How many kilometres is a country mile?

[occam]

It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at times,
when the ear catches them at just the right moment.

"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with kilometres.
It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large margin".

I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than a
town mile?

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at times,
when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with kilometres.
It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than a
town mile?

Maybe it's a Swedish mile (10 km) rather than a statute mile (1.609344
km).

-GAWollman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at times,
when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with kilometres.
It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than a
town mile?

(Just guessing). Maybe it's because walking a mile over a muddy field
takes longer than walking a mile along city streets.

[occam]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at times,
when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with kilometres.
It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than a
town mile?

(Just guessing). Maybe it's because walking a mile over a muddy field
takes longer than walking a mile along city streets.

I can think of several scenarios where that would not be true. Crowded
shopping streets for one. Here is a scheme to alleviate slow walking in
towns in the UK.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/07/are-pedestrian-fast-lanes-a-good-thing-liverpool

[Peter Young]

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at times,
when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with kilometres.
It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than a
town mile?

Old Irish story: A hiker asking an Irish couple how far it is to the next
town. The husband says "About five miles. The wife says, "Look how tired
he is. Tell him it's only four miles".

Peter.

[charles]

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at times,
when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with kilometres.
It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than a
town mile?

we have some table mats where the pictures are reproductions of old maps.
There are 3 scales of miles on most of them: "Great, "Middle" & "Small"

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at times,
when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with kilometres.
It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than a
town mile?

I think the idea is that country dwellers when asked by strangers for
the distance between two places will give a small number than the actual
distance.

OED:

country mile n. colloquial †the distance customarily thought of as
a mile in (a particular part of) the countryside, and typically
regarded as longer than a standard mile (obsolete); (hence,
frequently in figurative contexts) a long distance, a long margin;
cf. Irish mile n. at Irish adj. and n. Compounds 3.

Irish mile n. the customary length of a mile in Ireland, 2240 yards
(approx. 2048 metres) (see mile n.1 1a) (now historical); (now
chiefly colloquial) a long distance; an indeterminate or unfixed
distance; cf. country mile n. at country n. and adj. Compounds 4.

The standard mile is 1760 yards (approx. 1609 metres).

The OED comments:

The length of the mile has varied considerably at different periods
and in different localities, chiefly owing to the influence of the
agricultural system of measures with which the mile has been brought
into relation (see furlong n.). It was fixed by statute at 1760
yards (viz. 8 furlongs of 40 poles, each pole being 16½ feet) in
1592 (Act 35 Eliz. I, c. 6, s. 8), and in Britain is also called a
statute mile. This is also the legal mile in the United States. The
obsolete Irish mile was 2240 yards (approx. 2048 metres), and the
Scottish mile (obsolete by the late 19th century) was 1976 yards
(approx. 1807 metres) although values probably varied according to
time and place.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at
times, when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with
kilometres. It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large
margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than
a town mile?

I think the idea is that country dwellers when asked by strangers
for the distance between two places will give a small number than the
actual distance.

There's more to it than that. Rural dwellers usually don't have maps,
and they're probably not in the habit of memorising distances from their
car odometers, so any directions you get from them are full of
approximations.

When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go straight
for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the operative words
are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect precision.

[occam]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at
times, when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with
kilometres. It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large
margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than
a town mile?

I think the idea is that country dwellers when asked by strangers
for the distance between two places will give a small number than the
actual distance.

There's more to it than that. Rural dwellers usually don't have maps,
and they're probably not in the habit of memorising distances from their
car odometers, so any directions you get from them are full of
approximations.
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go straight
for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the operative words
are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect precision.

<smile> "dead sheep" is also quite operative in that last sentence. </smile>

I understand that there is imprecision of the [country-folk] statements.
What is not clear is why they are under-estimates (as implied in 'a
country mile').

[j***@mdfs.net]

Post by occam

Post by Peter Moylan
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go straight
for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the operative words
are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect precision.

<smile> "dead sheep" is also quite operative in that last sentence. </smile>

Not just in the country, that's a common trait in Sheffield.

Go past where the Hole In The Road used to be, past where C&A used to
be, then opposite where Marples used to be, go past what used to be
the Main Post Office, then behind what used to be Top Rank and
behind where the Coach Station used to be, just past where the
Swimming Baths were....

jgh

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by j***@mdfs.net

Post by occam

Post by Peter Moylan
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go straight
for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the operative words
are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect precision.

<smile> "dead sheep" is also quite operative in that last sentence. </smile>

Not just in the country, that's a common trait in Sheffield.
Go past where the Hole In The Road used to be, past where C&A used to
be, then opposite where Marples used to be, go past what used to be
the Main Post Office, then behind what used to be Top Rank and
behind where the Coach Station used to be, just past where the
Swimming Baths were....

The last time I visited Sheffield, I recognised (FSVO "recognised") the
railway station but after that I was entirely lost - despite having
lived there for a couple of years.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by j***@mdfs.net

Post by occam

Post by Peter Moylan
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go straight
for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the operative words
are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect precision.

<smile> "dead sheep" is also quite operative in that last sentence. </smile>

Not just in the country, that's a common trait in Sheffield.
Go past where the Hole In The Road used to be, past where C&A used to
be, then opposite where Marples used to be, go past what used to be
the Main Post Office, then behind what used to be Top Rank and
behind where the Coach Station used to be, just past where the
Swimming Baths were....

The last time I visited Sheffield, I recognised (FSVO "recognised") the
railway station but after that I was entirely lost - despite having
lived there for a couple of years.

I think I'd have that problem in Manchester.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 07:57:00 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by j***@mdfs.net

Post by occam

Post by Peter Moylan
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go
straight for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the
operative words are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect
precision.

<smile> "dead sheep" is also quite operative in that last sentence. </smile>

Not just in the country, that's a common trait in Sheffield.
Go past where the Hole In The Road used to be, past where C&A used
to be, then opposite where Marples used to be, go past what used to
be the Main Post Office, then behind what used to be Top Rank and
behind where the Coach Station used to be, just past where the
Swimming Baths were....

The last time I visited Sheffield, I recognised (FSVO "recognised")
the railway station but after that I was entirely lost - despite
having lived there for a couple of years.

I think I'd have that problem in Manchester.

I get vertigo there; that top-heavy tower gets on my nerves:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beetham_Tower,_Manchester#Architecture

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 07:57:00 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Sam Plusnet
[ … ]
The last time I visited Sheffield, I recognised (FSVO "recognised")
the railway station but after that I was entirely lost - despite
having lived there for a couple of years.

I think I'd have that problem in Manchester.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beetham_Tower,_Manchester#Architecture

It weren't there when I were a lad.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Wed, 23 Sep 2020 07:57:00 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by j***@mdfs.net

Post by occam

Post by Peter Moylan
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go
straight for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the
operative words are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect
precision.

<smile> "dead sheep" is also quite operative in that last sentence. </smile>

Not just in the country, that's a common trait in Sheffield.
Go past where the Hole In The Road used to be, past where C&A used
to be, then opposite where Marples used to be, go past what used to
be the Main Post Office, then behind what used to be Top Rank and
behind where the Coach Station used to be, just past where the
Swimming Baths were....

The last time I visited Sheffield, I recognised (FSVO "recognised")
the railway station but after that I was entirely lost - despite
having lived there for a couple of years.

I think I'd have that problem in Manchester.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beetham_Tower,_Manchester#Architecture

A building that hums in windy weather - but doesn't seem able to carry a
tune.
Also:
"The tower has views over the set of Coronation Street."
What more could anyone ask for?

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by j***@mdfs.net

Post by occam

Post by Peter Moylan
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go
straight for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the
operative words are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect
precision.

<smile> "dead sheep" is also quite operative in that last sentence. </smile>

Not just in the country, that's a common trait in Sheffield.
Go past where the Hole In The Road used to be, past where C&A used to
be, then opposite where Marples used to be, go past what used to be
the Main Post Office, then behind what used to be Top Rank and
behind where the Coach Station used to be, just past where the
Swimming Baths were....

The last time I visited Sheffield, I recognised (FSVO "recognised")
the railway station but after that I was entirely lost - despite
having lived there for a couple of years.

At least the
https://whatpub.com/pubs/SHF/494/fat-cat-sheffield-kelham-island
is still there.

[j***@mdfs.net]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by j***@mdfs.net
Go past where the Hole In The Road used to be, past where C&A used to
be, then opposite where Marples used to be, go past what used to be
the Main Post Office, then behind what used to be Top Rank and
behind where the Coach Station used to be, just past where the
Swimming Baths were....

The last time I visited Sheffield, I recognised (FSVO "recognised") the
railway station but after that I was entirely lost - despite having
lived there for a couple of years.

I was giving directions to the railway station. :)

[occam]

Post by j***@mdfs.net

Post by occam

Post by Peter Moylan
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go straight
for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the operative words
are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect precision.

<smile> "dead sheep" is also quite operative in that last sentence. </smile>

Not just in the country, that's a common trait in Sheffield.
Go past where the Hole In The Road used to be, past where C&A used to
be, then opposite where Marples used to be, go past what used to be
the Main Post Office, then behind what used to be Top Rank and
behind where the Coach Station used to be, just past where the
Swimming Baths were....

There is a tech solution for this: VR glasses for augmented reality
experiences. The glasses allow you to see not only what is there, but
superimpose a layer of what used to be there. I remember an article on
(tourist) applications of VR, where visitors to the Colosseum could
visualise the former glory of the edifice while walking around the
current structure.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by occam

Post by j***@mdfs.net

Post by occam

Post by Peter Moylan
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go straight
for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the operative words
are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect precision.

<smile> "dead sheep" is also quite operative in that last sentence. </smile>

Not just in the country, that's a common trait in Sheffield.
Go past where the Hole In The Road used to be, past where C&A used to
be, then opposite where Marples used to be, go past what used to be
the Main Post Office, then behind what used to be Top Rank and
behind where the Coach Station used to be, just past where the
Swimming Baths were....

There is a tech solution for this: VR glasses for augmented reality
experiences. The glasses allow you to see not only what is there, but
superimpose a layer of what used to be there. I remember an article on
(tourist) applications of VR, where visitors to the Colosseum could
visualise the former glory of the edifice while walking around the
current structure.

Some lawyer will make a fortune out of injury claims for people who trip
over parts of buildings which are no longer there.

[Dingbat]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at
times, when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with
kilometres. It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large
margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than
a town mile?

I think the idea is that country dwellers when asked by strangers
for the distance between two places will give a small number than the
actual distance.

There's more to it than that. Rural dwellers usually don't have maps,
and they're probably not in the habit of memorising distances from their
car odometers, so any directions you get from them are full of
approximations.
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go straight
for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the operative words
are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect precision.

In the countryside where my father was raised, they do that with time,
avoiding both the S'aka* (Indian) and Gregorian calendars.
Q. In which year?
A. In the year after some particular flood.
If you can't figure out which flood they're referring to,
you're in the dark.

* https://byjus.com/free-ias-prep/calendars-used-in-india/

[Ken Blake]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at
times, when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with
kilometres. It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large
margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than
a town mile?

I think the idea is that country dwellers when asked by strangers
for the distance between two places will give a small number than the
actual distance.

There's more to it than that. Rural dwellers usually don't have maps,
and they're probably not in the habit of memorising distances from their
car odometers, so any directions you get from them are full of
approximations.
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go straight
for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the operative words
are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect precision.

In the countryside where my father was raised, they do that with time,
avoiding both the S'aka* (Indian) and Gregorian calendars.
Q. In which year?
A. In the year after some particular flood.
If you can't figure out which flood they're referring to,
you're in the dark.

Does that mean that if you can figure out which flood they're referring
to, you're in the ark?

[Dingbat]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at
times, when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with
kilometres. It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large
margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than
a town mile?

I think the idea is that country dwellers when asked by strangers
for the distance between two places will give a small number than the
actual distance.

There's more to it than that. Rural dwellers usually don't have
maps, and they're probably not in the habit of memorising distances
from their car odometers, so any directions you get from them are
full of approximations.
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go
straight for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep",
the operative words are "for a while" and "about". Don't
expect precision.

In the countryside where my father was raised, they do that with time,
avoiding both the S'aka* (Indian) and Gregorian calendars.
Q. In which year?
A. In the year after some particular flood.
If you can't figure out which flood they're referring to,
you're in the dark.

Does that mean that if you can figure out which flood they're
referring to, you're in the ark?

If that floats your boat:-) That's among this puns on this list:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/comedians/funniest-puns-in-history/vesuvius/

[Cheryl]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at
times, when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with
kilometres. It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large
margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than
a town mile?

I think the idea is that country dwellers when asked by strangers
for the distance between two places will give a small number than the
actual distance.

There's more to it than that. Rural dwellers usually don't have maps,
and they're probably not in the habit of memorising distances from their
car odometers, so any directions you get from them are full of
approximations.
When you hear "Turn right where Ryan's pub used to be, then go straight
for a while. It's about a mile past the dead sheep", the operative words
are "for a while" and "about". Don't expect precision.

In theory, I believe country dwellers were expected to be used to
walking much longer distances than city dwellers, and so underestimated
how far things were. When I first moved to our local city, I discovered
that wasn't always true. Our rural people lived in small villages, and
so didn't need to go far. If they did need to go into the woods, they'd
use horses or snowmobiles or later, ATVs. My new city friends, not from
families with a car for the use of the teenagers, would often walk quite
long distances rather than use the infrequent services of the local buses.

[Joy Beeson]

Post by Cheryl
In theory, I believe country dwellers were expected to be used to
walking much longer distances than city dwellers, and so underestimated
how far things were. When I first moved to our local city, I discovered
that wasn't always true. Our rural people lived in small villages, and
so didn't need to go far. If they did need to go into the woods, they'd
use horses or snowmobiles or later, ATVs. My new city friends, not from
families with a car for the use of the teenagers, would often walk quite
long distances rather than use the infrequent services of the local buses.

I wonder whether "country mile" could be akin to "pagan".

If I recall correctly, many of the old-system miles were much longer
than the statute mile, and changes tend to start in cities and
propagate outward.

[Mark Brader]

Post by Joy Beeson
If I recall correctly, many of the old-system miles were much longer
than the statute mile...

No, only the ones in German-speaking and Scandinavian countries.

[Dingbat]

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at times,
when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with kilometres.
It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than a
town mile?

I finally mustered some puns of my own:

Country folks' estimated distances that stick in the visitor's mind must
be underestimated ones which forced them to go the extra mile, which
must be what makes the country mile a mile long.

[RH Draney]

Post by Dingbat

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at times,
when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with kilometres.
It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than a
town mile?

Country folks' estimated distances that stick in the visitor's mind must
be underestimated ones which forced them to go the extra mile, which
must be what makes the country mile a mile long.

You'd believe that in a New York minute....r

[Dingbat]

Post by RH Draney

Post by Dingbat

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at times,
when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with kilometres.
It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than a
town mile?

Country folks' estimated distances that stick in the visitor's mind must
be underestimated ones which forced them to go the extra mile, which
must be what makes the country mile a mile long.

You'd believe that in a New York minute....r

I was surprised to learn that a New York minute is not minute:-)

[occam]

Post by Dingbat

Post by RH Draney

Post by Dingbat

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at times,
when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with kilometres.
It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than a
town mile?

Country folks' estimated distances that stick in the visitor's mind must
be underestimated ones which forced them to go the extra mile, which
must be what makes the country mile a mile long.

You'd believe that in a New York minute....r

I was surprised to learn that a New York minute is not minute:-)

I was surprised when I heard that the Minute Waltz was longer than a minute.

So we have: a New York minute < a moment < a minute < A Minute Waltz

[Ken Blake]

Post by Dingbat

Post by RH Draney

Post by Dingbat

Post by occam
It is funny how some standard expressions strike you as odd at times,
when the ear catches them at just the right moment.
"...not by a country mile" has of course nothing to do with kilometres.
It just means "... by far" or " ... by a large margin".
I am not sure however why a country mile should be any longer than a
town mile?

Country folks' estimated distances that stick in the visitor's mind must
be underestimated ones which forced them to go the extra mile, which
must be what makes the country mile a mile long.

You'd believe that in a New York minute....r

I was surprised to learn that a New York minute is not minute:-)

Speaking of "minute" vs "minute," very few people realize that the
"minute waltz" is not not 60 seconds long. The "minute" in "minute
waltz" is MINE-yoot (small), not MIN-it (60 seconds).

[Mark Brader]

Post by Ken Blake
Speaking of "minute" vs "minute," very few people realize that the
"minute waltz" is not not 60 seconds long. The "minute" in "minute
waltz" is MINE-yoot (small), not MIN-it (60 seconds).

For that matter, I think very few people realize that a minute
(MIN-it) *is* so named for being MINE-yoot (small).

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Ken Blake
Speaking of "minute" vs "minute," very few people realize that the
"minute waltz" is not not 60 seconds long. The "minute" in "minute
waltz" is MINE-yoot (small), not MIN-it (60 seconds).

I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at breakneck
speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't clear whether the
performers were joking, or genuinely ignorant of the meaning.

[Dingbat]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake
Speaking of "minute" vs "minute," very few people realize that the
"minute waltz" is not not 60 seconds long. The "minute" in "minute
waltz" is MINE-yoot (small), not MIN-it (60 seconds).

The two have different plurals (see below).

Post by Peter Moylan
I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at breakneck
speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't clear whether the
performers were joking, or genuinely ignorant of the meaning.

You miss minutae when you cut minutes.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake
Speaking of "minute" vs "minute," very few people realize that the
"minute waltz" is not not 60 seconds long. The "minute" in "minute
waltz" is MINE-yoot (small), not MIN-it (60 seconds).

The two have different plurals (see below).

No they don't. See point 3 below.

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at breakneck
speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't clear whether the
performers were joking, or genuinely ignorant of the meaning.

You miss minutae when you cut minutes.

Three points:

1. "minutae" is only one of several spelling of that word. I prefer
"minutiae."

2. It's the plural of "minutia," not "minute."

3. The "minute" of "minute waltz" (MINE-yoot) is an adjective, not a noun.

[CDB]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake
Speaking of "minute" vs "minute," very few people realize that
the "minute waltz" is not not 60 seconds long. The "minute" in
"minute waltz" is MINE-yoot (small), not MIN-it (60 seconds).

The two have different plurals (see below).

No they don't. See point 3 below.

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at
breakneck speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't clear
whether the performers were joking, or genuinely ignorant of the
meaning.

You miss minutae when you cut minutes.

1. "minutae" is only one of several spelling of that word. I prefer
"minutiae."

I too was thinking of posting a correction here, but I saw in a slightly
later post that Dingbat is perfectly familiar with our preferred
spelling. I think here he may indeed have been giving "[pars] minuta
[horae]" its Latin plural.

Post by Ken Blake
2. It's the plural of "minutia," not "minute."
3. The "minute" of "minute waltz" (MINE-yoot) is an adjective, not a noun.

[Dingbat]

Post by CDB

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake
Speaking of "minute" vs "minute," very few people realize that
the "minute waltz" is not not 60 seconds long. The "minute" in
"minute waltz" is MINE-yoot (small), not MIN-it (60 seconds).

The two have different plurals (see below).

No they don't. See point 3 below.

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at
breakneck speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't clear
whether the performers were joking, or genuinely ignorant of the
meaning.

You miss minutae when you cut minutes.

1. "minutae" is only one of several spelling of that word. I prefer
"minutiae."

I too was thinking of posting a correction here, but I saw in a slightly
later post that Dingbat is perfectly familiar with our preferred
spelling. I think here he may indeed have been giving "[pars] minuta
[horae]" its Latin plural.

minuta means part. If you miss minutae, you miss parts. If you miss
minutiae, you don't miss parts but you might, say, neglect to step
on a pedal while playing a part where it's called for.

Post by CDB

Post by Ken Blake
2. It's the plural of "minutia," not "minute."
3. The "minute" of "minute waltz" (MINE-yoot) is an adjective, not a noun.

[Dingbat]

Post by Dingbat

Post by CDB

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake
Speaking of "minute" vs "minute," very few people realize that
the "minute waltz" is not not 60 seconds long. The "minute" in
"minute waltz" is MINE-yoot (small), not MIN-it (60 seconds).

The two have different plurals (see below).

No they don't. See point 3 below.

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at
breakneck speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't clear
whether the performers were joking, or genuinely ignorant of the
meaning.

You miss minutae when you cut minutes.

1. "minutae" is only one of several spelling of that word. I prefer
"minutiae."

I too was thinking of posting a correction here, but I saw in a slightly
later post that Dingbat is perfectly familiar with our preferred
spelling. I think here he may indeed have been giving "[pars] minuta
[horae]" its Latin plural.

minuta means part. If you miss minutae, you miss parts. If you miss
minutiae, you don't miss parts but you might, say, neglect to step
on a pedal while playing a part where it's called for.

Well, you're right to introduce pars. Pars minuta means something like
fractional part. So, by minutae, I mean pars minutae.

Post by Dingbat

Post by CDB

Post by Ken Blake
2. It's the plural of "minutia," not "minute."
3. The "minute" of "minute waltz" (MINE-yoot) is an adjective, not a noun.

[CDB]

Post by Dingbat

Post by CDB

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake
Speaking of "minute" vs "minute," very few people realize
that the "minute waltz" is not not 60 seconds long. The
"minute" in "minute waltz" is MINE-yoot (small), not MIN-it
(60 seconds).

The two have different plurals (see below).

No they don't. See point 3 below.

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at
breakneck speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't
clear whether the performers were joking, or genuinely
ignorant of the meaning.

You miss minutae when you cut minutes.

1. "minutae" is only one of several spelling of that word. I
prefer "minutiae."

I too was thinking of posting a correction here, but I saw in a
slightly later post that Dingbat is perfectly familiar with our
preferred spelling. I think here he may indeed have been giving
"[pars] minuta [horae]" its Latin plural.

minuta means part. If you miss minutae, you miss parts. If you miss
minutiae, you don't miss parts but you might, say, neglect to step on
a pedal while playing a part where it's called for.

"Minuta" is the feminine nominative singular form of the word "minutus",
which means "small". The English adjective "minute" is a borrowing of
that word.

The word "pars" means "part". The "minute" that is made up of 60
seconds is a shortened form of "minuta pars horae", "small part of an hour".

The "second" that is 1/60th of a minute is short for "secunda pars
minuta (horae)", "secunda" being Latin for "second", "secondary", or
"following".

"Minutia" (plural form "minutiae") is Latin for "smallness". It is used
in the plural in English to mean "small things", "details".

Post by Dingbat

Post by CDB

Post by Ken Blake
2. It's the plural of "minutia," not "minute."
3. The "minute" of "minute waltz" (MINE-yoot) is an adjective, not a noun.

https://www.onelook.com/

[Dingbat]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake
Speaking of "minute" vs "minute," very few people realize that the
"minute waltz" is not not 60 seconds long. The "minute" in "minute
waltz" is MINE-yoot (small), not MIN-it (60 seconds).

I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at breakneck
speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't clear whether the
performers were joking, or genuinely ignorant of the meaning.

In the movie "Song of Love", Clara Schumann (played by Katherine
Hepburn) races through a piano performance for the Austrian
emperor (if I remember right), being in a hurry to breast feed
her baby.
https://www.geneva.edu/~dksmith/clara/clarafilms

[charles]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake
Speaking of "minute" vs "minute," very few people realize that the
"minute waltz" is not not 60 seconds long. The "minute" in "minute
waltz" is MINE-yoot (small), not MIN-it (60 seconds).

I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at breakneck
speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't clear whether the
performers were joking, or genuinely ignorant of the meaning.

In the movie "Song of Love", Clara Schumann (played by Katherine
Hepburn) races through a piano performance for the Austrian
emperor (if I remember right), being in a hurry to breast feed
her baby.
https://www.geneva.edu/~dksmith/clara/clarafilms

A few years ago, we went to a performance of Hansel & Gretal at
Glyndbourne. I discovered a few weeks later that the singer playing Hansel
was breast feeding her baby in the dressing room. Talk about "born in
atrunk".

[Dingbat]

Ken Blake wrote:
Minute Waltz doesn't mean 60 second Waltz.

I say: A publisher's translation meaning Miniature Waltz, not Short
Waltz. The literal translation would be Puppy Waltz, from Valse du
petit chien. Chopin composed it for a Polish Countess and named it
while watching a puppy chase its tail.

Peter Moylan wrote:
I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at breakneck
speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't clear whether the
performers were joking, or genuinely ignorant of the meaning.

I say:
They are showoffs, as per the Wiki. It says it typically takes 1.5-
2.5 minutes but some pianists attempt to show themselves as
virtuosos by playing 420 quarter notes per minute to cut it to a
minute without missing minutiae.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_Waltz

In the movie Song of Love, Clara Schumann (played by Katherine Hepburn)
races through a piano performance for the Austrian emperor (if I
remember right), being in a hurry to breastfeed her baby.
https://www.geneva.edu/~dksmith/clara/clarafilms

There are quarters that consider Clara as distinguished as, if not
more distinguished than, Robert. See this NY Times article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/arts/music/clara-schumann.html

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Thursday, September 24, 2020 at 4:10:48 AM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:

Where did these Brader-style attributions come from?

Post by Dingbat
Minute Waltz doesn't mean 60 second Waltz.
I say: A publisher's translation meaning Miniature Waltz, not Short
Waltz. The literal translation would be Puppy Waltz, from Valse du
petit chien. Chopin composed it for a Polish Countess and named it
while watching a puppy chase its tail.
I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at breakneck
speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't clear whether the
performers were joking, or genuinely ignorant of the meaning.
They are showoffs, as per the Wiki. It says it typically takes 1.5-
2.5 minutes but some pianists attempt to show themselves as
virtuosos by playing 420 quarter notes per minute to cut it to a
minute without missing minutiae.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minute_Waltz

Doesn't Streisand sing it in one minute?

Post by Dingbat
In the movie Song of Love, Clara Schumann (played by Katherine Hepburn)
races through a piano performance for the Austrian emperor (if I
remember right), being in a hurry to breastfeed her baby.
https://www.geneva.edu/~dksmith/clara/clarafilms
There are quarters that consider Clara as distinguished as, if not
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/28/arts/music/clara-schumann.html

She was certainly a better pianist! (One of the finest of the 19th
century.) Her pupils may have achieved greater success than Liszt's
(quite a few of both made recordings, and there have been collections
of them from which one can supposedly discover something about their
mentors' performances). Not enough of her compositions are available
to make comparison of her and Robert's work meaningful.

[Lewis]

Post by Dingbat
Minute Waltz doesn't mean 60 second Waltz.
I say: A publisher's translation meaning Miniature Waltz, not Short
Waltz. The literal translation would be Puppy Waltz, from Valse du
petit chien. Chopin composed it for a Polish Countess and named it
while watching a puppy chase its tail.
I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at breakneck
speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't clear whether the
performers were joking, or genuinely ignorant of the meaning.

I'm sure the performers knew the proper timing for the music and were
having fun.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake
Speaking of "minute" vs "minute," very few people realize that the
"minute waltz" is not not 60 seconds long. The "minute" in "minute
waltz" is MINE-yoot (small), not MIN-it (60 seconds).

I've seen some performances of the Minute Waltz that went at breakneck
speed in order to finish in a minute. It wasn't clear whether the
performers were joking, or genuinely ignorant of the meaning.

If I had to to guess, I'd guess the latter.