Discussion:
Suicide
(too old to reply)
David Kleinecke
2021-02-26 19:18:23 UTC
Permalink
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.

John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?

There is always "killed himself".
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-02-26 19:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
There is always "killed himself".
It's not what I would usually say, but it's OK.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Jerry Friedman
2021-02-26 19:34:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
Oh, the gymnastics coach who was charged with human trafficking and
sexual assault. I see Wikipedia has "died by suicide". I feel sure I've seen
it before, but I'd have gone for "committed suicide" in that context.

Here's an article that I haven't read: "Why mental health advocates use
the words 'died by suicide'".

https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
--
Jerry Friedman
occam
2021-02-26 19:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
Oh, the gymnastics coach who was charged with human trafficking and
sexual assault. I see Wikipedia has "died by suicide". I feel sure I've seen
it before, but I'd have gone for "committed suicide" in that context.
Here's an article that I haven't read: "Why mental health advocates use
the words 'died by suicide'".
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
Why euphemistic? It's a pretty good good procedural description of what
takes place.
Jerry Friedman
2021-02-26 19:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
Oh, the gymnastics coach who was charged with human trafficking and
sexual assault. I see Wikipedia has "died by suicide". I feel sure I've seen
it before, but I'd have gone for "committed suicide" in that context.
Here's an article that I haven't read: "Why mental health advocates use
the words 'died by suicide'".
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
Why euphemistic? It's a pretty good good procedural description of what
takes place.
Only somewhat. "Took" is less direct than "killed" and doesn't have the
criminal connotations of "committed".
--
Jerry Friedman
Bebercito
2021-02-26 20:06:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
Oh, the gymnastics coach who was charged with human trafficking and
sexual assault. I see Wikipedia has "died by suicide". I feel sure I've seen
it before, but I'd have gone for "committed suicide" in that context.
Here's an article that I haven't read: "Why mental health advocates use
the words 'died by suicide'".
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
Why euphemistic? It's a pretty good good procedural description of what
takes place.
Only somewhat. "Took" is less direct than "killed" and doesn't have the
criminal connotations of "committed".
It doesn't have to have criminal connotations, as suicide is generally
(except maybe in some US States?) no long considered a crime, and
no one is prosecuted for a failed suicide attempt (let alone a
successful one).
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2021-02-26 21:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bebercito
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
...
Post by Bebercito
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
Why euphemistic? It's a pretty good good procedural description of what
takes place.
Only somewhat. "Took" is less direct than "killed" and doesn't have the
criminal connotations of "committed".
It doesn't have to have criminal connotations, as suicide is generally
(except maybe in some US States?) no long considered a crime, and
no one is prosecuted for a failed suicide attempt (let alone a
successful one).
The criminal connotations come from the frequent use of "committed" for
crimes.

According to Wikipedia, suicide is no longer considered a crime in any U.S.
state. According to the same article, a man was convicted of attempting
suicide in Maryland in 2018, though there was doubt about whether
attempting suicide was really a crime there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Moylan
2021-02-27 02:03:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Bebercito
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
...
Post by Bebercito
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
Why euphemistic? It's a pretty good good procedural description of what
takes place.
Only somewhat. "Took" is less direct than "killed" and doesn't have the
criminal connotations of "committed".
It doesn't have to have criminal connotations, as suicide is generally
(except maybe in some US States?) no long considered a crime, and
no one is prosecuted for a failed suicide attempt (let alone a
successful one).
The criminal connotations come from the frequent use of "committed" for
crimes.
According to Wikipedia, suicide is no longer considered a crime in any U.S.
state. According to the same article, a man was convicted of attempting
suicide in Maryland in 2018, though there was doubt about whether
attempting suicide was really a crime there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation
Britain used to have the death penalty for attempted suicide, but only
if the attempt failed. A successful suicide was never charged.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2021-02-27 08:52:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
[ … ]
Britain used to have the death penalty for attempted suicide, but only
if the attempt failed. A successful suicide was never charged.
No, but if there was only one survivor of a suicide pact that survivor
was charged with murder.

A moral question arises from the case of the writer Arthur Koestler.
It's not certain that he bullied his wife into a suicide pact, but some
of those in a position to know think he did. She was much younger than
he was and in good health. Whatever one may think of the legal point of
view, from a moral point of view it seems inexcusable to establish a
suicide pact with someone much younger and in good health. Koestler is
not usually regarded as a murderer, but maybe he should be.
--
Athel -- British, living in France for 34 years
Peter T. Daniels
2021-02-27 14:18:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
No, but if there was only one survivor of a suicide pact that survivor
was charged with murder.
"Suicide pact" looks like a euphemism for "murder-suicide."
Ken Blake
2021-02-27 15:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Bebercito
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
...
Post by Bebercito
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
Why euphemistic? It's a pretty good good procedural description of what
takes place.
Only somewhat. "Took" is less direct than "killed" and doesn't have the
criminal connotations of "committed".
It doesn't have to have criminal connotations, as suicide is generally
(except maybe in some US States?) no long considered a crime, and
no one is prosecuted for a failed suicide attempt (let alone a
successful one).
The criminal connotations come from the frequent use of "committed" for
crimes.
According to Wikipedia, suicide is no longer considered a crime in any U.S.
state. According to the same article, a man was convicted of attempting
suicide in Maryland in 2018, though there was doubt about whether
attempting suicide was really a crime there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation
Britain used to have the death penalty for attempted suicide, but only
if the attempt failed.
Did everyone arrested plead guilty?
--
Ken
Bebercito
2021-02-27 15:51:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Bebercito
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
...
Post by Bebercito
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
Why euphemistic? It's a pretty good good procedural description of what
takes place.
Only somewhat. "Took" is less direct than "killed" and doesn't have the
criminal connotations of "committed".
It doesn't have to have criminal connotations, as suicide is generally
(except maybe in some US States?) no long considered a crime, and
no one is prosecuted for a failed suicide attempt (let alone a
successful one).
The criminal connotations come from the frequent use of "committed" for
crimes.
According to Wikipedia, suicide is no longer considered a crime in any U.S.
state. According to the same article, a man was convicted of attempting
suicide in Maryland in 2018, though there was doubt about whether
attempting suicide was really a crime there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_legislation
Britain used to have the death penalty for attempted suicide, but only
if the attempt failed.
A rare case whereby the offender is both convicted and reprieved
(from "life penalty").
Post by Peter Moylan
A successful suicide was never charged.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Lewis
2021-02-26 22:53:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bebercito
Post by occam
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
Oh, the gymnastics coach who was charged with human trafficking and
sexual assault. I see Wikipedia has "died by suicide". I feel sure I've seen
it before, but I'd have gone for "committed suicide" in that context.
Here's an article that I haven't read: "Why mental health advocates use
the words 'died by suicide'".
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
Why euphemistic? It's a pretty good good procedural description of what
takes place.
Only somewhat. "Took" is less direct than "killed" and doesn't have the
criminal connotations of "committed".
It doesn't have to have criminal connotations, as suicide is generally
(except maybe in some US States?) no long considered a crime, and
no one is prosecuted for a failed suicide attempt (let alone a
successful one).
Prosecuted? No, probably not. Arrested and incarcerated? Quite likely.
The word "illegal" in the US is a bit tricky because there are two
things it cane mean 1) is there a law against it 2) will you be charged
with a crimes.

Suicide, AFAIK, still fits the first case, and an unsuccessful suicide
will be carted off for at least a 72-hour psych hold, and may spend much
longer in custody than that.
--
My screesaver is tail -f /var/log/mail.log
Paul Carmichael
2021-02-27 13:18:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
Oh, the gymnastics coach who was charged with human trafficking and
sexual assault. I see Wikipedia has "died by suicide". I feel sure I've seen
it before, but I'd have gone for "committed suicide" in that context.
Here's an article that I haven't read: "Why mental health advocates use
the words 'died by suicide'".
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
"Topped himself" is shorter without being likely to offend the easily ofendibles.

Actually, I quite like "jumped ship".
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio
Peter T. Daniels
2021-02-27 14:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
Oh, the gymnastics coach who was charged with human trafficking and
sexual assault. I see Wikipedia has "died by suicide". I feel sure I've seen
it before, but I'd have gone for "committed suicide" in that context.
Here's an article that I haven't read: "Why mental health advocates use
the words 'died by suicide'".
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
"Topped himself" is shorter without being likely to offend the easily ofendibles.
Every athlete attempts to top themself every time they enter a competition.
Post by Paul Carmichael
Actually, I quite like "jumped ship".
Which seems to have been a fatal offense, back when navies were the
most important aspect of international defense.
CDB
2021-02-27 13:49:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world that
would have been "committed suicide". What do you think?
Oh, the gymnastics coach who was charged with human trafficking and
sexual assault. I see Wikipedia has "died by suicide". I feel sure
I've seen it before, but I'd have gone for "committed suicide" in
that context.
Here's an article that I haven't read: "Why mental health advocates
use the words 'died by suicide'".
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546
Executive
summary: don't blame the victim.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
Died by eir own hand.
Quinn C
2021-02-28 02:04:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world that
would have been "committed suicide". What do you think?
Oh, the gymnastics coach who was charged with human trafficking and
sexual assault. I see Wikipedia has "died by suicide". I feel sure
I've seen it before, but I'd have gone for "committed suicide" in
that context.
Here's an article that I haven't read: "Why mental health advocates
use the words 'died by suicide'".
https://www.nbcnews.com/better/health/why-mental-health-advocates-use-words-died-suicide-ncna880546
Executive summary: don't blame the victim.
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
Died by eir own hand.
"Chose death" may these days be more typical for medically-assisted
suicide, aka assisted dying. But I think I first heard it for someone
who killed themself decades ago. A literary author, maybe?
--
I found the Forshan religion restful. I found the Forshan
religious war less so.
-- J. Scalzi, Redshirts
Peter T. Daniels
2021-02-28 02:06:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
Died by eir own hand.
"Chose death" may these days be more typical for medically-assisted
suicide, aka assisted dying. But I think I first heard it for someone
who killed themself decades ago. A literary author, maybe?
Responding to the slogan "Choose life!" (which I don't think has
anything to do with the abortion debate)?
Stefan Ram
2021-03-07 22:32:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
A "jumper", in GB, is a sweater; in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
Ken Blake
2021-03-07 23:25:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Jerry Friedman
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
A "jumper", in GB, is a sweater;
It's a kind of sweater in the US too,
Post by Stefan Ram
in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
--
Ken
Stefan Ram
2021-03-07 23:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
From the Web, and not written by me:

|... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a
|firetruck and an ambulance, and possibly the police on the
|Tyne Bridge. I assume there was a jumper.

|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the
|police shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in
|the news about it yet, as I think it might ...

|The officers noticed that there was a "jumper" under the
|hood, an electric wire attached to the battery terminal and
|coil. A jumper enables a car to run without turning on the
|ignition by key.
Eric Walker
2021-03-08 07:33:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
|... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a |firetruck and
an ambulance, and possibly the police on the |Tyne Bridge. I assume
there was a jumper.
|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the |police
shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in |the news about it
yet, as I think it might ...
|The officers noticed that there was a "jumper" under the |hood, an
electric wire attached to the battery terminal and |coil. A jumper
enables a car to run without turning on the |ignition by key.
A "jumper" is indeed one who has or soon might jump from some height to
his or her death; it is not, however, a generic term for a suicide or
would-be suicide.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Ken Blake
2021-03-08 15:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Walker
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
|... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a |firetruck and
an ambulance, and possibly the police on the |Tyne Bridge. I assume
there was a jumper.
|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the |police
shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in |the news about it
yet, as I think it might ...
|The officers noticed that there was a "jumper" under the |hood, an
electric wire attached to the battery terminal and |coil. A jumper
enables a car to run without turning on the |ignition by key.
A "jumper" is indeed one who has or soon might jump from some height to
his or her death; it is not, however, a generic term for a suicide or
would-be suicide.
Yes, my point exactly, as I just said in another message. You put it
better than I did.
--
Ken
Snidely
2021-03-08 20:07:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Walker
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a |firetruck and
an ambulance, and possibly the police on the |Tyne Bridge. I assume
there was a jumper.
Post by Ken Blake
Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the |police
shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in |the news about it
yet, as I think it might ...
Post by Ken Blake
The officers noticed that there was a "jumper" under the |hood, an
electric wire attached to the battery terminal and |coil. A jumper
enables a car to run without turning on the |ignition by key.
A "jumper" is indeed one who has or soon might jump from some height to
his or her death; it is not, however, a generic term for a suicide or
would-be suicide.
The car-theft technique is also not generic for a suicide (and you have
to find a car old enough that the technique still works if you're
relying on it for a get-away; these days cars are more vulnerable to
bugs in the security software).

/dps
--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.
Ken Blake
2021-03-08 15:03:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
|... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a
|firetruck and an ambulance, and possibly the police on the
|Tyne Bridge. I assume there was a jumper.
|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the
|police shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in
|the news about it yet, as I think it might ..
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping off a
bridge, out a window, etc. But as far as I know, it's never used to
mean someone who commits suicide by any other means.
--
Ken
charles
2021-03-08 16:26:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
|... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a
|firetruck and an ambulance, and possibly the police on the
|Tyne Bridge. I assume there was a jumper.
|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the
|police shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in
|the news about it yet, as I think it might ..
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping off a
bridge, out a window, etc. But as far as I know, it's never used to
mean someone who commits suicide by any other means.
I can't see how it would apply to someone who, for example, shoots himself
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Tony Cooper
2021-03-08 16:47:30 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 08 Mar 2021 16:26:11 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
|... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a
|firetruck and an ambulance, and possibly the police on the
|Tyne Bridge. I assume there was a jumper.
|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the
|police shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in
|the news about it yet, as I think it might ..
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping off a
bridge, out a window, etc. But as far as I know, it's never used to
mean someone who commits suicide by any other means.
I can't see how it would apply to someone who, for example, shoots himself
It doesn't. It's used to describe someone who appears to be about to
jump off something - a bridge, for example - or someone who has
jumped.

There's a jumper on the Golden Gate!

The boat is searching the river for the jumper seen earlier on the
bridge.

No one has suggested that it describes suicide by any other method.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Ken Blake
2021-03-08 18:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 08 Mar 2021 16:26:11 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
|... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a
|firetruck and an ambulance, and possibly the police on the
|Tyne Bridge. I assume there was a jumper.
|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the
|police shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in
|the news about it yet, as I think it might ..
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping off a
bridge, out a window, etc. But as far as I know, it's never used to
mean someone who commits suicide by any other means.
I can't see how it would apply to someone who, for example, shoots himself
It doesn't. It's used to describe someone who appears to be about to
jump off something - a bridge, for example - or someone who has
jumped.
There's a jumper on the Golden Gate!
The boat is searching the river for the jumper seen earlier on the
bridge.
No one has suggested that it describes suicide by any other method.
???

Charles did, and that's what I replied to. See the quotation of what
Charles said above: "in the US, it's someone who's trying to commit suicide.
"
--
Ken
charles
2021-03-08 18:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 08 Mar 2021 16:26:11 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
in the US, it's someone who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
|... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a firetruck
|and an ambulance, and possibly the police on the Tyne Bridge. I
|assume there was a jumper.
|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the
|police shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in the
|news about it yet, as I think it might ..
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping off a
bridge, out a window, etc. But as far as I know, it's never used to
mean someone who commits suicide by any other means.
I can't see how it would apply to someone who, for example, shoots himself
It doesn't. It's used to describe someone who appears to be about to
jump off something - a bridge, for example - or someone who has jumped.
There's a jumper on the Golden Gate!
The boat is searching the river for the jumper seen earlier on the
bridge.
No one has suggested that it describes suicide by any other method.
???
Charles did, and that's what I replied to. See the quotation of what
Charles said above: "in the US, it's someone who's trying to commit
suicide. "
Not guilty. Some miss-attribution, I'd never say "In the US ..." since I
don't live there.

My comment was that you wouldn't call someone who shot himself "a jumper".
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Ken Blake
2021-03-08 18:54:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 08 Mar 2021 16:26:11 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
in the US, it's someone who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
|... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a firetruck
|and an ambulance, and possibly the police on the Tyne Bridge. I
|assume there was a jumper.
|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the
|police shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in the
|news about it yet, as I think it might ..
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping off a
bridge, out a window, etc. But as far as I know, it's never used to
mean someone who commits suicide by any other means.
I can't see how it would apply to someone who, for example, shoots himself
It doesn't. It's used to describe someone who appears to be about to
jump off something - a bridge, for example - or someone who has jumped.
There's a jumper on the Golden Gate!
The boat is searching the river for the jumper seen earlier on the
bridge.
No one has suggested that it describes suicide by any other method.
???
Charles did, and that's what I replied to. See the quotation of what
Charles said above: "in the US, it's someone who's trying to commit
suicide. "
Not guilty. Some miss-attribution, I'd never say "In the US ..." since I
don't live there.
My comment was that you wouldn't call someone who shot himself "a jumper".
Sorry. Yes, it was a mis-attribution. It was Stefan Ram.
--
Ken
Tony Cooper
2021-03-08 19:27:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 08 Mar 2021 16:26:11 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
in the US, it's someone who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
|... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a firetruck
|and an ambulance, and possibly the police on the Tyne Bridge. I
|assume there was a jumper.
|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the
|police shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in the
|news about it yet, as I think it might ..
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping off a
bridge, out a window, etc. But as far as I know, it's never used to
mean someone who commits suicide by any other means.
I can't see how it would apply to someone who, for example, shoots himself
It doesn't. It's used to describe someone who appears to be about to
jump off something - a bridge, for example - or someone who has jumped.
There's a jumper on the Golden Gate!
The boat is searching the river for the jumper seen earlier on the
bridge.
No one has suggested that it describes suicide by any other method.
???
Charles did, and that's what I replied to. See the quotation of what
Charles said above: "in the US, it's someone who's trying to commit
suicide. "
Not guilty. Some miss-attribution, I'd never say "In the US ..." since I
don't live there.
My comment was that you wouldn't call someone who shot himself "a jumper".
Sorry. Yes, it was a mis-attribution. It was Stefan Ram.
The post to which I replied contained a line by Stefan, but a) Stefan
is a "no one" when it comes to what is said in the US, and b) he's
invisible. And, I thought some of what he wrote might have been
trimmed in the thread progression.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Adam Funk
2021-03-09 08:29:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 08 Mar 2021 16:26:11 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
in the US, it's someone who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
|... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a firetruck
|and an ambulance, and possibly the police on the Tyne Bridge. I
|assume there was a jumper.
|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the
|police shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in the
|news about it yet, as I think it might ..
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping off a
bridge, out a window, etc. But as far as I know, it's never used to
mean someone who commits suicide by any other means.
I can't see how it would apply to someone who, for example, shoots himself
It doesn't. It's used to describe someone who appears to be about to
jump off something - a bridge, for example - or someone who has jumped.
There's a jumper on the Golden Gate!
The boat is searching the river for the jumper seen earlier on the
bridge.
No one has suggested that it describes suicide by any other method.
???
Charles did, and that's what I replied to. See the quotation of what
Charles said above: "in the US, it's someone who's trying to commit
suicide. "
Not guilty. Some miss-attribution, I'd never say "In the US ..." since I
don't live there.
My comment was that you wouldn't call someone who shot himself "a jumper".
Sorry. Yes, it was a mis-attribution. It was Stefan Ram.
Either way, I had just assumed that "by jumping off a bridge
(building, etc.)" was implied.
--
If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to
worry about the answers. ---Thomas Pynchon
musika
2021-03-08 19:04:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 08 Mar 2021 16:26:11 +0000 (GMT), charles
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ken Blake
in the US, it's someone who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way. From the Web,
and not written by me: |... walking across the Millennium
Bridge and could see a
|firetruck and an ambulance, and possibly the police on the
|Tyne Bridge. I assume there was a jumper.
|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the
|police shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in
|the news about it yet, as I think it might ..
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping
off a bridge, out a window, etc. But as far as I know, it's
never used to mean someone who commits suicide by any other
means.
I can't see how it would apply to someone who, for example,
shoots himself
It doesn't. It's used to describe someone who appears to be about
to jump off something - a bridge, for example - or someone who has
jumped.
There's a jumper on the Golden Gate!
The boat is searching the river for the jumper seen earlier on the
bridge.
No one has suggested that it describes suicide by any other
method.
???
Charles did, and that's what I replied to. See the quotation of what
Charles said above: "in the US, it's someone who's trying to commit
suicide. "
That was Stefan.
--
Ray
UK
Peter Moylan
2021-03-08 22:31:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping off a
bridge, out a window, etc. But as far as I know, it's never used to
mean someone who commits suicide by any other means.
I can't see how it would apply to someone who, for example, shoots himself
Or tops himself. Does that imply removal of the head?
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Paul Wolff
2021-03-08 23:24:19 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 9 Mar 2021, at 09:31:06, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping off a
bridge, out a window, etc. But as far as I know, it's never used to
mean someone who commits suicide by any other means.
I can't see how it would apply to someone who, for example, shoots himself
Or tops himself. Does that imply removal of the head?
A long drop and a short rope?
--
Paul
Madhu
2021-03-08 23:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Ken Blake
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping off a
bridge, out a window, etc. But as far as I know, it's never used to
mean someone who commits suicide by any other means.
I can't see how it would apply to someone who, for example, shoots himself
well he's jumping the gun, ...
Sam Plusnet
2021-03-08 19:26:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
in the US, it's someone
   who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
|... walking across the Millennium Bridge and could see a
|firetruck and an ambulance, and possibly the police on the
|Tyne Bridge. I assume there was a jumper.
|Apparently there was a jumper on the Casco Bay Bridge and the
|police shut it down to traffic. I haven't seen anything in
|the news about it yet, as I think it might ..
Yes, "jumper" is used of someone who commits suicide by jumping off a
bridge, out a window, etc. But  as far as I know, it's never used to
mean someone who commits suicide  by any other means.
A term used by the "Emergency Services" since it succinctly describes an
incident, to those who must respond, & lets them know what type of
action they may have to take.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
David Kleinecke
2021-03-07 23:39:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Jerry Friedman
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
A "jumper", in GB, is a sweater;
It's a kind of sweater in the US too,
Post by Stefan Ram
in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
In San Francisco there was always that question when anybody walked out
on the Golden Gate Bridge.

So far as I know nobody has ever jumped off that bridge in Big Sur that
the car advertisements love. And even more attractive way to go or is
wilderness soothing?

Nothing manmade is very high in Humboldt County. Ignore the redwoods.
Chrysi Cat
2021-03-09 06:46:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Jerry Friedman
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
   A "jumper", in GB, is a sweater;
It's a kind of sweater in the US too,
I had NEVER heard of it used for a kind of /sweater/ in the USA until
well after Harry Potter was a thing.

I HAD heard of it as a type of OVERALLS. Specifically, it's the type
with a skirt bottom rather than separate legs, and thus is known as a
"pinafore dress" in the UK. Usually, the ones I remember being for sale
(and VERY occasionally worn by my sister, who was probably more boyish
in her clothes preferences than *I* would have been if I hadn't feared
conversion therapy) were made of corduroy, though denim wasn't unheard of.

I don't know that there's ANY current term for the US version of
"jumper"; the pre-1995 term is unquestionably archaic, not least BECAUSE
a generation of children has seen the word "jumper" in connexion with
sweaters, as Scholastic stopped censoring it out for "sweater" around
the third book.
Post by Ken Blake
in the US, it's someone
   who's trying to commit suicide.
I've never or heard "jumper" used that way.
It began as emergency-services jargon. You can probably blame the
medical and police dramas of the 90s and Twokays (not so much "of the
70s" because censors were mainly trying to HIDE suicide-by-jumping) as
the route by which it then entered the general population--which it
definitely did, because that's the meaning Third Eye Blind was going
with in their hit song "Jumper" and that was released twenty-four years ago.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Joy Beeson
2021-03-08 04:49:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
A "jumper", in GB, is a sweater; in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
In the US, a "jumper" is a sleeveless dress worn over a blouse or an
underdress.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
Lewis
2021-03-08 07:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Jerry Friedman
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
A "jumper", in GB, is a sweater; in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
More often a jumper is a dress, someone who sky dives, or long jumps, or
high jumps, or a block that shorts two pins on a electrical circuit
(used to be very common on computers and hard drives, not so much now),
or a horse/dog/other animal particularly adept at jumping. It is
exceedingly rare, despite what you might see on TV or in movies for
someone to commit suicide by jumping from a
height.
--
Critics look at actresses one of two ways: you're either bankable or
boinkable.
Adam Funk
2021-03-08 09:13:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Jerry Friedman
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
A "jumper", in GB, is a sweater; in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
More often a jumper is a dress, someone who sky dives, or long jumps, or
high jumps, or a block that shorts two pins on a electrical circuit
(used to be very common on computers and hard drives, not so much now),
or a breadboard lead, for example
Post by Lewis
or a horse/dog/other animal particularly adept at jumping. It is
exceedingly rare, despite what you might see on TV or in movies for
someone to commit suicide by jumping from a
height.
--
Cats don't have friends. They have co-conspirators.
http://www.gocomics.com/getfuzzy/2015/05/31
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-08 13:44:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Jerry Friedman
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
A "jumper", in GB, is a sweater; in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
More often a jumper is a dress, someone who sky dives, or long jumps, or
high jumps, or a block that shorts two pins on a electrical circuit
(used to be very common on computers and hard drives, not so much now),
or a horse/dog/other animal particularly adept at jumping. It is
exceedingly rare, despite what you might see on TV or in movies for
someone to commit suicide by jumping from a
height.
Especially since they started putting high fences on the edges
of the pedestrian walkways of bridges.

Also the balconies of Bobst lLibrary at NYU.

hard to find a pre-fence picture ...

https://nyulocal.com/bobst-boy-life-after-the-stacks-4900d117cab1

I couldn't find one showing the Escher-like pattern on the floor of
the atrium, which made it extra-vertiginous from the upper floors.

Pre-Post-Modern Philip Johnson.
Chrysi Cat
2021-03-09 06:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Jerry Friedman
And somewhat euphemistic expressions such as "took his own life."
A "jumper", in GB, is a sweater; in the US, it's someone
who's trying to commit suicide.
More often a jumper is a dress, someone who sky dives, or long jumps, or
high jumps, or a block that shorts two pins on a electrical circuit
(used to be very common on computers and hard drives, not so much now),
or a horse/dog/other animal particularly adept at jumping. It is
exceedingly rare, despite what you might see on TV or in movies for
someone to commit suicide by jumping from a
height.
He says, and then gets the response from the girl who removed her
[US-]second-floor window's screen and started climbing into it on two
occasions when she was pissed [very MUCH the US usage, since we're
talking age 12 or so] with her parents.

I don't know if it would have done anything or NOT; yes, that's only
about 10-12 feet, but that room was over a concrete patio and even if
I'd managed to throw myself past its four-foot width, the rest of the
backyard was a closely-trimmed bluegrass lawn, so I would at the very
least have been BADLY injured if not accomplishing what I was halfway
setting out to (actually, in hindsight, I would likely have been
_particularly_ badly injured since the cavity in my spinal column is
congenitally narrow and this would likely have placed enough pressure on
the spine to start compressing the spinal cord. But I had no way of
knowing that IN 1990). I can't recall if I threatened THAT method only
because I'd heard of it on TV or not.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Tony Cooper
2021-02-26 19:37:41 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:18:23 -0800 (PST), David Kleinecke
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
There is always "killed himself".
I didn't blink when reading it. Either it's common enough not to
cause notice or it conveys the message well enough not to cause
notice.

Ever notice that "committed" seems to appear only when something bad
or illegal follows? He committed suicide, adultery, murder, fraud...

The negative aspect can be offset by being followed by "to", though.
His is committed to solving the crime, feeding the homeless, losing
weight...

Now go ahead...list the exceptions. I know they're out there.
--
Tony Cooper Orlando Florida
Adam Funk
2021-02-27 12:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 26 Feb 2021 11:18:23 -0800 (PST), David Kleinecke
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
There is always "killed himself".
I didn't blink when reading it. Either it's common enough not to
cause notice or it conveys the message well enough not to cause
notice.
Ever notice that "committed" seems to appear only when something bad
or illegal follows? He committed suicide, adultery, murder, fraud...
The negative aspect can be offset by being followed by "to", though.
His is committed to solving the crime, feeding the homeless, losing
weight...
Now go ahead...list the exceptions. I know they're out there.
"He was committed to an institution."
--
"Every national border in Europe," El Eswad added ironically, "marks
the place where two gangs of bandits got too exhausted to kill each
other anymore and signed a treaty. Patriotism is the delusion that one
of these gangs of bandits is better than all the others." --R A Wilson
Bebercito
2021-02-26 19:40:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
He could have committed a failed suicide, and not have died.
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
Jerry Friedman
2021-02-26 19:42:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bebercito
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
He could have committed a failed suicide, and not have died.
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
That's "attempted suicide". "Committed suicide" never means that, much
as "committed murder" never means a failed attempt.
--
Jerry Friedman
Quinn C
2021-02-26 23:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bebercito
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
He could have committed a failed suicide, and not have died.
I've always wondered if those people who consider suicide the gravest
sin would advocate for the death penalty in that case.

Or maybe, to really punish the person, it could be followed by a sudden
pardon.
--
If men got pregnant, you could get an abortion at an ATM.
-- Selina Mayer, VEEP
Paul Wolff
2021-02-27 18:02:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
I've always wondered if those people who consider suicide the gravest
sin would advocate for the death penalty in that case.
ObEnglishUsage: the word 'for' doesn't belong there, though I've noticed
its being used that way these days. To advocate something is to speak in
its favour. In that sense, 'advocate' is a transitive verb. As an
intransitive verb followed by 'for' it means to speak for or on behalf
of [someone].
--
Paul
Peter T. Daniels
2021-02-27 19:00:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Quinn C
I've always wondered if those people who consider suicide the gravest
sin would advocate for the death penalty in that case.
ObEnglishUsage: the word 'for' doesn't belong there, though I've noticed
its being used that way these days. To advocate something is to speak in
its favour. In that sense, 'advocate' is a transitive verb. As an
intransitive verb followed by 'for' it means to speak for or on behalf
of [someone].
That may be a (recent?) Pondian difference. Advocates routinely
advocate for causes. They don't advocate causes, though I think
they may advocate solutions.
Eric Walker
2021-03-06 10:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Quinn C
I've always wondered if those people who consider suicide the gravest
sin would advocate for the death penalty in that case.
ObEnglishUsage: the word 'for' doesn't belong there, though I've noticed
its being used that way these days. To advocate something is to speak in
its favour. In that sense, 'advocate' is a transitive verb. As an
intransitive verb followed by 'for' it means to speak for or on behalf
of [someone].
Bravo. It's time and past time for that ugly neologism to vanish (which
it won't, on the popular principle that the more words, the better).
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Janet
2021-02-27 22:38:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bebercito
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
He could have committed a failed suicide, and not have died.
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
He was using his phone, drove into a tree and killed himself... but
he didn't mean to kill himself, so it wasn't suicide.

Janet
Peter Moylan
2021-02-27 23:18:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Bebercito
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
He could have committed a failed suicide, and not have died.
Post by David Kleinecke
There is always "killed himself".
He was using his phone, drove into a tree and killed himself... but
he didn't mean to kill himself, so it wasn't suicide.
For an example in the other direction, try "suicide by cop".
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
occam
2021-02-26 19:46:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
There is always "killed himself".
...or the lesser known "kicked his own bucket".
Mark Brader
2021-02-26 20:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
I think it means you aren't reading alt.usage.english regularly enough.
--
Mark Brader | "Of course, if you only see one movie this year,
***@vex.net | you're in the wrong newsgroup."
Toronto | --Chris Pierson, rec.arts.movies.past-films
Peter T. Daniels
2021-02-26 21:30:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
There is always "killed himself".
Cf. "died by his own hand."
Janet
2021-02-27 22:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
There is always "killed himself".
I recently saw " he suicided" :-(
Janet.
Nathan Ace
2021-02-27 23:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
There is always "killed himself".
I recently saw " he suicided" :-(
Janet.
'Throwing a seven' and 'buying the farm' have always been ticklish
phrases meaning committing suicide. As a survivor of a few blackly comic
attempts myself I'm stepping in as an authority to say that 'attempting
sucide' and 'committing suicide' are the preferences of the suicide
community - and it _is_ a community - because it credits us with knowing
what we want or wanted (before receiving yet another reminder of our
capacity for failure). Some of the other phrases sound like the
commentary of an AI life form that survives humanity, like you get in
Houellebecq, commenting on the behaviour of humans as if there were just
acts that were observed. I may have bought the wrong kind of rope or not
obtained the optimum prescription or puked but I knew what I was doing,
and should the learning curve be returned to in the post-Covid wasteland
I and my kin among the seven-throwing community and the farm
purchase-inclined - I think I've hyphenated that right? - will stand a
better chance of rubbing our relatives' noses in the facts next time.
Don't 'other' us by using the wrong lingo please, we're already pariahs.
Not that there's any shame in being a pariah, as Marje Simpson once
rightly stated.

Had a lovely hamburger*** today and half a 9 inch pizza so I'm in not
too bad condition, don't you worry about me. And a kebab and a couple of
slices of garlic bread. And a Kit Kat, but that didn't taste of anything
and admittedly did give me a little bit of a wobble of angst.

I should be fine till at least Tuesday anyway.

I'm not really happy with 'suicided' as a verb because it's a double
whammy of corruption of language - I had half a poetry career in late
youth but know that art form has been stolen by 'cool' people now for
Instagram and usherng in presidents with dusty cliches - and a kind of
denial or dissembling, as if the cack-handed but casual word can swat
away the grisly reality of someone swinging from a tree or in my case
balcony. You can't swat the reality of suicide and suicides away - we're
here to stay, up to a point.

I think that's everything.

***with salad
Janet
2021-02-28 08:29:59 UTC
Permalink
In article <s1embh$28vc$***@adenine.netfront.net>, ***@gmx.com
says...
Post by Nathan Ace
Post by Janet
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
There is always "killed himself".
I recently saw " he suicided" :-(
Janet.
'Throwing a seven' and 'buying the farm' have always been ticklish
phrases meaning committing suicide.
Not in my vocabulary. "Bought the farm" just means died (not
suicide".

As a survivor of a few blackly comic
Post by Nathan Ace
attempts myself I'm stepping in as an authority to say that 'attempting
sucide' and 'committing suicide' are the preferences of the suicide
community - and it _is_ a community - because it credits us with knowing
what we want or wanted (before receiving yet another reminder of our
capacity for failure). Some of the other phrases sound like the
commentary of an AI life form that survives humanity, like you get in
Houellebecq, commenting on the behaviour of humans as if there were just
acts that were observed. I may have bought the wrong kind of rope or not
obtained the optimum prescription or puked but I knew what I was doing,
and should the learning curve be returned to in the post-Covid wasteland
I and my kin among the seven-throwing community and the farm
purchase-inclined - I think I've hyphenated that right? - will stand a
better chance of rubbing our relatives' noses in the facts next time.
Don't 'other' us by using the wrong lingo please, we're already pariahs.
Not that there's any shame in being a pariah, as Marje Simpson once
rightly stated.
Had a lovely hamburger*** today and half a 9 inch pizza so I'm in not
too bad condition, don't you worry about me. And a kebab and a couple of
slices of garlic bread. And a Kit Kat, but that didn't taste of anything
and admittedly did give me a little bit of a wobble of angst.
I should be fine till at least Tuesday anyway.
I'm not really happy with 'suicided' as a verb because it's a double
whammy of corruption of language - I had half a poetry career in late
youth but know that art form has been stolen by 'cool' people now for
Instagram and usherng in presidents with dusty cliches - and a kind of
denial or dissembling, as if the cack-handed but casual word can swat
away the grisly reality of someone swinging from a tree or in my case
balcony. You can't swat the reality of suicide and suicides away - we're
here to stay, up to a point.
Where do you stand on "parasuicide" ?

Janet
Mark Brader
2021-02-28 08:45:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nathan Ace
'Throwing a seven' and 'buying the farm' have always been ticklish
phrases meaning committing suicide.
Not in my vocabulary. "Bought the farm" just means died (not suicide".
To me it applies only to the flight crew of an airplane that killed them
in any sort of crash.
--
Mark Brader "A hundred billion is *not* infinite
Toronto and it's getting less infinite all the time!"
***@vex.net -- Isaac Asimov, "The Last Question"
Jerry Friedman
2021-02-28 14:32:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Nathan Ace
'Throwing a seven' and 'buying the farm' have always been ticklish
phrases meaning committing suicide.
Not in my vocabulary. "Bought the farm" just means died (not suicide".
To me it applies only to the flight crew of an airplane that killed them
in any sort of crash.
To me it applies primarily to death in war, secondarily to any death.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
2021-02-28 14:45:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Nathan Ace
'Throwing a seven' and 'buying the farm' have always been ticklish
phrases meaning committing suicide.
Not in my vocabulary. "Bought the farm" just means died (not suicide".
To me it applies only to the flight crew of an airplane that killed them
in any sort of crash.
To me it applies primarily to death in war, secondarily to any death.
Well, maybe only death by violence or accident. Or even something more
restrictive than that, something about risk. A soldier who dies in battle
is the canonical example. A civilian who dies in a bombing raid--maybe
the phrase doesn't apply.
--
Jerry Friedman
Sam Plusnet
2021-02-28 19:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Nathan Ace
'Throwing a seven' and 'buying the farm' have always been ticklish
phrases meaning committing suicide.
Not in my vocabulary. "Bought the farm" just means died (not suicide".
To me it applies only to the flight crew of an airplane that killed them
in any sort of crash.
To me it applies primarily to death in war, secondarily to any death.
I'll go along with Mark on this. It was used by aviators, but it has
since gained a wider currency.
--
Sam Plusnet
Wales, UK
Peter Moylan
2021-03-01 05:08:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
On Sunday, February 28, 2021 at 1:45:52 AM UTC-7, Mark Brader
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Nathan Ace
'Throwing a seven' and 'buying the farm' have always been
ticklish phrases meaning committing suicide.
Not in my vocabulary. "Bought the farm" just means died (not suicide".
To me it applies only to the flight crew of an airplane that
killed them in any sort of crash.
To me it applies primarily to death in war, secondarily to any death.
I'll go along with Mark on this. It was used by aviators, but it has
since gained a wider currency.
Wasn't the aviation saying "bought a plot" rather than "bought the farm"?

Snopes gives a verdict of "uncertain", but there's a hint that it didn't
become a known saying until WWI.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Nathan Ace
2021-02-28 09:38:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Nathan Ace
Post by Janet
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
There is always "killed himself".
I recently saw " he suicided" :-(
Janet.
'Throwing a seven' and 'buying the farm' have always been ticklish
phrases meaning committing suicide.
Not in my vocabulary. "Bought the farm" just means died (not
suicide".
As a survivor of a few blackly comic
Post by Nathan Ace
attempts myself I'm stepping in as an authority to say that 'attempting
sucide' and 'committing suicide' are the preferences of the suicide
community - and it _is_ a community - because it credits us with knowing
what we want or wanted (before receiving yet another reminder of our
capacity for failure). Some of the other phrases sound like the
commentary of an AI life form that survives humanity, like you get in
Houellebecq, commenting on the behaviour of humans as if there were just
acts that were observed. I may have bought the wrong kind of rope or not
obtained the optimum prescription or puked but I knew what I was doing,
and should the learning curve be returned to in the post-Covid wasteland
I and my kin among the seven-throwing community and the farm
purchase-inclined - I think I've hyphenated that right? - will stand a
better chance of rubbing our relatives' noses in the facts next time.
Don't 'other' us by using the wrong lingo please, we're already pariahs.
Not that there's any shame in being a pariah, as Marje Simpson once
rightly stated.
Had a lovely hamburger*** today and half a 9 inch pizza so I'm in not
too bad condition, don't you worry about me. And a kebab and a couple of
slices of garlic bread. And a Kit Kat, but that didn't taste of anything
and admittedly did give me a little bit of a wobble of angst.
I should be fine till at least Tuesday anyway.
I'm not really happy with 'suicided' as a verb because it's a double
whammy of corruption of language - I had half a poetry career in late
youth but know that art form has been stolen by 'cool' people now for
Instagram and usherng in presidents with dusty cliches - and a kind of
denial or dissembling, as if the cack-handed but casual word can swat
away the grisly reality of someone swinging from a tree or in my case
balcony. You can't swat the reality of suicide and suicides away - we're
here to stay, up to a point.
Where do you stand on "parasuicide" ?
Janet
'Parasuicide', that's an outrage of a notion really. I wouldn't even
assume there are instances of it even if it's conceivable that it can
happen, just as I wouldn't be dismissive about a black person talking
about racial profiling. In fact, yes, the notion of parasuicide is an
aspect of systemic failure. If psychiatric staff in the UK are willing
to cover up gang rape of a patient like an ex of mine then the language
of the discipline is at best questionable. I'm sure much of the public
incliding people who've had some kind of education would prefer to have
a good smirk about it and double-down on their belief in parasuicide though.

I'm habitually amenable to gallows humour, and pointedly my bloodline
were worse with that until my mum got diagnosed with inoperable cancer.
After the hanging in particular I was very jokey about it all, but I
live on the third floor and am lucky I'm not paralysed. The tail end of
an overdose's effects meant my body was limp enough that when the noose
snapped as a result of the sleeping pills wrecking my judgement,
vis-a-vis materials, I fell right. If somebody had wanted to suggest
that was just attention-seeking that wouldn't even make sense.

I don't mean to upset anybody by the way, and I know the function of the
group, it's great and has been of great use for many years. But
sometimes, these days especially, having come by some shocking knowledge
in middle age, and knowing how easy a complacent life is preserved for
many if not most, I do have to jump in and say a few non-academic things
even if I'm potentially embarrassing myself.
Peter Moylan
2021-03-01 05:02:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Nathan Ace
Post by Janet
In article
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you think?
There is always "killed himself".
I recently saw " he suicided" :-( Janet.
'Throwing a seven' and 'buying the farm' have always been ticklish
phrases meaning committing suicide.
Not in my vocabulary. "Bought the farm" just means died (not
suicide".
In my experience "bought the farm" refers explicitly to dying in battle
during a war. I've had the impression that it's about a compensation
payment paid to a surviving relative.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Snidely
2021-03-01 10:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Nathan Ace
Post by Janet
In article
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you think?
There is always "killed himself".
I recently saw " he suicided" :-( Janet.
'Throwing a seven' and 'buying the farm' have always been ticklish
phrases meaning committing suicide.
Not in my vocabulary. "Bought the farm" just means died (not
suicide".
In my experience "bought the farm" refers explicitly to dying in battle
during a war. I've had the impression that it's about a compensation
payment paid to a surviving relative.
More about "what I'm going to do when I get out of the army".

In my experience, which was a lot of reading about WWII flyers from the
US, it was most applied to aircrews who had almost reached the pointed
of being rotated back to Stateside, with one or two missions to go.

(Martin Caidan wrote a lot about the bomber crews, and some about the
fighter pilots. He also flew on the ferry flight taking a restored
B-17 to Spain for a movie shoot.)

/dps
--
"First thing in the morning, before I have coffee, I read the obits, If
I'm not in it, I'll have breakfast." -- Carl Reiner, to CBS News in
2015.
Adam Funk
2021-02-28 17:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world
that would have been "committed suicide". What do you
think?
There is always "killed himself".
I recently saw " he suicided" :-(
In French, "Il s'est suicidé" which is doubly reflexive ("se" means
"himself" & "sui" is Latin for "himself").
--
Well, in this world of basic stereotyping, give a guy a big nose and
some weird hair and he is capable of anything. ---Frank Zappa
Eric Walker
2021-03-06 10:25:55 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 27 Feb 2021 22:28:42 +0000, Janet wrote:

[...]
Post by Janet
I recently saw " he suicided" :-(
That seems to be an uncommon but acceptable form, with the advantage of
brevity. So fas as I can find, it is not deemed archaic or obsolete or
anything but ordinary.

Nowadays "committed suicide" is frowned on, as the verb is held by some
to imply a criminal or morally wrong act. One could also say that so-and-
so was a suicide.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Steve Hayes
2021-03-06 12:14:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world that would
have been "committed suicide". What do you think?
There is always "killed himself".
It's better than "suicided", which I believe some people think is an
English word.
--
Steve Hayes http://khanya.wordpress.com
Eric Walker
2021-03-06 12:41:58 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 06 Mar 2021 12:14:06 +0000, Steve Hayes wrote:

[...]
Post by Steve Hayes
It's better than "suicided", which I believe some people think is an
English word.
Some of them even write dictionaries.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Peter Moylan
2021-03-06 23:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Walker
[...]
Post by Steve Hayes
It's better than "suicided", which I believe some people think is
an English word.
Some of them even write dictionaries.
In French the verb is normally reflexive, "se suicider" = to suicide
oneself. In some cases, apparently, it's possible to suicide someone else.

French "se" is the same as Latin "se", so perhaps the verb could also be
suisuicider.

The English word apparently came directly from Latin rather than via French.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW http://www.pmoylan.org
Paul Wolff
2021-03-06 23:27:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Eric Walker
Post by Steve Hayes
It's better than "suicided", which I believe some people think is
an English word.
Some of them even write dictionaries.
In French the verb is normally reflexive, "se suicider" = to suicide
oneself. In some cases, apparently, it's possible to suicide someone else.
French "se" is the same as Latin "se", so perhaps the verb could also be
suisuicider.
The English word apparently came directly from Latin rather than via French.
Sources tell me it was from 'Modern Latin suicidium'.

Sui means 'I have sewn.' But 'As ye sew, so shall ye reap' brings up an
error message.
--
Paul
Chrysi Cat
2021-03-09 07:22:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Eric Walker
Post by Steve Hayes
It's better than "suicided", which I believe some people think is
an English word.
Some of them even write dictionaries.
In French the verb is normally reflexive, "se suicider" = to suicide
oneself. In some cases, apparently, it's possible to suicide someone else.
French "se" is the same as Latin "se", so perhaps the verb could also be
suisuicider.
The English word apparently came directly from Latin rather than via French.
Sources tell me it was from 'Modern Latin suicidium'.
Sui means 'I have sewn.' But 'As ye sew, so shall ye reap' brings up an
error message.
Of course that brings up an error message.

The phrase runs off the _other_ word, the one pronounced like using a
needle and thread, but spelt like a female swine.

And I just checked and they don't have the same root even back to
PIE--the issue is that one of them hit a vowel shift from Old to Middle
English ("sewen" from "siwian") and the other didn't shift nearly as
hard (sowen from sawan) Then somehow the needle one got an ADDITIONAL
vowel shift as someone along the line hadn't been aware that it was
already intended to the the _long_ "e" sound, and we got a homophone
that I find as annoying as all the idiots who think that "a team must be
figuratively "born into" the playoffs, so it's a playoff BIRTH" when
everyone should be able to understand it's a BERTH--a position in the
playoffs.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2021-03-06 13:07:56 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 12:14:06 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world that would
have been "committed suicide". What do you think?
There is always "killed himself".
It's better than "suicided", which I believe some people think is an
English word.
If it is used as an English word it is an English word.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.english.usage)
Quinn C
2021-03-06 23:33:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 6 Mar 2021 12:14:06 -0000 (UTC), Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by David Kleinecke
Encountered a turn of phrase new to me.
John Geddert is said to have "died by suicide". In my world that would
have been "committed suicide". What do you think?
There is always "killed himself".
It's better than "suicided", which I believe some people think is an
English word.
If it is used as an English word it is an English word.
And entirely cromulent.
--
Trans people are scapegoated for the impossibilities of this two-box
system, but the system harms all of us. Most people have felt ashamed
of the ways we don't conform to whatever narrow idea of man or woman
has been prescribed onto our bodies -- H.P.Keenan in Slate
Paul Wolff
2021-03-07 00:11:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 6 Mar 2021, at 18:33:21, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Most people have felt ashamed
of the ways we don't conform to whatever narrow idea of man or woman
has been prescribed onto our bodies -- H.P.Keenan in Slate
No, we haven't. We revel in being ourselves. Don't try to mess us up --
Paul in a.u.e.
--
Paul
Quinn C
2021-03-07 19:15:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
On Sat, 6 Mar 2021, at 18:33:21, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Most people have felt ashamed
of the ways we don't conform to whatever narrow idea of man or woman
has been prescribed onto our bodies -- H.P.Keenan in Slate
No, we haven't. We revel in being ourselves. Don't try to mess us up --
Paul in a.u.e.
Why, I'm quite happy being myself myself, so I don't think this is a
valid counterposition. I just found that it's much easier to say this
since I gave up on the idea that this being myself should be legible as
being a "man" or "woman" at the same time.

If you never ever felt not tall enough to be a "real man" or a "good
man" or an "attractive man", or not muscular enough, or not having
enough fighting spirit, or not enough income, or not enough confidence,
or leadership quality etc. etc., then I'd say you've been doing
unusually well with patriarchal stereotypes.
--
CW: Historical misogyny
Jbzna vf n cnve bs binevrf jvgu n uhzna orvat nggnpurq, jurernf
zna vf n uhzna orvat sheavfurq jvgu n cnve bs grfgrf.
-- Rudolf Virchow
Paul Wolff
2021-03-07 20:16:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Paul Wolff
On Sat, 6 Mar 2021, at 18:33:21, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Most people have felt ashamed
of the ways we don't conform to whatever narrow idea of man or woman
has been prescribed onto our bodies -- H.P.Keenan in Slate
No, we haven't. We revel in being ourselves. Don't try to mess us up --
Paul in a.u.e.
Why, I'm quite happy being myself myself, so I don't think this is a
valid counterposition. I just found that it's much easier to say this
since I gave up on the idea that this being myself should be legible as
being a "man" or "woman" at the same time.
If you never ever felt not tall enough to be a "real man" or a "good
man" or an "attractive man", or not muscular enough, or not having
enough fighting spirit, or not enough income, or not enough confidence,
or leadership quality etc. etc., then I'd say you've been doing
unusually well with patriarchal stereotypes.
I don't want this to be about 'me', but to reply properly there needs to
be some of that. About your sig quotation, I can't believe it's even
half true. "Most people have felt ashamed of the ways we don't conform
to [applied stereotypes]." Evidence for more than half the whole world
population being ashamed? Come off it! What's wrong with them? I've
never felt ashamed in that direction - only of (a few of) my deeds that
fell too short of my standards. Embarrassed maybe, irritated perhaps,
questioning at times too. I'm sure my parents helped by loving me
unconditionally, never asking for more than I was, and showing they were
proud of whatever I achieved. I've always felt lucky - and now that I'm
definitely beyond middle-age, I do sometimes wonder when the luck will
even itself out. Touch wood, not yet.

Thinking on - it's about proportion. I said I was always lucky. Out of
the blue, my cousin said to me only a week or two ago, "I've always felt
lucky." You too? Why? "Because in the Nazi camp, three times we were
saved from being put on the Auschwitz train." That's lucky for you. It
must run in the family. And neither of us is ashamed.

Cheers!
--
Paul
Quinn C
2021-03-08 00:40:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Wolff
"Most people have felt ashamed of the ways we don't conform
to [applied stereotypes]." Evidence for more than half the whole world
population being ashamed?
I don't think it's addressing the whole world. Let's stay within Western
culture, maybe even just the English-speaking world.
Post by Paul Wolff
Come off it! What's wrong with them? I've
never felt ashamed in that direction - only of (a few of) my deeds that
fell too short of my standards. Embarrassed maybe, irritated perhaps,
questioning at times too.
Hm. What do you think you'll find if you look up synonyms for
"embarrassed"?
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Paul Wolff
2021-03-08 10:02:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Paul Wolff
"Most people have felt ashamed of the ways we don't conform
to [applied stereotypes]." Evidence for more than half the whole world
population being ashamed?
I don't think it's addressing the whole world. Let's stay within Western
culture, maybe even just the English-speaking world.
Post by Paul Wolff
Come off it! What's wrong with them? I've
never felt ashamed in that direction - only of (a few of) my deeds that
fell too short of my standards. Embarrassed maybe, irritated perhaps,
questioning at times too.
Hm. What do you think you'll find if you look up synonyms for
"embarrassed"?
Tempting though it is to start thinking up synonyms, can I afford the
time? "Short of the necessary money when called upon to make a payment"
is one of them. There are other variations on the theme of being caught
out in socially sub-standard behaviour, from minor to major degrees.
--
Paul
Janet
2021-03-08 14:05:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
"Most people have felt]." ashamed of the ways we don't conform
to [applied stereotypesEvidence for more than half the whole world
population being ashamed?
I don't think it's addressing the whole world. Let's stay within Western
culture, maybe even just the English-speaking world.
I still don't agree ""Most people in the English speaking world
/Western culture have felt ashamed of the ways we don't conform to
[applied stereotypes".



Janet.
Snidely
2021-03-08 20:18:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Quinn C
"Most people have felt]." ashamed of the ways we don't conform
to [applied stereotypesEvidence for more than half the whole world
population being ashamed?
I don't think it's addressing the whole world. Let's stay within Western
culture, maybe even just the English-speaking world.
I still don't agree ""Most people in the English speaking world
/Western culture have felt ashamed of the ways we don't conform to
[applied stereotypes".
It also shows up as "compensation", a behavior designed to draw
attention away from what the behaver feels is an inadequacy.
Braggadocios is one such compensation; buying a show-off car is
another. I suppose even padded bras could come under that label, just
to suggest it isn't limited to a single gender.

/dps
--
Maybe C282Y is simply one of the hangers-on, a groupie following a
future guitar god of the human genome: an allele with undiscovered
virtuosity, currently soloing in obscurity in Mom's garage.
Bradley Wertheim, theAtlantic.com, Jan 10 2013
Quinn C
2021-03-09 00:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Quinn C
"Most people have felt]." ashamed of the ways we don't conform
to [applied stereotypesEvidence for more than half the whole world
population being ashamed?
I don't think it's addressing the whole world. Let's stay within Western
culture, maybe even just the English-speaking world.
I still don't agree ""Most people in the English speaking world
/Western culture have felt ashamed of the ways we don't conform to
[applied stereotypes".
When it comes to women, the possibilities are endless. A woman can be
embarrassed about not doing her job well, but also about being too good
at her job, if it's not a classic "woman's job". For wearing no make-up,
or for wearing too much of it.

How many women have felt, have been made to feel at times they're not
pretty enough, not nice enough or too fat to be a real/good/attractive
woman? Or that they're not a good enough wife or mother, if they're
working? Have been slut-shamed or virgin-shamed?

Far more than half, I'd guess. And that will tip the scale even if maybe
not quite half of all men have had such feelings.

You may still come to a different conclusion, but before you decide,
don't think of yourself and other people at age 50+ only. At that age, a
lot of people have developed the confidence to reject such stereotypes.
The time when these feelings are typically most intense is from puberty
until 30 or so, the time when you find out what you want to do with your
life and how you fit into society, when you look for a job and for a
partner for the first time, or first few times.

Of course I'm all for rejecting the stereotypes, but by far the easiest
solution for that would be not to have gendered expectations in the
first place, and let everyone be what fits their character or ambitions.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Janet
2021-03-09 13:41:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Janet
Post by Quinn C
"Most people have felt]." ashamed of the ways we don't conform
to [applied stereotypesEvidence for more than half the whole world
population being ashamed?
I don't think it's addressing the whole world. Let's stay within Western
culture, maybe even just the English-speaking world.
I still don't agree ""Most people in the English speaking world
/Western culture have felt ashamed of the ways we don't conform to
[applied stereotypes".
When it comes to women, the possibilities are endless. A woman can be
embarrassed about not doing her job well, but also about being too good
at her job, if it's not a classic "woman's job". For wearing no make-up,
or for wearing too much of it.
How many women have felt, have been made to feel at times they're not
pretty enough, not nice enough or too fat to be a real/good/attractive
woman? Or that they're not a good enough wife or mother, if they're
working? Have been slut-shamed or virgin-shamed?
Far more than half, I'd guess. And that will tip the scale even if maybe
not quite half of all men have had such feelings.
You may still come to a different conclusion, but before you decide,
don't think of yourself and other people at age 50+ only. At that age, a
lot of people have developed the confidence to reject such stereotypes.
The time when these feelings are typically most intense is from puberty
until 30 or so, the time when you find out what you want to do with your
life and how you fit into society, when you look for a job and for a
partner for the first time, or first few times.
Of course I'm all for rejecting the stereotypes, but by far the easiest
solution for that would be not to have gendered expectations in the
first place, and let everyone be what fits their character or ambitions.
Thanks for mansplaining gender stereotypes.

Janet
Quinn C
2021-03-09 14:53:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janet
Thanks for mansplaining gender stereotypes.
Thanks for reminding me why I usually ignore your posts.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
CDB
2021-03-09 15:59:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Janet
Thanks for mansplaining gender stereotypes.
Thanks for reminding me why I usually ignore your posts.
Oh, c'mon. That was pretty funny.
Peter T. Daniels
2021-03-09 17:47:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by Janet
Thanks for mansplaining gender stereotypes.
Thanks for reminding me why I usually ignore your posts.
Oh, c'mon. That was pretty funny.
"How many lesbians does it take to change a lightbulb?"
"That's not funny."
(mid 1970s)
Quinn C
2021-03-09 18:39:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by Janet
Thanks for mansplaining gender stereotypes.
Thanks for reminding me why I usually ignore your posts.
Oh, c'mon. That was pretty funny.
Not at all. Janet has made it a point before that she doesn't accept my
gender identity.

If I can detect any humor in the situation, then at best in the fact
that it comes from a person who is clearly so much more of a man than
me.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
CDB
2021-03-10 13:50:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by Janet
Thanks for mansplaining gender stereotypes.
Thanks for reminding me why I usually ignore your posts.
Oh, c'mon. That was pretty funny.
Not at all. Janet has made it a point before that she doesn't accept
my gender identity.
I don't know about that. I don't know why you would care.
Post by Quinn C
If I can detect any humor in the situation, then at best in the fact
that it comes from a person who is clearly so much more of a man
than me.
Ouch?

The humour for me was in the reminder that you were raised when young to
be a "man", and seem not to have lost all the habits you acquired then.

"Mansplaining" is an invention of second-wave (I think) feminists, who
complained unfairly that men were doing what women had been giving
admiring encouragement to for ages.
Quinn C
2021-03-10 14:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by Janet
Thanks for mansplaining gender stereotypes.
Thanks for reminding me why I usually ignore your posts.
Oh, c'mon. That was pretty funny.
Not at all. Janet has made it a point before that she doesn't accept
my gender identity.
I don't know about that. I don't know why you would care.
Then you don't understand the concept of gender identity, nay, of
identity, period.
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
CDB
2021-03-10 15:47:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by Janet
Thanks for mansplaining gender stereotypes.
Thanks for reminding me why I usually ignore your posts.
Oh, c'mon. That was pretty funny.
Not at all. Janet has made it a point before that she doesn't
accept my gender identity.
I don't know about that. I don't know why you would care.
Then you don't understand the concept of gender identity, nay, of
identity, period.
It would be fair to say that I don't understand your conception of it.
Why this urge to control what other people think?

I see my identity as something that I'm sure of, at least to the point
that I don't need anyone else's acknowledgement of it. That doesn't
mean at all that I conform to all the male stereotypes, only that I
think that there is social value in maleness and that my life is my
business. I don't invite comment on it, and I certainly don't require
the right kind of comment from anyone else.
Quinn C
2021-03-10 18:32:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by Janet
Thanks for mansplaining gender stereotypes.
Thanks for reminding me why I usually ignore your posts.
Oh, c'mon. That was pretty funny.
Not at all. Janet has made it a point before that she doesn't
accept my gender identity.
I don't know about that. I don't know why you would care.
Then you don't understand the concept of gender identity, nay, of
identity, period.
It would be fair to say that I don't understand your conception of it.
Why this urge to control what other people think?
I see my identity as something that I'm sure of, at least to the point
that I don't need anyone else's acknowledgement of it. That doesn't
mean at all that I conform to all the male stereotypes, only that I
think that there is social value in maleness and that my life is my
business. I don't invite comment on it, and I certainly don't require
the right kind of comment from anyone else.
First of all, this is naive - most identities are social, and require
reinforcement from the people around you, even if it's often not in
words, but just by making you welcome or involving you. If people don't
let you participate in the club any more, if colleagues don't give you
information you need for your work, if your partner doesn't want to have
sex with you, they are challenging your identity, if not as obviously as
when your child shouts: "you are not my father!"

I don't "require" reinforcement. If you never say anything about my
gender at all, I'll be fine (although languages have a habit of tricking
you into commenting on people's gender.)

But I don't appreciate being let know I'm a fraud. This isn't limited to
gender - I also found it offensive when PTD had trouble believing that
I'm a linguist.

This may be hard to imagine when it comes to gender identity, because
outside of a few subcultures, cis people's gender identity is rarely
challenged. So I'll give you a different example. If you were raised
Anglican, but are now an atheist, and have said so in one of the
recurring discussion on the God question here, I don't think you'd find
it particularly funny to be told, repeatedly, that "of course you as an
Anglican would say that."

This group, and the people I read, are company I choose, but there are
several people in the group who I choose not to engage with, or only
exceptionally so. Sometimes temporarily, sometimes long-term - among
regulars, Rey must have been the record holder so far for inhabiting my
killfile without any temptation to interrupt that for over 10 years.
Long before my gender was an interesting subject.
--
Quinn C
My pronouns are they/them
(or other gender-neutral ones)
Paul Wolff
2021-03-10 21:01:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by Janet
Thanks for mansplaining gender stereotypes.
Thanks for reminding me why I usually ignore your posts.
Oh, c'mon. That was pretty funny.
It was witty, and there was some truth in the jest.
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
Post by Quinn C
Not at all. Janet has made it a point before that she doesn't
accept my gender identity.
I don't know about that. I don't know why you would care.
Then you don't understand the concept of gender identity, nay, of
identity, period.
There is a modern application of the word 'identity' to mean something
quite other than its traditional meaning, which is something unchanging
- as applied to persons, the essence of what is them and keeps them the
same person from cradle to grave, no matter how they develop and change
in other respects. It's the reason (perhaps not a good reason) why a
felon can't escape his criminal record of forty years ago.

I know we use 'identity' as a synonym for 'name', as in 'ID' or
'identity document', though in Anglo-Saxonia we can change our names
without changing our identities. But a person's identity attaches to the
continuum of their existence, and in this sense has nothing to do with
their moods or feelings.

'Gender identity' doesn't fit this understanding. It's fluid, whereas
real identity cannot possibly be fluid.
Post by Quinn C
Post by CDB
It would be fair to say that I don't understand your conception of it.
Why this urge to control what other people think?
I see my identity as something that I'm sure of, at least to the point
that I don't need anyone else's acknowledgement of it. That doesn't
mean at all that I conform to all the male stereotypes, only that I
think that there is social value in maleness and that my life is my
business. I don't invite comment on it, and I certainly don't require
the right kind of comment from anyone else.
This squares with my remarks above, and my own sense of identity: I am
me, I don't share that me with anybody else, and that's it. I don't need
approval.
Post by Quinn C
First of all, this is naive - most identities are social, and require
reinforcement from the people around you, even if it's often not in
words, but just by making you welcome or involving you.
This is the new identity. It's how other people perceive you. It looks
like a 'take me as I present, not as I am' identity.

Reading on, it struck me that this is all quite Shakespearean. All the
world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players. Today I am
Hamlet: next week, Lady Macbeth. If my colleagues don't accept me as
Lady Macbeth, they are challenging my stage identity. Exactly so. But
the real me remains unchallenged.
Post by Quinn C
If people don't
let you participate in the club any more, if colleagues don't give you
information you need for your work, if your partner doesn't want to have
sex with you, they are challenging your identity, if not as obviously as
when your child shouts: "you are not my father!"
I don't "require" reinforcement. If you never say anything about my
gender at all, I'll be fine (although languages have a habit of tricking
you into commenting on people's gender.)
But I don't appreciate being let know I'm a fraud. This isn't limited to
gender - I also found it offensive when PTD had trouble believing that
I'm a linguist.
This may be hard to imagine when it comes to gender identity, because
outside of a few subcultures, cis people's gender identity is rarely
challenged.
Perhaps people try to be polite. Can you understand why I prefer sex to
gender as a mark of identity? Sex is objective, can't be swapped out and
replaced at will, or by any outside agency: gender is fluid and we are
told it is what its owner says it is - Hamlet, or Lady Macbeth - and
you're in no position to deny it. It's hard to equate that to true
identity in the sense that I, deep down, acknowledge as identity.
Post by Quinn C
So I'll give you a different example. If you were raised
Anglican, but are now an atheist, and have said so in one of the
recurring discussion on the God question here, I don't think you'd find
it particularly funny to be told, repeatedly, that "of course you as an
Anglican would say that."
That would not impinge on your true identity, though.
Post by Quinn C
This group, and the people I read, are company I choose, but there are
several people in the group who I choose not to engage with, or only
exceptionally so. Sometimes temporarily, sometimes long-term - among
regulars, Rey must have been the record holder so far for inhabiting my
killfile without any temptation to interrupt that for over 10 years.
Long before my gender was an interesting subject.
Well, I concede it has raised some interesting questions. But I can't
help thinking of /that/ sort of identity as a role, no matter how
honestly and sincerely played. See, I don't challenge sincerity. But I
do challenge Hamlet's claim to a true Danish princedom.
--
Paul
Lewis
2021-03-10 16:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
"Mansplaining" is an invention
Observation.
Post by CDB
of second-wave (I think) feminists, who complained unfairly that men
were doing what women had been giving admiring encouragement to for
ages.
You are delusional. No one, regardless of sex, appreciates having things
they already know explained to them.
--
I have a cunning plan.
Quinn C
2021-03-10 18:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by CDB
"Mansplaining" is an invention
Observation.
Post by CDB
of second-wave (I think) feminists, who complained unfairly that men
were doing what women had been giving admiring encouragement to for
ages.
You are delusional. No one, regardless of sex, appreciates having things
they already know explained to them.
In a society where men hold most of the access to power, it can be
strategic for women to stroke men's fragile egos.
--
For spirits when they please
Can either sex assume, or both; so soft
And uncompounded is their essence pure,
-- Milton, Paradise Lost
Ken Blake
2021-03-10 20:33:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by CDB
"Mansplaining" is an invention
Observation.
Post by CDB
of second-wave (I think) feminists, who complained unfairly that men
were doing what women had been giving admiring encouragement to for
ages.
You are delusional. No one, regardless of sex, appreciates having things
they already know explained to them.
So why are you telling us that no one, regardless of sex, appreciates
having things they already know explained to them?
--
Ken
Lewis
2021-03-10 20:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Lewis
Post by CDB
"Mansplaining" is an invention
Observation.
Post by CDB
of second-wave (I think) feminists, who complained unfairly that men
were doing what women had been giving admiring encouragement to for
ages.
You are delusional. No one, regardless of sex, appreciates having things
they already know explained to them.
So why are you telling us that no one, regardless of sex, appreciates
having things they already know explained to them?
Did you read what I replied to?

Perhaps read it again.
--
Latet anguis in herba.
Cheryl
2021-03-09 15:32:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Janet
Post by Quinn C
"Most people have felt]." ashamed of the ways we don't conform
to [applied stereotypesEvidence for more than half the whole world
population being ashamed?
I don't think it's addressing the whole world. Let's stay within Western
culture, maybe even just the English-speaking world.
I still don't agree ""Most people in the English speaking world
/Western culture have felt ashamed of the ways we don't conform to
[applied stereotypes".
When it comes to women, the possibilities are endless. A woman can be
embarrassed about not doing her job well, but also about being too good
at her job, if it's not a classic "woman's job". For wearing no make-up,
or for wearing too much of it.
How many women have felt, have been made to feel at times they're not
pretty enough, not nice enough or too fat to be a real/good/attractive
woman? Or that they're not a good enough wife or mother, if they're
working? Have been slut-shamed or virgin-shamed?
Far more than half, I'd guess. And that will tip the scale even if maybe
not quite half of all men have had such feelings.
You may still come to a different conclusion, but before you decide,
don't think of yourself and other people at age 50+ only. At that age, a
lot of people have developed the confidence to reject such stereotypes.
The time when these feelings are typically most intense is from puberty
until 30 or so, the time when you find out what you want to do with your
life and how you fit into society, when you look for a job and for a
partner for the first time, or first few times.
Of course I'm all for rejecting the stereotypes, but by far the easiest
solution for that would be not to have gendered expectations in the
first place, and let everyone be what fits their character or ambitions.
It certainly hasn't been my experience that I, or most or even many of
my female friends have felt ashamed that I, or they, don't conform to
stereoptypes. Sure, when I was younger, making the transition through
puberty from girl to woman, I noticed that certain clothing and personal
care choices (like makeup and hairstyles) were more typical of women
than girls, and I suppose of women than men, although that wasn't a
dichotomy that interested me much if at all. I can't say the existence
of stereotypes affected me much (except that I went through a very
short-lived phase of having a strong desire for frilly bras and high
heeled shoes, neither of which I adopted as a regular fashion choice),
and I doubt I gave them a moment's thought after my late teens. Of
course, I read a lot about stereotypes and women - I read a lot of
feminist writing back then - but it was just another thing in books that
didn't resonate much with my own experiences. I wouldn't say myself that
there's any reason at all not to have gendered expectations. They gave
me ideas on what to try out and play with as I was growing up, and also
form the basis of communication-by-fashion/behaviour for everyone,
regardless of whether they're following, playing with, or rejecting the
stereotypes.
--
Cheryl
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