Discussion:
The nature of gods
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Peter Moylan
2024-12-21 08:33:34 UTC
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This is wildly off-topic, as the subject line will indicate. But where
else can I find a bunch of people intelligent enough to discuss a
difficult topic? I know there are philosophy newsgroups, but they don't
have much traffic. Besides, the people posting there don't have an S in
their names, so they can't be real philosophers.

What started this train of thought was reading Simak's novel "A Choice
of Gods". I've put that book down where I was sure to find it, which is
not always a good idea, so now I can't quote from it directly. (It will
probably turn up a couple of years from now.) But I remember the
essential point.

Early in the book, humans have spread out through the galaxy, and they
have found traces of a very powerful entity near the galactic centre.
They know little about this entity, apart from seeing evidence that it
is powerful beyond anything humans can do. They can't communicate with
it because they can't get it to notice them.

This, very obviously, is a god or a god-like being. It has the obvious
attributes: very powerful, with powers beyond our understanding, and so
far beyond us intellectually that no communication is possible.

So far so good. But then it hit me that the gods that we humans have
invented aren't like this. Our gods are slightly modified humans.

The Christian god, for example, has some remarkable super-powers, but
otherwise is very noticeably human. In the popular imagination he is
still an old man in the sky. You can pray to him, and he will listen and
sometimes even answer. Even his moral values are surprisingly close to
human moral values.

The Jewish god is a little more strict, a little more aloof. Still, a
few human characteristics show through. And we do know that he used to
speak to people directly in the distant past.

I have less of an understanding of the Islamic god, because I can't read
Arabic, and apparently translations are insufficient. It seems to me,
though, that Muslims claim a personal relationship with their god, and
that couldn't happen if he was too different from humans.

The Hindu gods are confusing at first sight because some of them use
non-human bodies. Ultimately, though, I think they're human in their
attitudes.

With the Norse gods there's no doubt. Those gods are humans writ large.
Like their followers, they enjoy carousing and fighting.

Likewise for the old Greek gods. They were clearly just powerful humans.

Now, I'll concede that the above is just a sampling. There must be
thousands of gods I know nothing about. I'd bet, though, that most of
the ones I don't know will turn out to have human thoughts and human values.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Snidely
2024-12-21 09:02:23 UTC
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Permalink
Lo, on the 12/21/2024, Peter Moylan did proclaim ...
Post by Peter Moylan
This is wildly off-topic, as the subject line will indicate. But where
else can I find a bunch of people intelligent enough to discuss a
difficult topic? I know there are philosophy newsgroups, but they don't
have much traffic. Besides, the people posting there don't have an S in
their names, so they can't be real philosophers.
What started this train of thought was reading Simak's novel "A Choice
of Gods". I've put that book down where I was sure to find it, which is
not always a good idea, so now I can't quote from it directly. (It will
probably turn up a couple of years from now.) But I remember the
essential point.
Early in the book, humans have spread out through the galaxy, and they
have found traces of a very powerful entity near the galactic centre.
They know little about this entity, apart from seeing evidence that it
is powerful beyond anything humans can do. They can't communicate with
it because they can't get it to notice them.
This, very obviously, is a god or a god-like being. It has the obvious
attributes: very powerful, with powers beyond our understanding, and so
far beyond us intellectually that no communication is possible.
So far so good. But then it hit me that the gods that we humans have
invented aren't like this. Our gods are slightly modified humans.
The Christian god, for example, has some remarkable super-powers, but
otherwise is very noticeably human. In the popular imagination he is
still an old man in the sky. You can pray to him, and he will listen and
sometimes even answer. Even his moral values are surprisingly close to
human moral values.
The Jewish god is a little more strict, a little more aloof. Still, a
few human characteristics show through. And we do know that he used to
speak to people directly in the distant past.
I have less of an understanding of the Islamic god, because I can't read
Arabic, and apparently translations are insufficient. It seems to me,
though, that Muslims claim a personal relationship with their god, and
that couldn't happen if he was too different from humans.
The Hindu gods are confusing at first sight because some of them use
non-human bodies. Ultimately, though, I think they're human in their
attitudes.
With the Norse gods there's no doubt. Those gods are humans writ large.
Like their followers, they enjoy carousing and fighting.
Likewise for the old Greek gods. They were clearly just powerful humans.
Now, I'll concede that the above is just a sampling. There must be
thousands of gods I know nothing about. I'd bet, though, that most of
the ones I don't know will turn out to have human thoughts and human values.
Would you consider tree spirits gods? The Ainu, for instance, are
animists who consider everything in nature to have a kamuy, which could
be considered a [very localized] god, but the most important are more
encompassing ... a goddess of the hearth, a god of bears and mountains,
a god of the sea, fishing, and marine animals; there is also a creator
of the world.

/dps
--
As a colleague once told me about an incoming manager,
"He does very well in a suck-up, kick-down culture."
Bill in Vancouver
Aidan Kehoe
2024-12-21 09:21:43 UTC
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Permalink
[...] So far so good. But then it hit me that the gods that we humans have
invented aren't like this. Our gods are slightly modified humans. [...]
Now, I'll concede that the above is just a sampling. There must be
thousands of gods I know nothing about. I'd bet, though, that most of
the ones I don't know will turn out to have human thoughts and human values.
Yes, I suspect you’re right. I wondered on reading your summary whether the
conception of a god in a society as less human was an indication that the
society’s general religious belief was weaking, but I don’t think that’s so.
Modern Poland and Ireland of 40 years ago have and had strong religious belief
with a quite distant God.

Modern science (and the scientific method) as a belief system is closer to a
non-human god.
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
Steve Hayes
2024-12-21 10:17:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
This is wildly off-topic, as the subject line will indicate. But where
else can I find a bunch of people intelligent enough to discuss a
difficult topic? I know there are philosophy newsgroups, but they don't
have much traffic. Besides, the people posting there don't have an S in
their names, so they can't be real philosophers.
Well there is alt.culture.gods, where it would be on topic, so perhaps
those interested could initially crosspost there, and then continue
the discussion there.
Post by Peter Moylan
What started this train of thought was reading Simak's novel "A Choice
of Gods". I've put that book down where I was sure to find it, which is
not always a good idea, so now I can't quote from it directly. (It will
probably turn up a couple of years from now.) But I remember the
essential point.
Early in the book, humans have spread out through the galaxy, and they
have found traces of a very powerful entity near the galactic centre.
They know little about this entity, apart from seeing evidence that it
is powerful beyond anything humans can do. They can't communicate with
it because they can't get it to notice them.
This, very obviously, is a god or a god-like being. It has the obvious
attributes: very powerful, with powers beyond our understanding, and so
far beyond us intellectually that no communication is possible.
So far so good. But then it hit me that the gods that we humans have
invented aren't like this. Our gods are slightly modified humans.
The Christian god, for example, has some remarkable super-powers, but
otherwise is very noticeably human. In the popular imagination he is
still an old man in the sky. You can pray to him, and he will listen and
sometimes even answer. Even his moral values are surprisingly close to
human moral values.
The Jewish god is a little more strict, a little more aloof. Still, a
few human characteristics show through. And we do know that he used to
speak to people directly in the distant past.
I have less of an understanding of the Islamic god, because I can't read
Arabic, and apparently translations are insufficient. It seems to me,
though, that Muslims claim a personal relationship with their god, and
that couldn't happen if he was too different from humans.
The Hindu gods are confusing at first sight because some of them use
non-human bodies. Ultimately, though, I think they're human in their
attitudes.
With the Norse gods there's no doubt. Those gods are humans writ large.
Like their followers, they enjoy carousing and fighting.
Likewise for the old Greek gods. They were clearly just powerful humans.
Now, I'll concede that the above is just a sampling. There must be
thousands of gods I know nothing about. I'd bet, though, that most of
the ones I don't know will turn out to have human thoughts and human values.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Bertietaylor
2024-12-21 13:35:05 UTC
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There are plenty of gods and goddesses in Heaven, Moylan, the place we
inhabit.

Getting on, are we? Thinking of the afterlife? Read Arindam's book "The
Son of Hiranyaksh" for the most satisfying answers. As a five course
spiritual feast, it has no equal in any literature, absolutely worth
more than all the Nobels awarded. Such is the opinion of Heaven.

Woof-woof woof woof woof-woof woof woof-woof

Bertietaylor (Arindam's celestial cyberdoggies doing propaganda work for
Arindam from low Heaven)
Hibou
2024-12-21 14:42:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
This is wildly off-topic, as the subject line will indicate. But where
else can I find a bunch of people intelligent enough to discuss a
difficult topic? I know there are philosophy newsgroups, but they don't
have much traffic. Besides, the people posting there don't have an S in
their names, so they can't be real philosophers.
What started this train of thought was reading Simak's novel "A Choice
of Gods". I've put that book down where I was sure to find it, which is
not always a good idea, so now I can't quote from it directly. (It will
probably turn up a couple of years from now.) But I remember the
essential point.
Early in the book, humans have spread out through the galaxy, and they
have found traces of a very powerful entity near the galactic centre.
They know little about this entity, apart from seeing evidence that it
is powerful beyond anything humans can do. They can't communicate with
it because they can't get it to notice them.
This, very obviously, is a god or a god-like being. It has the obvious
attributes: very powerful, with powers beyond our understanding, and so
far beyond us intellectually that no communication is possible.
So far so good. But then it hit me that the gods that we humans have
invented aren't like this. Our gods are slightly modified humans.
The Christian god, for example, has some remarkable super-powers, but
otherwise is very noticeably human. In the popular imagination he is
still an old man in the sky. You can pray to him, and he will listen and
sometimes even answer. Even his moral values are surprisingly close to
human moral values.
The Jewish god is a little more strict, a little more aloof. Still, a
few human characteristics show through. And we do know that he used to
speak to people directly in the distant past.
I have less of an understanding of the Islamic god, because I can't read
Arabic, and apparently translations are insufficient. It seems to me,
though, that Muslims claim a personal relationship with their god, and
that couldn't happen if he was too different from humans.
The Hindu gods are confusing at first sight because some of them use
non-human bodies. Ultimately, though, I think they're human in their
attitudes.
With the Norse gods there's no doubt. Those gods are humans writ large.
Like their followers, they enjoy carousing and fighting.
Likewise for the old Greek gods. They were clearly just powerful humans.
Now, I'll concede that the above is just a sampling. There must be
thousands of gods I know nothing about. I'd bet, though, that most of
the ones I don't know will turn out to have human thoughts and human values.
Yes, man creates gods in his own image.

My working definition of gods has been that they are powerful
supernatural beings who take an interest in human affairs and whom it is
worth buttering up through prayer, sacrifice, flattery, and
self-abasement. Flattery? Yes, sing your god's praises to endear
yourself to him. The self-abasement is embarrassing. Man is at him most
ridiculous when kneeling or prostrating himself before Someone Who Isn't
There. (Mind you, he's pretty ridiculous when preaching humility at the
same time as believing that the Infinite is watching over him. Believers
should take a look at the Universe. It's really very big indeed.)

Anyway, this definition takes in Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Hindu gods,
as well as Jewish, Islamic, and Christian ones (Catholicism, with its
Trinity and its saints, can be seen to be polytheistic.)

It's all very human.
Bertietaylor
2024-12-21 16:57:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Peter Moylan
This is wildly off-topic, as the subject line will indicate. But where
else can I find a bunch of people intelligent enough to discuss a
difficult topic? I know there are philosophy newsgroups, but they don't
have much traffic. Besides, the people posting there don't have an S in
their names, so they can't be real philosophers.
What started this train of thought was reading Simak's novel "A Choice
of Gods". I've put that book down where I was sure to find it, which is
not always a good idea, so now I can't quote from it directly. (It will
probably turn up a couple of years from now.) But I remember the
essential point.
Early in the book, humans have spread out through the galaxy, and they
have found traces of a very powerful entity near the galactic centre.
They know little about this entity, apart from seeing evidence that it
is powerful beyond anything humans can do. They can't communicate with
it because they can't get it to notice them.
This, very obviously, is a god or a god-like being. It has the obvious
attributes: very powerful, with powers beyond our understanding, and so
far beyond us intellectually that no communication is possible.
So far so good. But then it hit me that the gods that we humans have
invented aren't like this. Our gods are slightly modified humans.
The Christian god, for example, has some remarkable super-powers, but
otherwise is very noticeably human. In the popular imagination he is
still an old man in the sky. You can pray to him, and he will listen and
sometimes even answer. Even his moral values are surprisingly close to
human moral values.
The Jewish god is a little more strict, a little more aloof. Still, a
few human characteristics show through. And we do know that he used to
speak to people directly in the distant past.
I have less of an understanding of the Islamic god, because I can't read
Arabic, and apparently translations are insufficient. It seems to me,
though, that Muslims claim a personal relationship with their god, and
that couldn't happen if he was too different from humans.
The Hindu gods are confusing at first sight because some of them use
non-human bodies. Ultimately, though, I think they're human in their
attitudes.
With the Norse gods there's no doubt. Those gods are humans writ large.
Like their followers, they enjoy carousing and fighting.
Likewise for the old Greek gods. They were clearly just powerful humans.
Now, I'll concede that the above is just a sampling. There must be
thousands of gods I know nothing about. I'd bet, though, that most of
the ones I don't know will turn out to have human thoughts and human values.
Yes, man creates gods in his own image.
The Jew God does the reverse.
Post by Hibou
My working definition of gods has been that they are powerful
supernatural beings who take an interest in human affairs and whom it is
worth buttering up through prayer, sacrifice, flattery, and
self-abasement.
Gods are composed of principled spirits while demons are composed of
unscrupulous spirits. Both gods and demons are powerful and useful.

Flattery? Yes, sing your god's praises to endear
Post by Hibou
yourself to him. The self-abasement is embarrassing. Man is at him most
ridiculous when kneeling or prostrating himself before Someone Who Isn't
There.
Disgusting by far to self-abuse to Someone who is there.




(Mind you, he's pretty ridiculous when preaching humility at the
Post by Hibou
same time as believing that the Infinite is watching over him. Believers
should take a look at the Universe. It's really very big indeed.)
It is infinite and eternal, no beginning nor end.
Post by Hibou
Anyway, this definition takes in Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Hindu gods,
Not Hindu gods. Don't get presumptuous. The Hindu metaphysics is far far
superior and correct too. And why not, it is the oldest.
Post by Hibou
as well as Jewish, Islamic, and Christian ones (Catholicism, with its
Trinity and its saints, can be seen to be polytheistic.)
It's all very human.
Corruption is human, yes. Nothing more corrupt than the corruption of
Hinduism save the corruption of physics by the Einsteinian
pseudoscientific.

Woof-woof woof woof-woof woof

Bertietaylor
Silvano
2024-12-21 18:50:26 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Hibou
My working definition of gods has been that they are powerful
supernatural beings who take an interest in human affairs and whom it is
worth buttering up through prayer, sacrifice, flattery, and
self-abasement. Flattery? Yes, sing your god's praises to endear
yourself to him. The self-abasement is embarrassing. Man is at him most
ridiculous when kneeling or prostrating himself before Someone Who Isn't
There.
_IF_ God exists, men and women are pretty ridiculous to them.
Janet
2024-12-21 20:03:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Hibou
My working definition of gods has been that they are powerful
supernatural beings who take an interest in human affairs and whom it is
worth buttering up through prayer, sacrifice, flattery, and
self-abasement. Flattery? Yes, sing your god's praises to endear
yourself to him. The self-abasement is embarrassing. Man is at him most
ridiculous when kneeling or prostrating himself before Someone Who Isn't
There.
_IF_ God exists, men and women are pretty ridiculous to them.
"When God created man, she was only joking"

Janet
Sam Plusnet
2024-12-21 20:34:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Peter Moylan
This is wildly off-topic, as the subject line will indicate. But where
else can I find a bunch of people intelligent enough to discuss a
difficult topic? I know there are philosophy newsgroups, but they don't
have much traffic. Besides, the people posting there don't have an S in
their names, so they can't be real philosophers.
What started this train of thought was reading Simak's novel "A Choice
of Gods". I've put that book down where I was sure to find it, which is
not always a good idea, so now I can't quote from it directly. (It will
probably turn up a couple of years from now.) But I remember the
essential point.
Early in the book, humans have spread out through the galaxy, and they
have found traces of a very powerful entity near the galactic centre.
They know little about this entity, apart from seeing evidence that it
is powerful beyond anything humans can do. They can't communicate with
it because they can't get it to notice them.
This, very obviously, is a god or a god-like being. It has the obvious
attributes: very powerful, with powers beyond our understanding, and so
far beyond us intellectually that no communication is possible.
So far so good. But then it hit me that the gods that we humans have
invented aren't like this. Our gods are slightly modified humans.
The Christian god, for example, has some remarkable super-powers, but
otherwise is very noticeably human. In the popular imagination he is
still an old man in the sky. You can pray to him, and he will listen and
sometimes even answer. Even his moral values are surprisingly close to
human moral values.
The Jewish god is a little more strict, a little more aloof. Still, a
few human characteristics show through. And we do know that he used to
speak to people directly in the distant past.
I have less of an understanding of the Islamic god, because I can't read
Arabic, and apparently translations are insufficient. It seems to me,
though, that Muslims claim a personal relationship with their god, and
that couldn't happen if he was too different from humans.
The Hindu gods are confusing at first sight because some of them use
non-human bodies. Ultimately, though, I think they're human in their
attitudes.
With the Norse gods there's no doubt. Those gods are humans writ large.
Like their followers, they enjoy carousing and fighting.
Likewise for the old Greek gods. They were clearly just powerful humans.
Now, I'll concede that the above is just a sampling. There must be
thousands of gods I know nothing about. I'd bet, though, that most of
the ones I don't know will turn out to have human thoughts and human values.
Yes, man creates gods in his own image.
My working definition of gods has been that they are powerful
supernatural beings who take an interest in human affairs and whom it is
worth buttering up through prayer, sacrifice, flattery, and self-
abasement. Flattery? Yes, sing your god's praises to endear yourself to
him. The self-abasement is embarrassing. Man is at him most ridiculous
when kneeling or prostrating himself before Someone Who Isn't There.
(Mind you, he's pretty ridiculous when preaching humility at the same
time as believing that the Infinite is watching over him. Believers
should take a look at the Universe. It's really very big indeed.)
Anyway, this definition takes in Greek, Roman, Egyptian, and Hindu gods,
as well as Jewish, Islamic, and Christian ones (Catholicism, with its
Trinity and its saints, can be seen to be polytheistic.)
It's all very human.
Should we return to the idea that Gods were to be placated, but belief
was not a requirement?
--
Sam Plusnet
Paul Wolff
2024-12-21 20:05:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
This is wildly off-topic, as the subject line will indicate. But where
else can I find a bunch of people intelligent enough to discuss a
difficult topic? I know there are philosophy newsgroups, but they don't
have much traffic. Besides, the people posting there don't have an S in
their names, so they can't be real philosophers.
What started this train of thought was reading Simak's novel "A Choice
of Gods". I've put that book down where I was sure to find it, which is
not always a good idea, so now I can't quote from it directly. (It will
probably turn up a couple of years from now.) But I remember the
essential point.
Early in the book, humans have spread out through the galaxy, and they
have found traces of a very powerful entity near the galactic centre.
They know little about this entity, apart from seeing evidence that it
is powerful beyond anything humans can do. They can't communicate with
it because they can't get it to notice them.
This, very obviously, is a god or a god-like being. It has the obvious
attributes: very powerful, with powers beyond our understanding, and so
far beyond us intellectually that no communication is possible.
So far so good. But then it hit me that the gods that we humans have
invented aren't like this. Our gods are slightly modified humans.
The Christian god, for example, has some remarkable super-powers, but
otherwise is very noticeably human.
Not at all. Unknowable, as I understand Christianity.
Post by Peter Moylan
In the popular imagination he is
still an old man in the sky. You can pray to him, and he will listen and
sometimes even answer. Even his moral values are surprisingly close to
human moral values.
The Jewish god is a little more strict, a little more aloof.
Not at all. Unknowable, as I understand Judaism.
Post by Peter Moylan
Still, a
few human characteristics show through. And we do know that he used to
speak to people directly in the distant past.
I have less of an understanding of the Islamic god, because I can't read
Arabic, and apparently translations are insufficient. It seems to me,
though, that Muslims claim a personal relationship with their god, and
that couldn't happen if he was too different from humans.
The Hindu gods are confusing at first sight because some of them use
non-human bodies. Ultimately, though, I think they're human in their
attitudes.
With the Norse gods there's no doubt. Those gods are humans writ large.
Like their followers, they enjoy carousing and fighting.
Likewise for the old Greek gods. They were clearly just powerful humans.
Now, I'll concede that the above is just a sampling. There must be
thousands of gods I know nothing about. I'd bet, though, that most of
the ones I don't know will turn out to have human thoughts and human values.
That's the best most peoples can imagine.

One question that intrigues me is why (nearly?) every human society has
invented the idea of a god or gods, and then found that idea impossible
to eradicate - with the possible exception of the Society of Actuaries.
--
Paul W
Aidan Kehoe
2024-12-21 20:26:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[...] One question that intrigues me is why (nearly?) every human society
has invented the idea of a god or gods, and then found that idea impossible
to eradicate - with the possible exception of the Society of Actuaries.
The most clear-eyed people who have ever existed about mortality. If you are
working and feel you are basically healthy, but are interested in living longer
and in better health than otherwise, apply for income protection for your full
current income. You will get a thorough questionnaire and every question on it
will matter financially to them; the right answer is usually fairly clear, if
it is something you can change for the better (e.g. smoking, body mass index),
change it for the better.

You can equally go to your doctor and have much the same conversation, but
sometimes the idea that substantial financial sums come into play is more
motivating.
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
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