variants on the shit/shinola dilemma

[grabber]

The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know. The default version in
BrE (though also present in other Englishes, I dare say) would be "he
doesn't know his arse from his elbow". But there are others.

I've heard "he doesn't know whether his arsehole's bored or punched" and
"he wouldn't know X from a hole in the ground" (X is sometimes "his
arse" but could also be the focus of the alleged incompetence)

(This is not the same type of usage as "I wouldn't know him from Adam"
where there is no suggestion that the lack of knowledge is a shortcoming.)

A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know whether
he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same. (But I
don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh or
cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the panic.)

What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have a
haircut"?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know. The default version in

Very old-fashioned.

Post by grabber
BrE (though also present in other Englishes, I dare say) would be "he
doesn't know his arse from his elbow". But there are others.

familiar (ass, of course)

Post by grabber
I've heard "he doesn't know whether his arsehole's bored or punched" and
"he wouldn't know X from a hole in the ground" (X is sometimes "his
arse" but could also be the focus of the alleged incompetence)
(This is not the same type of usage as "I wouldn't know him from Adam"
where there is no suggestion that the lack of knowledge is a shortcoming.)
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth

can't walk and chew gum at the same time

Post by grabber
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know whether
he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same. (But I
don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh or
cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the panic.)
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have a
haircut"?

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know. The default version in

Very old-fashioned.

Wikipedia is, as so often, useful here, telling us Shinola
shoe polish was sold in the USA from 1903 to 1960.
This enables us to argue whether the fashion we deplore
is the surviving word or the reference to an unavailable
product. Horse-drawn carts are by now "old-fashioned"
but no one complains when we say today someone put the
cart before the horse.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know. The default version in

Very old-fashioned.

Wikipedia is, as so often, useful here, telling us Shinola
shoe polish was sold in the USA from 1903 to 1960.
This enables us to argue whether the fashion we deplore
is the surviving word or the reference to an unavailable
product. Horse-drawn carts are by now "old-fashioned"
but no one complains when we say today someone put the
cart before the horse.

Neither "horse" nor "cart" is a brand name, horse-carts are familiar in myriad
ways, and horse-carts were seen in ordinary use on the streets of New York (not,
though, in my Washington Heights neighborhood) as late as the last season of
*Naked City*, 1963.

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know. The default version in

Very old-fashioned.

Wikipedia is, as so often, useful here, telling us Shinola
shoe polish was sold in the USA from 1903 to 1960.
This enables us to argue whether the fashion we deplore
is the surviving word or the reference to an unavailable
product. Horse-drawn carts are by now "old-fashioned"
but no one complains when we say today someone put the
cart before the horse.

Or "dead as a doornail" which nobody has been able
to explain since 1350.

[Peter Young]

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know. The default version in

Very old-fashioned.

Wikipedia is, as so often, useful here, telling us Shinola
shoe polish was sold in the USA from 1903 to 1960.
This enables us to argue whether the fashion we deplore
is the surviving word or the reference to an unavailable
product. Horse-drawn carts are by now "old-fashioned"
but no one complains when we say today someone put the
cart before the horse.

Or "dead as a doornail" which nobody has been able
to explain since 1350.

Maybe inexplicable, but widely current. From Henry IV part 2, quoted
from memory:

"And is old Double dead?"

"As nail in door".

I think it's all in the alliteration.

Peter.

[occam]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth

can't walk and chew gum at the same time

Nope, your version ('walk and chew gum') is suggestive of a permanent
state of incompetence. I heard it often to describe President Ford. The
'shit or haircut' could describe a one-off state of confusion and panic.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by occam

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth

can't walk and chew gum at the same time

Nope, your version ('walk and chew gum') is suggestive of a permanent
state of incompetence. I heard it often to describe President Ford. The
'shit or haircut' could describe a one-off state of confusion and panic.

Be that as it may, I've never heard it.

Tony is wrong about "fish or cut bait." It simply means choose one of the
alternatives instead of trying to do both.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:53:58 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by occam

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth

can't walk and chew gum at the same time

Nope, your version ('walk and chew gum') is suggestive of a permanent
state of incompetence. I heard it often to describe President Ford. The
'shit or haircut' could describe a one-off state of confusion and panic.

Be that as it may, I've never heard it.
Tony is wrong about "fish or cut bait." It simply means choose one of the
alternatives instead of trying to do both.

Maybe you can supply some support for that, but not at Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_or_cut_bait

It does involve choosing one of the alternatives, but one has to be
the active role.

You would not use it when both alternatives are the equally active
choice but simply different. Choosing between washing or drying the
dishes is not a "fish or cut bait" decision.

Also see:
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fish+or+cut+bait

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/fish-or-cut-bait

Also, from an article in the Boston Globe:

In the century before that, it was "fish or cut bait," or sometimes a
longer expression, as in an 1865 magazine story: "As the mackerel
fisherman said to his passengers, they must do one of three things:
Fish, cut bait, or go ashore." It's sort of a maritime version of
"Lead, follow, or get out of the way."

But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it was still
used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in or out?" - even
though both fish and cut bait, in the literal sense of the saying,
counted as pitching in. And if fish, in the shorter expression, stood
for "say yes, do the work," that left cut bait to mean "drop out,
decide not to do it."

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:53:58 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by occam

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth

can't walk and chew gum at the same time

Nope, your version ('walk and chew gum') is suggestive of a permanent
state of incompetence. I heard it often to describe President Ford. The
'shit or haircut' could describe a one-off state of confusion and panic.

Be that as it may, I've never heard it.
Tony is wrong about "fish or cut bait." It simply means choose one of the
alternatives instead of trying to do both.

Ordinary usage.

Post by Tony Cooper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_or_cut_bait
It does involve choosing one of the alternatives, but one has to be
the active role.
You would not use it when both alternatives are the equally active
choice but simply different. Choosing between washing or drying the
dishes is not a "fish or cut bait" decision.

That seems to be your interpretation, based perhaps on the first time you
heard the expression, when you were a little Hoosierlet.It's not borne out
by the discussion in that article, which several times makes the point that
"fishing" and "cutting bait" were equally important components of the fishing
process.

Post by Tony Cooper
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fish+or+cut+bait
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/fish-or-cut-bait
In the century before that, it was "fish or cut bait," or sometimes a
longer expression, as in an 1865 magazine story: "As the mackerel
Fish, cut bait, or go ashore." It's sort of a maritime version of
"Lead, follow, or get out of the way."
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it was still
used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in or out?" - even

Which is EXACTLY what I said. "Choose one of the alternatives!"

Post by Tony Cooper
though both fish and cut bait, in the literal sense of the saying,
counted as pitching in. And if fish, in the shorter expression, stood
for "say yes, do the work," that left cut bait to mean "drop out,
decide not to do it."

It's not usually said of a yes-no situation, but of a this-or-that situation.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 11:38:52 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:53:58 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by occam

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth

can't walk and chew gum at the same time

Nope, your version ('walk and chew gum') is suggestive of a permanent
state of incompetence. I heard it often to describe President Ford. The
'shit or haircut' could describe a one-off state of confusion and panic.

Be that as it may, I've never heard it.
Tony is wrong about "fish or cut bait." It simply means choose one of the
alternatives instead of trying to do both.

Ordinary usage.

Not in any ordinary usage I've ever encountered. I can't imagine you
engaging in ordinary usage because that requires non-critical
interaction with others.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_or_cut_bait
It does involve choosing one of the alternatives, but one has to be
the active role.
You would not use it when both alternatives are the equally active
choice but simply different. Choosing between washing or drying the
dishes is not a "fish or cut bait" decision.

That seems to be your interpretation, based perhaps on the first time you
heard the expression, when you were a little Hoosierlet.It's not borne out
by the discussion in that article, which several times makes the point that
"fishing" and "cutting bait" were equally important components of the fishing
process.

It is not a matter of which is the most important component. A union
leader addressing union members about a proposed strike may say "Fish
or cut bait". His meaning would be that going out on strike is the
active choice (fish). Not going out on strike is an important
component. But the question is an "in or out" with "in" being active.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fish+or+cut+bait
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/fish-or-cut-bait
In the century before that, it was "fish or cut bait," or sometimes a
longer expression, as in an 1865 magazine story: "As the mackerel
Fish, cut bait, or go ashore." It's sort of a maritime version of
"Lead, follow, or get out of the way."
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it was still
used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in or out?" - even

Which is EXACTLY what I said. "Choose one of the alternatives!"

Not at all. "In" is the active choice. "Out" is the inactive choice.

"Out" can be the active choice as in the union example when a walk-out
or strike is being discussed, but one choice is the active route.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
though both fish and cut bait, in the literal sense of the saying,
counted as pitching in. And if fish, in the shorter expression, stood
for "say yes, do the work," that left cut bait to mean "drop out,
decide not to do it."

It's not usually said of a yes-no situation, but of a this-or-that situation.

Yes, but one of the choices is the active choice. Either the "this"
or the "that" is the active one. They are not choices between equal
alternatives.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 11:38:52 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:53:58 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by occam

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth

can't walk and chew gum at the same time

Nope, your version ('walk and chew gum') is suggestive of a permanent
state of incompetence. I heard it often to describe President Ford. The
'shit or haircut' could describe a one-off state of confusion and panic.

Be that as it may, I've never heard it.
Tony is wrong about "fish or cut bait." It simply means choose one of the
alternatives instead of trying to do both.

Ordinary usage.

Not in any ordinary usage I've ever encountered. I can't imagine you
engaging in ordinary usage because that requires non-critical
interaction with others.

Sorry, but most people don't, like you, try to turn everything into a fight.

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_or_cut_bait
It does involve choosing one of the alternatives, but one has to be
the active role.
You would not use it when both alternatives are the equally active
choice but simply different. Choosing between washing or drying the
dishes is not a "fish or cut bait" decision.

That seems to be your interpretation, based perhaps on the first time you
heard the expression, when you were a little Hoosierlet.It's not borne out
by the discussion in that article, which several times makes the point that
"fishing" and "cutting bait" were equally important components of the fishing
process.

It is not a matter of which is the most important component. A union
leader addressing union members about a proposed strike may say "Fish
or cut bait". His meaning would be that going out on strike is the
active choice (fish). Not going out on strike is an important
component. But the question is an "in or out" with "in" being active.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fish+or+cut+bait
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/fish-or-cut-bait
In the century before that, it was "fish or cut bait," or sometimes a
longer expression, as in an 1865 magazine story: "As the mackerel
Fish, cut bait, or go ashore." It's sort of a maritime version of
"Lead, follow, or get out of the way."
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it was still
used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in or out?" - even

Which is EXACTLY what I said. "Choose one of the alternatives!"

Not at all. "In" is the active choice. "Out" is the inactive choice.
"Out" can be the active choice as in the union example when a walk-out
or strike is being discussed, but one choice is the active route.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
though both fish and cut bait, in the literal sense of the saying,
counted as pitching in. And if fish, in the shorter expression, stood
for "say yes, do the work," that left cut bait to mean "drop out,
decide not to do it."

It's not usually said of a yes-no situation, but of a this-or-that situation.

Yes, but one of the choices is the active choice. Either the "this"
or the "that" is the active one. They are not choices between equal
alternatives.

That is your misapprehension and would not be borne out by a study of the corpus.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 14:11:51 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter T. Daniels
alternatives instead of trying to do both.

Ordinary usage.

Not in any ordinary usage I've ever encountered. I can't imagine you
engaging in ordinary usage because that requires non-critical
interaction with others.

Sorry, but most people don't, like you, try to turn everything into a fight.

You were the one that said I was wrong. Not that I use the phrase
differently than you, but wrong. Yet, you offer no examples of why it
is wrong or even examples of using it your way.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 14:11:51 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter T. Daniels
alternatives instead of trying to do both.

Ordinary usage.

Not in any ordinary usage I've ever encountered. I can't imagine you
engaging in ordinary usage because that requires non-critical
interaction with others.

Sorry, but most people don't, like you, try to turn everything into a fight.

You were the one that said I was wrong. Not that I use the phrase
differently than you, but wrong. Yet, you offer no examples of why it
is wrong or even examples of using it your way.

And vice versa. Since you were the one who offered the deviant hypothesis,
it was your responsibility to demonstrate its validity (other than from
your own experience, of course).

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 20:30:08 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 14:11:51 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter T. Daniels
alternatives instead of trying to do both.

Ordinary usage.

Not in any ordinary usage I've ever encountered. I can't imagine you
engaging in ordinary usage because that requires non-critical
interaction with others.

Sorry, but most people don't, like you, try to turn everything into a fight.

You were the one that said I was wrong. Not that I use the phrase
differently than you, but wrong. Yet, you offer no examples of why it
is wrong or even examples of using it your way.

And vice versa. Since you were the one who offered the deviant hypothesis,
it was your responsibility to demonstrate its validity (other than from
your own experience, of course).

Do you actually read posts? (He asked aggressively) I linked to the
Wiki article for validity and quoted a Boston Post article. I also
provided a "for example" (not from my own experience, though)
regarding a union.

I'm sorry that I can't supply examples of usage from one of the
television shows you keep yammering on about. TV scripts seem to be
the only corpus you recognize.

"Deviant" from what? Who else but you, or where else, is there
indication that the term means only a choice between alternatives?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 20:30:08 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 14:11:51 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter T. Daniels
alternatives instead of trying to do both.

Ordinary usage.

Not in any ordinary usage I've ever encountered. I can't imagine you
engaging in ordinary usage because that requires non-critical
interaction with others.

Sorry, but most people don't, like you, try to turn everything into a fight.

You were the one that said I was wrong. Not that I use the phrase
differently than you, but wrong. Yet, you offer no examples of why it
is wrong or even examples of using it your way.

And vice versa. Since you were the one who offered the deviant hypothesis,
it was your responsibility to demonstrate its validity (other than from
your own experience, of course).

Do you actually read posts? (He asked aggressively) I linked to the
Wiki article for validity and quoted a Boston Post article.

Which, as I pointed out, offers no support for your position.

Post by Tony Cooper
I also
provided a "for example" (not from my own experience, though)
regarding a union.
I'm sorry that I can't supply examples of usage from one of the
television shows you keep yammering on about. TV scripts seem to be
the only corpus you recognize.

"TV scripts" are not linguistic data (even though they're where you learn
to pretend to use British idioms).

There are several accessible corpora of actual language use that you could search
for evidence to support your position.

Post by Tony Cooper
"Deviant" from what? Who else but you, or where else, is there
indication that the term means only a choice between alternatives?

In, for instance, the Wikipedia article you cited.

[John Varela]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 17:10:24 UTC, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 08:53:58 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by occam

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth

can't walk and chew gum at the same time

Nope, your version ('walk and chew gum') is suggestive of a permanent
state of incompetence. I heard it often to describe President Ford. The
'shit or haircut' could describe a one-off state of confusion and panic.

Be that as it may, I've never heard it.
Tony is wrong about "fish or cut bait." It simply means choose one of the
alternatives instead of trying to do both.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_or_cut_bait
It does involve choosing one of the alternatives, but one has to be
the active role.
You would not use it when both alternatives are the equally active
choice but simply different. Choosing between washing or drying the
dishes is not a "fish or cut bait" decision.
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/fish+or+cut+bait
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/fish-or-cut-bait
In the century before that, it was "fish or cut bait," or sometimes a
longer expression, as in an 1865 magazine story: "As the mackerel
Fish, cut bait, or go ashore." It's sort of a maritime version of
"Lead, follow, or get out of the way."
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it was still
used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in or out?" - even
though both fish and cut bait, in the literal sense of the saying,
counted as pitching in. And if fish, in the shorter expression, stood
for "say yes, do the work," that left cut bait to mean "drop out,
decide not to do it."

That Wiki article states the unspoken alternatives as "go ashore" or
"go overboard". As I've heard the expession used, it means "do
something useful or get out of the way".

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it was still
used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in or out?" - even
though both fish and cut bait, in the literal sense of the saying,
counted as pitching in. And if fish, in the shorter expression, stood
for "say yes, do the work," that left cut bait to mean "drop out,
decide not to do it."

I've never heard that version. In my experience it's not about choosing
between alternatives. It's just a way of saying "do something useful".
It's said to someone who is bludging, not doing his share of the work.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 14:35:10 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it was still
used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in or out?" - even
though both fish and cut bait, in the literal sense of the saying,
counted as pitching in. And if fish, in the shorter expression, stood
for "say yes, do the work," that left cut bait to mean "drop out,
decide not to do it."

I've never heard that version. In my experience it's not about choosing
between alternatives. It's just a way of saying "do something useful".
It's said to someone who is bludging, not doing his share of the work.

While I posted that, it is a quote from an article in the Boston Globe
and was so identified in my post.

[Theodore Heise]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 14:35:10 +1100,

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it
was still used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in or
out?" - even though both fish and cut bait, in the literal
sense of the saying, counted as pitching in. And if fish, in
the shorter expression, stood for "say yes, do the work," that
left cut bait to mean "drop out, decide not to do it."

I've never heard that version. In my experience it's not about
choosing between alternatives. It's just a way of saying "do
something useful". It's said to someone who is bludging, not
doing his share of the work.

This mostly covers the way I've heard it used: to indicate that a
person who has been putting off taking some action needs to make a
decision and take one course or another. The slight difference in
my experience is that it could also be said in cases where the
choice (or continued failing to make it) only affects the person
who should be making that choice. That is, it's not necessary for
the procrastinating chooser to be in the way of others or shirking
their share of the work--the harm from delay could acrue only to
that individual.

Note that my understanding of the phrase does not mean making a
choice between action and non-action (as I think Tony was saying),
but between two differing actions.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 14:35:10 +1100,

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it
was still used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in or
out?" - even though both fish and cut bait, in the literal
sense of the saying, counted as pitching in. And if fish, in
the shorter expression, stood for "say yes, do the work," that
left cut bait to mean "drop out, decide not to do it."

I've never heard that version. In my experience it's not about
choosing between alternatives. It's just a way of saying "do
something useful". It's said to someone who is bludging, not
doing his share of the work.

This mostly covers the way I've heard it used: to indicate that a
person who has been putting off taking some action needs to make a
decision and take one course or another. The slight difference in
my experience is that it could also be said in cases where the
choice (or continued failing to make it) only affects the person
who should be making that choice. That is, it's not necessary for
the procrastinating chooser to be in the way of others or shirking
their share of the work--the harm from delay could acrue only to
that individual.
Note that my understanding of the phrase does not mean making a
choice between action and non-action (as I think Tony was saying),
but between two differing actions.

I agree; and I'd like to point out that cutting bait is hard work.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:58:12 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 14:35:10 +1100,

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it
was still used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in or
out?" - even though both fish and cut bait, in the literal
sense of the saying, counted as pitching in. And if fish, in
the shorter expression, stood for "say yes, do the work," that
left cut bait to mean "drop out, decide not to do it."

I've never heard that version. In my experience it's not about
choosing between alternatives. It's just a way of saying "do
something useful". It's said to someone who is bludging, not
doing his share of the work.

This mostly covers the way I've heard it used: to indicate that a
person who has been putting off taking some action needs to make a
decision and take one course or another. The slight difference in
my experience is that it could also be said in cases where the
choice (or continued failing to make it) only affects the person
who should be making that choice. That is, it's not necessary for
the procrastinating chooser to be in the way of others or shirking
their share of the work--the harm from delay could acrue only to
that individual.
Note that my understanding of the phrase does not mean making a
choice between action and non-action (as I think Tony was saying),
but between two differing actions.

Let's say two people are in a discussion about choosing between two
differing actions. And, let's say making the choice of which
restaurant to go to for dinner as the example. One person wants to go
to a Denny's and the other person wants to go to a Red Robin.

How would "fish or cut bait" be used to describe this? It's two
differing actions.

My position is that the example where it applies would be that Dad has
offered to take the family out for pizza, and is waiting by the door
for the family members to join him. The family members are undecided
about going (action choice) or staying home (non-action choice).

Dad says "fish or cut bait" as he starts for the car.

(I would use "...out for fish and chips..." instead of pizza but it
might confuse the point even if a good pun.)

[Theodore Heise]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 11:03:43 -0500,

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:58:12 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 14:35:10 +1100,

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it
was still used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in
or out?" - even though both fish and cut bait, in the
literal sense of the saying, counted as pitching in. And if
fish, in the shorter expression, stood for "say yes, do the
work," that left cut bait to mean "drop out, decide not to
do it."

I've never heard that version. In my experience it's not
about choosing between alternatives. It's just a way of
saying "do something useful". It's said to someone who is
bludging, not doing his share of the work.

This mostly covers the way I've heard it used: to indicate that
a person who has been putting off taking some action needs to
make a decision and take one course or another. The slight
difference in my experience is that it could also be said in
cases where the choice (or continued failing to make it) only
affects the person who should be making that choice. That is,
it's not necessary for the procrastinating chooser to be in the
way of others or shirking their share of the work--the harm
from delay could acrue only to that individual.
Note that my understanding of the phrase does not mean making a
choice between action and non-action (as I think Tony was
saying), but between two differing actions.

Let's say two people are in a discussion about choosing between
two differing actions. And, let's say making the choice of
which restaurant to go to for dinner as the example. One
person wants to go to a Denny's and the other person wants to
go to a Red Robin.
How would "fish or cut bait" be used to describe this? It's
two differing actions.

I can't really think of how it would apply. A slight variation in
which it might would be a case where these two options had been
suggested by one person, and the other had been asked to choose
one but had stalled. But even that seems a bit of a stretch.

Maybe this comes down to how "action" is used. I think the
actions have to be different in nature.

Post by Tony Cooper
My position is that the example where it applies would be that
Dad has offered to take the family out for pizza, and is
waiting by the door for the family members to join him. The
family members are undecided about going (action choice) or
staying home (non-action choice).
Dad says "fish or cut bait" as he starts for the car.

This usage is possible in my understanding of the expression. I
also have to wonder if not going is really a non-action choice.
Not going is a course of action, is it not? I don't think it
implies that the individual necessarily sit stock still for the
duration.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 22:42:59 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise

Post by Theodore Heise
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 11:03:43 -0500,

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:58:12 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 14:35:10 +1100,

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it
was still used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in
or out?" - even though both fish and cut bait, in the
literal sense of the saying, counted as pitching in. And if
fish, in the shorter expression, stood for "say yes, do the
work," that left cut bait to mean "drop out, decide not to
do it."

I've never heard that version. In my experience it's not
about choosing between alternatives. It's just a way of
saying "do something useful". It's said to someone who is
bludging, not doing his share of the work.

This mostly covers the way I've heard it used: to indicate that
a person who has been putting off taking some action needs to
make a decision and take one course or another. The slight
difference in my experience is that it could also be said in
cases where the choice (or continued failing to make it) only
affects the person who should be making that choice. That is,
it's not necessary for the procrastinating chooser to be in the
way of others or shirking their share of the work--the harm
from delay could acrue only to that individual.
Note that my understanding of the phrase does not mean making a
choice between action and non-action (as I think Tony was
saying), but between two differing actions.

Let's say two people are in a discussion about choosing between
two differing actions. And, let's say making the choice of
which restaurant to go to for dinner as the example. One
person wants to go to a Denny's and the other person wants to
go to a Red Robin.
How would "fish or cut bait" be used to describe this? It's
two differing actions.

I can't really think of how it would apply. A slight variation in
which it might would be a case where these two options had been
suggested by one person, and the other had been asked to choose
one but had stalled. But even that seems a bit of a stretch.
Maybe this comes down to how "action" is used. I think the
actions have to be different in nature.

Post by Tony Cooper
My position is that the example where it applies would be that
Dad has offered to take the family out for pizza, and is
waiting by the door for the family members to join him. The
family members are undecided about going (action choice) or
staying home (non-action choice).
Dad says "fish or cut bait" as he starts for the car.

This usage is possible in my understanding of the expression. I
also have to wonder if not going is really a non-action choice.
Not going is a course of action, is it not? I don't think it
implies that the individual necessarily sit stock still for the
duration.

That's kinda of an over-technical view of "action" in my view.

The non-action, in my view, is deciding to stay because going with Dad
is the action. Dad's asking them to either come along or stay, but
they are undecided.

[b***@aol.com]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 22:42:59 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise

Post by Theodore Heise
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 11:03:43 -0500,

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:58:12 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 14:35:10 +1100,

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait," it
was still used as if it meant "Make a decision, are you in
or out?" - even though both fish and cut bait, in the
literal sense of the saying, counted as pitching in. And if
fish, in the shorter expression, stood for "say yes, do the
work," that left cut bait to mean "drop out, decide not to
do it."

I've never heard that version. In my experience it's not
about choosing between alternatives. It's just a way of
saying "do something useful". It's said to someone who is
bludging, not doing his share of the work.

This mostly covers the way I've heard it used: to indicate that
a person who has been putting off taking some action needs to
make a decision and take one course or another. The slight
difference in my experience is that it could also be said in
cases where the choice (or continued failing to make it) only
affects the person who should be making that choice. That is,
it's not necessary for the procrastinating chooser to be in the
way of others or shirking their share of the work--the harm
from delay could acrue only to that individual.
Note that my understanding of the phrase does not mean making a
choice between action and non-action (as I think Tony was
saying), but between two differing actions.

Let's say two people are in a discussion about choosing between
two differing actions. And, let's say making the choice of
which restaurant to go to for dinner as the example. One
person wants to go to a Denny's and the other person wants to
go to a Red Robin.
How would "fish or cut bait" be used to describe this? It's
two differing actions.

I can't really think of how it would apply. A slight variation in
which it might would be a case where these two options had been
suggested by one person, and the other had been asked to choose
one but had stalled. But even that seems a bit of a stretch.
Maybe this comes down to how "action" is used. I think the
actions have to be different in nature.

Post by Tony Cooper
My position is that the example where it applies would be that
Dad has offered to take the family out for pizza, and is
waiting by the door for the family members to join him. The
family members are undecided about going (action choice) or
staying home (non-action choice).
Dad says "fish or cut bait" as he starts for the car.

This usage is possible in my understanding of the expression. I
also have to wonder if not going is really a non-action choice.
Not going is a course of action, is it not? I don't think it
implies that the individual necessarily sit stock still for the
duration.

That's
kinda of

<OT:> Is this a typo for (or perhaps a jocular form of) "kind of"?

Post by Tony Cooper
an over-technical view of "action" in my view.
The non-action, in my view, is deciding to stay because going with Dad
is the action. Dad's asking them to either come along or stay, but
they are undecided.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Harvey]

-snip -

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by Tony Cooper
That's kinda of

<OT:> Is this a typo for (or perhaps a jocular form of) "kind of"?

That's more of an ObAUE than an OT, doncha think?

I suspect it's an editing thing rather than a typo: started life as"
kind of "; lightened the tone to" kinda", but forgot to delete the
"of".

As ever, could be wrong....

[b***@aol.com]

Post by Harvey
-snip -

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by Tony Cooper
That's kinda of

<OT:> Is this a typo for (or perhaps a jocular form of) "kind of"?

That's more of an ObAUE than an OT, doncha think?

Arguably so (I hesitated between the two).

Post by Harvey
I suspect it's an editing thing rather than a typo: started life as"
kind of "; lightened the tone to" kinda", but forgot to delete the
"of".

Either way, I thought the resulting spelling could be involuntary, but googled "it's kinda of" and got 145,000 hits -- which might suggest a phrase in its own right.

Post by Harvey
As ever, could be wrong....
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanE (30 years) & BrE (34 years), indiscriminately mixed

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Harvey
-snip -

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by Tony Cooper
That's kinda of

<OT:> Is this a typo for (or perhaps a jocular form of) "kind of"?

That's more of an ObAUE than an OT, doncha think?
I suspect it's an editing thing rather than a typo: started life as"
kind of "; lightened the tone to" kinda", but forgot to delete the
"of".
As ever, could be wrong....

Nope, not wrong. I often write "kinda" as a combination of "kind" and
"of" but did not omit the "of" here.

[b***@aol.com]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Harvey
-snip -

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by Tony Cooper
That's kinda of

<OT:> Is this a typo for (or perhaps a jocular form of) "kind of"?

That's more of an ObAUE than an OT, doncha think?
I suspect it's an editing thing rather than a typo: started life as"
kind of "; lightened the tone to" kinda", but forgot to delete the
"of".
As ever, could be wrong....

Nope, not wrong. I often write "kinda" as a combination of "kind" and
"of" but did not omit the "of" here.

Thanks, but could you have written "it's kinda an over-technical view"? I'm asking because the hiatus (kind*a* *a*n) sounds weird (at least to me), but phrases like "it's kinda impossible" (also with a hiatus) seem to be in common use.

Post by Tony Cooper
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Tony Cooper]

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Harvey
-snip -

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by Tony Cooper
That's kinda of

<OT:> Is this a typo for (or perhaps a jocular form of) "kind of"?

That's more of an ObAUE than an OT, doncha think?
I suspect it's an editing thing rather than a typo: started life as"
kind of "; lightened the tone to" kinda", but forgot to delete the
"of".
As ever, could be wrong....

Nope, not wrong. I often write "kinda" as a combination of "kind" and
"of" but did not omit the "of" here.

Thanks, but could you have written "it's kinda an over-technical view"? I'm asking because the hiatus (kind*a* *a*n) sounds weird (at least to me), but phrases like "it's kinda impossible" (also with a hiatus) seem to be in common use.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda...but didn't.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels
That's
kinda of

<OT:> Is this a typo for (or perhaps a jocular form of) "kind of"?

Jocular.

[Theodore Heise]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 18:21:01 -0500,

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 22:42:59 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise

Post by Theodore Heise
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 11:03:43 -0500,

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:58:12 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 14:35:10 +1100,

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
But when the phrase was shortened to "fish or cut bait,"
it was still used as if it meant "Make a decision, are
you in or out?" - even though both fish and cut bait, in
the literal sense of the saying, counted as pitching in.

I've never heard that version. In my experience it's not
about choosing between alternatives. It's just a way of
saying "do something useful". It's said to someone who is
bludging, not doing his share of the work.

Note that my understanding of the phrase does not mean
making a choice between action and non-action (as I think
Tony was saying), but between two differing actions.

Let's say two people are in a discussion about choosing
between two differing actions. And, let's say making the
choice of which restaurant to go to for dinner as the
example. One person wants to go to a Denny's and the other
person wants to go to a Red Robin.
How would "fish or cut bait" be used to describe this?
It's two differing actions.

I can't really think of how it would apply. A slight variation
in which it might would be a case where these two options had
been suggested by one person, and the other had been asked to
choose one but had stalled. But even that seems a bit of a
stretch.
Maybe this comes down to how "action" is used. I think the
actions have to be different in nature.

Post by Tony Cooper
My position is that the example where it applies would be
that Dad has offered to take the family out for pizza, and
is waiting by the door for the family members to join him.
The family members are undecided about going (action choice)
or staying home (non-action choice).
Dad says "fish or cut bait" as he starts for the car.

This usage is possible in my understanding of the expression.
I also have to wonder if not going is really a non-action
choice. Not going is a course of action, is it not? I don't
think it implies that the individual necessarily sit stock
still for the duration.

That's kinda of an over-technical view of "action" in my view.
The non-action, in my view, is deciding to stay because going
with Dad is the action. Dad's asking them to either come along
or stay, but they are undecided.

Yeah, I don't disagree with you, and I suspect we are not really
that far apart in our views.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by occam

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth

can't walk and chew gum at the same time

Nope, your version ('walk and chew gum') is suggestive of a permanent
state of incompetence. I heard it often to describe President Ford. The
'shit or haircut' could describe a one-off state of confusion and panic.

Agree. "Can't walk and chew gum at the same time" is a permanent
affliction. "Can't tell his..." is a statement about an ability to
perform a particular ability.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by occam

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth

can't walk and chew gum at the same time

Nope, your version ('walk and chew gum') is suggestive of a permanent
state of incompetence. I heard it often to describe President Ford. The
'shit or haircut' could describe a one-off state of confusion and panic.

In which category I quite like
"He didn't know if he was on this earth or fullers."

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Sam Plusnet
In which category I quite like
"He didn't know if he was on this earth or fullers."

When I read the Sherlock Holmes story that involved fuller's earth, I
tried for weeks to discover what that was. In the few dictionaries that
seemed to offer a definition, the definition was incomprehensible.

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 20:32:15 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Sam Plusnet
In which category I quite like
"He didn't know if he was on this earth or fullers."

When I read the Sherlock Holmes story that involved fuller's earth, I
tried for weeks to discover what that was. In the few dictionaries that
seemed to offer a definition, the definition was incomprehensible.

Cat litter - which is needed when your cat is not being swung in a
very limited arc - is a compound of granulated Fuller's earth. It is
a clay material that absorbs oil, grease, and animal waste.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 20:32:15 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Sam Plusnet
In which category I quite like
"He didn't know if he was on this earth or fullers."

When I read the Sherlock Holmes story that involved fuller's earth, I
tried for weeks to discover what that was. In the few dictionaries that
seemed to offer a definition, the definition was incomprehensible.

Cat litter - which is needed when your cat is not being swung in a
very limited arc - is a compound of granulated Fuller's earth. It is
a clay material that absorbs oil, grease, and animal waste.

My cat litter is used only when it's raining. Given the choice, our cats
would prefer to dig up the seedlings that have just been planted.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 20:32:15 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Sam Plusnet
In which category I quite like
"He didn't know if he was on this earth or fullers."

When I read the Sherlock Holmes story that involved fuller's earth, I
tried for weeks to discover what that was. In the few dictionaries that
seemed to offer a definition, the definition was incomprehensible.

Cat litter - which is needed when your cat is not being swung in a
very limited arc - is a compound of granulated Fuller's earth. It is
a clay material that absorbs oil, grease, and animal waste.

It's of no consequence at all, but I was interested to note that the
Welsh term for a fulling mill is "Pandy" - which appears in quite a few
place-names.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 20:32:15 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Sam Plusnet
In which category I quite like
"He didn't know if he was on this earth or fullers."

When I read the Sherlock Holmes story that involved fuller's earth, I
tried for weeks to discover what that was. In the few dictionaries that
seemed to offer a definition, the definition was incomprehensible.

Cat litter - which is needed when your cat is not being swung in a
very limited arc - is a compound of granulated Fuller's earth. It is
a clay material that absorbs oil, grease, and animal waste.

It's of no consequence at all, but I was interested to note that the
Welsh term for a fulling mill is "Pandy" - which appears in quite a few
place-names.

Watch with mother.

[musika]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Sam Plusnet
It's of no consequence at all, but I was interested to note that the
Welsh term for a fulling mill is "Pandy" - which appears in quite a few
place-names.

Watch with mother.
http://youtu.be/HLLI7V-xcQA

Not to be confused with Tonypandy.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by musika

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Sam Plusnet
It's of no consequence at all, but I was interested to note that the
Welsh term for a fulling mill is "Pandy" - which appears in quite a few
place-names.

Watch with mother.
http://youtu.be/HLLI7V-xcQA

Not to be confused with Tonypandy.

Or indeed (not far from here) just Pandy.

[CDB]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Sam Plusnet
In which category I quite like
"He didn't know if he was on this earth or fullers."

When I read the Sherlock Holmes story that involved fuller's earth, I
tried for weeks to discover what that was. In the few dictionaries that
seemed to offer a definition, the definition was incomprehensible.

It was one of the sample jars in a chemistry set I had when I was ten or
so. I don't remember whether I cleaned anything with it. The supplies
were chosen for safety, but I wanted dramatic effects.

[JoeDee]

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know
whether he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same.
(But I don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh
or cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the
panic.)
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have
a haircut"?

... didn't know whether to fish or cut bait.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by JoeDee

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know
whether he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same.
(But I don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh
or cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the
panic.)
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have
a haircut"?

... didn't know whether to fish or cut bait.

That one doesn't, to me, fit in with the "shit from Shinola" group.

"Fish or cut bait" is usually heard as "lead or follow" or "join or
watch". To "fish" is to get with the program and to "cut bait" is
remain on the sideline. There's nothing about intelligence involved.

[grabber]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by JoeDee

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know
whether he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same.
(But I don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh
or cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the
panic.)
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have
a haircut"?

... didn't know whether to fish or cut bait.

That one doesn't, to me, fit in with the "shit from Shinola" group.
"Fish or cut bait" is usually heard as "lead or follow" or "join or
watch". To "fish" is to get with the program and to "cut bait" is
remain on the sideline. There's nothing about intelligence involved.

"Fish or cut bait" is known to me, but as a strictly American
expression. "Shit or get off the pot" is the nearest familiar parallel
that springs to mind, along with "put up or shut up". But those mean
very slightly different things to me.

But this has given me an idea for an Only Connect clue, my gift to
anyone from the BBC who strays this way:

Haircut
Bust
Shinola
Get off the Pot

Only Connect is a BBC quiz programme in which the teams have to identify
the connections linking groups of items.

[John Varela]

Post by grabber

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by JoeDee

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know
whether he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same.
(But I don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh
or cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the
panic.)
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have
a haircut"?

... didn't know whether to fish or cut bait.

That one doesn't, to me, fit in with the "shit from Shinola" group.
"Fish or cut bait" is usually heard as "lead or follow" or "join or
watch". To "fish" is to get with the program and to "cut bait" is
remain on the sideline. There's nothing about intelligence involved.

"Fish or cut bait" is known to me, but as a strictly American
expression. "Shit or get off the pot" is the nearest familiar parallel

Both of those mean that you're blocking progress so either help or
get out of everyone else's way.

Post by grabber
that springs to mind, along with "put up or shut up". But those mean
very slightly different things to me.

"Put up or shut up" is a challenge. Either prove what you say or
stop saying it.

Post by grabber
But this has given me an idea for an Only Connect clue, my gift to
Haircut
Bust
Shinola
Get off the Pot
Only Connect is a BBC quiz programme in which the teams have to identify
the connections linking groups of items.

[John Varela]

On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 14:43:54 UTC, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by JoeDee

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know
whether he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same.
(But I don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh
or cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the
panic.)
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have
a haircut"?

... didn't know whether to fish or cut bait.

That one doesn't, to me, fit in with the "shit from Shinola" group.

Define the group. I take it to mean that the person spoken of is
ignorant, incompetent, or stupid; take your pick.

Post by Tony Cooper
"Fish or cut bait" is usually heard as "lead or follow" or "join or
watch". To "fish" is to get with the program and to "cut bait" is
remain on the sideline. There's nothing about intelligence involved.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by John Varela
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 14:43:54 UTC, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by JoeDee

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know
whether he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same.
(But I don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh
or cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the
panic.)
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have
a haircut"?

... didn't know whether to fish or cut bait.

That one doesn't, to me, fit in with the "shit from Shinola" group.

Define the group. I take it to mean that the person spoken of is
ignorant, incompetent, or stupid; take your pick.

I don't see the "fish or cut bait" to be about intelligence. Using an
example of someone urging another person to get involved with a
project and saying to that person "fish or cut bait" simply means "get
with the program or step aside". I don't see an inference that the
person saying that is being critical of the person's intelligence.

Post by John Varela

Post by Tony Cooper
"Fish or cut bait" is usually heard as "lead or follow" or "join or
watch". To "fish" is to get with the program and to "cut bait" is
remain on the sideline. There's nothing about intelligence involved.

[John Varela]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 01:09:31 UTC, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by John Varela
On Thu, 5 Jan 2017 14:43:54 UTC, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by JoeDee

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know
whether he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same.
(But I don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh
or cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the
panic.)
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have
a haircut"?

... didn't know whether to fish or cut bait.

That one doesn't, to me, fit in with the "shit from Shinola" group.

Define the group. I take it to mean that the person spoken of is
ignorant, incompetent, or stupid; take your pick.

I don't see the "fish or cut bait" to be about intelligence.

Neither do I. I was responding to "the 'shit from Shinola' group" in
the immediately preceding sentence. There seemed to be confusion
about what we're talking about in some participants' minds. I was
asking for terms to be defined.

Post by Tony Cooper
Using an
example of someone urging another person to get involved with a
project and saying to that person "fish or cut bait" simply means "get
with the program or step aside". I don't see an inference that the
person saying that is being critical of the person's intelligence.

Post by John Varela

Post by Tony Cooper
"Fish or cut bait" is usually heard as "lead or follow" or "join or
watch". To "fish" is to get with the program and to "cut bait" is
remain on the sideline. There's nothing about intelligence involved.

[John Varela]

Post by JoeDee

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know
whether he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same.
(But I don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh
or cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the
panic.)
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have
a haircut"?

... didn't know whether to fish or cut bait.

Can't find his ass/arse with both hands.

[Harvey]

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know. The default version in
BrE (though also present in other Englishes, I dare say) would be "he
doesn't know his arse from his elbow". But there are others.
I've heard "he doesn't know whether his arsehole's bored or

punched" and

Post by grabber
"he wouldn't know X from a hole in the ground" (X is sometimes "his
arse" but could also be the focus of the alleged incompetence)
(This is not the same type of usage as "I wouldn't know him from Adam"
where there is no suggestion that the lack of knowledge is a

shortcoming.)

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know whether
he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same. (But I
don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh or
cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the panic.)
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have a
haircut"?

For the latter, "Didn't know whether to shit or wind his watch" was
the one I grew up with.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by grabber

Post by grabber
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or

have a

Post by grabber
haircut"?

For the latter, "Didn't know whether to shit or wind his watch" was
the one I grew up with.

I don't think my grandsons are going to understand that one. I'd have
to explain what "wind a watch" means.

[Theodore Heise]

On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 11:56:35 -0500,

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Harvey

Post by grabber
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and
"shit or have a haircut"?

For the latter, "Didn't know whether to shit or wind his watch"
was the one I grew up with.

I don't think my grandsons are going to understand that one.
I'd have to explain what "wind a watch" means.

In the days when some wrist watches could be wound by motion of
the hand, "winding ones watch" was sometimes used as a reference
to masturbation.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Theodore Heise
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 11:56:35 -0500,

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Harvey

Post by grabber
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and
"shit or have a haircut"?

For the latter, "Didn't know whether to shit or wind his watch"
was the one I grew up with.

I don't think my grandsons are going to understand that one.
I'd have to explain what "wind a watch" means.

In the days when some wrist watches could be wound by motion of
the hand, "winding ones watch" was sometimes used as a reference
to masturbation.

"Bashing the bishop" was a more common phrase, and until now I didn't
understand why. It has suddenly occurred to me that a circumcised man
has some similarity to a chess bishop.

[grabber]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Theodore Heise
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 11:56:35 -0500,

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Harvey

Post by grabber
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and
"shit or have a haircut"?

For the latter, "Didn't know whether to shit or wind his watch"
was the one I grew up with.

I don't think my grandsons are going to understand that one.
I'd have to explain what "wind a watch" means.

In the days when some wrist watches could be wound by motion of
the hand, "winding ones watch" was sometimes used as a reference
to masturbation.

"Bashing the bishop" was a more common phrase, and until now I didn't
understand why. It has suddenly occurred to me that a circumcised man
has some similarity to a chess bishop.

Up in t' belfry, sexton stands
Bashin' 'is bishop wi' both 'is 'ands
Down in t' vestry, verger yells:
"Stop pullin' pudden, ring bloody bells!"

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Theodore Heise
In the days when some wrist watches could be wound by motion of
the hand, "winding ones watch" was sometimes used as a reference
to masturbation.

That was a fairly short interval -- between "stem-winders" (why are rousing
speeches called "stem-winders"?) and battery-powered watches. Long enough
for the expression to arise?

Post by Peter Moylan
"Bashing the bishop" was a more common phrase, and until now I didn't
understand why. It has suddenly occurred to me that a circumcised man
has some similarity to a chess bishop.

How many circumcised men were there back when that expression was current?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Moylan
"Bashing the bishop" was a more common phrase, and until now I didn't
understand why. It has suddenly occurred to me that a circumcised man
has some similarity to a chess bishop.

How many circumcised men were there back when that expression was current?

I have no idea, but I suspect that male circumcision has been around for
hundreds of years. Perhaps even thousands.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Moylan
"Bashing the bishop" was a more common phrase, and until now I didn't
understand why. It has suddenly occurred to me that a circumcised man
has some similarity to a chess bishop.

How many circumcised men were there back when that expression was current?

I have no idea, but I suspect that male circumcision has been around for
hundreds of years. Perhaps even thousands.

Not of Englishmen. Except, it was reported when Lady Di refused to have it
inflicted on her sons, among the uppermost classes.

[Theodore Heise]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 06:42:05 -0800 (PST),

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Theodore Heise
In the days when some wrist watches could be wound by motion
of the hand, "winding ones watch" was sometimes used as a
reference to masturbation.

That was a fairly short interval -- between "stem-winders"
(why are rousing speeches called "stem-winders"?) and
battery-powered watches.

Oh definitely.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Long enough for the expression to arise?

Well, I can't say if it ever arose, but I certainly heard it (and
may have even used it a time or two). Working in a restaurant
kitchen, the young men can get pretty boisterous--and sometimes
crude.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:51:11 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise

Post by Theodore Heise
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 11:56:35 -0500,

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Harvey

Post by grabber
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and
"shit or have a haircut"?

For the latter, "Didn't know whether to shit or wind his watch"
was the one I grew up with.

I don't think my grandsons are going to understand that one.
I'd have to explain what "wind a watch" means.

In the days when some wrist watches could be wound by motion of
the hand, "winding ones watch" was sometimes used as a reference
to masturbation.

My Rolex is self-winding by motion. No battery. It is running as I
write this, but no Bishop has been bashed as Peter Moylan might say.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 6 Jan 2017 12:51:11 +0000 (UTC), Theodore Heise

Post by Theodore Heise
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 11:56:35 -0500,

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Harvey

Post by grabber
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and
"shit or have a haircut"?

For the latter, "Didn't know whether to shit or wind his watch"
was the one I grew up with.

I don't think my grandsons are going to understand that one.
I'd have to explain what "wind a watch" means.

In the days when some wrist watches could be wound by motion of
the hand, "winding ones watch" was sometimes used as a reference
to masturbation.

My Rolex is self-winding by motion. No battery. It is running as I
write this, but no Bishop has been bashed as Peter Moylan might say.

A Presbyterian timepiece?

[John Varela]

Post by grabber

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came

up

Post by grabber
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something

we'd

Post by grabber
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know. The default version

in

Post by grabber
BrE (though also present in other Englishes, I dare say) would be

"he

Post by grabber
doesn't know his arse from his elbow". But there are others.
I've heard "he doesn't know whether his arsehole's bored or

punched" and

Post by grabber
"he wouldn't know X from a hole in the ground" (X is sometimes "his
arse" but could also be the focus of the alleged incompetence)
(This is not the same type of usage as "I wouldn't know him from

Adam"

Post by grabber
where there is no suggestion that the lack of knowledge is a

shortcoming.)

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether

to

Post by grabber
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their

depth

Post by grabber
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut"

in

Post by grabber
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know

whether

Post by grabber
he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same. (But

I

Post by grabber
don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh or
cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the

panic.)

Post by grabber
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or

have a

Post by grabber
haircut"?

For the latter, "Didn't know whether to shit or wind his watch" was
the one I grew up with.

That one means that the person is nonplussed but I don't think it
carries strong implication of incompetence or ignorance, whereas
"shit from Shinola" does.

[HVS]

Post by John Varela

Post by grabber

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came

up

Post by grabber
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something

we'd

Post by grabber
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know. The default version

in

Post by grabber
BrE (though also present in other Englishes, I dare say) would be

"he

Post by grabber
doesn't know his arse from his elbow". But there are others.
I've heard "he doesn't know whether his arsehole's bored or

punched" and

Post by grabber
"he wouldn't know X from a hole in the ground" (X is sometimes "his
arse" but could also be the focus of the alleged incompetence)
(This is not the same type of usage as "I wouldn't know him from

Adam"

Post by grabber
where there is no suggestion that the lack of knowledge is a

shortcoming.)

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether

to

Post by grabber
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their

depth

Post by grabber
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut"

in

Post by grabber
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know

whether

Post by grabber
he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same. (But

I

Post by grabber
don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh or
cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the

panic.)

Post by grabber
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or

have a

Post by grabber
haircut"?

For the latter, "Didn't know whether to shit or wind his watch" was
the one I grew up with.

That one means that the person is nonplussed but I don't think it
carries strong implication of incompetence or ignorance, whereas
"shit from Shinola" does.

Indeed. I may not have been clear enough, but that's what I meant by "the
latter" -- it's in the group of phrases with "shit or have a haircut",
rather than with the "shit from Shinola" group.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by grabber

Post by grabber
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether

to

Post by grabber
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their

depth

Post by grabber
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut"

in

Post by grabber
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know

whether

Post by grabber
he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same. (But

I

Post by grabber
don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh or
cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the

panic.)

Post by grabber
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or
have a haircut"?

For the latter, "Didn't know whether to shit or wind his watch" was the
one I grew up with.

The one I've heard is "whether to shit or go blind", but I like
"haircut" better.

[b***@aol.com]

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know. The default version in
BrE (though also present in other Englishes, I dare say) would be "he
doesn't know his arse from his elbow". But there are others.
I've heard "he doesn't know whether his arsehole's bored or punched" and
"he wouldn't know X from a hole in the ground" (X is sometimes "his
arse" but could also be the focus of the alleged incompetence)
(This is not the same type of usage as "I wouldn't know him from Adam"
where there is no suggestion that the lack of knowledge is a shortcoming.)
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder
"he didn't know whether he was coming or going",

Like in?:

"There was a young man from Kent
Whose tool was so long that it bent.
To save himself trouble
He put it in double
And instead of coming, he went."

Post by grabber
which I think means roughly the same. (But I
don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh or
cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the panic.)
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have a
haircut"?

[m***@att.net]

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know. The default version in
BrE (though also present in other Englishes, I dare say) would be "he
doesn't know his arse from his elbow". But there are others.
I've heard "he doesn't know whether his arsehole's bored or punched" and
"he wouldn't know X from a hole in the ground" (X is sometimes "his
arse" but could also be the focus of the alleged incompetence)
(This is not the same type of usage as "I wouldn't know him from Adam"
where there is no suggestion that the lack of knowledge is a shortcoming.)
A different but related type of phrase is "he didn't know whether to
shit or have a haircut", used of someone floundering out of their depth
with a situation. I've seen a couple of alternatives to "haircut" in
that one, and of course there is the much milder "he didn't know whether
he was coming or going", which I think means roughly the same. (But I
don't think this is the same as "he didn't know whether to laugh or
cry", which could be used of an observer not participating in the panic.)
What other variants are there on "shit from shinola" and "shit or have a
haircut"?

Semi-pertinent from a decade or so ago... (Burro, burrow: ass from hole in
ground)

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/burro$20burrow$20hole$20in$20the$20ground%7Csort:relevance/rec.arts.comics.strips/xXjFJigSwOk/KysEht80oQwJ

[Dr. HotSalt]

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know.

Are Brits familiar with apple butter?

One of my uncles favored "Wouldn't know shit from apple butter if you gave him a jar of each and a box of crackers".

He was of the WWII generation but I never found out where he fought, or if he picked up the phrase as a child in the U. S. or "over there".


Dr. HotSalt

[charles]

Post by Dr. HotSalt

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know.

Are Brits familiar with apple butter?

never heard of it. We have peanut butter all the year round and brandy
butter at Christmas, - but that's it.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by charles

Post by Dr. HotSalt

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know.

Are Brits familiar with apple butter?

never heard of it. We have peanut butter all the year round and brandy
butter at Christmas, - but that's it.

Mmm ... apple butter ... it was smoother, darker, and more viscous than
applsauce, so it could be spread on strong bread, and spiced like mulled cider.
(That's AmE cider, not that alcoholic stuff of yours.)

[bill van]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by charles

Post by Dr. HotSalt

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know.

Are Brits familiar with apple butter?

never heard of it. We have peanut butter all the year round and brandy
butter at Christmas, - but that's it.

Mmm ... apple butter ... it was smoother, darker, and more viscous than
applsauce, so it could be spread on strong bread, and spiced like mulled cider.
(That's AmE cider, not that alcoholic stuff of yours.)

The Dutch have appelstroop (apple syrup), which in my childhood was an
occasional treat spread on bread or egg rusk. Also available in Canada,
as apple butter.

[Dr. HotSalt]

Post by bill van

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by charles

Post by Dr. HotSalt

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came
up in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something
we'd say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know.

Are Brits familiar with apple butter?

never heard of it. We have peanut butter all the year round and brandy
butter at Christmas, - but that's it.

Mmm ... apple butter ... it was smoother, darker, and more viscous than
applsauce, so it could be spread on strong bread, and spiced like mulled cider.
(That's AmE cider, not that alcoholic stuff of yours.)

The Dutch have appelstroop (apple syrup), which in my childhood was an
occasional treat spread on bread or egg rusk. Also available in Canada,
as apple butter.

Wikip says similar products are favorite methods of preserving apples all over Europe. Presumably apple butter is popular in the New World because it came across with all of the immigrants from Europe.

Maybe it's too "Continental" for most Brits' tastes?


Dr. HotSalt

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 9 Jan 2017 13:15:24 -0800 (PST), "Dr. HotSalt"

Post by Dr. HotSalt

Post by bill van

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by charles

Post by Dr. HotSalt

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came
up in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something
we'd say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know.

Are Brits familiar with apple butter?

never heard of it. We have peanut butter all the year round and brandy
butter at Christmas, - but that's it.

Mmm ... apple butter ... it was smoother, darker, and more viscous than
applsauce, so it could be spread on strong bread, and spiced like mulled cider.
(That's AmE cider, not that alcoholic stuff of yours.)

The Dutch have appelstroop (apple syrup), which in my childhood was an
occasional treat spread on bread or egg rusk. Also available in Canada,
as apple butter.

Wikip says similar products are favorite methods of preserving apples all over Europe. Presumably apple butter is popular in the New World because it came across with all of the immigrants from Europe.
Maybe it's too "Continental" for most Brits' tastes?

Apple butter is my second-favorite spread, right behind Orange
Marmalade. My preferred brand is Mussleman's.

Recently my wife picked up a jar of Dickinson's. It is much lighter
in color, and is - frankly - bland.

All apple butter is not equal.

[John Varela]

Post by charles

Post by Dr. HotSalt

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know.

Are Brits familiar with apple butter?

never heard of it. We have peanut butter all the year round and brandy
butter at Christmas, - but that's it.

There is also, believe it or not, cookie butter.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Fri, 06 Jan 2017 20:45:25 +0000 (GMT), charles

Post by charles

Post by Dr. HotSalt

Post by grabber
The familiar US expression "he doesn't know shit from shinola" came up
in another thread. Familiar to Brits like me, but not something we'd
say, because "shinola" is not a brand we know.

Are Brits familiar with apple butter?

never heard of it. We have peanut butter all the year round and brandy
butter at Christmas, - but that's it.

Rum is sometimes used instead of brandy in the Christmas sauce.