biro

[Mark Barratt]

When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

Comments?

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

Biro was common British usage in the 1950s
and was the brand name of (one of) the first
ballpoint pens then marketed in Britain. It cost about
a pound, then the price of 100 cigarettes.
The name was never adopted in the USA.

[Beware using "anymore" for any more.]

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

Biro was common British usage in the 1950s
and was the brand name of (one of) the first
ballpoint pens then marketed in Britain. It cost about
a pound, then the price of 100 cigarettes.
The name was never adopted in the USA.
[Beware using "anymore" for any more.]

Huh? Good advice in general, I suppose:

*Is there anymore cake?
*I haven't got anymore money.

are both wrong, but my usage above ("I rarely hear this anymore")
is unremarkable, in my experience. Of course, "any more" would
also be acceptable here.

Checking a couple of online dictionaries, I notice that the
Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary at
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org>
says "US for 'any more'" but I think that's no longer true, if it
ever was. The Longman Active Study Dictionary, which I have here,
gives "any more" and "anymore" as equivalent in this sense, with
no usage note.

[Richard Chambers]

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

Biro was common British usage in the 1950s
and was the brand name of (one of) the first
ballpoint pens then marketed in Britain. It cost about
a pound, then the price of 100 cigarettes.
The name was never adopted in the USA.
[Beware using "anymore" for any more.]

*Is there anymore cake?
*I haven't got anymore money.
are both wrong, but my usage above ("I rarely hear this anymore")
is unremarkable, in my experience. Of course, "any more" would
also be acceptable here.
Checking a couple of online dictionaries, I notice that the
Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary at
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org>
says "US for 'any more'" but I think that's no longer true, if it
ever was. The Longman Active Study Dictionary, which I have here,
gives "any more" and "anymore" as equivalent in this sense, with
no usage note.

Anyhow, I just wouldn't do it anymore if I were you.

Richard Chambers Leeds UK.

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Richard Chambers

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was
usually referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian
inventor, László Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if
ever, hear this usage anymore.

Biro was common British usage in the 1950s
and was the brand name of (one of) the first
ballpoint pens then marketed in Britain. It cost about
a pound, then the price of 100 cigarettes.
The name was never adopted in the USA.
[Beware using "anymore" for any more.]

*Is there anymore cake?
*I haven't got anymore money.
are both wrong, but my usage above ("I rarely hear this
anymore") is unremarkable, in my experience. Of course, "any
more" would also be acceptable here.
Checking a couple of online dictionaries, I notice that the
Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary at
<http://dictionary.cambridge.org>
says "US for 'any more'" but I think that's no longer true,
if it ever was. The Longman Active Study Dictionary, which I
have here, gives "any more" and "anymore" as equivalent in
this sense, with no usage note.

Anyhow, I just wouldn't do it anymore if I were you.

What is this, international prescriptivism day? I have no
objection to "anyhow", either. *"Nohow" is another (or would you
prefer "an other"?) matter.

[John W. Hall]

On Thu, 14 Oct 2004 08:35:33 -0400, "Don Phillipson"

Post by Don Phillipson
Biro was common British usage in the 1950s
and was the brand name of (one of) the first
ballpoint pens then marketed in Britain. It cost about
a pound, then the price of 100 cigarettes...

I recall a schoolmate having a Biro around 1949 - 1951. He told us
that if the ink ran out within a year (or perhaps it was longer), you
could get a free or much less expensive replacement. When the time was
nearly up he could be seen scribbling on scrap paper during class.

[Jess Askin]

Post by Don Phillipson
[Beware using "anymore" for any more.]

John Simon, in his review of Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore (1974), added
that alleged solecism to his litany of complaints against the film (and
against the universe in general, for that matter). Boy does that seem like
a long time ago.

[dcw]

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

There are biroid life-forms in HHGttG.

David

[Mark Barratt]

Post by dcw

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

There are biroid life-forms in HHGttG.

I understand that H2G2 is the Totally-Official abbreviation. And
don't give too much away about this week's installment - I don't
listen to it until it goes online after the Thursday night repeat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hitchhikers/

[Dylan Nicholson]

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by dcw

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

There are biroid life-forms in HHGttG.

I understand that H2G2 is the Totally-Official abbreviation.

Well lowercase h2g2 refers to the official website that Adams set up
some time ago. I'd not seen uppercase H2G2 used to refer to the
original book/radio show/TV series until very recently, but
acronymfinder.com agrees with you, and a few other miscellaneous
Google hits do also. It's an odd sort of acronym, given that the 2s
aren't short for the word "to" as might be expected, but rather
indicate two Hs and two Gs.

[Richard Chambers]

Post by dcw

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

There are biroid life-forms in HHGttG.
David

[Richard Chambers]

Post by dcw

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

There are biroid life-forms in HHGttG.
David

[Mark Barratt]

Post by dcw

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was
usually referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian
inventor, László Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if
ever, hear this usage anymore.

There are biroid life-forms in HHGttG.

Richard is plainly reserving judgement on this one. Doubly so.

[Richard Chambers]

Post by dcw
There are biroid life-forms in HHGttG.

In HHGttG there was a paranoid biroid who took a steroid and became a
hyperandroid.

Richard Chambers Leeds UK.

[Mike Mooney]

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

Is Biró a particularly common name in Hungary? I once briefly worked with an
elderly Hungarian chap called Frank Biró - never got around to asking him if
he was related to the ball-point pen man.

Mike M
Now playing: "Have You Got A Biro I Can Borrow?" (Pete Atkin)

[Adrian Bailey]

Post by Mike Mooney

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

Most schoolkids don't now seem to know the word, though it was pretty much
the norm back in the 80s. Even as recently as that there was quite a lot of
fountain-pen use in schools so the word was necessarier than it is now.

Post by Mike Mooney
Is Biró a particularly common name in Hungary? I once briefly worked with an
elderly Hungarian chap called Frank Biró - never got around to asking him if
he was related to the ball-point pen man.

Yes, it's a commonish name (meaning "judge"). The Hungarian for "pen"
(ballpoint or otherwise) is "toll", ie. "feather". (99% of) Hungarians have
never heard of the famous Mr Biro.

Adrian

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Adrian Bailey

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

Most schoolkids don't now seem to know the word, though it was pretty much
the norm back in the 80s. Even as recently as that there was quite a lot of
fountain-pen use in schools so the word was necessarier than it is now.

Even necessarierer in the 1960s, when biros were forbidden in schools
on the grounds that they led to sloppy handwriting.

[Adrian Bailey]

Post by Peter Moylan
Even necessarierer

Oy!

Adrian ;-)

[Django Cat]

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.
Comments?

I recently used the novel 'What a Carve up' by Jonathon Coe (published
in the US as something like 'The Winslow family') as a set book with
a group of Spanish and Italian students. There's a fairly laboured
joke where the central character is writing a book review and spends
days looking for the mot juste to complete it: "this writer lacks the
necessary... panache? elan? style?"

Eventually he finds the word he wants: "this writer lacks the
necessary... BRIO!"

Pleased with his erudition, the character finally sends his review in.
Unfortunately the paper prints: "this writer lacks the necessary
*biro*", suggesting that if only the correct ballpoint pen had been
available...

It's not a bad gag, but by the time I'd explained it to the class, and
pointed out that 'biro' wasn't a very current generic term for a
ballpoint, there wasn't a lot of humour left...

For that matter, I was taught in school French that asking for 'un
bic' was a dead cool way to request a biro in French. I tried it
once, in a cafe in Nantes, and got a totally blank reaction.

DC

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Django Cat
For that matter, I was taught in school French that asking for
'un bic' was a dead cool way to request a biro in French. I
tried it once, in a cafe in Nantes, and got a totally blank
reaction.

I've certainly heard "un bic" many times - maybe even in Nantes,
which is the last place that I stayed in France. It may be that
French usage parallels the English. At one time, if you asked for
a pen, you wouldn't have expected to be given a ballpoint,
whereas today it's exactly what you'd expect.

Presumably "un stylo" elicited the required implement? If not,
then perhaps your pronunciation was at fault.

[Django Cat]

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Django Cat
For that matter, I was taught in school French that asking for
'un bic' was a dead cool way to request a biro in French. I
tried it once, in a cafe in Nantes, and got a totally blank
reaction.

I've certainly heard "un bic" many times - maybe even in Nantes,
which is the last place that I stayed in France. It may be that
French usage parallels the English. At one time, if you asked for
a pen, you wouldn't have expected to be given a ballpoint,
whereas today it's exactly what you'd expect.
Presumably "un stylo" elicited the required implement? If not,
then perhaps your pronunciation was at fault.

So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word 'bic'
was also used. The waitress got one from behind the bar and as she
passed her colleague explained sarcastically 'ca, c'est un bic'. Oh
well, just another hard day in a French cafe. This all happened about
1990; waitresses standard teenagers; I'd have learnt 'bic' late 70s
ish.

Nobody seems to understand my pronunication in the North West of
England these days, which is a lot more worrying.
DC

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Django Cat

Post by Mark Barratt
Presumably "un stylo" elicited the required implement? If not,
then perhaps your pronunciation was at fault.

So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word
'bic' was also used. The waitress got one from behind the bar
and as she passed her colleague explained sarcastically 'ca,
c'est un bic'. Oh well, just another hard day in a French
cafe. This all happened about 1990; waitresses standard
teenagers; I'd have learnt 'bic' late 70s ish.
Nobody seems to understand my pronunication in the North West of
England these days, which is a lot more worrying.

If you say things like "waitresses standard teenagers" I'm not
surprised. It took me four passes to figure that one out.

[Django Cat]

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Django Cat

Post by Mark Barratt
Presumably "un stylo" elicited the required implement? If not,
then perhaps your pronunciation was at fault.

So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word
'bic' was also used. The waitress got one from behind the bar
and as she passed her colleague explained sarcastically 'ca,
c'est un bic'. Oh well, just another hard day in a French
cafe. This all happened about 1990; waitresses standard
teenagers; I'd have learnt 'bic' late 70s ish.
Nobody seems to understand my pronunication in the North West of
England these days, which is a lot more worrying.

If you say things like "waitresses standard teenagers" I'm not
surprised. It took me four passes to figure that one out.

[Raspberry]

[Pierre Jelenc]

Post by Django Cat
So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word 'bic'
was also used.

It definitely used to be; when I was in secondary school, it was the
ordinary word, while "stylo-bille" was the fancy word on official
pronouncements banning said item. Today, it appears that competition
evened the field and "stylo-bille" or plain "stylo" (which used to mean
fountain pen) have won.

Pierre

[Donna Richoux]

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by Django Cat
So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word 'bic'
was also used.

It definitely used to be; when I was in secondary school, it was the
ordinary word, while "stylo-bille" was the fancy word on official
pronouncements banning said item. Today, it appears that competition
evened the field and "stylo-bille" or plain "stylo" (which used to mean
fountain pen) have won.

"Où est la plume de ma tante?" used to be the opening line in the French
lessons of a lot of English speakers, judging by humorous references. Is
"plume" as outdated now as "quill pen" is?

[John Dean]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by Django Cat
So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word 'bic'
was also used.

It definitely used to be; when I was in secondary school, it was the
ordinary word, while "stylo-bille" was the fancy word on official
pronouncements banning said item. Today, it appears that competition
evened the field and "stylo-bille" or plain "stylo" (which used to
mean fountain pen) have won.

"Où est la plume de ma tante?" used to be the opening line in the
French lessons of a lot of English speakers, judging by humorous
references. Is "plume" as outdated now as "quill pen" is?

One of the problems today is that few people are prepared to assist the
traveller whose postillion has been struck by lightning.

[Robin Bignall]

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 00:51:05 +0100, "John Dean"

Post by John Dean

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by Django Cat
So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word 'bic'
was also used.

It definitely used to be; when I was in secondary school, it was the
ordinary word, while "stylo-bille" was the fancy word on official
pronouncements banning said item. Today, it appears that competition
evened the field and "stylo-bille" or plain "stylo" (which used to
mean fountain pen) have won.

"Où est la plume de ma tante?" used to be the opening line in the
French lessons of a lot of English speakers, judging by humorous
references. Is "plume" as outdated now as "quill pen" is?

One of the problems today is that few people are prepared to assist the
traveller whose postillion has been struck by lightning.

Ou est les jump-leads pour ma batterie plate?
Ils sont dans la garage de mon oncle. Merde dure, Jaques!

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Robin Bignall
Ou est les jump-leads pour ma batterie plate?
Ils sont dans la garage de mon oncle. Merde dure, Jaques!

Bonjour Jacques, est-ce que vous avez un nouvel moteur?

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Robin Bignall
Ou est les jump-leads pour ma batterie plate?
Ils sont dans la garage de mon oncle. Merde dure, Jaques!

Bonjour Jacques, est-ce que vous avez un nouvel moteur?

Un nouvel moteur? <checks last night's wine bottle> Better stuff
than I thought. Let's try "un moteur nouveau".

[Robert Bannister]

Post by John Dean

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by Django Cat
So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word 'bic'
was also used.

It definitely used to be; when I was in secondary school, it was the
ordinary word, while "stylo-bille" was the fancy word on official
pronouncements banning said item. Today, it appears that competition
evened the field and "stylo-bille" or plain "stylo" (which used to
mean fountain pen) have won.

"Où est la plume de ma tante?" used to be the opening line in the
French lessons of a lot of English speakers, judging by humorous
references. Is "plume" as outdated now as "quill pen" is?

One of the problems today is that few people are prepared to assist the
traveller whose postillion has been struck by lightning.

I alway liked "Cochon, le printemps a cassé", for "Coachman, the spring
has broken."

[m***@comcast.net]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by Django Cat
So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word 'bic'
was also used.

It definitely used to be; when I was in secondary school, it was the
ordinary word, while "stylo-bille" was the fancy word on official
pronouncements banning said item. Today, it appears that competition
evened the field and "stylo-bille" or plain "stylo" (which used to mean
fountain pen) have won.

"Où est la plume de ma tante?" used to be the opening line in the French
lessons of a lot of English speakers, judging by humorous references. Is
"plume" as outdated now as "quill pen" is?

When I first started learning Spanish, in 1970, we were taught "la
pluma" for the pen. I read in later textbooks and dictionaries
another, more updated word, but no matter how many times I look it up,
I forget it. Only the older word sticks in my head. Well, it got the
job done. When I was around a lot of Mexicans, at work and at home (my
children are half-Mexican, straight off the rancho), asking for "la
pluma" got me the requested item.

[Ross Howard]

On Mon, 18 Oct 2004 01:31:10 -0400,

Post by m***@comcast.net

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by Django Cat
So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word 'bic'
was also used.

It definitely used to be; when I was in secondary school, it was the
ordinary word, while "stylo-bille" was the fancy word on official
pronouncements banning said item. Today, it appears that competition
evened the field and "stylo-bille" or plain "stylo" (which used to mean
fountain pen) have won.

"Où est la plume de ma tante?" used to be the opening line in the French
lessons of a lot of English speakers, judging by humorous references. Is
"plume" as outdated now as "quill pen" is?

When I first started learning Spanish, in 1970, we were taught "la
pluma" for the pen. I read in later textbooks and dictionaries
another, more updated word, but no matter how many times I look it up,
I forget it.

Nowadays in Spain it's usually *bolígrafo* (colloq.: *boli*) or
rotulador (slang: *rotu*), although "wet ink" (i.e.
fountain/cartridge) pens are still called *plumas*.

--
Ross Howard

[Pierre Jelenc]

Post by Donna Richoux
"Où est la plume de ma tante?" used to be the opening line in the French
lessons of a lot of English speakers, judging by humorous references. Is
"plume" as outdated now as "quill pen" is?

"Plume" (etymologically "quill" or "feather") actually means nib or
penpoint, and it is inserted into a penholder (porte-plume) or a fountain
pen (stylo).

The word is as rare today as the object itself, but it is not obsolete or
archaic; furthermore it is used figuratively in several common phrases
such as "prendre la plume" (to write, to start writing), "vivre de sa
plume" (to earn a living from one's writing), etc.

Pierre

[Arcadian Rises]

Post by Pierre Jelenc
"Plume" (etymologically "quill" or "feather") actually means nib or
penpoint, and it is inserted into a penholder (porte-plume) or a fountain
pen (stylo).
The word is as rare today as the object itself, but it is not obsolete or
archaic; furthermore it is used figuratively in several common phrases
such as "prendre la plume" (to write, to start writing), "vivre de sa
plume" (to earn a living from one's writing), etc.

Also "nom de plume".

[Pierre Jelenc]

Post by Arcadian Rises
Also "nom de plume".

But not in French...

Pierre

[Raymond S. Wise]

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by Arcadian Rises
Also "nom de plume".

But not in French...
Pierre
--
Pierre Jelenc | New on Home Office Records: Ethan Lipton
| www.homeofficerecords.com www.ethanlipton.com
The Gigometer | Pepper Of The Earth: the HO blog
www.gigometer.com | www.homeofficerecords.com/blog

While "nom de plume" was "probably coined in English," as the
*Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary* puts it,
is not entirely unknown in French. The *Trésor de la Langue Française
informatisé* ("TLFi") at

http://atilf.atilf.fr/tlf.htm

lists it as a subentry of "nom":


"_Nom de plume, de théâtre._ Pseudonyme (d'apr. GITEAU 1970, SCHUWER Éd.
1977)."


If it was considered to be a non-naturalized term, I would have expected
them to identify it as a foreign term, or not to have included it at all.

By the way, our French conversation group at the Barnes & Noble Bookstore at
Har Mar Mall in Roseville, Minnesota was interviewed (in French) last
Thursday by Frank Desoer of *Sans Frontières,* Radio-Canada and he expected
that it would be broadcast next Wednesday. It should be available on the
Internet via streaming audio. The subject was the current presidential
election and our opinions about the international and domestic situation.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by Donna Richoux
"Où est la plume de ma tante?" used to be the opening line in the
French lessons of a lot of English speakers, judging by humorous
references. Is "plume" as outdated now as "quill pen" is?

"Plume" (etymologically "quill" or "feather") actually means nib or
penpoint, and it is inserted into a penholder (porte-plume) or a
fountain pen (stylo).

[...]

My English version of Haydn's _Creation_ has the lovely aria "On
mighty pens uplifted soars the eagle aloft, the eagle aloft". OED
says this translation dates from 1800, and goes on to give a later
example from Bridges, which, particularly as the subject is Eros,
compositors should beware: "He flasht his pens".

Mike.

Mike.

[R H Draney]

Post by Mike Lyle
My English version of Haydn's _Creation_ has the lovely aria "On
mighty pens uplifted soars the eagle aloft, the eagle aloft". OED
says this translation dates from 1800, and goes on to give a later
example from Bridges, which, particularly as the subject is Eros,
compositors should beware: "He flasht his pens".

Sounds like the translator was a PIP..."on mighty pins uplifted" would work;
you'd simply assume it was short for "pinions"....r

[m***@comcast.net]

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by Django Cat
So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word 'bic'
was also used.

It definitely used to be; when I was in secondary school, it was the
ordinary word, while "stylo-bille" was the fancy word on official
pronouncements banning said item. Today, it appears that competition
evened the field and "stylo-bille" or plain "stylo" (which used to mean
fountain pen) have won.
Pierre

The first time I read "Brat Farrar", the word stylo threw me. I
thought something specialized, as used in artwork (I preferred working
in charcoal in school, so only the various grades of charcoal and
smudging were in my artistic vocabulary). It took a few readings to
get the meaning. This was pre-computer (and thus pre-Google) days and
my only dictionary was an abridged American one that was pushed with
school supplies in the stores in September.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by m***@comcast.net

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by Django Cat
So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word 'bic'
was also used.

It definitely used to be; when I was in secondary school, it was the
ordinary word, while "stylo-bille" was the fancy word on official
pronouncements banning said item. Today, it appears that

competition

Post by m***@comcast.net

Post by Pierre Jelenc
evened the field and "stylo-bille" or plain "stylo" (which used to
mean fountain pen) have won.
Pierre

The first time I read "Brat Farrar", the word stylo threw me. I
thought something specialized, as used in artwork (I preferred

working

Post by m***@comcast.net
in charcoal in school, so only the various grades of charcoal and
smudging were in my artistic vocabulary). It took a few readings to
get the meaning. This was pre-computer (and thus pre-Google) days and
my only dictionary was an abridged American one that was pushed with
school supplies in the stores in September.

I once had a stylograph: I think I must have got it at a jumble sale,
unless it appeared in a box of family junk. I don't know how well it
had functioned when new, but when I tried it it just blobbed ink all
over the paper when I wrote with it, and leaked when I put it down.
It must clearly have been the inspiration for Mr Biro's ball-point.

(Some readers may need to know that a "stylo" was a Victorian kind of
fountain-pen which had a needle-valve in the point instead of a nib.)

Mike.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by m***@comcast.net

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by Django Cat
So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word

'bic'

Post by m***@comcast.net

Post by Pierre Jelenc

Post by Django Cat
was also used.

It definitely used to be; when I was in secondary school, it was

the

Post by m***@comcast.net

Post by Pierre Jelenc
ordinary word, while "stylo-bille" was the fancy word on official
pronouncements banning said item. Today, it appears that

competition

Post by m***@comcast.net

Post by Pierre Jelenc
evened the field and "stylo-bille" or plain "stylo" (which used to
mean fountain pen) have won.
Pierre

The first time I read "Brat Farrar", the word stylo threw me. I
thought something specialized, as used in artwork (I preferred

working

Post by m***@comcast.net
in charcoal in school, so only the various grades of charcoal and
smudging were in my artistic vocabulary). It took a few readings to
get the meaning. This was pre-computer (and thus pre-Google) days

and

Post by m***@comcast.net
my only dictionary was an abridged American one that was pushed

with

Post by m***@comcast.net
school supplies in the stores in September.

I once had a stylograph: I think I must have got it at a jumble sale,
unless it appeared in a box of family junk. I don't know how well it
had functioned when new, but when I tried it it just blobbed ink all
over the paper when I wrote with it, and leaked when I put it down.
It must clearly have been the inspiration for Mr Biro's ball-point.
(Some readers may need to know that a "stylo" was a Victorian kind of
fountain-pen which had a needle-valve in the point instead of a nib.)
Mike.

Then again, there was the stylus we used to use to write on those blue
Gestetner things.

[Isabelle Cecchini]

Mike Lyle a écrit :
[...]

Post by Mike Lyle
I once had a stylograph: I think I must have got it at a jumble sale,
unless it appeared in a box of family junk. I don't know how well it
had functioned when new, but when I tried it it just blobbed ink all
over the paper when I wrote with it, and leaked when I put it down.
It must clearly have been the inspiration for Mr Biro's ball-point.
(Some readers may need to know that a "stylo" was a Victorian kind of
fountain-pen which had a needle-valve in the point instead of a nib.)

I have just finished watching /The Age of Innocence/. At one point
Daniel Day-Lewis shows Michelle Pfeiffer his "new stylograph" with quite
a proud smile. The lady looks half fascinated half horrified, while he
nearly manages to stain her pretty dress.

How could I have missed that highly significant scene when I first saw
the movie, I don't know.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Isabelle Cecchini
[...]

Post by Mike Lyle
I once had a stylograph: I think I must have got it at a jumble sale,
unless it appeared in a box of family junk. I don't know how well it
had functioned when new, but when I tried it it just blobbed ink all
over the paper when I wrote with it, and leaked when I put it

down.

Post by Isabelle Cecchini

Post by Mike Lyle
It must clearly have been the inspiration for Mr Biro's

ball-point.

Post by Isabelle Cecchini

Post by Mike Lyle
(Some readers may need to know that a "stylo" was a Victorian kind of
fountain-pen which had a needle-valve in the point instead of a nib.)

I have just finished watching /The Age of Innocence/. At one point
Daniel Day-Lewis shows Michelle Pfeiffer his "new stylograph" with
quite a proud smile. The lady looks half fascinated half horrified,
while he nearly manages to stain her pretty dress.
How could I have missed that highly significant scene when I first saw
the movie, I don't know.

Guess it's a boy thing.

Mike.

[Jim Ward]

Post by Django Cat
So I asked for a stylo, and said that I'd been taught the word 'bic'
was also used. The waitress got one from behind the bar and as she
passed her colleague explained sarcastically 'ca, c'est un bic'. Oh
well, just another hard day in a French cafe. This all happened about
1990; waitresses standard teenagers; I'd have learnt 'bic' late 70s
ish.

You think she'd know that BIC was the French name for the brio.

http://www.bicworld.com/inter_us/stationery/product_history/index.asp

[Jim Ward]

Post by Jim Ward
You think she'd know that BIC was the French name for the brio.

^
biro.
(There is no hope for me.)

[Jess Askin]

Post by Django Cat

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.
Comments?

I recently used the novel 'What a Carve up' by Jonathon Coe (published
in the US as something like 'The Winslow family') as a set book with
a group of Spanish and Italian students. There's a fairly laboured
joke where the central character is writing a book review and spends
days looking for the mot juste to complete it: "this writer lacks the
necessary... panache? elan? style?"
Eventually he finds the word he wants: "this writer lacks the
necessary... BRIO!"
Pleased with his erudition, the character finally sends his review in.
Unfortunately the paper prints: "this writer lacks the necessary
*biro*", suggesting that if only the correct ballpoint pen had been
available...
It's not a bad gag, but by the time I'd explained it to the class, and
pointed out that 'biro' wasn't a very current generic term for a
ballpoint, there wasn't a lot of humour left...
For that matter, I was taught in school French that asking for 'un
bic' was a dead cool way to request a biro in French. I tried it
once, in a cafe in Nantes, and got a totally blank reaction.

No doubt they thought you were asking for a "bique" (=E "nanny goat").

[Dylan Nicholson]

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

It's still used here (Australia), but perhaps not as much as it
was 15 or 20 years ago (as far as back as I can personally remember).

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

Wasn't it also used as a trademark, for a certain make of ballpoint pen? When
that was no longer available, the name died, because other manufacturers would
not have used it.

[Alec McKenzie]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

Wasn't it also used as a trademark, for a certain make of ballpoint pen? When
that was no longer available, the name died, because other manufacturers would
not have used it.

Yes, it was a trade name. But, strangely enough, when the ballpoint pen
was first put on the market, the name was not 'Biro'. It was 'Birome'.

[Mike Mooney]

Post by Alec McKenzie

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.

Wasn't it also used as a trademark, for a certain make of ballpoint pen? When
that was no longer available, the name died, because other manufacturers would
not have used it.

Yes, it was a trade name. But, strangely enough, when the ballpoint pen
was first put on the market, the name was not 'Biro'. It was 'Birome'.

This whole thread has been the first I knew that:

(a) "Biro" for a ballpoint pen was not used ine the US as well as the UK
(b) It has apparently been obsolete in the UK for 20 years or so

I still use the word daily, and as far as I can tell, everybody (even kids)
understand it perfectly - I never get the "What???" response when I say it.
I'm sure my teenage kids call Biros Biros.

Mike M

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Alec McKenzie

On 14 Oct 2004 11:20:47 GMT, "Mark Barratt"

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was
usually referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian
inventor, László Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if
ever, hear this usage anymore.

Wasn't it also used as a trademark, for a certain make of
ballpoint pen? When that was no longer available, the name
died, because other manufacturers would not have used it.

Yes, it was a trade name. But, strangely enough, when the
ballpoint pen was first put on the market, the name was not
'Biro'. It was 'Birome'.

I did some googling on this, with interesting results, including
one purported reference site (which shall be nameless) which
states unequivocably that the device was invented by that famous
Italian, Lazio Biro.

Upthread, Adrian says that most Hungarians have never heard of
László Biró. This is understandable, in that the actual inventor
turns out to be the Argentinian, Ladislao Josef Biró. "Birome"
was formed from his name and that of a company (presumably his
backers) called Meyne. Argentinians are generally aware, it
seems, that the ballpoint pen is an Argentinian invention. How
many of them are aware that Biró was a Hungarian immigrant who
had latinised his name, I can't say.

"Birome" is mostly to be found on Spanish pages, so it's possible
that the name wasn't used outside of Argentina.

The real inventor of today's ubiquitous pen was the Frenchman
Marcel Bich (1914-94), who bought Biró's patent and developed the
technology to mass-produce a cheap, disposable but reliable
version in 1950. An obituary of him at
<http://www.obituariestoday.com/Obituaries/ObitShow.cfm?Obituary_I
D=30082&section=pin>
says: 'Bich christened his new disposable pen by slashing a
letter of his name to create the catchy "Bic." ' - this competes
with explanations found elsewhere on the web which say that it
comes from "Biró Crayon" ("crayon" is French for pencil).

Bich's other main claim to fame seems to have been sponsoring
several losing attempts to win the yachting trophy, The Americas
Cup:

"In 1970 he spent $3 million and worked fourteen hours a day
preparing for the event, only to lose ignominiously when his
sloop France got lost in the fog off Newport."

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Post by Mark Barratt
Upthread, Adrian says that most Hungarians have never heard of
László Biró. This is understandable, in that the actual inventor
turns out to be the Argentinian, Ladislao Josef Biró. "Birome"
was formed from his name and that of a company (presumably his
backers) called Meyne. Argentinians are generally aware, it
seems, that the ballpoint pen is an Argentinian invention. How
many of them are aware that Biró was a Hungarian immigrant who
had latinised his name, I can't say.

I'm not sure if you're joking here or not, but according to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballpoint_pen

he (with his brother Georg) invented the pen in 1938 in Hungary and
moved to Argentina in 1943.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If all else fails, embarrass the
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |industry into doing the right
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |thing.
| Dean Thompson
***@hpl.hp.com
[phone]

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Mark Barratt
Upthread, Adrian says that most Hungarians have never heard of
László Biró. This is understandable, in that the actual
inventor turns out to be the Argentinian, Ladislao Josef
Biró. "Birome" was formed from his name and that of a company
(presumably his backers) called Meyne. Argentinians are
generally aware, it seems, that the ballpoint pen is an
Argentinian invention. How many of them are aware that Biró
was a Hungarian immigrant who had latinised his name, I can't
say.

I'm not sure if you're joking here or not, but according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballpoint_pen
he (with his brother Georg) invented the pen in 1938 in Hungary
and moved to Argentina in 1943.

The research I did suggests that the first production model was
developed in Argentina - apparently they ran out of financial
backing in Hungary. I don't know what the 1938 date refers to -
maybe a patent, or a first prototype. I spent about an hour
Googling, but there's a lot of stuff out there about Biró, a lot
of it contradictory. My favourite was the "Lazio Biro" one.

If you're interested in finding out more, I'd suggest searching
in Spanish on Biró and Meyne - I ran a couple of Spanish pages
through BabelFish, but I didn't find out much, except that there
*are* Argentinians who think of the Biro as "theirs".

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Mark Barratt
Upthread, Adrian says that most Hungarians have never heard of
László Biró. This is understandable, in that the actual
inventor turns out to be the Argentinian, Ladislao Josef
Biró. "Birome" was formed from his name and that of a company
(presumably his backers) called Meyne. Argentinians are
generally aware, it seems, that the ballpoint pen is an
Argentinian invention. How many of them are aware that Biró
was a Hungarian immigrant who had latinised his name, I can't
say.

I'm not sure if you're joking here or not, but according to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballpoint_pen
he (with his brother Georg) invented the pen in 1938 in Hungary
and moved to Argentina in 1943.

The research I did suggests that the first production model was
developed in Argentina - apparently they ran out of financial
backing in Hungary. I don't know what the 1938 date refers to -
maybe a patent, or a first prototype. I spent about an hour
Googling, but there's a lot of stuff out there about Biró, a lot
of it contradictory. My favourite was the "Lazio Biro" one.
If you're interested in finding out more, I'd suggest searching
in Spanish on Biró and Meyne - I ran a couple of Spanish pages
through BabelFish, but I didn't find out much, except that there
*are* Argentinians who think of the Biro as "theirs".

US Patent 2,258,841 to inventor Laszlo Jossef Biro of Buenos Aires,
Argentina, assignor to Luis Lang of the same town, applied for on 14
October 1941, derives from a previous (probably unpublished) application
filed December 27, 1938. I didn't see an earlier English language
patent.

<http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?CY=ep&LG=en&F=4&IDX=US2258841&DB=EPODOC&
QPN=US2258841> may work or may be too far down a search tree to show
directly.

From the text, other ball point pens were already known.

French patent no. 839,929, applied for on 28 June, 1938, at 16hr 31m,
that is to say at teatime, was granted to M. Laszlo Jossef Biro,
résidant en Hongrie. It claims priority from a Hungarian application
filed 25 April 1938. This is the earliest date I found.

<http://v3.espacenet.com/origdoc?CY=ep&LG=en&F=4&IDX=FR839929&DB=EPODOC&Q
PN=FR839929> if anyone's interested.

The 1983 Swiss patent no. 661960 - inventor Laszlo Biro (or Biro Laszlo)
- is for a silo (shome mishtake, shurely).

Laszlo Jossef/Jozsef/Josef was still inventing writing instruments to
the late 1940s. These later patents were variously applied for by Henry
George Martin, Eversharp inc., and Eterpen SA Financiera.

That's the answer. Now, what was the question?

[Ray Heindl]

Post by Steve Hayes
Wasn't it also used as a trademark, for a certain make of
ballpoint pen? When that was no longer available, the name died,
because other manufacturers would not have used it.

According to bicworld.com, Bic started making a pen called the Biro in
1982: "BIC® Biro (Round Stic) pen is launched, one of the best selling
pens in North America." I suspect this is the type that can be used to
pick certain bicycle (and similar round-key) locks.

That site also spells Biro's first name three different ways: Laslo,
Ladislao, and Ladislas.

[Reinhold (Rey) Aman]

Post by Mark Barratt
When I was young, I remember that a ballpoint pen was usually
referred to as a "biro" (after its Hungarian inventor, László
Biró). It seems to me that I rarely, if ever, hear this usage
anymore.
Comments?

Sure, Mark. The explanation is simple: It was the uncertainty of how
to pronounce "biro" that caused this word's demise. Picture the
following real-life situation in a typical English stationery shoppe:

Customer: Morning. I wish to purchase a biro {BEE-row}.
Clark: A wot?
Customer: A {BEE-row}.
Clark: Dreadfully sorry, sir, but I don't understand what
you want.
Customer: A {BEE-row}. A bleedin' {BEE-row}!
Clark: How is that word spelt?
Customer: Bee aye are owe. {BEE-row}!
Clark: Oh, dear. You mean {BYE-row}.
Customer: No! Bloody 'ell, I mean {BEE-row}.
Clark: {BYE-row}.
Customer: {BEE-row}, dammit!
Clark: {BYE-row}.
Customer: {BEE-row}!
Clark: Sorry, it's called a {BYE-row}.
Shoppe Owner: Wot's all this about then?
Clark: This here gentleman wishes to buy a {BYE-row}.
Shoppe Owner: A wot?
Clark: A {BYE-row}.
Customer: No, no, no. A {BEE-row}!
Shoppe Owner: Would you moynd spellin' this word for me, sir?
Customer: Bee aye are owe. {BEE-row}!
Shoppe Owner: Oh, Oy see. You mean {boy-ROW}.
Customer: No, I bloody well don't mean that. I mean {BEE-row}!
Shoppe Owner: {BEE-row, SHMEE-row}. Educated gents calls 'em
{boy-ROWS}, wiff the stress on the second syllable, loyke
the Frogs' b-u-r-e-a-u, {byoo-ROW}.
Customer [exasperated]: Fine, fine. Well, um... adopt, adapt
and improve. Just a pair of knickers then, please.*
[*Thank you, Monty Python.]

I'm certain that you can understand that the multiple ways of
pronouncing "biro" {BEE-row, BYE-row, boy-ROW, etc.} caused confusion,
resentment, and economic losses. Thus the word "biro" was dropped in
the 1960s, and every proper Englishperson started calling ballpoint pens
"lászlósz" {LAHSS-lohss}.

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
I'm certain that you can understand that the multiple ways of
pronouncing "biro" {BEE-row, BYE-row, boy-ROW, etc.} caused
confusion, resentment, and economic losses. Thus the word
"biro" was dropped in the 1960s, and every proper Englishperson
started calling ballpoint pens "lászlósz" {LAHSS-lohss}.

Oy! "lászlók", if you don't mind!

[Reinhold (Rey) Aman]

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
I'm certain that you can understand that the multiple ways of
pronouncing "biro" {BEE-row, BYE-row, boy-ROW, etc.} caused
confusion, resentment, and economic losses. Thus the word
"biro" was dropped in the 1960s, and every proper Englishperson
started calling ballpoint pens "lászlósz" {LAHSS-lohss}.

Oy! "lászlók", if you don't mind!

Oy, me bleedin' arse. Them Brits don't use no Hungarian plurals.

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
I'm certain that you can understand that the multiple ways
of pronouncing "biro" {BEE-row, BYE-row, boy-ROW, etc.}
caused confusion, resentment, and economic losses. Thus
the word "biro" was dropped in the 1960s, and every proper
Englishperson started calling ballpoint pens "lászlósz"
{LAHSS-lohss}.

Oy! "lászlók", if you don't mind!

Oy, me bleedin' arse. Them Brits don't use no Hungarian plurals.

Uel, lyu sím tu háv ász ödapting Hángériön aafagrafí. Gyu nat fíl
ui sőd ödapt Hángérian maafaladzsí tú?

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
I'm certain that you can understand that the multiple ways
of pronouncing "biro" {BEE-row, BYE-row, boy-ROW, etc.}
caused confusion, resentment, and economic losses. Thus
the word "biro" was dropped in the 1960s, and every proper
Englishperson started calling ballpoint pens "lászlósz"
{LAHSS-lohss}.

Oy! "lászlók", if you don't mind!

Oy, me bleedin' arse. Them Brits don't use no Hungarian plurals.

Uel, lyu sím tu háv ász ödapting Hángériön aafagrafí. Gyu nat fíl
ui sõd ödapt Hángérian maafaladzsí tú?

Oy! "szím", right? I like "Gyu", though.

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
I'm certain that you can understand that the multiple
ways of pronouncing "biro" {BEE-row, BYE-row, boy-ROW,
etc.} caused confusion, resentment, and economic
losses. Thus the word "biro" was dropped in the 1960s,
and every proper Englishperson started calling
ballpoint pens "lászlósz" {LAHSS-lohss}.

Oy! "lászlók", if you don't mind!

Oy, me bleedin' arse. Them Brits don't use no Hungarian
plurals.

Uel, lyu sím tu háv ász ödapting Hángériön aafagrafí. Gyu nat
fíl ui sod ödapt Hángérian maafaladzsí tú?

Oy! "szím", right?

"szím" it is - I do struggle with that s = [S] and sz = [s]
thing. I swear Hungarian would be easier if it used a different
script. If I learn Serbo-Croat I'm going to begin with the
cyrillic.

Post by Jerry Friedman
I like "Gyu", though.

I struggled to work that in, given that it's so hard to avoid [T]
and [D] in English. You'll have noticed that I had to settle for
an 'f' in "orfography".

Hungarian connections, Jerry, or just your love of puzzles and
some research?

[Reinhold (Rey) Aman]

[...]

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Jerry Friedman
Oy! "szím", right?

"szím" it is - I do struggle with
that s = [S] and sz = [s] thing.

For even more confusion, try a bit of Polisz.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[...]

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Jerry Friedman
Oy! "szím", right?

"szím" it is - I do struggle with
that s = [S] and sz = [s] thing.

For even more confusion, try a bit of Polisz.

Come, come! I don't think our urbane Mark lacks polisz.

Mike.

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[...]

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Jerry Friedman
Oy! "szím", right?

"szím" it is - I do struggle with
that s = [S] and sz = [s] thing.

For even more confusion, try a bit of Polisz.

Come, come! I don't think our urbane Mark lacks polisz.

Keep your voice down, please! I came here to try and get away
from the polisz. If the rendőrség get to hear that there's a
charge of urbanity hanging over me...

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Mark Barratt
Uel, lyu sím tu háv ász ödapting Hángériön aafagrafí. Gyu nat
fíl ui sod ödapt Hángérian maafaladzsí tú?

Oy! "szím", right?

"szím" it is

...

Post by Mark Barratt
Hungarian connections, Jerry, or just your love of puzzles and
some research?

My Friedman ancestors were from Hungary, though what I know about
Hungarian spelling is... a boring story. I did see your post about
the Hungarian "a", and there's a reason I didn't give you the
"benefit" of my "knowledge". Looks like you decided on [A.] or maybe
[O]?

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Mark Barratt
Uel, lyu sím tu háv ász ödapting Hángériön aafagrafí. Gyu
nat fíl ui sod ödapt Hángérian maafaladzsí tú?

Oy! "szím", right?

"szím" it is

...

Post by Mark Barratt
Hungarian connections, Jerry, or just your love of puzzles and
some research?

My Friedman ancestors were from Hungary, though what I know
about Hungarian spelling is... a boring story. I did see your
post about the Hungarian "a", and there's a reason I didn't
give you the "benefit" of my "knowledge". Looks like you
decided on [A.] or maybe [O]?

I can't actually remember that post, now. My ear tells me that
the Hungarian 'a' is my English /A./, except that in final
position it sometimes sounds like /a/, so it may be that it's
generally just a tad lower than [A.]. I used 'aa' (which actually
isn't possible in Hungarian) for /O:/, above.

"Friedman" is hardly a Hungarian name, though. Teutonic pillagers?

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Mark Barratt
Hungarian connections, Jerry, or just your love of puzzles and
some research?

My Friedman ancestors were from Hungary, though what I know
about Hungarian spelling is... a boring story. I did see your
post about the Hungarian "a", and there's a reason I didn't
give you the "benefit" of my "knowledge". Looks like you
decided on [A.] or maybe [O]?

I can't actually remember that post, now. My ear tells me that
the Hungarian 'a' is my English /A./, except that in final
position it sometimes sounds like /a/, so it may be that it's
generally just a tad lower than [A.]. I used 'aa' (which actually
isn't possible in Hungarian) for /O:/, above.

Finally, something useful on this vowel. Hungarian "a" is usually
described as like English "aw"--but whose?

Post by Mark Barratt
"Friedman" is hardly a Hungarian name, though. Teutonic pillagers?

Less Aryan than that. My impression is that when Maria Theresa
ordered the Jews of the Austrian domains to adopt surnames (for
taxation purposes), many picked names in their mother tongue,
Yiddish--or in Austria's main language, German, which amounted to
pretty much the same thing. A famous example is the mathematician
John von Neumann, born Neumann János in 1903. (His father bought a
patent of nobility in 1913, just in time. Their family must have been
more successful pillagers than mine.)

I know you know a lot of this, but somebody who doesn't is probably
among the lurkers.

[Mark Barratt]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Mark Barratt
"Friedman" is hardly a Hungarian name, though. Teutonic
pillagers?

Less Aryan than that. My impression is that when Maria Theresa
ordered the Jews of the Austrian domains to adopt surnames (for
taxation purposes), many picked names in their mother tongue,
Yiddish--or in Austria's main language, German, which amounted
to pretty much the same thing. A famous example is the
mathematician John von Neumann, born Neumann János in 1903.
(His father bought a patent of nobility in 1913, just in time.
Their family must have been more successful pillagers than
mine.)
I know you know a lot of this, but somebody who doesn't is
probably among the lurkers.

I don't think I knew any of that - except that I did read a short
while ago that Von Neumann was Hungarian, and wondered about the
surname. I'd also been wondering about Hungary's new hero (well,
relatively speaking) of Formula 1 racing, who's called Zsolt
Baumgartner - perhaps the explanation is the same.

What was a patent of nobility?

[Mike Lyle]

Mark Barratt wrote:
[...]

Post by Mark Barratt
What was a patent of nobility?

Gettin a peerage, innit? You know, like when Tony Benn reversed it by
getting told he didn't have to be "von Benn" any more.

Mike.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Mark Barratt
"Friedman" is hardly a Hungarian name, though. Teutonic
pillagers?

Less Aryan than that. My impression is that when Maria Theresa
ordered the Jews of the Austrian domains to adopt surnames (for
taxation purposes), many picked names in their mother tongue,
Yiddish--or in Austria's main language, German, which amounted
to pretty much the same thing. A famous example is the
mathematician John von Neumann, born Neumann János in 1903.
(His father bought a patent of nobility in 1913, just in time.
Their family must have been more successful pillagers than
mine.)
I know you know a lot of this, but somebody who doesn't is
probably among the lurkers.

I don't think I knew any of that -

I meant that you knew Germany was the main language of Austria, for
instance.

Post by Mark Barratt
except that I did read a short
while ago that Von Neumann was Hungarian, and wondered about the
surname. I'd also been wondering about Hungary's new hero (well,
relatively speaking) of Formula 1 racing, who's called Zsolt
Baumgartner - perhaps the explanation is the same.

"Baumgartner" certainly sounds Jewish, but then lots of German names
sound Jewish to me.

Post by Mark Barratt
What was a patent of nobility?

A document certifying that you were in the noble class. Adding "von"
to your name went with it in the German-speaking countries. (Does
this mean that there are or were Hungarian gentlefolk with names like
"von Szekely" or "von Szabo"?) Selling them was a fundraising
technique for the government, like the baronetcy in Britain. At some
point around 1900 (if I'm remembering a biography of Von Neumann
correctly), Austro-Hungarian deficits and liberalization won out over
anti-Semitism, and the Empire started selling patents of nobility
freely to Jews.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman

Post by Mark Barratt

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
I'm certain that you can understand that the multiple ways of
pronouncing "biro" {BEE-row, BYE-row, boy-ROW, etc.} caused
confusion, resentment, and economic losses. Thus the word
"biro" was dropped in the 1960s, and every proper Englishperson
started calling ballpoint pens "lászlósz" {LAHSS-lohss}.

Oy! "lászlók", if you don't mind!

Oy, me bleedin' arse. Them Brits don't use no Hungarian plurals.

Effim righp ma'.

Mike.