vale/dale

[Jim Ward]

Is there any different between a vale and a dale?
A vale has a stream while a dale has a river?

[Graphite]

I think there is no difference between them ,because The Merriam-Webster
Dictionary use "vale" to explain "dale" and use "dale" to explain "vale" at
the same time.

Post by Jim Ward
Is there any different between a vale and a dale?
A vale has a stream while a dale has a river?

[Adrian Bailey]

Post by Graphite

Post by Jim Ward
Is there any different between a vale and a dale?
A vale has a stream while a dale has a river?

I think there is no difference between them ,because The Merriam-Webster
Dictionary use "vale" to explain "dale" and use "dale" to explain "vale" at
the same time.

Neither is the standard word for a valley, which is "valley". "Vale" sounds
figurative or poetic.

In British topological usage, valleys tend to be named either "Vale of..."
or "...dale".** Dales tend to be deeper and narrower, and tend to occur in
the hilly North. There being so many of them, the word turns up in
expression like "dalesman" and "up hill and down dale".

**(In Scotland, also "Strath..." or "Glen ...".)

Adrian

[Maria Conlon]

Post by Adrian Bailey

Post by Graphite

Post by Jim Ward
Is there any different between a vale and a dale?
A vale has a stream while a dale has a river?

I think there is no difference between them ,because The
Merriam-Webster Dictionary use "vale" to explain "dale" and use
"dale" to explain "vale" at the same time.

Neither is the standard word for a valley, which is "valley". "Vale"
sounds figurative or poetic.
In British topological usage, valleys tend to be named either "Vale
of..." or "...dale".** Dales tend to be deeper and narrower, and
tend to occur in the hilly North. There being so many of them, the
word turns up in expression like "dalesman" and "up hill and down
dale".
**(In Scotland, also "Strath..." or "Glen ...".)

This thread reminded me of a song I've known since I was a child: The
Church in the Wildwood. Here, we have valley, dale, and vale all in one.

The words and music are at
http://members.tripod.com/~Synergy_2/lyrics/wildwod1.html
or
http://tinyurl.com/59qgq

Maria Conlon

[Qp10qp]

Date: 21/10/04 22:24 PM GMT Daylight Time
Is there any different between a vale and a dale?
A vale has a stream while a dale has a river?

The dales in Britain tend to be in the north, in places once inhabited by
Danes, for whom, I think, the word "dahl" just means "valley". The vales strike
me as more low-lying and larger, like the Vales of Evesham and Glamorgan. I've
been to Evesham several times, and for the life of me can see no sign of a vale
there, certainly nothing as etched as the Yorkshire and Derby Dales. On the
whole, these words aren't used away from named locations. The straightforward
word is "valley".

Peasemarch.

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Qp10qp

Date: 21/10/04 22:24 PM GMT Daylight Time
Is there any different between a vale and a dale?
A vale has a stream while a dale has a river?

The dales in Britain tend to be in the north, in places once inhabited by
Danes, for whom, I think, the word "dahl" just means "valley". The vales strike
me as more low-lying and larger, like the Vales of Evesham and Glamorgan. I've
been to Evesham several times, and for the life of me can see no sign of a vale
there, certainly nothing as etched as the Yorkshire and Derby Dales. On the
whole, these words aren't used away from named locations. The straightforward
word is "valley".

The Vale of the White Horse unfolds itself northwards from the foot of
the Berkshire Downs and ends in ... the river Thames, if not before. So
it's only half a valley, really. North of the Thames is foreign
country, trying to be Cotswolds.

Mind you, I haven't bothered to look at a map.

[Matthew Huntbach]

Post by Qp10qp

Post by Jim Ward
Is there any different between a vale and a dale?
A vale has a stream while a dale has a river?

The dales in Britain tend to be in the north, in places once inhabited by
Danes, for whom, I think, the word "dahl" just means "valley". The vales strike
me as more low-lying and larger, like the Vales of Evesham and Glamorgan.

Yes, difference in placename elements may just be due to the different
dialects of English rather than to any real difference of meaning -
there is a particularly sharp difference in usage between those places
which had Danish influence and those places that did not.

The word "valley", of which "vale" is a variant, comes from the Latin.
I think for that reason it won't be found in old place names. Perhaps
it managed to get into English because it replaced a variery of local
usages. I assume "dell" comes from the same root as "dale". "Combe"
is, I think a southern form - some have suggested it's one of the few
Celtic words to have made it into Old English (see Welsh "cwm") but I
seem to recall there is also a related Germanic word it could have
come from.

Matthew Huntbach

[Mike Lyle]

Matthew Huntbach wrote:
[...]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
"Combe"
is, I think a southern form - some have suggested it's one of the few
Celtic words to have made it into Old English (see Welsh "cwm") but I
seem to recall there is also a related Germanic word it could have
come from.

OED discusses this well. There is, it says, no sign of the similar
Germanic word (meaning things like "bowl") having been used in this
way on the Continent; it points out that if this comes into the
question at all, then for the A-S the "cumb"="bowl" word could have
made it natural for the settlers to adopt a similar form of the local
"cwm". In support, there is a very similar French word for which a
Celtic origin has also been claimed. (Didn't we talk about this a
week or two ago?)

Mike.

[Qp10qp]

Subject: Re: vale/dale
From: "Mike Lyle"
[...]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
"Combe"
is, I think a southern form - some have suggested it's one of the

few

Post by Matthew Huntbach
Celtic words to have made it into Old English (see Welsh "cwm") but

I

Post by Matthew Huntbach
seem to recall there is also a related Germanic word it could have
come from.

OED discusses this well. There is, it says, no sign of the similar
Germanic word (meaning things like "bowl") having been used in this
way on the Continent; it points out that if this comes into the
question at all, then for the A-S the "cumb"="bowl" word could have
made it natural for the settlers to adopt a similar form of the local
"cwm". In support, there is a very similar French word for which a
Celtic origin has also been claimed. (Didn't we talk about this a
week or two ago?)
Mike.

When we did, I put forward the idea that words may have defaulted to the
Anglo-Saxon version when they seemed similar. In the case of "dale", the German
word "Tal/Täler" may have been close enough to the Scandinavian for no one to
have noticed the change or wanted to revert after the Danelaw retreated.

"Combe" is interesting because its presence in Cornwall goes no further than
the far North of Cornwall, near Bude, where the Saxon-named part of Cornwall
ends. Of course, Welsh is somewhat different to Cornish, but "combe" sounds
uncornish to me, whereas "cam" doesn't.

But there is then the German word "kamm" (comb) to take into account. The
Anglo-Saxon word is "camb" :

Camb (o) m. "comb" crest Ep,WW; honeycomb, LPS.

That's how it's given in an online Anglo-Saxon dictionary. So I'm looking for
clues in that about the meaning of "combe".
Yes, combes do have crests, but that isn't their defining feature. I know two
combes quite well, Combe near Bude and Combe Martin in Devon, and both have
thick woods and vegetation - blackthorn and the like - clustering in their
throats: and so that makes me wonder if the "honeycomb" definition might be a
lead.

I wonder, therefore, if the words "comb" and "combe" are connected, and if
"comb" once had a broader meaning than it does now (it was certainly often used
in Shakespeare's day in the sense of "coxcomb", the comb in that case being the
crest on the head rather than the tool for keeping it in order.
But what did "comb" mean for it to be used to describe the crisscross system of
bees' honey? All I can think of is the strange similarity between the German
word "Kamm" for comb and the German word "Kammer" for chamber. Was the honey
made in the bees' "chamber", and was a combe a natural chamber in the landscape
(given that the ones I know are steep-sided and like places walled apart?

Peasemarch.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Qp10qp

Subject: Re: vale/dale
From: "Mike Lyle"
[...]

Post by Matthew Huntbach
"Combe"
is, I think a southern form - some have suggested it's one of the

few

Post by Matthew Huntbach
Celtic words to have made it into Old English (see Welsh "cwm") but

I

Post by Matthew Huntbach
seem to recall there is also a related Germanic word it could have
come from.

OED discusses this well. There is, it says, no sign of the similar
Germanic word (meaning things like "bowl") having been used in this
way on the Continent; it points out that if this comes into the
question at all, then for the A-S the "cumb"="bowl" word could have
made it natural for the settlers to adopt a similar form of the local
"cwm". In support, there is a very similar French word for which a
Celtic origin has also been claimed. (Didn't we talk about this a
week or two ago?)
Mike.

When we did, I put forward the idea that words may have defaulted

to

Post by Qp10qp
the Anglo-Saxon version when they seemed similar. In the case of
"dale", the German word "Tal/Täler" may have been close enough to

the

Post by Qp10qp
Scandinavian for no one to have noticed the change or wanted to
revert after the Danelaw retreated.

This seems to be pretty much the official line on what actually
happened. I'm sorry, I may not have seen that particular message at
the time (as I sometimes bitch, OE doesn't make it easy to be sure
you've seen all contributions to a thread).

Post by Qp10qp
"Combe" is interesting because its presence in Cornwall goes no
further than the far North of Cornwall, near Bude, where the
Saxon-named part of Cornwall ends. Of course, Welsh is somewhat
different to Cornish, but "combe" sounds uncornish to me, whereas
"cam" doesn't.

But of course "combe" names are found nation-wide, albeit in
disguised form -- see Cumwhinton in Norse Cumbria (which means
Wales!), and Cundall in Yorkshire.

Post by Qp10qp
But there is then the German word "kamm" (comb) to take into

account.

Post by Qp10qp
Camb (o) m. "comb" crest Ep,WW; honeycomb, LPS.
That's how it's given in an online Anglo-Saxon dictionary. So I'm
looking for clues in that about the meaning of "combe".
Yes, combes do have crests, but that isn't their defining feature.

I

Post by Qp10qp
know two combes quite well, Combe near Bude and Combe Martin in
Devon, and both have thick woods and vegetation - blackthorn and

the

Post by Qp10qp
like - clustering in their throats: and so that makes me wonder if
the "honeycomb" definition might be a lead.
I wonder, therefore, if the words "comb" and "combe" are connected,
and if "comb" once had a broader meaning than it does now (it was
certainly often used in Shakespeare's day in the sense of

"coxcomb",

Post by Qp10qp
the comb in that case being the crest on the head rather than the
tool for keeping it in order.
But what did "comb" mean for it to be used to describe the

crisscross

Post by Qp10qp
system of bees' honey? All I can think of is the strange similarity
between the German word "Kamm" for comb and the German word

"Kammer"

Post by Qp10qp
for chamber. Was the honey made in the bees' "chamber", and was a
combe a natural chamber in the landscape (given that the ones I

know

Post by Qp10qp
are steep-sided and like places walled apart?

"Comb" and "coombe/combe" aren't related: "comb" comes from the -a-
end, while "coombe" comes from the -u- side. A comb has toothy or
bristly things. OED suggests that the "honeycomb" kind, while a
little puzzling given that no other European language treats it the
same way, may be so called because of the way it hangs in rows. We
need to forget hives with frames here: I don't know if you've ever
seen a wild bees' stores, but they do seem to build something rather
like a series of irregular longways stalactites (can that possibly
have made sense?). There seems to be no link to the idea of chambers.

I don't see anything wrong with the OED line on "coombe" and "cwm"; I
think I sketched it fairly.

Mike.

[Qp10qp]

Subject: Re: vale/dale
From: "Mike Lyle"

Post by Qp10qp
"Combe" is interesting because its presence in Cornwall goes no
further than the far North of Cornwall, near Bude, where the
Saxon-named part of Cornwall ends. Of course, Welsh is somewhat
different to Cornish, but "combe" sounds uncornish to me, whereas
"cam" doesn't.

But of course "combe" names are found nation-wide, albeit in
disguised form -- see Cumwhinton in Norse Cumbria (which means
Wales!), and Cundall in Yorkshire.

I didn't put what I meant very well. I meant that those "combe" names stop once
you get into true Cornwall - odd, if it is a Celtic word (but it may be covered
by "cam") - but, yes, of course, they crop up everywhere else in England.

"Comb" and "coombe/combe" aren't related: "comb" comes from the -a-
end, while "coombe" comes from the -u- side.

My point was just that where words from different languages sounded similar,
they might have conflated.

I can't help feeling that "comb" and "combe" are too similar not to have been
connected together in peoples' minds, albeit after the etymological fact,
particularly as the Cornish, at least, pronounce "comb" exactly the same way as
"combe". (And I believe the West Country accent reached much further across
England than it does now, and so that may have been a widespread phenomenon.)

Peasemarch.

[Pat Durkin]

Post by Qp10qp

Subject: Re: vale/dale
From: "Mike Lyle"

Post by Qp10qp
"Combe" is interesting because its presence in Cornwall goes no
further than the far North of Cornwall, near Bude, where the
Saxon-named part of Cornwall ends. Of course, Welsh is somewhat
different to Cornish, but "combe" sounds uncornish to me, whereas
"cam" doesn't.

But of course "combe" names are found nation-wide, albeit in
disguised form -- see Cumwhinton in Norse Cumbria (which means
Wales!), and Cundall in Yorkshire.

I didn't put what I meant very well. I meant that those "combe" names stop once
you get into true Cornwall - odd, if it is a Celtic word (but it may be covered
by "cam") - but, yes, of course, they crop up everywhere else in England.

"Comb" and "coombe/combe" aren't related: "comb" comes from the -a-
end, while "coombe" comes from the -u- side.

My point was just that where words from different languages sounded similar,
they might have conflated.
I can't help feeling that "comb" and "combe" are too similar not to have been
connected together in peoples' minds, albeit after the etymological fact,
particularly as the Cornish, at least, pronounce "comb" exactly the same way as
"combe". (And I believe the West Country accent reached much further across
England than it does now, and so that may have been a widespread phenomenon.)

M-W Online has the root for "comb" meaning "tooth", from the Greek
_gomphos_.

Seems to me that our word "culminate" M-W ONline:

"Etymology: Medieval Latin culminatus, past participle of culminare, from
Late Latin, to crown, from Latin culmin-, culmen top -- more at HILL"

may have the same root, but the switch from Greek to Latin in the
etymologies is offputting. Maybe I am totally offbase on this.

(I started this reply after thinking of how the Spanish "Es el colmo" (That
is the limit") resembles "comb, combe")

[Areff]

Post by Pat Durkin
M-W Online has the root for "comb" meaning "tooth", from the Greek
_gomphos_.
"Etymology: Medieval Latin culminatus, past participle of culminare, from
Late Latin, to crown, from Latin culmin-, culmen top -- more at HILL"
may have the same root, but the switch from Greek to Latin in the
etymologies is offputting. Maybe I am totally offbase on this.

Your last statement is correct, sir; you are engaging in crazy talk.
"Culmen" is derived from Proto-Indo-European *kel- 'to be prominent;
hill' and is a cognate of 'hill', 'holm', 'excel', 'colophon', 'column',
'colonel'.

Moreover, you misunderstood M-W I think -- "comb" is a cognate of Greek
_gomphos_ but is not *from* Greek -- it's from a Germanic root. The
Proto-Indo-European root there is *gembh- "tooth, nail". Other cognates
are 'oakum', 'unkempt' and possibly (by way of Latin) 'gem'.

See the online AHD at bartleby.com for this sort of thing.

--

[Pat Durkin]

Post by Areff

Post by Pat Durkin
M-W Online has the root for "comb" meaning "tooth", from the Greek
_gomphos_.
"Etymology: Medieval Latin culminatus, past participle of culminare, from
Late Latin, to crown, from Latin culmin-, culmen top -- more at HILL"
may have the same root, but the switch from Greek to Latin in the
etymologies is offputting. Maybe I am totally offbase on this.

Your last statement is correct, sir; you are engaging in crazy talk.
"Culmen" is derived from Proto-Indo-European *kel- 'to be prominent;
hill' and is a cognate of 'hill', 'holm', 'excel', 'colophon', 'column',
'colonel'.
Moreover, you misunderstood M-W I think -- "comb" is a cognate of Greek
_gomphos_ but is not *from* Greek -- it's from a Germanic root. The
Proto-Indo-European root there is *gembh- "tooth, nail". Other cognates
are 'oakum', 'unkempt' and possibly (by way of Latin) 'gem'.
See the online AHD at bartleby.com for this sort of thing.

Why would I want to look it up, when you can so suck sinktly summarize it
for me?

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff

Post by Pat Durkin
M-W Online has the root for "comb" meaning "tooth", from the

Greek

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff

Post by Pat Durkin
_gomphos_.
"Etymology: Medieval Latin culminatus, past participle of
culminare, from Late Latin, to crown, from Latin culmin-, culmen
top -- more at HILL"
may have the same root, but the switch from Greek to Latin in the
etymologies is offputting. Maybe I am totally offbase on this.

Your last statement is correct, sir; you are engaging in crazy talk.
"Culmen" is derived from Proto-Indo-European *kel- 'to be

prominent;

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff
hill' and is a cognate of 'hill', 'holm', 'excel', 'colophon',
'column', 'colonel'.
Moreover, you misunderstood M-W I think -- "comb" is a cognate of
Greek _gomphos_ but is not *from* Greek -- it's from a Germanic
root. The Proto-Indo-European root there is *gembh- "tooth, nail".
Other cognates are 'oakum', 'unkempt' and possibly (by way of

Latin)

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff
'gem'.
See the online AHD at bartleby.com for this sort of thing.

Why would I want to look it up, when you can so suck sinktly
summarize it for me?

Because you can't trust no bastard round here.

Mike.

[Robin Bignall]

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 21:09:08 +0100, "Mike Lyle"

Post by Areff

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff

Post by Pat Durkin
M-W Online has the root for "comb" meaning "tooth", from the

Greek

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff

Post by Pat Durkin
_gomphos_.
"Etymology: Medieval Latin culminatus, past participle of
culminare, from Late Latin, to crown, from Latin culmin-, culmen
top -- more at HILL"
may have the same root, but the switch from Greek to Latin in the
etymologies is offputting. Maybe I am totally offbase on this.

Your last statement is correct, sir; you are engaging in crazy

talk.

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff
"Culmen" is derived from Proto-Indo-European *kel- 'to be

prominent;

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff
hill' and is a cognate of 'hill', 'holm', 'excel', 'colophon',
'column', 'colonel'.
Moreover, you misunderstood M-W I think -- "comb" is a cognate of
Greek _gomphos_ but is not *from* Greek -- it's from a Germanic
root. The Proto-Indo-European root there is *gembh- "tooth, nail".
Other cognates are 'oakum', 'unkempt' and possibly (by way of

Latin)

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff
'gem'.
See the online AHD at bartleby.com for this sort of thing.

Why would I want to look it up, when you can so suck sinktly
summarize it for me?

Because you can't trust no bastard round here.

Gosh! Who(m) got out of bed on the wrong side this morning?

[don groves]

Post by Areff

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff

Post by Pat Durkin
M-W Online has the root for "comb" meaning "tooth", from the

Greek

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff

Post by Pat Durkin
_gomphos_.
"Etymology: Medieval Latin culminatus, past participle of
culminare, from Late Latin, to crown, from Latin culmin-, culmen
top -- more at HILL"
may have the same root, but the switch from Greek to Latin in the
etymologies is offputting. Maybe I am totally offbase on this.

Your last statement is correct, sir; you are engaging in crazy

talk.

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff
"Culmen" is derived from Proto-Indo-European *kel- 'to be

prominent;

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff
hill' and is a cognate of 'hill', 'holm', 'excel', 'colophon',
'column', 'colonel'.
Moreover, you misunderstood M-W I think -- "comb" is a cognate of
Greek _gomphos_ but is not *from* Greek -- it's from a Germanic
root. The Proto-Indo-European root there is *gembh- "tooth, nail".
Other cognates are 'oakum', 'unkempt' and possibly (by way of

Latin)

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Areff
'gem'.
See the online AHD at bartleby.com for this sort of thing.

Why would I want to look it up, when you can so suck sinktly
summarize it for me?

Because you can't trust no bastard round here.

And the bastards square, them neither?