Tart-leafed

[Marius Hancu]

Hello:

Would you know what "tart-leafed" may mean here?

Could it mean "tart-leavened," i.e. "pungently leavened?"

----
We have our burnished bay tree at the gate,
Classical, hung with the reek of silage
From the next farm, tart-leafed as inwit.

Glanmore Sonnets, IX
by Seamus Heaney (p. 164)
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=178023
-----

Thanks.
Marius Hancu

[Donna Richoux]

Post by Marius Hancu
Would you know what "tart-leafed" may mean here?
Could it mean "tart-leavened," i.e. "pungently leavened?"
----
We have our burnished bay tree at the gate,
Classical, hung with the reek of silage
From the next farm, tart-leafed as inwit.
Glanmore Sonnets, IX
by Seamus Heaney (p. 164)
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=178023
-----

My first thought was "leaves shaped like tarts" but there's nothing at
all remarkable about the oval shape of a bay leaf, and are tarts
anything but circular? I think you're on to something with "tart" as
flavor, because that's what bay leaves are famous for, a strong spice.
See, for example,
http://willowcreektraders.com/_wsn/page2.html

If you take a leaf off a bay tree and crush it, the whiff of aroma is
strong enough to make you jerk your nose back.

"Leavened" can't be the right word, though -- that's like yeast, a
leavening agent makes bread rise. MW11 doesn't give an etymology.

Now, "inwit"... It's not in MW11. Webster 1913 has "n. Inward sense;
mind; understanding; conscience. "

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Marius Hancu
Would you know what "tart-leafed" may mean here?
Could it mean "tart-leavened," i.e. "pungently leavened?"
----
We have our burnished bay tree at the gate,
Classical, hung with the reek of silage
From the next farm, tart-leafed as inwit.
Glanmore Sonnets, IX
by Seamus Heaney (p. 164)
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=178023
-----

My first thought was "leaves shaped like tarts" but there's nothing at
all remarkable about the oval shape of a bay leaf, and are tarts
anything but circular? I think you're on to something with "tart" as
flavor, because that's what bay leaves are famous for, a strong spice.
See, for example,
http://willowcreektraders.com/_wsn/page2.html
If you take a leaf off a bay tree and crush it, the whiff of aroma is
strong enough to make you jerk your nose back.
"Leavened" can't be the right word, though -- that's like yeast, a
leavening agent makes bread rise. MW11 doesn't give an etymology.
Now, "inwit"... It's not in MW11. Webster 1913 has "n. Inward sense;
mind; understanding; conscience. "

OED:

1. Conscience; inward sense of right and wrong. Also clean
inwit = 'a clean heart'.

2. a. Reason, intellect, understanding; wisdom.

b. pl. (See quot. 1380.)

3. (Rendering L. animus.) Heart, soul, mind; cheer, courage.

¶4. Now used as a conscious archaism in senses 1 and 2 by
some modern writers.

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Peter Duncanson (BrE)

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Marius Hancu
Would you know what "tart-leafed" may mean here?
Could it mean "tart-leavened," i.e. "pungently leavened?"
----
We have our burnished bay tree at the gate,
Classical, hung with the reek of silage
From the next farm, tart-leafed as inwit.
Glanmore Sonnets, IX
by Seamus Heaney (p. 164)
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=178023
-----

My first thought was "leaves shaped like tarts" but there's nothing at
all remarkable about the oval shape of a bay leaf, and are tarts
anything but circular? I think you're on to something with "tart" as
flavor, because that's what bay leaves are famous for, a strong spice.
See, for example,
http://willowcreektraders.com/_wsn/page2.html
If you take a leaf off a bay tree and crush it, the whiff of aroma is
strong enough to make you jerk your nose back.
"Leavened" can't be the right word, though -- that's like yeast, a
leavening agent makes bread rise. MW11 doesn't give an etymology.
Now, "inwit"... It's not in MW11. Webster 1913 has "n. Inward sense;
mind; understanding; conscience. "

1. Conscience; inward sense of right and wrong. Also clean
inwit = 'a clean heart'.
2. a. Reason, intellect, understanding; wisdom.
b. pl. (See quot. 1380.)
3. (Rendering L. animus.) Heart, soul, mind; cheer, courage.
¶4. Now used as a conscious archaism in senses 1 and 2 by
some modern writers.

Now the thing about inwit is its agenbite, innit. ("Remorse", to all you
post-conquest English speakers).

It is sharp -- or _they_ are sharp -- the pangs of conscience, as the flavor
of a bay leaf is, especially, one imagines, when enhanced with the "reek of
silage". (And me without a spoon!)

The "Classical" bit may be that the bay is the same as the laurel, with
wreaths of which ancient Greek victors were crowned. Any other ideas on
that?

[Chuck Riggs]

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:21:56 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
<***@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

<snip>

Post by Donna Richoux
If you take a leaf off a bay tree and crush it, the whiff of aroma is
strong enough to make you jerk your nose back.

Years ago, one of my sister's goats got so ill from eating a bay tree
leaf that it nearly died. Neither knew at the time that the leaves can
be highly poisonous.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Chuck Riggs
On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:21:56 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
<snip>

Post by Donna Richoux
If you take a leaf off a bay tree and crush it, the whiff of aroma
is strong enough to make you jerk your nose back.

Years ago, one of my sister's goats got so ill from eating a bay tree
leaf that it nearly died. Neither knew at the time that the leaves can
be highly poisonous.

That surprises me a little. Well, no little, actually. Are you sure it
wasn't the garden shrub they call "laurel"? That's /Prunus laurocerasus/
or "Cherry laurel". Victor's bay, /Laurus nobilis/ was the plant
originally and properly called laurel (as, for example, in "crowned with
laurel"), and confusion has thence arisen regularly. The confusion is
the worse because, though the leaves of Cherry laurel are poisonous,
they have sometimes been used culinarily in small quantities as an
almondy flavouring (see Mrs Beeton, for example).

The Government book on British poisonous plants says Cherry laurel
doesn't usually build up its full toxicity in British conditions, and
doesn't list bay (/L nobilis/) at all. Butterfly collectors used to use
Cherry laurel leaves in their killing bottles, so I wouldn't mess with
it.

[Chuck Riggs]

On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:54:26 +0100, "Mike Lyle"

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Chuck Riggs
On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 12:21:56 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
<snip>

Post by Donna Richoux
If you take a leaf off a bay tree and crush it, the whiff of aroma
is strong enough to make you jerk your nose back.

Years ago, one of my sister's goats got so ill from eating a bay tree
leaf that it nearly died. Neither knew at the time that the leaves can
be highly poisonous.

That surprises me a little. Well, no little, actually. Are you sure it
wasn't the garden shrub they call "laurel"? That's /Prunus laurocerasus/
or "Cherry laurel". Victor's bay, /Laurus nobilis/ was the plant
originally and properly called laurel (as, for example, in "crowned with
laurel"), and confusion has thence arisen regularly. The confusion is
the worse because, though the leaves of Cherry laurel are poisonous,
they have sometimes been used culinarily in small quantities as an
almondy flavouring (see Mrs Beeton, for example).
The Government book on British poisonous plants says Cherry laurel
doesn't usually build up its full toxicity in British conditions, and
doesn't list bay (/L nobilis/) at all. Butterfly collectors used to use
Cherry laurel leaves in their killing bottles, so I wouldn't mess with
it.

You're right, it wasn't a bay leaf. My sister called it "mountain
laurel", as best I can remember.

[Mike Lyle]

Chuck Riggs wrote:
[...]

Post by Chuck Riggs
You're right, it wasn't a bay leaf. My sister called it "mountain
laurel", as best I can remember.

Ah, /Kalmia latifolia/, known to Brit gardeners as the "calico bush".
Very pretty shrub for an acid soil, and, yes, poisonous to livestock.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain-laurel

Which reveals that one of its American names is "spoonwood" because the
locals used to make spoons out of it, even though all parts are toxic.
Go figure.

[R J Valentine]

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:18:59 +0100 Mike Lyle <***@removethisyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

} Chuck Riggs wrote:
} [...]
}>
}> You're right, it wasn't a bay leaf. My sister called it "mountain
}> laurel", as best I can remember.
}
} Ah, /Kalmia latifolia/, known to Brit gardeners as the "calico bush".
} Very pretty shrub for an acid soil, and, yes, poisonous to livestock.
} See:
} http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain-laurel
}
} Which reveals that one of its American names is "spoonwood" because the
} locals used to make spoons out of it, even though all parts are toxic.
} Go figure.

It's the very shrub that Laurel, Maryland, was named for. Laurel is at
the heart of the Fourth Largest Metropolitan Area in America. Steny Hoyer
represents Laurel in Congress. A few weeks ago there were several pots of
mountain laurel on our front lawn for a while, but they went back on the
truck after the guy was finished shoveling off the mulch the pots had been
blocking. I may yet plant some out back, just because it was mentioned on
alt.usage.english.

[CDB]

Post by Marius Hancu
Would you know what "tart-leafed" may mean here?
Could it mean "tart-leavened," i.e. "pungently leavened?"

We have our burnished bay tree at the gate,
Classical, hung with the reek of silage
From the next farm, tart-leafed as inwit.

Glanmore Sonnets, IX
by Seamus Heaney (p. 164)
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=178023

[...] I think you're on to something with "tart" as
flavor, because that's what bay leaves are famous for, a strong
spice. See, for example,
http://willowcreektraders.com/_wsn/page2.html
If you take a leaf off a bay tree and crush it, the whiff of aroma
is strong enough to make you jerk your nose back.
"Leavened" can't be the right word, though -- that's like yeast, a
leavening agent makes bread rise. MW11 doesn't give an etymology.
Now, "inwit"... It's not in MW11. Webster 1913 has "n. Inward sense;
mind; understanding; conscience. "

And probably intended to bring the word "bite" to mind. You hardly
ever see the word except in the title _The Agenbite of Inwit_, an
early attempt to english "The Remorse of Conscience". "Burnished" and
"classical" seem intended to evoke bronze, and to remind the reader
that the crown of bay leaves was awarded for victory. They were
sacred to Apollo, and may have been chewed by the Pythia at Delphi.
So I think he may be talking about poetry again.

Yes, I see he is -- divine inspiration and shit, finely mixed.

Blood on a pitchfork, blood on chaff and hay,
Rats speared in the sweat and dust of threshing-
What is my apology for poetry?

The blood on the pitchfork is reminiscent of Horace's line, that you
can drive nature out with a pitchfork but it will always return.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Marius Hancu

Post by Marius Hancu
Would you know what "tart-leafed" may mean here?
Could it mean "tart-leavened," i.e. "pungently leavened?"

We have our burnished bay tree at the gate,
Classical, hung with the reek of silage
From the next farm, tart-leafed as inwit.
Glanmore Sonnets, IX
by Seamus Heaney (p. 164)
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=178023

[...] I think you're on to something with "tart" as
flavor, because that's what bay leaves are famous for, a strong
spice. See, for example,
http://willowcreektraders.com/_wsn/page2.html
If you take a leaf off a bay tree and crush it, the whiff of aroma
is strong enough to make you jerk your nose back.
"Leavened" can't be the right word, though -- that's like yeast, a
leavening agent makes bread rise. MW11 doesn't give an etymology.
Now, "inwit"... It's not in MW11. Webster 1913 has "n. Inward sense;
mind; understanding; conscience. "

And probably intended to bring the word "bite" to mind. You hardly
ever see the word except in the title _The Agenbite of Inwit_, an
early attempt to english "The Remorse of Conscience". "Burnished" and
"classical" seem intended to evoke bronze, and to remind the reader
that the crown of bay leaves was awarded for victory. They were
sacred to Apollo, and may have been chewed by the Pythia at Delphi.
So I think he may be talking about poetry again.
Yes, I see he is -- divine inspiration and shit, finely mixed.
Blood on a pitchfork, blood on chaff and hay,
Rats speared in the sweat and dust of threshing-
What is my apology for poetry?
The blood on the pitchfork is reminiscent of Horace's line, that you
can drive nature out with a pitchfork but it will always return.

I find the detail a little uneasy. I'm a fan, but Famous Seamus isn't
above talking mild bollocks in his long-established pretence at still
being a country boy. First, bay-leaves are aromatic and taste tannically
funny, but not tart: "tart" means "sour". But it's obvious that it's the
flavour meaning he intends--anything else would be utter nonsense. The
foliage of the bay tree is very dull, not remotely "burnished", but the
young growth is of a brighter green. I suppose we could think of the
silage smell hanging about and confusing the scent of the bay; but this
tree's at the gate, so my image is of wisps hanging from it, caught as
the trailers brushed past laden with the forage which was to be ensiled.
The characteristic silage smell doesn't develop until the forage has
fermented in the clamp; but there's no reason not to associate the wisps
of grass and stuff hanging on the tree with the smell drifting across
from next-door--it /is/ pervasive ...

... No. I think I may have got the silage wrong. If the neighbour makes
bale silage rather than clamped, he very likely takes the bales from the
yard out to cattle in the field. He'd probably do this a bale at a time,
carrying each one on a spike on his tractor, so it would very likely
brush against the bay tree, leaving some hanging there.

I agree that "bite" is intended to rise in one's mind in response to
"inwit": "leaves as sharp as conscience".

[Marius Hancu]

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Marius Hancu

Post by Marius Hancu
Would you know what "tart-leafed" may mean here?
Could it mean "tart-leavened," i.e. "pungently leavened?"

We have our burnished bay tree at the gate,
Classical, hung with the reek of silage
From the next farm, tart-leafed as inwit.
Glanmore Sonnets, IX
by Seamus Heaney (p. 164)
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=178023

[...] I think you're on to something with "tart" as
flavor, because that's what bay leaves are famous for, a strong
spice. See, for example,
http://willowcreektraders.com/_wsn/page2.html
If you take a leaf off a bay tree and crush it, the whiff of aroma
is strong enough to make you jerk your nose back.
"Leavened" can't be the right word, though -- that's like yeast, a
leavening agent makes bread rise. MW11 doesn't give an etymology.
Now, "inwit"... It's not in MW11. Webster 1913 has "n. Inward sense;
mind; understanding; conscience. "

And probably intended to bring the word "bite" to mind. You hardly
ever see the word except in the title _The Agenbite of Inwit_, an
early attempt to english "The Remorse of Conscience". "Burnished" and
"classical" seem intended to evoke bronze, and to remind the reader
that the crown of bay leaves was awarded for victory. They were
sacred to Apollo, and may have been chewed by the Pythia at Delphi.
So I think he may be talking about poetry again.
Yes, I see he is -- divine inspiration and shit, finely mixed.
Blood on a pitchfork, blood on chaff and hay,
Rats speared in the sweat and dust of threshing-
What is my apology for poetry?
The blood on the pitchfork is reminiscent of Horace's line, that you
can drive nature out with a pitchfork but it will always return.

I find the detail a little uneasy. I'm a fan, but Famous Seamus isn't
above talking mild bollocks in his long-established pretence at still
being a country boy. First, bay-leaves are aromatic and taste tannically
funny, but not tart: "tart" means "sour". But it's obvious that it's the
flavour meaning he intends--anything else would be utter nonsense. The
foliage of the bay tree is very dull, not remotely "burnished", but the
young growth is of a brighter green. I suppose we could think of the
silage smell hanging about and confusing the scent of the bay; but this
tree's at the gate, so my image is of wisps hanging from it, caught as
the trailers brushed past laden with the forage which was to be ensiled.
The characteristic silage smell doesn't develop until the forage has
fermented in the clamp; but there's no reason not to associate the wisps
of grass and stuff hanging on the tree with the smell drifting across
from next-door--it /is/ pervasive ...
... No. I think I may have got the silage wrong. If the neighbour makes
bale silage rather than clamped, he very likely takes the bales from the
yard out to cattle in the field. He'd probably do this a bale at a time,
carrying each one on a spike on his tractor, so it would very likely
brush against the bay tree, leaving some hanging there.
I agree that "bite" is intended to rise in one's mind in response to
"inwit": "leaves as sharp as conscience".

Thank you all.

Nice pointers from everyone.

Marius Hancu

[TsuiDF]

Post by Mike Lyle
I find the detail a little uneasy. I'm a fan, but Famous Seamus isn't
above talking mild bollocks in his long-established pretence at still
being a country boy. First, bay-leaves are aromatic and taste tannically
funny, but not tart: "tart" means "sour".

I agree with Mike: bay leaves have a mild aroma, but I certainly
wouldn't call it 'tart' or 'biting'. I have surveyed the house and I
am agreed with (admittedly, a small sample) on this. We think bay is
pleasant enough but not 'sharp'.

Equally, we agree that that is, nevertheless, probably what poetic
Seamus was getting at.

cheers,
Stephanie
in Brussels

[CDB]

Post by Mike Lyle

Post by Marius Hancu

Post by Marius Hancu
Would you know what "tart-leafed" may mean here?
Could it mean "tart-leavened," i.e. "pungently leavened?"

We have our burnished bay tree at the gate,
Classical, hung with the reek of silage
From the next farm, tart-leafed as inwit.
Glanmore Sonnets, IX
by Seamus Heaney (p. 164)
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=178023

[...] I think you're on to something with "tart" as
flavor, because that's what bay leaves are famous for, a strong
spice. See, for example,
http://willowcreektraders.com/_wsn/page2.html
If you take a leaf off a bay tree and crush it, the whiff of aroma
is strong enough to make you jerk your nose back.
"Leavened" can't be the right word, though -- that's like yeast, a
leavening agent makes bread rise. MW11 doesn't give an etymology.
Now, "inwit"... It's not in MW11. Webster 1913 has "n. Inward
sense; mind; understanding; conscience. "

And probably intended to bring the word "bite" to mind. You hardly
ever see the word except in the title _The Agenbite of Inwit_, an
early attempt to english "The Remorse of Conscience". "Burnished"
and "classical" seem intended to evoke bronze, and to remind the
reader that the crown of bay leaves was awarded for victory. They
were sacred to Apollo, and may have been chewed by the Pythia at
Delphi. So I think he may be talking about poetry again.

[pitching it]

Post by Mike Lyle
I find the detail a little uneasy. I'm a fan, but Famous Seamus
isn't above talking mild bollocks in his long-established pretence
at still being a country boy. First, bay-leaves are aromatic and
taste tannically funny, but not tart: "tart" means "sour". But it's
obvious that it's the flavour meaning he intends--anything else
would be utter nonsense.

Yes. In the interests of science, I have just chewed a rather old
bayleaf, and report that we can add "bitter" to the list; this is also
the figurative meaning listed by a couple of dictionaries I have
checked with, so perhaps we may conclude that putting forth Apollo's
leaves is a bitter business. Or I could be raving.

Post by Mike Lyle
The foliage of the bay tree is very dull,
not remotely "burnished", but the young growth is of a brighter
green.

There is no substitute for experience, and my experience of bay leaves
is all of the packaged kind. I was thinking of the dull green verging
on yellowy brown that I see in the dried leaves, and assuming that the
tree might be the same in autumn (when the silage is fermenting?), and
thinking that the Poet might polish this into something more lasting;
but Google Images confirms your point about the colour of the tree.

Post by Mike Lyle
I suppose we could think of the silage smell hanging about
and confusing the scent of the bay; but this tree's at the gate, so
my image is of wisps hanging from it, caught as the trailers
brushed past laden with the forage which was to be ensiled. The
characteristic silage smell doesn't develop until the forage has
fermented in the clamp; but there's no reason not to associate the
wisps of grass and stuff hanging on the tree with the smell
drifting across from next-door--it /is/ pervasive ...
... No. I think I may have got the silage wrong. If the neighbour
makes bale silage rather than clamped, he very likely takes the
bales from the yard out to cattle in the field. He'd probably do
this a bale at a time, carrying each one on a spike on his tractor,
so it would very likely brush against the bay tree, leaving some
hanging there.

I like your first take better, I think. I have a feeling the digested
leaves of grass may be more poetical than bucolic anyhow. And now I'm
smelling manure -- must be suggestion at work, unless it's the effect
of the bay leaf, or the Bear has just farted. This earthiness is
catching.

Post by Mike Lyle
I agree that "bite" is intended to rise in one's mind in response to
"inwit": "leaves as sharp as conscience".*

Biter-bitter. A bite of tart. Poet as (sacred) prostitute.

*Totally Off Topic* Has anybody here read Paul Park's _Starbridge
Chronicles_ novels, published in the 80s? I reread my copies
recently, and was struck again by the strangeness of his invention
(especially of the Antinomials) and the power of some of his writing.
"Aspe. Biter Aspe," a chilling moment in the first book, _Soldiers of
Paradise_. I don't suppose they'll have time to come round again,
though; maybe I'll pass them on to one of my nephews.

[James Silverton]

Post by CDB
Yes. In the interests of science, I have just chewed a
rather

old bayleaf, and report that we can add "bitter" to the list;
this is also the figurative meaning listed by a couple of
dictionaries I have checked with, so perhaps we may conclude
that putting forth Apollo's leaves is a bitter business. Or I
could be raving.

For myself, I have cooked with and without Bay Leaves and I
can't tell the difference. Perhaps Bay Leaves are like Cilantro
that some like, some can't taste and some say tastes like soap.

[Irwell]

Post by James Silverton

Post by CDB
Yes. In the interests of science, I have just chewed a
rather

old bayleaf, and report that we can add "bitter" to the list;
this is also the figurative meaning listed by a couple of
dictionaries I have checked with, so perhaps we may conclude
that putting forth Apollo's leaves is a bitter business. Or I
could be raving.

For myself, I have cooked with and without Bay Leaves and I
can't tell the difference. Perhaps Bay Leaves are like Cilantro
that some like, some can't taste and some say tastes like soap.
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Cilantro, like asparagus usually shows up in the urine
after the meal, don't think bay leacves have this effect.