Discussion:
OT Translation to Latin
(too old to reply)
Mike Page
2010-11-18 00:17:06 UTC
Permalink
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
--
MP
Arcadian Rises
2010-11-18 03:43:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
--
MP
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and await
corrections:

Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
Arcadian Rises
2010-11-18 03:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
--
MP
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and await
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.

Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Jerry Friedman
2010-11-18 06:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
--
MP
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and await
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?

It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.

I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there are
people here who know the answer.

--
Jerry Friedman
Arcadian Rises
2010-11-18 14:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
--
MP
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and await
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?
It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.
I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there are
people here who know the answer.
--
Jerry Friedman- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
You mean there is such a Latin adage? I've never heard of it, and I
sudied Roman Law in the last millenium, but not with too much
enthusiasm. Anyway, if there is such a saying, it's probably "remitto"
i.s.o. "remitti": Facilius est remitto quam permitti.
Jerry Friedman
2010-11-18 22:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
--
MP
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and await
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?
It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.
I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there are
people here who know the answer.
...
Post by Arcadian Rises
You mean there is such a Latin adage?
Sorry to mislead you. "Know the answer" was kind of a late-night
figure of speech for "know how to do this." I'm sure there's more
than one answer.
Post by Arcadian Rises
I've never heard of it, and I
sudied Roman Law in the last millenium, but not with too much
enthusiasm. Anyway, if there is such a saying, it's probably "remitto"
i.s.o. "remitti": Facilius est remitto quam permitti
...

They're not the same part of the verb? This language is too hard.

--
Jerry Friedman
CDB
2010-11-19 15:15:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?
It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.
I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there
are people here who know the answer.
You mean there is such a Latin adage?
Sorry to mislead you. "Know the answer" was kind of a late-night
figure of speech for "know how to do this." I'm sure there's more
than one answer.
Post by Arcadian Rises
I've never heard of it, and I
sudied Roman Law in the last millenium, but not with too much
enthusiasm. Anyway, if there is such a saying, it's probably
"remitto" i.s.o. "remitti": Facilius est remitto quam permitti
They're not the same part of the verb? This language is too hard.
I think the "o" may be a typo for "i".
James Hogg
2010-11-19 16:00:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to
obtain forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step
and await corrections: Melius est ignoscere
quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better. Facilius est
ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti? It would be more gnomic
without the "est", if that's allowed. I don't know why I look
at dictionaries and grammars when there are people here who
know the answer.
You mean there is such a Latin adage?
Sorry to mislead you. "Know the answer" was kind of a late-night
figure of speech for "know how to do this." I'm sure there's more
than one answer.
Post by Arcadian Rises
I've never heard of it, and I sudied Roman Law in the last
millenium, but not with too much enthusiasm. Anyway, if there is
such a saying, it's probably "remitto" i.s.o. "remitti": Facilius
est remitto quam permitti
They're not the same part of the verb? This language is too hard.
I think the "o" may be a typo for "i".
Anyway, I think it's only sins that can be remitted, not the people who
committed them, so the passive form "remitti" wouldn't work. Likewise, I
suspect that only actions can be permitted, "permitti", in Latin, not
people.
--
James
Jerry Friedman
2010-11-19 19:18:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Hogg
Post by CDB
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to
obtain forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step
and await corrections: Melius est ignoscere
quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better. Facilius est
ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti? It would be more gnomic
without the "est", if that's allowed. I don't know why I look
at dictionaries and grammars when there are people here who
know the answer.
You mean there is such a Latin adage?
Sorry to mislead you.  "Know the answer" was kind of a late-night
figure of speech for "know how to do this."  I'm sure there's more
than one answer.
Post by Arcadian Rises
I've never heard of it, and I sudied Roman Law in the last
millenium, but not with too much enthusiasm. Anyway, if there is
such a saying, it's probably "remitto" i.s.o. "remitti": Facilius
est remitto quam permitti
They're not the same part of the verb?  This language is too hard.
I think the "o" may be a typo for "i".
Anyway, I think it's only sins that can be remitted, not the people who
committed them, so the passive form "remitti" wouldn't work. Likewise, I
suspect that only actions can be permitted, "permitti", in Latin, not
people.
If so, might my attempt not mean that certain actions are more easily
forgiven than permitted?

--
Jerry Friedman
James Hogg
2010-11-19 19:39:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by James Hogg
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to
obtain forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step
and await corrections: Melius est ignoscere
quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better. Facilius est
ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti? It would be more gnomic
without the "est", if that's allowed. I don't know why I look
at dictionaries and grammars when there are people here who
know the answer.
You mean there is such a Latin adage?
Sorry to mislead you. "Know the answer" was kind of a late-night
figure of speech for "know how to do this." I'm sure there's more
than one answer.
Post by Arcadian Rises
I've never heard of it, and I sudied Roman Law in the last
millenium, but not with too much enthusiasm. Anyway, if there is
such a saying, it's probably "remitto" i.s.o. "remitti": Facilius
est remitto quam permitti
They're not the same part of the verb? This language is too hard.
I think the "o" may be a typo for "i".
Anyway, I think it's only sins that can be remitted, not the people who
committed them, so the passive form "remitti" wouldn't work. Likewise, I
suspect that only actions can be permitted, "permitti", in Latin, not
people.
If so, might my attempt not mean that certain actions are more easily
forgiven than permitted?
I think that would be the case. My Latin is very rusty, though.
--
James
franzi
2010-11-19 23:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Hogg
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by James Hogg
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to
obtain forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step
and await corrections: Melius est ignoscere
quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better. Facilius est
ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti? It would be more gnomic
without the "est", if that's allowed. I don't know why I look
at dictionaries and grammars when there are people here who
know the answer.
You mean there is such a Latin adage?
Sorry to mislead you. "Know the answer" was kind of a late-night
figure of speech for "know how to do this." I'm sure there's more
than one answer.
Post by Arcadian Rises
I've never heard of it, and I sudied Roman Law in the last
millenium, but not with too much enthusiasm. Anyway, if there is
such a saying, it's probably "remitto" i.s.o. "remitti": Facilius
est remitto quam permitti
They're not the same part of the verb? This language is too hard.
I think the "o" may be a typo for "i".
Anyway, I think it's only sins that can be remitted, not the people who
committed them, so the passive form "remitti" wouldn't work. Likewise, I
suspect that only actions can be permitted, "permitti", in Latin, not
people.
Permittere takes the thing as a direct object, and the person as
indirect (dative) object. That makes sense: to permit (give permission)
to someone.

A consequence of that is that the subject of the passive verb must be
the thing permitted. A person cannot be permitted if it is not possible
to permit a person.

You can translate "I am permitted" as "licet mihi" - it is allowed for
me.

I do know that 'potestas' works as 'permission'; that to ask permission
is 'veniam petere'; and that both 'veniam dare' and 'potestatem facere'
can mean to give permission.
Post by James Hogg
Post by Jerry Friedman
If so, might my attempt not mean that certain actions are more easily
forgiven than permitted?
I think that would be the case. My Latin is very rusty, though.
I find it hard to grasp. "To be remitted/relaxed/released is easier (in
what sense easier?) than (for a thing) to be allowed". I think the idea
would be structured differently down by the Aventine. Venia facile,
potestas aegre impetratur.
--
franzi
abzorba
2010-11-19 08:55:07 UTC
Permalink
Arcadian Rises told us:

I've never heard of it, and I
sudied Roman Law in the last millenium...

Well, I soap-pose you CLEANED up at graduation....

Myles (Was it worth it?) Paulsen
CDB
2010-11-18 16:58:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?
It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.
It is. I may have mentioned this one before, but I quite liked it.
The motto of the Engineering Society at Queen's University (Kingston
ON) is "What the hell, as long as there's free beer". In the late
sixties, at their request, a Classics prof named Mark Edwards made it
respectable as "Quis dolor cui dolium?", which literally means "What
pain can he feel, who holds the wine-jar?" if you supply the missing
words: Quis dolor [sit ei,] cui [est] dolium?"
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there are
people here who know the answer.
It's all blunder and bluff. I was going to suggest "veniam quam
licentiam facilius precari" (easier to beg forgiveness than
permission) but, on checking, I find my dictionary has "venia" for
both meanings.
John Dunlop
2010-11-18 17:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
It is. I may have mentioned this one before, but I quite liked it.
The motto of the Engineering Society at Queen's University (Kingston
ON) is "What the hell, as long as there's free beer". In the late
sixties, at their request, a Classics prof named Mark Edwards made it
respectable as "Quis dolor cui dolium?", which literally means "What
pain can he feel, who holds the wine-jar?" if you supply the missing
words: Quis dolor [sit ei,] cui [est] dolium?"
I bet they have great symposia.
--
John
franzi
2010-11-18 18:42:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?
I like the reduplication. Facillime est waltermitti.
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.
It is. I may have mentioned this one before, but I quite liked it.
The motto of the Engineering Society at Queen's University (Kingston
ON) is "What the hell, as long as there's free beer". In the late
sixties, at their request, a Classics prof named Mark Edwards made it
respectable as "Quis dolor cui dolium?", which literally means "What
pain can he feel, who holds the wine-jar?" if you supply the missing
words: Quis dolor [sit ei,] cui [est] dolium?"
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there are
people here who know the answer.
It's all blunder and bluff. I was going to suggest "veniam quam
licentiam facilius precari" (easier to beg forgiveness than
permission) but, on checking, I find my dictionary has "venia" for
both meanings.
Maybe potestas is better. And impetrare, to obtain by entreaty.

That would give "veniam quam potestatem facilius impetrare".

Actually, not sure about facilius. More easily? Or facilior? By English
analysis, "to obtain x is easier than [to obtain] y" wants the
adjective, not the adverb.
--
franzi
franzi
2010-11-18 19:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by franzi
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?
I like the reduplication. Facillime est waltermitti.
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.
It is. I may have mentioned this one before, but I quite liked it.
The motto of the Engineering Society at Queen's University (Kingston
ON) is "What the hell, as long as there's free beer". In the late
sixties, at their request, a Classics prof named Mark Edwards made it
respectable as "Quis dolor cui dolium?", which literally means "What
pain can he feel, who holds the wine-jar?" if you supply the missing
words: Quis dolor [sit ei,] cui [est] dolium?"
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there are
people here who know the answer.
It's all blunder and bluff. I was going to suggest "veniam quam
licentiam facilius precari" (easier to beg forgiveness than
permission) but, on checking, I find my dictionary has "venia" for
both meanings.
Maybe potestas is better. And impetrare, to obtain by entreaty.
That would give "veniam quam potestatem facilius impetrare".
Actually, not sure about facilius. More easily? Or facilior? By English
analysis, "to obtain x is easier than [to obtain] y" wants the
adjective, not the adverb.
Shouldn't have written that last para - forgot that facilius is the
neuter of the adjective, and neuter is needed.
--
franzi
Jerry Friedman
2010-11-18 22:34:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by franzi
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?
I like the reduplication. Facillime est waltermitti.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.
It is.  I may have mentioned this one before, but I quite liked it.
The motto of the Engineering Society at Queen's University (Kingston
ON) is "What the hell, as long as there's free beer".  In the late
sixties, at their request, a Classics prof named Mark Edwards made it
respectable as "Quis dolor cui dolium?", which literally means "What
pain can he feel, who holds the wine-jar?" if you supply the missing
words: Quis dolor [sit ei,] cui [est] dolium?"
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there are
people here who know the answer.
It's all blunder and bluff.  I was going to suggest "veniam quam
licentiam facilius precari" (easier to beg forgiveness than
permission) but, on checking, I find my dictionary has "venia" for
both meanings.
Maybe potestas is better. And impetrare, to obtain by entreaty.
That would give "veniam quam potestatem facilius impetrare".
...

How about a passive indicative? "Venia quam potestas facilius
impetratur" (forgiveness is more easily obtained by entreaty than
permission is)? Or if the reduplication is silly enough instead of
too silly, "Remissio quam permissio facilius impetratur"? (And if the
words mean what I think they mean, and and and....)

--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Page
2010-11-19 06:47:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by franzi
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?
I like the reduplication. Facillime est waltermitti.
Post by CDB
Post by Jerry Friedman
It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.
It is. I may have mentioned this one before, but I quite liked it.
The motto of the Engineering Society at Queen's University (Kingston
ON) is "What the hell, as long as there's free beer". In the late
sixties, at their request, a Classics prof named Mark Edwards made it
respectable as "Quis dolor cui dolium?", which literally means "What
pain can he feel, who holds the wine-jar?" if you supply the missing
words: Quis dolor [sit ei,] cui [est] dolium?"
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there are
people here who know the answer.
It's all blunder and bluff. I was going to suggest "veniam quam
licentiam facilius precari" (easier to beg forgiveness than
permission) but, on checking, I find my dictionary has "venia" for
both meanings.
Maybe potestas is better. And impetrare, to obtain by entreaty.
That would give "veniam quam potestatem facilius impetrare".
...
How about a passive indicative? "Venia quam potestas facilius
impetratur" (forgiveness is more easily obtained by entreaty than
permission is)? Or if the reduplication is silly enough instead of
too silly, "Remissio quam permissio facilius impetratur"? (And if the
words mean what I think they mean, and and and....)
Very many thanks for all the suggestions. I like the Jerry's last one as
it has a splendid rhythm. The request arises from Lucy Kellaway's
article on 10th Feb about the way mottoes are better in Latin

http://search.ft.com/search?queryText=rutrum&x=0&y=0&aje=true&dse=&dsz=

and my periodic need to tease a colleague.
--
MP
Jerry Friedman
2010-11-19 20:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Page
Post by franzi
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?
I like the reduplication. Facillime est waltermitti.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.
It is.  I may have mentioned this one before, but I quite liked it.
The motto of the Engineering Society at Queen's University (Kingston
ON) is "What the hell, as long as there's free beer".  In the late
sixties, at their request, a Classics prof named Mark Edwards made it
respectable as "Quis dolor cui dolium?", which literally means "What
pain can he feel, who holds the wine-jar?" if you supply the missing
words: Quis dolor [sit ei,] cui [est] dolium?"
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there are
people here who know the answer.
It's all blunder and bluff.  I was going to suggest "veniam quam
licentiam facilius precari" (easier to beg forgiveness than
permission) but, on checking, I find my dictionary has "venia" for
both meanings.
Maybe potestas is better. And impetrare, to obtain by entreaty.
That would give "veniam quam potestatem facilius impetrare".
...
How about a passive indicative?  "Venia quam potestas facilius
impetratur" (forgiveness is more easily obtained by entreaty than
permission is)?  Or if the reduplication is silly enough instead of
too silly, "Remissio quam permissio facilius impetratur"?  (And if the
words mean what I think they mean, and and and....)
Very many thanks for all the suggestions. I like the Jerry's last one as
it has a splendid rhythm. The request arises from Lucy Kellaway's
article on 10th Feb about the way mottoes are better in Latin
http://search.ft.com/search?queryText=rutrum&x=0&y=0&aje=true&dse=&dsz=
and my periodic need to tease a colleague.
Glad to help--I don't understand my strange enjoyment of this kind of
thing--and you can always ask in alt.language.latin if you don't want
to be teased back about the quality of your motto.

--
Jerry Friedman
franzi
2010-11-19 22:55:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by franzi
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', into Latin for me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?
I like the reduplication. Facillime est waltermitti.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.
It is.  I may have mentioned this one before, but I quite liked it.
The motto of the Engineering Society at Queen's University (Kingston
ON) is "What the hell, as long as there's free beer".  In the late
sixties, at their request, a Classics prof named Mark Edwards made it
respectable as "Quis dolor cui dolium?", which literally means "What
pain can he feel, who holds the wine-jar?" if you supply the missing
words: Quis dolor [sit ei,] cui [est] dolium?"
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there are
people here who know the answer.
It's all blunder and bluff.  I was going to suggest "veniam quam
licentiam facilius precari" (easier to beg forgiveness than
permission) but, on checking, I find my dictionary has "venia" for
both meanings.
Maybe potestas is better. And impetrare, to obtain by entreaty.
That would give "veniam quam potestatem facilius impetrare".
...
How about a passive indicative? "Venia quam potestas facilius
impetratur" (forgiveness is more easily obtained by entreaty than
permission is)? Or if the reduplication is silly enough instead of
too silly, "Remissio quam permissio facilius impetratur"? (And if the
words mean what I think they mean, and and and....)
I'm worried by the indicative. It's a supposition or forecast that's
being described, not an actual news story.
--
franzi
Jerry Friedman
2010-11-20 16:45:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by franzi
Post by franzi
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', intoLatinfor me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?
I like the reduplication. Facillime est waltermitti.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.
It is.  I may have mentioned this one before, but I quite liked it.
The motto of the Engineering Society at Queen's University (Kingston
ON) is "What the hell, as long as there's free beer".  In the late
sixties, at their request, a Classics prof named Mark Edwards made it
respectable as "Quis dolor cui dolium?", which literally means "What
pain can he feel, who holds the wine-jar?" if you supply the missing
words: Quis dolor [sit ei,] cui [est] dolium?"
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there are
people here who know the answer.
It's all blunder and bluff.  I was going to suggest "veniam quam
licentiam facilius precari" (easier to beg forgiveness than
permission) but, on checking, I find my dictionary has "venia" for
both meanings.
Maybe potestas is better. And impetrare, to obtain by entreaty.
That would give "veniam quam potestatem facilius impetrare".
...
How about a passive indicative?  "Venia quam potestas facilius
impetratur" (forgiveness is more easily obtained by entreaty than
permission is)?  Or if the reduplication is silly enough instead of
too silly, "Remissio quam permissio facilius impetratur"?  (And if the
words mean what I think they mean, and and and....)
I'm worried by the indicative. It's a supposition or forecast that's
being described, not an actual news story.
So the present indicative isn't used in Latin for something that's
always true? That is remarkably uncooperative of the ancient Romans.

--
Jerry Friedman
franzi
2010-11-20 20:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by franzi
Post by franzi
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Arcadian Rises
Post by Mike Page
Would anyone be so kind as to translate, 'It easier to obtain
forgiveness than permission', intoLatinfor me?
This should be a collective work. I will do the first step and
Melius est ignoscere quam...licentiam?
oops, first correction: "melius" is "better.
Facilius est ignoscere quam...
Facilius est remitti quam permitti?
I like the reduplication. Facillime est waltermitti.
Post by Jerry Friedman
It would be more gnomic without the "est", if that's allowed.
It is.  I may have mentioned this one before, but I quite liked it.
The motto of the Engineering Society at Queen's University (Kingston
ON) is "What the hell, as long as there's free beer".  In the late
sixties, at their request, a Classics prof named Mark Edwards made it
respectable as "Quis dolor cui dolium?", which literally means "What
pain can he feel, who holds the wine-jar?" if you supply the missing
words: Quis dolor [sit ei,] cui [est] dolium?"
Post by Jerry Friedman
I don't know why I look at dictionaries and grammars when there are
people here who know the answer.
It's all blunder and bluff.  I was going to suggest "veniam quam
licentiam facilius precari" (easier to beg forgiveness than
permission) but, on checking, I find my dictionary has "venia" for
both meanings.
Maybe potestas is better. And impetrare, to obtain by entreaty.
That would give "veniam quam potestatem facilius impetrare".
...
How about a passive indicative?  "Venia quam potestas facilius
impetratur" (forgiveness is more easily obtained by entreaty than
permission is)?  Or if the reduplication is silly enough instead of
too silly, "Remissio quam permissio facilius impetratur"?  (And if the
words mean what I think they mean, and and and....)
I'm worried by the indicative. It's a supposition or forecast that's
being described, not an actual news story.
So the present indicative isn't used in Latin for something that's
always true? That is remarkably uncooperative of the ancient Romans.
Remind me - did you buy the five-minute argument or the full half hour?
My move: in either case, I start with the assertion that it isn't always
true.

Of course, if you are contemplating a particular transgression, and are
considering an application for prior clearance for it, then the fact
that post facto pardon will be more easily got than a green light in
advance is perfectly entitled to the indicative.
--
franzi
Jerry Friedman
2010-11-20 21:10:55 UTC
Permalink
...
Post by franzi
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by franzi
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by franzi
Post by CDB
It's all blunder and bluff.
...
Post by franzi
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by franzi
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by franzi
Maybe potestas is better. And impetrare, to obtain by entreaty.
That would give "veniam quam potestatem facilius impetrare".
...
How about a passive indicative? "Venia quam potestas facilius
impetratur" (forgiveness is more easily obtained by entreaty than
permission is)? Or if the reduplication is silly enough instead of
too silly, "Remissio quam permissio facilius impetratur"? (And if the
words mean what I think they mean, and and and....)
I'm worried by the indicative. It's a supposition or forecast that's
being described, not an actual news story.
So the present indicative isn't used in Latin for something that's
always true? That is remarkably uncooperative of the ancient Romans.
Remind me - did you buy the five-minute argument or the full half hour?
I'm not arguing. This isn't an argument. Do you see me arguing? You
do not.
Post by franzi
My move: in either case, I start with the assertion that it isn't always
true.
True. But I think the tense, mood, voice, aspect, whatever, for
statements that are always true is the one Mike wants.
Post by franzi
Of course, if you are contemplating a particular transgression, and are
considering an application for prior clearance for it, then the fact
that post facto pardon will be more easily got than a green light in
advance is perfectly entitled to the indicative.
Thanks, I'm beginning to understand.

--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Lyle
2010-11-20 23:49:12 UTC
Permalink
[...]
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by franzi
Of course, if you are contemplating a particular transgression, and
are considering an application for prior clearance for it, then the
fact that post facto pardon will be more easily got than a green
light in advance is perfectly entitled to the indicative.
Thanks, I'm beginning to understand.
I think the problem is at least partly that we don't securely know what
the original expression is intended to mean. I'm assuming it's a
generalisation about attitudes to other people's transgressions --as in,
e.g.,"No, you can't have the last piece of toast" versus "What, you've
eaten the last piece of toast? That's all right!"

Heck, if I'm not dreaming this*, such proverbial utterances can even be
in the past, as with the Greek gnomic aorist. But I can't think of a
solution I'm comfortable with.

*Which is not impossible.
--
Mike.
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