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rather
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navi
2024-11-28 08:34:21 UTC
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Are these sentences correct:

1) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
2) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school than study
medicine.

3) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school.
4) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school than
study medicine.

--
Gratefully,
Navi

Lost in the Twilight Zone of the English language
Obsessed with ambiguity
Interested in strange structures
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-28 09:38:32 UTC
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Post by navi
1) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
2) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school than study
medicine.
3) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school.
4) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school than
study medicine.
All incorrect. You can't use "he'd rather" for something in the past.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
jerryfriedman
2024-11-28 15:41:39 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
1) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
2) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school than study
medicine.
3) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school.
4) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school than
study medicine.
All incorrect.
I agree.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You can't use "he'd rather" for something in the past.
I might say the preferring can't be in the past. You
can say "He'd rather his daughter had gone to law
school."

"He'd better" has the same problem.

--
Jerry Friedman

--
Peter Moylan
2024-11-28 22:37:12 UTC
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Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
1) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school. 2)
Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school than
study medicine.
3) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law
school. 4) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to
law school than study medicine.
All incorrect.
I agree.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You can't use "he'd rather" for something in the past.
I might say the preferring can't be in the past. You can say "He'd
rather his daughter had gone to law school."
I'm not sure whether navi knows this, but "he'd rather" is an
abbreviation of "he would rather".
Post by jerryfriedman
"He'd better" has the same problem.
Although this does indeed have the same problem, it's grammatically
different. It's an abbreviation of the subjunctive "he had better".
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
LionelEdwards
2024-12-02 10:17:31 UTC
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Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
1) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
2) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school than study
medicine.
3) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school.
4) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school than
study medicine.
All incorrect.
I agree.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You can't use "he'd rather" for something in the past.
I might say the preferring can't be in the past. You
can say "He'd rather his daughter had gone to law
school."
You have assumed 'going to law school' happened in the
past? That isn't specified in the original. Suppose she
starts school next year?

Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
This year, he'd rather she study medicine.
LionelEdwards
2024-12-03 15:13:05 UTC
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Post by LionelEdwards
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
1) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
2) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school than study
medicine.
3) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school.
4) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school than
study medicine.
All incorrect.
I agree.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You can't use "he'd rather" for something in the past.
I might say the preferring can't be in the past. You
can say "He'd rather his daughter had gone to law
school."
You have assumed 'going to law school' happened in the
past? That isn't specified in the original. Suppose she
starts school next year?
Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
This year, he'd rather she study medicine.
navi contributes to the confusion by never providing
context. In the absence of anything better to go on:

Say a father has twin ten year olds, a boy and a girl.

All of navi's sentences are then correct and your "He'd
rather his daughter had gone to law school" is wrong.

You get the opposite situation with the the boy?

"Last year, he'd rather that his son joined the army".
"Last year, he'd rather that his son went into the army".

LionelEdwards
2024-11-28 13:44:49 UTC
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Post by navi
1) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
2) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school than study
medicine.
3) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school.
4) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school than
study medicine.
They are fine and I'm not sure what Athel is angling for:

1) Last year, he'd have rather that his daughter go to law school.

Perhaps. But then you invite in the word "rathered": "He would have
rathered her go hang out at parties".
Paul Carmichael
2024-11-28 16:07:42 UTC
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Post by LionelEdwards
1) Last year, he'd have rather that his daughter go to law school.
Maybe, but in the past, go would be went, of course. Some might call it a
subjunctive.

Actually, I might remove the "that".

"Would have preferred". I'm not entirely sure about the verb "would
rather" used like that, indirectly.

I would rather be me than a goat.

I would prefer that my daughter be herself than a goat.

JMPO.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es
LionelEdwards
2024-11-28 19:15:46 UTC
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Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by LionelEdwards
1) Last year, he'd have rather that his daughter go to law school.
Maybe, but in the past, go would be went, of course.
People in the past weren't allowed to think what might happen
in the future?
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-28 20:24:19 UTC
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Post by LionelEdwards
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by LionelEdwards
1) Last year, he'd have rather that his daughter go to law school.
Maybe, but in the past, go would be went, of course.
People in the past weren't allowed to think what might happen
in the future?
Sure, but their thoughts must be grammatically correct:

Last year, he'd rather have had that his daughter went to law school.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Peter Moylan
2024-11-28 22:41:14 UTC
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Post by navi
1) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
2) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school than study
medicine.
3) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school.
4) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school than
study medicine.
I suspect you are the only person here who would say they are fine.

Lionel, I keep seeing examples that show that your version of English is
very different from mine. What is your native language?
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
LionelEdwards
2024-11-28 23:30:03 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by navi
1) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
2) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school than study
medicine.
3) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school.
4) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school than
study medicine.
I suspect you are the only person here who would say they are fine.
Lionel, I keep seeing examples that show that your version of English is
very different from mine. What is your native language?
NE Surrey SE London. Also a year in the Deep South of the
USA where this was our greeting. "Pitching woo"?


navi
2024-11-29 00:03:29 UTC
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Thank you all very much,

There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was. I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.

I had to look up 'pitch woo'. But why is 'pitching woo' a greeting?

Respectfully,
Navi
Tony Cooper
2024-11-29 03:50:35 UTC
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Post by navi
Thank you all very much,
There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was. I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.
I had to look up 'pitch woo'. But why is 'pitching woo' a greeting?
Understanding the poster now listing himself as "LionelEdwards" is not
something you should consider to be obtainable.

He went to college - briefly - in Georgia near the Tennessee state
line - and that can be described as being in the "Deep South".

However, the YouTube link was to a song about someone from Oklahoma,
which is not in the South.

"Pitching woo" is an activity that might have been done in Oklahoma,
but in the South they would have called it "courting" when the terms
were in active vocabulary.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-29 06:53:31 UTC
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Post by navi
Thank you all very much,
There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was.
Spains Harden. Now he calls himself LionelEdwards.
Post by navi
I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.
I had to look up 'pitch woo'. But why is 'pitching woo' a greeting?
Respectfully,
Navi
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Janet
2024-11-29 13:34:26 UTC
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In article <viboda$vq9f$***@dont-email.me>, ***@yahoo.com
says...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
Thank you all very much,
There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was.
Spains Harden. Now he calls himself LionelEdwards.
Post by navi
I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.
When he was "Toughguy" iirc he claimed to be a hardman
from Scotland.

Janet.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-29 13:49:21 UTC
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Post by Janet
says...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
Thank you all very much,
There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was.
Spains Harden. Now he calls himself LionelEdwards.
Post by navi
I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.
When he was "Toughguy" iirc he claimed to be a hardman
from Scotland.
I thought he once claimed to be a yobbo from the East End of London.
That was when we deduced that the H in Harrison must be silent.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
musika
2024-11-29 13:54:37 UTC
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Post by Janet
says...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
Thank you all very much,
There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was.
Spains Harden. Now he calls himself LionelEdwards.
Post by navi
I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.
When he was "Toughguy" iirc he claimed to be a hardman
from Scotland.
Harry Hill was never Toughguy.
--
Ray
UK
Janet
2024-11-29 17:20:53 UTC
Reply
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Post by musika
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
Thank you all very much,
There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was.
Spains Harden. Now he calls himself LionelEdwards.
Post by navi
I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.
When he was "Toughguy" iirc he claimed to be a hardman
from Scotland.
Harry Hill was never Toughguy.
Weren't they somebody Sword, in between?

Janet.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-29 17:24:00 UTC
Reply
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Post by Janet
Post by musika
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
Thank you all very much,
There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was.
Spains Harden. Now he calls himself LionelEdwards.
Post by navi
I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.
When he was "Toughguy" iirc he claimed to be a hardman
from Scotland.
Harry Hill was never Toughguy.
Weren't they somebody Sword, in between?
Something Wilkinson Sword, I think, but that was Toughguy, not 'Arrison.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
musika
2024-11-29 17:47:22 UTC
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Post by Janet
Post by musika
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
Thank you all very much,
There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was.
Spains Harden. Now he calls himself LionelEdwards.
Post by navi
I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.
When he was "Toughguy" iirc he claimed to be a hardman
from Scotland.
Harry Hill was never Toughguy.
Weren't they somebody Sword, in between?
Tough guy - James Wilkinson Sword - Captain Kinsey, I believe.
Harrison Hill - Spains Harden - Lionel Edwards and maybe someone else
between the last two.
--
Ray
UK
jerryfriedman
2024-11-29 18:08:46 UTC
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Post by musika
Post by Janet
Post by musika
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
Thank you all very much,
There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was.
Spains Harden. Now he calls himself LionelEdwards.
Post by navi
I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.
When he was "Toughguy" iirc he claimed to be a hardman
from Scotland.
Harry Hill was never Toughguy.
Weren't they somebody Sword, in between?
Tough guy - James Wilkinson Sword - Captain Kinsey, I believe.
Commander Kinsey. He started as P. Hucker, and I think
there were other names in there. His lead trollee or
sock puppet Peeler would know.
Post by musika
Harrison Hill - Spains Harden - Lionel Edwards and maybe someone else
between the last two.
If so, I missed it.

--
Jerry Friedman

--
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-29 18:17:44 UTC
Reply
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Post by jerryfriedman
Post by musika
Post by Janet
Post by musika
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
Thank you all very much,
There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was.
Spains Harden. Now he calls himself LionelEdwards.
Post by navi
I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.
When he was "Toughguy" iirc he claimed to be a hardman
from Scotland.
Harry Hill was never Toughguy.
Weren't they somebody Sword, in between?
Tough guy - James Wilkinson Sword - Captain Kinsey, I believe.
Commander Kinsey. He started as P. Hucker, and I think
there were other names in there. His lead trollee or
sock puppet Peeler would know.
This last was a troll's troll. He was the first to be given a coveted
place in my killfile after I cleared it out.
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by musika
Harrison Hill - Spains Harden - Lionel Edwards and maybe someone else
between the last two.
If so, I missed it.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
musika
2024-11-29 19:42:13 UTC
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Post by musika
Post by musika
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
Thank you all very much,
There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was.
Spains Harden. Now he calls himself LionelEdwards.
Post by navi
   I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.
   When he was "Toughguy" iirc he claimed to be a hardman
from Scotland.
Harry Hill was never Toughguy.
   Weren't they somebody Sword, in between?
Tough guy - James Wilkinson Sword - Captain Kinsey, I believe.
Commander Kinsey.  He started as P. Hucker, and I think
there were other names in there.
I knew Captain was wrong when I wrote it but couldn't recall "Commander".
I don't remember a Peter Hucker post but I do remember CDB mentioning
him as a forerunner of TG.
His lead trollee or
sock puppet Peeler would know.
Post by musika
Harrison Hill - Spains Harden - Lionel Edwards and maybe someone else
between the last two.
If so, I missed it.
--
Jerry Friedman
--
--
Ray
UK
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-30 09:06:52 UTC
Reply
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Post by musika
Post by musika
Post by musika
Post by Janet
says...
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by navi
Thank you all very much,
There was a member here by the name of Harrison Hill whose responses
sometimes differed sharply from those of the others. He later changed
his name, but I don't remember what his second name was.
Spains Harden. Now he calls himself LionelEdwards.
Post by navi
   I don't think
he is around anymore. Does anyone remember where he was from? I think he
was from London.
   When he was "Toughguy" iirc he claimed to be a hardman
from Scotland.
Harry Hill was never Toughguy.
   Weren't they somebody Sword, in between?
Tough guy - James Wilkinson Sword - Captain Kinsey, I believe.
Commander Kinsey.  He started as P. Hucker, and I think
there were other names in there.
I knew Captain was wrong when I wrote it but couldn't recall "Commander".
I don't remember a Peter Hucker post but I do remember CDB
What became of him? I can guess, I suppose. He was the only person I
had ever come across who had lived in Haiti.
Post by musika
mentioning him as a forerunner of TG.
His lead trollee or
sock puppet Peeler would know.
Post by musika
Harrison Hill - Spains Harden - Lionel Edwards and maybe someone else
between the last two.
If so, I missed it.
--
Jerry Friedman
--
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-29 06:51:07 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by navi
1) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
2) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school than study
medicine.
3) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school.
4) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school than
study medicine.
I suspect you are the only person here who would say they are fine.
Lionel, I keep seeing examples that show that your version of English is
very different from mine. What is your native language?
If you remember that "Lionel" is just the current incarnation of
'Arrison you'll realize that his notion of excellent English is
different from anyone else's.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Hibou
2024-11-29 08:12:10 UTC
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Post by navi
1) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
2) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school than study
medicine.
3) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school.
4) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school than
study medicine.
If "he'd" is short for "he would", then I'm with the others in thinking
them incorrect. But if it's short for "he had", then there are examples
in old literature:

"Though very well pleased with the bird he had taken, yet he had rather
it had been one of the eagles which kept his young antelopes in
jeopardy..." - Dorrington, 'The English Hermit, Etc.', 1815.

"... That he had rather things should continue in the State they were
in, than that he should be the Cause of new Disorders..." - Ellies du
Pin, 'Histoire de l'Église...', 1710.

"Being told by Symmachus, that he would teach him the art of memory; he
gravely answered, he had rather learn the art of forgetfulness..." -
Evans, 'The Friends' Library...', 1837.

'He had rather' is a valid but old-fashioned turn of phrase. If it is
what is meant in your sentences, then I think it has to be spelled out
in full.
Hibou
2024-11-29 09:19:42 UTC
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Post by Hibou
Post by navi
1) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school.
2) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter go to law school than study
medicine.
3) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school.
4) Last year, he'd rather that his daughter should go to law school than
study medicine.
If "he'd" is short for "he would", then I'm with the others in thinking
them incorrect. But if it's short for "he had", then there are examples
"Though very well pleased with the bird he had taken, yet he had rather
it had been one of the eagles which kept his young antelopes in
jeopardy..." - Dorrington, 'The English Hermit, Etc.', 1815.
"... That he had rather things should continue in the State they were
in, than that he should be the Cause of new Disorders..." - Ellies du
Pin, 'Histoire de l'Église...', 1710.
"Being told by Symmachus, that he would teach him the art of memory; he
gravely answered, he had rather learn the art of forgetfulness..." -
Evans, 'The Friends' Library...', 1837.
'He had rather' is a valid but old-fashioned turn of phrase. If it is
what is meant in your sentences, then I think it has to be spelled out
in full.
Even then I find it doesn't sound natural.

Last year, he'd have preferred his daughter to go to law school
rather than study medicine.

But now that she's treating his gammy leg, he's changed his mind.
navi
2024-11-29 11:25:27 UTC
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Thank you all very much,

Very interesting. I thought 'I'd rather' was basically the same as 'I
would rather', and 'I'd better' was 'I had better'.

Hibou, your posts were extremely useful.

A special thanks to Tony and an even more special one to Athel, who
spelled everything out.

Respectfully,
Navi
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