'Woman' - one for the dicktionary

[Hibou]

'Supreme Court to hear case on definition of a woman' -

"Judges at the Supreme Court are to consider how women are defined in
law in a landmark case brought by Scottish campaigners.

It is the culmination of a long-running legal dispute which started with
a relatively niche piece of legislation at the Scottish Parliament, but
which could have big UK-wide implications.

It will set out exactly how the law is meant to treat trans people, and
what it really means to go through the gender recognition process.

And it could have implications for the running of single-sex spaces and
services, and how measures aimed at tackling discrimination will operate
in future [...]

The most recent census found there were 19,990 people in Scotland who
were trans, or had a trans history - under 0.5% of the adult population.

The figure for England and Wales is also around 0.5% - 262,000 people
told the last census that their gender identity and birth sex were
different" -

<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgv8v5ge37o>


0.5%? I've long thought that this is a case of a 0.5% tail wagging a
99.5% dog.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Hibou
'Supreme Court to hear case on definition of a woman' -
"Judges at the Supreme Court are to consider how women are defined in
law in a landmark case brought by Scottish campaigners.
It is the culmination of a long-running legal dispute which started
with a relatively niche piece of legislation at the Scottish
Parliament, but which could have big UK-wide implications.
It will set out exactly how the law is meant to treat trans people, and
what it really means to go through the gender recognition process.
And it could have implications for the running of single-sex spaces and
services, and how measures aimed at tackling discrimination will
operate in future [...]
The most recent census found there were 19,990 people in Scotland who
were trans, or had a trans history - under 0.5% of the adult population.
The figure for England and Wales is also around 0.5% - 262,000 people
told the last census that their gender identity and birth sex were
different" -
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgv8v5ge37o>
0.5%? I've long thought that this is a case of a 0.5% tail wagging a 99.5% dog.

Yes. You're right.

What do you think of this? Emo is a small Canadian town in the middle
of nowhere, on the border with the USA. It has just lost a case brought
by an organization called Borderland Pride, and will have to pay $15000
"damages" for refusing a demand to declare June 2020 "Pride Month".

[Hibou]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Hibou
0.5%? I've long thought that this is a case of a 0.5% tail wagging a 99.5% dog.

Yes. You're right.
What do you think of this? Emo is a small Canadian town in the middle of
nowhere, on the border with the USA. It has just lost a case brought by
an organization called Borderland Pride, and will have to pay $15000
"damages" for refusing a demand to declare June 2020 "Pride Month".

Seems pretty daft.

<https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/ontario-human-rights-tribunal-fines-emo-township-for-refusing-pride-proclamation-1.7390134>

But then I'm not keen on this use of the word 'pride'. One can be proud
of one's achievements, I think - a job well done, raising a child to be
a decent human being... - but not of what one just happens to be -
English or Canadian; man or woman; straight or homosexual; black, white,
green (aliens), or orange (ITOMA - it's that other man again)....

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Hibou
But then I'm not keen on this use of the word 'pride'. One can be proud
of one's achievements, I think - a job well done, raising a child to be
a decent human being... - but not of what one just happens to be -
English or Canadian; man or woman; straight or homosexual; black, white,
green (aliens), or orange (ITOMA - it's that other man again)....

I can understand why they want to use the word "pride" as opposed to the
shame that many people have had to live with.

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou
But then I'm not keen on this use of the word 'pride'. One can be proud
of one's achievements, I think - a job well done, raising a child to be
a decent human being... - but not of what one just happens to be -
English or Canadian; man or woman; straight or homosexual; black, white,
green (aliens), or orange (ITOMA - it's that other man again)....

I can understand why they want to use the word "pride" as opposed to the
shame that many people have had to live with.

Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, and cribbing from
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins> I find:
'hyperephania' pride, sometimes rendered as self-overestimation,
arrogance, or grandiosity.

That's nothing to shout about.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou
But then I'm not keen on this use of the word 'pride'. One can be proud
of one's achievements, I think - a job well done, raising a child to be
a decent human being... - but not of what one just happens to be -
English or Canadian; man or woman; straight or homosexual; black, white,
green (aliens), or orange (ITOMA - it's that other man again)....

I can understand why they want to use the word "pride" as opposed to the
shame that many people have had to live with.

A serious problem[1] arises when this new use of the word obliterates
its 'real' meaning.

[1] It isn't a problem for those who only have the vaguest notion of the
original meaning.

c.f. "Gay".

[Snidely]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou
But then I'm not keen on this use of the word 'pride'. One can be proud
of one's achievements, I think - a job well done, raising a child to be
a decent human being... - but not of what one just happens to be -
English or Canadian; man or woman; straight or homosexual; black, white,
green (aliens), or orange (ITOMA - it's that other man again)....

I can understand why they want to use the word "pride" as opposed to the
shame that many people have had to live with.

A serious problem[1] arises when this new use of the word obliterates its
'real' meaning.
[1] It isn't a problem for those who only have the vaguest notion of the
original meaning.
c.f. "Gay".

That's nice, isn't it?

-d

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Snidely

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou
But then I'm not keen on this use of the word 'pride'. One can be proud
of one's achievements, I think - a job well done, raising a child to be
a decent human being... - but not of what one just happens to be -
English or Canadian; man or woman; straight or homosexual; black, white,
green (aliens), or orange (ITOMA - it's that other man again)....

I can understand why they want to use the word "pride" as opposed to the
shame that many people have had to live with.

A serious problem[1] arises when this new use of the word obliterates
its 'real' meaning.
[1] It isn't a problem for those who only have the vaguest notion of
the original meaning.
c.f. "Gay".

That's nice, isn't it?

A simple answer. The OED gives one meaning of "Simple" as 'Free from,
devoid of pride' - so we seem to have come full circle.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou
But then I'm not keen on this use of the word 'pride'. One can be proud
of one's achievements, I think - a job well done, raising a child to be
a decent human being... - but not of what one just happens to be -
English or Canadian; man or woman; straight or homosexual; black, white,
green (aliens), or orange (ITOMA - it's that other man again)....

I can understand why they want to use the word "pride" as opposed to the
shame that many people have had to live with.

A serious problem[1] arises when this new use of the word obliterates
its 'real' meaning.
[1] It isn't a problem for those who only have the vaguest notion of
the original meaning.
c.f. "Gay".

In French, "gai" means what it always meant, though sometimes one hears
"gay" pronounced as what French people think English sounds like.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I can understand why they want to use the word "pride" as opposed to the
shame that many people have had to live with.

A serious problem[1] arises when this new use of the word obliterates
its 'real' meaning.

I see your point, but I don't think that the everyday use and the
demonstration use overlaps. Does anyone walk around and declare that
they are proud?

Post by Sam Plusnet
[1] It isn't a problem for those who only have the vaguest notion of the
original meaning.
c.f. "Gay".

"Gay" is a real problem. The original meaning is dead.

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 22:15:34 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I can understand why they want to use the word "pride" as opposed to the
shame that many people have had to live with.

A serious problem[1] arises when this new use of the word obliterates
its 'real' meaning.

I see your point, but I don't think that the everyday use and the
demonstration use overlaps. Does anyone walk around and declare that
they are proud?

Isn't there a group in the US whose members call themselves the "Proud
Boys"?

[Rich Ulrich]

On Thu, 28 Nov 2024 04:47:54 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 22:15:34 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I can understand why they want to use the word "pride" as opposed to the
shame that many people have had to live with.

A serious problem[1] arises when this new use of the word obliterates
its 'real' meaning.

I see your point, but I don't think that the everyday use and the
demonstration use overlaps. Does anyone walk around and declare that
they are proud?

Isn't there a group in the US whose members call themselves the "Proud
Boys"?

Google hits,

(Wiki) The Proud Boys is a North American far-right, neo-fascist
militant organization that promotes and engages in political violence.
The group's leaders have ...

Jan 6, 2020 — Proud Boys members accounted for the highest number of
extremist arrestees in relation to the insurrection, with over 57
members and affiliates of chapters ...

Jun 3, 2024 — The Proud Boys are re-emerging as unofficial protectors
of ex-President Donald Trump, hoping he'll pardon members jailed in
the Capitol riot ...

To my mind, "North American far-right, neo-fascist militant
organization" always indicates White Supremacy as a major
unifying sentiment. Am I missing some?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Steve Hayes
Isn't there a group in the US whose members call themselves the "Proud
Boys"?

That's a different sense of the word, applied for example to a pimple.

adjective: Standing out or raised; swollen

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Wed, 27 Nov 2024 22:15:34 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I can understand why they want to use the word "pride" as opposed to the
shame that many people have had to live with.

A serious problem[1] arises when this new use of the word obliterates
its 'real' meaning.

I see your point, but I don't think that the everyday use and the
demonstration use overlaps. Does anyone walk around and declare that
they are proud?

Isn't there a group in the US whose members call themselves the "Proud
Boys"?

Yes. Expect to see one of those who were convicted for the assault on
the Capital pardoned, and included in the Cabinet.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I can understand why they want to use the word "pride" as opposed to the
shame that many people have had to live with.

A serious problem[1] arises when this new use of the word obliterates
its 'real' meaning.

I see your point, but I don't think that the everyday use and the
demonstration use overlaps. Does anyone walk around and declare that
they are proud?

Post by Sam Plusnet
[1] It isn't a problem for those who only have the vaguest notion of the
original meaning.
c.f. "Gay".

"Gay" is a real problem. The original meaning is dead.

Yes... skunked.
As far as 'pride' goes, it is not quite as skunked, but it's on the way.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I can understand why they want to use the word "pride" as opposed to the
shame that many people have had to live with.

A serious problem[1] arises when this new use of the word obliterates
its 'real' meaning.

I see your point, but I don't think that the everyday use and the
demonstration use overlaps. Does anyone walk around and declare that
they are proud?

Post by Sam Plusnet
[1] It isn't a problem for those who only have the vaguest notion of the
original meaning.
c.f. "Gay".

"Gay" is a real problem. The original meaning is dead.

The Beggar's Opera was written in 1728 by John Gay and the first
performance directed by John Rich. It was tremendously successful and
was said to have made Rich gay and Gay rich, a witticism that might be
difficult to understand today.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Hibou

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Hibou
0.5%? I've long thought that this is a case of a 0.5% tail wagging a 99.5% dog.

Yes. You're right.
What do you think of this? Emo is a small Canadian town in the middle
of nowhere, on the border with the USA. It has just lost a case brought
by an organization called Borderland Pride, and will have to pay $15000
"damages" for refusing a demand to declare June 2020 "Pride Month".

Seems pretty daft.
<https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/ontario-human-rights-tribunal-fines-emo-township-for-refusing-pride-proclamation-1.7390134>
But then I'm not keen on this use of the word 'pride'. One can be proud
of one's achievements, I think - a job well done, raising a child to be
a decent human being... - but not of what one just happens to be -
English or Canadian; man or woman; straight or homosexual; black,
white, green (aliens), or orange (ITOMA - it's that other man again)....

I agree with all that.

[HVS]

Post by Hibou

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Hibou
0.5%? I've long thought that this is a case of a 0.5% tail
wagging a 99.5% dog.

Yes. You're right.
What do you think of this? Emo is a small Canadian town in the
middle of nowhere, on the border with the USA. It has just lost a
case brought by an organization called Borderland Pride, and will
have to pay $15000 "damages" for refusing a demand to declare
June 2020 "Pride Month".

Seems pretty daft.
<https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/ontario-human-rights-tri
bunal-fines-emo-township-for-refusing-pride-proclamation-1.7390134>
But then I'm not keen on this use of the word 'pride'. One can be
proud of one's achievements, I think - a job well done, raising a
child to be a decent human being... - but not of what one just
happens to be - English or Canadian; man or woman; straight or
homosexual; black, white, green (aliens), or orange (ITOMA - it's
that other man again)....

I agree, but you don't have to look very hard to find a whole heap
o' people who are eager to proclaim that they're "proud to be" what
they just happen to be -- English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish/Canadian or
American. (Especially American.)

I still find it unsettling when I encounter what I'd classify as
American-style proclamations of national pride transferred to a
Canadian setting -- flying a large flag in the front yard, say, or
hand-on-heart when singing the national anthem.

I'm pretty sure that WIWAL, we Canadians considered ourselves to be
above such things.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by HVS
I still find it unsettling when I encounter what I'd classify as
American-style proclamations of national pride transferred to a
Canadian setting -- flying a large flag in the front yard, say, or
hand-on-heart when singing the national anthem.

I see "hand-on-heart" a lot when the national hymns are sung at foo ...
soccer matches no matter which teams compete.

Why apostrophes? Because the heart is not where most people think it is.
It is almost perfectly centered.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by HVS
I still find it unsettling when I encounter what I'd classify as
American-style proclamations of national pride transferred to a
Canadian setting -- flying a large flag in the front yard, say, or
hand-on-heart when singing the national anthem.
I'm pretty sure that WIWAL, we Canadians considered ourselves to be
above such things.

I'm bothered by the same thing in Australia. The Australian flag has
become a right-wing symbol, and flying it in one's yard usually
indicates an extremist viewpoint.

Except in one case: if a business is flying the flag, you can be pretty
certain that it's an American company. For some reason American
companies -- but no other nationality -- believe that flying the
national flag of the host country is a good thing.

At least the movie theatres no longer play "God save the Queen" at the
end of the session.

The traditional Australian attitude is that overt displays of patriotism
are a sign of a sick society. I'm not sure whether younger people have
inherited that attitude; I'll have to check.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by HVS
I still find it unsettling when I encounter what I'd classify as
American-style proclamations of national pride transferred to a
Canadian setting -- flying a large flag in the front yard, say, or
hand-on-heart when singing the national anthem.
I'm pretty sure that WIWAL, we Canadians considered ourselves to be
above such things.

I'm bothered by the same thing in Australia. The Australian flag has
become a right-wing symbol, and flying it in one's yard usually
indicates an extremist viewpoint.

Flying the Union Jack has a similar connotation. Displaying the Welsh
flag doesn't.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by HVS
I still find it unsettling when I encounter what I'd classify as
American-style proclamations of national pride transferred to a
Canadian setting -- flying a large flag in the front yard, say, or
hand-on-heart when singing the national anthem.
I'm pretty sure that WIWAL, we Canadians considered ourselves to be
above such things.

I'm bothered by the same thing in Australia. The Australian flag has
become a right-wing symbol, and flying it in one's yard usually
indicates an extremist viewpoint.

Flying the Union Jack has a similar connotation. Displaying the Welsh
flag doesn't.

I thought flying the English flag was even more extremist.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by HVS
I still find it unsettling when I encounter what I'd classify as
American-style proclamations of national pride transferred to a
Canadian setting -- flying a large flag in the front yard, say, or
hand-on-heart when singing the national anthem.
I'm pretty sure that WIWAL, we Canadians considered ourselves to be
above such things.

I'm bothered by the same thing in Australia. The Australian flag has
become a right-wing symbol, and flying it in one's yard usually
indicates an extremist viewpoint.

Flying the Union Jack has a similar connotation,

and maybe St George's flag even more so.

Displaying the Welsh flag doesn't.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Moylan
I'm bothered by the same thing in Australia. The Australian flag has
become a right-wing symbol, and flying it in one's yard usually
indicates an extremist viewpoint.

Flying the Union Jack has a similar connotation,

and maybe St George's flag even more so.

Displaying the Welsh flag doesn't.

May I conclude that Welsh secessionists are respectable, but English
secessionists are not?

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Moylan
I'm bothered by the same thing in Australia. The Australian flag has
become a right-wing symbol, and flying it in one's yard usually
indicates an extremist viewpoint.

Flying the Union Jack has a similar connotation,

and maybe St George's flag even more so.

Displaying the Welsh flag doesn't.

May I conclude that Welsh secessionists are respectable, but English
secessionists are not?

I know a few people who fly the Welsh flag. I can't recall any of them
even mentioning secession.
Plaid Cymru have had independence as part of its manifesto since its
inception, but it wasn't high on the list of issues they campaigned on
for the recent election.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Moylan
I'm bothered by the same thing in Australia. The Australian flag has
become a right-wing symbol, and flying it in one's yard usually
indicates an extremist viewpoint.

Flying the Union Jack has a similar connotation,

and maybe St George's flag even more so.

Displaying the Welsh flag doesn't.

May I conclude that Welsh secessionists are respectable, but English
secessionists are not?

Welsh secessionists are perceived to be the oppressed, English as theb
oppressors, though that's not how they see themselves.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by HVS
I still find it unsettling when I encounter what I'd classify as
American-style proclamations of national pride transferred to a
Canadian setting -- flying a large flag in the front yard, say, or
hand-on-heart when singing the national anthem.
I'm pretty sure that WIWAL, we Canadians considered ourselves to be
above such things.

I'm bothered by the same thing in Australia. The Australian flag has
become a right-wing symbol, and flying it in one's yard usually
indicates an extremist viewpoint.

Flying the Union Jack has a similar connotation,

and maybe St George's flag even more so.

True, but some don't quite grasp the difference between "UK" and "England".

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Sam Plusnet
True, but some don't quite grasp the difference between "UK" and "England".

In Denmark "England" has traditionally been the name of th UK. That
makes it extra difficult to rememmber the difference.

I learned it at the age of 14. I was going to Scotland to stay with a
Scottish family, and when I wrote that I was looking forward to go to
England, I was promptly and firmly corrected.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Sam Plusnet
True, but some don't quite grasp the difference between "UK" and "England".

In Denmark "England" has traditionally been the name of th UK. That
makes it extra difficult to rememmber the difference.

C.f. "Holland" for "The Netherlands" in most of the UK.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I learned it at the age of 14. I was going to Scotland to stay with a
Scottish family, and when I wrote that I was looking forward to go to
England, I was promptly and firmly corrected.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In Denmark "England" has traditionally been the name of th UK. That
makes it extra difficult to rememmber the difference.

C.f. "Holland" for "The Netherlands" in most of the UK.

It's the same in Denmark. But according to my Dutch-Dutch dictionary,
even Holl ... Dutch people may call the country "Holland". But J.J.
knows more about that.

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In Denmark "England" has traditionally been the name of th UK. That
makes it extra difficult to rememmber the difference.

C.f. "Holland" for "The Netherlands" in most of the UK.

It's the same in Denmark. But according to my Dutch-Dutch dictionary,
even Holl ... Dutch people may call the country "Holland". But J.J.
knows more about that.

Unshockingly, I understand that people from Holland tend to call the country
“Holland” more than other Dutch people do, and this annoys Dutch people who are
not from Holland.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In Denmark "England" has traditionally been the name of th UK. That
makes it extra difficult to rememmber the difference.

C.f. "Holland" for "The Netherlands" in most of the UK.

It's the same in Denmark. But according to my Dutch-Dutch dictionary,
even Holl ... Dutch people may call the country "Holland". But J.J.
knows more about that.

Unshockingly, I understand that people from Holland tend to call the country
“Holland” more than other Dutch people do, and this annoys Dutch people who are
not from Holland.

You can translate that almost in the same words: "Unshockingly, people
from England tend to call the country 'England' more than other British
people do, and this annoys British people who are not from England."

I've omitted "I understand that", because it's clearly true.

[Rich Ulrich]

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Sam Plusnet
True, but some don't quite grasp the difference between "UK" and "England".

In Denmark "England" has traditionally been the name of th UK. That
makes it extra difficult to rememmber the difference.

C.f. "Holland" for "The Netherlands" in most of the UK.

about "The Netherlands" -- the Davis Cup (men's) tennis
competition was carried by the Tennis Channel last week,
and The Netherlands did fairly well.

It is a team competition between nation. The nation moves
forward if it wins both singles matches or wins the doubles
match after splitting the singles. (I noticed again that matches
were called "ties" -- previously discussed here.)

Players wear shirts/jerseys that have the country name
across the back. For The Netherlands, that nation was
"Nederland" with no S at the end.

I presume that THEY prefer that. Google-ngrams have
a strong preference for S, both AmE and BrE. And, since
about the 1970s, Holland is referred to less often than
Netherlands, though the margin is closing. Total frequency
of use is also down in recent decades.

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I learned it at the age of 14. I was going to Scotland to stay with a
Scottish family, and when I wrote that I was looking forward to go to
England, I was promptly and firmly corrected.

[Peter Moylan]

Players wear shirts/jerseys that have the country name across the
back. For The Netherlands, that nation was "Nederland" with no S at
the end.
I presume that THEY prefer that. Google-ngrams have a strong
preference for S, both AmE and BrE.

But that's just the difference between Dutch and English. The country
name has an S in English, but not in Dutch.

You could, in theory, introduce a plural in the Dutch version by saying
"de neder landen" to mean "the low countries", but I have the impression
that "neder" has become as rare in Dutch as "nether" is in English.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan
But that's just the difference between Dutch and English. The country
name has an S in English, but not in Dutch.

Didn't "The netherlands" once refer to more than one country?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
But that's just the difference between Dutch and English. The country
name has an S in English, but not in Dutch.

Didn't "The netherlands" once refer to more than one country?

"The low countries" certainly did (and sometimes does), referring not
only to The Netherlands but also to part of Belgium.

[Phil]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
But that's just the difference between Dutch and English. The country
name has an S in English, but not in Dutch.

Didn't "The netherlands" once refer to more than one country?

"The low countries" certainly did (and sometimes does), referring not
only to The Netherlands but also to part of Belgium.

Also in Dutch, "de Lage Landen":

"Arnout Hauben trekt nog één keer door Nederland en België in het tweede
seizoen van Dwars door de Lage Landen"

<https://www.vpro.nl/programmas/dwars-door-de-lage-landen.html>

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
But that's just the difference between Dutch and English. The
country name has an S in English, but not in Dutch.

Didn't "The netherlands" once refer to more than one country?

True, but I think the expression was "the nether lands", without
collapsing it down to a single word. More recently, the phrase "the low
countries" meant the same thing.

French still has "les Pays Bas" to refer to the single country, although
in the past that phrase probably also included parts of neighbouring
countries.

[charles]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
But that's just the difference between Dutch and English. The country
name has an S in English, but not in Dutch.

Didn't "The netherlands" once refer to more than one country?

Certainly, the 'Low Countries' covered what is now Nethherlands, Belgium
and parts of France. My ancestors came to Scotland from that area in the
15th C.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 09:35:26 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
But that's just the difference between Dutch and English. The country
name has an S in English, but not in Dutch.

Didn't "The netherlands" once refer to more than one country?

The "Low Countries" -- Benelux

As in

Eye-tie, Benelux, Germany and me
That's my Market recipe.

The official name of the country is, however, plural:

Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden, dat bestaat sinds 1813, is een
soevereine staat waarbinnen sinds 2010 vier landen worden
onderscheiden: Nederland, Aruba, Curaçao en Sint Maarten.

The Kingdom of the Netherlands, that has existed since 1813, is a
sovereign state in which four countries have been distinguished since
2010: Nederland, Aruba, Curaçao and Sint Maarten (my translation).

So the KN, like the UK, comprises four countries.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Peter Moylan

Players wear shirts/jerseys that have the country name across the
back. For The Netherlands, that nation was "Nederland" with no S at
the end.
I presume that THEY prefer that. Google-ngrams have a strong
preference for S, both AmE and BrE.

But that's just the difference between Dutch and English. The country
name has an S in English, but not in Dutch.
You could, in theory, introduce a plural in the Dutch version by saying
"de neder landen" to mean "the low countries", but I have the impression
that "neder" has become as rare in Dutch as "nether" is in English.

In English "nether" only survives in ordinary usage in "the nether
regions", meaning genitals. Maybe also "the nether world", for people
who believe that such a place exists.

[Hibou]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In English "nether" only survives in ordinary usage in "the nether
regions", meaning genitals. Maybe also "the nether world", for people
who believe that such a place exists.

It's also in plenty of place names - Netherbury, Nether Wallop, Nether
Alderley, and many more. There's even a Nether End, apparently.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 09:10:57 +0000

Post by Hibou

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In English "nether" only survives in ordinary usage in "the nether
regions", meaning genitals. Maybe also "the nether world", for people
who believe that such a place exists.

It's also in plenty of place names - Netherbury, Nether Wallop, Nether
Alderley, and many more. There's even a Nether End, apparently.

Whew, IRA for once; Nethergate Brewery brews the lovely Old Growler.

[Phil]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Peter Moylan

Players wear shirts/jerseys that have the country name across the
back.  For The Netherlands, that nation was "Nederland" with no S at
the end.
I presume that THEY prefer that.  Google-ngrams have a strong
preference for S, both AmE and BrE.

But that's just the difference between Dutch and English. The country
name has an S in English, but not in Dutch.
You could, in theory, introduce a plural in the Dutch version by saying
"de neder landen" to mean "the low countries", but I have the impression
that "neder" has become as rare in Dutch as "nether" is in English.

In English "nether" only survives in ordinary usage in "the nether
regions", meaning genitals. Maybe also "the nether world", for people
who believe that such a place exists.

I'm told by young persons of my acquaintance that Minecraft has a region
called "The Nether".

[Steve Hayes]

On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 10:00:11 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In English "nether" only survives in ordinary usage in "the nether
regions", meaning genitals. Maybe also "the nether world", for people
who believe that such a place exists.

I'd never heard of the genital meaning, to me "the nether regions"
always meant "underground".

Some of my wife's ancestors, however, came from Nether Seal and others
from Upper Seal in Leicester/Derbyshire.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 10:00:11 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
In English "nether" only survives in ordinary usage in "the nether
regions", meaning genitals. Maybe also "the nether world", for people
who believe that such a place exists.

I'd never heard of the genital meaning, to me "the nether regions"
always meant "underground".
Some of my wife's ancestors, however, came from Nether Seal and others
from Upper Seal in Leicester/Derbyshire.

I couldn't find Upper Seal, but did find Over Seal - near the southern
tip of Derbyshire.
The wikipeida entry on it contained:

"Overseal was said to be the 'population centre of Britain' in 1971 with
an equal number of people living north and south of it, and similarly
for east and west. However, this centre has slowly been moving
southwards and is now claimed by the nearby village of Appleby Parva in
North West Leicestershire, 5 miles (8.0 km) south of the village."

Fame is so fleeting.

[Rich Ulrich]

On Fri, 29 Nov 2024 20:32:31 -0500, Rich Ulrich

Post by Rich Ulrich
Players wear shirts/jerseys that have the country name
across the back. For The Netherlands, that nation was
"Nederland" with no S at the end.

After reading various messages in discussion, I became
aware that the proper PLURAL of Nederland does not
in the the S that I was looking for. Nederlanden is plural.

So, I was not 100% what I saw on the back of the jersey,
except I know it did not end in S. I think I should have
noticed if there had been "-en" but ...

Okay, I turned to Google ngrams to see if Nederland was even
used (in German) -- and it is, more often than Nederlanden.
Moreover, when Wikipedia is asked for Nederlanden, it
turns up Netherlands in re-direction for Nederland, without
mentioning that I supplied the -en form.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan
I'm bothered by the same thing in Australia. The Australian flag has
become a right-wing symbol, and flying it in one's yard usually
indicates an extremist viewpoint.

Right-wing Danes of course use our flag, but so do an awful lot of
ordinary people, so they don't stand out that way. I have read that
foreigners are surprised at how much we use our flag and paper flags.

My farther and his female partner are flying a "vimpel" 24/7. Several
people do that. A flag may only be hoisted during the day. A "vimpel"
can be hoisted at all times.

"Vimpel" is a special Danish version of our flag. I'm not sure that it's
known anywhere else. Picture:

https://www.dahls-flag.dk/vimpel-400-cm

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
I'm bothered by the same thing in Australia. The Australian flag has
become a right-wing symbol, and flying it in one's yard usually
indicates an extremist viewpoint.

Right-wing Danes of course use our flag, but so do an awful lot of
ordinary people, so they don't stand out that way. I have read that
foreigners are surprised at how much we use our flag and paper flags.
My farther and his female partner are flying a "vimpel" 24/7. Several
people do that. A flag may only be hoisted during the day. A "vimpel"
can be hoisted at all times.
"Vimpel" is a special Danish version of our flag. I'm not sure that it's
https://www.dahls-flag.dk/vimpel-400-cm

Thanks for that.

A company in the UK offers (amongst other things) an:

"England Pennant (or vimpel)"

So whilst I had never come across a vimpel, others must know & use the
word in English.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
I'm bothered by the same thing in Australia. The Australian flag has
become a right-wing symbol, and flying it in one's yard usually
indicates an extremist viewpoint.

Right-wing Danes of course use our flag, but so do an awful lot of
ordinary people, so they don't stand out that way. I have read that
foreigners are surprised at how much we use our flag and paper flags.
My farther and his female partner are flying a "vimpel" 24/7. Several
people do that. A flag may only be hoisted during the day. A "vimpel"
can be hoisted at all times.
"Vimpel" is a special Danish version of our flag. I'm not sure that it's
https://www.dahls-flag.dk/vimpel-400-cm

Thanks for that.
"England Pennant (or vimpel)"

..

Yes, I'd call it a very long, thin pennant.

Wiktionary knows the word only in Swedish, and sent
me to

https://svenska.se/saob/?sok=vimpel

which says it is indeed cognate to English "wimple",
the thing a nun wears on her head.

--
Jerry Friedman

--

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
"Vimpel" is a special Danish version of our flag. I'm not sure that it's
https://www.dahls-flag.dk/vimpel-400-cm

Thanks for that.
"England Pennant (or vimpel)"

I tried a Google translate for "vimpel" and got "pennant", but when I
searched for "pennant" and clicked "pictures", I got only small ones
which I wouldn't call "vimpel". But Jerry's description fits.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I tried a Google translate for "vimpel" and got "pennant", but when I
searched for "pennant" and clicked "pictures", I got only small ones
which I wouldn't call "vimpel". But Jerry's description fits.

I might add that a vimpel makes knots on itself because of the wind.
They are quite hard to untie, but you wouldn't want to fly a knotted
vimpel. The result is that the vimpel wears out.

https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/BB1lDjpW.img

I could see that the vimpel is also known in Sweden and Norway.

[lar3ryca]

Post by HVS

Post by Hibou

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Hibou
0.5%? I've long thought that this is a case of a 0.5% tail
wagging a 99.5% dog.

Yes. You're right.
What do you think of this? Emo is a small Canadian town in the
middle of nowhere, on the border with the USA. It has just lost a
case brought by an organization called Borderland Pride, and will
have to pay $15000 "damages" for refusing a demand to declare
June 2020 "Pride Month".

Seems pretty daft.
<https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/ontario-human-rights-tri
bunal-fines-emo-township-for-refusing-pride-proclamation-1.7390134>
But then I'm not keen on this use of the word 'pride'. One can be
proud of one's achievements, I think - a job well done, raising a
child to be a decent human being... - but not of what one just
happens to be - English or Canadian; man or woman; straight or
homosexual; black, white, green (aliens), or orange (ITOMA - it's
that other man again)....

I agree, but you don't have to look very hard to find a whole heap
o' people who are eager to proclaim that they're "proud to be" what
they just happen to be -- English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish/Canadian or
American. (Especially American.)
I still find it unsettling when I encounter what I'd classify as
American-style proclamations of national pride transferred to a
Canadian setting -- flying a large flag in the front yard, say, or
hand-on-heart when singing the national anthem.
I'm pretty sure that WIWAL, we Canadians considered ourselves to be
above such things.

Indeed we were.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Hibou
'Supreme Court to hear case on definition of a woman' -
"Judges at the Supreme Court are to consider how women are defined in
law in a landmark case brought by Scottish campaigners.
It is the culmination of a long-running legal dispute which started with
a relatively niche piece of legislation at the Scottish Parliament, but
which could have big UK-wide implications.
It will set out exactly how the law is meant to treat trans people, and
what it really means to go through the gender recognition process.
And it could have implications for the running of single-sex spaces and
services, and how measures aimed at tackling discrimination will operate
in future [...]
The most recent census found there were 19,990 people in Scotland who
were trans, or had a trans history - under 0.5% of the adult population.
The figure for England and Wales is also around 0.5% - 262,000 people
told the last census that their gender identity and birth sex were
different" -
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgv8v5ge37o>
0.5%? I've long thought that this is a case of a 0.5% tail wagging a
99.5% dog.

I suppose I could do my own research to find out quite what is meant by:

"were trans, or had a trans history"

but I assume the last bit refers to people who made a transition[1] and
later changed their mind.

[1] Or took some steps along that path.

[Janet]

In article <iBo1P.73091$***@fx18.iad>, ***@home.com
says...

Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2024 18:39:10 +0000

Post by Hibou
'Supreme Court to hear case on definition of a woman' -
"Judges at the Supreme Court are to consider how women are defined in
law in a landmark case brought by Scottish campaigners.
It is the culmination of a long-running legal dispute which started with
a relatively niche piece of legislation at the Scottish Parliament, but
which could have big UK-wide implications.
It will set out exactly how the law is meant to treat trans people, and
what it really means to go through the gender recognition process.
And it could have implications for the running of single-sex spaces and
services, and how measures aimed at tackling discrimination will operate
in future [...]
The most recent census found there were 19,990 people in Scotland who
were trans, or had a trans history - under 0.5% of the adult population.
The figure for England and Wales is also around 0.5% - 262,000 people
told the last census that their gender identity and birth sex were
different" -
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgv8v5ge37o>
0.5%? I've long thought that this is a case of a 0.5% tail wagging a
99.5% dog.

"were trans, or had a trans history"
but I assume the last bit refers to people who made a transition[1] and
later changed their mind.
[1] Or took some steps along that path.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detransition


Janet.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Hibou
'Supreme Court to hear case on definition of a woman' -
"Judges at the Supreme Court are to consider how women are defined in
law in a landmark case brought by Scottish campaigners.
It is the culmination of a long-running legal dispute which started with
a relatively niche piece of legislation at the Scottish Parliament, but
which could have big UK-wide implications.
It will set out exactly how the law is meant to treat trans people, and
what it really means to go through the gender recognition process.
And it could have implications for the running of single-sex spaces and
services, and how measures aimed at tackling discrimination will operate
in future [...]
The most recent census found there were 19,990 people in Scotland who
were trans, or had a trans history - under 0.5% of the adult population.
The figure for England and Wales is also around 0.5% - 262,000 people
told the last census that their gender identity and birth sex were
different" -
<https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckgv8v5ge37o>
0.5%? I've long thought that this is a case of a 0.5% tail wagging a
99.5% dog.

Exactly. They are really starting to piss me off.

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2024 13:05:05 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou
'Supreme Court to hear case on definition of a woman' -
"Judges at the Supreme Court are to consider how women are defined in
law in a landmark case brought by Scottish campaigners.

Perhaps they'll settle the question whether it is defined by sex or by
gender.

And whether "male" and "female" are sexes or genders.

Until it's been legally settled and accepted, for me "male" and
"female" will remain sexes and the genders will be "masculine" and
"feminine".

[Bertietaylor]

Sex relates to organs and gender relates to social conditioning.