Discussion:
Business jargon - reaching out and reverting to
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Steve Hayes
2024-06-24 07:03:00 UTC
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I walked into the sitting room and a TV newsreader told of a road
accident in which a taxi and a truck collided and at least ten people
had been killed.

"we have been trying to reach out to..." he said.

And I was expecting it to be followed by something like "... the
families of the victims."

But instead it was followed by "the Department of Transport to get
more details."

As though the Department of Transport needed their sympathy or
something.

Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring?

A few years ago something similar happened to "reverting to", which I
had hitherto only heard in legal contexts -- a property reverting to a
previous owner or something similar.

How is it that inappropriate usages suddenly become fashionable in
business English, and then seem to be ubiquitous?

Do any of your goodselves know?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Hibou
2024-06-24 07:10:00 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
I walked into the sitting room and a TV newsreader told of a road
accident in which a taxi and a truck collided and at least ten people
had been killed.
"we have been trying to reach out to..." he said.
And I was expecting it to be followed by something like "... the
families of the victims."
But instead it was followed by "the Department of Transport to get
more details."
As though the Department of Transport needed their sympathy or
something.
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To reach
out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed the
mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-06-24 07:18:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
I walked into the sitting room and a TV newsreader told of a road
accident in which a taxi and a truck collided and at least ten people
had been killed.
"we have been trying to reach out to..." he said.
And I was expecting it to be followed by something like "... the
families of the victims."
But instead it was followed by "the Department of Transport to get
more details."
As though the Department of Transport needed their sympathy or
something.
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To reach
out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed the
mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-06-24 07:20:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
I walked into the sitting room and a TV newsreader told of a road
accident in which a taxi and a truck collided and at least ten people
had been killed.
"we have been trying to reach out to..." he said.
And I was expecting it to be followed by something like "... the
families of the victims."
But instead it was followed by "the Department of Transport to get
more details."
As though the Department of Transport needed their sympathy or
something.
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To reach
out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed the
mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I
had nothing to say.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Peter Moylan
2024-06-24 07:28:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To
reach out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed
the mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
Thank you for reaching out anyway.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-06-24 07:40:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To
reach out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed
the mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
Thank you for reaching out anyway.
Well, I wanted to touch base with you all.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Janet
2024-06-24 08:20:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To
reach out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed
the mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
Thank you for reaching out anyway.
Well, I wanted to touch base with you all.
I'll take that on board.

Janet
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-06-24 09:24:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To
reach out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed
the mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
Thank you for reaching out anyway.
Well, I wanted to touch base with you all.
I'll take that on board.
Janet
At this particular point in time, at the end of the day, that's a wise
decision.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Janet
2024-06-24 10:24:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Janet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To
reach out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed
the mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
Thank you for reaching out anyway.
Well, I wanted to touch base with you all.
I'll take that on board.
Janet
At this particular point in time, at the end of the day, that's a wise
decision.
Noted

Janet
occam
2024-06-25 06:20:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Janet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To
reach out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed
the mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
Thank you for reaching out anyway.
Well, I wanted to touch base with you all.
I'll take that on board.
Janet
At this particular point in time, at the end of the day, that's a wise
decision.
Noted
Going forward, I hope that puts an end to this regrettable incident.
Steve Hayes
2024-06-26 04:10:41 UTC
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On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 11:24:27 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Janet
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To
reach out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed
the mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
Thank you for reaching out anyway.
Well, I wanted to touch base with you all.
I'll take that on board.
Janet
At this particular point in time, at the end of the day, that's a wise
decision.
Now you're moving the goalposts without levelling the playing field.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
lar3ryca
2024-06-26 05:09:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To
reach out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed
the mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
Thank you for reaching out anyway.
Well, I wanted to touch base with you all.
  I'll take that on board.
  Janet
At this particular point in time, at the end of the day, that's a wise
decision.
Well, I think we are on the same page as we make our way into our Wednesday.
--
I sneezed a sneeze into the air.
It fell to earth, I know not where,
But hard and cold were the looks of those.
In whose vicinity I snoze.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-06-24 08:47:03 UTC
Reply
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
How refreshing and innovative.
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Thank you for reaching out anyway.
Well, I wanted to touch base with you all.
Touché.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-06-24 15:35:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 09:40:25 +0200
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To
reach out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed
the mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
Thank you for reaching out anyway.
Well, I wanted to touch base with you all.
That's ... very touching. I feel for you.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Steve Hayes
2024-06-26 04:09:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 09:40:25 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To
reach out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed
the mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
Thank you for reaching out anyway.
Well, I wanted to touch base with you all.
Thank you for touching sides.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Paul Carmichael
2024-06-24 09:01:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To
reach out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed
the mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I
had nothing to say.
Thank you for reaching out anyway.
What? No heads-up?
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es
Hibou
2024-06-24 08:23:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
Thanks for the heads-up.

(Strange. I'm seeing meerkats.)
Sam Plusnet
2024-06-24 21:27:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I
had nothing to say.
Thanks for the heads-up.
(Strange. I'm seeing meerkats.)
It will become known as "The Hibou Syndrome" - when images of meerkats
come unbidden to the mind.
Hibou
2024-06-25 04:50:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Hibou
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I
had nothing to say.
Thanks for the heads-up.
(Strange. I'm seeing meerkats.)
It will become known as "The Hibou Syndrome" - when images of meerkats
come unbidden to the mind.
Infamy, infamy! They've all got it infamy!
Sam Plusnet
2024-06-24 21:24:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
I walked into the sitting room and a TV newsreader told of a road
accident in which a taxi and a truck collided and at least ten people
had been killed.
"we have been trying to reach out to..." he said.
And I was expecting it to be followed by something like "... the
families of the victims."
But instead it was followed by "the Department of Transport to get
more details."
As though the Department of Transport needed their sympathy or
something.
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To
reach out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed
the mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
Sorry. I seem to have sent a message with nothing in it -- because I had
nothing to say.
Wow! That's really deep man. I dig it.
jerryfriedman
2024-06-25 12:30:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Steve Hayes
I walked into the sitting room and a TV newsreader told of a road
accident in which a taxi and a truck collided and at least ten people
had been killed.
"we have been trying to reach out to..." he said.
And I was expecting it to be followed by something like "... the
families of the victims."
But instead it was followed by "the Department of Transport to get
more details."
As though the Department of Transport needed their sympathy or
something.
Does anyone else find this use of "reaching out" in inappropriate
contexts slightly jarring? [...]
Yes, it grates - in e-mails from organisations, for instance. To reach
out is fine for physical actions - he reached out and grabbed the
mustard. As a metaphor, it's stale and marks a lack of linguistic
sensitivity.
You find it stale and Steve finds it too new. Maybe a fad can be
both.

I'll add, since I didn't get Steve's post, that the usage he accepts
(get in touch with someone to offer help) was once trendy.

--
Jerry Friedman
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-06-24 07:38:03 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
How is it that inappropriate usages suddenly become fashionable in
business English, and then seem to be ubiquitous?
Do any of your goodselves know?
I see it as a way of making the language more dramatic and the
formulation longer in order to get attention and keep it.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Hibou
2024-06-24 08:12:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Steve Hayes
How is it that inappropriate usages suddenly become fashionable in
business English, and then seem to be ubiquitous?
Do any of your goodselves know?
I see it as a way of making the language more dramatic and the
formulation longer in order to get attention and keep it.
Isn't that linguistic inflation? I think it's hollow and damaging, and
I'm agin it. I think there's more power in using just the right words in
the right order. We sought a comment from Mr Johnson, and he said
"Pfwaaaah!" - that sort of thing.

There used to be a TV series here called 'Back to the Floor', in which
business chiefs went to work incognito in lowly jobs in their own
organisations. This let them see what was right and what wasn't.
Afterwards, they would assemble their managers and impart what they'd
learnt. It was often the case that these chiefs spoke simply and
clearly; it was their underlings who used jargon.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_to_the_Floor_(British_TV_series)>
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-06-24 08:53:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Steve Hayes
How is it that inappropriate usages suddenly become fashionable in
business English, and then seem to be ubiquitous?
Do any of your goodselves know?
I see it as a way of making the language more dramatic and the
formulation longer in order to get attention and keep it.
Isn't that linguistic inflation?
Yes.
Post by Hibou
I think it's hollow and damaging, and I'm agin it.
Brevity can be exaggerated.
Post by Hibou
I think there's more power in using just the right words in the right
order.
I totally agree, and that's the advice our Danish teacher in the
gymnasium (high school) gave us, using other words. He told us to review
the text and remove all the unnecessary 'amplifying' words.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Paul Carmichael
2024-06-24 09:00:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I totally agree, and that's the advice our Danish teacher in the
gymnasium (high school) gave us, using other words. He told us to review
the text and remove all the unnecessary 'amplifying' words.
Like adverbs with English verbs. For most verb/adverb combinations we
have another verb.

Adverbs with adjectives are a different kettle of snails. Painfully
obvious, that one.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-06-24 09:18:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Hibou
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Steve Hayes
How is it that inappropriate usages suddenly become fashionable in
business English, and then seem to be ubiquitous?
Do any of your goodselves know?
I see it as a way of making the language more dramatic and the
formulation longer in order to get attention and keep it.
Isn't that linguistic inflation?
Yes.
Post by Hibou
I think it's hollow and damaging, and I'm agin it.
Brevity can be exaggerated.
Post by Hibou
I think there's more power in using just the right words in the right
order.
I totally agree, and that's the advice our Danish teacher in the
gymnasium (high school) gave us, using other words. He told us to review
the text and remove all the unnecessary 'amplifying' words.
"Omit Needless Words", as The Elements of Style (Strunk) put it.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
charles
2024-06-24 09:30:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Hibou
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Steve Hayes
How is it that inappropriate usages suddenly become fashionable in
business English, and then seem to be ubiquitous?
Do any of your goodselves know?
I see it as a way of making the language more dramatic and the
formulation longer in order to get attention and keep it.
Isn't that linguistic inflation?
Yes.
Post by Hibou
I think it's hollow and damaging, and I'm agin it.
Brevity can be exaggerated.
Post by Hibou
I think there's more power in using just the right words in the right
order.
I totally agree, and that's the advice our Danish teacher in the
gymnasium (high school) gave us, using other words. He told us to review
the text and remove all the unnecessary 'amplifying' words.
Our school maths teacher said "The value of a solution is inversely
proportional to its lenght". That applied here, too.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-06-24 10:00:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I totally agree, and that's the advice our Danish teacher in the
gymnasium (high school) gave us, using other words. He told us to review
the text and remove all the unnecessary 'amplifying' words.
Our school maths teacher said "The value of a solution is inversely
proportional to its lenght". That applied here, too.
<bragging, kind of>

Once at a physics exam in writing I solved a problem with a lot of
computation and temporary results. The solution proved to be something
like 0.9936.

I thought that maybe the solution was precisely 1, and then I looked at
the problem again and found that I could reduce the formula and prove
that the result indeed was 1. That's of course the solution that I
wrote, and I got (partly undeserved) praise for being so smart.

PS. Could I have written "Once at a written physics exam"? What is the
idiomatic expression?
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Rich Ulrich
2024-06-24 14:19:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 12:00:51 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by charles
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I totally agree, and that's the advice our Danish teacher in the
gymnasium (high school) gave us, using other words. He told us to review
the text and remove all the unnecessary 'amplifying' words.
Our school maths teacher said "The value of a solution is inversely
proportional to its lenght". That applied here, too.
<bragging, kind of>
Once at a physics exam in writing I solved a problem with a lot of
computation and temporary results. The solution proved to be something
like 0.9936.
I thought that maybe the solution was precisely 1, and then I looked at
the problem again and found that I could reduce the formula and prove
that the result indeed was 1. That's of course the solution that I
wrote, and I got (partly undeserved) praise for being so smart.
PS. Could I have written "Once at a written physics exam"? What is the
idiomatic expression?
Does saying 'at' suggest oral? Or is it the word 'exam'?

I would say, "Once on a physics test I solved a problem...".

Or, "Once in a physics problem-set I solved a problem..." where
I don't get an ambiguity of written/oral.

My experience having exams is almost 100% 'written' -- but I
agree that 'oral' somehow sneaks in as an alternative. In my
academic experience, the 'oral exam' and thesis defense were
notable parts of achieving a PhD.
--
Rich Ulrich
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-06-24 15:10:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich Ulrich
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Once at a physics exam in writing I solved a problem with a lot of
computation and temporary results. The solution proved to be something
like 0.9936.
Does saying 'at' suggest oral?
No.
Post by Rich Ulrich
Or is it the word 'exam'?
No. It can either. In Danish we say "eksamen" in both cases. We add
"skriftlig" before "eksamen" if it is written.
Post by Rich Ulrich
I would say, "Once on a physics test I solved a problem...".
Or, "Once in a physics problem-set I solved a problem..." where
I don't get an ambiguity of written/oral.
Okay.
Post by Rich Ulrich
My experience having exams is almost 100% 'written' -- but I
agree that 'oral' somehow sneaks in as an alternative. In my
academic experience, the 'oral exam' and thesis defense were
notable parts of achieving a PhD.
In Denmark (year 1964+) we had oral and written exams in grade 9 and all
following years. Danish and math had both. Physics/chemistry was only
oral at the final exam, but we had written ones along the way. Other
subjects had only oral exams.

I do not know the present status, but I would be suprised if oral exams
had disappeared.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Tony Cooper
2024-06-24 17:02:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 17:10:43 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Rich Ulrich
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Once at a physics exam in writing I solved a problem with a lot of
computation and temporary results. The solution proved to be something
like 0.9936.
Does saying 'at' suggest oral?
No.
Post by Rich Ulrich
Or is it the word 'exam'?
No. It can either. In Danish we say "eksamen" in both cases. We add
"skriftlig" before "eksamen" if it is written.
Post by Rich Ulrich
I would say, "Once on a physics test I solved a problem...".
Or, "Once in a physics problem-set I solved a problem..." where
I don't get an ambiguity of written/oral.
Okay.
Post by Rich Ulrich
My experience having exams is almost 100% 'written' -- but I
agree that 'oral' somehow sneaks in as an alternative. In my
academic experience, the 'oral exam' and thesis defense were
notable parts of achieving a PhD.
In Denmark (year 1964+) we had oral and written exams in grade 9 and all
following years. Danish and math had both. Physics/chemistry was only
oral at the final exam, but we had written ones along the way. Other
subjects had only oral exams.
I do not know the present status, but I would be suprised if oral exams
had disappeared.
My experience with oral exams was with the fathers of girls when
picking up the daughter for a date. I never failed one, by my
examiners often left me feeling that I had not adequately justified my
presence and my safety was at risk if I had not provided a true
accounting of my intentions.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-06-24 19:40:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
My experience with oral exams was with the fathers of girls when
picking up the daughter for a date. I never failed one, by my
examiners often left me feeling that I had not adequately justified my
presence and my safety was at risk if I had not provided a true
accounting of my intentions.
It's a bit difficult for me to imagine such a situation because I have
never been in it. I think that that kind of examination is rare in
Denmark. Young people decide pretty much themselves what they want to do
though there may be some that live under restrictions from their
parents. This may backfire.

I have two daughters, and I have had no say in whom they went with in
every sense. Most of their sexual partners have been unknown to me (I
presume), and those I know of have been revealed accidentally - until it
got serious.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Tony Cooper
2024-06-24 22:03:48 UTC
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Permalink
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 21:40:53 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Tony Cooper
My experience with oral exams was with the fathers of girls when
picking up the daughter for a date. I never failed one, by my
examiners often left me feeling that I had not adequately justified my
presence and my safety was at risk if I had not provided a true
accounting of my intentions.
It's a bit difficult for me to imagine such a situation because I have
never been in it. I think that that kind of examination is rare in
Denmark. Young people decide pretty much themselves what they want to do
though there may be some that live under restrictions from their
parents. This may backfire.
Do I need point out that when I was dating girls who still lived at
home it was in the 1950s?

When picking up a date at her house, it was considered as proper to go
to the door. (No sitting in the car and honking!) The father usually
answered the door, and most "grilled" the boy about where they'd be
going and what time they'd be home. There certainly was the
restriction of her "curfew" time. There weren't restrictions laid
down by the parents of where to go or what to do, but there weren't
that many options of where to go or what to do that the parents would
object to.
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I have two daughters, and I have had no say in whom they went with in
every sense. Most of their sexual partners have been unknown to me (I
presume), and those I know of have been revealed accidentally - until it
got serious.
Sexual partners? My comment was about what was done in the 1950s. We
only *hoped* that there might be some activity in that area.

In my own case, I never knew if my daughter was dating anyone in
particular, let alone if she was engaged in being a sexual partner.
She was quite active socially, but always with a group of friends
rather than any specific guy.
Sn!pe
2024-06-25 00:50:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 21:40:53 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Tony Cooper
My experience with oral exams was with the fathers of girls when
picking up the daughter for a date. I never failed one, by my
examiners often left me feeling that I had not adequately justified my
presence and my safety was at risk if I had not provided a true
accounting of my intentions.
It's a bit difficult for me to imagine such a situation because I have
never been in it. I think that that kind of examination is rare in
Denmark. Young people decide pretty much themselves what they want to do
though there may be some that live under restrictions from their
parents. This may backfire.
Do I need point out that when I was dating girls who still lived at
home it was in the 1950s?
When picking up a date at her house, it was considered as proper to go
to the door. (No sitting in the car and honking!) The father usually
answered the door, and most "grilled" the boy about where they'd be
going and what time they'd be home. There certainly was the
restriction of her "curfew" time. There weren't restrictions laid
down by the parents of where to go or what to do, but there weren't
that many options of where to go or what to do that the parents would
object to.
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I have two daughters, and I have had no say in whom they went with in
every sense. Most of their sexual partners have been unknown to me (I
presume), and those I know of have been revealed accidentally - until it
got serious.
Sexual partners? My comment was about what was done in the 1950s. We
only *hoped* that there might be some activity in that area.
Somewhat apropos, see Fats' Domino's "I got my thrill on Blueberry Hill"
and Meat Loaf's "Paradise by the Dashboard Light".
Post by Tony Cooper
In my own case, I never knew if my daughter was dating anyone in
particular, let alone if she was engaged in being a sexual partner.
She was quite active socially, but always with a group of friends
rather than any specific guy.
By the time my own daughters had reached that stage (all too young)
"parental control" was a ship that had sailed long ago.
--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PA, FIBS - Professional Crastinator

My pet rock Gordon just is.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-06-25 07:42:50 UTC
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Post by Tony Cooper
Do I need point out that when I was dating girls who still lived at
home it was in the 1950s?
Okay, I forgot to remember that. But still in the 50's in Denmark it was
as I described as far as I knew. I'm sure that fathers were curious
about whom their daughters dated, and if the guy was brought home, they
may have aksed questions, but I haven't heard of the grilling that I
know from American movies.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Rich Ulrich
2024-06-25 04:48:07 UTC
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Permalink
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 17:10:43 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Rich Ulrich
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Once at a physics exam in writing I solved a problem with a lot of
computation and temporary results. The solution proved to be something
like 0.9936.
Does saying 'at' suggest oral?
No.
Post by Rich Ulrich
Or is it the word 'exam'?
No. It can either. In Danish we say "eksamen" in both cases. We add
"skriftlig" before "eksamen" if it is written.
Post by Rich Ulrich
I would say, "Once on a physics test I solved a problem...".
Or, "Once in a physics problem-set I solved a problem..." where
I don't get an ambiguity of written/oral.
Okay.
Post by Rich Ulrich
My experience having exams is almost 100% 'written' -- but I
agree that 'oral' somehow sneaks in as an alternative. In my
academic experience, the 'oral exam' and thesis defense were
notable parts of achieving a PhD.
In Denmark (year 1964+) we had oral and written exams in grade 9 and all
following years. Danish and math had both. Physics/chemistry was only
oral at the final exam, but we had written ones along the way. Other
subjects had only oral exams.
Wow! Something I don't remember even hearing of!

I can't figure out what I missed because I can't figure what
the tests would be like. Covering details of sections of lesson
plans? Covering the BIG ideas? How long did it take to give
an oral final exam in chemistry or physics?

Our tests, all written, included problems with computations,
and a lot of multiple choice -- sometimes, "Pick the right answer
for the computations." Fill in the blank or short sentences as
answers. Several sentences for 'essay' answers -- Where I
previously thought that American classes missed out was that
I wrote VERY few essays of a page or more; I read about
British schools where long essays were frequent, in several
courses, and wished I had had more of that.

I have a cousin who spent his career as a school superintendent
in Kansas. I'm going to ask for his reaction to all those oral exams.
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I do not know the present status, but I would be suprised if oral exams
had disappeared.
--
Rich Ulrich
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-06-25 08:10:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Rich Ulrich
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In Denmark (year 1964+) we had oral and written exams in grade 9 and all
following years. Danish and math had both. Physics/chemistry was only
oral at the final exam, but we had written ones along the way. Other
subjects had only oral exams.
Wow! Something I don't remember even hearing of!
I can't figure out what I missed because I can't figure what
the tests would be like. Covering details of sections of lesson
plans? Covering the BIG ideas? How long did it take to give
an oral final exam in chemistry or physics?
For some reason I remember the final exam in French. At the table I was
given a French book (I hadn't seen before) and told that I could choose
any section. Then I had to read it aloud, translate it and afterwards
discuss what it was about. I can't remember if I also got technical
questions, but I might have, like "Conjugate avoir in the present and
past".

In Physics/chemistry there were a number of small notes to choose from
and when you turned the chosen one, there would be a subject written
that you had to explain.

The Latin exam after grade 9 was much the same, but the text was one
that we had been working with. I had to read it, translate it and
explain some of the expressions. One of them was "double genitive".

I was a teacher in the common school, Folkeskolen, and the exams
procedure in physics changed while I worked. Before it had been a bit
like my own in high school. The new procedure required that the pupils
formed small groups. These groups would then choose a problem (noted on
a paper backside up), and all the groups would then set up and perform a
relevant experiment. Mean time I and the censor would move around
watching how well the experiments were made, and we would stop once in a
while at a group to ask specific questions or ask why they had done such
and such.

The description sounds like it was a chaos where the teacher and censor
had their heads swirling with impressions, but we did it as a test a
coupe of years and were surprised how comfortable we were with our
evaluation of each pupil. So it became standard. I think that some
teachers let the pupils decide which kind of examination they preferred,
but they invariably chose the new way. They feel more comfortable in a
group. They were/are 16 years old.
Post by Rich Ulrich
Our tests, all written, included problems with computations,
and a lot of multiple choice -- sometimes, "Pick the right answer
for the computations."
In the later years of my work the written exams also were multiple
choice. I am disappointed that it is so. I'd hate to employ an engineer
who has a sheet with:

The force applied to the pylons of the bridge is:
1 10 million N
2. 100 million N
3. 1000 million N
Post by Rich Ulrich
Fill in the blank or short sentences as
answers. Several sentences for 'essay' answers -- Where I
previously thought that American classes missed out was that
I wrote VERY few essays of a page or more; I read about
British schools where long essays were frequent, in several
courses, and wished I had had more of that.
In Danish we had to write essays about a given subject every month - 3
pages or more. One subject was "Free abortion" which was discussed at
the time. In German and French it wasn't mandatory that we had written
work, but we did anyway for every lesson (homework). They were just
small pieces, maybe ten lines. Sometimes translate to [language], and
sometimes translate to Danish.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Peter Moylan
2024-06-25 08:34:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I was a teacher in the common school, Folkeskolen, and the exams
procedure in physics changed while I worked. Before it had been a
bit like my own in high school. The new procedure required that the
pupils formed small groups. These groups would then choose a problem
(noted on a paper backside up), and all the groups would then set up
and perform a relevant experiment. Mean time I and the censor would
move around watching how well the experiments were made, and we would
stop once in a while at a group to ask specific questions or ask why
they had done such and such.
The description sounds like it was a chaos where the teacher and
censor had their heads swirling with impressions, but we did it as a
test a coupe of years and were surprised how comfortable we were with
our evaluation of each pupil. So it became standard. I think that
some teachers let the pupils decide which kind of examination they
preferred, but they invariably chose the new way. They feel more
comfortable in a group. They were/are 16 years old.
As an academic I supervised many lab sessions in electrical engineering.
It was really easy to pick the bad groups, the total fuck-ups in the
class. They were the ones who got the circuit wiring wrong, who blew up
the wattmeters, who were forever at risk of touching their arms against
a high voltage, and so. No problem in evaluating those ones.

At the other end of the spectrum, you could pick the bright students who
did all of the group's work while the other group members hung around
and watched. That's a weakness of group work, where some people just
ride on the coattails of their fellow students.

In the groups where everyone pulled their weight, it wasn't easy to see
the difference between the top groups and the moderately good groups,
because lab experiments were usually designed such that anyone competent
could complete the job, perhaps with a little aid from the supervisors.
To grade the best students, I would much rather rely on written work.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Peter Moylan
2024-06-25 10:16:27 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
In the groups where everyone pulled their weight, it wasn't easy to
see the difference between the top groups and the moderately good
groups, because lab experiments were usually designed such that
anyone competent could complete the job, perhaps with a little aid
from the supervisors. To grade the best students, I would much rather
rely on written work.
"lab experiments were usually designed such that anyone competent could
complete the job". It has just occurred to me that someone reading this
might conclude that I was setting the bar too low. And indeed it was
true that anyone who completed the required tasks in the lab, or who
only completed 80% of them, and turned in an adequate report, would get
a pass mark for that lab session.

In my day lab work was never about assessment. It was supposed to be a
learning experience. Students are given the theory in lectures, but it
helps if they then can see how it works out in practice. Along the way
they learn what various pieces of equipment look like; and if they do
their measurements honestly, they also learn that the difference between
theory and practice is greater in practice than it is in theory.

Since I retired there has been more of an emphasis on progressive
assessment, where the final grade is heavily weighted towards lab
reports and assignments. The reason that is popular is that it's easier
to pass that way. Back when the bulk of the grade depended on the final
written exam, you had to be able to demonstrate that you had understood
what had been taught. That is no longer politically acceptable.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
J. J. Lodder
2024-06-25 10:55:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
In the groups where everyone pulled their weight, it wasn't easy to
see the difference between the top groups and the moderately good
groups, because lab experiments were usually designed such that
anyone competent could complete the job, perhaps with a little aid
from the supervisors. To grade the best students, I would much rather
rely on written work.
"lab experiments were usually designed such that anyone competent could
complete the job". It has just occurred to me that someone reading this
might conclude that I was setting the bar too low. And indeed it was
true that anyone who completed the required tasks in the lab, or who
only completed 80% of them, and turned in an adequate report, would get
a pass mark for that lab session.
In my day lab work was never about assessment. It was supposed to be a
learning experience. Students are given the theory in lectures, but it
helps if they then can see how it works out in practice. Along the way
they learn what various pieces of equipment look like; and if they do
their measurements honestly, they also learn that the difference between
theory and practice is greater in practice than it is in theory.
Since I retired there has been more of an emphasis on progressive
assessment, where the final grade is heavily weighted towards lab
reports and assignments. The reason that is popular is that it's easier
to pass that way. Back when the bulk of the grade depended on the final
written exam, you had to be able to demonstrate that you had understood
what had been taught. That is no longer politically acceptable.
A grumpy old professor I knew long ago called this somewhat derisively
'the shamanic theory of education'.
Becoming a shaman involves going through the rituals of a master,
and doing things in precisely the same way as the master does.
The idea is that the enlightement will come, by itself, in due course,
magically, by repeating everything often enough in just the right way.

Lab practice has all to often become just that.
Students should repeat experiments the way some past master did it,
long ago, and write reports in just the right standard form.

The reason is of course that accurately going through the motions
is much easier to test than understanding of the subject matter,

Jan
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-06-25 11:52:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 12:55:32 +0200
***@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J. Lodder) wrote:

[]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Lab practice has all to often become just that.
'all too often' ; but I expect it's just a mis-key.

[]
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
J. J. Lodder
2024-06-25 21:35:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Tue, 25 Jun 2024 12:55:32 +0200
[]
Post by J. J. Lodder
Lab practice has all to often become just that.
'all too often' ; but I expect it's just a mis-key.
Indeed, thanks, mis. I don't expect my keyboard
to always get double and single letters right.
(and there is the brain too)

I do read back, but don't catch them all,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2024-06-25 12:44:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
to pass that way. Back when the bulk of the grade depended on the
final written exam, you had to be able to demonstrate that you had
understood what had been taught. That is no longer politically
acceptable.
A grumpy old professor I knew long ago called this somewhat
derisively 'the shamanic theory of education'. Becoming a shaman
involves going through the rituals of a master, and doing things in
precisely the same way as the master does. The idea is that the
enlightement will come, by itself, in due course, magically, by
repeating everything often enough in just the right way.
I met an interesting case of this with a Chinese postgraduate student I
once had. When he first arrived I gave him some reading to do, including
copies of some of my own publications. When I tried to move him onto the
next step, of working on unsolved problems, it became clear that all he
could do was to reproduce my own writings. This was very clearly a
result of the Chinese education system. One should confirm what the
teacher has said, not contradict him. I tried to convince him that the
best way to get a Master's degree was to find an error in what I had
published, but that was unthinkable to him. It was a real struggle to
get him to do anything original. "Original" was incompatible with the
way he had been educated.

With another student, an Indian, I discovered that I was a "guru". His
uncle arrived from India to relieve him of routine chores while he wrote
up his thesis. I was a bit disconcerted to find that the uncle, who was
a generation older than me, treated me with the great respect that was
due a guru.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
J. J. Lodder
2024-06-26 08:18:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Peter Moylan
to pass that way. Back when the bulk of the grade depended on the
final written exam, you had to be able to demonstrate that you had
understood what had been taught. That is no longer politically
acceptable.
A grumpy old professor I knew long ago called this somewhat
derisively 'the shamanic theory of education'. Becoming a shaman
involves going through the rituals of a master, and doing things in
precisely the same way as the master does. The idea is that the
enlightement will come, by itself, in due course, magically, by
repeating everything often enough in just the right way.
I met an interesting case of this with a Chinese postgraduate student I
once had. When he first arrived I gave him some reading to do, including
copies of some of my own publications. When I tried to move him onto the
next step, of working on unsolved problems, it became clear that all he
could do was to reproduce my own writings. This was very clearly a
result of the Chinese education system. One should confirm what the
teacher has said, not contradict him. I tried to convince him that the
best way to get a Master's degree was to find an error in what I had
published, but that was unthinkable to him. It was a real struggle to
get him to do anything original. "Original" was incompatible with the
way he had been educated.
I've been told that this corresponds
with the traditional theatre performances, in those parts.
An actor must not give an original performance,
he must reproduce past performances by famous actors
as accurately as possible.
Post by Peter Moylan
With another student, an Indian, I discovered that I was a "guru". His
up his thesis. I was a bit disconcerted to find that the uncle, who was
a generation older than me, treated me with the great respect that was
due a guru.
For what little I know about it gurus and sjamans
are not to different in this respect.
You become one by following a master,
and by repeating his doings as faithfully as possible,

Jan
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-06-25 14:23:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. J. Lodder
A grumpy old professor I knew long ago called this somewhat derisively
'the shamanic theory of education'.
Becoming a shaman involves going through the rituals of a master,
and doing things in precisely the same way as the master does.
The idea is that the enlightement will come, by itself, in due course,
magically, by repeating everything often enough in just the right way.
In Denmark we sometimes talk about "gas station attendant pedagogy"
(Danish: tankpasserpædagogik). The idea is that you open the head of the
pupil and then you pour in knowledge like gas to a car.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Peter Moylan
2024-06-25 10:50:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 17:10:43 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In Denmark (year 1964+) we had oral and written exams in grade 9
and all following years. Danish and math had both.
Physics/chemistry was only oral at the final exam, but we had
written ones along the way. Other subjects had only oral exams.
Wow! Something I don't remember even hearing of!
I can't figure out what I missed because I can't figure what the
tests would be like. Covering details of sections of lesson plans?
Covering the BIG ideas? How long did it take to give an oral final
exam in chemistry or physics?
Our tests, all written, included problems with computations, and a
lot of multiple choice -- sometimes, "Pick the right answer for the
computations." Fill in the blank or short sentences as answers.
Several sentences for 'essay' answers -- Where I previously thought
that American classes missed out was that I wrote VERY few essays of
a page or more; I read about British schools where long essays were
frequent, in several courses, and wished I had had more of that.
In my case it was written exams almost all the way down. I can remember
just two exceptions.

In final year high school French, where the public exams were state-wide
(i.e. not administered by the school, except to the extent that the
school supplied the rooms and most of the inviligators), I had one oral
exam where I had to prove that I could actually speak French, and where
I had to recite a couple of memorised poems. (I suspect that the poetry
was at least partly to check on my pronunciation.) Even then, that was
only part of the assessment. There was still a written exam.

In my final undergraduate year, we had 12 hours/week of lab work, which
was unsupervised and only weakly structured. In a "machines" lab, the
instruction sheet might say "Synchronise this three-phase machine to the
grid, and then find out what you can about the relationship between
torque, speed, field current, and any other relevant variables". In an
"electronics" lab, it might be "design, build, and test an amplifier to
the following specifications". After three years of tightly scripted
labs, we finally had to show our initiative.

Grading such work could have been a heavy load on staff time, so the
staff had introduced a system of oral exams. Every Wednesday (IIRC)
morning, we had to turn up to a reporting session. The people who had to
report were selected by ballot, and there was about one chance in three
that we would be chosen. (If not, we were free to leave.) If chosen, we
had a detailed interview with a staff member, where we had to produce
our notes: observations, calculations, conclusions, etc. No formal
written report, but we were grilled in detail over what we had done and
our depth of understanding.

I don't think I ever did a multiple choice exam, but I did once set one.
I taught a postgraduate subject at UC Berkeley where the rule was that I
had to return the final student grades within (something like) 24 hours
of the final exam. The only way to do that was to set a paper that was
easy to mark, which meant it had a lot of multiple choice questions. I
felt bad about that -- it was a relaxation of my standards -- but not
too bad. Postgraduate students are, on the whole, better motivated than
undergraduates, and will learn even if you don't threaten them with a
tough exam.

Since those days multiple choice has become a lot more common, for two
reasons. The obvious one is that they can be graded quickly. The second
reason is less obvious, but is more important. Both at secondary and
tertiary level, there is a lot of political pressure to make subjects
easier to pass. At secondary level, this usually means higher average
marks. (In the NSW system, a final agreement mark of 50/100 means what
10/100 used to mean, and university admissions staff have to worry about
the difference between 99.5 and 99.6.) At university level, the pressure
is about "productivity": the universities have to become more productive
by giving degrees to the students who used to fail first year.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Chris Elvidge
2024-06-25 11:27:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 17:10:43 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In Denmark (year 1964+) we had oral and written exams in grade 9
and all following years. Danish and math had both.
Physics/chemistry was only oral at the final exam, but we had
written ones along the way. Other subjects had only oral exams.
Wow! Something I don't remember even hearing of!
I can't figure out what I missed because I can't figure what the
tests would be like. Covering details of sections of lesson plans?
Covering the BIG ideas? How long did it take to give an oral final
exam in chemistry or physics?
Our tests, all written, included problems with computations, and a
lot of multiple choice -- sometimes, "Pick the right answer for the
computations." Fill in the blank or short sentences as answers.
Several sentences for 'essay' answers -- Where I previously thought
that American classes missed out was that I wrote VERY few essays of
a page or more; I read about British schools where long essays were
frequent, in several courses, and wished I had had more of that.
In my case it was written exams almost all the way down. I can remember
just two exceptions.
In final year high school French, where the public exams were state-wide
(i.e. not administered by the school, except to the extent that the
school supplied the rooms and most of the inviligators), I had one oral
exam where I had to prove that I could actually speak French, and where
I had to recite a couple of memorised poems. (I suspect that the poetry
was at least partly to check on my pronunciation.) Even then, that was
only part of the assessment. There was still a written exam.
In my final undergraduate year, we had 12 hours/week of lab work, which
was unsupervised and only weakly structured. In a "machines" lab, the
instruction sheet might say "Synchronise this three-phase machine to the
grid, and then find out what you can about the relationship between
torque, speed, field current, and any other relevant variables". In an
"electronics" lab, it might be "design, build, and test an amplifier to
the following specifications". After three years of tightly scripted
labs, we finally had to show our initiative.
Grading such work could have been a heavy load on staff time, so the
staff had introduced a system of oral exams. Every Wednesday (IIRC)
morning, we had to turn up to a reporting session. The people who had to
report were selected by ballot, and there was about one chance in three
that we would be chosen. (If not, we were free to leave.) If chosen, we
had a detailed interview with a staff member, where we had to produce
our notes: observations, calculations, conclusions, etc. No formal
written report, but we were grilled in detail over what we had done and
our depth of understanding.
I don't think I ever did a multiple choice exam, but I did once set one.
I taught a postgraduate subject at UC Berkeley where the rule was that I
had to return the final student grades within (something like) 24 hours
of the final exam. The only way to do that was to set a paper that was
easy to mark, which meant it had a lot of multiple choice questions. I
felt bad about that -- it was a relaxation of my standards -- but not
too bad. Postgraduate students are, on the whole, better motivated than
undergraduates, and will learn even if you don't threaten them with a
tough exam.
Since those days multiple choice has become a lot more common, for two
reasons. The obvious one is that they can be graded quickly.
And more to the point, they can be graded by computer. I worked on a
system to do this in ~1972.
Post by Peter Moylan
The second
reason is less obvious, but is more important. Both at secondary and
tertiary level, there is a lot of political pressure to make subjects
easier to pass. At secondary level, this usually means higher average
marks. (In the NSW system, a final agreement mark of 50/100 means what
10/100 used to mean, and university admissions staff have to worry about
the difference between 99.5 and 99.6.) At university level, the pressure
is about "productivity": the universities have to become more productive
by giving degrees to the students who used to fail first year.
--
Chris Elvidge, England
I DID NOT SEE ELVIS
J. J. Lodder
2024-06-26 07:24:57 UTC
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Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 17:10:43 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
In Denmark (year 1964+) we had oral and written exams in grade 9
and all following years. Danish and math had both.
Physics/chemistry was only oral at the final exam, but we had
written ones along the way. Other subjects had only oral exams.
Wow! Something I don't remember even hearing of!
I can't figure out what I missed because I can't figure what the
tests would be like. Covering details of sections of lesson plans?
Covering the BIG ideas? How long did it take to give an oral final
exam in chemistry or physics?
Our tests, all written, included problems with computations, and a
lot of multiple choice -- sometimes, "Pick the right answer for the
computations." Fill in the blank or short sentences as answers.
Several sentences for 'essay' answers -- Where I previously thought
that American classes missed out was that I wrote VERY few essays of
a page or more; I read about British schools where long essays were
frequent, in several courses, and wished I had had more of that.
In my case it was written exams almost all the way down. I can remember
just two exceptions.
In final year high school French, where the public exams were state-wide
(i.e. not administered by the school, except to the extent that the
school supplied the rooms and most of the inviligators), I had one oral
exam where I had to prove that I could actually speak French, and where
I had to recite a couple of memorised poems. (I suspect that the poetry
was at least partly to check on my pronunciation.) Even then, that was
only part of the assessment. There was still a written exam.
In my final undergraduate year, we had 12 hours/week of lab work, which
was unsupervised and only weakly structured. In a "machines" lab, the
instruction sheet might say "Synchronise this three-phase machine to the
grid, and then find out what you can about the relationship between
torque, speed, field current, and any other relevant variables". In an
"electronics" lab, it might be "design, build, and test an amplifier to
the following specifications". After three years of tightly scripted
labs, we finally had to show our initiative.
Grading such work could have been a heavy load on staff time, so the
staff had introduced a system of oral exams. Every Wednesday (IIRC)
morning, we had to turn up to a reporting session. The people who had to
report were selected by ballot, and there was about one chance in three
that we would be chosen. (If not, we were free to leave.) If chosen, we
had a detailed interview with a staff member, where we had to produce
our notes: observations, calculations, conclusions, etc. No formal
written report, but we were grilled in detail over what we had done and
our depth of understanding.
I don't think I ever did a multiple choice exam, but I did once set one.
I taught a postgraduate subject at UC Berkeley where the rule was that I
had to return the final student grades within (something like) 24 hours
of the final exam. The only way to do that was to set a paper that was
easy to mark, which meant it had a lot of multiple choice questions. I
felt bad about that -- it was a relaxation of my standards -- but not
too bad. Postgraduate students are, on the whole, better motivated than
undergraduates, and will learn even if you don't threaten them with a
tough exam.
Since those days multiple choice has become a lot more common, for two
reasons. The obvious one is that they can be graded quickly.
And more to the point, they can be graded by computer. I worked on a
system to do this in ~1972.
At the time it worked with punched sheets of cardboard.
To grade the answers you just put on the master sheet,
and counted the number of visible crosses.

Jan
Peter Moylan
2024-06-26 08:20:59 UTC
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Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Peter Moylan
Since those days multiple choice has become a lot more common, for two
reasons. The obvious one is that they can be graded quickly.
And more to the point, they can be graded by computer. I worked on a
system to do this in ~1972.
At the time it worked with punched sheets of cardboard.
To grade the answers you just put on the master sheet,
and counted the number of visible crosses.
Ideally you needed two punched masks, to check that
(number of correct answers)
+ (number of correct answers) <= (number of questions)
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Peter Moylan
2024-06-26 09:42:25 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Peter Moylan
Since those days multiple choice has become a lot more common, for two
reasons. The obvious one is that they can be graded quickly.
And more to the point, they can be graded by computer. I worked on a
system to do this in ~1972.
At the time it worked with punched sheets of cardboard.
To grade the answers you just put on the master sheet,
and counted the number of visible crosses.
Ideally you needed two punched masks, to check that
(number of correct answers)
+ (number of correct answers) <= (number of questions)
Sorry. Please correct the obvious typo as you read this.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
J. J. Lodder
2024-06-26 20:12:39 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Peter Moylan
Since those days multiple choice has become a lot more common, for two
reasons. The obvious one is that they can be graded quickly.
And more to the point, they can be graded by computer. I worked on a
system to do this in ~1972.
At the time it worked with punched sheets of cardboard.
To grade the answers you just put on the master sheet,
and counted the number of visible crosses.
Ideally you needed two punched masks, to check that
(number of correct answers)
+ (number of correct answers) <= (number of questions)
Sorry. Please correct the obvious typo as you read this.
Depends on how the unanswered questions count for the result.
Such a mask could also have holes in other places for writing comments
or for sadistic fat red crosses to satisfy the teacher's needs,

Jan
Peter Moylan
2024-06-26 23:40:38 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by J. J. Lodder
At the time it worked with punched sheets of cardboard.
To grade the answers you just put on the master sheet,
and counted the number of visible crosses.
Ideally you needed two punched masks, to check that
(number of correct answers)
+ (number of correct answers) <= (number of questions)
Sorry. Please correct the obvious typo as you read this.
Depends on how the unanswered questions count for the result. Such a
mask could also have holes in other places for writing comments or
for sadistic fat red crosses to satisfy the teacher's needs,
I was thinking more of the excessively answered questions. With a single
mask, a candidate can get a high score by selecting every option for
every question.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Tony Cooper
2024-06-24 16:56:20 UTC
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On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 10:19:36 -0400, Rich Ulrich
Post by Rich Ulrich
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 12:00:51 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by charles
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I totally agree, and that's the advice our Danish teacher in the
gymnasium (high school) gave us, using other words. He told us to review
the text and remove all the unnecessary 'amplifying' words.
Our school maths teacher said "The value of a solution is inversely
proportional to its lenght". That applied here, too.
<bragging, kind of>
Once at a physics exam in writing I solved a problem with a lot of
computation and temporary results. The solution proved to be something
like 0.9936.
I thought that maybe the solution was precisely 1, and then I looked at
the problem again and found that I could reduce the formula and prove
that the result indeed was 1. That's of course the solution that I
wrote, and I got (partly undeserved) praise for being so smart.
PS. Could I have written "Once at a written physics exam"? What is the
idiomatic expression?
Does saying 'at' suggest oral? Or is it the word 'exam'?
I would say, "Once on a physics test I solved a problem...".
Or, "Once in a physics problem-set I solved a problem..." where
I don't get an ambiguity of written/oral.
My experience having exams is almost 100% 'written' -- but I
agree that 'oral' somehow sneaks in as an alternative. In my
academic experience, the 'oral exam' and thesis defense were
notable parts of achieving a PhD.
What about "When taking a physics exam, I solved a problem...".?
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-06-24 15:39:38 UTC
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On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 10:53:59 +0200
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Hibou
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Steve Hayes
How is it that inappropriate usages suddenly become fashionable in
business English, and then seem to be ubiquitous?
Do any of your goodselves know?
I see it as a way of making the language more dramatic and the
formulation longer in order to get attention and keep it.
Isn't that linguistic inflation?
Yes.
Post by Hibou
I think it's hollow and damaging, and I'm agin it.
Brevity can be exaggerated.
Post by Hibou
I think there's more power in using just the right words in the right
order.
I totally agree, and that's the advice our Danish teacher in the
gymnasium (high school) gave us, using other words. He told us to review
the text and remove all the unnecessary 'amplifying' words.
I wish I'd gone to that school; the only bit of English lessons I was any
good at was 'precise' (add an accent somewhere).
Writing a 2000-word essay on (some woolly topic) by tomorrow wasn't any
good for my mental health.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-06-24 19:45:25 UTC
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Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I totally agree, and that's the advice our Danish teacher in the
gymnasium (high school) gave us, using other words. He told us to review
the text and remove all the unnecessary 'amplifying' words.
I wish I'd gone to that school; the only bit of English lessons I was any
good at was 'precise' (add an accent somewhere).
Writing a 2000-word essay on (some woolly topic) by tomorrow wasn't any
good for my mental health.
I didn't do very well in Danish in the gymnasium [1]. I did very well in
German and really well in French. Only afterwards have I gotten
comfortable writing Danish and able to express myself precisely. I only
managed that in glimpses before.

[1] Spelling, grammar and syntax was never a problem for me. It was the
formulation of ideas - or maybe even getting them - that bothered me.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Peter Moylan
2024-06-25 00:17:55 UTC
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On Mon, 24 Jun 2024 10:53:59 +0200 Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Hibou
I think there's more power in using just the right words in the
right order.
I totally agree, and that's the advice our Danish teacher in the
gymnasium (high school) gave us, using other words. He told us to
review the text and remove all the unnecessary 'amplifying' words.
I wish I'd gone to that school; the only bit of English lessons I was
any good at was 'precise' (add an accent somewhere). Writing a
2000-word essay on (some woolly topic) by tomorrow wasn't any good
for my mental health.
I'm with you. In high school I had a read talent for getting a precis
down to precisely 100 words, but I was completely incompetent on long
essays.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Janet
2024-06-24 08:31:00 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Steve Hayes
How is it that inappropriate usages suddenly become fashionable in
business English, and then seem to be ubiquitous?
Do any of your goodselves know?
I see it as a way of making the language more dramatic and the
formulation longer in order to get attention and keep it.
2 many wordz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Janet
jerryfriedman
2024-06-26 15:31:15 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Steve Hayes
How is it that inappropriate usages suddenly become fashionable in
business English, and then seem to be ubiquitous?
Do any of your goodselves know?
I see it as a way of making the language more dramatic and the
formulation longer in order to get attention and keep it.
I strongly suspect that the majority of users, even some
years ago when it was getting going, just thought of it as
the normal modern phrase for that meaning.

As for why inappropriate (or appropriate) usages become
fashionable in language and other realms, the answer
is summed up by an ancient gnome: "Monkey see, monkey
do."

--
Jerry Friedman
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-06-26 16:56:44 UTC
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Post by jerryfriedman
As for why inappropriate (or appropriate) usages become
fashionable in language and other realms, the answer
is summed up by an ancient gnome: "Monkey see, monkey
do."
Yes, but that doesn't explain why the first monkey does it.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Sam Plusnet
2024-06-26 19:40:04 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by jerryfriedman
As for why inappropriate (or appropriate) usages become
fashionable in language and other realms, the answer
is summed up by an ancient gnome: "Monkey see, monkey
do."
Yes, but that doesn't explain why the first monkey does it.
It get bored because people keep demanding the complete works of
Shakespeare. Something to do on its day off.
jerryfriedman
2024-06-26 20:09:11 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by jerryfriedman
As for why inappropriate (or appropriate) usages become
fashionable in language and other realms, the answer
is summed up by an ancient gnome: "Monkey see, monkey
do."
Yes, but that doesn't explain why the first monkey does it.
Either it thought the new form was more dramatic or
heartwarming or something, or it made a mistake. "Reach
out" used to mean "contact someone to offer help" (as
opposed to waiting to be asked), and someone might
have thought it meant "contact someone" in general.

--
Jerry Friedman knows he's just as much a monkey as
the ones he's talking about.
Steve Hayes
2024-06-28 04:52:40 UTC
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Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by jerryfriedman
As for why inappropriate (or appropriate) usages become
fashionable in language and other realms, the answer
is summed up by an ancient gnome: "Monkey see, monkey
do."
Yes, but that doesn't explain why the first monkey does it.
Either it thought the new form was more dramatic or
heartwarming or something, or it made a mistake. "Reach
out" used to mean "contact someone to offer help" (as
opposed to waiting to be asked), and someone might
have thought it meant "contact someone" in general.
+1
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
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