Discussion:
The jig is up
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Tony Cooper
2019-10-29 12:54:11 UTC
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From today's newspaper about the situation in Syria:

"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."

In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.

When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Moylan
2019-10-29 13:02:12 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is
up, the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig"
is a dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying
to trick the enemy?
Trying to trick the enemy. But I believe that the word should have been
"rejigging".
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Young
2019-10-29 17:21:12 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is
up, the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig"
is a dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying
to trick the enemy?
Trying to trick the enemy. But I believe that the word should have been
"rejigging".
That's certainly so in BrE. I wonder if the longer version is the result
of the USA's tendency to be sesquipedalian?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-29 17:34:43 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is
up, the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig"
is a dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying
to trick the enemy?
Trying to trick the enemy. But I believe that the word should have been
"rejigging".
That's certainly so in BrE. I wonder if the longer version is the result
of the USA's tendency to be sesquipedalian?
I thought it was Britain that was "orientated" toward sesquipedalianism.

In fact, in some cases we use a longer word, and in some cases you do.
I don't know who would have more long words in a statistical study.
In this case, the OED dates the American "rejigger" to 1898 and the
mostly British "rejig" to 1948, so you chaps may have clipped the
American word.
--
Jerry Friedman
RH Draney
2019-10-30 06:47:06 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
That's certainly so in BrE. I wonder if the longer version is the result
of the USA's tendency to be sesquipedalian?
I thought it was Britain that was "orientated" toward sesquipedalianism.
In fact, in some cases we use a longer word, and in some cases you do.
I don't know who would have more long words in a statistical study.
I'd be willing to bet that BrE wins that contest:

AmE honor/color/favor < BrE honour/colour/favour
AmE canceled/traveler < BrE cancelled/traveller
AmE aging/routing < BrE ageing/routeing
AmE judgment < BrE judgement
AmE program < BrE programme
AmE jewelry < BrE jewellery
AmE specialty < BrE speciality
AmE aluminum < BrE aluminium
AmE eon/encyclopedia/estrogen < BrE aeon/encyclopaedia/oestrogen
AmE catalog/dialog < BrE catalogue/dialogue
AmE dove < BrE dived
AmE ass < BrE arse
AmE check < BrE cheque
AmE chili < BrE chilli
AmE donut < BrE doughnut
AmE draft < BrE draught

....r
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-30 08:44:24 UTC
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Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
That's certainly so in BrE. I wonder if the longer version is the result
of the USA's tendency to be sesquipedalian?
I thought it was Britain that was "orientated" toward sesquipedalianism.
In fact, in some cases we use a longer word, and in some cases you do.
I don't know who would have more long words in a statistical study.
AmE honor/color/favor < BrE honour/colour/favour
AmE canceled/traveler < BrE cancelled/traveller
AmE aging/routing < BrE ageing/routeing
AmE judgment < BrE judgement
AmE program < BrE programme
AmE jewelry < BrE jewellery
AmE specialty < BrE speciality
AmE aluminum < BrE aluminium
AmE eon/encyclopedia/estrogen < BrE aeon/encyclopaedia/oestrogen
AmE catalog/dialog < BrE catalogue/dialogue
AmE dove < BrE dived
AmE ass < BrE arse
AmE check < BrE cheque
AmE chili < BrE chilli
AmE donut < BrE doughnut
AmE draft < BrE draught
American English elevator >> British English lift
--
athel
Peter Young
2019-10-30 09:05:37 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
That's certainly so in BrE. I wonder if the longer version is the result
of the USA's tendency to be sesquipedalian?
I thought it was Britain that was "orientated" toward sesquipedalianism.
In fact, in some cases we use a longer word, and in some cases you do.
I don't know who would have more long words in a statistical study.
AmE honor/color/favor < BrE honour/colour/favour
AmE canceled/traveler < BrE cancelled/traveller
AmE aging/routing < BrE ageing/routeing
AmE judgment < BrE judgement
AmE program < BrE programme
BrE program in the computer sense.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE jewelry < BrE jewellery
AmE specialty < BrE speciality
AmE aluminum < BrE aluminium
AmE eon/encyclopedia/estrogen < BrE aeon/encyclopaedia/oestrogen
AmE catalog/dialog < BrE catalogue/dialogue
AmE dove < BrE dived
AmE ass < BrE arse
AmE check < BrE cheque
AmE chili < BrE chilli
AmE donut < BrE doughnut
AmE draft < BrE draught
American English elevator >> British English lift
Indeed. Most of the examples given are of short words, which can hardly be
sesquipedalian.

Two examples that spring to my slowly waking mind involve the intrusive
"at":

Transportation vs Transport
Dilatation vs dilation.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-30 09:31:28 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
That's certainly so in BrE. I wonder if the longer version is the result
of the USA's tendency to be sesquipedalian?
I thought it was Britain that was "orientated" toward sesquipedalianism.
In fact, in some cases we use a longer word, and in some cases you do.
I don't know who would have more long words in a statistical study.
AmE honor/color/favor < BrE honour/colour/favour
No difference in pronunciation. Neither is longer than the other.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE canceled/traveler < BrE cancelled/traveller
No difference in pronunciation. Neither is longer than the other.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE aging/routing < BrE ageing/routeing
No difference in pronunciation (except that some Americans pronounce
"route" like "rout"). Neither is longer than the other.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE judgment < BrE judgement
No difference in pronunciation. Neither is longer than the other.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE program < BrE programme
BrE program in the computer sense.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE jewelry < BrE jewellery
No difference in pronunciation. Neither is longer than the other.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE specialty < BrE speciality
AmE aluminum < BrE aluminium
AmE eon/encyclopedia/estrogen < BrE aeon/encyclopaedia/oestrogen
No difference in pronunciation. Neither is longer than the other.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE catalog/dialog < BrE catalogue/dialogue
No difference in pronunciation. Neither is longer than the other.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE dove < BrE dived
I'm not sure that increasing the number of strong verbs is a step in
the direction of greater simplicity.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE ass < BrE arse
Reflecting a difference in pronunciation, but neither is longer than the other.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE check < BrE cheque
I give him that one. "Cheque" is pseudo-French, and although the French
spell it that way (with a grave accent: chèque) they regard it as a
normal French spelling of English "check".
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE donut < BrE doughnut
I suspect that that originated as a advertising gimmick by a company
that thought that Americans wouldn't know how to pronounce doughnut.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE draft < BrE draught
OK. I won't argue about that.
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
American English elevator >> British English lift
Indeed. Most of the examples given are of short words, which can hardly be
sesquipedalian.
Two examples that spring to my slowly waking mind involve the intrusive
Transportation vs Transport
Dilatation vs dilation.
and, in my line of business, "enzymatic" against "enzymic". (However,
I'm not sure if the proportions of usage differ across the Atlantic:
the long form is common on both sides.)
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-30 13:57:36 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
Peter Young
2019-10-30 14:14:19 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
In BrE pronunciation, if you apply the usual rules, the first "i" in chili
would be long.

At least "chili" is better than "chile" for the spice. See elsethread some
way back.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-30 14:19:23 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
In BrE pronunciation, if you apply the usual rules, the first "i" in
chili would be long.
Have you some parallels to demonstrate that?

There's "chilly" < "chill" -- but that doesn't make the point.
Post by Peter Young
At least "chili" is better than "chile" for the spice. See elsethread
some way back.
Wasn't that Jerry giving an example of Spanish orthography leaking into
English in a mixed-language milieu? The country is usually pronounced
the same as the pepper.
Janet
2019-10-30 16:19:20 UTC
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Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
In BrE pronunciation, if you apply the usual rules, the first "i" in
chili would be long.
Have you some parallels to demonstrate that?
childish, chiming

Janet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
There's "chilly" < "chill" -- but that doesn't make the point.
Post by Peter Young
At least "chili" is better than "chile" for the spice. See elsethread
some way back.
Wasn't that Jerry giving an example of Spanish orthography leaking into
English in a mixed-language milieu? The country is usually pronounced
the same as the pepper.
Peter Young
2019-10-30 18:06:14 UTC
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Post by Janet
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
In BrE pronunciation, if you apply the usual rules, the first "i" in
chili would be long.
Have you some parallels to demonstrate that?
childish, chiming
Thanks, Janet. That saved me from having to use my brain.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-30 16:16:36 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
In BrE pronunciation, if you apply the usual rules, the first "i" in chili
would be long.
Yes. I would have expected PTD to know that.
Post by Peter Young
At least "chili" is better than "chile" for the spice. See elsethread some
way back.
Peter.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-30 18:04:37 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
In BrE pronunciation, if you apply the usual rules, the first "i" in chili
would be long.
Yes. I would have expected PTD to know that.
Really? What are "the usual rules"?
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-30 16:48:48 UTC
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Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
In BrE pronunciation, if you apply the usual rules, the first "i" in chili
would be long.
We manage with "lily" and "Philip", though, as well as with words that
may display "trisyllabic laxing" such as "silicon", "bilious", and
"militant".

Also, the final "i" marks "chili" as foreign, so the usual rules
may not apply.
Post by Peter Young
At least "chili" is better than "chile" for the spice. See elsethread some
way back.
We manage with "ballet", "chasm", etc.
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-30 17:06:34 UTC
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Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
In BrE pronunciation, if you apply the usual rules, the first "i" in chili
would be long.
We manage with "lily" and "Philip", though, as well as with words that
may display "trisyllabic laxing" such as "silicon", "bilious", and
"militant".
The obvious example is "Willy" and "wily". If there is no rule, how do
you deduce which spelling goes with which pronunciation?
Post by Jerry Friedman
Also, the final "i" marks "chili" as foreign, so the usual rules
may not apply.
Post by Peter Young
At least "chili" is better than "chile" for the spice. See elsethread some
way back.
We manage with "ballet", "chasm", etc.
--
athel
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-30 17:16:47 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
In BrE pronunciation, if you apply the usual rules, the first "i" in chili
would be long.
We manage with "lily" and "Philip", though, as well as with words that
may display "trisyllabic laxing" such as "silicon", "bilious", and
"militant".
The obvious example is "Willy" and "wily". If there is no rule, how do
you deduce which spelling goes with which pronunciation?
...

I didn't imply there was no rule; I implied we manage with exceptions.
By the way, I believe there are far more exceptions to the rule
you're talking about [*] with words that aren't of Old English origin,
a category that includes "chili/chile".

[*] I take it the rule is that in VCV, where V and C stand for vowel
and consonant letters (other than x), the first V represents a
"long" or "tense" vowel, with a fairly systematic exception for
trisyllabic laxing.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-30 18:08:32 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
In BrE pronunciation, if you apply the usual rules, the first "i" in chili
would be long.
We manage with "lily" and "Philip", though, as well as with words that
may display "trisyllabic laxing" such as "silicon", "bilious", and
"militant".
The obvious example is "Willy" and "wily". If there is no rule, how do
you deduce which spelling goes with which pronunciation?
Words do not exist in isolation. "Wily," like Janet's example "chiming,"
involves a base with an -e marker, which is what marks the vowel of the
previous syllable as "long" (AmE sense). When a vowel-initial suffix is
added, the e goes away but the base does not change its pronunciation.
John Varela
2019-10-30 20:32:05 UTC
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Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 17:06:34 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
In BrE pronunciation, if you apply the usual rules, the first "i" in chili
would be long.
We manage with "lily" and "Philip", though, as well as with words that
may display "trisyllabic laxing" such as "silicon", "bilious", and
"militant".
The obvious example is "Willy" and "wily". If there is no rule, how do
you deduce which spelling goes with which pronunciation?
The same way we do with most words in English: you just have to know
how it's pronounced. (Do we need to go through the cough, plough,
rough, etc thing again?)
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Jerry Friedman
Also, the final "i" marks "chili" as foreign, so the usual rules
may not apply.
Post by Peter Young
At least "chili" is better than "chile" for the spice. See elsethread some
way back.
We manage with "ballet", "chasm", etc.
--
John Varela
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-30 18:05:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
In BrE pronunciation, if you apply the usual rules, the first "i" in chili
would be long.
We manage with "lily" and "Philip", though, as well as with words that
may display "trisyllabic laxing" such as "silicon", "bilious", and
"militant".
Also, the final "i" marks "chili" as foreign, so the usual rules
may not apply.
I don't need to respond individually to the earlier replies, which
invoked monosyllables and morpheme boundaries, both of which bring
in "rules" of their own.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
At least "chili" is better than "chile" for the spice. See elsethread some
way back.
We manage with "ballet", "chasm", etc.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-10-30 15:01:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 06:57:36 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
How so?
Perhaps because a single-l suggests that the preceding vowel, "i", is
long as in "child".
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
HVS
2019-10-30 16:47:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:01:10 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Perhaps because a single-l suggests that the preceding vowel, "i", is
long as in "child".
That strikes me as one of those "rules" that wind up needing a bunch
of subsidiary rules to cover the exceptions - like "children", or
place-names like "Chilworth" and the "Chilterns".

Cheers, Harvey
Peter Young
2019-10-30 18:10:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by HVS
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:01:10 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Perhaps because a single-l suggests that the preceding vowel, "i",
is
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
long as in "child".
That strikes me as one of those "rules" that wind up needing a bunch
of subsidiary rules to cover the exceptions - like "children", or
place-names like "Chilworth" and the "Chilterns".
No exceptions needed. The usual "rule" is that an "i" before two
consonants is short. The two consonants don't have to be identical.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
John Varela
2019-10-30 20:50:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by HVS
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:01:10 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Perhaps because a single-l suggests that the preceding vowel, "i",
is
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
long as in "child".
That strikes me as one of those "rules" that wind up needing a bunch
of subsidiary rules to cover the exceptions - like "children", or
place-names like "Chilworth" and the "Chilterns".
No exceptions needed. The usual "rule" is that an "i" before two
consonants is short. The two consonants don't have to be identical.
Wild, child, mild, kind, wind (a clock), find, bind, etc.
--
John Varela
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-31 14:25:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by HVS
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:01:10 +0000, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Perhaps because a single-l suggests that the preceding vowel, "i",
is long as in "child".
That strikes me as one of those "rules" that wind up needing a bunch
of subsidiary rules to cover the exceptions - like "children", or
place-names like "Chilworth" and the "Chilterns".
No exceptions needed. The usual "rule" is that an "i" before two
consonants is short. The two consonants don't have to be identical.
Counterexamples like "child" and "wild" were already offered. And those
words are solidly monomorphemic.

Lookit that, in checking the attributions, I find that you quoted "child"
yourself!
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-30 14:31:22 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
That's certainly so in BrE. I wonder if the longer version is the result
of the USA's tendency to be sesquipedalian?
I thought it was Britain that was "orientated" toward
sesquipedalianism.
In fact, in some cases we use a longer word, and in some cases you do.
I don't know who would have more long words in a statistical study.
AmE honor/color/favor < BrE honour/colour/favour
No difference in pronunciation. Neither is longer than the other.
I think of "sesquipedalian" as related to writing--the word is a foot
and a half long on the page.

As you can see, if we wanted to do such a comparison, we'd have to agree
on rules. Number of letters, number of syllables, number of phonemes?
Is BrE "Tunisia" longer than AmE? Maybe even the number of stresses,
since English is stress-timed? One could make a case that AmE "PT" is
as long as or longer than BrE "physio".
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE judgment          < BrE judgement
No difference in pronunciation. Neither is longer than the other.
...

Anyway, "judgment" and "acknowledgment" are ridiculous, and
right-thinking Americans don't use them.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE dove              < BrE dived
I'm not sure that increasing the number of strong verbs is a step in the
direction of greater simplicity.
...

That's the first time anyone's mentioned simplicity.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE check             < BrE cheque
I give him that one. "Cheque" is pseudo-French,
and influenced by "exchequer"
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
and although the French
spell it that way (with a grave accent: chèque) they regard it as a
normal French spelling of English "check".
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili             < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
That's the first time anyone's mentioned better expressions of
pronunciation.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE donut             < BrE doughnut
I suspect that that originated as a advertising gimmick by a company
that thought that Americans wouldn't know how to pronounce doughnut.
I doubt it. I think it started as some combination of error and
attention-getting gimmick. But I don't have any evidence.

Right-thinking Americans write "doughnut", like "night" and "light".
--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-30 16:18:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
That's certainly so in BrE. I wonder if the longer version is the result
of the USA's tendency to be sesquipedalian?
I thought it was Britain that was "orientated" toward sesquipedalianism.
In fact, in some cases we use a longer word, and in some cases you do.
I don't know who would have more long words in a statistical study.
AmE honor/color/favor < BrE honour/colour/favour
No difference in pronunciation. Neither is longer than the other.
I think of "sesquipedalian" as related to writing--the word is a foot
and a half long on the page.
As you can see, if we wanted to do such a comparison, we'd have to
agree on rules. Number of letters, number of syllables, number of
phonemes? Is BrE "Tunisia" longer than AmE? Maybe even the number of
stresses, since English is stress-timed? One could make a case that
AmE "PT" is as long as or longer than BrE "physio".
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE judgment          < BrE judgement
No difference in pronunciation. Neither is longer than the other.
...
Anyway, "judgment" and "acknowledgment" are ridiculous,
Yes.
Post by Jerry Friedman
and right-thinking Americans don't use them.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE dove              < BrE dived
I'm not sure that increasing the number of strong verbs is a step in
the direction of greater simplicity.
...
That's the first time anyone's mentioned simplicity.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE check             < BrE cheque
I give him that one. "Cheque" is pseudo-French,
and influenced by "exchequer"
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
and although the French spell it that way (with a grave accent: chèque)
they regard it as a normal French spelling of English "check".
Post by RH Draney
AmE chili             < BrE chilli
The British English expresses the pronunciation better.
That's the first time anyone's mentioned better expressions of pronunciation.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE donut             < BrE doughnut
I suspect that that originated as a advertising gimmick by a company
that thought that Americans wouldn't know how to pronounce doughnut.
I doubt it. I think it started as some combination of error and
attention-getting gimmick. But I don't have any evidence.
Right-thinking Americans write "doughnut", like "night" and "light".
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-30 18:10:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
That's certainly so in BrE. I wonder if the longer version is the result
of the USA's tendency to be sesquipedalian?
I thought it was Britain that was "orientated" toward
sesquipedalianism.
In fact, in some cases we use a longer word, and in some cases you do.
I don't know who would have more long words in a statistical study.
AmE honor/color/favor < BrE honour/colour/favour
No difference in pronunciation. Neither is longer than the other.
I think of "sesquipedalian" as related to writing--the word is a foot
and a half long on the page.
As you can see, if we wanted to do such a comparison, we'd have to agree
on rules. Number of letters, number of syllables, number of phonemes?
Is BrE "Tunisia" longer than AmE? Maybe even the number of stresses,
since English is stress-timed? One could make a case that AmE "PT" is
as long as or longer than BrE "physio".
"Sesquipedalian" refers originally to poetic feet. A foot is two or three
syllables.
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-30 22:24:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[sesquipedalianism]
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE honor/color/favor < BrE honour/colour/favour
No difference in pronunciation. Neither is longer than the other.
I think of "sesquipedalian" as related to writing--the word is a foot
and a half long on the page.
...
Post by Peter T. Daniels
"Sesquipedalian" refers originally to poetic feet. A foot is two or three
syllables.
So "sesquipedalian" means 3 or 4.5 syllables? Doesn't seem all that
long.

The on-line sources I looked at didn't commit themselves about what
kind of foot Horace had in mind.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-30 14:19:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
That's certainly so in BrE. I wonder if the longer version is the result
of the USA's tendency to be sesquipedalian?
I thought it was Britain that was "orientated" toward sesquipedalianism.
In fact, in some cases we use a longer word, and in some cases you do.
I don't know who would have more long words in a statistical study.
AmE honor/color/favor < BrE honour/colour/favour
AmE canceled/traveler < BrE cancelled/traveller
AmE aging/routing < BrE ageing/routeing
AmE judgment < BrE judgement
AmE program < BrE programme
BrE program in the computer sense.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by RH Draney
AmE jewelry < BrE jewellery
AmE specialty < BrE speciality
AmE aluminum < BrE aluminium
AmE eon/encyclopedia/estrogen < BrE aeon/encyclopaedia/oestrogen
AmE catalog/dialog < BrE catalogue/dialogue
AmE dove < BrE dived
AmE ass < BrE arse
AmE check < BrE cheque
AmE chili < BrE chilli
AmE donut < BrE doughnut
AmE draft < BrE draught
American English elevator >> British English lift
Indeed. Most of the examples given are of short words, which can hardly be
sesquipedalian.
So is "rejigger" versus "rejig".

By the way, which is more sesquipedalian, "physical therapist" (two
medium-length words) or "physiotherapist" (one long one with fewer letters)?
Post by Peter Young
Two examples that spring to my slowly waking mind involve the intrusive
Transportation vs Transport
There's that.
Post by Peter Young
Dilatation vs dilation.
But not that, or is it some kind of medical jargon? Even in medicine,
this layman has only heard such terms in reference to pupils and
cervixes (or cervices, AHD says), and it's always been "dilated" and
"dilation".
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2019-10-30 15:53:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
Dilatation vs dilation.
But not that, or is it some kind of medical jargon? Even in medicine,
this layman has only heard such terms in reference to pupils and
cervixes (or cervices, AHD says), and it's always been "dilated" and
"dilation".
But then I've heard of people who refer to cerviacle body parts.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter Moylan
2019-10-31 14:52:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
Dilatation vs dilation.
But not that, or is it some kind of medical jargon? Even in
medicine, this layman has only heard such terms in reference to
pupils and cervixes (or cervices, AHD says), and it's always been
"dilated" and "dilation".
But then I've heard of people who refer to cerviacle body parts.
I've heard "cervical" rhyming with "cycle", and the OED gives that as
the first pronunciation in BrE. For some reason, it doesn't follow
the typical pattern of musical, magical, mathematical, physical,
topical, etc. But such is English.
On many occasions I've heard "cervical" pronounced as "cerviacle".
Sometimes even from medical people.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-31 15:00:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
Dilatation vs dilation.
But not that, or is it some kind of medical jargon? Even in
medicine, this layman has only heard such terms in reference to
pupils and cervixes (or cervices, AHD says), and it's always been
"dilated" and "dilation".
But then I've heard of people who refer to cerviacle body parts.
I've heard "cervical" rhyming with "cycle", and the OED gives that as
the first pronunciation in BrE. For some reason, it doesn't follow
the typical pattern of musical, magical, mathematical, physical,
topical, etc. But such is English.
On many occasions I've heard "cervical" pronounced as "cerviacle".
Sometimes even from medical people.
So it was on the BBC World Service a few months ago, when some new
procedure was being discussed.

My ophthalmologist's office doesn't say "dilatation."

Does anyone say "dilatated"?
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-31 15:35:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Dilatation vs dilation.
But not that, or is it some kind of medical jargon?  Even in
medicine, this layman has only heard such terms in reference to
pupils and cervixes (or cervices, AHD says), and it's always been
"dilated" and "dilation".
But then I've heard of people who refer to cerviacle body parts.
I've heard "cervical" rhyming with "cycle", and the OED gives that as
 the first pronunciation in BrE.  For some reason, it doesn't follow
the typical pattern of musical, magical, mathematical, physical,
topical, etc.  But such is English.
On many occasions I've heard "cervical" pronounced as "cerviacle".
Sometimes even from medical people.
But what's the correct pronunciation in Australia?
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2019-11-01 00:56:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Moylan
I've heard "cervical" rhyming with "cycle", and the OED gives that as
the first pronunciation in BrE. For some reason, it doesn't follow
the typical pattern of musical, magical, mathematical, physical,
topical, etc. But such is English.
On many occasions I've heard "cervical" pronounced as "cerviacle".
Sometimes even from medical people.
But what's the correct pronunciation in Australia?
['sV": vI ***@l]
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-01 13:39:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Moylan
I've heard "cervical" rhyming with "cycle", and the OED gives that as
 the first pronunciation in BrE.  For some reason, it doesn't follow
the typical pattern of musical, magical, mathematical, physical,
topical, etc.  But such is English.
On many occasions I've heard "cervical" pronounced as "cerviacle".
Sometimes even from medical people.
But what's the correct pronunciation in Australia?
Aha, as in America (up to differences in accent).
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2019-11-01 14:04:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Moylan
I've heard "cervical" rhyming with "cycle", and the OED gives
that as the first pronunciation in BrE. For some reason, it
doesn't follow the typical pattern of musical, magical,
mathematical, physical, topical, etc. But such is English.
On many occasions I've heard "cervical" pronounced as
"cerviacle". Sometimes even from medical people.
But what's the correct pronunciation in Australia?
Aha, as in America (up to differences in accent).
I should add that some people make a difference depending on whether it
describes the part between the body and the head or the (recently
discovered) ladyparts.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
CDB
2019-10-31 15:21:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Young
Dilatation vs dilation.
But not that, or is it some kind of medical jargon?  Even in medicine,
this layman has only heard such terms in reference to pupils and
cervixes (or cervices, AHD says), and it's always been "dilated" and
"dilation".
But then I've heard of people who refer to cerviacle body parts.
I've heard "cervical" rhyming with "cycle", and the OED gives that as
the first pronunciation in BrE.  For some reason, it doesn't follow the
typical pattern of musical, magical, mathematical, physical, topical,
etc.  But such is English.
Or Latin. According to _Lewis and Short_, the "i" in the oblique cases
of "cervix" is long (cervix, cervīcis; they didn't have "cervicalis" as
an entry, but "cervīcal", a pillow, is derived from "cervīcāle", which I
take to be a neuter form).

OTOH, while the adjective related to "topical" isn't listed either, the
two related words, "Topica" and "topice" both have a short "i".

<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=start&lookup=topic&lang=la>

That accounts for the BrE pronunciation of "cervical", and I suppose
analogy with the other examples you gave accounts for the other version.
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-31 15:44:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
...
Post by Peter Moylan
But then I've heard of people who refer to cerviacle body parts.
I've heard "cervical" rhyming with "cycle", and the OED gives that as
the first pronunciation in BrE.  For some reason, it doesn't follow
the typical pattern of musical, magical, mathematical, physical,
topical, etc.  But such is English.
Or Latin.  According to _Lewis and Short_, the "i" in the oblique cases
of "cervix" is long (cervix, cervīcis; they didn't have "cervicalis" as
an entry, but "cervīcal", a pillow, is derived from "cervīcāle", which I
take to be a neuter form).
OTOH, while the adjective related to "topical" isn't listed either, the
two related words, "Topica" and "topice" both have a short "i".
<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=start&lookup=topic&lang=la>
That accounts for the BrE pronunciation of "cervical",
Makes sense. I checked a number of other -ical words in the OED, and
they all either came from words with a short "i" in Latin or got the
"-al" in English or French. Of course there are many English words from
Latin with different vowel "quantities", such as "canine".
and I suppose
analogy with the other examples you gave accounts for the other version.
It seems possible that the original pronunciation of "cervical" was the
typical, logical one and then some learnèd medical people decided that
it should have a "long i" as in Latin.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Young
2019-10-31 17:37:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by Peter Moylan
But then I've heard of people who refer to cerviacle body parts.
I've heard "cervical" rhyming with "cycle", and the OED gives that as
the first pronunciation in BrE.  For some reason, it doesn't follow
the typical pattern of musical, magical, mathematical, physical,
topical, etc.  But such is English.
Or Latin.  According to _Lewis and Short_, the "i" in the oblique cases
of "cervix" is long (cervix, cervīcis; they didn't have "cervicalis" as
an entry, but "cervīcal", a pillow, is derived from "cervīcāle", which I
take to be a neuter form).
OTOH, while the adjective related to "topical" isn't listed either, the
two related words, "Topica" and "topice" both have a short "i".
<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=start&lookup=topic&l
ang=la>
That accounts for the BrE pronunciation of "cervical",
Makes sense. I checked a number of other -ical words in the OED, and
they all either came from words with a short "i" in Latin or got the
"-al" in English or French. Of course there are many English words from
Latin with different vowel "quantities", such as "canine".
and I suppose
analogy with the other examples you gave accounts for the other version.
It seems possible that the original pronunciation of "cervical" was the
typical, logical one and then some learnèd medical people decided that
it should have a "long i" as in Latin.
In The Mikado, the phrase "cervical vertebrae" has to be sung in the
non-current BrE pronunciation.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
CDB
2019-10-31 19:24:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by CDB
Post by Peter Moylan
But then I've heard of people who refer to cerviacle body
parts.
I've heard "cervical" rhyming with "cycle", and the OED gives
that as the first pronunciation in BrE. For some reason, it
doesn't follow the typical pattern of musical, magical,
mathematical, physical, topical, etc. But such is English.
Or Latin. According to _Lewis and Short_, the "i" in the oblique
cases of "cervix" is long (cervix, cervīcis; they didn't have
"cervicalis" as an entry, but "cervīcal", a pillow, is derived from
"cervīcāle", which I take to be a neuter form).
OTOH, while the adjective related to "topical" isn't listed either,
the two related words, "Topica" and "topice" both have a short
"i".
<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=start&lookup=topic&lang=la>
That accounts for the BrE pronunciation of "cervical",
Makes sense. I checked a number of other -ical words in the OED, and
they all either came from words with a short "i" in Latin or got the
"-al" in English or French. Of course there are many English words
from Latin with different vowel "quantities", such as "canine".
Post by CDB
and I suppose analogy with the other examples you gave accounts for
the other version.
It seems possible that the original pronunciation of "cervical" was
the typical, logical one and then some learnèd medical people decided
that it should have a "long i" as in Latin.
Way to deploy Occam's cissors.
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-01 14:39:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
...
Post by Peter Moylan
But then I've heard of people who refer to cerviacle body
parts.
I've heard "cervical" rhyming with "cycle", and the OED gives
that as the first pronunciation in BrE.  For some reason, it
doesn't follow the typical pattern of musical, magical,
mathematical, physical, topical, etc.  But such is English.
Or Latin.  According to _Lewis and Short_, the "i" in the oblique
cases of "cervix" is long (cervix, cervīcis; they didn't have
"cervicalis" as an entry, but "cervīcal", a pillow, is derived from
 "cervīcāle", which I take to be a neuter form).
OTOH, while the adjective related to "topical" isn't listed either,
 the two related words, "Topica" and "topice" both have a short
"i".
<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=start&lookup=topic&lang=la>
 That accounts for the BrE pronunciation of "cervical",
Makes sense.  I checked a number of other -ical words in the OED, and
 they all either came from words with a short "i" in Latin or got the
 "-al" in English or French.  Of course there are many English words
from Latin with different vowel "quantities", such as "canine".
and I suppose analogy with the other examples you gave accounts for
 the other version.
It seems possible that the original pronunciation of "cervical" was
the typical, logical one and then some learnèd medical people decided
that it should have a "long i" as in Latin.
Way to deploy Occam's cissors.
Beyond necessity, since you didn't say which pronunciation came first.
--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2019-11-01 19:55:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
...
Post by CDB
Post by Peter Moylan
But then I've heard of people who refer to cerviacle body
parts.
I've heard "cervical" rhyming with "cycle", and the OED gives
that as the first pronunciation in BrE. For some reason, it
doesn't follow the typical pattern of musical, magical,
mathematical, physical, topical, etc. But such is English.
Or Latin. According to _Lewis and Short_, the "i" in the
oblique cases of "cervix" is long (cervix, cervīcis; they
didn't have "cervicalis" as an entry, but "cervīcal", a
pillow, is derived from "cervīcāle", which I take to be a
neuter form).
OTOH, while the adjective related to "topical" isn't listed
either, the two related words, "Topica" and "topice" both have
a short "i".
<http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/resolveform?type=start&lookup=topic&lang=la>
That accounts for the BrE pronunciation of "cervical",
Makes sense. I checked a number of other -ical words in the
OED, and they all either came from words with a short "i" in
Latin or got the "-al" in English or French. Of course there are
many English words from Latin with different vowel "quantities",
such as "canine".
Post by CDB
and I suppose analogy with the other examples you gave
accounts for the other version.
It seems possible that the original pronunciation of "cervical"
was the typical, logical one and then some learnèd medical
people decided that it should have a "long i" as in Latin.
Way to deploy Occam's cissors.
Beyond necessity, since you didn't say which pronunciation came first.
First before the Big Shift, or first after? My impression of medieval
Latin is that most users were not big on quantity anyway, except maybe
(as you said elsethread) for poetry.

So I was persuaded by your suggestion.

Peter Moylan
2019-11-01 01:00:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Makes sense. I checked a number of other -ical words in the OED, and
they all either came from words with a short "i" in Latin or got the
"-al" in English or French. Of course there are many English words
from Latin with different vowel "quantities", such as "canine".
Post by CDB
and I suppose analogy with the other examples you gave accounts for
the other version.
It seems possible that the original pronunciation of "cervical" was
the typical, logical one and then some learnèd medical people decided
that it should have a "long i" as in Latin.
But does a Latin long i sound anything like the diphthong in English
"cycle"? That possibility would not have occurred to me.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
CDB
2019-11-01 13:16:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Makes sense. I checked a number of other -ical words in the OED,
and they all either came from words with a short "i" in Latin or
got the "-al" in English or French. Of course there are many
English words from Latin with different vowel "quantities", such as
"canine".
Post by CDB
and I suppose analogy with the other examples you gave accounts
for the other version.
It seems possible that the original pronunciation of "cervical"
was the typical, logical one and then some learnèd medical people
decided that it should have a "long i" as in Latin.
But does a Latin long i sound anything like the diphthong in English
"cycle"? That possibility would not have occurred to me.
Not any more. The traditional pronunciation, reportedly used by Mr
Chips, had undergone the changes of the English vowel shift, producing
eg [bOnI fAIdI]* for "bona fide".

*approximately. I'm not really up on BrE pronunciations of Latin, and
anyway, that should be a "long 'a'" and isn't.
Peter Moylan
2019-11-01 14:24:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Makes sense. I checked a number of other -ical words in the OED,
and they all either came from words with a short "i" in Latin or
got the "-al" in English or French. Of course there are many
English words from Latin with different vowel "quantities", such
as "canine".
Post by CDB
and I suppose analogy with the other examples you gave accounts
for the other version.
It seems possible that the original pronunciation of "cervical"
was the typical, logical one and then some learnèd medical people
decided that it should have a "long i" as in Latin.
But does a Latin long i sound anything like the diphthong in
English "cycle"? That possibility would not have occurred to me.
Not any more. The traditional pronunciation, reportedly used by Mr
Chips, had undergone the changes of the English vowel shift,
producing eg [bOnI fAIdI]* for "bona fide".
*approximately. I'm not really up on BrE pronunciations of Latin,
and anyway, that should be a "long 'a'" and isn't.
The notion of a "long vowel" always confused me. The idea that "long"
meant "a vowel that says its name" always seemed to me to be an AmE
concept, because for me a long vowel always referred to length. (As in
[k&n] vs [k&:n], for example, a distinction that exists in AusE but not
in AmE.) Gradually, though, I am coming to terms with the idea that
there is a BrE pronunciation of Latin that uses the Great Vowel Shift.
I'm not comfortable with that because I never learnt Latin at school
(except with one term with an incompetent teacher). My Latin came from
training as an altar boy, and there "bona fide" would have come out, had
I encountered it, as [bOn@ fide]. And the "long i" would have produced
[sErviks], where "long" meant [i] rather than [I].
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-01 15:49:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by CDB
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Makes sense. I checked a number of other -ical words in the OED,
and they all either came from words with a short "i" in Latin or
got the "-al" in English or French. Of course there are many
English words from Latin with different vowel "quantities", such
as "canine".
Post by CDB
and I suppose analogy with the other examples you gave accounts
for the other version.
It seems possible that the original pronunciation of "cervical"
was the typical, logical one and then some learnèd medical people
decided that it should have a "long i" as in Latin.
But does a Latin long i sound anything like the diphthong in
English "cycle"? That possibility would not have occurred to me.
Not any more. The traditional pronunciation, reportedly used by Mr
Chips, had undergone the changes of the English vowel shift,
producing eg [bOnI fAIdI]* for "bona fide".
*approximately. I'm not really up on BrE pronunciations of Latin,
and anyway, that should be a "long 'a'" and isn't.
The notion of a "long vowel" always confused me. The idea that "long"
meant "a vowel that says its name" always seemed to me to be an AmE
concept,
it is
Post by Peter Moylan
because for me a long vowel always referred to length.
Such a concept isn't found in AmE dialects (or classroom teaching).
Post by Peter Moylan
(As in
[k&n] vs [k&:n], for example, a distinction that exists in AusE but not
in AmE.) Gradually, though, I am coming to terms with the idea that
there is a BrE pronunciation of Latin that uses the Great Vowel Shift.
I'm not comfortable with that because I never learnt Latin at school
(except with one term with an incompetent teacher). My Latin came from
training as an altar boy, and there "bona fide" would have come out, had
[sErviks], where "long" meant [i] rather than [I].
"Church Latin" itself differed throughout the church communities of Europe.

Note that in Classical, it would have been [sErwiks].
RH Draney
2019-11-01 17:25:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
(As in
[k&n] vs [k&:n], for example, a distinction that exists in AusE but not
in AmE.) Gradually, though, I am coming to terms with the idea that
there is a BrE pronunciation of Latin that uses the Great Vowel Shift.
I'm not comfortable with that because I never learnt Latin at school
(except with one term with an incompetent teacher). My Latin came from
training as an altar boy, and there "bona fide" would have come out, had
[sErviks], where "long" meant [i] rather than [I].
"Church Latin" itself differed throughout the church communities of Europe.
Note that in Classical, it would have been [sErwiks].
ITYM /'kErwIks/....r
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-01 18:13:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Peter Moylan
(As in
[k&n] vs [k&:n], for example, a distinction that exists in AusE but not
in AmE.) Gradually, though, I am coming to terms with the idea that
there is a BrE pronunciation of Latin that uses the Great Vowel Shift.
I'm not comfortable with that because I never learnt Latin at school
(except with one term with an incompetent teacher). My Latin came from
training as an altar boy, and there "bona fide" would have come out, had
[sErviks], where "long" meant [i] rather than [I].
"Church Latin" itself differed throughout the church communities of Europe.
Note that in Classical, it would have been [sErwiks].
ITYM /'kErwIks/....r
Of course. I'd fallen into the Church Latin trap! (Many varieties of which
would have [tsErviks], probably more than would have [tSErviks].
Jerry Friedman
2019-11-01 14:37:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Makes sense.  I checked a number of other -ical words in the OED,
and they all either came from words with a short "i" in Latin or
got the "-al" in English or French.  Of course there are many
English words from Latin with different vowel "quantities", such as
"canine".
Post by CDB
and I suppose analogy with the other examples you gave accounts
for the other version.
It seems possible that the original pronunciation of "cervical"
was the typical, logical one and then some learnèd medical people
decided that it should have a "long i" as in Latin.
But does a Latin long i sound anything like the diphthong in English
"cycle"? That possibility would not have occurred to me.
Not any more.  The traditional pronunciation, reportedly used by Mr
Chips, had undergone the changes of the English vowel shift, producing
eg [bOnI fAIdI]* for "bona fide".
*approximately.  I'm not really up on BrE pronunciations of Latin, and
anyway, that should be a "long 'a'" and isn't.
I wonder whether some British Latinists would have pronounced "bona"
with /eI/, at least if they were reading Virgil.

The first citation in the OED for "cervical" is from 1681, long after
the Great Vowel Shift, so whoever decided to pronounce it with /aI/ must
have been brought up with the idea that that's how you pronounce a Latin
long "i".
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2019-11-01 15:46:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Makes sense. I checked a number of other -ical words in the OED,
and they all either came from words with a short "i" in Latin or
got the "-al" in English or French. Of course there are many
English words from Latin with different vowel "quantities", such as
"canine".
Post by CDB
and I suppose analogy with the other examples you gave accounts
for the other version.
It seems possible that the original pronunciation of "cervical"
was the typical, logical one and then some learnèd medical people
decided that it should have a "long i" as in Latin.
But does a Latin long i sound anything like the diphthong in English
"cycle"? That possibility would not have occurred to me.
Not any more. The traditional pronunciation, reportedly used by Mr
Chips, had undergone the changes of the English vowel shift, producing
eg [bOnI fAIdI]* for "bona fide".
That's hardly justification for saying that a _Latin_ sound sounds like
the English version. Usually one would be inquiring about legitimate
pronunciations, not ones imposed by centuries of ignorance and rejection
of scholarship (Erasmus, anyone?).
Post by CDB
*approximately. I'm not really up on BrE pronunciations of Latin, and
anyway, that should be a "long 'a'" and isn't.
"Bonafide" meaning 'legitimate' is pure English.
Peter Young
2019-10-30 18:05:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
Dilatation vs dilation.
But not that, or is it some kind of medical jargon? Even in medicine,
this layman has only heard such terms in reference to pupils and
cervixes (or cervices, AHD says), and it's always been "dilated" and
"dilation".
I can assure you that American medical people talk about dilatation, as in
"vasodilatation", and sadly that usage is spreading Over Here.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-30 18:29:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Over Here.
Please don't follow that silly usage that a very frequent poster uses
very frequently. I can tolerate "over here", but not "Over Here".
--
athel
Peter Young
2019-10-30 19:46:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Over Here.
Please don't follow that silly usage that a very frequent poster uses
very frequently. I can tolerate "over here", but not "Over Here".
Sorry, that seemed to be the normal usage hereabouts. I shall have to post
a query to The Committee.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-30 19:59:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Over Here.
Please don't follow that silly usage that a very frequent poster uses
very frequently. I can tolerate "over here", but not "Over Here".
Sorry, that seemed to be the normal usage hereabouts. I shall have to
post a query to The Committee.
Peter.
It seems OK AFAIC, even if it originated from a VFP.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2019-10-31 14:27:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Over Here.
Please don't follow that silly usage that a very frequent poster uses
very frequently. I can tolerate "over here", but not "Over Here".
Sorry, that seemed to be the normal usage hereabouts. I shall have to post
a query to The Committee.
Athel seems to have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed yesterday.
Tony Cooper
2019-10-31 01:14:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:29:47 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Over Here.
Please don't follow that silly usage that a very frequent poster uses
very frequently. I can tolerate "over here", but not "Over Here".
Are you saying Your Lot shouldn't adopt the capitalization?
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Moylan
2019-10-31 03:46:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:29:47 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Over Here.
Please don't follow that silly usage that a very frequent poster
uses very frequently. I can tolerate "over here", but not "Over
Here".
Are you saying Your Lot shouldn't adopt the capitalization?
Their Lot is home to a well-known book that mentions a lot of Good
Things and Bad Things.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-31 10:47:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 03:46:44 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:29:47 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Over Here.
Please don't follow that silly usage that a very frequent poster
uses very frequently. I can tolerate "over here", but not "Over
Here".
Are you saying Your Lot shouldn't adopt the capitalization?
Their Lot is home to a well-known book that mentions a lot of Good
Things and Bad Things.
(probable whoosh)
I thought Lot was in the old bit; the Good News came later.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Young
2019-10-31 10:59:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 03:46:44 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:29:47 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Over Here.
Please don't follow that silly usage that a very frequent poster
uses very frequently. I can tolerate "over here", but not "Over
Here".
Are you saying Your Lot shouldn't adopt the capitalization?
Their Lot is home to a well-known book that mentions a lot of Good
Things and Bad Things.
(probable whoosh)
I thought Lot was in the old bit; the Good News came later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_and_All_That

I thought any fule knew that.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-31 13:59:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 03:46:44 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:29:47 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Over Here.
Please don't follow that silly usage that a very frequent poster
uses very frequently. I can tolerate "over here", but not "Over
Here".
Are you saying Your Lot shouldn't adopt the capitalization?
Their Lot is home to a well-known book that mentions a lot of Good
Things and Bad Things.
(probable whoosh)
I thought Lot was in the old bit; the Good News came later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_and_All_That
I thought any fule knew that.
Peter.
Ah; I wasn't about back then.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Moylan
2019-10-31 14:57:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Peter Young
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 03:46:44 GMT, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 19:29:47 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Young
Over Here.
Please don't follow that silly usage that a very frequent
poster uses very frequently. I can tolerate "over here",
but not "Over Here".
Are you saying Your Lot shouldn't adopt the capitalization?
Their Lot is home to a well-known book that mentions a lot of
Good Things and Bad Things.
(probable whoosh) I thought Lot was in the old bit; the Good News
came later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_and_All_That
I thought any fule knew that.
Ah; I wasn't about back then.
But surely you learnt some history, For example that King John was not a
good man; he had his little ways; and sometimes no-one spoke to him for
days and days and days.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2019-10-31 19:55:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
(probable whoosh)
I thought Lot was in the old bit; the Good News came later.
Certainly his wife was a pillar of the community, but this was a
reference to Sellar & Yeatman.
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-11-01 11:29:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
(probable whoosh)
I thought Lot was in the old bit; the Good News came later.
Certainly his wife was a pillar of the community, but this was a
reference to Sellar & Yeatman.
Seems I've a large gap in my education; I'll remedy it forthwith.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Young
2019-11-01 14:46:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
(probable whoosh)
I thought Lot was in the old bit; the Good News came later.
Certainly his wife was a pillar of the community, but this was a
reference to Sellar & Yeatman.
Seems I've a large gap in my education; I'll remedy it forthwith.
That would be a Good Thing.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Quinn C
2019-10-30 21:54:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
[snip]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
Dilatation vs dilation.
But not that, or is it some kind of medical jargon? Even in medicine,
this layman has only heard such terms in reference to pupils and
cervixes (or cervices, AHD says), and it's always been "dilated" and
"dilation".
I can assure you that American medical people talk about dilatation, as in
"vasodilatation", and sadly that usage is spreading Over Here.
Using a dilatator? Brr...

Maybe the one redeeming quality of the word is that it's autologic.
Extreme dilation could then be called "dilatatation".
--
American Ani DIFranco called her album "Dilate", not "Dilatate"
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-30 22:45:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
[snip]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
Dilatation vs dilation.
But not that, or is it some kind of medical jargon? Even in medicine,
this layman has only heard such terms in reference to pupils and
cervixes (or cervices, AHD says), and it's always been "dilated" and
"dilation".
I can assure you that American medical people talk about dilatation, as in
"vasodilatation", and sadly that usage is spreading Over Here.
OK, I've also seen "vasodilator" and "vasodilation", but not the
forms with the extra -at-.

As far as the books in Google Books are concerned, the longer form
was more common in British English, at least up to 2008. Of course
that doesn't say much about the conversations you've heard.

American:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=vasodilation%2Cvasodilatation&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=17&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cvasodilation%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cvasodilatation%3B%2Cc0

https://tinyurl.com/y6c5jmlw

British:

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=vasodilation%2Cvasodilatation&year_start=1800&year_end=2008&corpus=18&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cvasodilation%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cvasodilatation%3B%2Cc0

https://tinyurl.com/yyeagoqq

The OED gets a bit prescriptive in favor of "dilation":

"Improperly < DILATE v.2, which does not contain the verbal suffix
/-ate/, but a stem /-late/ from Latin /lātus/ broad, so that the
etymologically correct formation is /dilatation/. (Compare /coercion,
dispution/ for /disputation/, etc.)."
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2019-10-31 17:46:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Improperly < DILATE v.2, which does not contain the verbal suffix
/-ate/, but a stem /-late/ from Latin /lātus/ broad, so that the
etymologically correct formation is /dilatation/. (Compare /coercion,
dispution/ for /disputation/, etc.)."
Looks like being in favor of "dilatation" to me.
--
Perhaps it might be well, while the subject is under discussion,
to attempt the creation of an entirely new gender, for the purpose
of facilitating reference to the growing caste of manly women and
womanly men. -- Baltimore Sun (1910)
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-31 19:48:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Jerry Friedman
"Improperly < DILATE v.2, which does not contain the verbal suffix
/-ate/, but a stem /-late/ from Latin /lātus/ broad, so that the
etymologically correct formation is /dilatation/. (Compare /coercion,
dispution/ for /disputation/, etc.)."
Looks like being in favor of "dilatation" to me.
That's what I meant. Apparently I couldn't bring myself to type it.
--
Jerry Friedman
Adam Funk
2019-10-30 16:29:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
That's certainly so in BrE. I wonder if the longer version is the result
of the USA's tendency to be sesquipedalian?
I thought it was Britain that was "orientated" toward sesquipedalianism.
In fact, in some cases we use a longer word, and in some cases you do.
I don't know who would have more long words in a statistical study.
AmE honor/color/favor < BrE honour/colour/favour
AmE canceled/traveler < BrE cancelled/traveller
AmE aging/routing < BrE ageing/routeing
AmE judgment < BrE judgement
AmE program < BrE programme
AmE jewelry < BrE jewellery
AmE specialty < BrE speciality
AmE aluminum < BrE aluminium
To be fair, Davy (British) named it "alumium".
Post by RH Draney
AmE eon/encyclopedia/estrogen < BrE aeon/encyclopaedia/oestrogen
AmE catalog/dialog < BrE catalogue/dialogue
AmE dove < BrE dived
AmE ass < BrE arse
AmE check < BrE cheque
AmE chili < BrE chilli
AmE donut < BrE doughnut
AmE draft < BrE draught
....r
--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
Mark Brader
2019-10-30 18:33:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by RH Draney
AmE honor/color/favor < BrE honour/colour/favour
AmE canceled/traveler < BrE cancelled/traveller
AmE aging/routing < BrE ageing/routeing
AmE judgment < BrE judgement
AmE program < BrE programme
AmE jewelry < BrE jewellery
AmE specialty < BrE speciality
AmE aluminum < BrE aluminium
To be fair, Davy (British) named it "alumium".
Didn't all three names originate with him?
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "True excitement lies in doing
***@vex.net | 'sdb /unix /dev/kmem'" -- Pontus Hedman
Adam Funk
2019-10-30 18:53:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Adam Funk
Post by RH Draney
AmE honor/color/favor < BrE honour/colour/favour
AmE canceled/traveler < BrE cancelled/traveller
AmE aging/routing < BrE ageing/routeing
AmE judgment < BrE judgement
AmE program < BrE programme
AmE jewelry < BrE jewellery
AmE specialty < BrE speciality
AmE aluminum < BrE aluminium
To be fair, Davy (British) named it "alumium".
Didn't all three names originate with him?
I think you may be right, but I'm pretty sure the shortest form was
his first choice.
--
My choice early in life was either to be a piano player in a
whorehouse or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's
hardly any difference. ---Harry S Truman
J. J. Lodder
2019-10-30 08:15:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Peter Young
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is
up, the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig"
is a dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying
to trick the enemy?
Trying to trick the enemy. But I believe that the word should have been
"rejigging".
That's certainly so in BrE. I wonder if the longer version is the result
of the USA's tendency to be sesquipedalian?
I thought it was Britain that was "orientated" toward sesquipedalianism.
Why? The Brits are fully bipedalled by necessity,
because they don't have the guns
to shoot themselves in the foot with,

Jan
Rich Ulrich
2019-10-29 13:29:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
When we have a bunch of suitcases to fit into the trunk of a
car, we may have jigger them around to match shapes and holes.
I wonder if jiggering them is related to jiggling them.

If we have to add another piece, or swap one out, we
possibly can re-jigger what we have rather than unload
everything and start all over.

If we have heavy pieces in a trailer that is delivering to
several sites, we might re-jigger the load after each delivery
to keep the balance over the wheels, front-to-back, as
pieces are delivered. - Arranging, not just fitting.
--
Rich Ulrich
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-29 15:35:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
When we have a bunch of suitcases to fit into the trunk of a
car, we may have jigger them around to match shapes and holes.
I wonder if jiggering them is related to jiggling them.
As I observed today, when we had to persuade two children's bicycles to
fit into the boot.
Post by Rich Ulrich
If we have to add another piece, or swap one out, we
possibly can re-jigger what we have rather than unload
everything and start all over.
If we have heavy pieces in a trailer that is delivering to
several sites, we might re-jigger the load after each delivery
to keep the balance over the wheels, front-to-back, as
pieces are delivered. - Arranging, not just fitting.
--
athel
Horace LaBadie
2019-10-29 16:04:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
A jig is also a purpose-made device constructed to facilitate making
something else.

Oddly enough, "the gig is up" popped up recently in a book I have been
reading, as a play on the "jig" phrase.
Jerry Friedman
2019-10-29 16:48:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
The AHD says,

"/Informal/
To readjust or rearrange."

For "jigger" it has only

"To tamper with or manipulate (data, for example) so as to achieve
a desired result."

But M-W has a broader definition of "jigger"

"/intransitive verb/
: to jerk up and down

"/transitive verb/
: to alter or rearrange especially by manipulating
// /jigger/ an election district"

I don't hear "rejigger" every day or even every year, but it's
familiar to me.
--
Jerry Friedman
Bill Day
2019-10-30 14:45:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
I have heard it off & on for 60+ years, but seldom in a technical,
well defined context. The one exception is in a localized term for
fishing for squid. In that case it refers to the practice of
constantly 'jigging' a baited line up & down.
http://www.fao.org/3/t0511e/T0511E02.htm

As an aside, I also heard 'jigger' used by one group of kids as a
euphemism for a penis. I once did a search and found it in such a
list.

Oh... and in the nursery rhyme.. "Home again, Home again, jiggity-jog"

I'd expect the word to automatically appear just because it's easy to
fit and say when one can't think of some other term.

There is even a seldom heard folk song.. "Squid Jigging Ground"
--
remove nonsense for reply
Spains Harden
2019-10-30 15:11:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
As someone has mentioned upthread, a "jig" is (or was) a frame for holding
something steady while mechanical processes are applied to it. The jig
on a centre lathe (for example) enabled the lathe to make multiple
sweeps into the metal it was paring down - and that was back in the
1970s.

Do today's robots still find "jigs" useful?
John Varela
2019-10-30 20:44:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 15:11:38 UTC, Spains Harden
Post by Spains Harden
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
As someone has mentioned upthread, a "jig" is (or was) a frame for holding
something steady while mechanical processes are applied to it. The jig
on a centre lathe (for example) enabled the lathe to make multiple
sweeps into the metal it was paring down - and that was back in the
1970s.
I learned it that a "fixture" holds the work and a "jig" both holds
the work and guides the tool.
Post by Spains Harden
Do today's robots still find "jigs" useful?
No doubt, if we can assume that robots have opinions.
--
John Varela
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-30 15:17:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
I have heard it off & on for 60+ years, but seldom in a technical,
well defined context. The one exception is in a localized term for
fishing for squid. In that case it refers to the practice of
constantly 'jigging' a baited line up & down.
http://www.fao.org/3/t0511e/T0511E02.htm
As an aside, I also heard 'jigger' used by one group of kids as a
euphemism for a penis. I once did a search and found it in such a
list.
Oh... and in the nursery rhyme.. "Home again, Home again, jiggity-jog"
I'd expect the word to automatically appear just because it's easy to
fit and say when one can't think of some other term.
There is even a seldom heard folk song.. "Squid Jigging Ground"
Jiggers are sand fleas. HTH
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunga_penetrans
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2019-10-30 15:28:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 10:45:29 -0400, Bill Day
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
I have heard it off & on for 60+ years, but seldom in a technical,
well defined context. The one exception is in a localized term for
fishing for squid. In that case it refers to the practice of
constantly 'jigging' a baited line up & down.
http://www.fao.org/3/t0511e/T0511E02.htm
As an aside, I also heard 'jigger' used by one group of kids as a
euphemism for a penis. I once did a search and found it in such a
list.
Yes. That was mentioned in the TV show QI in the first episode of the
J series/season.
https://www.comedy.co.uk/tv/qi/episodes/10/1/

Jigger: Has 28 different meanings. It is a measuring device (a
jigger of rum), a handcar, a sail, a small weight, a snooker rest, a
flea, a prison cell, a boot-sole polisher, an old-looking person, a
distillery, a penis, a copper's knife, a potter's wheel, a back
passage, a lathe, a woman's coat, a sieve, a dancer, a pulley, a
door, a thingummy, a golf club, a ouija board, a policeman, and a
vagina.

I think it was the panellist Victoria Coren who commented that the
phrase "jiggery-pokery" could have a meaning based on two of the senses
of "jigger": penis and vagina.

The usual meaning of "jiggery-pokery" is
"Deceitful or dishonest ‘manipulation’; hocus-pocus, humbug".
Post by Rich Ulrich
Oh... and in the nursery rhyme.. "Home again, Home again, jiggity-jog"
I'd expect the word to automatically appear just because it's easy to
fit and say when one can't think of some other term.
There is even a seldom heard folk song.. "Squid Jigging Ground"
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Madhu
2019-10-31 14:48:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 10:45:29 -0400, Bill Day
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
I have heard it off & on for 60+ years, but seldom in a technical,
well defined context. The one exception is in a localized term for
fishing for squid. In that case it refers to the practice of
constantly 'jigging' a baited line up & down.
http://www.fao.org/3/t0511e/T0511E02.htm
As an aside, I also heard 'jigger' used by one group of kids as a
euphemism for a penis. I once did a search and found it in such a
list.
Yes. That was mentioned in the TV show QI in the first episode of the
J series/season.
https://www.comedy.co.uk/tv/qi/episodes/10/1/
Jigger: Has 28 different meanings. It is a measuring device (a
jigger of rum), a handcar, a sail, a small weight, a snooker rest, a
flea, a prison cell, a boot-sole polisher, an old-looking person, a
distillery, a penis, a copper's knife, a potter's wheel, a back
passage, a lathe, a woman's coat, a sieve, a dancer, a pulley, a
door, a thingummy, a golf club, a ouija board, a policeman, and a
vagina.
ud (i saw only one hit) its a theodolite (not just measuring rum) - it
could possibly be applied to a class of equipment involves setting up.
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I think it was the panellist Victoria Coren who commented that the
phrase "jiggery-pokery" could have a meaning based on two of the senses
of "jigger": penis and vagina.
The usual meaning of "jiggery-pokery" is
"Deceitful or dishonest ‘manipulation’; hocus-pocus, humbug".
Post by Rich Ulrich
Oh... and in the nursery rhyme.. "Home again, Home again, jiggity-jog"
I'd expect the word to automatically appear just because it's easy to
fit and say when one can't think of some other term.
There is even a seldom heard folk song.. "Squid Jigging Ground"
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-30 16:19:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
I have heard it off & on for 60+ years, but seldom in a technical,
well defined context. The one exception is in a localized term for
fishing for squid. In that case it refers to the practice of
constantly 'jigging' a baited line up & down.
http://www.fao.org/3/t0511e/T0511E02.htm
As an aside, I also heard 'jigger' used by one group of kids as a
euphemism for a penis.
Are there any words that can't be used as slang terms for penis?
Post by Rich Ulrich
I once did a search and found it in such a
list.
Oh... and in the nursery rhyme.. "Home again, Home again, jiggity-jog"
I'd expect the word to automatically appear just because it's easy to
fit and say when one can't think of some other term.
There is even a seldom heard folk song.. "Squid Jigging Ground"
--
athel
Adam Funk
2019-10-30 16:47:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
I have heard it off & on for 60+ years, but seldom in a technical,
well defined context. The one exception is in a localized term for
fishing for squid. In that case it refers to the practice of
constantly 'jigging' a baited line up & down.
http://www.fao.org/3/t0511e/T0511E02.htm
As an aside, I also heard 'jigger' used by one group of kids as a
euphemism for a penis.
Are there any words that can't be used as slang terms for penis?
The ones that are already reserved for ladyparts?
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
I once did a search and found it in such a
list.
Oh... and in the nursery rhyme.. "Home again, Home again, jiggity-jog"
I'd expect the word to automatically appear just because it's easy to
fit and say when one can't think of some other term.
There is even a seldom heard folk song.. "Squid Jigging Ground"
--
XML combines the efficiency of text files with the readability of
binary files.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2019-10-30 17:09:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
I have heard it off & on for 60+ years, but seldom in a technical,
well defined context. The one exception is in a localized term for
fishing for squid. In that case it refers to the practice of
constantly 'jigging' a baited line up & down.
http://www.fao.org/3/t0511e/T0511E02.htm
As an aside, I also heard 'jigger' used by one group of kids as a
euphemism for a penis.
Are there any words that can't be used as slang terms for penis?
The ones that are already reserved for ladyparts?
Well yes, I thought of that, but I expect there are some that are used
indifferently.
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
I once did a search and found it in such a
list.
Oh... and in the nursery rhyme.. "Home again, Home again, jiggity-jog"
I'd expect the word to automatically appear just because it's easy to
fit and say when one can't think of some other term.
There is even a seldom heard folk song.. "Squid Jigging Ground"
--
athel
Adam Funk
2019-10-30 18:52:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
I have heard it off & on for 60+ years, but seldom in a technical,
well defined context. The one exception is in a localized term for
fishing for squid. In that case it refers to the practice of
constantly 'jigging' a baited line up & down.
http://www.fao.org/3/t0511e/T0511E02.htm
As an aside, I also heard 'jigger' used by one group of kids as a
euphemism for a penis.
Are there any words that can't be used as slang terms for penis?
The ones that are already reserved for ladyparts?
Well yes, I thought of that, but I expect there are some that are used
indifferently.
Hmm. "Genitalia" but that's a medical term; "le sexe" in French ---
does that count as slang? I guess "thing" is unisex slang.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
I once did a search and found it in such a
list.
Oh... and in the nursery rhyme.. "Home again, Home again, jiggity-jog"
I'd expect the word to automatically appear just because it's easy to
fit and say when one can't think of some other term.
There is even a seldom heard folk song.. "Squid Jigging Ground"
--
Consistently separating words by spaces became a general custom about
the tenth century A. D., and lasted until about 1957, when FORTRAN
abandoned the practice. ---Sun FORTRAN Reference Manual
John Varela
2019-10-30 20:47:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 17:09:09 UTC, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
I have heard it off & on for 60+ years, but seldom in a technical,
well defined context. The one exception is in a localized term for
fishing for squid. In that case it refers to the practice of
constantly 'jigging' a baited line up & down.
http://www.fao.org/3/t0511e/T0511E02.htm
As an aside, I also heard 'jigger' used by one group of kids as a
euphemism for a penis.
Are there any words that can't be used as slang terms for penis?
The ones that are already reserved for ladyparts?
Well yes, I thought of that, but I expect there are some that are used
indifferently.
Yes. In the place where I spent my childhood and first learned such
words, "cock" was a ladypart. Then I went to school elsewhere and
was informed of my error.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Rich Ulrich
I once did a search and found it in such a
list.
Oh... and in the nursery rhyme.. "Home again, Home again, jiggity-jog"
I'd expect the word to automatically appear just because it's easy to
fit and say when one can't think of some other term.
There is even a seldom heard folk song.. "Squid Jigging Ground"
--
John Varela
Peter Moylan
2019-10-30 19:18:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Are there any words that can't be used as slang terms for penis?
The ones that are already reserved for ladyparts?
Thank you for the new word ladyparts.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Sam Plusnet
2019-10-31 02:07:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Are there any words that can't be used as slang terms for penis?
The ones that are already reserved for ladyparts?
Thank you for the new word ladyparts.
Here.
Have "ladygarden" at no extra charge.
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2019-10-31 10:50:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Are there any words that can't be used as slang terms for penis?
The ones that are already reserved for ladyparts?
Thank you for the new word ladyparts.
Here.
Have "ladygarden" at no extra charge.
I've recently (last night) encountered that for the first time in a book
that I am reading (-I never said I loved you- a humorous account of one
man's battle with depression).
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Adam Funk
2019-10-31 14:00:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Are there any words that can't be used as slang terms for penis?
The ones that are already reserved for ladyparts?
Thank you for the new word ladyparts.
I didn't invent it!
--
My choice early in life was either to be a piano player in a
whorehouse or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's
hardly any difference. ---Harry S Truman
Peter Moylan
2019-10-31 14:59:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Are there any words that can't be used as slang terms for penis?
The ones that are already reserved for ladyparts?
Thank you for the new word ladyparts.
I didn't invent it!
But it would be a sadder world if they didn't exist.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Katy Jennison
2019-10-30 17:42:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bill Day
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
The word that comes first to mind for me in those circumstances is
'tweak'. Thinking about it, I never say' jig', only 're-jig'.
--
Katy Jennison
GordonD
2019-10-30 19:21:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
I have heard it off & on for 60+ years, but seldom in a technical,
well defined context. The one exception is in a localized term for
fishing for squid. In that case it refers to the practice of
constantly 'jigging' a baited line up & down.
http://www.fao.org/3/t0511e/T0511E02.htm
As an aside, I also heard 'jigger' used by one group of kids as a
euphemism for a penis. I once did a search and found it in such a
list.
Oh... and in the nursery rhyme.. "Home again, Home again, jiggity-jog"
I'd expect the word to automatically appear just because it's easy to
fit and say when one can't think of some other term.
There is even a seldom heard folk song.. "Squid Jigging Ground"
My dad used to use 'jiggered' to mean 'broken' (that is, of a machine
rather than, say, a cup).
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
John Varela
2019-10-30 20:40:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 14:45:29 UTC, Bill Day
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 08:54:11 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
"jig" is a word that seems to just pop up in various contexts and with
various endings because it seemed to someone like a handy short term
for 'manipulating', 'adjusting' or otherwise trying to fit, assemble
or mess with an object or situation.
I have heard it off & on for 60+ years, but seldom in a technical,
well defined context. The one exception is in a localized term for
fishing for squid. In that case it refers to the practice of
constantly 'jigging' a baited line up & down.
http://www.fao.org/3/t0511e/T0511E02.htm
As an aside, I also heard 'jigger' used by one group of kids as a
euphemism for a penis. I once did a search and found it in such a
list.
Given the right context, stress, and facial expression, almost any
noun can mean "penis".

Also, a jigger is one and a half ounces, or a glass of that size.
Post by Rich Ulrich
Oh... and in the nursery rhyme.. "Home again, Home again, jiggity-jog"
I'd expect the word to automatically appear just because it's easy to
fit and say when one can't think of some other term.
There is even a seldom heard folk song.. "Squid Jigging Ground"
--
John Varela
Adam Funk
2019-10-30 15:35:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal
from positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
Measuring drinks.
--
I thought my life would seem more interesting with a musical
score and a laugh track. ---Calvin
Eric Walker
2019-10-31 04:26:49 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal from
positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
AHD5:

jig·ger 3 (jĭgər)
tr.v. jig·gered, jig·ger·ing, jig·gers
To tamper with or manipulate (data, for example) so as to achieve a
desired result.
[Probably frequentative of JIG1, to jerk up and down.]
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
b***@shaw.ca
2019-10-31 05:25:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Eric Walker
Post by Tony Cooper
"A big part of that complexity is the rejiggering of the battlefield
since Trump earlier this month ordered a full U.S. troop withdrawal from
positions along the Turkish border in northeastern Syria."
In the phrase "the jig is up", "jig" is a trick. When the jig is up,
the marks have figured out the ruse or trick. Otherwise, "jig" is a
dance, music to dance by, or a fishing lure.
When we "rejigger" the battlefield, are we dancing around or trying to
trick the enemy?
jig·ger 3 (jĭgər)
tr.v. jig·gered, jig·ger·ing, jig·gers
To tamper with or manipulate (data, for example) so as to achieve a
desired result.
[Probably frequentative of JIG1, to jerk up and down.]
Sometimes referred to as jiggery-pokery.

bill
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