Inkhorns are a fascinating linguistic phenomenon, ...

[HenHanna]

An inkhorn is a small, portable container used to hold ink. It
was a common tool for writers and scholars in earlier times, especially
before the invention of fountain pens.

Inkhorn containers could be made from various materials,
including horn, wood, metal, or even pottery. They often had a small
opening at the top for dipping a pen into the ink.

_______________

Inkhorns: A Curious Case of Words

Inkhorns are a fascinating linguistic phenomenon,
referring to foreign words or phrases that are adopted into a language
in a pretentious or affected manner. They often come from Latin or
Greek, languages that were once considered the height of intellectual
and cultural achievement.


Why "Inkhorns"?
The term "inkhorn" is a metaphor that alludes to the
scholarly or academic setting where these words were often introduced.
The inkwell was a common tool in the study, and the "inkhorn" became
associated with the pretentious or pedantic use of language.


Examples of Inkhorns

While the use of inkhorns has declined over time, many
have become so ingrained in our language that we no longer recognize
them as foreign. Here are a few examples:

Utilize: From Latin utilis (useful)
Magnanimous: From Latin magnus (great) + animus (spirit)

Ephemeral: From Greek ephemeros (lasting for a day)
Quintessential: From Latin quintus (fifth) + essentia (essence)


Latin-Based

Adieu: From Latin ad (to) + deo (god)
Gratis: From Latin gratis (free)
Plenary: From Latin plenus (full)
Sublime: From Latin sublimis (high)
Verisimilitude: From Latin verus (true) + similis (similar)

Greek-Based

Algorithm: From Arabic al-khwarizmi, referring to the Persian
mathematician Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi

Philanthropy: From Greek philos (loving) + anthropos (human)

Technocracy: From Greek techne (art, skill) + kratos (rule)

Pandemic: From Greek pan (all) + demos (people)

------- i thought it came from [Everywhere, Demons]

[Ed Cryer]

       An inkhorn is a small, portable container used to hold ink. It
was a common tool for writers and scholars in earlier times, especially
before the invention of fountain pens.
       Inkhorn containers could be made from various materials,
including horn, wood, metal, or even pottery. They often had a small
opening at the top for dipping a pen into the ink.
_______________
Inkhorns: A Curious Case of Words
               Inkhorns are a fascinating linguistic phenomenon,
referring to foreign words or phrases that are adopted into a language
in a pretentious or affected manner.    They often come from Latin or
Greek, languages that were once considered the height of intellectual
and cultural achievement.
Why "Inkhorns"?
               The term "inkhorn" is a metaphor that alludes to the
scholarly or academic setting where these words were often introduced.
The inkwell was a common tool in the study, and the "inkhorn" became
associated with the pretentious or pedantic use of language.
Examples of Inkhorns
               While the use of inkhorns has declined over time, many
have become so ingrained in our language that we no longer recognize
          Utilize:         From Latin utilis (useful)
          Magnanimous:     From Latin magnus (great) + animus (spirit)
      Ephemeral:         From Greek ephemeros (lasting for a day)
      Quintessential:    From Latin quintus (fifth) + essentia (essence)
Latin-Based
       Adieu: From Latin ad (to) + deo (god)
       Gratis: From Latin gratis (free)
       Plenary: From Latin plenus (full)
       Sublime: From Latin sublimis (high)
       Verisimilitude: From Latin verus (true) + similis (similar)
Greek-Based
      Algorithm: From Arabic al-khwarizmi, referring to the Persian
                      mathematician Muhammad ibn Musa al-Khwarizmi
      Philanthropy: From Greek philos (loving) + anthropos (human)
      Technocracy: From Greek techne (art, skill) + kratos (rule)
      Pandemic: From Greek pan (all) + demos (people)
                ------- i thought it came from    [Everywhere, Demons]

English is so riddled with Latin (often taken in through French) that

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Ed Cryer
English is so riddled with Latin (often taken in through French) that
it's almost turned into a Romance language.

As someone pointed out here quite recently: German is made harder for an
English speaker to learn because so much Germanic vocabulary -- words
that used to exist in English -- has simply dropped out of the English
language.

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ed Cryer
English is so riddled with Latin (often taken in through French) that
 it's almost turned into a Romance language.

As someone pointed out here quite recently: German is made harder for an
English speaker to learn because so much Germanic vocabulary -- words
that used to exist in English -- has simply dropped out of the English
language.

It's calculated that about 5.6% of German words are from Latin; whereas
English has well over 60%.

I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Bri

[Janet]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ed Cryer
English is so riddled with Latin (often taken in through French) that
 it's almost turned into a Romance language.

As someone pointed out here quite recently: German is made harder for an
English speaker to learn because so much Germanic vocabulary -- words
that used to exist in English -- has simply dropped out of the English
language.

It's calculated that about 5.6% of German words are from Latin; whereas
English has well over 60%.
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.

Quite aside from Roman occupation, Latin was the
language of the Catholic Church and many legal documents.

Janet

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Janet

Post by Ed Cryer
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.

Quite aside from Roman occupation, Latin was the
language of the Catholic Church and many legal documents.

I don't think either of those had much influence on English.

The English arived in Britain after the Romans departed, and they
conquered the Romano-British, and so imposed their language rather
than adopting the language of those they had conquered (though their
cousins the Franks did the opposite when they conquered Gaul).

But when the Norman-French conquered England in the 11th century they
brought their laqnguage as the overlords, and it exerted a strong
influence on the English, so many Latin words came in via French.

And the Renaissance was another infuence, bringing in a lot of Greek
and Latin words, which had higher social status.

So four-letter Anglo-Saxon words were rude, crude, common, vulgar and
churlish, while much longer words derived from Greek and Latin were
refined, upper-class (at least until the middle-class started to
emulate the upper-class, when some of them became non-U).

So a refined and educated female had a uterus, while a churlish one
had a womb. A refined and educated male had a penis, while a peasant
yobbo had a cock.

One could make a long list of them:

shit -- faeces
fuck -- copulate
and so on.

It's one of the reasons why English has so many different words for
the same thing, with the Germanic ones having a lower class status
compared with the Greek/Latin/French ones.

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Janet

Post by Ed Cryer
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.

Quite aside from Roman occupation, Latin was the
language of the Catholic Church and many legal documents.

I don't think either of those had much influence on English.
The English arived in Britain after the Romans departed, and they
conquered the Romano-British, and so imposed their language rather
than adopting the language of those they had conquered (though their
cousins the Franks did the opposite when they conquered Gaul).
But when the Norman-French conquered England in the 11th century they
brought their laqnguage as the overlords, and it exerted a strong
influence on the English, so many Latin words came in via French.
And the Renaissance was another infuence, bringing in a lot of Greek
and Latin words, which had higher social status.
So four-letter Anglo-Saxon words were rude, crude, common, vulgar and
churlish, while much longer words derived from Greek and Latin were
refined, upper-class (at least until the middle-class started to
emulate the upper-class, when some of them became non-U).
So a refined and educated female had a uterus, while a churlish one
had a womb. A refined and educated male had a penis, while a peasant
yobbo had a cock.
shit -- faeces
fuck -- copulate
and so on.
It's one of the reasons why English has so many different words for
the same thing, with the Germanic ones having a lower class status
compared with the Greek/Latin/French ones.

I think you've hit the answer here with the Normandy French invasion. It
was complete and utterly changed Britain And it brought in a very strong
class divide. The feudal serfs tended cows, pigs, sheep; the Norman
masters ate beef, pork, mutton.

To step up the social ladder you had to use French language.

Ed

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Janet

Post by Ed Cryer
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.

Quite aside from Roman occupation, Latin was the
language of the Catholic Church and many legal documents.

I don't think either of those had much influence on English.
The English arived in Britain after the Romans departed, and they
conquered the Romano-British, and so imposed their language rather
than adopting the language of those they had conquered (though their
cousins the Franks did the opposite when they conquered Gaul).
But when the Norman-French conquered England in the 11th century they
brought their laqnguage as the overlords, and it exerted a strong
influence on the English, so many Latin words came in via French.
And the Renaissance was another infuence, bringing in a lot of Greek
and Latin words, which had higher social status.
So four-letter Anglo-Saxon words were rude, crude, common, vulgar and
churlish, while much longer words derived from Greek and Latin were
refined, upper-class (at least until the middle-class started to
emulate the upper-class, when some of them became non-U).
So a refined and educated female had a uterus, while a churlish one
had a womb. A refined and educated male had a penis, while a peasant
yobbo had a cock.
shit -- faeces
fuck -- copulate
and so on.
It's one of the reasons why English has so many different words for
the same thing, with the Germanic ones having a lower class status
compared with the Greek/Latin/French ones.

I think you've hit the answer here with the Normandy French invasion. It
was complete and utterly changed Britain And it brought in a very strong
class divide. The feudal serfs tended cows, pigs, sheep; the Norman
masters ate beef, pork, mutton.
To step up the social ladder you had to use French language.

Yes, or to Frenchify your English.

The Latinisation of English happened in two stages, both driven by the
upper class, who were largely of Norman-French origin.

The first stage was the invasion itself, and the subsequent control of
England through ousting the local Anglo-Saxon nobility and replacing
them with Norman-French ones, who built castles to control the
populacve and put down resistance movements.

The second phase was the Renaissance, which aroused, in the upper
class, an admiration for Latin and Greek classical antiquity, and so
pupils at public schools were taught Latin and Greek in their presumed
classical forms (rather than the altered form perpetuated by medieval
bureaucracy) and so classical Latin and Greek regarded as high-status
languages and many consciously adopted neologisms were based on them,
including such words as television, automobile and the like.

Purists and nationalists of Germanic languages tried to plug more
native-sounding words -- in Afrikaans, for example, television was
"beeldradio", but eventually "televisie" won out.

In English there was a battle in publishing, which hasn't yet been
decided, between:

foreword preface
handbook manual

and so on.

[Silvano]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Ed Cryer

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Janet

Post by Ed Cryer
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.

Quite aside from Roman occupation, Latin was the
language of the Catholic Church and many legal documents.

I don't think either of those had much influence on English.
The English arived in Britain after the Romans departed, and they
conquered the Romano-British, and so imposed their language rather
than adopting the language of those they had conquered (though their
cousins the Franks did the opposite when they conquered Gaul).
But when the Norman-French conquered England in the 11th century they
brought their laqnguage as the overlords, and it exerted a strong
influence on the English, so many Latin words came in via French.
And the Renaissance was another infuence, bringing in a lot of Greek
and Latin words, which had higher social status.
So four-letter Anglo-Saxon words were rude, crude, common, vulgar and
churlish, while much longer words derived from Greek and Latin were
refined, upper-class (at least until the middle-class started to
emulate the upper-class, when some of them became non-U).
So a refined and educated female had a uterus, while a churlish one
had a womb. A refined and educated male had a penis, while a peasant
yobbo had a cock.
shit -- faeces
fuck -- copulate
and so on.
It's one of the reasons why English has so many different words for
the same thing, with the Germanic ones having a lower class status
compared with the Greek/Latin/French ones.

I think you've hit the answer here with the Normandy French invasion. It
was complete and utterly changed Britain And it brought in a very strong
class divide. The feudal serfs tended cows, pigs, sheep; the Norman
masters ate beef, pork, mutton.
To step up the social ladder you had to use French language.

Yes, or to Frenchify your English.
The Latinisation of English happened in two stages, both driven by the
upper class, who were largely of Norman-French origin.
The first stage was the invasion itself, and the subsequent control of
England through ousting the local Anglo-Saxon nobility and replacing
them with Norman-French ones, who built castles to control the
populacve and put down resistance movements.
The second phase was the Renaissance, which aroused, in the upper
class, an admiration for Latin and Greek classical antiquity, and so
pupils at public schools were taught Latin and Greek in their presumed
classical forms (rather than the altered form perpetuated by medieval
bureaucracy) and so classical Latin and Greek regarded as high-status
languages and many consciously adopted neologisms were based on them,
including such words as television, automobile and the like.
Purists and nationalists of Germanic languages tried to plug more
native-sounding words -- in Afrikaans, for example, television was
"beeldradio", but eventually "televisie" won out.
In English there was a battle in publishing, which hasn't yet been
foreword preface
handbook manual
and so on.

Please note, however, that Chaucer wrote before the Renaissance began,
but his Middle English had already lost the Old English declination
system and most of the OE conjugation.

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 17 Sep 2024 08:27:41 +0200, Silvano
took me to a page that had NO information about terms and conditions.

Post by Silvano

Post by Steve Hayes
The first stage was the invasion itself, and the subsequent control of
England through ousting the local Anglo-Saxon nobility and replacing
them with Norman-French ones, who built castles to control the
populacve and put down resistance movements.
The second phase was the Renaissance, which aroused, in the upper
class, an admiration for Latin and Greek classical antiquity, and so
pupils at public schools were taught Latin and Greek in their presumed
classical forms (rather than the altered form perpetuated by medieval
bureaucracy) and so classical Latin and Greek regarded as high-status
languages and many consciously adopted neologisms were based on them,
including such words as television, automobile and the like.
Purists and nationalists of Germanic languages tried to plug more
native-sounding words -- in Afrikaans, for example, television was
"beeldradio", but eventually "televisie" won out.
In English there was a battle in publishing, which hasn't yet been
foreword preface
handbook manual
and so on.

Please note, however, that Chaucer wrote before the Renaissance began,
but his Middle English had already lost the Old English declination
system and most of the OE conjugation.

Aye, but that had little to do with the incorporating words of Latin
origin, either in addition to or are instead of the older Germanic
words.

[Janet]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 17 Sep 2024 08:27:41 +0200, Silvano
took me to a page that had NO information about terms and conditions.

Post by Silvano

Post by Steve Hayes
The first stage was the invasion itself, and the subsequent control

of

Post by Silvano

Post by Steve Hayes
England through ousting the local Anglo-Saxon nobility and replacing
them with Norman-French ones, who built castles to control the
populacve and put down resistance movements.
The second phase was the Renaissance, which aroused, in the upper
class, an admiration for Latin and Greek classical antiquity, and so
pupils at public schools were taught Latin and Greek in their presumed
classical forms (rather than the altered form perpetuated by medieval
bureaucracy) and so classical Latin and Greek regarded as high-status
languages and many consciously adopted neologisms were based on them,
including such words as television, automobile and the like.
Purists and nationalists of Germanic languages tried to plug more
native-sounding words -- in Afrikaans, for example, television was
"beeldradio", but eventually "televisie" won out.
In English there was a battle in publishing, which hasn't yet been
foreword preface
handbook manual
and so on.

Please note, however, that Chaucer wrote before the Renaissance began,
but his Middle English had already lost the Old English declination
system and most of the OE conjugation.

Aye, but that had little to do with the incorporating words of Latin
origin, either in addition to or are instead of the older Germanic
words.

Chaucer's vocabulary reflects his knowledge of both
French and Latin. Both necessary for his work at court.

https://www.gla.ac.uk/myglasgow/library/files/special/exhi
bns/chaucer/influences.html

Janet

Janet

[Janet]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Janet

Post by Ed Cryer
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.

Quite aside from Roman occupation, Latin was the
language of the Catholic Church and many legal documents.

I don't think either of those had much influence on English.

Something tells me you haven't read

Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecclesiastical_History_of_th
e_English_People


Janet

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Ed Cryer
It's calculated that about 5.6% of German words are from Latin; whereas
English has well over 60%.

Doesn't sound implausible, but I'd still like to see a source for
that with an explanation of the metholodogy used to arrive at those
numbers.

Post by Ed Cryer
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.

Germany west of the Rhine certainly was. Check out the map of
cities founded by the Romans:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84lteste_St%C3%A4dte_Deutschlands

There's about a millennium between Britain being a Roman province
and Latinate vocabulary flooding the English languages. Sorry,
that idea doesn't hold water.

[Ed Cryer]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Ed Cryer
It's calculated that about 5.6% of German words are from Latin; whereas
English has well over 60%.

Doesn't sound implausible, but I'd still like to see a source for
that with an explanation of the metholodogy used to arrive at those
numbers.

Post by Ed Cryer
I can't help but wonder how to account for that, since, when Latin was
the lingua franca of European education, German scholars used it too.
But Germany had never become a Roman province; unlike Spain, France,
Britain.

Germany west of the Rhine certainly was. Check out the map of
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84lteste_St%C3%A4dte_Deutschlands
There's about a millennium between Britain being a Roman province
and Latinate vocabulary flooding the English languages. Sorry,
that idea doesn't hold water.

Another feature in this question is the coining of new words.
Neologisms in English are usually pulled from Latin or Greek; but not in
German.
Helicopter = Hubschrauber
Aeroplane = Flugzeug
Computer = Rechner

I've always loved the German word "Durchfall". It seems to illustrate
this question somehow. Could it be that we English like to veil things
in an aura of respectability? I.e. we're somewhat pretentious?

Ed

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Ed Cryer
Another feature in this question is the coining of new words.
Neologisms in English are usually pulled from Latin or Greek; but not in
German.

But German is full of neologisms built from Latin and Greek roots.

Post by Ed Cryer
Helicopter = Hubschrauber

And "Helikopter" is a common synonym.

Post by Ed Cryer
Aeroplane = Flugzeug

Right. "Aeroplan"(?), if it ever existed, hasn't caught on.
... It did indeed exist, I found it listed in a Fremdwörterbuch
(see below), marked as obsolescent.

Post by Ed Cryer
Computer = Rechner

But "Computer" is a ubiquitous synonym, and you'll need to perform
a corpus analysis to see which term is actually more common.

There must be a bigger picture here, but I don't think you're going
to find it by looking at a small number of individual words.

Post by Ed Cryer
I've always loved the German word "Durchfall". It seems to illustrate
this question somehow. Could it be that we English like to veil things
in an aura of respectability? I.e. we're somewhat pretentious?

"Diarrhö" exists but is medical jargon. There you have touched on
something. English medical terminology as used by laypeople is
full of Greco-Latinate vocabulary. The equivalent terms exist in
the extended German vocabulary, but they are medical jargon that
is used when doctors talk to each other, not to their patients.
Something like "femur" is a fairly ordinary English word, but "Femur"
came up as an obscure term in a German quiz show. German medical
jargon is more accessible to me than to the average German nonmedical
person simply because I know many terms from English.

More generally, German has the cultural concept of "Fremdword".
That is difficult to render in English. In a linguistic sense it
means "unassimilated loanword", but in everyday usage it shares
connotations with "big word". A Fremdwort is borrowed from a foreign
language or coined from foreign morphemes, typically belongs to an
educated register or jargon, and can't be expected to be understood
by everybody. There are in fact whole dictionaries dedicated to
collecting such vocabulary (Fremdwörterbuch). This distinction
between native and foreign vocabulary doesn't exist in the English
language world.

Is that a reason Latinate vocabulary hasn't penetrated German as
much as English? Or is it an effect?

[Mike Spencer]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Ed Cryer
Computer = Rechner

I'm pretty sure I read something long ago tha used Denkmachine.

Post by Christian Weisgerber
English medical terminology as used by laypeople is
full of Greco-Latinate vocabulary.

Such as coprocephalic and coproagnosia. :-)

Post by Christian Weisgerber
The equivalent terms exist in the extended German vocabulary, but
they are medical jargon that is used when doctors talk to each
other, not to their patients.

Ohrennasenaugenkehlheilkunde

[Silvano]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by Christian Weisgerber
The equivalent terms exist in the extended German vocabulary, but
they are medical jargon that is used when doctors talk to each
other, not to their patients.

Ohrennasenaugenkehlheilkunde

Failed joke. Eye disorders are quite different beasts. And
Hals-Nasen-Ohren-Heilkunde is normal German. I went myself to someone we
call HNO-Arzt, a physician for diseases concerning the neck, throat,
nose and ears.

I'm sure you'll find some examples in real life online, but I found
Ohren-, Nasen- und Kehlkopfheilkunde only in the German Wikipedia. But
then, I'm not such an expert in German. After all, I've been working as
a translator and interpreter in Germany for only 40 years. :-)

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Silvano
Failed joke. Eye disorders are quite different beasts. And
Hals-Nasen-Ohren-Heilkunde is normal German. I went myself to someone we
call HNO-Arzt, a physician for diseases concerning the neck, throat,
nose and ears.

In English that is an ENT specialist. For whatever reason, the neck is
not included.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Silvano
Failed joke. Eye disorders are quite different beasts. And
Hals-Nasen-Ohren-Heilkunde is normal German. I went myself to someone we
call HNO-Arzt, a physician for diseases concerning the neck, throat,
nose and ears.

In English that is an ENT specialist. For whatever reason, the neck is
not included.

In their world, they are otolaryngologists.

They are concerned with the inner workings of the ears, nose, and
throat. The neck is the outer part of the throat.

[Silvano]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Ed Cryer
I've always loved the German word "Durchfall". It seems to illustrate
this question somehow. Could it be that we English like to veil things
in an aura of respectability? I.e. we're somewhat pretentious?

"Diarrhö" exists but is medical jargon. There you have touched on
something. English medical terminology as used by laypeople is
full of Greco-Latinate vocabulary. The equivalent terms exist in
the extended German vocabulary, but they are medical jargon that
is used when doctors talk to each other, not to their patients.
Something like "femur" is a fairly ordinary English word, but "Femur"
came up as an obscure term in a German quiz show. German medical
jargon is more accessible to me than to the average German nonmedical
person simply because I know many terms from English.

Same for me, although for a different reason. I already said to new
doctors (cardiologists, urologists etc.), in German, of course: "You can
talk medical jargon (Arztdeutsch) to me."
Why? I have been living in Germany for many years, but I am Italian, and
we use quite normally in my native language words like "diarrea" and
"femore". Actually, "Durchfall" and "Oberschenkelknochen" are much more
vivid words, but only if you know German really very well.

Post by Christian Weisgerber
More generally, German has the cultural concept of "Fremdword".
That is difficult to render in English. In a linguistic sense it
means "unassimilated loanword", but in everyday usage it shares
connotations with "big word". A Fremdwort is borrowed from a foreign
language or coined from foreign morphemes, typically belongs to an
educated register or jargon, and can't be expected to be understood
by everybody. There are in fact whole dictionaries dedicated to
collecting such vocabulary (Fremdwörterbuch). This distinction
between native and foreign vocabulary doesn't exist in the English
language world.

Some German purists even tried to spread words like Zerknalltreibling
instead of Motor.
Source: <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutscher_Sprachpurismus> I'll
leave the task of finding a literal translation into English to the
German native speakers who read AUE.
Also, several loanwords do become assimilated after some decades.
Telefon is a loanword, but hardly anyone still says Fernsprecher today.

P.S. I read only alt.usage.english.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Silvano

Post by Christian Weisgerber
"Diarrhö" exists but is medical jargon. There you have touched on
something. English medical terminology as used by laypeople is
full of Greco-Latinate vocabulary. The equivalent terms exist in
the extended German vocabulary, but they are medical jargon that is
used when doctors talk to each other, not to their patients.
Something like "femur" is a fairly ordinary English word, but
"Femur" came up as an obscure term in a German quiz show. German
medical jargon is more accessible to me than to the average German
nonmedical person simply because I know many terms from English.

Same for me, although for a different reason. I already said to new
doctors (cardiologists, urologists etc.), in German, of course: "You
can talk medical jargon (Arztdeutsch) to me." Why? I have been living
in Germany for many years, but I am Italian, and we use quite
normally in my native language words like "diarrea" and "femore".
Actually, "Durchfall" and "Oberschenkelknochen" are much more vivid
words, but only if you know German really very well.

My ex-wife, whose native language is French, had to pass an exam in
medical terminology in order to work as a medical interpreter in
Australia. It was easy for her because of her French-speaking
background. The fact that she studied Latin in school (most Australians
don't) also would have helped.

Side comment: medical people often fail to notice that their jargon is
jargon.

Doctor: Have we passed flatus today?
Patient: No, doc, but I've sure been farting a lot.

[Aidan Kehoe]

[...] Side comment: medical people often fail to notice that their jargon is
jargon.
Doctor: Have we passed flatus today?
Patient: No, doc, but I've sure been farting a lot.

That’s a failure on the doctor’s part, something he or she should have done
better. Our professional training exams mark us down if we get this wrong.

It’s routinely not particularly easy if the working language is one’s second
language. One of the reasons I listen to MDR Sachsen’s „Hausarztsprechstunde“
https://www.mdr.de/sachsenradio/programm/ratgeber/hausarztsprechstunde100.html
is for the non-jargon vocabulary. (It’s a radio programme aimed at the general
public.) Like, of course I know that a pneumothorax is a Pneumothorax, but
what’s equivalent to “collapsed lung” when speaking to non-medical patients?

[jerryfriedman]

[alt.language.latin deleted]

On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 6:19:10 +0000, Aidan Kehoe wrote:
..

IOne of the reasons I listen to MDR Sachsen’s
„Hausarztsprechstunde“
https://www.mdr.de/sachsenradio/programm/ratgeber/hausarztsprechstunde100.html
is for the non-jargon vocabulary. (It’s a radio programme aimed at the general
public.) Like, of course I know that a pneumothorax is a Pneumothorax, but
what’s equivalent to “collapsed lung” when speaking to non-medical patients?

Do you practice in a German-speaking country? Or in an English-
speaking country where you see so many German-speaking
patients that you need to know such things?

[Silvano]

Post by jerryfriedman
[alt.language.latin deleted]
..

IOne of the reasons I listen to MDR Sachsen’s
„Hausarztsprechstunde“
https://www.mdr.de/sachsenradio/programm/ratgeber/hausarztsprechstunde100.html
is for the non-jargon vocabulary. (It’s a radio programme aimed at the general
public.) Like, of course I know that a pneumothorax is a Pneumothorax, but
what’s equivalent to “collapsed lung” when speaking to non-medical patients?

Do you practice in a German-speaking country? Or in an English-
speaking country where you see so many German-speaking
patients that you need to know such things?

I don't know what is Aidan's profession, but medical practitioners are
not the only people who may need to know the equivalent to a medical
expression in another language. There are also those strange beasts
called translators. I am one of them.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Silvano

Post by jerryfriedman
[alt.language.latin deleted]
..

IOne of the reasons I listen to MDR Sachsen’s
„Hausarztsprechstunde“
https://www.mdr.de/sachsenradio/programm/ratgeber/hausarztsprechstunde100.html
is for the non-jargon vocabulary. (It’s a radio programme aimed at the general
public.) Like, of course I know that a pneumothorax is a Pneumothorax, but
what’s equivalent to “collapsed lung” when speaking to non-medical patients?

Do you practice in a German-speaking country? Or in an English-
speaking country where you see so many German-speaking
patients that you need to know such things?

I don't know what is Aidan's profession,

(That should be "I don't know what Aiden's profession is." A very
difficult point for many non-native speakers.)

As I recall, he's made it clear here that he's a physician.

Post by Silvano
but medical practitioners are
not the only people who may need to know the equivalent to a medical
expression in another language. There are also those strange beasts
called translators. I am one of them.

Anch'io sono tradutorre. (I had to look that up.) I've published some
of my translations of Antonio Machado's poems, and I'm actually
supposed to get money for some of them. My wages for this project
so far amount to about ten cents an hour, maybe less.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Silvano]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Silvano

Post by jerryfriedman
[alt.language.latin deleted]
..

IOne of the reasons I listen to MDR Sachsen’s
„Hausarztsprechstunde“
https://www.mdr.de/sachsenradio/programm/ratgeber/hausarztsprechstunde100.html
is for the non-jargon vocabulary. (It’s a radio programme aimed at the general
public.) Like, of course I know that a pneumothorax is a Pneumothorax, but
what’s equivalent to “collapsed lung” when speaking to non-medical patients?

Do you practice in a German-speaking country? Or in an English-
speaking country where you see so many German-speaking
patients that you need to know such things?

I don't know what is Aidan's profession,

(That should be "I don't know what Aiden's profession is." A very
difficult point for many non-native speakers.)

Not so difficult, actually. But then, I should try more intensely to
think in English and be more careful before I write to AUE. Both German
and Italian draw me to the wrong order and at present I use English only
here, as a casual listener to BBC World Service and a reader to many
Guardian articles. Let's hope I can still learn something from your
suggestions. The fight against Alzheimer is on.

Post by jerryfriedman
As I recall, he's made it clear here that he's a physician.

Thanks. I had missed that piece of information.

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Silvano
but medical practitioners are
not the only people who may need to know the equivalent to a medical
expression in another language. There are also those strange beasts
called translators. I am one of them.

Anch'io sono tradutorre. (I had to look that up.)

And you looked it up wrong. Correct: Anch'io sono un traduttore. It
would be understandable without "un", though, just like "I'm translator,
too." is understandable. Understandable, but not correct.

Post by jerryfriedman
I've published some
of my translations of Antonio Machado's poems, and I'm actually
supposed to get money for some of them.

Congratulations. I'm serious. Even more serious for your feat of
actually getting money (if you do get it) than for your ability to
translate poems, although it's an extremely difficult job. Germans have
the word "Königsdisziplin" for that, but I know no ready translation in
any other language. You can translate it, of course, but you'll probably
have to explain the concept with several words.

Post by jerryfriedman
My wages for this project
so far amount to about ten cents an hour, maybe less.

ROTFL. I've earned a living as a translator and interpreter for 40
years. You must have been exceptionally slow, not quite unsurprising for
translators of poems. I don't know the current prices that publishing
houses in English-speaking houses pay for literary translations, but the
prices I heard from German and Italian publishing houses make me
comment: beggars might get a higher hourly income. Unless the translator
signs a contract giving them a share of the sales revenue and they
translate all Harry Potter books. Once in ten blue moons. (Yes, I know
the original idiom.)

And before a smarty-pants suggests ChatGPT or something like that: let's
wait and see who is responsible and gets fined or jailed when ChatGPT
botches a translation and legal proceedings involving 100 million pounds
or dollars get lost, or a bridge collapses and people die, as a
consequence of that translation mistake.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Silvano

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Silvano

Post by jerryfriedman
[alt.language.latin deleted]
..

IOne of the reasons I listen to MDR Sachsen’s
„Hausarztsprechstunde“
https://www.mdr.de/sachsenradio/programm/ratgeber/hausarztsprechstunde100.html
is for the non-jargon vocabulary. (It’s a radio programme aimed at the general
public.) Like, of course I know that a pneumothorax is a Pneumothorax, but
what’s equivalent to “collapsed lung” when speaking to non-medical patients?

Do you practice in a German-speaking country? Or in an English-
speaking country where you see so many German-speaking
patients that you need to know such things?

I don't know what is Aidan's profession,

(That should be "I don't know what Aiden's profession is." A very
difficult point for many non-native speakers.)

Not so difficult, actually. But then, I should try more intensely to
think in English and be more careful before I write to AUE. Both German
and Italian draw me to the wrong order and at present I use English only
here, as a casual listener to BBC World Service and a reader to many
Guardian articles. Let's hope I can still learn something from your
suggestions. The fight against Alzheimer is on.

OK, it's "reader of", not "reader to".

Post by Silvano

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Silvano
but medical practitioners are
not the only people who may need to know the equivalent to a medical
expression in another language. There are also those strange beasts
called translators. I am one of them.

Anch'io sono tradutorre. (I had to look that up.)

And you looked it up wrong. Correct: Anch'io sono un traduttore. It
would be understandable without "un", though, just like "I'm translator,
too." is understandable. Understandable, but not correct.

Sorry, I meant to add that I was adapting a quotation from
Michelangelo.

Post by Silvano

Post by jerryfriedman
I've published some
of my translations of Antonio Machado's poems, and I'm actually
supposed to get money for some of them.

Congratulations. I'm serious. Even more serious for your feat of
actually getting money (if you do get it) than for your ability to
translate poems, although it's an extremely difficult job.

Thanks!

Post by Silvano

Post by jerryfriedman
Germans have
the word "Königsdisziplin" for that, but I know no ready translation

in
any other language. You can translate it, of course, but you'll probably
have to explain the concept with several words.

Google Translate suggests "supreme discipline", though I don't
think I'd say that the decathlon is the supreme /discipline/ of
track and field.

Poetry is certainly the hardest kind of translation, but there's
a certain comfort in knowing you can't really succeed anyway.

Post by Silvano

Post by jerryfriedman
My wages for this project
so far amount to about ten cents an hour, maybe less.

ROTFL. I've earned a living as a translator and interpreter for 40
years. You must have been exceptionally slow, not quite unsurprising for
translators of poems.

Overnegation? I think you mean "unsurprising" or "not
entirely surprising".

Anyway, I am slow--it's slow work, and I have a job, and anyway I
get distracted by things like Usenet-- but I've translated much
more than I've published, and the majority of what I've
published or had accepted was in literary magazines that
don't pay, or only pay a copy of the issue you're in.

"There's no money in poetry, but there's no poetry in money,
either."

--Robert Graves, who I'm sure got paid a lot more for his poetry
than I ever will

Post by Silvano
I don't know the current prices that publishing
houses in English-speaking houses pay for literary translations, but the
prices I heard from German and Italian publishing houses make me
comment: beggars might get a higher hourly income. Unless the translator
signs a contract giving them a share of the sales revenue and they
translate all Harry Potter books. Once in ten blue moons. (Yes, I know
the original idiom.)

I'm not at the point of going to publishing houses yet,
though maybe I should be thinking about it. I suspect the
people who do the prestigious translations are getting
subsidized somehow, either by grants or by the publishers
of, say, university presses.

Post by Silvano
And before a smarty-pants suggests ChatGPT or something like that: let's
wait and see who is responsible and gets fined or jailed when ChatGPT
botches a translation and legal proceedings involving 100 million pounds
or dollars get lost, or a bridge collapses and people die, as a
consequence of that translation mistake.

I haven't dared to see what ChatGPT and its friends would do
with the poems I've translated. However, no one would be
risking a lawsuit.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Silvano
I don't know what is Aidan's profession, but medical practitioners
are not the only people who may need to know the equivalent to a
medical expression in another language. There are also those strange
beasts called translators. I am one of them.

My ex-wife's work as a medical interpreter produced a wealth of stories
showing that lots of people understand very little about language.
Here's an example that actually happened. I've probably changed the
actual words, but I've retained the essence of what happened.

A hospital nurse phoned the interpreter service.

"Could you send an interpreter, please? We have a patient who can't
understand English."
"OK. What language?"
"Oh. I thought the interpreters did all languages."
"No, we have different people for different languages."
"Well, I think he speaks African."

That reminds me of an incident in an earlier job of hers, when she
worked in a psychiatric hospital. A small town north of Newcastle had
had no doctor for a long time, but Australia has a policy of getting
immigrant doctors out to rural areas, so they finally got someone. That
doctor sent one of his patients down to the psych hospital for
assessment. The clinical notes said that he was obsessed with attacking
birds.

When interviewed, one of the first things he said was
"Stone the crows, I don't know why they sent me here."

[Silvano]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Silvano
I don't know what is Aidan's profession, but medical practitioners
are not the only people who may need to know the equivalent to a
medical expression in another language. There are also those strange
beasts called translators. I am one of them.

My ex-wife's work as a medical interpreter produced a wealth of stories
showing that lots of people understand very little about language.
Here's an example that actually happened. I've probably changed the
actual words, but I've retained the essence of what happened.
A hospital nurse phoned the interpreter service.
"Could you send an interpreter, please? We have a patient who can't
understand English."
"OK. What language?"
"Oh. I thought the interpreters did all languages."
"No, we have different people for different languages."
"Well, I think he speaks African."
That reminds me of an incident in an earlier job of hers, when she
worked in a psychiatric hospital. A small town north of Newcastle had
had no doctor for a long time, but Australia has a policy of getting
immigrant doctors out to rural areas, so they finally got someone. That
doctor sent one of his patients down to the psych hospital for
assessment. The clinical notes said that he was obsessed with attacking
birds.
When interviewed, one of the first things he said was
"Stone the crows, I don't know why they sent me here."

I assume that "stone the crows" is a common idiom in that part of Australia.
1) What does it mean?
2) Do native speakers of other varieties of English know and use that idiom?

By the way, congratulations to Australia. Here in Germany we are very
slowly starting to understand that interpreters should be provided to
patients and hospital cleaners or the patient's minor children are
definitely not the best solution, especially when talking e.g. about
sexual diseases or a life-threatening cancer.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Silvano

Post by Peter Moylan
That reminds me of an incident in an earlier job of hers, when she
worked in a psychiatric hospital. A small town north of Newcastle
had had no doctor for a long time, but Australia has a policy of
getting immigrant doctors out to rural areas, so they finally got
someone. That doctor sent one of his patients down to the psych
hospital for assessment. The clinical notes said that he was
obsessed with attacking birds.
When interviewed, one of the first things he said was "Stone the
crows, I don't know why they sent me here."

I assume that "stone the crows" is a common idiom in that part of
Australia. 1) What does it mean? 2) Do native speakers of other
varieties of English know and use that idiom?

Good questions. It's an Australian expression, and more specifically
from the language of rural areas rather than the cities. I believe it's
understood in England, although the English clearly view it as an
Australianism. I have no idea whether it is also known in the rest of
GB&Ireland. It is probably not understood in North America, except among
those exposed to a lot of Australian literature.

Meaning: it's a general expression of surprise or incredulity. An
approximate equivalent is "Bloody Hell".

Etymology: nobody is sure. It could derive from times when farmers hired
people to throw stones at crows who were damaging the crops, but
personally I can't see how that would evolve into an expression of
surprise. I suspect that it's just a phrase that someone made up, and
adopted by others who found it colourful.

Post by Silvano
By the way, congratulations to Australia. Here in Germany we are very
slowly starting to understand that interpreters should be provided to
patients and hospital cleaners or the patient's minor children are
definitely not the best solution, especially when talking e.g. about
sexual diseases or a life-threatening cancer.

Australia is a nation of immigrants. Initially, mostly from the British
Isles, but with some exceptions. (For example, I gather that a dialect
of German survived in the South Australian wine region long after it had
died out in Germany.) In the mid-20th century, though, there was massive
migration from many European countries.. As a student in the 1960s I
lived in Melbourne, which for some reason was the major entry point for
immigrants, and it fascinated me to listen to the different languages
being spoken as I walked through the city. I used to try to guess which
language was being spoken. I was probably right most of the time,
because the dominant languages (Italian, Greek, Dutch, Serbo-Croat,
Polish, etc.) had distinctive sounds that distinguished them from one
another.

As a result, it's normal that government pamphlets are issued in, often,
as many as 20 languages. Those languages are chosen on the basis of
statistics of how many Australian residents speak which language.
Initially these were mostly European languages. (Maltese is the main
exception I remember.) These days the list is rather different. It
starts with English, Mandarin, Arabic, Vietnamese, Cantonese, Punjabi,
Greek, Italian, Hindi, ... .

I see from googling that the explicit introduction of medical
interpreters in NSW started in 1976 (later than I would have guessed).
Initially in Sydney, but it spread to other cities. In the bigger cities
like Newcastle there's a central interpreter service, that can be
contacted by hospitals, medical practices, etc., and that has a "pool"
of available interpreters that can be called in as needed. Elsewhere,
the main interpreter support is by telephone.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Silvano

Post by Peter Moylan
That reminds me of an incident in an earlier job of hers, when she
worked in a psychiatric hospital. A small town north of Newcastle
had had no doctor for a long time, but Australia has a policy of
getting immigrant doctors out to rural areas, so they finally got
someone. That doctor sent one of his patients down to the psych
hospital for assessment. The clinical notes said that he was
obsessed with attacking birds.
When interviewed, one of the first things he said was "Stone the
crows, I don't know why they sent me here."

I assume that "stone the crows" is a common idiom in that part of
Australia. 1) What does it mean? 2) Do native speakers of other
varieties of English know and use that idiom?

Good questions. It's an Australian expression, and more specifically
from the language of rural areas rather than the cities. I believe it's
understood in England, although the English clearly view it as an
Australianism. I have no idea whether it is also known in the rest of
GB&Ireland. It is probably not understood in North America, except among
those exposed to a lot of Australian literature.
Meaning: it's a general expression of surprise or incredulity. An
approximate equivalent is "Bloody Hell".
Etymology: nobody is sure. It could derive from times when farmers hired
people to throw stones at crows who were damaging the crops, but
personally I can't see how that would evolve into an expression of
surprise. I suspect that it's just a phrase that someone made up, and
adopted by others who found it colourful.

It's also the name of a decor/housewares retailer in England (3 shops
in Derbyshire, Warwickshire, Essex):

<https://www.stonethecrowsretail.co.uk/>

[Joy Beeson]

Post by Peter Moylan
As a result, it's normal that government pamphlets are issued in, often,
as many as 20 languages. Those languages are chosen on the basis of
statistics of how many Australian residents speak which language.

Yesterday I opened a packet of Tegaderm. At first glance I thought
the envelope had instructions for use -- it turned out that the
identity of the product is written in thirty-three different
languages.

To my surprise, every last language uses an alphabet, all but two
variations on latin or greek.

I was also surprised that in addition to cm, the dimensions are given
in IN/PO. I am frequently and loudly informed that the U.S.A. is the
only place sufficiently benighted to have a word for 2.54 cm.

[charles]

Post by Joy Beeson

Post by Peter Moylan
As a result, it's normal that government pamphlets are issued in, often,
as many as 20 languages. Those languages are chosen on the basis of
statistics of how many Australian residents speak which language.

Yesterday I opened a packet of Tegaderm. At first glance I thought
the envelope had instructions for use -- it turned out that the
identity of the product is written in thirty-three different
languages.
To my surprise, every last language uses an alphabet, all but two
variations on latin or greek.
I was also surprised that in addition to cm, the dimensions are given
in IN/PO. I am frequently and loudly informed that the U.S.A. is the
only place sufficiently benighted to have a word for 2.54 cm.

It's "pouce" in French. they say "dix-neuf pouces" when defining the size
of an international equipment rack.

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 17 Sep 2024 08:44:27 +0200, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Peter Moylan
That reminds me of an incident in an earlier job of hers, when she
worked in a psychiatric hospital. A small town north of Newcastle had
had no doctor for a long time, but Australia has a policy of getting
immigrant doctors out to rural areas, so they finally got someone. That
doctor sent one of his patients down to the psych hospital for
assessment. The clinical notes said that he was obsessed with attacking
birds.
When interviewed, one of the first things he said was
"Stone the crows, I don't know why they sent me here."

I assume that "stone the crows" is a common idiom in that part of Australia.
1) What does it mean?
2) Do native speakers of other varieties of English know and use that idiom?

Known to me in South Africa, but I thought it was of Cockney origin
(and when I first went to the UK I thought the place was full of
Australians talking Strine).

Post by Silvano
By the way, congratulations to Australia. Here in Germany we are very
slowly starting to understand that interpreters should be provided to
patients and hospital cleaners or the patient's minor children are
definitely not the best solution, especially when talking e.g. about
sexual diseases or a life-threatening cancer.

[Janet]

Post by Silvano

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Silvano
I don't know what is Aidan's profession, but medical practitioners
are not the only people who may need to know the equivalent to a
medical expression in another language. There are also those strange
beasts called translators. I am one of them.

My ex-wife's work as a medical interpreter produced a wealth of stories
showing that lots of people understand very little about language.
Here's an example that actually happened. I've probably changed the
actual words, but I've retained the essence of what happened.
A hospital nurse phoned the interpreter service.
"Could you send an interpreter, please? We have a patient who can't
understand English."
"OK. What language?"
"Oh. I thought the interpreters did all languages."
"No, we have different people for different languages."
"Well, I think he speaks African."
That reminds me of an incident in an earlier job of hers, when she
worked in a psychiatric hospital. A small town north of Newcastle had
had no doctor for a long time, but Australia has a policy of getting
immigrant doctors out to rural areas, so they finally got someone. That
doctor sent one of his patients down to the psych hospital for
assessment. The clinical notes said that he was obsessed with attacking
birds.
When interviewed, one of the first things he said was
"Stone the crows, I don't know why they sent me here."

I assume that "stone the crows" is a common idiom in that part of Australia.
1) What does it mean?

Expresses surprise or disbelief.

Post by Silvano
2) Do native speakers of other varieties of English know and use that idiom?

Yes. It's a very common saying.

Janet

[Steve Hayes]

Post by jerryfriedman
[alt.language.latin deleted]
..

IOne of the reasons I listen to MDR Sachsen’s
„Hausarztsprechstunde“
https://www.mdr.de/sachsenradio/programm/ratgeber/hausarztsprechstunde100.html
is for the non-jargon vocabulary. (It’s a radio programme aimed at the general
public.) Like, of course I know that a pneumothorax is a Pneumothorax, but
what’s equivalent to “collapsed lung” when speaking to non-medical patients?

Do you practice in a German-speaking country? Or in an English-
speaking country where you see so many German-speaking
patients that you need to know such things?

I have an article by Michael Frayn, called "Inside the Krankenhaus" in
which he goes on about how screamingly funny German medical
terminology sounds to English speakers. Actually he's taking the
mickey out of the Daily Mirror's chauvinism, in a series of articles
written by Auberon Waugh and his wife.

'The Germans are the latest race to come under their microscope. "Our
idea of the country," writes Mr Waugh, had been formed by seeing war
films in which all Germans shout 'Ach so! Gott in Himmel!!'" He was
agreeably surprised to find that this was not the case in the Federal
Republic today, and almost as surprised by the sheer variety of the
German race. "Germans come in all sizes," he reports, "fat, thin,
tall, short, dark, fair. Some are cheerful, some gloomy."

_Ach so!_, one feels like gasping. Thin as well as fat? Short as well
as tall? Some cheerful, some gloomy? Well, dash it all! Gott, as one
might say, in Himmel!

So the old prejudices and misconceptions are at last exposed. There's
only one thing in which Mr Waugh thinks the Germans might be
deficient, and that's a sense of the ridiculous -- a grave flaw, of
course, which sets them apart from visiting British journalists and
others. Mr Waugh thinks their language might be in some way to blame.

"{It must be very difficult to keep a straight face," he writes, "if,
when you go to visit a relative in hospital, you have to ask for the
Krankenhaus, or, when you want the way out, if you have to ask for the
Ausfahrt."

I suppose it must. I'd never thought of it that way before. I suppose
life must be just one long struggle to keep themselves from bursting
out laughing at their own language.

It would explain a lot, of course. That's what the object of all that
iron Prussian discipline must have been. That's what all those
duelling scars were for -- to camouflage the dirty grins on the faces
of people inquiring about the Ausfahrt.

Now that the old traditional codes of discipline have gone it's
terrible. The approach to every Ausfahrt, Einfahrt and Krankenhaus in
the Federal Republic is jammed with people falling about and holding
their sides. But that's nothing to what it's like _inside_ the
Krankenhaus. Inside it sounds like 14 different studio audiences
trying to earn their free tickets simultaneously, as the patients try
to describe their various comic-sounding symptoms to the staff. Here's
a new admission scarcely able to speak for giggles as he tells the
doctor he has a pain in his elbow.

"A Schmertz in your Ellengoben?" repeats the doctor without any sign
of amusement -- he's heard the joke before, of course. "Which
Ellenbogen?"

"Both Ellenbogens," replies the patient, trying to pull himself
together. "I also get agonising twinges which run up and down my leg
from my... from my..."

But it's no good -- he's off again. Unable to get the words out for
laughing, he points silently from his thigh to his ankle.

"From your Schenkel to your Knöchel?" says the doctor, the corner of
his mouth twitching very lightly in spite of himself. The patient nods
helplessly.

"And sometimes," he gasps, "and sometimes... all the way down my..."

He closes his eyes and vibrates silently, shaking his head from time
to time to show that speech is beyond him.

"Come on," says the doctor, frankly grinning himself now. "Get it
out."

"All the way down my... my Wirb... my Wirbel... "'

(Wirbelshäule -- backbone aka spine)

...and so on, through Verstopfung, Kniescheibenentzüngung (Housemaid's
Knee), Windpocken and a pain in the Nasenflügel.

[Madhu]

Post by Steve Hayes
I have an article by Michael Frayn, called "Inside the Krankenhaus" in
which he goes on about how screamingly funny German medical
terminology sounds to English speakers. Actually he's taking the
mickey out of the Daily Mirror's chauvinism, in a series of articles
written by Auberon Waugh and his wife.

Thanks for that text, it is also seems to be available at:

https://archive.clivejames.com/essays/inside-the-krankenhaus.htm

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Madhu

Post by Steve Hayes
I have an article by Michael Frayn, called "Inside the Krankenhaus" in
which he goes on about how screamingly funny German medical
terminology sounds to English speakers. Actually he's taking the
mickey out of the Daily Mirror's chauvinism, in a series of articles
written by Auberon Waugh and his wife.

https://archive.clivejames.com/essays/inside-the-krankenhaus.htm

I'm glad that has been preserved, as, it appears, have some of his
other pieces. I originally read it in "The Observer", for which he
wrote a weekly column, some of which were collected in "At Bay in Gear
Street".

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Aidan Kehoe
One of the reasons I listen to MDR Sachsen’s „Hausarztsprechstunde“
https://www.mdr.de/sachsenradio/programm/ratgeber/hausarztsprechstunde100.html
is for the non-jargon vocabulary. (It’s a radio programme aimed at the
general public.) Like, of course I know that a pneumothorax is a
Pneumothorax, but what’s equivalent to “collapsed lung” when speaking to
non-medical patients?

Do you practice in a German-speaking country? Or in an English-
speaking country where you see so many German-speaking
patients that you need to know such things?

I practice in an English-speaking country in an area that gets plenty of German
tourists. But my main motivation is that German is a language I value and I
want to get better at it.