about soccer is ''offside'.
I was once told that it was when a player went past the last defender,
but I notice that that happens a lot without being called.

In soccer the offside rule is that there must be one other defender
apart from the goalie downfield of the player receiving the ball *at
the time that the ball was kicked*. It's not offside if the receiving
player runs past that defender after the ball is kicked. Thats what
the linesmen are there to see.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-09 06:13:54 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes
In soccer the offside rule is that there must be one other defender
apart from the goalie downfield of the player receiving the ball *at
the time that the ball was kicked*.

Only one defender 'between' the attacker and the goal.

Here's an explanation:

https://www.soccercoachingpro.com/soccer-rules/#tab-con-11

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

lar3ryca

2024-10-09 07:06:43 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes
In soccer the offside rule is that there must be one other defender
apart from the goalie downfield of the player receiving the ball *at
the time that the ball was kicked*.

Only one defender 'between' the attacker and the goal.
https://www.soccercoachingpro.com/soccer-rules/#tab-con-11

Wow. I navigated to a long explanation with diagrams illustrating some
of the concepts.

It's pretty complicated.

--
Right now I'm having amnesia and deja-vue at the same time.
I think I've forgotten this before.

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-09 12:35:37 UTC

Post by lar3ryca
Wow. I navigated to a long explanation with diagrams illustrating some
of the concepts.
It's pretty complicated.

I don't think that it is difficult, but then I've known the rule since
early school. There are of course situations where the referee has to
evaluate if there is interference or not.

If you watch a thousands soccer matches on tv, you'll no doubt feel
familiar with the rule. Or watch here:

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-09 12:43:01 UTC

Post by lar3ryca
Wow. I navigated to a long explanation with diagrams illustrating some
of the concepts.
It's pretty complicated.

I don't think that it is difficult, but then I've known the rule since
early school. There are of course situations where the referee has to
evaluate if there is interference or not.
If you watch a thousands soccer matches on tv, you'll no doubt feel
http://youtu.be/GePlbCsGniA

Or here (good examples from real play):

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-10-09 07:22:57 UTC

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In soccer the player of course cannot drop the ball,

Except for goalies, and I believe they do use drop-kicks.

You are right. I wasn't thinking about them.

Are they required by rule to drop-kick?
One of the things I really don't understand about soccer is ''offside'.
I was once told that it was when a player went past the last defender,
but I notice that that happens a lot without being called.

I had great difficulty understanding the point of the offside rule in
football (the real kind, involving a ball and the feet) until I started
playing waterpolo as a lad. At that time waterpolo had no offside rule
(I don't know if it does now, 60 years later), and one could place a
player very close to the goal and if the ball was passed to him he
could deflect it immediately into the goal.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Silvano

2024-10-09 08:37:06 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I had great difficulty understanding the point of the offside rule in
football (the real kind, involving a ball and the feet) until I started
playing waterpolo as a lad. At that time waterpolo had no offside rule
(I don't know if it does now, 60 years later), and one could place a
player very close to the goal and if the ball was passed to him he could
deflect it immediately into the goal.

AFAIK, there have been many changes in the rules of waterpolo in the
last 60 years, but from what I saw at the Olympics there's still no
offside rule. But then, it's very unlikely that a player manages to stay
very close to the goal for more than 1 or 2 seconds without an opponent
at arm-hitting distance. Youtube is your friend if you want to see how
waterpolo is played now.

Oh, I just found out that there is a sort of offside rule now.
Quote from <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_water_polo>
"The '2 meter' line is designated with a red line; and no player of the
attacking team can receive a ball inside this zone. Those are being used
since the 2020 Summer Olympics in 2021."

Out of curiosity: do you remember how long a team could hold the ball 60
years ago? Now it's only 30 seconds!

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-10-09 10:20:13 UTC

Post by Silvano

No doubt. That's probably why I never saw the scenario I mentioned
being put into practice.

As for arm hitting, in my day players were not much worried about
fouls. Kicking an opponent in the stomach was regarded as part of the
game. Of course, referees didn't necessarily agree, but they couldn't
easily see.

Post by Silvano
Youtube is your friend if you want to see how
waterpolo is played now.
Oh, I just found out that there is a sort of offside rule now.
Quote from <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_water_polo>
"The '2 meter' line is designated with a red line; and no player of the
attacking team can receive a ball inside this zone. Those are being used
since the 2020 Summer Olympics in 2021."
Out of curiosity: do you remember how long a team could hold the ball 60
years ago? Now it's only 30 seconds!

Sorry, no recollection.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-09 12:30:15 UTC

In my schooltime we called that "fishing" and it was frowned upon. I
think that we didn't always play with offside-rule.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

jerryfriedman

2024-10-09 13:34:48 UTC

In my schooltime we called that "fishing" and it was frowned upon.

..

AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

--
Jerry Friedman

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-10-09 16:00:44 UTC

In my schooltime we called that "fishing" and it was frowned upon.

..
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

I've come across cherry-picking with a very different meanings:
searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views. Creationist love to do that. A favourite example is
Darwin's comment about the eye, quoted without mentioning the later
parts of the context:
https://gizmodo.com/im-tired-of-seeing-this-charles-darwin-quote-taken-out-1678727678

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

jerryfriedman

2024-10-09 16:55:33 UTC

In my schooltime we called that "fishing" and it was frowned upon.

..
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..

Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

--
Jerry Friedman

Tony Cooper

2024-10-09 17:07:39 UTC

In my schooltime we called that "fishing" and it was frowned upon.

..
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

Chris Elvidge

2024-10-10 09:58:50 UTC

In my schooltime we called that "fishing" and it was frowned upon.

..
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

IME : ...pick out the aspects that best exemplify _your_ point...

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I AM NOT THE LAST DON

jerryfriedman

2024-10-10 13:21:05 UTC

On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:07:39 -0400
[]

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

IME a chery picker is some kind of cubicle that's lofted from a 4
wheeled vehicle

..

That too, in my experience.

--
Jerry Friedman

Sam Plusnet

2024-10-10 18:06:46 UTC

On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:07:39 -0400
[]

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

IME a chery picker is some kind of cubicle that's lofted from a 4
wheeled vehicle

..
That too, in my experience.

That rear axle might have two wheels on each side.
Does that make it a 6 wheeled vehicle? Or does it only count if there
is a second rear axle?

--
Sam Plusnet

Tony Cooper

2024-10-12 04:59:40 UTC

On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:07:39 -0400
[]

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

IME a chery picker is some kind of cubicle that's lofted from a 4
wheeled vehicle

..
That too, in my experience.

That rear axle might have two wheels on each side.
Does that make it a 6 wheeled vehicle? Or does it only count if there
is a second rear axle?

Two tires on each side on the rear axle would be called "duallies"
here. Quite often, pick-up trucks that are used to carry or tow large
loads are fitted with duallies.

Loading Image...

The photo is because I'm not sure "pick-up truck" translates for all.

Kerr-Mudd, John

2024-10-12 09:29:07 UTC

On Sat, 12 Oct 2024 00:59:40 -0400
Tony Cooper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
[]

Post by Tony Cooper
https://di-uploads-pod12.dealerinspire.com/universitydodgeram/uploads/2017/02/ram-3500-heavy-university-ram.jpg
The photo is because I'm not sure "pick-up truck" translates for all.

Pickup trucks are for cool doods wearing pink carnations.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

jerryfriedman

2024-10-12 13:43:01 UTC

On Sat, 12 Oct 2024 4:59:40 +0000, Tony Cooper wrote:
..

Post by Tony Cooper
Two tires on each side on the rear axle would be called "duallies"
here.

Here the truck would be called a dually (pronounced like
the ill-fated Tom). I don't know whether the word would
also be used for the wheels.

Post by Tony Cooper
Quite often, pick-up trucks that are used to carry or tow large
loads are fitted with duallies.

..

Around here, the main purpose of a lot of duallies
seems to be an attempt to impress people.

--
Jerry Friedman

Tony Cooper

2024-10-12 14:58:17 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Tony Cooper
Two tires on each side on the rear axle would be called "duallies"
here.

Here the truck would be called a dually (pronounced like
the ill-fated Tom). I don't know whether the word would
also be used for the wheels.

Post by Tony Cooper
Quite often, pick-up trucks that are used to carry or tow large
loads are fitted with duallies.

..
Around here, the main purpose of a lot of duallies
seems to be an attempt to impress people.

I see a lot of trucks fitted with duallies used by landscapers and
mobile automobile detailers (who have large containers of water in the
truck bed). The landscapers tow trailers filled with mowers and such
and fill the truck beds with debris.

What I don't understand is the number of trucks with lifts so the body
is so high that a stepladder is almost needed to get in the door. It's
a very expensive modification.

jerryfriedman

2024-10-12 20:31:07 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Tony Cooper
Two tires on each side on the rear axle would be called "duallies"
here.

Here the truck would be called a dually (pronounced like
the ill-fated Tom). I don't know whether the word would
also be used for the wheels.

Post by Tony Cooper
Quite often, pick-up trucks that are used to carry or tow large
loads are fitted with duallies.

..
Around here, the main purpose of a lot of duallies
seems to be an attempt to impress people.

I see duallies belonging to landscapers here too. I haven't
noticed mobile detailers. But I also see quite a few big
duallies that have no business information and look as if
they've never done a day's work.

Post by Tony Cooper
What I don't understand is the number of trucks with lifts so the body
is so high that a stepladder is almost needed to get in the door. It's
a very expensive modification.

Explained by a slang term for them, "penis extenders".

Next: coal rolling.

--
Jerry Friedman

J. J. Lodder

2024-10-12 20:34:25 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Tony Cooper
Two tires on each side on the rear axle would be called "duallies"
here.

Here the truck would be called a dually (pronounced like
the ill-fated Tom). I don't know whether the word would
also be used for the wheels.

Post by Tony Cooper
Quite often, pick-up trucks that are used to carry or tow large
loads are fitted with duallies.

..
Around here, the main purpose of a lot of duallies
seems to be an attempt to impress people.

These duals seem to be an American thing that is obsolete in Europe.
Whe had a long discussion on the subject several years ago here
in an '18-wheeler' thread.
Instead of having dual wheels on an axle
(with nothing but disadvantages)
European tyre and truck manufacturers developed singles
with higher load bearing capacities. [1]

Jan

[1] 'Europe' has always been leading the USA in tyre design.
The reason is obvious: Americans (despite all their whining about it)
have always had the advantage of nearly free fuel.
So tyre efficiency mattered little to them.
Europeans have always had relatively expensive fuel.
Moreover, most of it has to be paid for in dollars,
which were in short supply, or even rationed,
for a long time after WWII.
So they had an incentive for being efficient.
(by inventing things like radial tyres)

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-10-13 07:42:43 UTC

[ … ]

[1] 'Europe' has always been leading the USA in tyre design.
The reason is obvious: Americans (despite all their whining about it)
have always had the advantage of nearly free fuel.

Right. I went to a meeting on Flathead Lake (Montana) in 1987. I rented
a biggish car at Kalispell airport, drove to Lake Lodge and continued
from there in the direction of Ogden (Utah). At about the level of
Butte, in the south of Montana, I stopped to fill up with petrol at a
self-service station. The price shown on the pump was $11, but I
thought that couldn't be right, and that it meant $110. But no, the
price was $11 -- nearly free, as you say.

Post by J. J. Lodder
So tyre efficiency mattered little to them.
Europeans have always had relatively expensive fuel.
Moreover, most of it has to be paid for in dollars,
which were in short supply, or even rationed,
for a long time after WWII.
So they had an incentive for being efficient.
(by inventing things like radial tyres)

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Aidan Kehoe

2024-10-13 09:44:10 UTC

[ … ]

[1] 'Europe' has always been leading the USA in tyre design. The reason is
obvious: Americans (despite all their whining about it) have always had
the advantage of nearly free fuel.

Right. I went to a meeting on Flathead Lake (Montana) in 1987. I rented a
biggish car at Kalispell airport, drove to Lake Lodge and continued from
there in the direction of Ogden (Utah). At about the level of Butte, in the
south of Montana, I stopped to fill up with petrol at a self-service
station. The price shown on the pump was $11, but I thought that couldn't be
right, and that it meant $110. But no, the price was $11 -- nearly free, as
you say.

A distant American relative visited us in the 1990s (in Ireland for the second
time, first time had been as an 18-year-old on the west coast) and did the
polite thing of offering to pay for fuel. He got an unpleasant surprise when he
saw how much the tank cost.

--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)

Sam Plusnet

2024-10-12 18:39:06 UTC

On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:07:39 -0400
[]

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

IME a chery picker is some kind of cubicle that's lofted from a 4
wheeled vehicle

..
That too, in my experience.

That rear axle might have two wheels on each side.
Does that make it a 6 wheeled vehicle? Or does it only count if there
is a second rear axle?

Two tires on each side on the rear axle would be called "duallies"
here. Quite often, pick-up trucks that are used to carry or tow large
loads are fitted with duallies.
https://di-uploads-pod12.dealerinspire.com/universitydodgeram/uploads/2017/02/ram-3500-heavy-university-ram.jpg
The photo is because I'm not sure "pick-up truck" translates for all.

"Pick-up Truck" is a recognised term in BrE, but they are less common on
UK roads than conventional cars

--
Sam Plusnet

Peter Moylan

2024-10-12 23:19:09 UTC

"Pick-up Truck" is a recognised term in BrE, but they are less common
on UK roads than conventional cars

Very common in Australia, where the vehicle is called a ute. (Short for
"utility vehicle", I suppose, but it's never spelled out in full.) I've
never seen one with double back wheels, though.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan

2024-10-12 23:40:30 UTC

"Pick-up Truck" is a recognised term in BrE, but they are less
common on UK roads than conventional cars

Very common in Australia, where the vehicle is called a ute. (Short
for "utility vehicle", I suppose, but it's never spelled out in
full.) I've never seen one with double back wheels, though.

I've just noticed that the one in the picture has four doors. An
Australian ute has two doors. Newer models usually have roll bars.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Rich Ulrich

2024-10-13 02:13:28 UTC

"Pick-up Truck" is a recognised term in BrE, but they are less
common on UK roads than conventional cars

Very common in Australia, where the vehicle is called a ute. (Short
for "utility vehicle", I suppose, but it's never spelled out in
full.) I've never seen one with double back wheels, though.

I've just noticed that the one in the picture has four doors. An
Australian ute has two doors. Newer models usually have roll bars.

My active vocabulary has pickup trucks, not utes or utility vehicles.

I've heard 'utility vehicles' a few times and never knew exactly
what was meant; I've needed 'ute' for crossword puzzles.

I just now looked at images in Google, for 4wd utes, and
almost all of them, like 90% of the first 40, are 4-door pickups.
So I've learned something.

And I've confirmed that pickups outsell 'car' models in America
now. Suburbs, I figure. I don't see so many of them on the
city streets of Pittsburgh.
The Ford F-Series, the Chevrolet Silverado and the Ram truck series
grabbed the first, second and third spots, respectively, on the
list of top vehicles.

Elsewhere - 750,000 Ford F-Series, 450,000 Ram trucks in 2023.

One further comment leaves me wondering ...
Dec 18, 2022 — Trucks represent about 20% of U.S. sales this year,
a tad more than cars. In fact, pickups (Ford F-Series, Chevy
Silverado, and Ram Pickup) ...

If trucks and cars are each 20%, what comprises the other 60%?

Okay, Googling - There must be a lot of SUVs.
https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/automotive-sales-in-usa-by-month
September, 2024 -
Passenger cars 225,331
Light trucks (Pickup truck, SUV) 951,516.

The site also lists sales for two dozen car models by model name,
if someone else has more curiosity.

--
Rich Ulrich

Tony Cooper

2024-10-13 04:09:16 UTC

On Sat, 12 Oct 2024 22:13:28 -0400, Rich Ulrich

Post by Rich Ulrich

"Pick-up Truck" is a recognised term in BrE, but they are less
common on UK roads than conventional cars

Very common in Australia, where the vehicle is called a ute. (Short
for "utility vehicle", I suppose, but it's never spelled out in
full.) I've never seen one with double back wheels, though.

I've just noticed that the one in the picture has four doors. An
Australian ute has two doors. Newer models usually have roll bars.

My active vocabulary has pickup trucks, not utes or utility vehicles.

One of the common vehicle configurations in the US is the SUV: Sports
Utility Vehicle.

Post by Rich Ulrich
I've heard 'utility vehicles' a few times and never knew exactly
what was meant; I've needed 'ute' for crossword puzzles.
I just now looked at images in Google, for 4wd utes, and
almost all of them, like 90% of the first 40, are 4-door pickups.
So I've learned something.

Some of the "utes" from OZ resemble the Ford Rancheros and Chevrolet
El Caminos of yesteryear.

Post by Rich Ulrich
And I've confirmed that pickups outsell 'car' models in America
now. Suburbs, I figure. I don't see so many of them on the
city streets of Pittsburgh.
The Ford F-Series, the Chevrolet Silverado and the Ram truck series
grabbed the first, second and third spots, respectively, on the
list of top vehicles.
Elsewhere - 750,000 Ford F-Series, 450,000 Ram trucks in 2023.
One further comment leaves me wondering ...
Dec 18, 2022 Trucks represent about 20% of U.S. sales this year,
a tad more than cars. In fact, pickups (Ford F-Series, Chevy
Silverado, and Ram Pickup) ...
If trucks and cars are each 20%, what comprises the other 60%?
Okay, Googling - There must be a lot of SUVs.
https://www.marklines.com/en/statistics/flash_sales/automotive-sales-in-usa-by-month
September, 2024 -
Passenger cars 225,331
Light trucks (Pickup truck, SUV) 951,516.
The site also lists sales for two dozen car models by model name,
if someone else has more curiosity.

Peter Moylan

2024-10-13 04:27:33 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
One of the common vehicle configurations in the US is the SUV: Sports
Utility Vehicle.

Sometimes also called Suburban Assault Vehicles.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

charles

2024-10-13 09:30:02 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
One of the common vehicle configurations in the US is the SUV: Sports
Utility Vehicle.

Sometimes also called Suburban Assault Vehicles.

or "Off the road vehicles" - meaning they park on the pavement (UK)
/sidewalk (US)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Phil

2024-10-13 10:03:02 UTC

Post by charles

Post by Tony Cooper
One of the common vehicle configurations in the US is the SUV: Sports
Utility Vehicle.

Sometimes also called Suburban Assault Vehicles.

or "Off the road vehicles" - meaning they park on the pavement (UK)
/sidewalk (US)

"Chelsea tractor".

--
Phil B

charles

2024-10-13 12:00:02 UTC

Post by Phil

Post by charles

Post by Tony Cooper
One of the common vehicle configurations in the US is the SUV: Sports
Utility Vehicle.

Sometimes also called Suburban Assault Vehicles.

or "Off the road vehicles" - meaning they park on the pavement (UK)
/sidewalk (US)

"Chelsea tractor".

of similar geographic roots to "Brixton Briefcase"?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Rich Ulrich

2024-10-13 06:10:35 UTC

On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 00:09:16 -0400, Tony Cooper
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

me>

Post by Rich Ulrich
My active vocabulary has pickup trucks, not utes or utility vehicles.

One of the common vehicle configurations in the US is the SUV: Sports
Utility Vehicle.

!! The initials SUV is how I always think of them -- I think that
may be because the word "Sports" strikes me as so wrong.
"Sports car" starts in my head with 1960s' MBGs and broadens
to include expensive Jaguars, etc.

SUVs make me think of "van" which is "utility" and far from
"sports".

I suppose an SUV can carry a team plus equipment.

Converted school buses work for bigger teams -- even
bigger "SUVs"?

--
Rich Ulrich

jerryfriedman

2024-10-13 14:26:12 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 00:09:16 -0400, Tony Cooper
me>

Post by Rich Ulrich
My active vocabulary has pickup trucks, not utes or utility vehicles.

One of the common vehicle configurations in the US is the SUV: Sports
Utility Vehicle.

!! The initials SUV is how I always think of them -- I think that
may be because the word "Sports" strikes me as so wrong.
"Sports car" starts in my head with 1960s' MBGs and broadens
to include expensive Jaguars, etc.
SUVs make me think of "van" which is "utility" and far from
"sports".
I suppose an SUV can carry a team plus equipment.
Converted school buses work for bigger teams -- even
bigger "SUVs"?

The sport is off-road driving, I believe.

By the way, unlike "sports car", "sport utility vehicle"
with singular "sport" is more common.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=sport+utility+vehicle%2Csports+utility+vehicle&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en&smoothing=3

https://tinyurl.com/ycyc2yc2

--
Jerry Friedman

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-13 13:34:56 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
The photo is because I'm not sure "pick-up truck" translates for all.

"Pick-up Truck" is a recognised term in BrE, but they are less common on
UK roads than conventional cars

The term is also understood in Denmark (usually just "pickup").

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

J. J. Lodder

2024-10-12 10:53:56 UTC

On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:07:39 -0400
[]

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

IME a chery picker is some kind of cubicle that's lofted from a 4
wheeled vehicle

..
That too, in my experience.

That rear axle might have two wheels on each side.
Does that make it a 6 wheeled vehicle? Or does it only count if there
is a second rear axle?

Not legally.
Anyway, it is a dumb approach to the problem.
It makes more sense to have extending arms for support,
or even to jack up the whole vehicle, if more stability is needed.
Don't know if there is a special name for those outrigger things,

Jan

Tony Cooper

2024-10-12 13:38:33 UTC

On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:07:39 -0400
[]

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

IME a chery picker is some kind of cubicle that's lofted from a 4
wheeled vehicle

..
That too, in my experience.

That rear axle might have two wheels on each side.
Does that make it a 6 wheeled vehicle? Or does it only count if there
is a second rear axle?

Why is it a "dumb approach"? First of all, they *do* have outriggers
that can be used to stabilize the vehicle when the cherry picker arm
is extended.

The dual rear wheels are there because of the weight of the structure
on the vehicle. They provide better support to that weight, more
traction exposure, and help ensure that the truck does not break down
if one tire blows. The vehicles are often used in rough areas where
the rear tires are in muddy or debris-bearing areas.

Sam Plusnet

2024-10-12 18:44:13 UTC

On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:07:39 -0400
[]

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

IME a chery picker is some kind of cubicle that's lofted from a 4
wheeled vehicle

..
That too, in my experience.

That rear axle might have two wheels on each side.
Does that make it a 6 wheeled vehicle? Or does it only count if there
is a second rear axle?

Why is it a "dumb approach"? First of all, they *do* have outriggers
that can be used to stabilize the vehicle when the cherry picker arm
is extended.
The dual rear wheels are there because of the weight of the structure
on the vehicle. They provide better support to that weight, more
traction exposure, and help ensure that the truck does not break down
if one tire blows. The vehicles are often used in rough areas where
the rear tires are in muddy or debris-bearing areas.

Those "dual rear wheels" can cause problems.
I followed a medium-sized lorry where a large stone had become lodged
between the two tyres.
If centrifugal force threw it towards me, I would have been in serious
trouble. I backed off

--
Sam Plusnet

Tony Cooper

2024-10-12 05:12:18 UTC

On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:07:39 -0400
[]

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

IME a chery picker is some kind of cubicle that's lofted from a 4
wheeled vehicle

..
That too, in my experience.

I have probably seen more than 30 of those trucks today. They are all
over the area repairing the power lines and transformers taken down by
Hurricane Milton.

The last one I saw was at 8:15 this evening. That crew was roundly
cheered by the condo complex as it restored our power. We had been -
literally - in the dark for about 48 hours.

Two days without power (which means without lights, tv, or internet)
is incredibly boring. Expensive, too, because everything in the
freezer section of the refrigerator and quite a few things on the cold
side had to be thrown out.

Kerr-Mudd, John

2024-10-12 09:30:20 UTC

On Sat, 12 Oct 2024 01:12:18 -0400

On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:07:39 -0400
[]

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

IME a chery picker is some kind of cubicle that's lofted from a 4
wheeled vehicle

..
That too, in my experience.

I have probably seen more than 30 of those trucks today. They are all
over the area repairing the power lines and transformers taken down by
Hurricane Milton.
The last one I saw was at 8:15 this evening. That crew was roundly
cheered by the condo complex as it restored our power. We had been -
literally - in the dark for about 48 hours.
Two days without power (which means without lights, tv, or internet)
is incredibly boring. Expensive, too, because everything in the
freezer section of the refrigerator and quite a few things on the cold
side had to be thrown out.

But 1) you're alive 2) you have somewhere to live, still.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

J. J. Lodder

2024-10-12 10:53:56 UTC

On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 13:07:39 -0400
[]

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

IME a chery picker is some kind of cubicle that's lofted from a 4
wheeled vehicle

..
That too, in my experience.

I have probably seen more than 30 of those trucks today. They are all
over the area repairing the power lines and transformers taken down by
Hurricane Milton.
The last one I saw was at 8:15 this evening. That crew was roundly
cheered by the condo complex as it restored our power. We had been -
literally - in the dark for about 48 hours.
Two days without power (which means without lights, tv, or internet)
is incredibly boring. Expensive, too, because everything in the
freezer section of the refrigerator and quite a few things on the cold
side had to be thrown out.

As always, the surprising thing to us Europeans
is why all that electrical junk was up there to begin with.
No point in complaining, you get what you pay for,

Jan

--
"Goedkoop is duurkoop" (Dutch proverb)
Lit: cheapbuy is dearbuy.
No good equivalent afaik, 'You get what you pay for' covers some of it,
'the poor pay more' covers another part.

J. J. Lodder

2024-10-12 10:53:56 UTC

In my schooltime we called that "fishing" and it was frowned upon.

..
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

That is too positive a view of it, I think.
The usual implication is that all that doesn't fit is ignored.
So it is usually seen as a special form of 'lying by omission',

Jan

Rich Ulrich

2024-10-12 15:52:11 UTC

In my schooltime we called that "fishing" and it was frowned upon.

..
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

That is too positive a view of it, I think.
The usual implication is that all that doesn't fit is ignored.

I agree with that -

Post by J. J. Lodder
So it is usually seen as a special form of 'lying by omission',

- but I'm not sure about "usually" because I might say, "I've been
cherry picking, so far" as I segue into more detail.

It certainly is a notification that there is more that could be said.

--
Rich Ulrich

J. J. Lodder

2024-10-12 20:34:24 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I had great difficulty understanding the point of the offside
rule in football (the real kind, involving a ball and the feet)
until I started playing waterpolo as a lad. At that time
waterpolo had no offside rule (I don't know if it does now, 60
years later), and one could place a player very close to the goal
and if the ball was passed to him he could deflect it immediately
into the goal.

In my schooltime we called that "fishing" and it was frowned upon.

..
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

That is too positive a view of it, I think.
The usual implication is that all that doesn't fit is ignored.

I agree with that -

Post by J. J. Lodder
So it is usually seen as a special form of 'lying by omission',

- but I'm not sure about "usually" because I might say, "I've been
cherry picking, so far" as I segue into more detail.

It is of course possible that a cherry-picker would do that,
but they never do.
The accusation of cherry picking is levelled at them
precisely because they didn't do so.

Jan

occam

2024-10-13 08:24:54 UTC

<snip>

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

Oh, you mean the standard behaviour of what was PTD's MO?

Post by jerryfriedman
..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

Oh, you _do_ mean PTD's standard posting practice.

Post by Tony Cooper
I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

Hmm, not always. But close.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-10-13 08:42:13 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

searching through someone's writings to find something to quote to give
the impression that the writer meant something very different from
their real views.

Oh, you mean the standard behaviour of what was PTD's MO?

Yes.

Post by occam

Post by jerryfriedman
..
Or in general, selecting the evidence that supports your
position and ignoring the rest.

Oh, you _do_ mean PTD's standard posting practice.

Post by Tony Cooper
I think of the expression meaning that one picks out the aspects that
best exemplify the point.

Hmm, not always. But close.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Peter Moylan

2024-10-10 01:00:52 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

The street I grew up in had a cherry tree outside every house. We could
walk the length of the street, cherry-picking all the way. Delicious.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

J. J. Lodder

2024-10-10 16:16:01 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

The street I grew up in had a cherry tree outside every house. We could
walk the length of the street, cherry-picking all the way. Delicious.

And even ripe cherries.
Nowadays the kiddies don't have an idea anymore
of what a ripe cherry tastes like,

Jan

Sam Plusnet

2024-10-10 18:12:15 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

The street I grew up in had a cherry tree outside every house. We could
walk the length of the street, cherry-picking all the way. Delicious.

And even ripe cherries.
Nowadays the kiddies don't have an idea anymore
of what a ripe cherry tastes like,

We have a (sweet) cherry tree. I have no idea what they taste like,
since the birds scoff the lot long before they are ripe.

(We also have some wild cherry trees (Prunus avium?), but I wouldn't eat
their fruit.)

--
Sam Plusnet

jerryfriedman

2024-10-10 18:58:35 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

The street I grew up in had a cherry tree outside every house. We could
walk the length of the street, cherry-picking all the way. Delicious.

And even ripe cherries.
Nowadays the kiddies don't have an idea anymore
of what a ripe cherry tastes like,

We have a (sweet) cherry tree. I have no idea what they taste like,
since the birds scoff the lot long before they are ripe.

I hope some of them are blackbirds and sing to you.

https://books.google.com/books?id=qotIAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA463

(bottom of the page).

Post by Sam Plusnet
(We also have some wild cherry trees (Prunus avium?), but I wouldn't eat
their fruit.)

Let me guess--despite the scientific name, the birds like
the human-edible ones better.

You know you can get netting to protect fruit trees from
birds? If it's a full-sized tree, I suppose the netting
might be expensive and putting it on might be awkward,
but I wonder whether you could just protect a branch.

--
Jerry Friedman

Sam Plusnet

2024-10-11 01:06:24 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

The street I grew up in had a cherry tree outside every house. We could
walk the length of the street, cherry-picking all the way. Delicious.

And even ripe cherries.
Nowadays the kiddies don't have an idea anymore
of what a ripe cherry tastes like,

We have a (sweet) cherry tree. I have no idea what they taste like,
since the birds scoff the lot long before they are ripe.

I hope some of them are blackbirds and sing to you.
https://books.google.com/books?id=qotIAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA463
(bottom of the page).

(We also have some wild cherry trees (Prunus avium?), but I wouldn't eat
their fruit.)

Let me guess--despite the scientific name, the birds like
the human-edible ones better.
You know you can get netting to protect fruit trees from
birds? If it's a full-sized tree, I suppose the netting
might be expensive and putting it on might be awkward,
but I wonder whether you could just protect a branch.

Our biggest wild cherry is taller than our neighbour's 3(ish) story house.
The sweet cherry (Stella) is crowded by several other trees and getting
a net over it would be tricky.
Even if we managed to put off the birds, the squirrels would defeat any
netting.

--
Sam Plusnet

jerryfriedman

2024-10-12 16:01:34 UTC

We have a (sweet) cherry tree. I have no idea what they taste like,
since the birds scoff the lot long before they are ripe.

(We also have some wild cherry trees (Prunus avium?), but I wouldn't eat
their fruit.)

Post by jerryfriedman
You know you can get netting to protect fruit trees from
birds? If it's a full-sized tree, I suppose the netting
might be expensive and putting it on might be awkward,
but I wonder whether you could just protect a branch.

Ah, squirrels are harder, especially if they can get to the
tree from other trees.

By the way, on behalf on my country, you're welcome for
the squirrels.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter Moylan

2024-10-12 23:37:24 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
We have a (sweet) cherry tree. I have no idea what they taste
like, since the birds scoff the lot long before they are ripe.

Post by Sam Plusnet
(We also have some wild cherry trees (Prunus avium?), but I
wouldn't eat their fruit.)

You know you can get netting to protect fruit trees from birds?
If it's a full-sized tree, I suppose the netting might be
expensive and putting it on might be awkward, but I wonder
whether you could just protect a branch.

Our biggest wild cherry is taller than our neighbour's 3(ish)
story house. The sweet cherry (Stella) is crowded by several other
trees and getting a net over it would be tricky. Even if we managed
to put off the birds, the squirrels would defeat any netting.

Ah, squirrels are harder, especially if they can get to the tree from
other trees.
By the way, on behalf on my country, you're welcome for the
squirrels.

Our equivalent is the possum. (Completely unrelated to the American
opossum, as far as I know.) A major pest in New Zealand, as often
happens when you transport animals from one country to another. Less of
a pest in Australia, except in some regions. Among the few animals whose
Latin name I know.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

lar3ryca

2024-10-11 05:08:10 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

The street I grew up in had a cherry tree outside every house. We could
walk the length of the street, cherry-picking all the way. Delicious.

And even ripe cherries.
Nowadays the kiddies don't have an idea anymore
of what a ripe cherry tastes like,

We have a (sweet) cherry tree. I have no idea what they taste like,
since the birds scoff the lot long before they are ripe.
(We also have some wild cherry trees (Prunus avium?), but I wouldn't eat
their fruit.)

Isn't that odd. It's quite the opposite of wild strawberries, which,
while VERY small, pack a whole lot more flavour than the domesticated ones.

--
Some people say, contractions in the English language are difficult.
Indeed, they're.

Sam Plusnet

2024-10-11 19:18:23 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

The street I grew up in had a cherry tree outside every house. We could
walk the length of the street, cherry-picking all the way. Delicious.

And even ripe cherries.
Nowadays the kiddies don't have an idea anymore
of what a ripe cherry tastes like,

We have a (sweet) cherry tree. I have no idea what they taste like,
since the birds scoff the lot long before they are ripe.
(We also have some wild cherry trees (Prunus avium?), but I wouldn't
eat their fruit.)

Isn't that odd. It's quite the opposite of wild strawberries, which,
while VERY small, pack a whole lot more flavour than the domesticated ones.

I always thought wild strawberries were tasty - until I tried those that
grow in our garden. Tasteless.
We still have cultivated strawberries that went native decades ago, and
those taste OK.

--
Sam Plusnet

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-11 19:52:55 UTC

Post by lar3ryca
Isn't that odd. It's quite the opposite of wild strawberries, which,
while VERY small, pack a whole lot more flavour than the domesticated ones.

I always thought wild strawberries were tasty - until I tried those that
grow in our garden. Tasteless.

So are mine. And the tame variety grows in a bed so polluted that I dare
not eat them.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

jerryfriedman

2024-10-11 20:56:00 UTC

Post by lar3ryca
Isn't that odd. It's quite the opposite of wild strawberries, which,
while VERY small, pack a whole lot more flavour than the domesticated ones.

I always thought wild strawberries were tasty - until I tried those that
grow in our garden. Tasteless.

So are mine.

..

I don't suppose they had yellow flowers, by any chance?
There's a "mock strawberry" that looks very much like
actual strawberries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentilla_indica

--
Jerry Friedman

Sam Plusnet

2024-10-11 22:58:56 UTC

Post by lar3ryca
Isn't that odd. It's quite the opposite of wild strawberries, which,
while VERY small, pack a whole lot more flavour than the domesticated ones.

I always thought wild strawberries were tasty - until I tried those that
grow in our garden. Tasteless.

So are mine.

..
I don't suppose they had yellow flowers, by any chance?
There's a "mock strawberry" that looks very much like
actual strawberries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentilla_indica

Nope. The fruits look quite different on close examination.

--
Sam Plusnet

Kerr-Mudd, John

2024-10-12 09:26:28 UTC

On Fri, 11 Oct 2024 20:56:00 +0000

Post by lar3ryca
Isn't that odd. It's quite the opposite of wild strawberries, which,
while VERY small, pack a whole lot more flavour than the domesticated ones.

I always thought wild strawberries were tasty - until I tried those that
grow in our garden. Tasteless.

So are mine.

..
I don't suppose they had yellow flowers, by any chance?
There's a "mock strawberry" that looks very much like
actual strawberries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentilla_indica

Ah! We have a pink flower thingy that we st^picked up from a garden in
Ireland; looks ike a strawberry plant, but no berries (OK OK not really a
berry).

Might be this one:

https://www.ballyrobertgardens.com/products/fragaria-x-ananassa-pink-panda-frel

Phrase of the day:
"bigenereic hybrids"

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-12 11:07:41 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
I always thought wild strawberries were tasty - until I tried those that
grow in our garden. Tasteless.

So are mine.

..
I don't suppose they had yellow flowers, by any chance?

No, they are white, and the berries are definitely strawberries.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Kerr-Mudd, John

2024-10-12 09:19:22 UTC

On Fri, 11 Oct 2024 20:18:23 +0100

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

The street I grew up in had a cherry tree outside every house. We could
walk the length of the street, cherry-picking all the way. Delicious.

And even ripe cherries.
Nowadays the kiddies don't have an idea anymore
of what a ripe cherry tastes like,

We have a (sweet) cherry tree. I have no idea what they taste like,
since the birds scoff the lot long before they are ripe.
(We also have some wild cherry trees (Prunus avium?), but I wouldn't
eat their fruit.)

Isn't that odd. It's quite the opposite of wild strawberries, which,
while VERY small, pack a whole lot more flavour than the domesticated ones.

I always thought wild strawberries were tasty - until I tried those that
grow in our garden. Tasteless.

I just rushed out (prior to seeing this post) and had a wild strawberry!
yum. I can let you have some; erm strings? - they infest the patio slabs at
the front (I live in hope of a bumper harvest).

Post by Sam Plusnet
We still have cultivated strawberries that went native decades ago, and
those taste OK.

My SO moved ours recently, but she didn't mulch 'em in - they just about
survived the move, but didn't fruit.

Post by Sam Plusnet
--
Sam Plusnet

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

lar3ryca

2024-10-11 05:13:49 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

The street I grew up in had a cherry tree outside every house. We could
walk the length of the street, cherry-picking all the way. Delicious.

And even ripe cherries.
Nowadays the kiddies don't have an idea anymore
of what a ripe cherry tastes like,

There were two times of the year that I REALLY enjoyed travelling
through the Okanagan Valley of British Columbia; when the cherries were
ripe, and when the peaches were ripe.

I have NEVER had cherries or peaches anywhere else that came even close
to the flavour and juiciness of those.

--
To decode this comment into a readable form, rot13 it twice.

lar3ryca

2024-10-10 01:08:39 UTC

In my schooltime we called that "fishing" and it was frowned upon.

..
AmE "cherry-picking" (and maybe other terms).

Same in Hockey.

--
Dad, what does "Drive C: is being formatted mean"?

Kerr-Mudd, John

2024-10-09 18:51:10 UTC

On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 14:30:15 +0200

In my schooltime we called that "fishing" and it was frowned upon. I
think that we didn't always play with offside-rule.

My experience as a schoolboy was of a chap who's nickname was (possibly
still is) 'Goalhanger'. We played without any linesmen. Or even proper
goals. Kids today, jumpers for goalposts, aah, wasn't it? </Ron Manager>
[ytub - UKTV - Fast Show].

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-09 06:08:09 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
Except for goalies, and I believe they do use drop-kicks.

You are right. I wasn't thinking about them.

Are they required by rule to drop-kick?

No, they have no restrictions - except that they mustn't keep the ball
for too long. A keeper having control over the ball must not be
disturbed by an apponent. A hold with one hand is control.

The first condition for offside is that an attacker on the defenders
half court is the first player from the keeper. The second condition is
that he must influence the play or disturb the keeper.

This means that in principle many attackers can run past all the
defenders with no off-side being called. In practice it will often be a
player near the sideline (or just away from the ball) being 'offside'
while the ball is played on the other side.

An offside player needen't interfere with the ball. Once an offside was
called because the attacker blocked the keeper's view thus preventing
him from catching (or pushing away) the ball. The player was in an
offside position.

With the use of VAR a discussion has arissen because now a player with 1
cm of his foot past the defenders will result in a call of offside, and
that is by many felt not to be the intention with the rule. A referee
wouldn't see such an offside.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Sam Plusnet

2024-10-08 18:35:45 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

Post by jerryfriedman
Most translators seem to punt (as we say in my
country) and call it a waterwheel, which made me
wonder what the mule was doing.
-- Jerry Friedman

What is implied by "punt"?

Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a gamble'
in colloquial BrE.
I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did not have
that in its list.

Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late
majesty would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she
would have noticed the Rugby Union connection.

Nobody provided OED definitions for "punt". Ross
provided them for "waterwheel".

Punt?
I'm pretty sure was a land somewhere to the south of (Ancient) Egypt.
Opinions vary as to exactly where it lay.

--
Sam Plusnet

lar3ryca

2024-10-08 21:54:02 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

Post by jerryfriedman
Most translators seem to punt (as we say in my
country) and call it a waterwheel, which made me
wonder what the mule was doing.
-- Jerry Friedman

What is implied by "punt"?

Given that this is AUE, 'taking a punt' can also mean 'to take a gamble'
in colloquial BrE.
I was a bit surprised that the OED definitions you provided did not have
that in its list.

Me too because "punter" is an expression even her late
majesty would have been familiar with. I'm not sure she
would have noticed the Rugby Union connection.

Nobody provided OED definitions for "punt". Ross
provided them for "waterwheel".

Punt?
I'm pretty sure was a land somewhere to the south of (Ancient) Egypt.
Opinions vary as to exactly where it lay.

Just spotted this online...

Don't try this in front of the kiddies.

Old Ma Hunt had rough-cut punt
Not a punt cut rough
But a rough-cut punt.

--
A man, a plan, a canal. Suez!

Peter Moylan

2024-10-09 10:52:04 UTC

Post by lar3ryca
Don't try this in front of the kiddies.
Old Ma Hunt had rough-cut punt
Not a punt cut rough
But a rough-cut punt.

I recently offered to teach the song to our choir. The offer was
rejected. In practice, of course, that verse is usually sung at parties
when nobody is sober.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

jerryfriedman

2024-10-07 14:39:02 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
Most translators seem to punt (as we say in my
country) and call it a waterwheel, which made me
wonder what the mule was doing.
--
Jerry Friedman

What is implied by "punt"?
The moment you raised this question, I was reminded of "Escalay - The
Water Wheel", title of a composition (and an early album) by Hamza El
Din. "Escalay" turns out to be Nubian for this device; one source says
it literally means "throw water".
Wikipedia seems to want to restrict "water-wheel" to those that are
driven by flowing or falling water to power mills etc. But why should it
not equally apply to those which use human or animal power to raise water?
1. A wheel driven by water and used to power machinery, esp. that of a
mill or pump. (12 citations 1408-.)
2. A wheel for raising water, esp. for irrigation, by means of buckets
fitted on its circumference. (9 citations 1591-)
(and just for completeness)
3. A paddle wheel on a boat or ship. Now rare. (5 citations 1787-)

Thanks, that's a point I hadn't considered. So it's not
as much punting as I thought.

However, I'd never seen "waterwheel" used that way. It
appears that the other people who haven't responded
haven't either. I do see a few examples at Google Books,
mostly in contexts where English-speaking readers are
unlikely to see them, and some appear to be water-
driven as well as water-lifting, so they'd lead the
reader down the same garden path I went down. So at
this point I'm still thinking I'll use another word,
probably "scoop-wheel".

Either way, though, I think I'll supply a note
directing readers to "noria" and "saqihay".

--
Jerry Friedman

jerryfriedman

2024-10-07 04:10:07 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
Is there a term you'd use when speaking English to mean
this ancient device?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saqiyah

Might depend on what you mean by efficiency. If it's
water lifted (as measured by increased potential energy)
versus energy input, I certainly don't find it obvious
that the whatchamacallit is more efficient than the
shaduf. But if it's water lifted from a well versus
time, I'll bet the saqiyah wins. Quite likely also
if it's water lifted versus cost of food or fodder.

Post by jerryfriedman
Would you have recognized any of the terms in the article
before reading it?

Apart from shaduf, no.

..

Thanks.

--
Jerry Friedman

occam

2024-10-07 07:27:42 UTC