Pannekoeken

[Raymond S. Wise]

In another newsgroup, I've been involved in a discussion with a poster from
Belgium about the nature of "pannekoeken." I stated that pannekoeken are
oven-baked pancakes, and as a result are lighter than ordinary pancakes. He
insisted that pannekoeken are not oven-baked.

So I called the Pannekoeken Huis Family Restaurant in Maplewood, Minnesota.
I asked the lady who answered whether pannekoeken were baked in the oven and
she replied that they were. I then asked if they had anything they called
"pannekoeken" which was *not* baked in the oven, and she replied that they
had regular pancakes but they did not call them "pannekoeken." Finally, I
mentioned that I was replying in a newsgroup to someone from the
Netherlands--that was an error, it was someone from Belgium--who insisted
that pannekoeken were not baked in the oven, and I wanted to verify that
here pannekoeken are always baked in the oven. She said, "Yes, here
pannekoeken are always baked in the oven."

I posted about this in the other newsgroup, and speculated that this was
perhaps a case of a word being adopted from one language to another with a
more narrow sense. I gave the example of "tilde," which in English means the
accent mark used over the "n" in Spanish words such as "cañon," while in
Spanish "tilde" has the more general meaning of "accent mark." I asked the
poster to whom I was replying whether pannekoeken are ever baked in the oven
in Belgium or the Netherlands. He has not yet replied.

A Google search of English-language pages turns up other uses of
"pannekoeken" to mean an oven-baked pancake. My question is, first, if you
have eaten pannekoeken in your area--and if so, what country are you writing
from--were they baked in an oven and second, if you live in Belgium or the
Netherlands (hi, Donna!), are pannekoeken ever baked in the oven there?

[Donna Richoux]

Raymond S. Wise <***@mninter.net> wrote:

[snip]

Post by Raymond S. Wise
A Google search of English-language pages turns up other uses of
"pannekoeken" to mean an oven-baked pancake. My question is, first, if you
have eaten pannekoeken in your area--and if so, what country are you writing
from--were they baked in an oven and second, if you live in Belgium or the
Netherlands (hi, Donna!), are pannekoeken ever baked in the oven there?

Sorry, no, not that I ever heard of, nor my daughter either. They are
cooked in a skillet/frying pan on the top of the stove. One big one per
time, like a crepe. In fact a lot of houses in the Netherlands don't
even have ovens -- they're not big on baking. Nowadays, many people have
bought combination microwave/conventional ovens that sit on the
countertop.

Maybe a long time ago -- whenever those Dutch settlers brought the idea
to Minnesota -- the style of pancakes was different.

By the way, since the mid-1990s spelling reform, it's pannenkoek and
pannenkoeken. I found it amazing that spelling reformers would
deliberately insert silent letters into the middle of words, but it's a
grammatical thing. (Kinda like trade union, trades union.)

[Raymond S. Wise]

Post by Donna Richoux
[snip]

Post by Raymond S. Wise
A Google search of English-language pages turns up other uses of
"pannekoeken" to mean an oven-baked pancake. My question is, first, if you
have eaten pannekoeken in your area--and if so, what country are you writing
from--were they baked in an oven and second, if you live in Belgium or the
Netherlands (hi, Donna!), are pannekoeken ever baked in the oven there?

Sorry, no, not that I ever heard of, nor my daughter either. They are
cooked in a skillet/frying pan on the top of the stove. One big one per
time, like a crepe. In fact a lot of houses in the Netherlands don't
even have ovens -- they're not big on baking. Nowadays, many people have
bought combination microwave/conventional ovens that sit on the
countertop.
Maybe a long time ago -- whenever those Dutch settlers brought the idea
to Minnesota -- the style of pancakes was different.
By the way, since the mid-1990s spelling reform, it's pannenkoek and
pannenkoeken. I found it amazing that spelling reformers would
deliberately insert silent letters into the middle of words, but it's a
grammatical thing. (Kinda like trade union, trades union.)

Thanks for the information, Donna.

I just found the following. You might call it an official Minnesota recipe
:-) because it comes from Pillsbury, which is based in Minnesota.[1]

From the newsgroup rec.food.cooking , archived by Google at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=barbschaller-788F62.07443713082002%40News.CIS.DFN.DE&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain

or

http://tinyurl.com/x3f4


[begin quote of Usenet post]

OB Food:

{ Exported from MasterCook Mac }

Pannekoeken

Recipe By: Pillsbury
Serving Size: 2
Preparation Time: 0:00
Categories: Entrees

Amount Measure Ingredient Preparation Method
Pancake:
1/2 cup Pillsbury all purpose or unbleached flour
2 Tbsp. sugar
1/4 tsp. salt
1/2 cup milk
2 eggs (*or 1 whole egg + 1 egg white)
2 Tbsp. margarine or butter
Fruit Topping:
1/2 cup sugar
1 Tbsp. cornstarch
1/2 cup orange juice
2 Tbsp. orange-flavored liqueur or orange juice
3 cups sliced fruits and/or berries (strawberries pineapple, kiwi,
melons, banana, peaches - whatever)

Heat oven to 425?. Lightly spoon flour into measuring cup; level off.
In medium bowl, combine all pancake ingredients except margarine. Beat
with wire whisk or rotary beater until smooth. Place margarine in
9-inch (glass) pie pan; melt in 425? oven just until margarine sizzles,
2 to 4 minutes. Remove pan from oven; tilt to coat bottom with melted
margarine. Immediately pour batter into hot pan. Bake at 425? for
14-18 minutes or until puffed and golden brown. (Some margarine may
rise to the surface of pancake during baking.)

Meanwhile, in small saucepan combine 1/2 cup sugar and cornstarch; mix
well. Stir in orange juice and liqueur. Cook and stir over medium heat
5-7 minutes or until sugar dissolves and mixture thickens. Remove
pancake from oven; immediately arrange peaches and strawberries over
pancake and drizzle with orange sauce. Cut into wedges. Serve
immediately. 2-3 servings.

One-third of recipe (using 2 whole eggs) is 460 calories, 145 mg
cholesterol, 12 g fat.

Source: Pillsbury cookbook #159, Springtime Brunches and Parties, May
1994, page 21. *Made 5/8/94 using 1 egg white as substitute for 1 whole
egg and couldn't detect any difference.

----------
Notes: Pillsbury 5/94 booklet.


Per serving (excluding unknown items): 322 Calories; 2g Fat (6% calories
from fat); 2g Protein; 75g Carbohydrate; 8mg Cholesterol; 298mg Sodium
Food Exchanges: 4 1/2 Fruit; 1/2 Fat; 4 Other Carbohydrates

[end quote from Usenet post]


Note:

[1] It used to be based in Minneapolis, but Pillsbury employees moved out of
Pillsbury Center in Minneapolis in October and went to the main company
campus--the main company being General Mills--in Golden Valley, Minnesota.
The Minneapolis building has subsequently been renamed.

[Laura F Spira]

Post by Raymond S. Wise
I just found the following. You might call it an official Minnesota recipe
:-) because it comes from Pillsbury, which is based in Minnesota.[1]
From the newsgroup rec.food.cooking , archived by Google at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=barbschaller-788F62.07443713082002%40News.CIS.DFN.DE&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
or
http://tinyurl.com/x3f4
[begin quote of Usenet post]
{ Exported from MasterCook Mac }
Pannekoeken
Recipe By: Pillsbury
Serving Size: 2
Preparation Time: 0:00
Categories: Entrees
Amount Measure Ingredient Preparation Method
1/2 cup Pillsbury all purpose or unbleached flour
2 Tbsp. sugar
1/4 tsp. salt
1/2 cup milk
2 eggs (*or 1 whole egg + 1 egg white)
2 Tbsp. margarine or butter
1/2 cup sugar
1 Tbsp. cornstarch
1/2 cup orange juice
2 Tbsp. orange-flavored liqueur or orange juice
3 cups sliced fruits and/or berries (strawberries pineapple, kiwi,
melons, banana, peaches - whatever)
Heat oven to 425?. Lightly spoon flour into measuring cup; level off.
In medium bowl, combine all pancake ingredients except margarine. Beat
with wire whisk or rotary beater until smooth. Place margarine in
9-inch (glass) pie pan; melt in 425? oven just until margarine sizzles,
2 to 4 minutes. Remove pan from oven; tilt to coat bottom with melted
margarine. Immediately pour batter into hot pan. Bake at 425? for
14-18 minutes or until puffed and golden brown. (Some margarine may
rise to the surface of pancake during baking.)
Meanwhile, in small saucepan combine 1/2 cup sugar and cornstarch; mix
well. Stir in orange juice and liqueur. Cook and stir over medium heat
5-7 minutes or until sugar dissolves and mixture thickens. Remove
pancake from oven; immediately arrange peaches and strawberries over
pancake and drizzle with orange sauce. Cut into wedges. Serve
immediately. 2-3 servings.

[..]


This looks to me like a sweet version of a Yorkshire pudding.

[Alan O'Brien]

Post by Raymond S. Wise
Heat oven to 425?. Lightly spoon flour into measuring cup; level off.
In medium bowl, combine all pancake ingredients except margarine. Beat
with wire whisk or rotary beater until smooth. Place margarine in
9-inch (glass) pie pan; melt in 425? oven just until margarine sizzles,
2 to 4 minutes. Remove pan from oven; tilt to coat bottom with melted
margarine. Immediately pour batter into hot pan. Bake at 425? for
14-18 minutes or until puffed and golden brown.

I cooked them at 425 but they were burned to a crisp.
What went wrong?
Alan

[Mike Oliver]

Post by Alan O'Brien
I cooked them at 425 but they were burned to a crisp.
What went wrong?
Alan

Your oven is calibrated in Reamur.

[Reinhold (Rey) Aman]

[Deleted AEU]

Post by Mike Oliver

Post by Alan O'Brien
I cooked them at 425 but they were burned to a crisp.
What went wrong?

Your oven is calibrated in Reamur.

Or, as we smart Mac users spell it, Réaumur.

[Mike Oliver]

Post by Reinhold (Rey) Aman
[Deleted AEU]

Post by Mike Oliver
Your oven is calibrated in Reamur.

Or, as we smart Mac users spell it, Réaumur.

I didn't say Mac users weren't *smart*. I
just said they were wimpy. Anyway, thanks
for the spelling correction -- not a word
I use frequently.

[mUs1Ka]

Post by Alan O'Brien

Post by Raymond S. Wise
Heat oven to 425?. Lightly spoon flour into measuring cup; level off.
In medium bowl, combine all pancake ingredients except margarine.

Beat

Post by Alan O'Brien

Post by Raymond S. Wise
with wire whisk or rotary beater until smooth. Place margarine in
9-inch (glass) pie pan; melt in 425? oven just until margarine sizzles,
2 to 4 minutes. Remove pan from oven; tilt to coat bottom with melted
margarine. Immediately pour batter into hot pan. Bake at 425? for
14-18 minutes or until puffed and golden brown.

I cooked them at 425 but they were burned to a crisp.
What went wrong?

You should have waited until 4.30.
m.

[Laura F Spira]

Post by Alan O'Brien

Post by Raymond S. Wise
Heat oven to 425?. Lightly spoon flour into measuring cup; level off.
In medium bowl, combine all pancake ingredients except margarine. Beat
with wire whisk or rotary beater until smooth. Place margarine in
9-inch (glass) pie pan; melt in 425? oven just until margarine sizzles,
2 to 4 minutes. Remove pan from oven; tilt to coat bottom with melted
margarine. Immediately pour batter into hot pan. Bake at 425? for
14-18 minutes or until puffed and golden brown.

I cooked them at 425 but they were burned to a crisp.
What went wrong?
Alan

Don't ask me - it was Ray who posted the recipe.

[Alan Jones]

Post by Alan O'Brien

Post by Raymond S. Wise
Heat oven to 425?. Lightly spoon flour into measuring cup; level off.
In medium bowl, combine all pancake ingredients except margarine.

Beat

Post by Alan O'Brien

Post by Raymond S. Wise
with wire whisk or rotary beater until smooth. Place margarine in
9-inch (glass) pie pan; melt in 425? oven just until margarine sizzles,
2 to 4 minutes. Remove pan from oven; tilt to coat bottom with melted
margarine. Immediately pour batter into hot pan. Bake at 425? for
14-18 minutes or until puffed and golden brown.

I cooked them at 425 but they were burned to a crisp.
What went wrong?

Can some experienced cook tell us the correct temperature, making clear
whether it's in degrees F or C?

Alan Jones

[david56]

Post by Alan Jones

Post by Alan O'Brien

Post by Raymond S. Wise
Heat oven to 425?. Lightly spoon flour into measuring cup; level off.
In medium bowl, combine all pancake ingredients except margarine.
Beat
with wire whisk or rotary beater until smooth. Place margarine in
9-inch (glass) pie pan; melt in 425? oven just until margarine sizzles,
2 to 4 minutes. Remove pan from oven; tilt to coat bottom with melted
margarine. Immediately pour batter into hot pan. Bake at 425? for
14-18 minutes or until puffed and golden brown.

I cooked them at 425 but they were burned to a crisp.
What went wrong?

Can some experienced cook tell us the correct temperature, making clear
whether it's in degrees F or C?

435 C is not a suitable temperature for a domestic oven, being about
800 F. 425 F is about 220 C - Gas Mar 7, which sounds OK to me.

[Alan Jones]

[...]
[quoting someone else, I think? I've lost track of this thread]

Post by david56

Post by Alan O'Brien

Post by Raymond S. Wise
Bake at 425? for

Post by Raymond S. Wise
14-18 minutes or until puffed and golden brown.

I cooked them at 425 but they were burned to a crisp.
What went wrong?

[..]

Post by david56
435 C is not a suitable temperature for a domestic oven, being about
800 F. 425 F is about 220 C - Gas Mar 7, which sounds OK to me.

That seems OK to me, too, considering the ingredients.

Some of the confusion in this thread seems to arise from two very different
notions of what a "pancake" is.

To me, in the UK, it's a thin circular thing made of batter (the consistency
to be like thin cream) cooked fast on the top of the stove in a flat pan
greased with a mere smidgin of fat - lard or butter, perhaps. The pan has to
be made fizzing hot before one swirls the batter into it, and the batter
needs thinning between pancakes.The first one or two samples are usually too
thick to be acceptable to anyone but the cook and any bystanding children,
and the final one is almost always burnt!

The model for a British pancake is probably the Breton crêpe, though
homemade ones are often slightly thicker than that. We make crêpes
dentelles, which are so thin that they have a lacy fringe; this effect
depends on a very sloppy mix - really a free-flowing liquid - including some
'dry' spirit such as brandy. The finished pancake is often sprinkled with
sugar and lemon juice and rolled up for convenience in eating, but is also
good with a little jam/jelly or with a filling of apple purée.

The US pancake seems to be a more solid, cakey kind of thing, which could
be - usually is? - baked in the oven. Is this kind derived from Dutch
rather than French cookery tradition?

Alan Jones

[Joe Reynolds]

Post by Alan Jones
[...]
[quoting someone else, I think? I've lost track of this thread]

Post by david56

Post by Alan O'Brien

Post by Raymond S. Wise
Bake at 425? for

Post by Raymond S. Wise
14-18 minutes or until puffed and golden brown.

I cooked them at 425 but they were burned to a crisp.
What went wrong?

[..]

Post by david56
435 C is not a suitable temperature for a domestic oven, being about
800 F. 425 F is about 220 C - Gas Mar 7, which sounds OK to me.

That seems OK to me, too, considering the ingredients.
Some of the confusion in this thread seems to arise from two very different
notions of what a "pancake" is.
To me, in the UK, it's a thin circular thing made of batter (the consistency
to be like thin cream) cooked fast on the top of the stove in a flat pan
greased with a mere smidgin of fat - lard or butter, perhaps. The pan has to
be made fizzing hot before one swirls the batter into it, and the batter
needs thinning between pancakes.The first one or two samples are usually too
thick to be acceptable to anyone but the cook and any bystanding children,
and the final one is almost always burnt!
The model for a British pancake is probably the Breton crêpe, though
homemade ones are often slightly thicker than that. We make crêpes
dentelles, which are so thin that they have a lacy fringe; this effect
depends on a very sloppy mix - really a free-flowing liquid - including some
'dry' spirit such as brandy. The finished pancake is often sprinkled with
sugar and lemon juice and rolled up for convenience in eating, but is also
good with a little jam/jelly or with a filling of apple purée.
The US pancake seems to be a more solid, cakey kind of thing, which could
be - usually is? - baked in the oven. Is this kind derived from Dutch
rather than French cookery tradition?
Alan Jones

I've never actually seen an American pancake baked in the oven. Generally we
cook them on the stove top. You are correct, however, in that it is much
thicker than a European pancake. I believe that the main difference is that
the typical American pancake has more flour, sugar, and possibly other
ingredients (depending on the chef and the tastes of the intended audience)
added to the batter. Some favorites include: sausage, blueberry, blackberry,
raspberry, or chocolate chip pancakes.

-Joe

[Raymond S. Wise]

"Joe Reynolds" <***@yahoo.com>, replying to Alan Jones, wrote in
message news:***@news.teranews.com...


[...]

Post by Joe Reynolds
I've never actually seen an American pancake baked in the oven. Generally we
cook them on the stove top. You are correct, however, in that it is much

I've seen French toast baked in the oven, but never pancakes.

Post by Joe Reynolds
thicker than a European pancake. I believe that the main difference is that
the typical American pancake has more flour, sugar, and possibly other
ingredients (depending on the chef and the tastes of the intended audience)
added to the batter. Some favorites include: sausage, blueberry, blackberry,
raspberry, or chocolate chip pancakes.
-Joe

Sliced hot dogs (which some would count as a type of sausage and others
would not) are another possible ingredient. Although that is what the
British would call a "savory" ingredient, pancakes made with sliced hot dogs
would typically be eaten with syrup (and, of course, butter or margarine).

[Pat Durkin]

Post by Alan Jones

Post by Raymond S. Wise
Bake at 425? for

Post by Raymond S. Wise
14-18 minutes or until puffed and golden brown.

Arrows don't match Laura's attribution, but neither did the attributions
that I snipped.

Post by Alan Jones
Some of the confusion in this thread seems to arise from two very different
notions of what a "pancake" is.
To me, in the UK, it's a thin circular thing made of batter (the consistency
to be like thin cream) cooked fast on the top of the stove in a flat pan
greased with a mere smidgin of fat - lard or butter, perhaps. The pan has to
be made fizzing hot before one swirls the batter into it, and the batter
needs thinning between pancakes.The first one or two samples are usually too
thick to be acceptable to anyone but the cook and any bystanding children,
and the final one is almost always burnt!
The model for a British pancake is probably the Breton crêpe, though
homemade ones are often slightly thicker than that. We make crêpes
dentelles, which are so thin that they have a lacy fringe; this effect
depends on a very sloppy mix - really a free-flowing liquid - including some
'dry' spirit such as brandy. The finished pancake is often sprinkled with
sugar and lemon juice and rolled up for convenience in eating, but is also
good with a little jam/jelly or with a filling of apple purée.
The US pancake seems to be a more solid, cakey kind of thing, which could
be - usually is? - baked in the oven. Is this kind derived from Dutch
rather than French cookery tradition?

You will find a dozen descriptions of US pancakes. In my experience, the
"Pannekoeken" of the restaurant (maybe was a chain) in the Minneapolis area,
were more than one inch thick, and very light, so the apple or other fruit
cooked in it was half buried in the thick, airy dough. I suppose they are
baked in an oven, as claimed, but probably at a pretty high heat to ensure
the raising of the dough. They weren't particularly "heavy", except for the
incorporated fruit.

That is NOT an American pancake, but a variation on a Dutch or Belgian dish,
as can be told by the very non-US name.

The American pancake may have some small precooked fruit cooked its batter,
but for the most part, cakey though it is, it seldom "rises" as high as 1/2
inch. I can't say, though, about pancakes in California or New York. I
did work in breakfast-style restaurants in Colorado and the Midwest. And I
think Denny's and other such restaurants would have a nation-wide standard
pancake such as the one I describe here. At least, on my many road trips, I
have never seen a "pancake" (part of a standard US restaurant breakfast)
that was oven-baked. I think that such a variation would have a special
name and would be featured on a menu with a picture, a special price, and a
description.

US pancakes are cooked on stovetop, either in skillets or on griddles. In
"grill" restaurants, where they are mass-produced, the pancakes are cooked
on the same grill as bacon, eggs, burgers, bacon, steaks, hash-browns etc.
They are _not_ oven baked.

Think of the width difference between the US waffle and what we call the
Belgian waffle--or even, what we call French toast and Texas Toast.

[R F]

Post by Pat Durkin
The American pancake may have some small precooked fruit cooked its batter,
but for the most part, cakey though it is, it seldom "rises" as high as 1/2
inch. I can't say, though, about pancakes in California or New York.

Speaking of New York, let's not forget that it was New York, fka Niew
Amsterdam (Largest Dorp in New Netherland), that introduced the pancake
(modified, perhaps, from its pre-colonization Dutch antecedents) to the
US, BrE pancakes (if they even existed in the 16th century or earlier)
notwithstanding. If I'm wrong about this, Donna will provide a
correction. If she doesn't, I must be presumed to be correct. New York
also introduced the cookie to Colonial America, BTW. It also introduced
the English muffin and the bagel to Post-Colonial America. But I digress.

A proper New York pancake is probably thinner and larger in diameter than
the ersatz pancakes one might find in other corners of the Republic, such
as Orlando. I will say, however, that there are good pancakes to be had
in Northeastern lumberjack-equivalent country, such as the coney regions
of Upstate New Yerk and the maple syrup producing centers of northern New
England.

A traditional pancake will not have "fruit" in its predecessor batter.

Post by Pat Durkin
I
did work in breakfast-style restaurants in Colorado and the Midwest. And I
think Denny's and other such restaurants would have a nation-wide standard
pancake such as the one I describe here. At least, on my many road trips, I
have never seen a "pancake" (part of a standard US restaurant breakfast)
that was oven-baked. I think that such a variation would have a special
name and would be featured on a menu with a picture, a special price, and a
description.
US pancakes are cooked on stovetop, either in skillets or on griddles. In
"grill" restaurants, where they are mass-produced, the pancakes are cooked
on the same grill as bacon, eggs, burgers, bacon, steaks, hash-browns etc.
They are _not_ oven baked.

BTW, the term for "pancake" is one of those things that varies regionally,
like hero/sub/grinder/hoagie. The New York City term is "pancake", but
elsewhere you can find "hotcakes", "flapjacks", "griddle
cakes". For some reason McDonald's fixed upon "hotcake" for their ersatz
pancake things; is "hotcake" the Illinois term?

[Donna Richoux]

Post by R F
If I'm wrong about this, Donna will provide a
correction. If she doesn't, I must be presumed to be correct.

You're probably wrong about the pancake -- after all, it's been an
English word since the 14th century -- but I'm mostly writing to say you
are wrong about the above assumption.

If I fail to correct you on something, it can be because:

(1) I don't recognize the error
(2) I didn't read the error
(3) I don't give a darn about the error, or
(4) I have decided to save my breath.

As always, it is hard to interpret silence correctly.

[R F]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by R F
If I'm wrong about this, Donna will provide a
correction. If she doesn't, I must be presumed to be correct.

You're probably wrong about the pancake -- after all, it's been an
English word since the 14th century -- but I'm mostly writing to say you
are wrong about the above assumption.
(1) I don't recognize the error
(2) I didn't read the error
(3) I don't give a darn about the error, or
(4) I have decided to save my breath.
As always, it is hard to interpret silence correctly.

I didn't make an assumption, tho'. I am declaring a presumption, so to
say. It may be an unreasonable one.

[Raymond S. Wise]

"R F" <***@alumni.wesleyan.edu> wrote in message news:***@alumni.wesleyan.edu...



[...]

Post by R F
BTW, the term for "pancake" is one of those things that varies regionally,
like hero/sub/grinder/hoagie. The New York City term is "pancake", but
elsewhere you can find "hotcakes", "flapjacks", "griddle
cakes". For some reason McDonald's fixed upon "hotcake" for their ersatz
pancake things; is "hotcake" the Illinois term?

Not the Central Illinois term, anyway. The term I grew up with was
"pancake."

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Post by Raymond S. Wise

Post by R F
BTW, the term for "pancake" is one of those things that varies
regionally, like hero/sub/grinder/hoagie. The New York City term
is "pancake", but elsewhere you can find "hotcakes", "flapjacks",
"griddle cakes". For some reason McDonald's fixed upon "hotcake"
for their ersatz pancake things; is "hotcake" the Illinois term?

Not the Central Illinois term, anyway. The term I grew up with was
"pancake."

And they're "pancakes" in Chicago, too. I suspect that they just
wanted an allusion to "selling like hotcakes".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If I am ever forced to make a
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |choice between learning and using
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |win32, or leaving the computer
|industry, let me just say it was
***@hpl.hp.com |nice knowing all of you. :-)
[phone] | Randal Schwartz

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Daniel James]

Post by Pat Durkin
In my experience, the
"Pannekoeken" of the restaurant (maybe was a chain) in the Minneapolis
area, were more than one inch thick, and very light, so the apple or
other fruit cooked in it was half buried in the thick, airy dough.
I suppose they are baked in an oven, as claimed, but probably at a
pretty high heat to ensure the raising of the dough.

Now *that* sounds like toad-in-the-hole, but with fruit instead of toads.

(The "toads" of toad-in-the-hole are usually sausages, but can be any sort
of (boneless!) meat, It's very good with strips of tender steak.)

Cheers,
Daniel.

[Joe Reynolds]

Post by Daniel James

Post by Pat Durkin
In my experience, the
"Pannekoeken" of the restaurant (maybe was a chain) in the Minneapolis
area, were more than one inch thick, and very light, so the apple or
other fruit cooked in it was half buried in the thick, airy dough.
I suppose they are baked in an oven, as claimed, but probably at a
pretty high heat to ensure the raising of the dough.

Now *that* sounds like toad-in-the-hole, but with fruit instead of toads.
(The "toads" of toad-in-the-hole are usually sausages, but can be any sort
of (boneless!) meat, It's very good with strips of tender steak.)
Cheers,
Daniel.

I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it is a
slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in the center of
the bread.

Sorry, that was somewhat random. The toad-in-the-hole comment made me think
of it.

-Joe

[Don Aitken]

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:56:07 GMT, "Joe Reynolds"

Post by Joe Reynolds

Post by Daniel James

Post by Pat Durkin
In my experience, the
"Pannekoeken" of the restaurant (maybe was a chain) in the Minneapolis
area, were more than one inch thick, and very light, so the apple or
other fruit cooked in it was half buried in the thick, airy dough.
I suppose they are baked in an oven, as claimed, but probably at a
pretty high heat to ensure the raising of the dough.

Now *that* sounds like toad-in-the-hole, but with fruit instead of toads.
(The "toads" of toad-in-the-hole are usually sausages, but can be any sort
of (boneless!) meat, It's very good with strips of tender steak.)

I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it is a
slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in the center of
the bread.
Sorry, that was somewhat random. The toad-in-the-hole comment made me think
of it.

The person who introduced me to this delicacy (UK, late 70s) called it
a "gas house egg". Why, I've no idea.

[Peter Duncanson]

Post by Don Aitken
On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:56:07 GMT, "Joe Reynolds"

Post by Joe Reynolds

Post by Daniel James

Post by Pat Durkin
In my experience, the
"Pannekoeken" of the restaurant (maybe was a chain) in the Minneapolis
area, were more than one inch thick, and very light, so the apple or
other fruit cooked in it was half buried in the thick, airy dough.
I suppose they are baked in an oven, as claimed, but probably at a
pretty high heat to ensure the raising of the dough.

Now *that* sounds like toad-in-the-hole, but with fruit instead of toads.
(The "toads" of toad-in-the-hole are usually sausages, but can be any sort
of (boneless!) meat, It's very good with strips of tender steak.)

I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it is a
slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in the center of
the bread.
Sorry, that was somewhat random. The toad-in-the-hole comment made me think
of it.

The person who introduced me to this delicacy (UK, late 70s) called it
a "gas house egg". Why, I've no idea.

Googling found
http://www.of2minds.org/spice/archives/000306.html
<quote>
Gashouse Eggs
Lunch yesterday...I ran across this in the March 2003 issue of Saveur
Magazine. Since poached eggs over toast were one of the great comfort foods
of my childhood, I had to try these out. Simple, but very tasty, and great
for an under-the-weather afternoon.
<recipe snipped>
Of course, I gather they're not supposed to be called gashouse
eggs...According to the article, it's a mispronounciation of Gasthaus eggs,
perhaps popular to serve at German bed-and-breakfasts or inns. They've
apparently also been dubbed: eggs in a bonnet, bird's nest eggs, knothole
eggs, one-eyed jacks, and many other unusual names.
</quote>

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Post by Joe Reynolds
I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it
is a slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in
the center of the bread.

My grandmother used to serve this in Chicago around 1970 (and, I
suspect, a fair bit before). If I recall correctly, you broke the
yolk before it was done cooking and let it finish cooking on the
bread. There was a name for it, but it escapes me. it wasn't "egg in
a hole" or Don Aitken's "gas house egg".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A handgun is like a Lawyer. You
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |don't want it lying around where
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the children might be exposed to
|it, but when you need one, you need
***@hpl.hp.com |it RIGHT NOW, and nothing else will
[phone] |do.
| Bill McNutt
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Spehro Pefhany]

On 02 Dec 2003 16:59:16 -0800, the renowned Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Joe Reynolds
I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it
is a slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in
the center of the bread.

My grandmother used to serve this in Chicago around 1970 (and, I
suspect, a fair bit before). If I recall correctly, you broke the
yolk before it was done cooking and let it finish cooking on the
bread. There was a name for it, but it escapes me. it wasn't "egg in
a hole" or Don Aitken's "gas house egg".

I'm a bit surprised to find "Toad in a Hole" recipes that are as you
describe (Here in Canada, I think it normally would involve sausage-
the toad should be meat, right?). Google finds a single recipe for
"Golfer's Egg", but it uses two slices of bread.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

[rzed]

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Joe Reynolds
I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it
is a slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in
the center of the bread.

My grandmother used to serve this in Chicago around 1970 (and, I
suspect, a fair bit before). If I recall correctly, you broke the
yolk before it was done cooking and let it finish cooking on the
bread. There was a name for it, but it escapes me. it wasn't "egg in
a hole" or Don Aitken's "gas house egg".

It was egg in a frame in our household. It's been a long time since I had
one. Must be ... oh, four days.

--
rzed

[Pat Durkin]

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Joe Reynolds
I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it
is a slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in
the center of the bread.

My grandmother used to serve this in Chicago around 1970 (and, I
suspect, a fair bit before). If I recall correctly, you broke the
yolk before it was done cooking and let it finish cooking on the
bread. There was a name for it, but it escapes me. it wasn't "egg in
a hole" or Don Aitken's "gas house egg".

I have had eggs baked inside bread pressed into muffin cups. The bread
toasted and the eggs baked until the yolks were solid, (usually). These
were called "coddled eggs" and it didn't matter if the yolks broke while
being cracked into the bread cups. The bread/egg combo could be easily
lifted out and onto plates, and served hot to quite a number of eaters,
which was hard to achieve with some other egg preparations.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Joe Reynolds
I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it
is a slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in
the center of the bread.

My grandmother used to serve this in Chicago around 1970 (and, I
suspect, a fair bit before). If I recall correctly, you broke the
yolk before it was done cooking and let it finish cooking on the
bread. There was a name for it, but it escapes me. it wasn't "egg in
a hole" or Don Aitken's "gas house egg".

I have had eggs baked inside bread pressed into muffin cups. The bread
toasted and the eggs baked until the yolks were solid, (usually). These
were called "coddled eggs" and it didn't matter if the yolks broke while
being cracked into the bread cups. The bread/egg combo could be easily
lifted out and onto plates, and served hot to quite a number of eaters,
which was hard to achieve with some other egg preparations.

That would be a Scotch Egg, wouldn't it? A coddled egg is either
cooked in the shell in boiling water or cooked in an egg coddler. We
have egg coddlers and egg cups, but rarely get them out. We used to
have a silver scissor-like thing that sliced off the top of a coddled
egg when it was cooked in the shell and served in an egg cup. The
thingy disappeared, though.

My mother made coddled eggs frequently and served them in egg cups.
We'd scrape out the egg and squash it up with crumbled graham
crackers.

[Laura F Spira]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Joe Reynolds
I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it
is a slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in
the center of the bread.

My grandmother used to serve this in Chicago around 1970 (and, I
suspect, a fair bit before). If I recall correctly, you broke the
yolk before it was done cooking and let it finish cooking on the
bread. There was a name for it, but it escapes me. it wasn't "egg in
a hole" or Don Aitken's "gas house egg".

I have had eggs baked inside bread pressed into muffin cups. The bread
toasted and the eggs baked until the yolks were solid, (usually). These
were called "coddled eggs" and it didn't matter if the yolks broke while
being cracked into the bread cups. The bread/egg combo could be easily
lifted out and onto plates, and served hot to quite a number of eaters,
which was hard to achieve with some other egg preparations.

That would be a Scotch Egg, wouldn't it?

No, no!

A Scotch Egg is hardboiled, surrounded by sausage meat and then, I
think, deep fried and served cold.

See a picture at www.citypaper.com/2002-03-06/ cheap-1.jpg

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 07:58:38 +0000, Laura F Spira

Post by Laura F Spira

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Joe Reynolds
I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it
is a slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in
the center of the bread.

My grandmother used to serve this in Chicago around 1970 (and, I
suspect, a fair bit before). If I recall correctly, you broke the
yolk before it was done cooking and let it finish cooking on the
bread. There was a name for it, but it escapes me. it wasn't "egg in
a hole" or Don Aitken's "gas house egg".

I have had eggs baked inside bread pressed into muffin cups. The bread
toasted and the eggs baked until the yolks were solid, (usually). These
were called "coddled eggs" and it didn't matter if the yolks broke while
being cracked into the bread cups. The bread/egg combo could be easily
lifted out and onto plates, and served hot to quite a number of eaters,
which was hard to achieve with some other egg preparations.

That would be a Scotch Egg, wouldn't it?

No, no!
A Scotch Egg is hardboiled, surrounded by sausage meat and then, I
think, deep fried and served cold.

I forgot that the Scotch Egg is a hard-boiled egg, but it is
surrounded by a bread-like mixture of flour, egg, and breadcrumbs in
addition to the sausage.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Joe Reynolds
I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it
is a slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in
the center of the bread.

My grandmother used to serve this in Chicago around 1970 (and, I
suspect, a fair bit before). If I recall correctly, you broke the
yolk before it was done cooking and let it finish cooking on the
bread. There was a name for it, but it escapes me. it wasn't "egg in
a hole" or Don Aitken's "gas house egg".

I've eaten it lots of times - we often do it that way when cooking
breakfast on a barbecue. However, I've never heard a name for it.

[R H Draney]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Joe Reynolds
I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it
is a slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in
the center of the bread.

My grandmother used to serve this in Chicago around 1970 (and, I
suspect, a fair bit before). If I recall correctly, you broke the
yolk before it was done cooking and let it finish cooking on the
bread. There was a name for it, but it escapes me. it wasn't "egg in
a hole" or Don Aitken's "gas house egg".

I've eaten it lots of times - we often do it that way when cooking
breakfast on a barbecue. However, I've never heard a name for it.

"Picture-frame eggs", when I learned the presentation about the same time Evan
did...we also scrambled another egg and dipped the hollowed-out slice of bread
in it before putting it in the pan, so what we got was an egg in the middle of a
piece of French toast....r

[Steve]

We used to call it an "Indian Eye" - but I really have no idea why!

Steve

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Joe Reynolds
I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it
is a slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in
the center of the bread.

My grandmother used to serve this in Chicago around 1970 (and, I
suspect, a fair bit before). If I recall correctly, you broke the
yolk before it was done cooking and let it finish cooking on the
bread. There was a name for it, but it escapes me. it wasn't "egg in
a hole" or Don Aitken's "gas house egg".

I've eaten it lots of times - we often do it that way when cooking
breakfast on a barbecue. However, I've never heard a name for it.
--
Rob Bannister

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:56:07 GMT, "Joe Reynolds"

Post by Joe Reynolds
I heard recently about a dish called "Egg in a Hole." Apparently it is a
slice of bread with the center removed. You then fry an egg in the center of
the bread.
Sorry, that was somewhat random. The toad-in-the-hole comment made me think
of it.

A specialty of mine. I seldom try cooking anything more complicated
than toast, Campbell's soup, or Dinty Moore Beef Stew. Sometimes,
though, when I just have to have an egg, I'll butter a slice of bread,
cut a hole in the center of the slice by inverting a water glass and
pressing down, and fry an egg in the resulting hole. The hole itself
is also fried and eaten separately.

The advantage of this style of egg-cooking is that the white of the
egg doesn't get all frazzy and crispy and that the entire thing can be
turned with a spatula with less probability of breaking the yoke.

Next week: How to set the toaster "just right".

[Robert Lieblich]

Tony Cooper wrote:

[ ... ]

Post by Tony Cooper
The advantage of this style of egg-cooking is that the white of the
egg doesn't get all frazzy and crispy and that the entire thing can be
turned with a spatula with less probability of breaking the yoke.

Wouldn't want the oxen to escape, innit?

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 22:47:49 -0500, Robert Lieblich

Post by Robert Lieblich
[ ... ]

Post by Tony Cooper
The advantage of this style of egg-cooking is that the white of the
egg doesn't get all frazzy and crispy and that the entire thing can be
turned with a spatula with less probability of breaking the yoke.

Wouldn't want the oxen to escape, innit?

You know, I looked at that spelling and *knew* it wasn't correct, but
couldn't - for the life of me - think of "yolk" at the time. I don't
mind making an inadvertent error, but when I know it's an error and
can't think of the correct word it alarms me. The little gray cells
must be oozing out at night.

[Donna Richoux]

Post by Alan Jones
The model for a British pancake is probably the Breton crêpe, though
homemade ones are often slightly thicker than that. We make crêpes
dentelles, which are so thin that they have a lacy fringe; this effect
depends on a very sloppy mix - really a free-flowing liquid - including some
'dry' spirit such as brandy. The finished pancake is often sprinkled with
sugar and lemon juice and rolled up for convenience in eating, but is also
good with a little jam/jelly or with a filling of apple purée.
The US pancake seems to be a more solid, cakey kind of thing, which could
be - usually is? - baked in the oven. Is this kind derived from Dutch
rather than French cookery tradition?

No, I think you must have been misled by the previous discussion. What
we're told is baked in the oven is something that is called a "Dutch
pancake" (or pannekoek) when it's made in the United States. It is not
the usual American pancake. (Nor the usual pancake in the Netherlands,
at least not now.)

Usually American pancakes are made by pouring spoonfuls of batter onto a
hot griddle. I'm sure I can find a picture. Yes, here's a series showing
the making of pancakes (the studding with berries is optional):

http://familyfun.go.com/recipes/family/feature/famf97pancake/famf97panca
ke2.html

Judging solidity would have to depend on some actual trials. I've had US
pancakes that were thin, and others that were thick. I think they taste
better slightly thin, myself. Nederlands pannenkoeken also vary in
density. I have no experience with the Dutch-American hybrids Ray told
us about.

[R F]

Post by Alan Jones
The US pancake seems to be a more solid, cakey kind of thing, which could
be - usually is? - baked in the oven.

Never. The idea of baking a pancake is preposterous. The whole reason
it's a pancake is that it's *not* baked. I mean, a pancake isn't cake,
FCOL.

I think the AmE pancake is different enough from a crepe to be differently
classified, but I've heard differing views on that matter.

Post by Alan Jones
Is this kind derived from Dutch
rather than French cookery tradition?

I'd assume that the AmE pancake is basically of Dutch origin. That's what
I'd always been led to believe. I suppose that the whole maple syrup
thing got started over here.

[Daniel James]

... two very different notions of what a "pancake" is.
To me, in the UK, ...

Careful - better make that "England".

The model for a British pancake is probably the Breton crêpe, ...

.. and "English" pancake ...

The US pancake seems to be a more solid, cakey kind of thing, which
could be - usually is? - baked in the oven.

Pancakes I have eaten in the US have been similar to those cooked for me by
Scottish friends, and are what I would call a "drop scone" or "Scots
pancake". They are cooked on flat griddle or in a frying pan. The batter is
thicker than one would mix for an "English" pancake and is spooned onto
the hot cooking surface and allowed to spread out under gravity (no
swirling or spreading) to its final size. They're usually about 3/8" thick
(but that depends on the consistency of the batter) and anything from a
couple of inches to about 8 in diameter - depending on greed and the size
of one's spoon.

Cheers,
Daniel.

[Jonathan Jordan]

Post by Daniel James

... two very different notions of what a "pancake" is.
To me, in the UK, ...

Careful - better make that "England".

The model for a British pancake is probably the Breton crêpe, ...

.. and "English" pancake ...

The US pancake seems to be a more solid, cakey kind of thing, which
could be - usually is? - baked in the oven.

Pancakes I have eaten in the US have been similar to those cooked for me by
Scottish friends, and are what I would call a "drop scone" or "Scots
pancake". They are cooked on flat griddle or in a frying pan. The batter is
thicker than one would mix for an "English" pancake and is spooned onto
the hot cooking surface and allowed to spread out under gravity (no
swirling or spreading) to its final size. They're usually about 3/8" thick
(but that depends on the consistency of the batter) and anything from a
couple of inches to about 8 in diameter - depending on greed and the size
of one's spoon.

Agreed - to me (English, but with Northern Irish connections)
"pancake" can have either the "drop scone" or the "English pancake"
meaning, and my memory of American pancakes is that they resemble the
former. This might suggest that the American pancake has Scottish or
Irish roots.

SRWD, OC.

Jonathan

[Alan Jones]

Post by Daniel James

... two very different notions of what a "pancake" is.
To me, in the UK, ...

Careful - better make that "England".

The model for a British pancake is probably the Breton crêpe, ...

.. and "English" pancake ...

[...]
Apologies - I've never eaten homemade pancakes north of Leeds or west of
Neath, and rashly generalised from that limited experience.

Alan Jones

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Donna Richoux
By the way, since the mid-1990s spelling reform, it's pannenkoek and
pannenkoeken. I found it amazing that spelling reformers would
deliberately insert silent letters into the middle of words, but it's a
grammatical thing. (Kinda like trade union, trades union.)

Not so strange.
The (not always entirely silent) middle n did exist already.
It presence or absence was determined by a simple rule,
albeit one with a lot of exceptions.
Depending on plural or singular mostly.
Ex: It was 'paardevlees' (horse meat) since it is meat from one horse,
but 'bonensoep' (bean soup) since many beans go in.

In 1996 almost all words of this type acquired a middle n,
plural or not, which supposedly simplified the rules.
However, the new rules have exceptions too,
of at least equal complication.
You cannot add middle n-s blindly.
Ex: it still is a 'nachtegaal' (nightingale), not a nachtengaal.

The 1996 change is a perfect example
of how -not- to change the spelling.
The changes were prepared in secret, by a small committee,
without adequate public discussion.
When they became public a discussion about the many inconsistencies
in the proposal was no longer possible,
since the printing orders for word lists, dictionaries etc
were already given.

The trouble is that Belgians are in on it too,
and by treaty with Belgium (taalverdrag)
the spelling changes are decreed by the crown,
(actually the minister responsible for education)
without the possibility of a parliamentary debate.
The respective parliaments have given up their rights.

It was a relatively minor change, btw.

Jan

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by J. J. Lodder
The trouble is that Belgians are in on it too,
and by treaty with Belgium (taalverdrag)
the spelling changes are decreed by the crown,
(actually the minister responsible for education)
without the possibility of a parliamentary debate.
The respective parliaments have given up their rights.

So are the Belgians (and other final-n-pronouncing Dutch speakers)
supposed to pronounce the newly inserted "n" in Pannenkoek?

Am I right in thinking that they pronounce the "n" in "bonensoep"?

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Raymond S. Wise
In another newsgroup, I've been involved in a discussion with a poster from
Belgium about the nature of "pannekoeken." I stated that pannekoeken are
oven-baked pancakes, and as a result are lighter than ordinary pancakes. He
insisted that pannekoeken are not oven-baked.

In America perhaps, but the original Dutch 'pannekoeken' are not
oven-baked. Like French 'crepes' they are made in an iron pan over a
fire. French ones tend to be thinner, and larger.
Pannekoeken can be plain, or filled with al kinds of things, like apple
slices, or cheese. In the Netherlands and Belgium you can still find
panne(n)koekenrestaurants, where you can order nothing else.
They are usually called 'Pannekoekenhuis', or something similar.

And to my regret I have to inform you
that the spelling 'pannekoeken'
is no longer officially correct Dutch since 1996.
It is 'pannenkoeken' since then,
and that is how it has to be written in official documents
and by schoolchildren.
However, not all native writers accept the change.
Many other words acquired a middle 'n' too at the sme time.

Best,

Jan

[Steve Hayes]

Post by J. J. Lodder
And to my regret I have to inform you
that the spelling 'pannekoeken'
is no longer officially correct Dutch since 1996.

Since this is aue, just a note that it would be more idiomatic in English to
write "has not been officially-correct Dutch since 1996."

Post by J. J. Lodder
It is 'pannenkoeken' since then,
and that is how it has to be written in official documents
and by schoolchildren.

Again, "has been" is the more idiomatic tense to use with "since" in that
context.

Post by J. J. Lodder
However, not all native writers accept the change.
Many other words acquired a middle 'n' too at the sme time.

Perhaps to distance Dutch from Afrikaans, in which the final n, as well as the
middle one, has been dropped.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by J. J. Lodder
And to my regret I have to inform you
that the spelling 'pannekoeken'
is no longer officially correct Dutch since 1996.

Since this is aue, just a note that it would be more idiomatic in English to
write "has not been officially-correct Dutch since 1996."

Post by J. J. Lodder
It is 'pannenkoeken' since then,
and that is how it has to be written in official documents
and by schoolchildren.

Again, "has been" is the more idiomatic tense to use with "since" in that
context.

My 'is' was inspired by the pecular use of 'is'
made by those advocating a particular spelling.

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by J. J. Lodder
However, not all native writers accept the change.
Many other words acquired a middle 'n' too at the sme time.

Perhaps to distance Dutch from Afrikaans, in which the final n, as well as the
middle one, has been dropped.

Of course not.
The Dutch don't care about what 'Afrikaanders' write or don't write.

They don't have even the faintest idea about it, usually.

Jan

[Don Phillipson]

Post by Raymond S. Wise
My question is, first, if you
have eaten pannekoeken in your area--and if so, what country are you writing
from--were they baked in an oven and second, if you live in Belgium or the
Netherlands (hi, Donna!), are pannekoeken ever baked in the oven there?

At the waterfront Pannekoekhuis at Kijkduin
(suburb of The Hague, Netherlands) I think all
pancakes are prepared in the oven.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)

[Bill Van]

Post by Raymond S. Wise

Post by Raymond S. Wise
My question is, first, if you
have eaten pannekoeken in your area--and if so, what country are you

writing

Post by Raymond S. Wise
from--were they baked in an oven and second, if you live in Belgium or the
Netherlands (hi, Donna!), are pannekoeken ever baked in the oven there?

At the waterfront Pannekoekhuis at Kijkduin
(suburb of The Hague, Netherlands) I think all
pancakes are prepared in the oven.

At my mother's house in Leerdam, Z.H. in the 1950s, they were made in a
stove-top frying pan. It was a large kitchen stove that burned coal and
wood and it had an oven, but it was never used for pannekoeken.

I baked them on the stove top myself after we had moved to Canada and I
grew up enough to realize cooking was a good thing. They're wonderful
for breakfast with Canadian bacon embedded in them, topped with maple
syrup.

Until recently, it had not dawned on me that you could make them any
other way than on the stove top.

I wonder whether oven-baking is a labour-saving measure used by
restaurants, since stove-top baking (frying?) requires constant
attention to get just the right amount of scorch on the pannekoek, while
oven-baking, once you have the time and temperature variants figured
out, presumably does not.

It also seems to me that stove-top and oven-baked pannekoeken are not
quite the same product. The pannekoeken sold in our local Vancouver,
B.C. restaurant chain De Dutch Pannekoek House are oven-made, I believe,
and they are larger and thicker than the ones my mother used to make,
which were more like French-style crepes.

bill

[Pat Durkin]

Post by Bill Van

Post by Raymond S. Wise

Post by Raymond S. Wise
My question is, first, if you
have eaten pannekoeken in your area--and if so, what country are you

writing

Post by Raymond S. Wise
from--were they baked in an oven and second, if you live in Belgium or the
Netherlands (hi, Donna!), are pannekoeken ever baked in the oven there?

At the waterfront Pannekoekhuis at Kijkduin
(suburb of The Hague, Netherlands) I think all
pancakes are prepared in the oven.

At my mother's house in Leerdam, Z.H. in the 1950s, they were made in a
stove-top frying pan. It was a large kitchen stove that burned coal and
wood and it had an oven, but it was never used for pannekoeken.
I baked them on the stove top myself after we had moved to Canada and I
grew up enough to realize cooking was a good thing. They're wonderful
for breakfast with Canadian bacon embedded in them, topped with maple
syrup.
Until recently, it had not dawned on me that you could make them any
other way than on the stove top.
I wonder whether oven-baking is a labour-saving measure used by
restaurants, since stove-top baking (frying?) requires constant
attention to get just the right amount of scorch on the pannekoek, while
oven-baking, once you have the time and temperature variants figured
out, presumably does not.
It also seems to me that stove-top and oven-baked pannekoeken are not
quite the same product. The pannekoeken sold in our local Vancouver,
B.C. restaurant chain De Dutch Pannekoek House are oven-made, I believe,
and they are larger and thicker than the ones my mother used to make,
which were more like French-style crepes.

I am glad you chose the word "bake" in the stove-top method. While we use
skillets, frying pans, griddles, pancakes in the American way are actually
slow-cooked with little grease (baked) (at least in my experience). Some
cookbooks even call this baking.

I have only tasted the Minnesota "pannekoeken" one time, on a trip to the
Twin Cities. I liked the product just fine, but thought of them as very
fluffy, sweet and overworked. I like my pancakes served with a topping of 1
or 2 basted eggs, preferably with some bacon on the side, and, if possible,
a small cup of bacon grease (besides the butter). (Usually 2 cakes--a short
stack.)

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Pat Durkin
I am glad you chose the word "bake" in the stove-top method. While we use
skillets, frying pans, griddles, pancakes in the American way are actually
slow-cooked with little grease (baked) (at least in my experience). Some
cookbooks even call this baking.

From Dutch 'bakken' of course.
And 'bakken' is the only way you can make a 'pannekoek' in Dutch,
there is no other word for it.

Jan

[Raymond S. Wise]

Post by Raymond S. Wise

Post by Raymond S. Wise
My question is, first, if you
have eaten pannekoeken in your area--and if so, what country are you

writing

Post by Raymond S. Wise
from--were they baked in an oven and second, if you live in Belgium or the
Netherlands (hi, Donna!), are pannekoeken ever baked in the oven there?

At the waterfront Pannekoekhuis at Kijkduin
(suburb of The Hague, Netherlands) I think all
pancakes are prepared in the oven.

Are they thin like crêpes, thick like Minnesota pannekoeken, or
somewhere in between those extremes?

[Jitze Couperus]

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:13:13 -0600, "Raymond S. Wise"

Post by Raymond S. Wise
In another newsgroup, I've been involved in a discussion with a poster from
Belgium about the nature of "pannekoeken." I stated that pannekoeken are
oven-baked pancakes, and as a result are lighter than ordinary pancakes. He
insisted that pannekoeken are not oven-baked.

Pannekoeken were my Dad's forte when I was a lad - he didn't cook
much but certain things were his responsibility - including
pannekoeken (as well oliebollen and sûkerbôlle, but that's another
story)

These were inevitably fried in a skillet to get just the right degree
of browning on both sides. One at a time, they were then stacked
on a plate on top of a pan of boiling water to keep the whole pile
hot until sufficient were ready to serve the assembled company
simultaneously.

But these were skinny things - closer to a crepe than what I get
served as a "pancake" in America. Like crepes, they could be served
with either savory or sweet fillings (bacon, apples, strawberry jam)
but unlike crepes, they did not have a smooth monochromatic
surface. Ideally they had what looked like age spots where a bubble
in the batter had blistered and been burned ever so slightly.

I don't think I ever saw an "oven baked" pancake until I migrated
to Leftpondia.

Jitze

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Jitze Couperus
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:13:13 -0600, "Raymond S. Wise"

Post by Raymond S. Wise
In another newsgroup, I've been involved in a discussion with a poster from
Belgium about the nature of "pannekoeken." I stated that pannekoeken are
oven-baked pancakes, and as a result are lighter than ordinary pancakes. He
insisted that pannekoeken are not oven-baked.

Pannekoeken were my Dad's forte when I was a lad - he didn't cook
much but certain things were his responsibility - including
pannekoeken (as well oliebollen and sûkerbôlle, but that's another
story)

Suikerbollen, in Dutch.

Post by Jitze Couperus
These were inevitably fried in a skillet to get just the right degree
of browning on both sides. One at a time, they were then stacked
on a plate on top of a pan of boiling water to keep the whole pile
hot until sufficient were ready to serve the assembled company
simultaneously.

And if he was good at it he would have shown of by turning over the
'pannekoeken' in the air, throwing them up and catching them again with
the skillet, with no more than a quick flick of the wrist.
For lesser mortals there is a special tool, a 'pannekoekenmes',
a thin flexible steel blade (about 4 * 25 cm) with a wooden handle.

Jan

[Donna Richoux]

Post by J. J. Lodder
For lesser mortals there is a special tool, a 'pannekoekenmes',

So for a compound-compound, you don't have to use the N? Not
"pannenkoekenmes"?

Man, people must have been tearing their hair out over those decisions.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by J. J. Lodder
For lesser mortals there is a special tool, a 'pannekoekenmes',

So for a compound-compound, you don't have to use the N? Not
"pannenkoekenmes"?

No, it should be 'pannenkoekenmes' bij the post-1996 rules.

Post by Donna Richoux
Man, people must have been tearing their hair out over those decisions.

Why follow the rules?

Jan

[Locus]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Jitze Couperus
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 09:13:13 -0600, "Raymond S. Wise"

Post by Raymond S. Wise
In another newsgroup, I've been involved in a discussion with a poster from
Belgium about the nature of "pannekoeken." I stated that pannekoeken are
oven-baked pancakes, and as a result are lighter than ordinary pancakes. He
insisted that pannekoeken are not oven-baked.

Pannekoeken were my Dad's forte when I was a lad - he didn't cook
much but certain things were his responsibility - including
pannekoeken (as well oliebollen and sûkerbôlle, but that's another
story)

Suikerbollen, in Dutch.

Smoutebollen is used a lot for oliebollen over here.

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Jitze Couperus
These were inevitably fried in a skillet to get just the right degree
of browning on both sides. One at a time, they were then stacked
on a plate on top of a pan of boiling water to keep the whole pile
hot until sufficient were ready to serve the assembled company
simultaneously.

And if he was good at it he would have shown of by turning over the
'pannekoeken' in the air, throwing them up and catching them again with
the skillet, with no more than a quick flick of the wrist.
For lesser mortals there is a special tool, a 'pannekoekenmes',
a thin flexible steel blade (about 4 * 25 cm) with a wooden handle.
Jan

[Locus]

Post by Raymond S. Wise
A Google search of English-language pages turns up other uses of
"pannekoeken" to mean an oven-baked pancake. My question is, first, if you
have eaten pannekoeken in your area--and if so, what country are you writing
from--were they baked in an oven and second, if you live in Belgium or the
Netherlands (hi, Donna!), are pannekoeken ever baked in the oven there?
if you have eaten pannekoeken in your area?

Of course.

Post by Raymond S. Wise
if so, what country are you writing from?

Belgium (Limburg, Flanders).

Post by Raymond S. Wise
were they baked in an oven?

No, almost always in a frying pan.

Post by Raymond S. Wise
if you live in Belgium or the Netherlands, are pannekoeken ever baked in the oven there?

Rarely, I would say most people & most places I know bake them, but
the grandmother of an ex-girlfriend of mine sometimes used an oven.
They were much smaller and puffier though, also pretty heavy.

[Donna Richoux]

Post by Locus
Rarely, I would say most people & most places I know bake them,

You mean they rarely bake them in an oven, right? Not that you rarely
say that they do.

Adding to the confusion is the false friendship between Ned. "bakken"
(frying) and English "bake" (inside an oven).

Post by Locus
but
the grandmother of an ex-girlfriend of mine sometimes used an oven.
They were much smaller and puffier though, also pretty heavy.

Interesting.

[Jitze Couperus]

Post by Donna Richoux
Adding to the confusion is the false friendship between Ned. "bakken"
(frying) and English "bake" (inside an oven).

I had never thought of that, but you are right (e.g. gebakken ei =
fried egg) on the other hand a bakker (Ned) is a baker (English)
and a bakkerij (Ned) is bakery (English)

Note also that "kooken" is both to boil and to cook.

The presence of so many false friends can be very confusing.

Jitze

[Locus]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Locus
Rarely, I would say most people & most places I know bake them,

You mean they rarely bake them in an oven, right? Not that you rarely
say that they do.

Something along those lines.

Post by Donna Richoux
Adding to the confusion is the false friendship between Ned. "bakken"
(frying) and English "bake" (inside an oven).

In(der)deed.

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Locus
but
the grandmother of an ex-girlfriend of mine sometimes used an oven.
They were much smaller and puffier though, also pretty heavy.

Interesting.

Extremely.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Locus
Rarely, I would say most people & most places I know bake them,

You mean they rarely bake them in an oven, right? Not that you rarely
say that they do.
Adding to the confusion is the false friendship between Ned. "bakken"
(frying) and English "bake" (inside an oven).

Double false then.
Dutch 'bakken' may be in an oven as well,
'een cake bakken' for example,

Jan

[dwjo]

Pannekoeken are definitely NOT baked in an oven. The word itself [Dutch]
points to the use of a 'pan'. A pan (Dutch) is a (Pan) English.
I am Dutch an can tell you that a 'pannekoek' is cooked in an open pan.
The cooking-time is usually no more than a minute.
When cooked on a greased hot metal surface [cast-iron] we call them no
longer 'pannekoeken' but 'poffertjes' instead.
dwjo

Post by Raymond S. Wise
In another newsgroup, I've been involved in a discussion with a poster from
Belgium about the nature of "pannekoeken." I stated that pannekoeken are
oven-baked pancakes, and as a result are lighter than ordinary pancakes. He
insisted that pannekoeken are not oven-baked.
So I called the Pannekoeken Huis Family Restaurant in Maplewood, Minnesota.
I asked the lady who answered whether pannekoeken were baked in the oven and
she replied that they were. I then asked if they had anything they called
"pannekoeken" which was *not* baked in the oven, and she replied that they
had regular pancakes but they did not call them "pannekoeken." Finally, I
mentioned that I was replying in a newsgroup to someone from the
Netherlands--that was an error, it was someone from Belgium--who insisted
that pannekoeken were not baked in the oven, and I wanted to verify that
here pannekoeken are always baked in the oven. She said, "Yes, here
pannekoeken are always baked in the oven."
I posted about this in the other newsgroup, and speculated that this was
perhaps a case of a word being adopted from one language to another with a
more narrow sense. I gave the example of "tilde," which in English means the
accent mark used over the "n" in Spanish words such as "cañon," while in
Spanish "tilde" has the more general meaning of "accent mark." I asked the
poster to whom I was replying whether pannekoeken are ever baked in the oven
in Belgium or the Netherlands. He has not yet replied.
A Google search of English-language pages turns up other uses of
"pannekoeken" to mean an oven-baked pancake. My question is, first, if you
have eaten pannekoeken in your area--and if so, what country are you writing
from--were they baked in an oven and second, if you live in Belgium or the
Netherlands (hi, Donna!), are pannekoeken ever baked in the oven there?
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

[Raymond S. Wise]

Post by dwjo
Pannekoeken are definitely NOT baked in an oven. The word itself [Dutch]
points to the use of a 'pan'. A pan (Dutch) is a (Pan) English.
I am Dutch an can tell you that a 'pannekoek' is cooked in an open pan.
The cooking-time is usually no more than a minute.
When cooked on a greased hot metal surface [cast-iron] we call them no
longer 'pannekoeken' but 'poffertjes' instead.
dwjo

I've only eaten at a Pannekoeken Huis (when there existed a chain of such
restaurants, see below) once or twice, many years ago, but as I remember it,
they were oven-baked in a pan, what I would call a skillet (not the British
kind, but a frying pan). I'm not going to call them up again to ask them
about it though.

I found an interesting item in a restaurant review from the (Minneapolis)
*Star Tribune.* Reviewing the FireLake Grill House & Cocktail Bar, Jeremy
Iggers wrote the following:


See
http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:h7osnA0k9swJ:www.startribune.com/stories/456/3995157.html+%22pannekoeken%22+minneapolis+review&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

or

http://tinyurl.com/x7pq


[quote]

I was a bit disappointed by my brick-oven apple pannekoeken ($7.75), because
I expected gigantic puffy pancakes like those served at the Pannekoeken Huis
chain; what I got was a flat crêpe topped with apple slices. I mentioned
this to FireLake's very personable chef, Anthonie Dekker, when he stopped by
our table, and he assured me that his flat pannekoeken are authentic. He
should know; he's a native of a small town near Amsterdam. (By the way, the
Pannekoeken Huis chain has gone out of business, but a few restaurants are
operating in Maplewood, Savage and Rochester.)

[end quote]


Note that while the pannekoeken in question is described as resembling a
crêpe, it is baked in a brick oven.

[dwjo]

Post by Raymond S. Wise

Post by dwjo
Pannekoeken are definitely NOT baked in an oven. The word itself [Dutch]
points to the use of a 'pan'. A pan (Dutch) is a (Pan) English.
I am Dutch an can tell you that a 'pannekoek' is cooked in an open pan.
The cooking-time is usually no more than a minute.
When cooked on a greased hot metal surface [cast-iron] we call them no
longer 'pannekoeken' but 'poffertjes' instead.
dwjo

I've only eaten at a Pannekoeken Huis (when there existed a chain of such
restaurants, see below) once or twice, many years ago, but as I remember it,
they were oven-baked in a pan, what I would call a skillet (not the British
kind, but a frying pan). I'm not going to call them up again to ask them
about it though.
I found an interesting item in a restaurant review from the (Minneapolis)
*Star Tribune.* Reviewing the FireLake Grill House & Cocktail Bar, Jeremy
See

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:h7osnA0k9swJ:www.startribune.com/stori
es/456/3995157.html+%22pannekoeken%22+minneapolis+review&hl=en&ie=UTF-8


Anthonie Dekker may be from a small town near Amsterdam (so am I) but his
knowledge about pancakes is limited or pure commercial. Joe Reynolds, the
next poster here, seems to know a lot more about the subject and I would
like to taste the creations of his mom.
The arbitrary wisdom may, of course, be found in a good Dutch cookbook.
(Online : http://bitsyskitchen.com/dutch2.html)
dwjo


Ant

Post by Raymond S. Wise
or
http://tinyurl.com/x7pq
[quote]
I was a bit disappointed by my brick-oven apple pannekoeken ($7.75), because
I expected gigantic puffy pancakes like those served at the Pannekoeken Huis
chain; what I got was a flat crêpe topped with apple slices. I mentioned
this to FireLake's very personable chef, Anthonie Dekker, when he stopped by
our table, and he assured me that his flat pannekoeken are authentic. He
should know; he's a native of a small town near Amsterdam. (By the way, the
Pannekoeken Huis chain has gone out of business, but a few restaurants are
operating in Maplewood, Savage and Rochester.)
[end quote]
Note that while the pannekoeken in question is described as resembling a
crêpe, it is baked in a brick oven.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

[Joe Reynolds]

Post by dwjo

Post by Raymond S. Wise

Post by dwjo
Pannekoeken are definitely NOT baked in an oven. The word itself

[Dutch]

Post by Raymond S. Wise

Post by dwjo
points to the use of a 'pan'. A pan (Dutch) is a (Pan) English.
I am Dutch an can tell you that a 'pannekoek' is cooked in an open

pan.

Post by Raymond S. Wise

Post by dwjo
The cooking-time is usually no more than a minute.
When cooked on a greased hot metal surface [cast-iron] we call them no
longer 'pannekoeken' but 'poffertjes' instead.
dwjo

I've only eaten at a Pannekoeken Huis (when there existed a chain of such
restaurants, see below) once or twice, many years ago, but as I remember

it,

Post by Raymond S. Wise
they were oven-baked in a pan, what I would call a skillet (not the

British

Post by Raymond S. Wise
kind, but a frying pan). I'm not going to call them up again to ask them
about it though.
I found an interesting item in a restaurant review from the

(Minneapolis)

Post by dwjo

Post by Raymond S. Wise
*Star Tribune.* Reviewing the FireLake Grill House & Cocktail Bar, Jeremy
See

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:h7osnA0k9swJ:www.startribune.com/stori

Post by dwjo
es/456/3995157.html+%22pannekoeken%22+minneapolis+review&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Anthonie Dekker may be from a small town near Amsterdam (so am I) but his
knowledge about pancakes is limited or pure commercial. Joe Reynolds, the
next poster here, seems to know a lot more about the subject and I would
like to taste the creations of his mom.
The arbitrary wisdom may, of course, be found in a good Dutch cookbook.
(Online : http://bitsyskitchen.com/dutch2.html)
dwjo
Ant

Post by Raymond S. Wise
or
http://tinyurl.com/x7pq
[quote]
I was a bit disappointed by my brick-oven apple pannekoeken ($7.75),

because

Post by Raymond S. Wise
I expected gigantic puffy pancakes like those served at the Pannekoeken

Huis

Post by Raymond S. Wise
chain; what I got was a flat crêpe topped with apple slices. I mentioned
this to FireLake's very personable chef, Anthonie Dekker, when he

stopped

Post by dwjo
by

Post by Raymond S. Wise
our table, and he assured me that his flat pannekoeken are authentic. He
should know; he's a native of a small town near Amsterdam. (By the way,

the

Post by Raymond S. Wise
Pannekoeken Huis chain has gone out of business, but a few restaurants

are

Post by Raymond S. Wise
operating in Maplewood, Savage and Rochester.)
[end quote]
Note that while the pannekoeken in question is described as resembling a
crêpe, it is baked in a brick oven.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

Hehe. Actually, today was my first time to make pannekoeken! To be entirely
honest, up until yesterday, I had never heard of them. I was just
experimenting with all those various fillings (though my mom was the one to
come up with the cranberry sauce). By the way, chocolate chips is a BAD BAD
idea. They scorch. However, anytime you make it to Conroe, Tx, please stop
by and I would be HAPPY to fix you some of my new favorite recipe.

Now American pankakes. Thats something I know about :-)

-Joe
---
A preposition is a bad thing to end a sentence on.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by dwjo
Pannekoeken are definitely NOT baked in an oven. The word itself [Dutch]
points to the use of a 'pan'. A pan (Dutch) is a (Pan) English.
I am Dutch an can tell you that a 'pannekoek' is cooked in an open pan.
The cooking-time is usually no more than a minute.
When cooked on a greased hot metal surface [cast-iron] we call them no
longer 'pannekoeken' but 'poffertjes' instead.

The difference between 'pannekoeken' and 'poffertjes'
is primarily one of size.
'Poffertjes' are lens-shaped with a diametre of about 4 cm.

Jan

[Jitze Couperus]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by dwjo
Pannekoeken are definitely NOT baked in an oven. The word itself [Dutch]
points to the use of a 'pan'. A pan (Dutch) is a (Pan) English.
I am Dutch an can tell you that a 'pannekoek' is cooked in an open pan.
The cooking-time is usually no more than a minute.
When cooked on a greased hot metal surface [cast-iron] we call them no
longer 'pannekoeken' but 'poffertjes' instead.

The difference between 'pannekoeken' and 'poffertjes'
is primarily one of size.
'Poffertjes' are lens-shaped with a diametre of about 4 cm.

Then I have also heard the word "flensjes" used in the context
of pannenkoeken - but was never sure if this was just a synonym
or it indicated a substantive difference.

And poffertjes - indeed lens shaped (two convex surfaces)
which (in my experience) requires a special poffertjespan
with indentations to accommodate the poffertjes.

But such a pan doesn't have a flat bottom, so it can't
be used on an electric cooker - you have to have gas.
Trying to make poffertjes over the hot coals of a barbecue
doesn't work worth a damn either...

Jitze

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Jitze Couperus

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by dwjo
Pannekoeken are definitely NOT baked in an oven. The word itself [Dutch]
points to the use of a 'pan'. A pan (Dutch) is a (Pan) English.
I am Dutch an can tell you that a 'pannekoek' is cooked in an open pan.
The cooking-time is usually no more than a minute.
When cooked on a greased hot metal surface [cast-iron] we call them no
longer 'pannekoeken' but 'poffertjes' instead.

The difference between 'pannekoeken' and 'poffertjes'
is primarily one of size.
'Poffertjes' are lens-shaped with a diametre of about 4 cm.

Then I have also heard the word "flensjes" used in the context
of pannenkoeken - but was never sure if this was just a synonym
or it indicated a substantive difference.

The same, but I think they tend to be smaller.
And a more pretentious usage.

Post by Jitze Couperus
And poffertjes - indeed lens shaped (two convex surfaces)
which (in my experience) requires a special poffertjespan
with indentations to accommodate the poffertjes.

Indeed. With perhaps 15 holes (haven't counted) for home use
up to hundreds of holes in a specialized restaurant.
(Poffertjeshuis or Poffertjeskraam)
The 'poffertjes' are turned over with a fork.
Trained cooks can produce at incredible speed.
They are usually eaten with a butter and sugar added.

Post by Jitze Couperus
But such a pan doesn't have a flat bottom, so it can't
be used on an electric cooker - you have to have gas.
Trying to make poffertjes over the hot coals of a barbecue
doesn't work worth a damn either...

Two kinds exist,
Pressed steel ones, indeed not flat bottemed,
and heavy cast iron ones with a flat bottom.
The latter type requires more skill:
it is necessary to keep up production at a constant rate
to match the heat flow from below,
since the cast iron reacts only slowly.
If you don't keep up production the butter will burn.
Guess you could do it of a barbeque too,
if you really wanted to.

Best,

Jan

[Joe Reynolds]

I just made a batch of Pannenkoeken. It was fun! I actually got the hang of
the whole flipping in the pan thing. I'm planning on filling the crepes with
cream cheese and strawberries, then serving it at a church potluck on
Wednesday.

As an aside, my mom enjoyed sprinkling them with powdered sugar, rolling
them up, squirting on a touch of lemon juice, then dipping them in cranberry
sauce (homemade of course).

-Joe

Post by Raymond S. Wise
In another newsgroup, I've been involved in a discussion with a poster from
Belgium about the nature of "pannekoeken." I stated that pannekoeken are
oven-baked pancakes, and as a result are lighter than ordinary pancakes. He
insisted that pannekoeken are not oven-baked.
So I called the Pannekoeken Huis Family Restaurant in Maplewood, Minnesota.
I asked the lady who answered whether pannekoeken were baked in the oven and
she replied that they were. I then asked if they had anything they called
"pannekoeken" which was *not* baked in the oven, and she replied that they
had regular pancakes but they did not call them "pannekoeken." Finally, I
mentioned that I was replying in a newsgroup to someone from the
Netherlands--that was an error, it was someone from Belgium--who insisted
that pannekoeken were not baked in the oven, and I wanted to verify that
here pannekoeken are always baked in the oven. She said, "Yes, here
pannekoeken are always baked in the oven."
I posted about this in the other newsgroup, and speculated that this was
perhaps a case of a word being adopted from one language to another with a
more narrow sense. I gave the example of "tilde," which in English means the
accent mark used over the "n" in Spanish words such as "cañon," while in
Spanish "tilde" has the more general meaning of "accent mark." I asked the
poster to whom I was replying whether pannekoeken are ever baked in the oven
in Belgium or the Netherlands. He has not yet replied.
A Google search of English-language pages turns up other uses of
"pannekoeken" to mean an oven-baked pancake. My question is, first, if you
have eaten pannekoeken in your area--and if so, what country are you writing
from--were they baked in an oven and second, if you live in Belgium or the
Netherlands (hi, Donna!), are pannekoeken ever baked in the oven there?
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Post by Raymond S. Wise
I posted about this in the other newsgroup, and speculated that this
was perhaps a case of a word being adopted from one language to
another with a more narrow sense. I gave the example of "tilde,"
which in English means the accent mark used over the "n" in Spanish
words such as "cañon," while in Spanish "tilde" has the more general
meaning of "accent mark."

Interesting. I didn't know that "tilde" generalized. When I was
learning the langauge, the ones over vowels were always "acentos".
Looking at the DRAE, "acento" in this sense is indeed defined as a
particular kind of "tilde". I can't remember what the dots on the "ü"
were called.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |holding a gun to somebody's head.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law.
|If you don't pay your taxes, you'll
***@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine,
[phone] |you'll be jailed. If you try to
|escape from jail, you'll be shot.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke