off the dining area to the right of the living room

[tonbei]

I have a question about the following sentence from a novel.

Her room is off the dining area to the right of the living room.
("Red Mist" by Patricia Cornwell, p397)

context (or situation):
1) A hotel in Savannah, Geargia.
2) Scarpetta, Benton, Marino, Lucy are staying there.
3) They have got three rooms, which are connected.

I guess that the dining room and the living room are a common space, to
which their three rooms are connected.

Question:
I couldn't get a picture of the relative location of "her room" and "the
dining room".
Particulary, I don't know the usage of "off" here.

My understanding is:
1) Lucy's room is to the right of the living room.
2) That room is off the dining roor.

I tried to draw a sketch based on what I just imagine.
See below.
Loading Image...

What do you think?

[Stefan Ram]

Post by tonbei
Her room is off the dining area to the right of the living room.

First up, "off" in this context is a total curveball. It's not like
"off" as in turning off your phone or something being "off the hook."
Here, it's more like saying the room is branching out from the dining
area. It's connected, but not smack dab in the middle of it.
- It's connected, but it's its own thing.

Now, "to the" is doing some heavy lifting here. It's giving us
the 411 on where this room is in relation to the living room.

Put it all together, and you've got a mental map of this pad.
The room we're talking about is hanging out near the dining area,
but if you're standing in the living room, you got to look to
your right to spot it.

[LionelEdwards]

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentence from a novel.
Her room is off the dining area to the right of the living room.

It is completely ambiguous. The dining area could be
"to the right of the living room", and her room leads off
it, or her room "is to the right of the living room",
with the dining area being wherever it might be.

No point in drawing maps to define something so vague.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by LionelEdwards

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentence from a novel.
Her room is off the dining area to the right of the living room.

It is completely ambiguous. The dining area could be
"to the right of the living room", and her room leads off
it, or her room "is to the right of the living room",
with the dining area being wherever it might be.
No point in drawing maps to define something so vague.

But why would it make a difference? The sentence describes the room
as adjacent to the dining area. Why would there be any need for the
reader to know if one turned right or turned left from the dining area
to access the room?

The point of the sentence is to state that the living quarters are
fairly compact.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentence from a novel.
Her room is off the dining area to the right of the living room.
("Red Mist" by Patricia Cornwell, p397)
1) A hotel in Savannah, Geargia.
2) Scarpetta, Benton, Marino, Lucy are staying there.
3) They have got three rooms, which are connected.
I guess that the dining room and the living room are a common space, to
which their three rooms are connected.
I couldn't get a picture of the relative location of "her room" and "the
dining room".
Particulary, I don't know the usage of "off" here.
1) Lucy's room is to the right of the living room.
2) That room is off the dining roor.
I tried to draw a sketch based on what I just imagine.
See below.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/9oyZWftIpr.jpg
What do you think?

The layout was specified earlier in the book
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
We are rolling our carts along the balcony that wraps around the hotel's
atrium, heading to a series of rooms that make up our camp, a suite for
Benton and me, with a connecting room on either side: one for Lucy, one
for Marino.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

So Lucy's is on the right.
Don't try to overthink,
it is just trivia to keep the flow of the story going,

Jan

[tonbei]

Here's another sketch I've drawn to correct the first one.
Loading Image...

Simply my question is about the location of "Lucy's room" to the "dining
room" that is defined by "off."
The purpose I'm asking this question is to learn the usage of "off".

When Lucy's room is "off" the dining room, how her room is located to
the dining room?
I guess that her room is just ahead of or beyond it like in the sketch.
Am I right?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by tonbei
Here's another sketch I've drawn to correct the first one.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/FHk38f6AUQ.jpg
Simply my question is about the location of "Lucy's room" to the "dining
room" that is defined by "off."
The purpose I'm asking this question is to learn the usage of "off".
When Lucy's room is "off" the dining room, how her room is located to
the dining room?
I guess that her room is just ahead of or beyond it like in the sketch.
Am I right?

All that it means is that the entry to Lucy's room is through a door
from the dining room.

[tonbei]

It's getting more interesting as I read your replies.

I feel like asking one more question to get clearer the usage of "off"
in such cases.

1) Lucy's room is off the dining area. 2) The dining area is off her
room.



How different are 1) and 2) ? I couldn't get how different they are.
Maybe because I haven't grasped the usage of "off" yet.

[Rich Ulrich]

Post by tonbei
It's getting more interesting as I read your replies.
I feel like asking one more question to get clearer the usage of "off"
in such cases.
1) Lucy's room is off the dining area. 2) The dining area is off her
room.
How different are 1) and 2) ? I couldn't get how different they are.
Maybe because I haven't grasped the usage of "off" yet.

Another room may be "off" the main place that you would
expect to be in, and looking for the other. I think Lucy's
room would be off the dining room and you would say it
that way -- like, a tree branch branches "off" the trunk.

For more complicated situations, or really big or small
houses, I don't know. I think I would want to be more
specific -- "on (a hallway)" or "reached by way of (a room
or hall)" are options.

[Snidely]

Post by Rich Ulrich

Post by tonbei
It's getting more interesting as I read your replies.
I feel like asking one more question to get clearer the usage of "off"
in such cases.
1) Lucy's room is off the dining area. 2) The dining area is off her
room.
How different are 1) and 2) ? I couldn't get how different they are.
Maybe because I haven't grasped the usage of "off" yet.

Another room may be "off" the main place that you would
expect to be in, and looking for the other. I think Lucy's
room would be off the dining room and you would say it
that way -- like, a tree branch branches "off" the trunk.

It seems important to me that "off" represents not just adjacent, but
also connected.

Post by Rich Ulrich
For more complicated situations, or really big or small
houses, I don't know. I think I would want to be more
specific -- "on (a hallway)" or "reached by way of (a room
or hall)" are options.

You can use "off" for driving directions, though: "His house is in
Melbourne Circle, just off Saigon Street".

/dps

[Tony Cooper]

Post by tonbei
It's getting more interesting as I read your replies.
I feel like asking one more question to get clearer the usage of "off"
in such cases.
1) Lucy's room is off the dining area. 2) The dining area is off her
room.
How different are 1) and 2) ? I couldn't get how different they are.
Maybe because I haven't grasped the usage of "off" yet.

In that context, "off" just means "next to, but not part of". There's
an implication that there is access - a door or opening - between the
two rooms.

What baffles me is that you seem incapable of using common sense in
understanding this. The author is describing the location of the
room. The description doesn't say "down the hall from", it doesn't
say "on the floor above", and it doesn't say "at the other end of the
apartment (or house)". It describes the room as being next to but not
part of the dining area.

You have provided sketches showing the relative positions of the rooms
that fit the author's description, so you are capable of understanding
the author's description. Yet, you remain fixated on why the author
used "off".


1) and 2) mean the same thing, and position the rooms the same, but
the author has chosen to use the dining area as the nexus in 1), but
you have used Lucy's room as the nexus in 2).

Why the dining area was chosen as the nexus is either something the
context would reveal, or simply a choice of convenience. We (the
readers of your posts) don't know why the author felt there was a need
to describe the layout because we don't know the context.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by tonbei
It's getting more interesting as I read your replies.
I feel like asking one more question to get clearer the usage of "off"
in such cases.
1) Lucy's room is off the dining area.

You have to go through the dining area to get to Lucy's room.

2) The dining area is off her room.

You have to go through her room to get to the dining room.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by tonbei
Here's another sketch I've drawn to correct the first one.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/FHk38f6AUQ.jpg
Simply my question is about the location of "Lucy's room" to the "dining
room" that is defined by "off."
The purpose I'm asking this question is to learn the usage of "off".
When Lucy's room is "off" the dining room, how her room is located to
the dining room?
I guess that her room is just ahead of or beyond it like in the sketch.
Am I right?

I think the first sketch was better. You can get to Lucy's
room by going through a door from the dining room. I'd
expect you to have to turn--in this case, to the right.

--
Jerry Friedman

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by tonbei
Here's another sketch I've drawn to correct the first one.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/FHk38f6AUQ.jpg
Simply my question is about the location of "Lucy's room" to the "dining
room" that is defined by "off."
The purpose I'm asking this question is to learn the usage of "off".
When Lucy's room is "off" the dining room, how her room is located to
the dining room?
I guess that her room is just ahead of or beyond it like in the sketch.
Am I right?

No further replies, if you snip all of my text.
The explanation is in the part you snipped,

Jan

[Stefan Ram]

Post by tonbei
When Lucy's room is "off" the dining room, how her room is located to
the dining room?

People say, "When everything else has failed, just crack open
the dictionary!". So I'm flipping through my trusty dictionary,
and bam! Right off the bat, we've got:

off (ôf, ŏf) adv. 1. From a place or position

Just to cover all our bases, I double-checked another dictionary:

off /ɔf/ adv., prep., adj. 1 away from or out of a place or position

.

[tonbei]

I asked Google Ai, and it replied


1) The dining area is off the room.
This means that the dining area is separate from the room and not
directly connected to it. It could be in a different part of the house
or building.

2) The room is off the dining area.
This means that the room is connected to the dining area, but it's a
separate space. It's like a bedroom or a living room that is adjacent to
the dining area.

So, the two sentences convey different spatial relationships between the
room and the dining area.

-----------------
I feel that I've learned that, depending on "A off B", or what is A and
B, spatial relationships vary a little , or its extent of connection, or
direct or indirect. Such subtleties are hard for non-natives to come
to grasp, or it takes long.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by tonbei
I asked Google Ai, and it replied
1) The dining area is off the room.
This means that the dining area is separate from the room and not
directly connected to it. It could be in a different part of the house
or building.

I would not trust the "Ai" you used to provide useful information. No
native-English-speaking person would understand that the dining area
and the room could be in a different part of the house or building
when the dining area is described as "off the room".

If you decide to embark on a career in dismantling unexploded bombs, I
hope that the instruction manual you use is not generated by that
"Ai".

Post by tonbei
2) The room is off the dining area.
This means that the room is connected to the dining area, but it's a
separate space. It's like a bedroom or a living room that is adjacent to
the dining area.
So, the two sentences convey different spatial relationships between the
room and the dining area.
-----------------
I feel that I've learned that, depending on "A off B", or what is A and
B, spatial relationships vary a little , or its extent of connection, or
direct or indirect. Such subtleties are hard for non-natives to come
to grasp, or it takes long.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by tonbei
I asked Google Ai, and it replied
1) The dining area is off the room.
This means that the dining area is separate from the room and not
directly connected to it. It could be in a different part of the house
or building.

I would not trust the "Ai" you used to provide useful information. No
native-English-speaking person would understand that the dining area
and the room could be in a different part of the house or building
when the dining area is described as "off the room".

..

Agreed.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Stefan Ram]

Post by tonbei
So, the two sentences convey different spatial relationships between the
room and the dining area.

Here are two meanings of "off" with some examples:

off: "Opening or turning out from; adjacent, adjoining."

|Well, we have two rooms, as large as your green room—& a shed
|room off, that is soaked with water when it rains.

|My room had a balcony and a bathroom off.

|There's a nice little flatlet on the second floor. Bathroom,
|bedroom with double bed, kitchen off.

off: "Opening or turning out of; next to, leading from, not far from.

|An piece of ground..to be an entry to the said John his back
|door off the foregate in all times coming.

|In Mary's little room (off my uncle's).

|Watling-street, Bow-lane, Old-change, and other thoroughfares
|off Cheapside and Cornhill.

|In a small street off one of the west-central squares.

|Four rooms opened off it; at any moment a door might be
|opened, or blow open, sending a draught down one's neck.

|I'll show you your room. There's a shower off it.

|Henry, Agnes and their child, Francesca, moved to a flat just
|off the King's Road.

.

[Snidely]

Just this Thursday, tonbei explained that ...

Post by tonbei
I asked Google Ai, and it replied
1) The dining area is off the room.
This means that the dining area is separate from the room and not
directly connected to it. It could be in a different part of the house
or building.
2) The room is off the dining area.
This means that the room is connected to the dining area, but it's a
separate space. It's like a bedroom or a living room that is adjacent to
the dining area.
So, the two sentences convey different spatial relationships between the
room and the dining area.
-----------------
I feel that I've learned that, depending on "A off B", or what is A and
B, spatial relationships vary a little , or its extent of connection, or
direct or indirect. Such subtleties are hard for non-natives to come
to grasp, or it takes long.

I imagine that your native language has such subtleties, too, and we
might end up in a similar confusion.

BTW, I would recommend changing your last phrase to "it takes a long
time".

I don't think the AI got 1) right. There needs to be a connection.

/dps

[Peter Moylan]

Post by tonbei
I asked Google Ai, and it replied
1) The dining area is off the room.
This means that the dining area is separate from the room and not
directly connected to it. It could be in a different part of the house
or building.

I agree with Tony, Jerry, and Snidely. This is complete bullshit.

Yet another example of where Google AI gets it wrong. Google should
retire this machine and stop misleading people.

[Snidely]

Just this Thursday, Peter Moylan explained that ...

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by tonbei
I asked Google Ai, and it replied
1) The dining area is off the room.
This means that the dining area is separate from the room and not
directly connected to it. It could be in a different part of the house
or building.

I agree with Tony, Jerry, and Snidely. This is complete bullshit.
Yet another example of where Google AI gets it wrong. Google should
retire this machine and stop misleading people.

LLMs in general understand the form of the reply, and what elements
compose it, and they give statistically valid responses, but there is
no understanding and fact checking is external to the LLM.

Consider the convincing "references" cited in the past ... actual
journals, proper footnote form, and completely bogus entries. And the
examples of LLMs "lying". The only truth they know are frequencies.


/dps

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by tonbei
I asked Google Ai, and it replied
1) The dining area is off the room.
This means that the dining area is separate from the room and not
directly connected to it. It could be in a different part of the house
or building.

I agree with Tony, Jerry, and Snidely. This is complete bullshit.
Yet another example of where Google AI gets it wrong. Google should
retire this machine and stop misleading people.

How many people are going to accept the computers word on this, and not
yours/ours?

[Silvano]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by tonbei
I asked Google Ai, and it replied
1) The dining area is off the room.
This means that the dining area is separate from the room and not
directly connected to it. It could be in a different part of the house
or building.

I agree with Tony, Jerry, and Snidely. This is complete bullshit.
Yet another example of where Google AI gets it wrong. Google should
retire this machine and stop misleading people.

How many people are going to accept the computers word on this, and not
yours/ours?

Too many.

Italian saying: La mamma degli sciocchi è sempre incinta.
Word for word translation for English speakers: The mother of fools is
always pregnant.
Better suggestions? You are the native English speakers.
BTW: "sciocchi" is much too weak, IMHO, but perhaps it was not so some
centuries ago, when this saying became established. I'd rather use
"idioti" and its obvious translation "idiots".

[Hibou]

Post by Silvano

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Peter Moylan
I agree with Tony, Jerry, and Snidely. This is complete bullshit.
Yet another example of where Google AI gets it wrong. Google should
retire this machine and stop misleading people.

How many people are going to accept the computers word on this, and not
yours/ours?

Too many.
Italian saying: La mamma degli sciocchi è sempre incinta.
Word for word translation for English speakers: The mother of fools is
always pregnant.
Better suggestions? You are the native English speakers.
BTW: "sciocchi" is much too weak, IMHO, but perhaps it was not so some
centuries ago, when this saying became established. I'd rather use
"idioti" and its obvious translation "idiots".

However one translates it - There's always some woman up the duff with a
duffer, etc. - it's unfamiliar to English speakers, and is going to
require a moment's thought to understand it. So I think I'd just reach
for the classic English "There's one born every minute".

[Hibou]

Post by tonbei
I have a question about the following sentence from a novel.
Her room is off the dining area to the right of the living room.
("Red Mist" by Patricia Cornwell, p397)
1) A hotel in Savannah, Geargia.
2) Scarpetta, Benton, Marino, Lucy are staying there.
3) They have got three rooms, which are connected.
I guess that the dining room and the living room are a common space, to
which their three rooms are connected.
I couldn't get a picture of the relative location of "her room" and "the
dining room".
Particulary, I don't know the usage of "off" here.

'Off' in this sense means adjacent to. It's often preceded by 'just'. (I
used to have a book called 'Just Off the Motorway', which listed filling
stations and eateries close to motorways and cheaper than those at
motorway service areas.)

The pub is just off the High Street.
The boat was anchored off the northern coast of the peninsula.
It's an island off the east coast of Spain.

Post by tonbei
1) Lucy's room is to the right of the living room.
2) That room is off the dining roor.
I tried to draw a sketch based on what I just imagine.
See below.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/9oyZWftIpr.jpg
What do you think?

I think you're trying to extract too much detail from what Cornwell says.