Discussion:
opposite
(too old to reply)
a***@gmail.com
2020-03-17 05:54:50 UTC
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1) The opposite than what was expected happened.
2) The opposite than was expected happened.

3) He did the opposite than what he had promised.
4) He did the opposite than he had promised.

Which of the above are grammatical?
Which are idiomatic?

Gratefully, and hoping you are well,
Navi
Mark Brader
2020-03-17 06:44:34 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
1) The opposite than what was expected happened.
2) The opposite than was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised.
4) He did the opposite than he had promised.
All wrong. "Opposite" takes "of", or sometimes "to", but never "than".
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "It was too crazy to be true,
***@vex.net | and too crazy to be false." --Tom Clancy
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-03-17 07:20:55 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
1) The opposite than what was expected happened.
2) The opposite than was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised.
4) He did the opposite than he had promised.
Which of the above are grammatical?
None of them, at least in British English, where "opposite" can't be
followed by "than".
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which are idiomatic?
None of them.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2020-03-17 13:11:50 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
1) The opposite than what was expected happened.
2) The opposite than was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised.
4) He did the opposite than he had promised.
Which of the above are grammatical?
Which are idiomatic?
Gratefully, and hoping you are well,
Navi
None. "Opposite" takes "from" or maybe "to."
Ken Blake
2020-03-17 15:49:45 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
1) The opposite than what was expected happened.
2) The opposite than was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised.
4) He did the opposite than he had promised.
Which of the above are grammatical?
None.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which are idiomatic?
None.

Change "than" to "of."
--
Ken
CDB
2020-03-17 18:35:41 UTC
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Post by Ken Blake
1) The opposite than what was expected happened. 2) The opposite
than was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised. 4) He did the
opposite than he had promised.
Which of the above are grammatical?
None.
Which are idiomatic?
None.
Change "than" to "of."
Navi may be using the group to test the difference between "opposite"
and "different", which can be followed by "than" in some dialects under
the right circumstances.

What happened was different than he expected.
Eric Walker
2020-03-19 01:37:48 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
1) The opposite than what was expected happened.
2) The opposite than was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised.
4) He did the opposite than he had promised.
Which of the above are grammatical?
Which are idiomatic?
None & none (sounds like a folk group).

1a) The opposite of what was expected happened.
2a) [No simple remedy.]

3a) He did the opposite of what he had promised.
4a) [Ditto]

In English, knowing what prepositions are wanted is not a matter of logic
but of brute-force case-by-case memorization.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-03-19 07:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Walker
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) The opposite than what was expected happened.
2) The opposite than was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised.
4) He did the opposite than he had promised.
Which of the above are grammatical?
Which are idiomatic?
None & none (sounds like a folk group).
1a) The opposite of what was expected happened.
2a) [No simple remedy.]
3a) He did the opposite of what he had promised.
4a) [Ditto]
In English, knowing what prepositions are wanted is not a matter of logic
but of brute-force case-by-case memorization.
Not just in English: prepositions are the hardest parts of speech to
convert between different languages. French "pour"/"par" and Spanish
"para"/"por" occupy approximately the same territory, but they divide
it up differently.
--
athel
Spains Harden
2020-03-19 17:11:34 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
1) The opposite than what was expected happened.
2) The opposite than was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised.
4) He did the opposite than he had promised.
Which of the above are grammatical?
Which are idiomatic?
They are all idiomatic. People have been quibbling about "different
than" since Shakespeare made it legitimate, and I would put "opposite
than" "in equal case" if I may quote Sheridan.

If people find them ungrammatical, they are the audience you need
convince.
Spains Harden
2020-03-19 18:27:41 UTC
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Post by Spains Harden
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) The opposite than what was expected happened.
2) The opposite than was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised.
4) He did the opposite than he had promised.
Which of the above are grammatical?
Which are idiomatic?
They are all idiomatic. People have been quibbling about "different
than" since Shakespeare made it legitimate, and I would put "opposite
than" "in equal case" if I may quote Sheridan.
I'm quoting Edmund Spenser aren't I?

The Faerie Queen: "Sir Knight..." and all that? Everything seems to be
closed down.
CDB
2020-03-19 20:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spains Harden
1) The opposite than what was expected happened. 2) The opposite
than was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised. 4) He did the
opposite than he had promised.
Which of the above are grammatical? Which are idiomatic?
They are all idiomatic. People have been quibbling about "different
than" since Shakespeare made it legitimate, and I would put
"opposite than" "in equal case" if I may quote Sheridan.
One important difference is that "different" is an adjective and "the
opposite" is a noun.

Some people use "than" with "different" as a conjunction when its
complement is a clause: "it was different than he had promised".

That seems to me a sensible and useful distinction.
Post by Spains Harden
If people find them ungrammatical, they are the audience you need
convince.
Eric Walker
2020-03-19 21:43:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
Post by Spains Harden
1) The opposite than what was expected happened. 2) The opposite than
was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised. 4) He did the
opposite than he had promised.
Which of the above are grammatical? Which are idiomatic?
They are all idiomatic. People have been quibbling about "different
than" since Shakespeare made it legitimate, and I would put "opposite
than" "in equal case" if I may quote Sheridan.
One important difference is that "different" is an adjective and "the
opposite" is a noun.
Some people use "than" with "different" as a conjunction when its
complement is a clause: "it was different than he had promised".
That seems to me a sensible and useful distinction.
Post by Spains Harden
If people find them ungrammatical, they are the audience you need
convince.
"Different than/from/to" is a sempiternal issue in English usage, and one
that is viewed differently from the opposite sides of the pond. Wilson
Follett wrote that:

"Prevailing British usage is divided between 'different to' and
'different from'. In the United States, 'different to' is almost
nonexistent, and sounds odd to Americans when they encounter it in
British novels. In both England and the United States there is an
increasing tendency to follow 'different' and 'differently' with
'than'. When challenged, 'than' is sometimes defended with the argument
that 'other' and 'otherwise'--logically equivalent to 'different' and
'differently'--are idiomatically followed by 'than'. Sometimes the
argument is rather that 'from' after 'different' leads to wordiness.

Both arguments have merit. But the first does not dispose of the
educated American's strong feeling that 'different from' is idiomatic
and hence inviolable; and the second does not dispose of the writer's
implicit obligation to find alternative ways of expressing thoughts that
work out awkwardly in the forms that first occur to him."

The full discussion (in his _Modern American usage_ is rewarding reading.

In many cases, simply substituting 'other' or 'otherwise" suffices.

Incidentally, uses by Shakespeare, or any other eminent writer of the
past, do not in themselves control modern English forms.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker
Peter T. Daniels
2020-03-20 13:11:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Eric Walker
Post by CDB
Post by Spains Harden
1) The opposite than what was expected happened. 2) The opposite than
was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised. 4) He did the
opposite than he had promised.
Which of the above are grammatical? Which are idiomatic?
They are all idiomatic. People have been quibbling about "different
than" since Shakespeare made it legitimate, and I would put "opposite
than" "in equal case" if I may quote Sheridan.
One important difference is that "different" is an adjective and "the
opposite" is a noun.
Some people use "than" with "different" as a conjunction when its
complement is a clause: "it was different than he had promised".
That seems to me a sensible and useful distinction.
Post by Spains Harden
If people find them ungrammatical, they are the audience you need
convince.
"Different than/from/to" is a sempiternal issue in English usage, and one
that is viewed differently from the opposite sides of the pond. Wilson
Follett
Jacques Barzun, probably
Post by Eric Walker
"Prevailing British usage is divided between 'different to' and
'different from'. In the United States, 'different to' is almost
nonexistent, and sounds odd to Americans when they encounter it in
British novels. In both England and the United States there is an
increasing tendency to follow 'different' and 'differently' with
'than'. When challenged, 'than' is sometimes defended with the argument
that 'other' and 'otherwise'--logically equivalent to 'different' and
'differently'--are idiomatically followed by 'than'. Sometimes the
argument is rather that 'from' after 'different' leads to wordiness.
Both arguments have merit. But the first does not dispose of the
educated American's strong feeling that 'different from' is idiomatic
and hence inviolable; and the second does not dispose of the writer's
implicit obligation to find alternative ways of expressing thoughts that
work out awkwardly in the forms that first occur to him."
The full discussion (in his _Modern American usage_ is rewarding reading.
In many cases, simply substituting 'other' or 'otherwise" suffices.
Barzun's edition of a partial manuscript by Follett is well over half
a century old. It was obsolete when it was published and is more so now.
Post by Eric Walker
Incidentally, uses by Shakespeare, or any other eminent writer of the
past, do not in themselves control modern English forms.
They do, however, prove that the "errors" that prescriptivists scream
about are no such thing, but have been part of the English language
for nearly half a millennium at least.

Peter T. Daniels
2020-03-19 21:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Spains Harden
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) The opposite than what was expected happened.
2) The opposite than was expected happened.
3) He did the opposite than what he had promised.
4) He did the opposite than he had promised.
Which of the above are grammatical?
Which are idiomatic?
They are all idiomatic. People have been quibbling about "different
than" since Shakespeare made it legitimate, and I would put "opposite
than" "in equal case" if I may quote Sheridan.
If people find them ungrammatical, they are the audience you need
convince.
It's not grammar, it's lexicon. Different words take different prepositions
or particles.
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