Discussion:
A misleading headline on a Swedish news page
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Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-07 06:30:58 UTC
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I happened to read a Swedish webpage with news. One headline was:

Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar

Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11 september-prisoners

I would have written:

Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Peter Moylan
2024-11-07 07:08:43 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11 september-prisoners
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
I wouldn't. I keep having to tell myself that it didn't happen on the
9th of November. It's less confusing to name the month.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-07 07:21:02 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11 september-prisoners
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
I wouldn't. I keep having to tell myself that it didn't happen on the
9th of November. It's less confusing to name the month.
The problem is that it reads as if there are 11 prisoners. But I am
convinced that it's the date. Maybe you'd prefer:

Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with september-11-prisoners

PS. To me "nine eleven" is just a fixed expression.

PPS. When thinking about "eleven" I am reminded of the YouTube with the
two Scotsmen (?) in the elevator.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-07 08:12:31 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11 september-prisoners
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
I wouldn't. I keep having to tell myself that it didn't happen on the
9th of November. It's less confusing to name the month.
The problem is that it reads as if there are 11 prisoners. But I am
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with september-11-prisoners
PS. To me "nine eleven" is just a fixed expression.
Not in France it isn't. We say "onze septembre".
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
PPS. When thinking about "eleven" I am reminded of the YouTube with the
two Scotsmen (?) in the elevator.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
wugi
2024-11-10 02:42:41 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11 september-prisoners
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
I wouldn't. I keep having to tell myself that it didn't happen on the
9th of November. It's less confusing to name the month.
The problem is that it reads as if there are 11 prisoners. But I am
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with september-11-prisoners
As it is used as one word, in Dutch it ought to be written together,
using no spaces and a minimum of hyphens, so sth like
"11-septemberprisoners".
Of course many writers won't comply with this and leave spaces. That's
called Engelse ziekte, English disease ;)
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
PS. To me "nine eleven" is just a fixed expression.
Yes, but besides "the attacks of 11 september" in other languages.
--
guido wugi
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-11 21:22:27 UTC
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Post by wugi
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11 september-prisoners
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
I wouldn't. I keep having to tell myself that it didn't happen on the
9th of November. It's less confusing to name the month.
The problem is that it reads as if there are 11 prisoners. But I am
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with september-11-prisoners
As it is used as one word, in Dutch it ought to be written together,
using no spaces and a minimum of hyphens, so sth like
"11-septemberprisoners".
Of course many writers won't comply with this and leave spaces. That's
called Engelse ziekte, English disease ;)
'Dutch Disease' would be a better name.

For those who don't know what this is all about:
Dutch has had one spelling reform too many.
A committee of 'language experts'
(mostly professors with nothing better to do)
ran wild, and started to invent all kinds of rules
for things that didn't need ruling on.
All in secret, without any feedback.
When the general public learned about it the new dictionaries
with the new rules in them had already been printed,
so there was no practical way back.

Jan
(who deliberately ignores some of those rules,
like many others do, including even some major newspapers)
Post by wugi
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
PS. To me "nine eleven" is just a fixed expression.
Yes, but besides "the attacks of 11 september" in other languages.
Aidan Kehoe
2024-11-07 07:25:48 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11 september-prisoners
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
I wouldn't. I keep having to tell myself that it didn't happen on the 9th of
November. It's less confusing to name the month.
Still, in this case it reads initially like there were eleven prisoners, using
Bertel’s approach avoids that.
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
Mark Brader
2024-11-07 08:49:45 UTC
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DubbelvÀndning: Domare godkÀnner avtal med 11 september-fångar
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11 september-prisoners
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. And "turn" isn't
the best way to say that part either.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "These days UNIX isn't very UNIX-like"
***@vex.net -- Doug Gwyn
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-07 09:19:36 UTC
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Post by Mark Brader
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. And "turn" isn't
the best way to say that part either.
No, I wasn't sure which word to use.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
jerryfriedman
2024-11-07 14:24:36 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Mark Brader
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. And "turn" isn't
the best way to say that part either.
No, I wasn't sure which word to use.
Reversal?

--
Jerry Friedman

--
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-07 14:44:45 UTC
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Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Mark Brader
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. And "turn" isn't
the best way to say that part either.
No, I wasn't sure which word to use.
Reversal?
That is one option. In Danish we use a word from the sailor world which
describes a clumsy way to change direction - often used about
politicians.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-11-07 15:57:05 UTC
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On Thu, 7 Nov 2024 15:44:45 +0100
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Mark Brader
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. And "turn" isn't
the best way to say that part either.
No, I wasn't sure which word to use.
Reversal?
That is one option. In Danish we use a word from the sailor world which
describes a clumsy way to change direction - often used about
politicians.
About-turn?
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
LionelEdwards
2024-11-07 16:02:38 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Thu, 7 Nov 2024 15:44:45 +0100
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Mark Brader
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. And "turn" isn't
the best way to say that part either.
No, I wasn't sure which word to use.
Reversal?
That is one option. In Danish we use a word from the sailor world which
describes a clumsy way to change direction - often used about
politicians.
About-turn?
U-turn?
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-07 19:33:01 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Mark Brader
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. And "turn" isn't
the best way to say that part either.
No, I wasn't sure which word to use.
Reversal?
That is one option. In Danish we use a word from the sailor world which
describes a clumsy way to change direction - often used about
politicians.
About-turn?
The Danish word is "ko-vending" (hyphen for English readers). The
ethymology is uncertain, but several sources relate it to "cow-turn"
because a cow is clumsy. The sailing meaning describes the turn where
the boom swings dangerously from one side to the other.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Snidely
2024-11-07 22:47:49 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Mark Brader
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. And "turn" isn't
the best way to say that part either.
No, I wasn't sure which word to use.
Reversal?
That is one option. In Danish we use a word from the sailor world which
describes a clumsy way to change direction - often used about
politicians.
About-turn?
The Danish word is "ko-vending" (hyphen for English readers). The
ethymology is uncertain, but several sources relate it to "cow-turn"
because a cow is clumsy. The sailing meaning describes the turn where
the boom swings dangerously from one side to the other.
Well, that's a gybe AND it's a mistake (almost always), but so far as I
know, it's just called an accidental gybe.

/dps
--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean
Aidan Kehoe
2024-11-08 07:05:50 UTC
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[...] Well, that's a gybe AND it's a mistake (almost always), but so far as
I know, it's just called an accidental gybe.
Something learned today, thanks for that. Here’s an extract from the OED2
entry:

gybe (dʒaɪb), v. Naut. Forms: 7 gibe, 8­9 jibe, 7­ gybe. See also jib v.
[app. a. Du. gijben (now gijpen); but the initial (dʒ) is unexplained. Cf. G. gieben, giepen (from Du. or LG.), Da. gibbe, Sw. gippa, gipa.]
1. a. intr. Of a fore-and-aft sail or its boom: To swing from one side of the vessel to the other.
1693 Minutes Prov. Counc. Pennsylv. I. (1852) 377 Ned Burch..brought the saill to gybe.
1699 Dickenson Jrnl. Trav. 2 Our Master being on the Quarter-Deck, our Boom~gibing knocked him down.
[1719 Gib: see jib v.]
1873 G. C. Davies Mount. & Mere xvi. 133 When the sails gybed one could hear the deep, thunderlike flaps of the brown canvas.
1885 ‘Naseby’ Oaks & Birches I. 188 The mainsail had no boom, therefore it was more likely to jibe.
b. trans. To cause (a fore-and-aft sail) to swing from one side of the vessel to the other.
[1776, 1834, etc.: see jib v.]
1899 Daily News 4 Oct. 3/2 Columbia..gybed her mainsail to port.
2. intr. To alter the course of a boat when the wind is aft so that her boom-sails gybe. Said also of the boat itself; also to gybe over. Also trans. with the boat as object; also, to sail round (any object) by gybing.
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-08 08:13:45 UTC
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Post by Aidan Kehoe
[...] Well, that's a gybe AND it's a mistake (almost always), but so far as
I know, it's just called an accidental gybe.
Something learned today, thanks for that. Here’s an extract from the OED2
gybe (dʒaɪb), v. Naut. Forms: 7 gibe, 8­9 jibe, 7­ gybe. See also jib v.
[app. a. Du. gijben (now gijpen); but the initial (dʒ) is unexplained. Cf. G. gieben, giepen (from Du. or LG.), Da. gibbe, Sw. gippa, gipa.]
Thanks. Now I understand the word. "Gibbe" (verb) is modern Danish about
a sudden movement when surprised. A related word is "kippe" which mostly
(only?) today is used about a greeting with a flag, but also has been
used about a manouvre with a horsedrawn waggon.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
lar3ryca
2024-11-08 21:35:42 UTC
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Post by Aidan Kehoe
[...] Well, that's a gybe AND it's a mistake (almost always), but so far as
I know, it's just called an accidental gybe.
Something learned today, thanks for that. Here’s an extract from the OED2
gybe (dʒaɪb), v. Naut. Forms: 7 gibe, 8­9 jibe, 7­ gybe. See also jib v.
[app. a. Du. gijben (now gijpen); but the initial (dʒ) is unexplained. Cf. G. gieben, giepen (from Du. or LG.), Da. gibbe, Sw. gippa, gipa.]
1. a. intr. Of a fore-and-aft sail or its boom: To swing from one side of the vessel to the other.
1693 Minutes Prov. Counc. Pennsylv. I. (1852) 377 Ned Burch..brought the saill to gybe.
1699 Dickenson Jrnl. Trav. 2 Our Master being on the Quarter-Deck, our Boom~gibing knocked him down.
[1719 Gib: see jib v.]
1873 G. C. Davies Mount. & Mere xvi. 133 When the sails gybed one could hear the deep, thunderlike flaps of the brown canvas.
1885 ‘Naseby’ Oaks & Birches I. 188 The mainsail had no boom, therefore it was more likely to jibe.
b. trans. To cause (a fore-and-aft sail) to swing from one side of the vessel to the other.
[1776, 1834, etc.: see jib v.]
1899 Daily News 4 Oct. 3/2 Columbia..gybed her mainsail to port.
Currently, the following one is correct. Some of the others do not
differentiate between the boom swinging from one side to the other when
the wind is aft or forward. When the wind is forward, the boom will
swing across when you tack tack.
Post by Aidan Kehoe
2. intr. To alter the course of a boat when the wind is aft so that her boom-sails gybe. Said also of the boat itself; also to gybe over. Also trans. with the boat as object; also, to sail round (any object) by gybing.
--
I took the shell off my racing snail to speed him up,
But it only made him more sluggish.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-08 08:23:36 UTC
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Post by Snidely
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Mark Brader
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. And "turn" isn't
the best way to say that part either.
No, I wasn't sure which word to use.
Reversal?
That is one option. In Danish we use a word from the sailor world which
describes a clumsy way to change direction - often used about
politicians.
About-turn?
The Danish word is "ko-vending" (hyphen for English readers). The
ethymology is uncertain, but several sources relate it to "cow-turn"
because a cow is clumsy. The sailing meaning describes the turn where
the boom swings dangerously from one side to the other.
Well, that's a gybe AND it's a mistake (almost always), but so far as I
know, it's just called an accidental gybe.
You remind me of a word that I heard often when at a school in which
rowing was a major sport, without ever being quite sure what it meant:
ryepeck.

I wasn't fond of rowing but if I didn't want to play cricket (and I
didn't) I had to row. Curiously, though, I rowed in an eight in my
first year at university, quite voluntarily. Maybe my memory is faulty
and I didn't dislike rowing as much as I tend to think.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Ken Blake
2024-11-08 16:29:25 UTC
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Post by Snidely
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Mark Brader
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. And "turn" isn't
the best way to say that part either.
No, I wasn't sure which word to use.
Reversal?
That is one option. In Danish we use a word from the sailor world which
describes a clumsy way to change direction - often used about
politicians.
About-turn?
The Danish word is "ko-vending" (hyphen for English readers). The
ethymology is uncertain, but several sources relate it to "cow-turn"
because a cow is clumsy. The sailing meaning describes the turn where
the boom swings dangerously from one side to the other.
Well, that's a gybe AND it's a mistake (almost always), but so far as I
know, it's just called an accidental gybe.
It's often a dangerous mistake, but far from always. Yes, when it's a
mistake, it's called an "accidental gybe" or "accidental jibe," but if
it's done properly it's the correct way, when running before the wind,
to change direction to the opposite tack. And changing direction to
the opposite tack when running is often necessary.

The mistake, the dangerous way, is to change direction and let the
boom swing rapidly through almost 180 degrees where it can hit you on
the head, and sometimes even capsize the boat. The correct way is to
haul in the main sheet (the line that controls the boom) as far as
possible just before chagrining direction, then quickly let it out
after changing direction, when the boom has moved through just a few
degrees. That way, the boom's movement is a short distance and not
violent.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-08 18:44:49 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
Post by Snidely
Well, that's a gybe AND it's a mistake (almost always), but so far as I
know, it's just called an accidental gybe.
It's often a dangerous mistake, but far from always. Yes, when it's a
mistake, it's called an "accidental gybe" or "accidental jibe," but if
it's done properly it's the correct way, when running before the wind,
to change direction to the opposite tack. And changing direction to
the opposite tack when running is often necessary.
I was confused about gybe and tack because a Danish article said that a
gybe was a mistake, and you'd always prefer a tack. But that made no
sense because the boat is in the opposite direction (related to the
wind) in the two cases. Knowing little about sailing, I thought that I
didn't know enough to understand.

Today I found a video that in detail explained the gybe (how to do it
safely), and that made sense. Another video explained the tack. There's
nothing wrong with a gybe (and it's not clumsy), but you have to be
careful to avoid danger.
Post by Ken Blake
The mistake, the dangerous way, is to change direction and let the
boom swing rapidly through almost 180 degrees where it can hit you on
the head, and sometimes even capsize the boat. The correct way is to
haul in the main sheet (the line that controls the boom) as far as
possible just before chagrining direction, then quickly let it out
after changing direction, when the boom has moved through just a few
degrees. That way, the boom's movement is a short distance and not
violent.
That was precisely what they did in the video, and they had one guy
calling the commands to avoid confusion.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Ken Blake
2024-11-09 15:50:37 UTC
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On Fri, 8 Nov 2024 19:44:49 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Snidely
Well, that's a gybe AND it's a mistake (almost always), but so far as I
know, it's just called an accidental gybe.
It's often a dangerous mistake, but far from always. Yes, when it's a
mistake, it's called an "accidental gybe" or "accidental jibe," but if
it's done properly it's the correct way, when running before the wind,
to change direction to the opposite tack. And changing direction to
the opposite tack when running is often necessary.
I was confused about gybe and tack because a Danish article said that a
gybe was a mistake, and you'd always prefer a tack. But that made no
sense because the boat is in the opposite direction (related to the
wind) in the two cases. Knowing little about sailing, I thought that I
didn't know enough to understand.
Yes, you'd always prefer tacking, but...

... assume the wind is coming from the south, 180 degrees from the
north and you are sailing (running) at 5 degrees. The boom is over the
left side of the boat, so you are on in the starboard tack. You round
an obstacle and now need to change direction to somewhere between 270
and 355 degrees and be on the port tack, with the boom over the
starboard side. Yes, you can tack, but you would have to turn to the
right and go through about 265 degrees of turning and tack when you
reached 180 degrees.

Yes, you can do that, but it's a waste of time and impractical. If
you are racing and do that, it's almost guaranteed to make you come in
last. You have to jibe.
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Today I found a video that in detail explained the gybe (how to do it
safely), and that made sense. Another video explained the tack. There's
nothing wrong with a gybe (and it's not clumsy), but you have to be
careful to avoid danger.
Yes.
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Ken Blake
The mistake, the dangerous way, is to change direction and let the
boom swing rapidly through almost 180 degrees where it can hit you on
the head, and sometimes even capsize the boat. The correct way is to
haul in the main sheet (the line that controls the boom) as far as
possible just before chagrining direction, then quickly let it out
after changing direction, when the boom has moved through just a few
degrees. That way, the boom's movement is a short distance and not
violent.
That was precisely what they did in the video, and they had one guy
calling the commands to avoid confusion.
Yes, the helmsman. It's the same with tacking ("ready about," "hard
alee"). With jibing, it's "ready to jibe," jibe ho."

But it's not just to avoid confusion. It's a matter of what the crew
must do. Especially when tacking, the commands are necessary. In a
small boat. if the wind is strong, everyone needs to change what side
of the boat they are sitting on when he says "hard alee." If they
don't, their weight will be on the downside (leeward side) of the boat
and capsizing is likely. And in jibing, they may have to duck their
heads. And either way, in a larger boat, the crew may have to operate
winches to handle the jib sheet as the jib moves to the other side of
the boat.
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-11 21:22:28 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Thu, 7 Nov 2024 15:44:45 +0100
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Mark Brader
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. And "turn" isn't
the best way to say that part either.
No, I wasn't sure which word to use.
Reversal?
That is one option. In Danish we use a word from the sailor world which
describes a clumsy way to change direction - often used about
politicians.
About-turn?
Dutch has the idiom 'het over een andere boeg gooien',
corresponding to English (with less suggestion of abruptness)
'to take a different tack' (so to try a different approach)

Jan
Snidely
2024-11-07 19:36:21 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Mark Brader
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. And "turn" isn't
the best way to say that part either.
No, I wasn't sure which word to use.
Reversal?
That is one option. In Danish we use a word from the sailor world which
describes a clumsy way to change direction - often used about
politicians.
Neither tack nor gybe are required to be clumsy, and are normal parts
of fore-and-aft sailing. Square riggers don't tack, they wear about.

/dps
--
"That’s where I end with this kind of conversation: Language is
crucial, and yet not the answer."
Jonathan Rosa, sociocultural and linguistic anthropologist,
Stanford.,2020
Hibou
2024-11-08 09:41:40 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11 september-prisoners
Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. [...]
Well, yes, though that format has a Chinese Communist look to me. A long
time ago, and again rather later, I read a book about the Cultural
Revolution called 'Red Guard' (1972) by Ken Ling. Almost everything in
it seemed to be named after a date - the 8-30 Theatre Company, that sort
of thing.

I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
Hibou
2024-11-08 09:52:46 UTC
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Post by Hibou
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. [...]
Well, yes, though that format has a Chinese Communist look to me. A long
time ago, and again rather later, I read a book about the Cultural
Revolution called 'Red Guard' (1972) by Ken Ling. Almost everything in
it seemed to be named after a date - the 8-30 Theatre Company, that sort
of thing.
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
And for dates: Remembrance Sunday, Bonfire Night, Burns Night, D-Day,
Christmas Day (not 12/25), Hogmanay....
Hibou
2024-11-08 09:54:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. [...]
Well, yes, though that format has a Chinese Communist look to me. A
long time ago, and again rather later, I read a book about the
Cultural Revolution called 'Red Guard' (1972) by Ken Ling. Almost
everything in it seemed to be named after a date - the 8-30 Theatre
Company, that sort of thing.
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it
something like the Twin Towers attack.
And for dates: Remembrance Sunday, Bonfire Night, Burns Night, D-Day,
Christmas Day (not 12/25), Hogmanay....
For those of a foreign disposition, I point out that Bonfire Night and
Burns Night are not connected.
Sam Plusnet
2024-11-08 18:28:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. [...]
Well, yes, though that format has a Chinese Communist look to me. A
long time ago, and again rather later, I read a book about the
Cultural Revolution called 'Red Guard' (1972) by Ken Ling. Almost
everything in it seemed to be named after a date - the 8-30 Theatre
Company, that sort of thing.
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it
something like the Twin Towers attack.
And for dates: Remembrance Sunday, Bonfire Night, Burns Night, D-Day,
Christmas Day (not 12/25), Hogmanay....
For those of a foreign disposition, I point out that Bonfire Night and
Burns Night are not connected.
Unless you work in a hospital, sadly.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Moylan
2024-11-08 23:41:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
For those of a foreign disposition, I point out that Bonfire Night and
Burns Night are not connected.
Is there a Browning Night?
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-11-09 22:46:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 9 Nov 2024 10:41:53 +1100
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Hibou
For those of a foreign disposition, I point out that Bonfire Night and
Burns Night are not connected.
Is there a Browning Night?
There's a clock tower in Ledbury in her honour.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-08 10:18:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. [...]
Well, yes, though that format has a Chinese Communist look to me. A
long time ago, and again rather later, I read a book about the Cultural
Revolution called 'Red Guard' (1972) by Ken Ling. Almost everything in
it seemed to be named after a date - the 8-30 Theatre Company, that
sort of thing.
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
And for dates: Remembrance Sunday, Bonfire Night,
    Remember, remember!
    The fifth of November,
    The Gunpowder treason and plot;
    I know of no reason
    Why the Gunpowder treason
    Should ever be forgot!

That seems to have a date in it.
 
Post by Hibou
Burns Night, D-Day, Christmas Day (not 12/25), Hogmanay....
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Hibou
2024-11-08 11:13:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
And for dates: Remembrance Sunday, Bonfire Night,
    Remember, remember!
    The fifth of November,
    The Gunpowder treason and plot;
    I know of no reason
    Why the Gunpowder treason
    Should ever be forgot!
That seems to have a date in it.
Yes, each day has an associated date, but the date isn't used to name it.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
 Burns Night, D-Day, Christmas Day (not 12/25), Hogmanay....
Phil
2024-11-08 12:30:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
       Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar
       Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11
september-prisoners
       Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. [...]
Well, yes, though that format has a Chinese Communist look to me. A long
time ago, and again rather later, I read a book about the Cultural
Revolution called 'Red Guard' (1972) by Ken Ling. Almost everything in
it seemed to be named after a date - the 8-30 Theatre Company, that sort
of thing.
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
The only one I can think of is 7/7, and that only by analogy with 9/11.
--
Phil B
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-08 13:49:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Phil
Post by Hibou
       Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar
       Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11 september-prisoners
       Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. [...]
Well, yes, though that format has a Chinese Communist look to me. A
long time ago, and again rather later, I read a book about the Cultural
Revolution called 'Red Guard' (1972) by Ken Ling. Almost everything in
it seemed to be named after a date - the 8-30 Theatre Company, that
sort of thing.
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
The only one I can think of is 7/7, and that only by analogy with 9/11.
More convenient, though, as it doesn't matter whether you put the 7
first or the 7 first.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Steve Hayes
2024-11-09 04:25:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
       Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar
       Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11
september-prisoners
       Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. [...]
Well, yes, though that format has a Chinese Communist look to me. A long
time ago, and again rather later, I read a book about the Cultural
Revolution called 'Red Guard' (1972) by Ken Ling. Almost everything in
it seemed to be named after a date - the 8-30 Theatre Company, that sort
of thing.
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
It seems to be a feature of Spanish and Portuguese to name streets
after the dates on which events took place, rather than the events
themselves.

Perhaps that has influenced AmE to some extent -- don't they have
something called Juneteenth over there?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Aidan Kehoe
2024-11-09 08:56:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Hibou
       Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar
       Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11
september-prisoners
       Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. [...]
Well, yes, though that format has a Chinese Communist look to me. A long
time ago, and again rather later, I read a book about the Cultural
Revolution called 'Red Guard' (1972) by Ken Ling. Almost everything in
it seemed to be named after a date - the 8-30 Theatre Company, that sort
of thing.
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
It seems to be a feature of Spanish and Portuguese to name streets
after the dates on which events took place, rather than the events
themselves.
It’s a common enough thing in Central Europe too. I think English-speaking
countries are the exception.
Post by Steve Hayes
Perhaps that has influenced AmE to some extent -- don't they have
something called Juneteenth over there?
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
Hibou
2024-11-09 09:02:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Hibou
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
It seems to be a feature of Spanish and Portuguese to name streets
after the dates on which events took place, rather than the events
themselves.
It’s a common enough thing in Central Europe too. I think English-speaking
countries are the exception.
Could be. Google Maps finds five Places and five Rues du 6 juin in France.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-09 11:49:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Steve Hayes
It seems to be a feature of Spanish and Portuguese to name streets
after the dates on which events took place, rather than the events
themselves.
It’s a common enough thing in Central Europe too. I think English-speaking
countries are the exception.
I don't think that I have encounted a date-name for a road or place in
Denmark.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-09 15:00:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Steve Hayes
It seems to be a feature of Spanish and Portuguese to name streets
after the dates on which events took place, rather than the events
themselves.
It’s a common enough thing in Central Europe too. I think English-speaking
countries are the exception.
I don't think that I have encounted a date-name for a road or place in
Denmark.
There are plenty of Rues du 14 juillet, 8 mai and 11 novembre in
France. Probably other dates too.

There used to be an 11 septiembre (now recovered its earlier name of
Nueva Providencia) in Santiago, but it glorified 1973, not 2001. That's
the trouble with using dates to name things: they mean different events
to different people.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Anders D. Nygaard
2024-11-10 23:08:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Steve Hayes
It seems to be a feature of Spanish and Portuguese to name streets
after the dates on which events took place, rather than the events
themselves.
It’s a common enough thing in Central Europe too. I think English-speaking
countries are the exception.
I don't think that I have encounted a date-name for a road or place in
Denmark.
Frederiksberg has a "5. juni plads" (Constitution day, for those not
of the Danish persuasion). But I agree that they are uncommon.

/Anders, Denmark
Silvano
2024-11-11 09:26:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Steve Hayes
It seems to be a feature of Spanish and Portuguese to name streets
after the dates on which events took place, rather than the events
themselves.
It’s a common enough thing in Central Europe too. I think
English-speaking
countries are the exception.
I don't think that I have encounted a date-name for a road or place in
Denmark.
Frederiksberg has a "5. juni plads" (Constitution day, for those not
of the Danish persuasion). But I agree that they are uncommon.
What is "the Danish persuasion"? A literal translation?

I'd have written "for those who do not know Danish history" (like me).
Peter Moylan
2024-11-11 11:06:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Frederiksberg has a "5. juni plads" (Constitution day, for those
not of the Danish persuasion). But I agree that they are uncommon.
What is "the Danish persuasion"? A literal translation?
I'd have written "for those who do not know Danish history" (like me).
I congratulate Anders on his command of colloquial English. Purists who
require literal exactness might not like it, but some very good writers
have used tongue-in-cheek phrases like "a person of the female persuasion".
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Silvano
2024-11-11 11:26:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Silvano
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Frederiksberg has a "5. juni plads" (Constitution day, for those
not of the Danish persuasion). But I agree that they are uncommon.
What is "the Danish persuasion"? A literal translation?
I'd have written "for those who do not know Danish history" (like me).
I congratulate Anders on his command of colloquial English. Purists who
require literal exactness might not like it, but some very good writers
have used tongue-in-cheek phrases like "a person of the female persuasion".
It's not a matter of purism. Apparently my command of colloquial English
is inferior to that of Anders.
And now please explain to a foreigner the meaning of "a person of the
female persuasion". TIA.
jerryfriedman
2024-11-11 15:32:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Silvano
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Frederiksberg has a "5. juni plads" (Constitution day, for those
not of the Danish persuasion). But I agree that they are uncommon.
What is "the Danish persuasion"? A literal translation?
I'd have written "for those who do not know Danish history" (like me).
I congratulate Anders on his command of colloquial English. Purists who
require literal exactness might not like it, but some very good writers
have used tongue-in-cheek phrases like "a person of the female persuasion".
It's not a matter of purism. Apparently my command of colloquial English
is inferior to that of Anders.
And now please explain to a foreigner the meaning of "a person of the
female persuasion". TIA.
"Persuasion" can mean "religion", based on the Christian
model where missionaries and preachers persuade people
to join their denomination. Thus old-fashioned phrases
like "of the Presbyterian persuasion" or less
appropriately "of the Jewish persuasion". Some people
comically extend it to other categories such as "Danish"
and "female".

(That's why a book and a movie about Quakers were called
/The Friendly Persuasion/.)

--
Jerry Friedman

--
Steve Hayes
2024-11-10 00:20:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Steve Hayes
It seems to be a feature of Spanish and Portuguese to name streets
after the dates on which events took place, rather than the events
themselves.
It’s a common enough thing in Central Europe too. I think English-speaking
countries are the exception.
Or a Latin thing rather than a Germanic thing.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-11 09:43:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Steve Hayes
It seems to be a feature of Spanish and Portuguese to name streets
after the dates on which events took place, rather than the events
themselves.
It's a common enough thing in Central Europe too. I think English-speaking
countries are the exception.
Or a Latin thing rather than a Germanic thing.
Common in France. I'm alerted to it because my dear Ms TomTom
can pronounce French street names reasonably well,
(with a synthetic voiuce)
but she cannot do French numbers and years.
So she may tel me that I'm on the
Avenue du ... aids of Mai nineteen forty five,

Jan
--
(btw, a Belgian pronouncing French is much better at it than a native)
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-11 11:23:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Common in France. I'm alerted to it because my dear Ms TomTom
can pronounce French street names reasonably well,
(with a synthetic voiuce)
but she cannot do French numbers and years.
So she may tel me that I'm on the
Avenue du ... aids of Mai nineteen forty five,
Ms Google can't do Roman numbers. One road near me becomes "Christian
eks' road". For a while she couldn't pronounce "Svanlev-vej" either
(hyphen for those of English persuasion). It became "Svanlevej". I think
that you can imagine the problem without knowing the pronunciation. It
has been fixed, though.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Silvano
2024-11-10 10:29:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
It seems to be a feature of Spanish and Portuguese to name streets
after the dates on which events took place, rather than the events
themselves.
My comment got lost in the web yesterday.
Italy is also full of streets named after a date. Sometimes even I don't
know what happened there on that day.
Rich Ulrich
2024-11-11 00:52:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2024 11:29:30 +0100, Silvano
Post by Silvano
My comment got lost in the web yesterday.
Today, I'm seeing posts show up from up to 48 hours ago that
did not show up yesterday.

Yesterday, my feed included some for yesterday, but also
some that were already two days old (or older).

I see that your path includes Giganews, which happens to be
my supplier. They were silent for a day or two, not so long ago.
I suspect that they are screwing up a bit, again.
--
Rich Ulrich
Silvano
2024-11-11 09:31:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich Ulrich
I see that your path includes Giganews, which happens to be
my supplier. They were silent for a day or two, not so long ago.
I suspect that they are screwing up a bit, again.
Interesting. Giganews, what's that? Neither my Internet nor my Usenet
provider. Actually, I'd never come across that name before your posting.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-11 11:24:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Rich Ulrich
I see that your path includes Giganews, which happens to be
my supplier. They were silent for a day or two, not so long ago.
I suspect that they are screwing up a bit, again.
Interesting. Giganews, what's that? Neither my Internet nor my Usenet
provider. Actually, I'd never come across that name before your posting.
I've hard about the provider several times, also in this group.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Mark Brader
2024-11-11 22:27:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I've hard about [Giganews] several times, also in this group.
You mean "including" or, if you want to suggest it's surprising, "even".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "This quote is very memorable."
***@vex.net --Randall Munroe
Sam Plusnet
2024-11-11 18:26:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Rich Ulrich
I see that your path includes Giganews, which happens to be
my supplier. They were silent for a day or two, not so long ago.
I suspect that they are screwing up a bit, again.
Interesting. Giganews, what's that? Neither my Internet nor my Usenet
provider. Actually, I'd never come across that name before your posting.
Where an Internet Serve Provider (ISP) does offer access to a Usenet
server[1], access to that server is usually contracted from either
Newshosting or Giganews (there are others).
Hence you might be using a Giganews server to receive and post here, but
not realise it.

[1] Increasingly rare, here in the UK.
--
Sam Plusnet
Adam Funk
2024-11-11 12:48:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Hibou
       Dubbelvändning: Domare godkänner avtal med 11 september-fångar
       Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 11
september-prisoners
       Complete turn: Judge approves agreement with 9-11-prisoners
In English that's "9/11 prisoners", with no hyphens. [...]
Well, yes, though that format has a Chinese Communist look to me. A long
time ago, and again rather later, I read a book about the Cultural
Revolution called 'Red Guard' (1972) by Ken Ling. Almost everything in
it seemed to be named after a date - the 8-30 Theatre Company, that sort
of thing.
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
It seems to be a feature of Spanish and Portuguese to name streets
after the dates on which events took place, rather than the events
themselves.
France and Italy too.
Post by Steve Hayes
Perhaps that has influenced AmE to some extent -- don't they have
something called Juneteenth over there?
That's a commemoration of June 19th, 1865 (final enforcement of the
Emancipation Proclamation).
--
When a man tells you that he got rich through hard work, ask him
whose? ---Don Marquis
Mark Brader
2024-11-09 09:43:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
You mean World Trade Center.

The date became used as the name because it to embraced the other,
less successful half of the attacks that day. The format "9/11"
became popular, of course, because of the resemblance to "911"
(also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose phones don't have an 11 key).
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "But I do't have a '' key o my termial."
***@vex.net -- Lynn Gold

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Hibou
2024-11-09 13:55:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Hibou
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
You mean World Trade Center.
Oh, do I?
Post by Mark Brader
The date became used as the name because it to embraced the other,
less successful half of the attacks that day. The format "9/11"
became popular, of course, because of the resemblance to "911"
(also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose phones don't have an 11 key).
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in places
where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling suggests that people
don't make that connection - or rather, see it but dismiss it).
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-09 14:52:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Hibou
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
You mean World Trade Center.
Oh, do I?
It's a very pedantic point. Most people call it what you called it.
There are other World Trade Centers, for example in Grenoble.
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
The date became used as the name because it to embraced the other,
less successful half of the attacks that day. The format "9/11"
became popular, of course, because of the resemblance to "911"
(also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose phones don't have an 11 key).
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in
places where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling suggests
that people don't make that connection - or rather, see it but dismiss
it).
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Mark Brader
2024-11-10 07:49:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
...the Twin Towers attack.
You mean World Trade Center.
Oh, do I?
Yes.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
It's a very pedantic point.
Thank you.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Most people call it what you called it.
Most people who don't know the name of the complex.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
There are other World Trade Centers, for example in Grenoble.
Sure, but they're not in New York, and therefore unimportant.
(Nods sagely.)
--
Mark Brader | "I dream of a better world where chickens can cross the road
Toronto | without having their motives questioned."
***@vex.net | --not Bill Murray

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-09 15:28:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in places
where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling suggests that people
don't make that connection - or rather, see it but dismiss it).
I noted the asimilarity right away, and I wondered if that was the
reason that Bin-Laden chose that day.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
jerryfriedman
2024-11-09 15:31:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Hibou
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
You mean World Trade Center.
Oh, do I?
Post by Mark Brader
The date became used as the name because it to embraced the other,
less successful half of the attacks that day. The format "9/11"
became popular, of course, because of the resemblance to "911"
(also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose phones don't have an 11 key).
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in places
where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling suggests that people
don't make that connection - or rather, see it but dismiss it).
I always (for the last 23 years) thought people who called
it "9/11" had the connection in mind.

--
Jerry Friedman

--
Janet
2024-11-10 09:58:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
In article
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 15:31:24 +0000
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Hibou
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
You mean World Trade Center.
Oh, do I?
Post by Mark Brader
The date became used as the name because it to embraced the other,
less successful half of the attacks that day. The format "9/11"
became popular, of course, because of the resemblance to "911"
(also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose phones don't have an 11 key).
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in places
where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling suggests that people
don't make that connection - or rather, see it but dismiss it).
I always (for the last 23 years) thought people who called
it "9/11" had the connection in mind.
I'd never made that connection until today.

Our national emergency number is 999.

Janet
Sam Plusnet
2024-11-10 18:27:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
In article
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 15:31:24 +0000
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Hibou
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
You mean World Trade Center.
Oh, do I?
Post by Mark Brader
The date became used as the name because it to embraced the other,
less successful half of the attacks that day. The format "9/11"
became popular, of course, because of the resemblance to "911"
(also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose phones don't have an 11 key).
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in places
where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling suggests that people
don't make that connection - or rather, see it but dismiss it).
I always (for the last 23 years) thought people who called
it "9/11" had the connection in mind.
I'd never made that connection until today.
Our national emergency number is 999.
Whilst the non-emergency number is 101.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter Moylan
2024-11-10 22:55:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
2024 15:31:24 +0000 On Sat, 9 Nov 2024 13:55:23 +0000, Hibou
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
The date became used as the name because it to embraced the
other, less successful half of the attacks that day. The
format "9/11" became popular, of course, because of the
resemblance to "911" (also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose
phones don't have an 11 key).
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in
places where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling
suggests that people don't make that connection - or rather, see
it but dismiss it).
I always (for the last 23 years) thought people who called it
"9/11" had the connection in mind.
I'd never made that connection until today.
Our national emergency number is 999.
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be forwarded to
000.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
charles
2024-11-11 08:45:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
2024 15:31:24 +0000 On Sat, 9 Nov 2024 13:55:23 +0000, Hibou
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
The date became used as the name because it to embraced the
other, less successful half of the attacks that day. The
format "9/11" became popular, of course, because of the
resemblance to "911" (also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose
phones don't have an 11 key).
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in
places where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling
suggests that people don't make that connection - or rather, see
it but dismiss it).
I always (for the last 23 years) thought people who called it
"9/11" had the connection in mind.
I'd never made that connection until today.
Our national emergency number is 999.
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be forwarded to
000.
I think the same is true in the UK
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-11 08:59:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be forwarded to
000.
I think the same is true in the UK
We have a lot of American television in Denmark, but I haven't heard
that people try 911.

I found a webpage that describes how to call 112 (our emergency number).
It explains that mobiles will redirect 911 to 112, but I think that that
is built into the OS. There was a lot of public explanation when we
changed from 000 to 112 that most Danes know it.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-11 09:43:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
2024 15:31:24 +0000 On Sat, 9 Nov 2024 13:55:23 +0000, Hibou
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
The date became used as the name because it to embraced the
other, less successful half of the attacks that day. The
format "9/11" became popular, of course, because of the
resemblance to "911" (also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose
phones don't have an 11 key).
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in
places where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling
suggests that people don't make that connection - or rather, see
it but dismiss it).
I always (for the last 23 years) thought people who called it
"9/11" had the connection in mind.
I'd never made that connection until today.
Our national emergency number is 999.
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be forwarded to
000.
I think the same is true in the UK
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112)
I don't know which one redirects to the other.

Jan
Hibou
2024-11-11 10:10:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be
forwarded to
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
000.
I think the same is true in the UK
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112) [...]
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and far
less resonant and memorable 112?

Eee, lad!

(Do you know the expression 'You should wind your neck in'?)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-11 10:21:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be forwarded to
000.
I think the same is true in the UK
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112) [...]
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and far
less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
Post by Hibou
Eee, lad!
(Do you know the expression 'You should wind your neck in'?)
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Silvano
2024-11-11 10:39:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and
far less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
Almost. The slowest three-digit number was 000.
Don't believe me, but trust instead most pictures in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_dial>

The New Zealand telephone would have been very clever, if they also used
999 for emergencies, but I read there that they used 111 instead.

Why use a very slow number for emergency calls?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-11 10:58:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and
far less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
Almost. The slowest three-digit number was 000.
Don't believe me, but trust instead most pictures in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_dial>
That was my doubt: I wasn't sure whether 0 came before 1 or after 9.
Post by Silvano
The New Zealand telephone would have been very clever, if they also used
999 for emergencies, but I read there that they used 111 instead.
Why use a very slow number for emergency calls?
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
charles
2024-11-11 11:08:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and
far less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
Almost. The slowest three-digit number was 000.
Don't believe me, but trust instead most pictures in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_dial>
That was my doubt: I wasn't sure whether 0 came before 1 or after 9.
'0' is actually '10'
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
charles
2024-11-11 11:08:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and
far less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
Almost. The slowest three-digit number was 000.
Don't believe me, but trust instead most pictures in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_dial>
The New Zealand telephone would have been very clever, if they also used
999 for emergencies, but I read there that they used 111 instead.
Why use a very slow number for emergency calls?
to stop it being dialled by accident.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-11 13:45:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and
far less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
Almost. The slowest three-digit number was 000.
Don't believe me, but trust instead most pictures in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_dial>
The New Zealand telephone would have been very clever, if they also used
999 for emergencies, but I read there that they used 111 instead.
Why use a very slow number for emergency calls?
to stop it being dialled by accident.
Ah. That's a valid reason. 000 is not likely to be dialled by a small
child playing with a telephone. I was giving a lecture in Berlin five
years when my telephone suddenly rang, quite surprising, as my wife is
the only person who normally telephones me, but she was in the audience
and I could see that it wasn't her. It turned out to be my
granddaughter, then 4, playing with her other grandmother's telephone.
My name beginning with A, it was the first on her list of contacts.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Paul Wolff
2024-11-11 20:09:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and
far less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
Almost. The slowest three-digit number was 000.
Don't believe me, but trust instead most pictures in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_dial>
The New Zealand telephone would have been very clever, if they also used
999 for emergencies, but I read there that they used 111 instead.
Why use a very slow number for emergency calls?
to stop it being dialled by accident.
I was told a different reason - or if not a reason, a benefit. You can
find the dial opening for '9' with your finger even in total darkness or
a smoke-filled room.
--
Paul W
Hibou
2024-11-11 11:09:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and
far less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
Almost. The slowest three-digit number was 000.
Don't believe me, but trust instead most pictures in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_dial>
The New Zealand telephone would have been very clever, if they also used
999 for emergencies, but I read there that they used 111 instead.
Why use a very slow number for emergency calls?
In the days of pulse dialling, the number of pulses sent for each digit
was equal to the value of the digit - one for 1, nine for 9, ten for 0.
The system was noisy, and glitches might pass for a 1, and so a 9 was
more definite. The pulse rate was 10 Hz.

With the advent of DTMF and later electronic systems, all digits take
the same time to dial.

And I don't think that the extra time taken to dial 999 instead of 111 -
shall we say 3 x (0.5 + 0.8) = 3.9 s - contributed significantly to
total response time.
Hibou
2024-11-11 14:00:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Silvano
Why use a very slow number for emergency calls?
I wrote in a hurry and bypassed final inspection, so...
Post by Hibou
In the days of pulse dialling, the number of pulses sent for each digit
was equal to the value of the digit - one for 1, nine for 9, ten for 0.
Hmm. 10 = 0?
Post by Hibou
The system was noisy, and glitches might pass for a 1, and so a 9 was
more definite. The pulse rate was 10 Hz.
The Wikipedia article talks of the charging mechanism in
button-A-and-button-B payphones:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/999_(emergency_telephone_number)#History>

I've found Atkinson (1950) at <archive.org>, but can't find where he
talks of this. There are brief mentions of emergency calls on p. 330 and
p. 725. (I note that, quite rightly for those times, he refers to
telephone operators as 'she'.)
Post by Hibou
With the advent of DTMF and later electronic systems, all digits take
the same time to dial.
And I don't think that the extra time taken to dial 999 instead of 111 -
shall we say 3 x (0.5 + 0.8) = 3.9 s - contributed significantly to
total response time.
If the glitch idea has any merit, and spurious calls were avoided, that
would reduce the load on operators and speed up the service.

Anyway, the emergency number is the ultimate telephone number. 999 is
very distinctive and a good choice, certainly better than
bureaucrat-grey 112. When you call it, you mean it. When you don't need
it, it oozes the message "Leave me be!"
Silvano
2024-11-11 14:35:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Post by Silvano
Why use a very slow number for emergency calls?
I wrote in a hurry and bypassed final inspection, so...
Post by Hibou
In the days of pulse dialling, the number of pulses sent for each
digit was equal to the value of the digit - one for 1, nine for 9, ten
for 0.
Hmm. 10 = 0?
It sounds logical. In the days of pulse dialling, no pulse sent = no
number. The 0 would be useless.
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-11 21:22:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Post by Silvano
Why use a very slow number for emergency calls?
I wrote in a hurry and bypassed final inspection, so...
Post by Hibou
In the days of pulse dialling, the number of pulses sent for each digit
was equal to the value of the digit - one for 1, nine for 9, ten for 0.
Hmm. 10 = 0?
Certainly, that's modulo 10 arithmetic for you.
In full 10 = 0 (mod 10)
Being precise that = should have three horizontal bars,
but real mathematicians will ignore that nicety,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2024-11-11 11:20:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's
oldest emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that
everyone was utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have
adopted your new and far less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that
999 was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
Almost. The slowest three-digit number was 000. Don't believe me, but
trust instead most pictures in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_dial>
The New Zealand telephone would have been very clever, if they also
used 999 for emergencies, but I read there that they used 111
instead.
Why use a very slow number for emergency calls?
111 and 112 are the sort of numbers that could be generated accidentally
by a child playing with the phone. Of course, this is a non-issue now
that we don't use dial phones, but "accidental nuisance calls" was a
factor to consider back then.

When I was subscribed to a VoIP system, I think 112 was the number for
fetching my voicemail messages. That must have been before Australia
allowed 112 to be an emergency number on mobile phones. (But not, as
far as I know, on landlines.)
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Brian
2024-11-12 01:48:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and
far less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
Almost. The slowest three-digit number was 000.
Don't believe me, but trust instead most pictures in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_dial>
The New Zealand telephone would have been very clever, if they also used
999 for emergencies, but I read there that they used 111 instead.
Why use a very slow number for emergency calls?
We didn't. NZ dials were reversed. See
Loading Image...

The reason for this is unclear. Perhaps is was a patent-avoiding strategy.

--brian
--
Wellington
New Zealand
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-11-11 11:26:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 11:21:19 +0100
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be forwarded to
000.
I think the same is true in the UK
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112) [...]
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and far
less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
I don't actually matter; you get stuck in a queue anyhow, these days, AIUI.
Or maybe it's 1 - Ambulance, 1 - Life threatening, 1 -really urgent, 1 - definitely, - "please wait while we connnect you", "what's your postcode?"

call me a cynic.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Eee, lad!
(Do you know the expression 'You should wind your neck in'?)
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-11 12:42:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 11:21:19 +0100
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Such is the power of American television that our phone system
people had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can
be forwarded to 000.
I think the same is true in the UK
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112) [...]
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and far
less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
I don't actually matter; you get stuck in a queue anyhow, these days,
AIUI. Or maybe it's 1 - Ambulance, 1 - Life threatening, 1 -really urgent,
1 - definitely, - "please wait while we connnect you", "what's your
postcode?"
call me a cynic.
You must be a British cynic.
In these parts the person taking your call
will have your location on the map on screen,
with directions for available emergeny vehicles
before he/she even answers your call,

Jan

FYA, some ancient numbers are fossilised in literature,
for example in the name of the Belgian warrior Vandeuléflix.
Peter Moylan
2024-11-12 00:05:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
I don't actually matter; you get stuck in a queue anyhow, these
days, AIUI. Or maybe it's 1 - Ambulance, 1 - Life threatening, 1
-really urgent, 1 - definitely, - "please wait while we connnect
you", "what's your postcode?"
call me a cynic.
You must be a British cynic. In these parts the person taking your
call will have your location on the map on screen, with directions
for available emergeny vehicles before he/she even answers your
call,
Those maps don't always tell the full story. A few years ago I had to
call the car breakdown service (not the same as the
fire/police/ambulance number) when my engine seized up. I told the
operator where I was, and she said "Oh, you're in Park Avenue". "No, I'm
in Croudace Street, just off the Charlestown bypass. You can't get to
Park Avenue from here. There's a No Right Turn sign." I had to do a lot
of convincing to get her to acknowledge my correct location. A long time
later, a tow truck turned up. "I've been searching for you for ages", he
said. "They told me you were in Park Avenue."

The commonest question here, apparently, is "What is the nearest cross
street?". On the only occasion where I had to call for an ambulance, I
was in an unfamiliar town and didn't know the name of the nearest other
street. I had to tell them "Look, it's a small town, and everyone knows
where North Street is. They'll find it."

We once had a sad case where a hiker, lost in the bush in the Blue
Mountains, couldn't get help. He died after a number of calls to the
emergency number, and the operators treated it as a hoax because he
couldn't name the nearest cross street.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-11 11:27:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
000 is worse. But I got the technical explanation once why 111 was a bad
idea.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-11 21:22:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
000 is worse. But I got the technical explanation once why 111 was a bad
idea.
But the 1-s are good, easy to find and the fastest, so good.
So you get 112 (best) or 911 (almost as good)

Jan
Peter Moylan
2024-11-12 00:10:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that
999 was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
000 is worse. But I got the technical explanation once why 111 was a
bad idea.
On those old dial phones, 0 was the easiest digit to find in the dark.

By coincidence, it's also the easiest digit to find on a keypad. But
we're supposed to use 112 on mobile phones, where that feature is built
into the phone.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Sam Plusnet
2024-11-11 18:33:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
 >>>
 >>> Such is the power of American television that our phone system
people
 >>> had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be
forwarded to
 >>> 000.
 >>
 >> I think the same is true in the UK
 >
 > The Brits never got it right.
 > The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
 > (for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
 > The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
 > who kept their 999. (along with the 112) [...]
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and
far less resonant and memorable 112?
I no longer have a dial phone to check, but my recollection is that 999
was the slowest number to dial -- not ideal in an emergency.
Almost, but 999 was chosen as the least likely number to be dialled by
accident (when phones still had rotary dials).

Any delay in dialling 999 would be lost in the time spent listening to
the operator saying:
"Which service do you require, Fire, Police or Ambulance?"
- then answering the question, and waiting whilst _that_ call was connected.
--
Sam Plusnet
Aidan Kehoe
2024-11-11 11:40:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be
forwarded to
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
000.
I think the same is true in the UK
The Brits never got it right. The EU managed to standardise on a single
emergency number, 112. (for the whole EU, abolishing all different
national ones) The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits, who
kept their 999. (along with the 112) [...]
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was utterly
familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and far less resonant
and memorable 112?
Problem solved, both work. I’m sure the older number still works in Denmark,
too.

Ukraine has another number, which I can’t remember off the top of my head, but
I have had to explain 112 to several Ukrainian patients.
Post by Peter Moylan
Eee, lad!
(Do you know the expression 'You should wind your neck in'?)
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-11 11:47:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Hibou
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was utterly
familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and far less resonant
and memorable 112?
Problem solved, both work. I’m sure the older number still works in Denmark,
too.
I doubt it, but for obvious reasons I will not test it.
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Ukraine has another number, which I can’t remember off the top of my head, but
I have had to explain 112 to several Ukrainian patients.
The Wikipedia page claims that they have 112.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-11 12:42:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be
forwarded to
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
000.
I think the same is true in the UK
The Brits never got it right. The EU managed to standardise on a single
emergency number, 112. (for the whole EU, abolishing all different
national ones) The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits, who
kept their 999. (along with the 112) [...]
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and far
less resonant and memorable 112?
Problem solved, both work. I'm sure the older number still works in Denmark,
too.
Possibly. However, the standardisation took place so long ago
that few people will remember the old numbers.
I have no idea what if may have been.
Ukraine has another number, which I can't remember off the top of my head, but
I have had to explain 112 to several Ukrainian patients.
They learn, eventually, if they ever manage to join the EU,
(they probably already have the Russian one)

Jan
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-11 12:42:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be
forwarded to
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
000.
I think the same is true in the UK
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112) [...]
Interesting point of view. So we were wrong to keep the world's oldest
emergency number, dating back to 1937, a number that everyone was
utterly familiar with? Instead, we should have adopted your new and far
less resonant and memorable 112?
Eee, lad!
(Do you know the expression 'You should wind your neck in'?)
You missed a chance of having some Brexit-assisted deaths
by abolishing 112 altogether.

Where is Rees-Mogg when you need him?

Jan
Janet
2024-11-11 10:29:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
2024 15:31:24 +0000 On Sat, 9 Nov 2024 13:55:23 +0000, Hibou
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
The date became used as the name because it to embraced the
other, less successful half of the attacks that day. The
format "9/11" became popular, of course, because of the
resemblance to "911" (also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose
phones don't have an 11 key).
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in
places where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling
suggests that people don't make that connection - or rather, see
it but dismiss it).
I always (for the last 23 years) thought people who called it
"9/11" had the connection in mind.
I'd never made that connection until today.
Our national emergency number is 999.
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be forwarded to
000.
I think the same is true in the UK
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112)
I don't know which one redirects to the other.
Both work in UK, and call emergency services direct.

Most Brits prefer 999, we kept it because 112 is too
close to other national service numbers.

111 for non-emergency medical calls to NHS

101 for non-emergency calls to police.

Janet
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-11-11 11:27:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 10:29:04 -0000
Post by Janet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
2024 15:31:24 +0000 On Sat, 9 Nov 2024 13:55:23 +0000, Hibou
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
The date became used as the name because it to embraced the
other, less successful half of the attacks that day. The
format "9/11" became popular, of course, because of the
resemblance to "911" (also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose
phones don't have an 11 key).
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in
places where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling
suggests that people don't make that connection - or rather, see
it but dismiss it).
I always (for the last 23 years) thought people who called it
"9/11" had the connection in mind.
I'd never made that connection until today.
Our national emergency number is 999.
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be forwarded to
000.
I think the same is true in the UK
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112)
I don't know which one redirects to the other.
Both work in UK, and call emergency services direct.
Most Brits prefer 999, we kept it because 112 is too
close to other national service numbers.
111 for non-emergency medical calls to NHS
101 for non-emergency calls to police.
Sorry, I Shudda Read Ahead
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-11 11:33:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by J. J. Lodder
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112)
I don't know which one redirects to the other.
Both work in UK, and call emergency services direct.
Most Brits prefer 999, we kept it because 112 is too
close to other national service numbers.
That doesn't bother Danes.

112 emergency
114 police
118 telephone number information

(or maybe it does, but then I'm not aware of it).
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-11 12:42:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by charles
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Janet
2024 15:31:24 +0000 On Sat, 9 Nov 2024 13:55:23 +0000, Hibou
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
The date became used as the name because it to embraced the
other, less successful half of the attacks that day. The
format "9/11" became popular, of course, because of the
resemblance to "911" (also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose
phones don't have an 11 key).
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in
places where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling
suggests that people don't make that connection - or rather, see
it but dismiss it).
I always (for the last 23 years) thought people who called it
"9/11" had the connection in mind.
I'd never made that connection until today.
Our national emergency number is 999.
Such is the power of American television that our phone system people
had to put in a redirect so that people who dial 911 can be forwarded to
000.
I think the same is true in the UK
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112)
I don't know which one redirects to the other.
Both work in UK, and call emergency services direct.
Most Brits prefer 999, we kept it because 112 is too
close to other national service numbers.
111 for non-emergency medical calls to NHS
101 for non-emergency calls to police.
There is also 113, in these parts,
for those who are thinking to much of suicide. [1]
Don't know how Europe-wide that one is,

Jan

[1] Whenever there is something about some suicide in the news
it will be mentioned i some way, for those who might feel they might
need it.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-11 18:52:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
There is also 113, in these parts,
for those who are thinking to much of suicide. [1]
Don't know how Europe-wide that one is,
I just looked up a list of such telephone numbers for Denmark. They are
all 6 digit numbers.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-11 11:26:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112)
I don't know which one redirects to the other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emergency_telephone_numbers
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Chris Elvidge
2024-11-11 12:36:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by J. J. Lodder
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112)
I don't know which one redirects to the other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emergency_telephone_numbers
112 is part of the GSM standard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/112_(emergency_telephone_number)
--
Chris Elvidge, England
I AM NOT A DENTIST
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-11 12:56:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by J. J. Lodder
The Brits never got it right.
The EU managed to standardise on a single emergency number, 112.
(for the whole EU, abolishing all different national ones)
The whole EU went along, except of course the Brits,
who kept their 999. (along with the 112)
I don't know which one redirects to the other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emergency_telephone_numbers
112 is part of the GSM standard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/112_(emergency_telephone_number)
For some curious reason https:.... refs ending with a closing )
are not clickable on many systems.

They should be enclosed in angle brackets, < > like so,
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/112_(emergency_telephone_number)>
as already recommended for all refs by Saint Tim,
(blessed be his name)

Jan
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-11-11 11:08:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2024 09:58:56 -0000
Post by Janet
In article
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2024 15:31:24 +0000
Post by Hibou
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Hibou
I dare say that's just me. All the same, I can't think of another
example of such naming in BrE. Trafalgar Square, Waterloo Station,
Mafeking Avenue, Dunkirk Street.... I think we'd've called it something
like the Twin Towers attack.
You mean World Trade Center.
Oh, do I?
Post by Mark Brader
The date became used as the name because it to embraced the other,
less successful half of the attacks that day. The format "9/11"
became popular, of course, because of the resemblance to "911"
(also spelled "9-1-1" by people whose phones don't have an 11 key).
That hadn't occurred to me. I suppose it might occur to people in places
where 911 is the emergency number (a quick googling suggests that people
don't make that connection - or rather, see it but dismiss it).
I always (for the last 23 years) thought people who called
it "9/11" had the connection in mind.
I'd never made that connection until today.
Our national emergency number is 999.
AIUI it changed awhile back to 112, but they daren't remove the old 999 code.
<OB pedant: telephones 'numbers' aren't; sometimes they have leading zeroes.>
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
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