Discussion:
Auden: the black remov- -ers' van.
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Marius_Hancu
2024-10-04 15:04:36 UTC
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Hello again:

One of the web versions of this poem shows this stanza this way:
~~~
The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black removers' van.
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses and humpbacked surgeons
And the scissors man.

Auden, "The Two"
https://allpoetry.com/The-Two
~~~

My printed book shows it this way:
~~~
The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black remov-
-ers' van:
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses, the humpbacked surgeons,
And the scissors man.
~~~
which is probably Auden's intent, or precious rhymes (groove/remov,
van/man) are lost, as is the separate line "-ers' van:."

Now, how would you read it loud/recite it? I'd leave a beat between
"remov" and "ers," skipping over water:-)

I don't hear that pause in these clips:



Appreciated.
--
Marius Hancu
LionelEdwards
2024-10-04 17:56:39 UTC
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Post by Marius_Hancu
~~~
The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black removers' van.
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses and humpbacked surgeons
And the scissors man.
Auden, "The Two"
https://allpoetry.com/The-Two
~~~
~~~
The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black remov-
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses, the humpbacked surgeons,
And the scissors man.
~~~
which is probably Auden's intent, or precious rhymes (groove/remov,
van/man) are lost, as is the separate line "-ers' van:."
Now, how would you read it loud/recite it? I'd leave a beat between
"remov" and "ers," skipping over water:-)
http://youtu.be/qQuLPINfZZ4
http://youtu.be/157k5esTILs
The guy reading your first clip muddles the first
two lines together, so (present company excepted)
he is an idiot.

W H Auden's best known poem is this one in
"Four Weddings and a Funeral":


Snidely
2024-10-04 21:58:35 UTC
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Post by Marius_Hancu
~~~
The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black removers' van.
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses and humpbacked surgeons
And the scissors man.
Auden, "The Two"
https://allpoetry.com/The-Two
~~~
~~~
The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black remov-
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses, the humpbacked surgeons,
And the scissors man.
~~~
which is probably Auden's intent, or precious rhymes (groove/remov,
van/man) are lost, as is the separate line "-ers' van:."
Now, how would you read it loud/recite it? I'd leave a beat between
"remov" and "ers," skipping over water:-)
It looks a lot like a typesetter's thing. I would expect "remover's"
to emphasize the "move" syllable, and the "er" syllable to be swallowed
by the "'s" (/dz/ sound).
Post by Marius_Hancu
http://youtu.be/qQuLPINfZZ4
http://youtu.be/157k5esTILs
Appreciated.
way back in the '60s, terachers were telling me to not pause at the end
of the line ... the rhythmn should flow without unnatural pauses.

/dps
--
"That's a good sort of hectic, innit?"

" Very much so, and I'd recommend the haggis wontons."
-njm
Steve Hayes
2024-10-05 04:33:55 UTC
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Post by Marius_Hancu
~~~
The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black removers' van.
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses and humpbacked surgeons
And the scissors man.
Auden, "The Two"
https://allpoetry.com/The-Two
~~~
~~~
The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black remov-
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses, the humpbacked surgeons,
And the scissors man.
~~~
which is probably Auden's intent, or precious rhymes (groove/remov,
van/man) are lost, as is the separate line "-ers' van:."
Now, how would you read it loud/recite it? I'd leave a beat between
"remov" and "ers," skipping over water:-)
Tom Lehrer paused when he had a rhyme in a penultimate syllable

When you attend a funeral
It is sad to think that sooner or
later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic
not to mention other adjec-
tives to think of all the weeping they will do.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Peter Moylan
2024-10-05 04:51:01 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
Tom Lehrer paused when he had a rhyme in a penultimate syllable
When you attend a funeral
It is sad to think that sooner or
later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic
not to mention other adjec-
tives to think of all the weeping they will do.
I think that second line is supposed to end with "sooner or l-".
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Aidan Kehoe
2024-10-05 07:52:46 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Steve Hayes
Tom Lehrer paused when he had a rhyme in a penultimate syllable
When you attend a funeral
It is sad to think that sooner or
later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic
not to mention other adjec-
tives to think of all the weeping they will do.
I think that second line is supposed to end with "sooner or l-".
It works, too, and I can’t think of anyone else that rhymes penultimate
syllables in that way.
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
jerryfriedman
2024-10-05 15:12:22 UTC
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Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Steve Hayes
Tom Lehrer paused when he had a rhyme in a penultimate syllable
When you attend a funeral
It is sad to think that sooner or
later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic
not to mention other adjec-
tives to think of all the weeping they will do.
I think that second line is supposed to end with "sooner or l-".
It works, too, and I can’t think of anyone else that rhymes penultimate
syllables in that way.
That's called broken rhyme. A famous one in my
generation is in "The Motorcycle Song" by Arlo Guthrie.

"I don't want a pickle
Just want to ride on my motorsickle
And I don't want a tickle
'Cause I'd rather ride on my motorsickle
And I don't want to die
I just want to ride on my motorcy-
cle"


I can't think of anything like "sooner or l-" though.
Lyrics of musicals would be a good place to look,
but broken rhyme wasn't too comic for Ben Jonson
to use in an elegy.

..Where it were friendship’s schism
(Were not his Lucius long with us to tarry)
To separate these twi-
Lights, the Dioscuri,
And keep the one half from his Harry.

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/50677/to-the-immortal-memory-and-friendship-of-that-noble-pair-sir-lucius-cary-and-sir-henry-morison

The opposite, where a sound from the next line is
used to finish the rhyme, is called "linked rhyme".
I've read that it's common in Welsh, but it's very
rare in English.

She drove in the dark to leeward,
She struck—-not a reef or a rock
But the combs of a smother of sand: night drew her
Dead to the Kentish Knock;

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44403/the-wreck-of-the-deutschland

(Some may want to know that "leeward" is often
pronounced "looward".)

--
Jerry Friedman
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-10-05 15:22:58 UTC
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Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Steve Hayes
Tom Lehrer paused when he had a rhyme in a penultimate syllable
When you attend a funeral
It is sad to think that sooner or
later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic
not to mention other adjec-
tives to think of all the weeping they will do.
I think that second line is supposed to end with "sooner or l-".
It works, too, and I can’t think of anyone else that rhymes penultimate
syllables in that way.
That's called broken rhyme. A famous one in my
generation is in "The Motorcycle Song" by Arlo Guthrie.
"I don't want a pickle
Just want to ride on my motorsickle
And I don't want a tickle
'Cause I'd rather ride on my motorsickle
And I don't want to die
I just want to ride on my motorcy-
cle"
I can't think of anything like "sooner or l-" though.
Lyrics of musicals would be a good place to look,
but broken rhyme wasn't too comic for Ben Jonson
to use in an elegy.
..Where it were friendship’s schism
(Were not his Lucius long with us to tarry)
To separate these twi-
Lights, the Dioscuri,
And keep the one half from his Harry.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/50677/to-the-immortal-memory-and-friendship-of-that-noble-pair-sir-lucius-cary-and-sir-henry-morison
The opposite, where a sound from the next line is
used to finish the rhyme, is called "linked rhyme".
I've read that it's common in Welsh, but it's very
rare in English.
She drove in the dark to leeward,
She struck—-not a reef or a rock
But the combs of a smother of sand: night drew her
Dead to the Kentish Knock;
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44403/the-wreck-of-the-deutschland
(Some may want to know that "leeward" is often
pronounced "looward".)
I thought it was _always_ pronounced like that by people who had
occasion to say it.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Garrett Wollman
2024-10-05 17:29:52 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by jerryfriedman
(Some may want to know that "leeward" is often
pronounced "looward".)
I thought it was _always_ pronounced like that by people who had
occasion to say it.
Not in my experience. Most of the people who have occasion to say it
are meteorologists and reporters talking about tropical storms, since
the two major island groups in the Lesser Antilles are known as the
Leeward Islands and the Windward Islands.

French Polynesia also includes a group of islands, the Society
Islands, which is divided into "Windward" and "Leeward" groups.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
lar3ryca
2024-10-05 21:57:11 UTC
Reply
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by jerryfriedman
(Some may want to know that "leeward" is often
pronounced "looward".)
I thought it was _always_ pronounced like that by people who had
occasion to say it.
Not in my experience. Most of the people who have occasion to say it
are meteorologists and reporters talking about tropical storms, since
the two major island groups in the Lesser Antilles are known as the
Leeward Islands and the Windward Islands.
I always pronounced it that way. I was always interested in sailing, and
spent about 5 years living on my Ericsson 39 in False Ceeek, Vancouver.
Post by Garrett Wollman
French Polynesia also includes a group of islands, the Society
Islands, which is divided into "Windward" and "Leeward" groups.
-GAWollman
--
Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-10-06 06:59:02 UTC
Reply
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by jerryfriedman
She drove in the dark to leeward,
She struck—-not a reef or a rock
But the combs of a smother of sand: night drew her
Dead to the Kentish Knock;
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44403/the-wreck-of-the-deutschland
(Some may want to know that "leeward" is often
pronounced "looward".)
I thought it was _always_ pronounced like that by people who had
occasion to say it.
The Danish word is "luvart" which is pronounced almost like "looward" -
only with a v.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Anders D. Nygaard
2024-10-26 07:33:28 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by jerryfriedman
She drove in the dark to leeward,
She struck—-not a reef or a rock
But the combs of a smother of sand: night drew her
Dead to the Kentish Knock;
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44403/the-wreck-of-the-deutschland
(Some may want to know that "leeward" is often
pronounced "looward".)
I thought it was _always_ pronounced like that by people who had
occasion to say it.
The Danish word is "luvart" which is pronounced almost like "looward" -
only with a v.
... and means "windward", afaik.

/Anders, Denmark
Anders D. Nygaard
2024-10-29 19:46:24 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by jerryfriedman
She drove in the dark to leeward,
She struck—-not a reef or a rock
But the combs of a smother of sand: night drew her
Dead to the Kentish Knock;
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44403/the-wreck-of-the-
deutschland
(Some may want to know that "leeward" is often
pronounced "looward".)
I thought it was _always_ pronounced like that by people who had
occasion to say it.
The Danish word is "luvart" which is pronounced almost like "looward" -
only with a v.
.... and means "windward", afaik.
In which case it means the exact opposite of "leeward"?
That was my point, yes.

/Anders, Denmark

Marius_Hancu
2024-10-09 12:37:05 UTC
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Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Steve Hayes
Tom Lehrer paused when he had a rhyme in a penultimate syllable
When you attend a funeral
It is sad to think that sooner or
later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic
not to mention other adjec-
tives to think of all the weeping they will do.
I think that second line is supposed to end with "sooner or l-".
It works, too, and I can’t think of anyone else that rhymes penultimate
syllables in that way.
That's called broken rhyme. A famous one in my
generation is in "The Motorcycle Song" by Arlo Guthrie.
"I don't want a pickle
Just want to ride on my motorsickle
And I don't want a tickle
'Cause I'd rather ride on my motorsickle
And I don't want to die
I just want to ride on my motorcy-
cle"
I can't think of anything like "sooner or l-" though.
Lyrics of musicals would be a good place to look,
but broken rhyme wasn't too comic for Ben Jonson
to use in an elegy.
...Where it were friendship’s schism
(Were not his Lucius long with us to tarry)
To separate these twi-
Lights, the Dioscuri,
And keep the one half from his Harry.
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/50677/to-the-immortal-memory-and-friendship-of-that-noble-pair-sir-lucius-cary-and-sir-henry-morison
The opposite, where a sound from the next line is
used to finish the rhyme, is called "linked rhyme".
I've read that it's common in Welsh, but it's very
rare in English.
She drove in the dark to leeward,
She struck—-not a reef or a rock
But the combs of a smother of sand: night drew her
Dead to the Kentish Knock;
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44403/the-wreck-of-the-deutschland
(Some may want to know that "leeward" is often
pronounced "looward".)
Thanks a lot.
--
Marius Hancu
LionelEdwards
2024-10-27 23:29:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Steve Hayes
Tom Lehrer paused when he had a rhyme in a penultimate syllable
When you attend a funeral
It is sad to think that sooner or
later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic
not to mention other adjec-
tives to think of all the weeping they will do.
I think that second line is supposed to end with "sooner or l-".
It works, too, and I can’t think of anyone else that rhymes penultimate
syllables in that way.
That's called broken rhyme. A famous one in my
generation is in "The Motorcycle Song" by Arlo Guthrie.
"I don't want a pickle
Just want to ride on my motorsickle
And I don't want a tickle
'Cause I'd rather ride on my motorsickle
And I don't want to die
I just want to ride on my motorcy-
cle"
I can't think of anything like "sooner or l-" though.
Lyrics of musicals would be a good place to look,
but broken rhyme wasn't too comic for Ben Jonson
to use in an elegy.
...Where it were friendship’s schism
(Were not his Lucius long with us to tarry)
To separate these twi-
Lights, the Dioscuri,
And keep the one half from his Harry.
Jerry Friedman
What a great call. Another example in our generation,
albeit when most of us were children, is this one:

"Though you've such a tiny body,
And your head so large doth grow--
Though your hat may blow away
Mr. Yonghy-Bonghy-Bo!
Though you're such a Hoddy Doddy,
Yet I wish that I could modi-
fy the words I needs must say!
will you please to go away..."

https://poets.org/poem/courtship-yonghy-bonghy-bo
jerryfriedman
2024-10-28 16:54:36 UTC
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Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Steve Hayes
Tom Lehrer paused when he had a rhyme in a penultimate syllable
When you attend a funeral
It is sad to think that sooner or
later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic
not to mention other adjec-
tives to think of all the weeping they will do.
I think that second line is supposed to end with "sooner or l-".
It works, too, and I can’t think of anyone else that rhymes penultimate
syllables in that way.
That's called broken rhyme. A famous one in my
generation is in "The Motorcycle Song" by Arlo Guthrie.
"I don't want a pickle
Just want to ride on my motorsickle
And I don't want a tickle
'Cause I'd rather ride on my motorsickle
And I don't want to die
I just want to ride on my motorcy-
cle"
I can't think of anything like "sooner or l-" though.
..
Post by jerryfriedman
The opposite, where a sound from the next line is
used to finish the rhyme, is called "linked rhyme".
I've read that it's common in Welsh, but it's very
rare in English.
..

I see I got that wrong. Rhyming "sooner or l-"
with "funeral" is linked rhyme. However, rhyming
"tragic" with "adjec-" really is broken rhyme.

--
Jerry Friedman
Marius_Hancu
2024-10-09 12:34:00 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Marius_Hancu
~~~
The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black removers' van.
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses and humpbacked surgeons
And the scissors man.
Auden, "The Two"
https://allpoetry.com/The-Two
~~~
~~~
The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black remov-
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses, the humpbacked surgeons,
And the scissors man.
~~~
which is probably Auden's intent, or precious rhymes (groove/remov,
van/man) are lost, as is the separate line "-ers' van:."
Now, how would you read it loud/recite it? I'd leave a beat between
"remov" and "ers," skipping over water:-)
Tom Lehrer paused when he had a rhyme in a penultimate syllable
When you attend a funeral
It is sad to think that sooner or
later those you love will do the same for you.
And you may have thought it tragic
not to mention other adjec-
tives to think of all the weeping they will do.
V. interesting pointed reminder of Prof. Lehrer.

Thank you all.
Glad to see you again.
--
Marius Hancu
jerryfriedman
2024-10-05 15:13:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Marius_Hancu
~~~
The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black removers' van.
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses and humpbacked surgeons
And the scissors man.
Auden, "The Two"
https://allpoetry.com/The-Two
~~~
~~~
The bolt is sliding in its groove,
Outside the window is the black remov-
And now with sudden swift emergence
Come the woman in dark glasses, the humpbacked surgeons,
And the scissors man.
~~~
which is probably Auden's intent, or precious rhymes (groove/remov,
van/man) are lost, as is the separate line "-ers' van:."
Now, how would you read it loud/recite it? I'd leave a beat between
"remov" and "ers," skipping over water:-)
..

I'd pause a little, maybe not a whole beat. There
might even be a hint of a glottal stop.

--
Jerry Friedman
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