Discussion:
Polite word for "shemale"?
(too old to reply)
j***@hotmail.com
2004-05-04 12:33:26 UTC
Permalink
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
and
2) What pronoun does one use to refer to such people?
david56
2004-05-04 12:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
I think you'll have to tell us what you think this word means.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
2) What pronoun does one use to refer to such people?
they
--
David
=====
Tony Cooper
2004-05-04 13:06:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by david56
Post by j***@hotmail.com
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
I think you'll have to tell us what you think this word means.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
2) What pronoun does one use to refer to such people?
they
A "shemale" is a male that appears to be a female. A transsexual may
be called a "shemale".

The above is intended to be only a clue. It's not a subject that I'm
all that familiar with. I'm not sure where along the line of going
from dressing like a woman and being surgical "converted" from male to
female the term applies.
Ross Howard
2004-05-04 13:25:01 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 04 May 2004 09:06:53 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by david56
Post by j***@hotmail.com
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
I think you'll have to tell us what you think this word means.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
2) What pronoun does one use to refer to such people?
they
A "shemale" is a male that appears to be a female. A transsexual may
be called a "shemale".
The above is intended to be only a clue. It's not a subject that I'm
all that familiar with. I'm not sure where along the line of going
from dressing like a woman and being surgical "converted" from male to
female the term applies.
A clue about which stage of the conversion process is being referred
to is perhaps provided by another common term for shemales: "chix with
dix". In other words, post-implant, pre-snippage.

"Barely legal amature [note the correct spelling] shaved shemale BBW
cheerleader MILFs in goth bukkake anal creampie BDSM moresome!" -- did
I miss any key words?

--
Ross Howard
DE781
2004-05-04 15:04:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Howard
A clue about which stage of the conversion process is being referred
to is perhaps provided by another common term for shemales: "chix with
dix". In other words, post-implant, pre-snippage.
"Post-implant"??? I think you mean "post-estrogen", pre-shrinkage.
Ross Howard
2004-05-04 15:34:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Post by Ross Howard
A clue about which stage of the conversion process is being referred
to is perhaps provided by another common term for shemales: "chix with
dix". In other words, post-implant, pre-snippage.
"Post-implant"??? I think you mean "post-estrogen", pre-shrinkage.
Nope, I meant what I said. Many of them are outside the
medical/social-services loop and off their own bat get backstreet fake
tits and collegen beestings. And the enquiry about the word "shemale"
(rather than "integrated transgender therapy" or whatever it's called
this week) suggested that the sleazier, marginalised whore-'n-porn
side of transsexualism was what was meant. And in that market (which
is what it is) shrinkage is a no-no; clients want a "girl" with a
regular, fully functional penis, the bigger the better.

Incidentally, the breastfree types -- just guys dressed up as women in
other words -- seem to be called "trannies" rather than "shemales".

--
Ross Howard
DE781
2004-05-04 16:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Howard
In other words, post-implant, pre-snippage.
Post by DE781
"Post-implant"??? I think you mean "post-estrogen", pre-shrinkage.
Nope, I meant what I said. Many of them are outside the
medical/social-services loop and off their own bat get backstreet fake
tits and collegen beestings.
What makes you think they all have implants? Some just take estrogen, like
RuPaul. RuPaul is still ENTIRELY MALE, physically. No implants. Ditto for
Giuliani.
Post by Ross Howard
And in that market (which
is what it is) shrinkage is a no-no; clients want a "girl" with a
regular, fully functional penis, the bigger the better.
Right. I'm sure some of them have to take estrogen AND testosterone at the
same time to prevent shrinkage. Or, they just start off hung like a horse to
begin with.
Post by Ross Howard
Incidentally, the breastfree types -- just guys dressed up as women in
other words -- seem to be called "trannies" rather than "shemales".
I've always used "trans" and "she-male" synonymously. "Drag queens" are the
ones who just dress up and don't take female hormones. BTW, once the sex
change is complete, it is no longer supposed to be called "she-male" or
"trans". It's supposed to just be considered a legit woman, like Jamie Lee
Curtis.
Tony Cooper
2004-05-04 16:29:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Howard
Post by DE781
Post by Ross Howard
A clue about which stage of the conversion process is being referred
to is perhaps provided by another common term for shemales: "chix with
dix". In other words, post-implant, pre-snippage.
"Post-implant"??? I think you mean "post-estrogen", pre-shrinkage.
Nope, I meant what I said. Many of them are outside the
medical/social-services loop and off their own bat get backstreet fake
tits and collegen beestings. And the enquiry about the word "shemale"
(rather than "integrated transgender therapy" or whatever it's called
this week) suggested that the sleazier, marginalised whore-'n-porn
side of transsexualism was what was meant. And in that market (which
is what it is) shrinkage is a no-no; clients want a "girl" with a
regular, fully functional penis, the bigger the better.
Incidentally, the breastfree types -- just guys dressed up as women in
other words -- seem to be called "trannies" rather than "shemales".
It's good to have a trans-gender expert in the group. We have enough
experts in gerunds and commas.
Ross Howard
2004-05-04 16:34:58 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 04 May 2004 12:29:15 -0400, Tony Cooper
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ross Howard
Post by DE781
Post by Ross Howard
A clue about which stage of the conversion process is being referred
to is perhaps provided by another common term for shemales: "chix with
dix". In other words, post-implant, pre-snippage.
"Post-implant"??? I think you mean "post-estrogen", pre-shrinkage.
Nope, I meant what I said. Many of them are outside the
medical/social-services loop and off their own bat get backstreet fake
tits and collegen beestings. And the enquiry about the word "shemale"
(rather than "integrated transgender therapy" or whatever it's called
this week) suggested that the sleazier, marginalised whore-'n-porn
side of transsexualism was what was meant. And in that market (which
is what it is) shrinkage is a no-no; clients want a "girl" with a
regular, fully functional penis, the bigger the better.
Incidentally, the breastfree types -- just guys dressed up as women in
other words -- seem to be called "trannies" rather than "shemales".
It's good to have a trans-gender expert in the group. We have enough
experts in gerunds and commas.
A former next door neighbour of mine was "in the sex industry" and
filled me in. Er, I mean...

--
Ross Howard
R H Draney
2004-05-04 15:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Howard
"Barely legal amature [note the correct spelling] shaved shemale BBW
cheerleader MILFs in goth bukkake anal creampie BDSM moresome!" -- did
I miss any key words?
Yeah, "coed", "lesbian" and "adult ear infections"....r
Ross Howard
2004-05-04 16:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by R H Draney
Post by Ross Howard
"Barely legal amature [note the correct spelling] shaved shemale BBW
cheerleader MILFs in goth bukkake anal creampie BDSM moresome!" -- did
I miss any key words?
Yeah, "coed", "lesbian" and "adult ear infections"....r
Yep. Thanks for those massive insertions.


--
Ross Howard
Mike Lyle
2004-05-04 17:25:54 UTC
Permalink
Ross Howard <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<***@4ax.com>...
[...]
Post by Ross Howard
"Barely legal amature [note the correct spelling] shaved shemale BBW
cheerleader MILFs in goth bukkake anal creampie BDSM moresome!" -- did
I miss any key words?
I dunno: is a BBW 'beautiful but worrying'? 'brusque but workmanlike'?
BDSM: would that be the obligatory animals bit? 'Bestial' something?
Funny you don't mention GSOH, though; perhaps the customers don't want
that.

Mike.
david56
2004-05-04 13:38:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by david56
Post by j***@hotmail.com
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
I think you'll have to tell us what you think this word means.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
2) What pronoun does one use to refer to such people?
they
A "shemale" is a male that appears to be a female. A transsexual may
be called a "shemale".
The above is intended to be only a clue. It's not a subject that I'm
all that familiar with. I'm not sure where along the line of going
from dressing like a woman and being surgical "converted" from male to
female the term applies.
Exactly. This is why I wanted a definition from the OP.
--
David
=====
DE781
2004-05-04 15:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
The above is intended to be only a clue. It's not a subject that I'm
all that familiar with. I'm not sure where along the line of going
from dressing like a woman and being surgical "converted" from male to
female the term applies.
What makes you think a trans has to be a man being "converted" to a woman?
Tony Cooper
2004-05-04 15:29:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Post by Tony Cooper
The above is intended to be only a clue. It's not a subject that I'm
all that familiar with. I'm not sure where along the line of going
from dressing like a woman and being surgical "converted" from male to
female the term applies.
What makes you think a trans has to be a man being "converted" to a woman?
I don't do a lot of thinking about this subject, but I have only heard
"shemale" used to refer to a male going through the process of
changing to a woman.

If there is a term for a woman being changed to a man, then I don't
know it. There are several terms for females with mannish
characteristics, that's different.
DE781
2004-05-04 15:57:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
There are several terms for females with mannish
characteristics, that's different.
For example, butch, wo-MAN, Janet Reno.
Post by Tony Cooper
If there is a term for a woman being changed to a man, then I don't
know it.
I was always under the impression that she-male works either way. Richard
Simmons, RuPaul, Rudy Giuliani, Hillary Swank, Janet Reno, & Harvey Firestein
are all she-males, I think. Jamie Lee Curtis is not, because she acts and
thinks of herself as entirely "woman".
Tony Cooper
2004-05-04 16:32:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Post by Tony Cooper
There are several terms for females with mannish
characteristics, that's different.
For example, butch, wo-MAN, Janet Reno.
Post by Tony Cooper
If there is a term for a woman being changed to a man, then I don't
know it.
I was always under the impression that she-male works either way. Richard
Simmons, RuPaul, Rudy Giuliani, Hillary Swank, Janet Reno, & Harvey Firestein
are all she-males, I think. Jamie Lee Curtis is not, because she acts and
thinks of herself as entirely "woman".
Hillary Swank? Are you confusing the roles actresses play in movies
with the real people?

Richard Simmons isn't a "shemale". He's just a male with effeminate
characteristics. Janet Reno is a rather unattractive, but very smart,
female.
j***@hotmail.com
2004-05-04 21:54:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Post by Tony Cooper
There are several terms for females with mannish
characteristics, that's different.
For example, butch, wo-MAN, Janet Reno.
Post by Tony Cooper
If there is a term for a woman being changed to a man, then I don't
know it.
I was always under the impression that she-male works either way. Richard
Simmons, RuPaul, Rudy Giuliani, Hillary Swank, Janet Reno, & Harvey Firestein
are all she-males, I think. Jamie Lee Curtis is not, because she acts and
thinks of herself as entirely "woman".
What on earth --- !!

She (J.L.C.) IS a woman, isn't she?? I would never have suspected ---- !!!
Luca
2004-05-04 14:40:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
Wouldn't that be a hermaphrodite? If IT is endowed with both...
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hermaphrodite
Or "gynandromorph"...
Post by j***@hotmail.com
and
2) What pronoun does one use to refer to such people?
Use its name to refer to it as with "God" in the Bible. Afaik it never
says "he" or "she", it's always "God".

Luca, blasphemy or analogy?
--
"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars.
The rest I just squandered." (George Best)
DE781
2004-05-04 15:05:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luca
Post by j***@hotmail.com
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
Wouldn't that be a hermaphrodite? If IT is endowed with both...
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hermaphrodite
Or "gynandromorph"...
No. Jamie Lee Curtis = hermaphrodite. RuPaul = she-male/trans.
Areff
2004-05-04 15:38:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
No. Jamie Lee Curtis = hermaphrodite.
Now you've gone and wook up Donna.

--
DE781
2004-05-04 16:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Areff
Now you've gone and wook up Donna.
Why's that?
Sara Lorimer
2004-05-04 16:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Areff
Post by DE781
No. Jamie Lee Curtis = hermaphrodite.
Now you've gone and wook up Donna.
Sigh. Let her enjoy her nap:
http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/jamie.htm
--
SML
Dalg! Glidj! Blimlimlim!
http://pirate-women.com
Ross Howard
2004-05-04 16:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sara Lorimer
Post by Areff
Post by DE781
No. Jamie Lee Curtis = hermaphrodite.
Now you've gone and wook up Donna.
http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/jamie.htm
From the same site (also debunked, although it sounds perfectly
reasonable):

Pia Zadora played Anne Frank on stage so badly that the
audience yelled "She's in the attic!" when the Nazis arrived.

--
Ross Howard
DE781
2004-05-04 17:11:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sara Lorimer
Post by Areff
Now you've gone and wook up Donna.
http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/jamie.htm
Janet Lee:

<<my best friend Jackie Gershwin said, "Why don't you call the baby Kelly, so
if it's a girl, it works, and if it's a boy, it works?" And she thought the
same thing with Jamie. The babies were named before they were born because
Jackie said, "This way, we won't have to worry about it!">>

YEAH, RIGHT...!! "Named before they were born so we won't have to worry about
it"? Either Janet Lee was keeping a little too close to the bong that day, or
there's something SERIOUSLY whack with her "daughter" that she's trying to
cover up! My parents and grandparents remember that when Jamie Lee Curtis was
born, she was put through all kinds of tests and stuff. "Something" was wrong
with her, but no one ever came out and admitted what.

Trying to smear Janet Lee and Henry Curtis' names? I don't think anyone under
50 even knows or cares who they are! BTW, "Kelly" is NOT a really normal name
for a boy. BTW, if they wanted to "avoid worry" about naming the kids, doesn't
the normal person pick a "boy" name and a "girl" name beforehand? That
excuse--bisexual names---holds no water!
R H Draney
2004-05-04 18:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Trying to smear Janet Lee and Henry Curtis' names? I don't think anyone under
50 even knows or cares who they are! BTW, "Kelly" is NOT a really normal name
for a boy. BTW, if they wanted to "avoid worry" about naming the kids, doesn't
the normal person pick a "boy" name and a "girl" name beforehand? That
excuse--bisexual names---holds no water!
As I once suggested to a colleague: if it's a boy, call him "Donald Dean"; if
it's a girl, "Donaldine"....r
Areff
2004-05-04 19:12:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
BTW, "Kelly" is NOT a really normal name
for a boy.
A former cow*rker of mine was a presumptively male person with the first
name Kelly. Before I met him, I'd assumed that he was a she, from the
name. I think it might've been some kind of Irish or Irish-American
thing, in his case. Don't check with Coop.

But yes, shirley any postwar American would assume that a "Kelly" was
female.

--
Arcadian Rises
2004-05-04 19:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Areff
A former cow*rker of mine was a presumptively male person with the first
name Kelly.
Can someone explain the fine difference (if any) between "presumably" and
"presumptively"?
DE781
2004-05-04 20:05:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Areff
But yes, shirley any postwar American would assume that a "Kelly" was
female.
I wouldn't *assume* that. I have heard of male Kellys. Kelly Slater, for
example. But, I'd have to say that 99.9% of all "Kellys" are female. It's
generally a woman's name. There are plenty more bisexual names than either
Kelly or Jamie. Randy, Jo/Joe, Timmy, Chris, Pat, Shaniqua, Mindy,
Jesse/Jessie, Sandy, etc.
Evan Kirshenbaum
2004-05-04 21:24:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Post by Areff
But yes, shirley any postwar American would assume that a "Kelly"
was female.
I wouldn't *assume* that. I have heard of male Kellys. Kelly
Slater, for example. But, I'd have to say that 99.9% of all
"Kellys" are female.
81.8% in the US according to the 1990 census. 283/100,000 females,
63/100,000 males. There were more male "Kelly"s than there were
"Evan"s (42/100,000).

See

http://www.census.gov/genealogy/www/freqnames.html
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |There is no such thing as bad data,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |only data from bad homes.
Palo Alto, CA 94304

***@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Tony Cooper
2004-05-04 20:31:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Areff
Post by DE781
BTW, "Kelly" is NOT a really normal name
for a boy.
A former cow*rker of mine was a presumptively male person with the first
name Kelly. Before I met him, I'd assumed that he was a she, from the
name. I think it might've been some kind of Irish or Irish-American
thing, in his case. Don't check with Coop.
True story: My daughter went to high school with a guy with Kelly as
his first name. He hated the name because it was often mistaken for a
girl's name. He had it legally changed to "George" in his second year
of college. George, because a relative that he was fond - and who had
died the previous year - had the name.

Two years after graduating, George met girl at a party. Her first
name was Kelly. That led to a conversation, which led to dating,
which led to marriage.
R J Valentine
2004-05-05 02:57:58 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 04 May 2004 16:31:20 -0400 Tony Cooper <***@earthlink.net> wrote:
...
} of college. George, because a relative that he was fond - and who had
} died the previous year - had the name.
...

Now, cut that out!
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:***@smart.net>
He _lived_ in Waukegan, but he was _born_ in Chicago.
Stewart Gargis
2004-05-05 22:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Areff
Post by DE781
BTW, "Kelly" is NOT a really normal name
for a boy.
A former cow*rker of mine was a presumptively male person with the first
name Kelly. Before I met him, I'd assumed that he was a she, from the
name. I think it might've been some kind of Irish or Irish-American
thing, in his case. Don't check with Coop.
True story: My daughter went to high school with a guy with Kelly as
his first name. He hated the name because it was often mistaken for a
girl's name. He had it legally changed to "George" in his second year
of college. George, because a relative that he was fond - and who had
died the previous year - had the name.
Two years after graduating, George met girl at a party. Her first
name was Kelly. That led to a conversation, which led to dating,
which led to marriage.
Anticlimactic. I thought you were going to say he had a sex change
operation and changed his name back to Kelly.
Tony Cooper
2004-05-04 20:34:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Post by Sara Lorimer
Post by Areff
Now you've gone and wook up Donna.
http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/jamie.htm
<<my best friend Jackie Gershwin said, "Why don't you call the baby Kelly, so
if it's a girl, it works, and if it's a boy, it works?" And she thought the
same thing with Jamie. The babies were named before they were born because
Jackie said, "This way, we won't have to worry about it!">>
YEAH, RIGHT...!! "Named before they were born so we won't have to worry about
it"? Either Janet Lee was keeping a little too close to the bong that day, or
there's something SERIOUSLY whack with her "daughter" that she's trying to
cover up! My parents and grandparents remember that when Jamie Lee Curtis was
born, she was put through all kinds of tests and stuff. "Something" was wrong
with her, but no one ever came out and admitted what.
Trying to smear Janet Lee and Henry Curtis' names? I don't think anyone under
50 even knows or cares who they are! BTW, "Kelly" is NOT a really normal name
for a boy. BTW, if they wanted to "avoid worry" about naming the kids, doesn't
the normal person pick a "boy" name and a "girl" name beforehand? That
excuse--bisexual names---holds no water!
I've never thought that DE781 is a particularly normal name. One
hundred percent of the people that I've heard of with that name are
whack-jobs.
DE781
2004-05-04 21:08:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
I've never thought that DE781 is a particularly normal name. One
hundred percent of the people that I've heard of with that name are
whack-jobs.
Ha, ha, ha, so funny I forgot to laugh! Anyhoo, 100% of all "Coopers" I know
are Janet Reno molesters. Yuck! I'd rather be a victim of Michael Jackson!
Ben Zimmer
2004-05-05 04:34:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Trying to smear Janet Lee and Henry Curtis' names? I don't think anyone under
50 even knows or cares who they are!
On the off-chance that this isn't troll-bait, JLC's parents were Janet
Leigh and Tony Curtis. For Janet, you might want to rent "Psycho" (the
original, not the Gus Van Sant remake) and "The Manchurian Candidate"
(the original, not the upcoming Jonathan Demme remake). For Tony, try
"Some Like It Hot" and "Spartacus" (the original, not the recent TV
movie with the guy from "ER").
Carmen L. Abruzzi
2004-05-05 06:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Zimmer
Post by DE781
Trying to smear Janet Lee and Henry Curtis' names? I don't think anyone under
50 even knows or cares who they are!
On the off-chance that this isn't troll-bait, JLC's parents were Janet
Leigh and Tony Curtis. For Janet, you might want to rent "Psycho" (the
original, not the Gus Van Sant remake) and "The Manchurian Candidate"
(the original, not the upcoming Jonathan Demme remake). For Tony, try
"Some Like It Hot" and "Spartacus" (the original, not the recent TV
movie with the guy from "ER").
Some like snails served hot in oyster shells, innit?

Are you now or have you ever been Spartacus?
DE781
2004-05-05 17:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Zimmer
Post by DE781
Trying to smear Janet Lee and Henry Curtis' names? I don't think anyone
under
Post by DE781
50 even knows or cares who they are!
On the off-chance that this isn't troll-bait, JLC's parents were Janet
Leigh and Tony Curtis.
Ben, of *course* it's not "troll-bait" (whatever the hell that means). When I
said no one under 50 knows who they are, I wasn't saying that I don't realize
that they're Lee Curtis' parents. Obviously, I know that her parents were two
has-been actors from the silent film era. BUT, still, could I have pointed
them out from a crowd at the Oscars before their deaths? Hell no! That's what
I meant by "no one knows or cares who they are"; they're just two more old
people, without the interesting attributes of Dick Van Dyke, Sophia Loren, Bea
Arthur, Judi Dench, Sean Connery, James Earl Jones, Charro, George Burns,
Estelle Getty, Marlon Brando, Lucille Ball, Anthony Hopkins, Milton Berle,
Walter Chronkite, Joy Behar, and some other old mcnasties.
Post by Ben Zimmer
For Janet, you might want to rent "Psycho" (the
original, not the Gus Van Sant remake)
So, she played Anne Heche, eh? I *knew* there was even more transsexuality
involved. A coincidence? I don't think so! It's PROOF that Jamie Lee is a
man, baby!
Post by Ben Zimmer
For Tony, try
"Some Like It Hot" and "Spartacus"
Sparticus? Wasn't that the movie where he told one of his Roman lovers that he
likes both oysters AND clams? VERY INTERESTING, indeed!
R H Draney
2004-05-05 18:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Post by Ben Zimmer
For Janet, you might want to rent "Psycho" (the
original, not the Gus Van Sant remake)
So, she played Anne Heche, eh? I *knew* there was even more transsexuality
involved. A coincidence? I don't think so! It's PROOF that Jamie Lee is a
man, baby!
In either version (since they're virtually identical apart from the amount of
money embezzled), Heche/Leigh plays Marion *Crane*, the movie opens in
*Phoenix*, and Norman's hobby is performing taxidermy on various *birds*....

That Hitchcock sure knew how to cross-promote his pictures....
Post by DE781
Post by Ben Zimmer
For Tony, try
"Some Like It Hot" and "Spartacus"
Sparticus? Wasn't that the movie where he told one of his Roman lovers that he
likes both oysters AND clams? VERY INTERESTING, indeed!
Better advice: try "The Black Shield of Falworth", with the memorable line
"Yondah lies da castle of my faddah"....r
Stewart Gargis
2004-05-05 22:38:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by R H Draney
Post by DE781
Post by Ben Zimmer
For Janet, you might want to rent "Psycho" (the
original, not the Gus Van Sant remake)
So, she played Anne Heche, eh? I *knew* there was even more
transsexuality
Post by R H Draney
Post by DE781
involved. A coincidence? I don't think so! It's PROOF that Jamie Lee is a
man, baby!
In either version (since they're virtually identical apart from the amount of
money embezzled), Heche/Leigh plays Marion *Crane*, the movie opens in
*Phoenix*, and Norman's hobby is performing taxidermy on various *birds*....
That Hitchcock sure knew how to cross-promote his pictures....
Post by DE781
Post by Ben Zimmer
For Tony, try
"Some Like It Hot" and "Spartacus"
Sparticus? Wasn't that the movie where he told one of his Roman lovers that he
likes both oysters AND clams? VERY INTERESTING, indeed!
Better advice: try "The Black Shield of Falworth", with the memorable line
"Yondah lies da castle of my faddah"....r
That isn't the movie he didn't say it in:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000348/bio
Ben Zimmer
2004-05-10 16:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Post by Ben Zimmer
Post by DE781
Trying to smear Janet Lee and Henry Curtis' names? I don't think
anyone under 50 even knows or cares who they are!
On the off-chance that this isn't troll-bait, JLC's parents were Janet
Leigh and Tony Curtis.
[...]
Post by DE781
Post by Ben Zimmer
For Janet, you might want to rent "Psycho" (the
original, not the Gus Van Sant remake)
So, she played Anne Heche, eh? I *knew* there was even more
transsexuality involved. A coincidence? I don't think so!
It's PROOF that Jamie Lee is a man, baby!
Post by Ben Zimmer
For Tony, try
"Some Like It Hot" and "Spartacus"
Sparticus? Wasn't that the movie where he told one of his Roman lovers
that he likes both oysters AND clams? VERY INTERESTING, indeed!
Snails, not clams, and it's Crassus (Laurence Olivier) who likes them both.
That scene was memorably featured in "Clueless"... "Christian had a thing
for Tony Curtis, so he brought over 'Some Like It Hot' and 'Sporadicus'!"

(Just wait till YJ finds out what "Some Like It Hot" is about... Hint: it
blazed the trail for "Tootsie", "Mrs. Doubtfire", "Bosom Buddies", and the
recent "Connie and Carla"...)
--
"You don't understand, Osgood... I'm a man!"
"Well, nobody's perfect."
Evan Kirshenbaum
2004-05-12 21:47:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Zimmer
(Just wait till YJ finds out what "Some Like It Hot" is about... Hint: it
blazed the trail for "Tootsie", "Mrs. Doubtfire", "Bosom Buddies", and the
recent "Connie and Carla"...)
And _Victor/Victoria_ and _Yentl_ and others...not to mention _As You
Like It_ and _Twelfth Night_.

Early productions of AYLI must have been fun, with a boy playing
Rosilind playing Ganymede playing Rosalind. Has anybody gone further?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The great thing about Microsoft
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |dominating the world is that
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |there's no shortage of support
|opportunities.
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(650)857-7572

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Stewart Gargis
2004-05-05 22:30:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ben Zimmer
Post by DE781
Trying to smear Janet Lee and Henry Curtis' names? I don't think anyone under
50 even knows or cares who they are!
On the off-chance that this isn't troll-bait, JLC's parents were Janet
Leigh and Tony Curtis. For Janet, you might want to rent "Psycho" (the
original, not the Gus Van Sant remake) and "The Manchurian Candidate"
(the original, not the upcoming Jonathan Demme remake). For Tony, try
"Some Like It Hot" and "Spartacus" (the original, not the recent TV
movie with the guy from "ER").
Or rent "The Perfect Furlough" and see them both at the same time.
Chris Malcolm
2004-05-05 18:11:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Post by Sara Lorimer
Post by Areff
Now you've gone and wook up Donna.
http://www.snopes.com/movies/actors/jamie.htm
<<my best friend Jackie Gershwin said, "Why don't you call the baby Kelly, so
if it's a girl, it works, and if it's a boy, it works?" And she thought the
same thing with Jamie. The babies were named before they were born because
Jackie said, "This way, we won't have to worry about it!">>
YEAH, RIGHT...!! "Named before they were born so we won't have to worry about
it"? Either Janet Lee was keeping a little too close to the bong that day, or
there's something SERIOUSLY whack with her "daughter" that she's trying to
cover up!
I've known bongless parents who chose neutral names beforehand.
Post by DE781
Trying to smear Janet Lee and Henry Curtis' names? I don't think anyone under
50 even knows or cares who they are! BTW, "Kelly" is NOT a really normal name
for a boy. BTW, if they wanted to "avoid worry" about naming the kids, doesn't
the normal person pick a "boy" name and a "girl" name beforehand? That
excuse--bisexual names---holds no water!
And I've know parents whose girl child had a male name because they
chose the name beforehand based on an intuition about the sex, and
intuited wrong.

I think you need to get out more. Your opinions are remarkably
unsullied by experience.
--
Chris Malcolm ***@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Tony Cooper
2004-05-04 15:22:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luca
Post by j***@hotmail.com
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
Wouldn't that be a hermaphrodite? If IT is endowed with both...
I don't think so. I would think the term is only used about a person
that is going through some process of self-induced change and not to
refer to a natural condition.
Luca
2004-05-04 15:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Luca
Post by j***@hotmail.com
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
Wouldn't that be a hermaphrodite? If IT is endowed with both...
I don't think so. I would think the term is only used about a person
that is going through some process of self-induced change and not to
refer to a natural condition.
In that case, could it be "transsexual"?

Luca
DE781
2004-05-04 15:02:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
It.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
and
2) What pronoun does one use to refer to such people?
It.
Jerry Friedman
2004-05-04 17:32:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
and
2) What pronoun does one use to refer to such people?
Try a search for "Androgyny FAQ" and "Androgyny RAQ". There are a
couple on the Web.

This is from <http://www.chaparraltree.com/raq/manners.shtml>

<begin>

M. Manners' Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior toward (and by)
Androgynes
(Or, Brothersister Raphael Explains it All to You)

What pronoun does one use for an androgyne, intersexual, epicene,
gender outlaw, or transgendered person?

Obviously, it is polite to accede to people's preferences, if you know
what those preferences are. Guessing wrong is a trivial faux pas that
should be fully atoned for by a quick apology. However, referring to a
person by a pronoun against that person's stated wish is churlish.
M. Manners' own preference, incidentally, is 'whatever makes you feel
comfortable.' Some friends refer to zir as 'he,' some as 'she,' and
that's perfectly fine by zir. A few go so far as to switch
occasionally (which M. Manners calls, with apologies to Janet Kagan,
'hellsparking the pronoun'); others use a nongendered pronoun like
'sie' or 'zie.'

What do I do if I can't tell what sex someone is?

Most of the time, you go through a peculiar dance in trying to find
out, as chronicled ad nauseam on the Saturday Night Live 'Pat' skits.
M. Manners has been asked by an insurance agent, 'Of course, you know,
men pay more for life insurance than women. So, ah, would that be a
good thing or a bad thing?'
Other times, you stutter out 'sir, er, ma'am, um, whatever you are.'
This is known as "radaring", after the way Radar O'Reilly addressed
Major Hoolihan.

Sometimes, too, you respond to ambiguous sex with paralysis, refusing
to use any pronoun at all, and becoming more and more nervous and
uncomfortable as a result.

Occasionally you even see fit to tell an androgyne what sex zie is. M.
Manners zirself was once informed 'you're just a woman with very short
hair -- I didn't realize from the back.'

That, ninety-nine times out of a hundred, is what you do. If you meant
to ask what you should do, the answer is: ask politely what pronoun
the person would prefer. The other solutions are patronizing, inept,
pathetic, and boorish, in that order.

<end>

I must say I'd find it very difficult to ask someone what pronoun he,
she, or zie preferred.

I recently heard a report on the radio on this topic. A
seventeen-year-old had been murdered in San Jose, Cal., by the men she
was partying with once they found out she had male genitals.
Gay-friendly activists, after something like a year of protests, got
the _San Jose Mercury-News_ to use female pronouns for the victim
instead of male, according to her preference and self-identification.
As you see, I went along too.
--
Jerry Friedman
DE781
2004-05-04 20:45:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jerry Friedman
Occasionally you even see fit to tell an androgyne what sex zie is. M.
Manners zirself was once informed 'you're just a woman with very short
She's OBVIOUSLY a woman, 1. because she's gay and 2. because she refers to
herself as "zirself", not "zimself". If I were to be gay and just MAKE UP a
pronoun for myself that starts with "Z", I'd use "zie", "zim", and "zimself".
She uses "Zie", "zir", and "zirself". Notice a pattern? The twat!

I hope you guys tell her that her "zie" shit is less intelligible than my
"funner", which is definitely a legit word.
Post by Jerry Friedman
I must say I'd find it very difficult to ask someone what pronoun he,
she, or zie preferred.
Tell me about it! I wanna give the zhit a piece of my mind! I'm all for
breaking down stereotypical roles of what "man" and "woman" should be "allowed"
to be. BUT, this is just absurd! There's no need to make people uncomfortable
in trying to "figure out" what sex you are. The zhit says zhit doesn't care
about being asked whether zhit's a wo-MAN, but I'm sure plenty of other people
WOULD care.
Post by Jerry Friedman
by the men she
was partying with once they found out she had male genitals.
It's, therefore, a male. Male = born with penis. Female = born with veej.
You can't change your gender, only what your gender APPEARS to be. It'd be
like me suddenly claiming I'm *not* Italian because I wanna bee Chinese
instead.
Evan Kirshenbaum
2004-05-04 22:05:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Post by Jerry Friedman
Occasionally you even see fit to tell an androgyne what sex zie is. M.
Manners zirself was once informed 'you're just a woman with very short
She's OBVIOUSLY a woman, 1. because she's gay and 2. because she
refers to herself as "zirself", not "zimself". If I were to be gay
and just MAKE UP a pronoun for myself that starts with "Z", I'd use
"zie", "zim", and "zimself". She uses "Zie", "zir", and "zirself".
Notice a pattern? The twat!
Of course, this all assumes that she "just made up the pronoun" rather
than simply following one of the several established ones:

zie sie e
zir hir em
zir hir eir
zirs hirs eirs
zirself hirself eirself

"Zir" appears to have first shown up on Usenet in November, 1993 in
both soc.singles and alt.polyamory, and in soc.bi the next month.

The "e, em" series are called "Spivak pronouns", after mathematician
Michael Spivak, who developed them for use in his books. The MOO
systems supported ten genders (for you or any object you created):

Neuter: it, it, its, its, itself
Female: she, her, her, hers, herself
Male: he, him, his, his, himself
Either: s/he, him/her, his/her, his/hers, (him/her)self
Spivak: e, em, eir, eirs, eirself
Splat: *e, h*, h*, h*s, h*self
Plural: they, them, their, theirs, themselves
Egotistical: I, me, my, mine, myself
Royal: we, us, our, ours, ourselves
2nd: you, you, your, yours, yourself

http://www.du.org/chelsea/gender.htm
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The law of supply and demand tells us
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that when the price of something is
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |artificially set below market level,
|there will soon be none of that thing
***@hpl.hp.com |left--as you may have noticed the
(650)857-7572 |last time you tried to buy something
|for nothing.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke
Jerry Friedman
2004-05-05 03:07:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by DE781
Post by Jerry Friedman
Occasionally you even see fit to tell an androgyne what sex zie is. M.
Manners zirself was once informed 'you're just a woman with very short
She's OBVIOUSLY a woman, 1. because she's gay and 2. because she refers to
herself as "zirself", not "zimself". If I were to be gay and just MAKE UP a
pronoun for myself that starts with "Z", I'd use "zie", "zim", and "zimself".
She uses "Zie", "zir", and "zirself". Notice a pattern? The twat!
...

I see "i" from "him" and "r" from "her".
Post by DE781
Post by Jerry Friedman
I must say I'd find it very difficult to ask someone what pronoun he,
she, or zie preferred.
Tell me about it! I wanna give the zhit a piece of my mind!
There's a link to an e-mail form at zir home page.
Post by DE781
I'm all for
breaking down stereotypical roles of what "man" and "woman" should be "allowed"
to be. BUT, this is just absurd! There's no need to make people uncomfortable
in trying to "figure out" what sex you are. The zhit says zhit doesn't care
about being asked whether zhit's a wo-MAN, but I'm sure plenty of other people
WOULD care.
That's my problem. Almost everybody would be offended if you asked.
However, if you really can't tell, maybe those are exactly the people
who wouldn't be offended.

Raphael Carter (M. Manners) also said zie wouldn't be offended if you
guessed.
Post by DE781
Post by Jerry Friedman
by the men she
was partying with once they found out she had male genitals.
It's, therefore, a male. Male = born with penis. Female = born with veej.
You can't change your gender, only what your gender APPEARS to be.
Do you want to check that in a dictionary? Try
<http://www.bartleby.com/61/59/G0075900.html>.
Post by DE781
It'd be
like me suddenly claiming I'm *not* Italian because I wanna bee Chinese
instead.
--
Jerry Friedman
Steve Hayes
2004-05-04 19:35:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
and
What language is it?

Is it Yiddish, like schmuck and schlemiel?
Post by j***@hotmail.com
2) What pronoun does one use to refer to such people?
They, them, their.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Xalinai
2004-05-05 14:29:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by j***@hotmail.com
1) What is a more polite word for "shemale"?
and
That depends on what they are.

You have transsexuals in the process of changing, here the polite form
is to refer to persons according to their public visual gender role as
you would to any male or female in the appropriate role.

You have sex workers with attributes of different gender - then
shemale refers to female appearance with male genitals and, as this
specifies selection criteria for potential customers, you should use
shemale to refer to that person.

You have males (gay or hetero) in female attire - transvestite or Drag
Queen would be the word of choice.

If you do not mix up the three categories, you won't be wrong.
Post by j***@hotmail.com
2) What pronoun does one use to refer to such people?
You refer to people by their name or, if you can't avoid it, by the
gender of the role they are currently in. If a drag queen dropped the
robes and sits at the bar in male clothes, only close (gay?) friends
will refer to the person as "she".

It is always a bit strange if people are referred to by their role
name instead of their real name - avoid it where possible, not
everyone likes to be adressed as "Queen of the Night" when you meet
him at Walmart.

Michael
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