Hat trick

[Peter Moylan]

In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.

Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row. When did the term start
being weakened in this way? And are hats still awarded?

[musika]

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.

First used in 1858. A collection was taken among the crowd and a hat was
purchased with the proceeds and presented to the player.

Post by Peter Moylan
Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to  much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row. When did the term start
being weakened in this way? And are hats still awarded?

First used in football in 1878 when the first hat-trick in an
international match was scored.

[Snidely]

Post by musika

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.

First used in 1858. A collection was taken among the crowd and a hat was
purchased with the proceeds and presented to the player.

Post by Peter Moylan
Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to  much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row. When did the term start
being weakened in this way? And are hats still awarded?

First used in football in 1878 when the first hat-trick in an international
match was scored.

Long used in hockey for a player who scores 3 goals in a game, often
accompaned by fans throwing hats onto the ice. Generally dozens of
hats make it into the playing area.

/dps

[Ross Clark]

Post by musika

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.

First used in 1858. A collection was taken among the crowd and a hat was
purchased with the proceeds and presented  to the player.

Documentation, please?
The date is undoubtedly the date of the match All England vs Hallam and
Stavely, during which H.H.Stephenson performed this feat. The scorecard,
which is (or was) online, confirms this.
The difficulty is that the Manchester Guardian's account of the match,
as it was played, does not even mention Stephenson's achievement, much
less use the term "hat trick", or make any reference to the supposed
collection and presentation of the hat.
That's where we got to after extensive discussion of the matter here in
2011. But perhaps better evidence has come to light since then?

Post by musika

Post by Peter Moylan
Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to  much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row. When did the term start
being weakened in this way? And are hats still awarded?

First used in football in 1878 when the first hat-trick in an
international match was scored.

Details, please?
Again from the earlier discussion -- we were unable to find "hat trick"
used even in cricket before the late 1870s. The extension to other
sports (and eventually to non-sporting contexts) did not begin until
about 1920. The deed may well have been done in football in 1878, but do
you have evidence that people called it a "hat trick"?

[Ross Clark]

Post by musika

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.

First used in 1858. A collection was taken among the crowd and a hat was
purchased with the proceeds and presented  to the player.

Post by Peter Moylan
Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to  much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row. When did the term start
being weakened in this way? And are hats still awarded?

First used in football in 1878 when the first hat-trick in an
international match was scored.

Apologies for failing to mention a couple of pre-datings which have
appeared in OED since the 2011 discussion. They have a cricket use from
the Daily Bristol Times, 1868. This is certainly within hailing distance
of 1858, but I'm still puzzled at why Stephenson's performance
(apparently the first) did not leave more of a paper trail.

In other sports, OED now has uses from 1893 (horse racing, "riding three
winners in as many mounts") and 1901 (football). And beyond sport, they
have one from 1899 referring to someone winning an essay competition
three years running.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.
Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row. When did the term start
being weakened in this way? And are hats still awarded?

WIWAL it was in common use.

Concerning cricket dialects:

Oz has batters and fieldsmen.
South Africa has batsmen and fielders.

In Oz the batting team are 3 for 54.
In South Africa the batting team are 54 for 3.

But when commentators from either country speak of batters/batsmen
"stepping up to the plate" one wonders if they realise that that's a
whole 'nother ball game.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.
Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row. When did the term start
being weakened in this way? And are hats still awarded?

WIWAL it was in common use.
Oz has batters and fieldsmen.
South Africa has batsmen and fielders.
In Oz the batting team are 3 for 54.
In South Africa the batting team are 54 for 3.
But when commentators from either country speak of batters/batsmen
"stepping up to the plate" one wonders if they realise that that's a
whole 'nother ball game.

Well spotted.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.
Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row. When did the term start
being weakened in this way? And are hats still awarded?

WIWAL it was in common use.
Oz has batters and fieldsmen.
South Africa has batsmen and fielders.
In Oz the batting team are 3 for 54.
In South Africa the batting team are 54 for 3.
But when commentators from either country speak of batters/batsmen
"stepping up to the plate" one wonders if they realise that that's a
whole 'nother ball game.

Yes, they were certainly caught on the back foot there.

[Rich Ulrich]

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.
Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row. When did the term start
being weakened in this way? And are hats still awarded?

I learned the term long ago, from local ice hockey.

Google -
A hat trick is three scores in a row or in the same game. It's most
commonly used in hockey for when a player gets three goals in a
single game. This term originally applied to the retiring of three
batsmen with three consecutive balls by a bowler in cricket.

I figure it could be more common in hockey simply because it is not
as rare. No actual hats are awarded.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Rich Ulrich

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.
Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row. When did the term start
being weakened in this way? And are hats still awarded?

I learned the term long ago, from local ice hockey.
Google -
A hat trick is three scores in a row or in the same game. It's most
commonly used in hockey for when a player gets three goals in a
single game. This term originally applied to the retiring of three
batsmen with three consecutive balls by a bowler in cricket.
I figure it could be more common in hockey simply because it is not
as rare. No actual hats are awarded.

They are in Canadian professional hockey, though 'awarded' may be a
stretch. When a player accomplished a hat trick, many spectators will
throw hat onto the ice surface. Sometimes the number of hats is astonishing.

Last year, at a Regina Pats game (Western Hockey League, We had been
sitting next to a fellow for most of the season, and had come to a loose
friendship. One evening a player scored three goals, and I reached over
and pulled his hat off and pretended I was throwing it.

Many laughs were had, by him and me.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by lar3ryca
Last year, at a Regina Pats game (Western Hockey League, We had been
sitting next to a fellow for most of the season, and had come to a loose
friendship. One evening a player scored three goals, and I reached over
and pulled his hat off and pretended I was throwing it.
Many laughs were had, by him and me.

Top Hat's gone!

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 08:43:26 +0200

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by lar3ryca
Last year, at a Regina Pats game (Western Hockey League, We had been
sitting next to a fellow for most of the season, and had come to a loose
friendship. One evening a player scored three goals, and I reached over
and pulled his hat off and pretended I was throwing it.
Many laughs were had, by him and me.

Top Hat's gone!

I preferred being the Boot.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan
Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row. When did the term start
being weakened in this way? And are hats still awarded?

I knew "hat trick" as a school boy. That was three goals in a row. We
almost exclusively talked about soccer. In handball you don't score a
hat trick because so many goals are scored that it's trivial. A score of
say 20-15 is a game with few goals.

[occam]

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.
Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to  much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row.

In football, the achievement is even weaker than that. Three goals by
one player, but not necessarily in a row. If a second player B scores
between the three goals of player A, it still counts as a hat trick for
player A.

Post by Peter Moylan
When did the term start
being weakened in this way?

The moment football borrowed the term from cricket, I would think.

Post by Peter Moylan
And are hats still awarded?

[Silvano]

Post by occam

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.
Lately, in football commentary, I've heard "hat trick" to refer to much
lesser achievements, like three goals in a row.

In football, the achievement is even weaker than that. Three goals by
one player, but not necessarily in a row. If a second player B scores
between the three goals of player A, it still counts as a hat trick for
player A.

AFAIK it must be three goals by the same player in one half-time, more
difficult than in a whole game, but still much more common than the
requirement in cricket.
You're right: not necessarily in a row. Also, it does not matter if B
belongs to the same team or to their opponents.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Silvano
AFAIK it must be three goals by the same player in one half-time, more
difficult than in a whole game, but still much more common than the
requirement in cricket.

I haven't met the requirement that it must be in one half-time. I don't
even remember that being mentioned as particularly great, but of course
it is.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I haven't met the requirement that it must be in one half-time. I don't
even remember that being mentioned as particularly great, but of course
it is.

I just looked at the Danish Wikipedia about "hattrick". The definition
says that scoring three in a game is enough, but it later defines a
"genuine hattrick" as one where it is done in a halftime, and a "super
genuine hattrick" if nobody scores in between. I haven't met the two
special designations before.

The article also claims that the origin is bow shooting in the Middle
Ages where hats were shot off three mannequins.

I am not sure that the article is reliable. There is no documentation
for the claims.

[Hibou]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I haven't met the requirement that it must be in one half-time. I don't
even remember that being mentioned as particularly great, but of course
it is.

I just looked at the Danish Wikipedia about "hattrick". The definition
says that scoring three in a game is enough, but it later defines a
"genuine hattrick" as one where it is done in a halftime, and a "super
genuine hattrick" if nobody scores in between. I haven't met the two
special designations before.
The article also claims that the origin is bow shooting in the Middle
Ages where hats were shot off three mannequins.
I am not sure that the article is reliable. There is no documentation
for the claims.

OED:

1. "Any trick with a hat", e.g. producing a rabbit... 1840 on;

2.a In cricket, "a bowler taking three wickets with three successive
balls," the reward being a new hat... 1868 on;

2.b In other sports... 1893 on - e.g. "... riding three winners in as
many mounts."

3. "A strategy in which a Member of Parliament places a hat on a seat in
the House of Commons in order to reserve it during an absence.
/Obsolete. rare./"


Talking of rabbits - this is borrowed from fr.lettres.langue.anglaise:

A priest, a pastor, and a rabbit walked into a blood-donation clinic.

The nurse greeted them warmly and asked the priest, "What is your blood
type, Father?"

The priest replied, "I am a type A."

Next, the nurse turned to the pastor and asked, "And you, Pastor, what
is your blood type?"

The pastor responded, "I am a type B."

Finally, the nurse looked at the rabbit and asked, "What is your blood
type?"

The rabbit replied, "I think I'm a type O."

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I just looked at the Danish Wikipedia about "hattrick". The definition
says that scoring three in a game is enough, but it later defines a
"genuine hattrick" as one where it is done in a halftime, and a "super
genuine hattrick" if nobody scores in between. I haven't met the two
special designations before.

I think in English (at least in hockey announcer parlance) the rarer
distinction is the "natural hat trick" -- but I'm not sure (having not
looked it up as I'm sure I could) whether that's three consecutively,
or three in the same period, or something even more unusual.

Hockey also distinguishes, in the offensive statistics, between
"points" and "goals": a goal is awarded to the last member of the
offensive team to play the puck (whether or not any members of the
defending team touched it), an assist is awarded to at most two other
players who advanced the puck without a stoppage in play or a change
of possession, and then points are the sum of goals and assists.
(Thus, it is technically possible for a player to earn a point on a
goal scored after they have left the ice.) It is much more common for
an NHL player to score 100 points in a season than 100 goals.

-GAWollman

[lar3ryca]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I just looked at the Danish Wikipedia about "hattrick". The definition
says that scoring three in a game is enough, but it later defines a
"genuine hattrick" as one where it is done in a halftime, and a "super
genuine hattrick" if nobody scores in between. I haven't met the two
special designations before.

I think in English (at least in hockey announcer parlance) the rarer
distinction is the "natural hat trick" -- but I'm not sure (having not
looked it up as I'm sure I could) whether that's three consecutively,
or three in the same period, or something even more unusual.

"Natural hat trick" is used in both amateur and professional hockey (in
North America) to mean that a player has scored three goals in a game,
without any other goals being scored between them.

A jocular form of a hat trick is called a "Gordie Howe hat trick".
It's when a player collects a goal, an assist, and a fight in the same game.

The funny thing is that they are not very common.

Wikipedia has a page for it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordie_Howe_hat_trick

Post by Garrett Wollman
Hockey also distinguishes, in the offensive statistics, between
"points" and "goals": a goal is awarded to the last member of the
offensive team to play the puck (whether or not any members of the
defending team touched it), an assist is awarded to at most two other
players who advanced the puck without a stoppage in play or a change
of possession, and then points are the sum of goals and assists.
(Thus, it is technically possible for a player to earn a point on a
goal scored after they have left the ice.) It is much more common for
an NHL player to score 100 points in a season than 100 goals.
-GAWollman

[Ross Clark]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I haven't met the requirement that it must be in one half-time. I don't
even remember that being mentioned as particularly great, but of course
it is.

I just looked at the Danish Wikipedia about "hattrick". The definition
says that scoring three in a game is enough, but it later defines a
"genuine hattrick" as one where it is done in a halftime, and a "super
genuine hattrick" if nobody scores in between. I haven't met the two
special designations before.
The article also claims that the origin is bow shooting in the Middle
Ages where hats were shot off three mannequins.
I am not sure that the article is reliable. There is no documentation
for the claims.

I'm even more skeptical about that origin story than about the
"presenting a hat" one. Were the cricket players and fans of the
mid-19th century that familiar with medieval bow-shooting? At the very
least I'd want an actual medieval text detailing this practice.

Similarly, I have heard many origin-stories of the "presenting player
with a hat" and also the "throwing hats into the playing area" kind.
But what I've found is that all the stories were of quite modern date;
early accounts describing hat-giving or throwing (for instance at the
1858 cricket match) proved remarkably elusive.

I'm aware that OED gives this explanation for the sporting sense of "hat
trick", but I note that they do not have it in their "Etymology"
section. I think that is significant.

Here's what I think happened. The earliest sense of the phrase "hat
trick" (OED from 1840) refers to a trick performed by a stage magician
-- taking a rabbit out of a hat is the best known example. When a
cricket bowler first managed the feat of retiring three batsmen with
three successive balls, it was so amazing that it seemed like magic. The
"hat trick" phrase was thus naturally applied to it.

Once the term was established, as time went on, people perhaps lost
track of its origin and asked "Why do we call it that? What has this got
to do with hats?" In response, other people made up the origin stories.
In some cases they even "enacted" these origin stories: "The guy scored
a hat trick; let's buy him a new hat." or "Let's all throw our hats onto
the ice, the way people used to do."

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Ross Clark
Here's what I think happened. The earliest sense of the phrase "hat
trick" (OED from 1840) refers to a trick performed by a stage magician
-- taking a rabbit out of a hat is the best known example. When a
cricket bowler first managed the feat of retiring three batsmen with
three successive balls, it was so amazing that it seemed like magic. The
"hat trick" phrase was thus naturally applied to it.

A very sensible explanation. The other efforts haven't explained what
"trick" has got to do with scoring goals.

[jerryfriedman]

..

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
The article also claims that the origin is bow shooting in the Middle
Ages where hats were shot off three mannequins.
I am not sure that the article is reliable. There is no documentation
for the claims.

I'm even more skeptical about that origin story than about the
"presenting a hat" one. Were the cricket players and fans of the
mid-19th century that familiar with medieval bow-shooting? At the very
least I'd want an actual medieval text detailing this practice.
Similarly, I have heard many origin-stories of the "presenting player
with a hat" and also the "throwing hats into the playing area" kind.
But what I've found is that all the stories were of quite modern date;
early accounts describing hat-giving or throwing (for instance at the
1858 cricket match) proved remarkably elusive.

That prompted me to search, and I found

"Mellor and Brice were all there in the second innings.
The former got three wickets in one over, and was duly
presented with a new hat by the Eleven."

/The Cheltonian/, Oct. 1866, page 224. You can see the
date on page 187.

https://books.google.com/books?id=nPgHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA224

Post by Ross Clark
I'm aware that OED gives this explanation for the sporting sense of "hat
trick", but I note that they do not have it in their "Etymology"
section. I think that is significant.
Here's what I think happened. The earliest sense of the phrase "hat
trick" (OED from 1840) refers to a trick performed by a stage magician
-- taking a rabbit out of a hat is the best known example. When a
cricket bowler first managed the feat of retiring three batsmen with
three successive balls, it was so amazing that it seemed like magic. The
"hat trick" phrase was thus naturally applied to it.
Once the term was established, as time went on, people perhaps lost
track of its origin and asked "Why do we call it that? What has this got
to do with hats?" In response, other people made up the origin stories.
In some cases they even "enacted" these origin stories: "The guy scored
a hat trick; let's buy him a new hat." or "Let's all throw our hats onto
the ice, the way people used to do."

It seems that if that happened, the first instance was
very early.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ross Clark]

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
The article also claims that the origin is bow shooting in the Middle
Ages where hats were shot off three mannequins.
I am not sure that the article is reliable. There is no documentation
for the claims.

I'm even more skeptical about that origin story than about the
"presenting a hat" one. Were the cricket players and fans of the
mid-19th century that familiar with medieval bow-shooting? At the very
least I'd want an actual medieval text detailing this practice.
Similarly, I have heard many origin-stories of the "presenting player
with a hat" and also the "throwing hats into the playing area" kind.
But what I've found is that all the stories were of quite modern date;
early accounts describing hat-giving or throwing (for instance at the
1858 cricket match) proved remarkably elusive.

That prompted me to search, and I found
"Mellor and Brice were all there in the second innings.
The former got three wickets in one over, and was duly
presented with a new hat by the Eleven."
/The Cheltonian/, Oct. 1866, page 224.  You can see the
date on page 187.
https://books.google.com/books?id=nPgHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA224

Post by Ross Clark
I'm aware that OED gives this explanation for the sporting sense of "hat
trick", but I note that they do not have it in their "Etymology"
section. I think that is significant.
Here's what I think happened. The earliest sense of the phrase "hat
trick" (OED from 1840) refers to a trick performed by a stage magician
-- taking a rabbit out of a hat is the best known example. When a
cricket bowler first managed the feat of retiring three batsmen with
three successive balls, it was so amazing that it seemed like magic. The
"hat trick" phrase was thus naturally applied to it.
Once the term was established, as time went on, people perhaps lost
track of its origin and asked "Why do we call it that? What has this got
to do with hats?" In response, other people made up the origin stories.
In some cases they even "enacted" these origin stories: "The guy scored
a hat trick; let's buy him a new hat." or "Let's all throw our hats onto
the ice, the way people used to do."

It seems that if that happened, the first instance was
very early.
--
Jerry Friedman

I did actually hope that my skeptical account would provoke someone into
finding a really early story, and by Jove you've done it!

But why a hat? Were they simply punning on the magic-trick term, which
had already been applied?

What would be really good would be to find a full account of the 1858
match. Surely someone who was there must have written about it more
fully than the Guardian was able to do.

[jerryfriedman]

..

Post by Ross Clark

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Ross Clark
Similarly, I have heard many origin-stories of the "presenting player
with a hat" and also the "throwing hats into the playing area" kind.
But what I've found is that all the stories were of quite modern date;
early accounts describing hat-giving or throwing (for instance at the
1858 cricket match) proved remarkably elusive.

That prompted me to search, and I found
"Mellor and Brice were all there in the second innings.
The former got three wickets in one over, and was duly
presented with a new hat by the Eleven."
/The Cheltonian/, Oct. 1866, page 224.  You can see the
date on page 187.
https://books.google.com/books?id=nPgHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA224

..

Post by Ross Clark
I did actually hope that my skeptical account would provoke someone into
finding a really early story, and by Jove you've done it!

A pleasure, but you could have found it by an easy search
in the same time you needed to give your skeptical account.

Post by Ross Clark
But why a hat? Were they simply punning on the magic-trick term, which
had already been applied?

Maybe if early uses called it a "hat trick".

Post by Ross Clark
What would be really good would be to find a full account of the 1858
match. Surely someone who was there must have written about it more
fully than the Guardian was able to do.

One would think.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
The article also claims that the origin is bow shooting in the Middle
Ages where hats were shot off three mannequins.
I am not sure that the article is reliable. There is no documentation
for the claims.

I'm even more skeptical about that origin story than about the
"presenting a hat" one. Were the cricket players and fans of the
mid-19th century that familiar with medieval bow-shooting? At the very
least I'd want an actual medieval text detailing this practice.
Similarly, I have heard many origin-stories of the "presenting player
with a hat" and also the "throwing hats into the playing area" kind.
But what I've found is that all the stories were of quite modern date;
early accounts describing hat-giving or throwing (for instance at the
1858 cricket match) proved remarkably elusive.

That prompted me to search, and I found
"Mellor and Brice were all there in the second innings.
The former got three wickets in one over, and was duly
presented with a new hat by the Eleven."
/The Cheltonian/, Oct. 1866, page 224.  You can see the
date on page 187.
https://books.google.com/books?id=nPgHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA224

That's odd.
It only says he "got three wickets in one over" - without mentioning the
current definition of three wickets with three consecutive balls[1].

Perhaps the meaning has shifted over time?

[1] The Laws of Cricket have changed over time:
"There were four balls an over in 1744 and this did not change until
1889 when a five-ball over was introduced. In 1900, the over was
increased to six balls."[2]
So this match ought to have had four ball overs.

[2] Except in Australia, obviously. Outlaws, the lot of them.

(Quote stolen from the Wikipedia page on the laws of cricket.)

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Sam Plusnet
That's odd.
It only says he "got three wickets in one over" - without mentioning the
current definition of three wickets with three consecutive balls[1].
Perhaps the meaning has shifted over time?

I believe I have heard the "three wickets in one over" version.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Sam Plusnet
That's odd.
It only says he "got three wickets in one over" - without mentioning the
current definition of three wickets with three consecutive balls[1].
Perhaps the meaning has shifted over time?

I believe I have heard the "three wickets in one over" version.

I've seen/listened to matches when a bowler took two wickets with the
last two balls in an over.
The radio reporting then included much speculation on if he could
complete the Hat Trick with the first ball of his next over (usually not).

I don't know if the TMS commentators were playing fast and lose, or
sticking to the current, generally accepted definition of a Hat Trick.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Sam Plusnet
That's odd.
It only says he "got three wickets in one over" - without mentioning the
current definition of three wickets with three consecutive balls[1].
Perhaps the meaning has shifted over time?

I believe I have heard the "three wickets in one over" version.

I've always heard the "three consecutive balls" version -- a bowler
who gets 2 wickets at the end of an over is "on a hat-trick" in the
next over he bowls in the same innings.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
The article also claims that the origin is bow shooting in the Middle
Ages where hats were shot off three mannequins.
I am not sure that the article is reliable. There is no documentation
for the claims.

I'm even more skeptical about that origin story than about the
"presenting a hat" one. Were the cricket players and fans of the
mid-19th century that familiar with medieval bow-shooting? At the very
least I'd want an actual medieval text detailing this practice.
Similarly, I have heard many origin-stories of the "presenting player
with a hat" and also the "throwing hats into the playing area" kind.
But what I've found is that all the stories were of quite modern date;
early accounts describing hat-giving or throwing (for instance at the
1858 cricket match) proved remarkably elusive.

That prompted me to search, and I found
"Mellor and Brice were all there in the second innings.
The former got three wickets in one over, and was duly
presented with a new hat by the Eleven."
/The Cheltonian/, Oct. 1866, page 224.  You can see the
date on page 187.
https://books.google.com/books?id=nPgHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA224

That's odd.
It only says he "got three wickets in one over" - without mentioning the
current definition of three wickets with three consecutive balls[1].
Perhaps the meaning has shifted over time?

Or that was the school version, or the original story had
gotten distorted on the way to Cheltenham?

Post by Sam Plusnet
"There were four balls an over in 1744 and this did not change until
1889 when a five-ball over was introduced. In 1900, the over was
increased to six balls."[2]
So this match ought to have had four ball overs.

..

Which makes their version of the hat trick only 50%
less impressive than the original. When something
happens three times out of four, there's a 50% chance
that the three times are consecutive.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Madhu]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
The article also claims that the origin is bow shooting in the
Middle Ages where hats were shot off three mannequins.
I am not sure that the article is reliable. There is no
documentation for the claims.

I'm even more skeptical about that origin story than about the
"presenting a hat" one. Were the cricket players and fans of the
mid-19th century that familiar with medieval bow-shooting? At the
very least I'd want an actual medieval text detailing this practice.
Similarly, I have heard many origin-stories of the "presenting
player with a hat" and also the "throwing hats into the playing
area" kind. But what I've found is that all the stories were of
quite modern date; early accounts describing hat-giving or throwing
(for instance at the 1858 cricket match) proved remarkably elusive.

That prompted me to search, and I found
"Mellor and Brice were all there in the second innings.
The former got three wickets in one over, and was duly
presented with a new hat by the Eleven."
/The Cheltonian/, Oct. 1866, page 224.  You can see the
date on page 187.
https://books.google.com/books?id=nPgHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA224

That's odd.
It only says he "got three wickets in one over" - without mentioning
the current definition of three wickets with three consecutive
balls[1].
Perhaps the meaning has shifted over time?
"There were four balls an over in 1744 and this did not change until
1889 when a five-ball over was introduced. In 1900, the over was
increased to six balls."[2]
So this match ought to have had four ball overs.

So it is in Flashman's account of cricket in the 1840s in Flashman's
Lady, though I didn't notice it at that time.

"On the whole he treated my first over with respect, for he took
only eleven off it, which was better than I deserved. For of
course I flung my deliveries down with terrific energy, the
first one full pitch at his head, and the next three horribly
short, in sheer nervous excitement. The crowd loved it, and so
did Felix, curse him; he didn’t reach the first one, but he drew
the second beautifully for four, cut the third on tip-toe, and
swept the last right off his upper lip and into the coaches near
the pavilion"

The next over he bowls was the infamous hat-trick, the first was "the
best ball I ever delivered, which is to say it was unplayable", and then
dismisses (Nicholas)Felix (1804-1876), Fuller Pilch (1804-1870), (Alfie)
Mynn (1807-1861) in the the next three balls, (Mynn through the knavery
of a Leg Before Wicket decision)

"Mynn went walking by, shaking his head and cocking an eyebrow
in Aislabie?s direction?he knew it was a crab decision, but he
beamed all over his big red face like the sporting ass he was,
and then did something which has passed into the language: he
took off his boater, presented it to me with a bow, and says:
"That trick's worth a new hat any day, youngster? (I'm d----d
if I know which trick he meant,4 and I don't much care; I just
know the leg-before-wicket rule is a perfectly splendid one, if
they'll only let it alone.)"

Post by Sam Plusnet
[2] Except in Australia, obviously. Outlaws, the lot of them.
(Quote stolen from the Wikipedia page on the laws of cricket.)

There is an "Appendix A, Cricket in the 1840s" to "Flashman's Lady" whre
GMF includes a bibliography of cricket history books

"His technical references to the game are sound, although he has
a tendency to mix the jargon of his playing days with that of
sixty years later, when he was writing-thus he talks not of
batsmen, but of "batters", which is correct 1840s usage, as are
shiver, trimmer, twister, and shooter (all descriptive of
bowling); at the same time he refers indiscriminately to both
"hand" and "innings", which mean the same thing, although the
former is long obsolete, and he commits one curious lapse of
memory by referring to "the ropes" at Lord's in 1842; in fact,
boundaries were not introduced until later, and in Flashman's
time all scores had to be run for."

All quotes from Flashman's Lady, George MacDonald Fraser, 1977


PS: (title says it all)
Loading Image...

[Adam Funk]

On 2024-10-01, Sam Plusnet wrote:

...

Post by Sam Plusnet
That's odd.
It only says he "got three wickets in one over" - without mentioning the
current definition of three wickets with three consecutive balls[1].
Perhaps the meaning has shifted over time?
"There were four balls an over in 1744 and this did not change until
1889 when a five-ball over was introduced. In 1900, the over was
increased to six balls."[2]
So this match ought to have had four ball overs.
[2] Except in Australia, obviously. Outlaws, the lot of them.
(Quote stolen from the Wikipedia page on the laws of cricket.)

There's also a newish short form, "100-ball cricket", with 10 balls
per over.

[LionelEdwards]

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.

Taking three wickets in an innings, where four bowlers
are pursuing eleven batsmen, is an every day event. Not
so scoring three goals in a soccer match, so the British
rules are:

1) Cricket hat trick: 3 wickets by the same bowler
in 3 successive balls.

2) Soccer hat trick: 3 goals by the same player at any
time during the match.

Hat tricks are remembered for many years. My mother was
at Anfield when Michael Owen scored his first Liverpool
hat trick.

Not a night she would ever forget.

[Silvano]

Post by LionelEdwards

Post by Peter Moylan
In cricket, a hat trick is the dismissal of three batters in three
successive balls. That is such a rare and difficult achievement that it
really does deserve the award of a hat.

Taking three wickets in an innings, where four bowlers
are pursuing eleven batsmen, is an every day event.

Yes, but Peter did not mention innings. He talked about "the dismissal
of three batters in three successive balls". Even in the shortest
version of cricket, T20, an innings is 20 overs with 6 balls each, i.e.
120 balls, much more than three.

Post by LionelEdwards
Not
so scoring three goals in a soccer match, so the British
1) Cricket hat trick: 3 wickets by the same bowler
in 3 successive balls.
2) Soccer hat trick: 3 goals by the same player at any
time during the match.
Hat tricks are remembered for many years. My mother was
at Anfield when Michael Owen scored his first Liverpool
hat trick.
Not a night she would ever forget.

Too bad she missed Robert Lewandowski. Wikipedia: "In 2015, while
playing for Bayern, he scored five goals in less than nine minutes
against VfL Wolfsburg, the fastest by any player in Bundesliga history
as well as any major European football league for which he was awarded
four Guinness World Records."

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Silvano
Too bad she missed Robert Lewandowski. Wikipedia: "In 2015, while
playing for Bayern, he scored five goals in less than nine minutes
against VfL Wolfsburg, the fastest by any player in Bundesliga history
as well as any major European football league for which he was awarded
four Guinness World Records."

A video is here:

The goals are actually well played. They are not just lucky.