Maladroit and gauche

[occam]

'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.

I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.

In English, both have connotations of clumsy / awkward / lacking in
refinement. The other thing the two words share is a discrimination of
the left (hand, foot) in contrast to the right.

How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.

(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.
In English, both have connotations of clumsy / awkward / lacking in
refinement. The other thing the two words share is a discrimination of
the left (hand, foot) in contrast to the right.
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.

Their sinister machinations know no bounds.

Post by occam
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

[occam]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.
In English, both have connotations of clumsy / awkward / lacking in
refinement. The other thing the two words share is a discrimination of
the left (hand, foot) in contrast to the right.
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.

Their sinister machinations know no bounds.

(I see what you did there. )

Anecdote:
When I was working in Barcelona for a period, I was struck by the
left-handed turnstiles in the metro in the University area (Palau Reial,
Zona Universitaria). By this I mean you had to present your ticket with
your left hand to the turnstile/barrier in order to proceed. More than
once, I had to back up of my lane, and go through the (unlocked)
turnstile on my right.

After a while I asked one of my colleagues if this had been an
installation error? He said 'no', it was a subversive protest against
General Franco during his reign in Spain. Franco had apparently banned
left-handed writing in schools, as his whimsy as a right-wing dictator.
The designers of the metro station at the time had installed the
barriers as a form of statement of protest. (The stations were completed
in 1975, so I am not sure if this was done before or after Franco had
been overthrown?)

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by occam
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

[Silvano]

Post by occam
(The stations were completed
in 1975, so I am not sure if this was done before or after Franco had
been overthrown?)

Franco was never overthrown. He died a natural death in November 1975.
The plans to build those stations must have been approved when he was
still alive and governing.

[Janet]

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.

and so is naive.

Post by occam
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.

En un clin d'œil, one/on translated Eng. naive/ Fr. naif
as

"nothing much between the ears".

Just a gut feeling, I might not have got to the bottom
of it. Have I got a leg to stand on?



Janet.

[wugi]

Post by Janet

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.

and so is naive.

Post by occam
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.

En un clin d'œil, one/on translated Eng. naive/ Fr. naif
as
"nothing much between the ears".
Just a gut feeling, I might not have got to the bottom
of it. Have I got a leg to stand on?

Blame the natives.

[Hibou]

[...] How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

'Friday of Color'? (Never a British thing, hence the spelling.)

[occam]

Post by Hibou

[...] How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

'Friday of Color'? (Never a British thing, hence the spelling.)

The 'black' in 'Black Friday' is a fairly recent term. Like most naff
American marketing ideas, it stinks of hypocrisy.

Black Monday on the other had was a real market crash on the world
stock markets. It's more in the spirit of 'black' as sinister or evil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_(1987)

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by occam

Post by Hibou

[...] How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

'Friday of Color'? (Never a British thing, hence the spelling.)

The 'black' in 'Black Friday' is a fairly recent term. Like most naff
American marketing ideas, it stinks of hypocrisy.

My understanding (and I am open to correction) was that this was the day that
put retailers into the black (profit) rather than the red (loss) for the year.
No melanin directly involved.

Post by occam
Black Monday on the other had was a real market crash on the world
stock markets. It's more in the spirit of 'black' as sinister or evil.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_(1987)

[occam]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by occam

Post by Hibou

[...] How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

'Friday of Color'? (Never a British thing, hence the spelling.)

The 'black' in 'Black Friday' is a fairly recent term. Like most naff
American marketing ideas, it stinks of hypocrisy.

My understanding (and I am open to correction) was that this was the day that
put retailers into the black (profit) rather than the red (loss) for the year.
No melanin directly involved.

Was? It is still going on, and will continue to do so until Christmas,
for all I care. It is a recent made-up marketing gimmick to keep you
spending.

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by occam
Black Monday on the other had was a real market crash on the world
stock markets. It's more in the spirit of 'black' as sinister or evil.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_(1987)

"Black Monday (also known as Black Tuesday in some parts of the world
due to time zone differences) was the global, severe and largely
unexpected[1] stock market crash on Monday, October 19, 1987. Worldwide
losses were estimated at US$1.71 trillion.[2] The severity of the crash
sparked fears of extended economic instability[3] or even a reprise of
the Great Depression.[4]"

How does that tally with your understanding further up?

[Snidely]

Post by occam

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by occam

Post by Hibou

[...] How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian
values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

'Friday of Color'? (Never a British thing, hence the spelling.)

The 'black' in 'Black Friday' is a fairly recent term. Like most naff
American marketing ideas, it stinks of hypocrisy.

My understanding (and I am open to correction) was that this was the day
that put retailers into the black (profit) rather than the red (loss) for
the year. No melanin directly involved.

Was? It is still going on, and will continue to do so until Christmas,
for all I care. It is a recent made-up marketing gimmick to keep you
spending.

Of course it is, but the folk etymology of the name refers to the
specific point in the calendar where the path crossed the equator. Er,
where the income exceeded expenses.

I think we've also discussed in this forum another etymology, where it
refers to the day of a stampede at a sale event that became
overwhelming.

We're pretty much past Black Friday sales here, with Cyber Monday
coming up, but then it's all Christmas Sales for the rest of the month.

Post by occam

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by occam
Black Monday on the other had was a real market crash on the world
stock markets. It's more in the spirit of 'black' as sinister or evil.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_(1987)

"Black Monday (also known as Black Tuesday in some parts of the world
due to time zone differences) was the global, severe and largely
unexpected[1] stock market crash on Monday, October 19, 1987. Worldwide
losses were estimated at US$1.71 trillion.[2] The severity of the crash
sparked fears of extended economic instability[3] or even a reprise of
the Great Depression.[4]"
How does that tally with your understanding further up?

Different occasion. Hardly ever comes up these days, AFIACT, and 2008
is becoming a faded memory.

/dps

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Hibou

[...] How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

'Friday of Color'? (Never a British thing, hence the spelling.)

Afro-American Friday

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Hibou

[...] How long before the PC brigade try and impose some
egalitarian values on the use of English and try and ban
expressions using 'left' or 'right' as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white',
as racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

'Friday of Color'? (Never a British thing, hence the spelling.)

I've mentioned this before, I think. When I was in Berkeley (1979-1980)
I noticed some bins in a corridor of one of the university buildings for
the disposal of paper. They were labelled WHITE PAPER and PAPER OF COLOR.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by occam
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.

That is a lost cause. It has been tried with other words with the same
meaning. "Sinister" is Latin for "left".

Post by occam
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by occam
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.

That is a lost cause. It has been tried with other words with the same
meaning. "Sinister" is Latin for "left".

..

If all of those are eliminated, there will be nothing
left.

--
Jerry Friedman

--

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by occam
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.

That is a lost cause. It has been tried with other words with the same
meaning. "Sinister" is Latin for "left".

..
If all of those are eliminated, there will be nothing
left.

Right.

[wugi]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by occam
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.

That is a lost cause. It has been tried with other words with the same
meaning. "Sinister" is Latin for "left".

..
If all of those are eliminated, there will be nothing
left.

Leave's conjugation ought to be revisited, I belieave.
Direct, correct etc are also suspect.

[Phil]

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.
In English, both have connotations of clumsy / awkward / lacking in
refinement. The other thing the two words share is a discrimination of
the left (hand, foot) in contrast to the right.
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

I've encountered objections to the term 'cackhanded' on the grounds
that it refers to left-handedness (although the dictionaries seem to
differ on this). I do have some sympathy with that; my mother was
left-handed, but was forced as a child to hold a pen or a knife in the
right hand as the opposite was "wrong".

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Phil

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.
In English, both have connotations of clumsy / awkward / lacking in
refinement. The other thing the two words share is a discrimination of
the left (hand, foot) in contrast to the right.
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

I've encountered objections to the term 'cackhanded' on the grounds
that it refers to left-handedness (although the dictionaries seem to
differ on this). I do have some sympathy with that; my mother was
left-handed, but was forced as a child to hold a pen or a knife in the
right hand as the opposite was "wrong".

My mother was also left-handed, but having unusually modern parents
(she knew where babies came from when she was a teenager) she was
never, I think, forced to write with her right hand.

[Phil]

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.
In English, both have connotations of clumsy / awkward / lacking in
refinement.  The other thing the two words share is a discrimination of
the left (hand, foot) in contrast to the right.
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

I've encountered objections to the term 'cackhanded'  on the grounds
that it refers to left-handedness (although the dictionaries seem to
differ on this). I do have some sympathy with that; my mother was
left-handed, but was forced as a child to hold a pen or a knife in the
right hand as the opposite was "wrong".

My mother was also left-handed, but having unusually modern parents (she
knew where babies came from when she was a teenager) she was never, I
think, forced to write with her right hand.

It was the schools who enforced right-handedness as the only correct
way. That and punishing her for talking to a boy (her cousin) whilst in
school uniform.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My mother was also left-handed, but having unusually modern parents
(she knew where babies came from when she was a teenager) she was
never, I think, forced to write with her right hand.

Two of my siblings were lefthanded. The school didn't ask about the
parents' preferences. They just forced the pupils to use the right hand.
My lefthanded brother had a teribble handwriting (he is now dead). My
lefthanded sister writes okay.

Come to think of it: There was a lefthanded girl in my first class (we
were split up later). She was allowed to use her left hand, and I
remember because the teacher talked about her problem with smudging the
ink writing.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My mother was also left-handed, but having unusually modern parents
(she knew where babies came from when she was a teenager) she was
never, I think, forced to write with her right hand.

Two of my siblings were lefthanded. The school didn't ask about the
parents' preferences. They just forced the pupils to use the right hand.
My lefthanded brother had a teribble handwriting (he is now dead). My
lefthanded sister writes okay.
Come to think of it: There was a lefthanded girl in my first class (we
were split up later). She was allowed to use her left hand, and I
remember because the teacher talked about her problem with smudging the
ink writing.

I'm left-handed for writing. Never had any problem with ink smudging.
But I have always kept my hand below the line, not curved over it.
My father, also left-handed, used a pen in his right hand (school
trained) but a pencil in his left hand. He could write different things
with different hands at the same time.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 30 Nov 2024 21:26:40 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My mother was also left-handed, but having unusually modern parents
(she knew where babies came from when she was a teenager) she was
never, I think, forced to write with her right hand.

Two of my siblings were lefthanded. The school didn't ask about the
parents' preferences. They just forced the pupils to use the right hand.
My lefthanded brother had a teribble handwriting (he is now dead). My
lefthanded sister writes okay.

When I attended a Catholic grade school, the nuns strongly objected to
my left-handed over-the-top writing. After being whacked numerous
times with a steel-edged ruler, I started writing hand-under-writing
with my elbow tucked in.

I still write hand-under-writing, but my cursive is illegible. Now I
print everything, and two years of mechanical drawing and two years of
architectural drawing in high school have resulted in a very neat
printing style.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Come to think of it: There was a lefthanded girl in my first class (we
were split up later). She was allowed to use her left hand, and I
remember because the teacher talked about her problem with smudging the
ink writing.

In my grade school years, we used stick pens dipped in an inkwell on
the desk. Writing over-the-top of the words did not smudge. It
totally obliterated the writing.

Two of my grandsons are left-handed, but neither have mentioned that
any teacher commented on this.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Tony Cooper
In my grade school years, we used stick pens dipped in an inkwell on
the desk.

Ditto.

Post by Tony Cooper
Two of my grandsons are left-handed, but neither have mentioned that
any teacher commented on this.

I think that Danish teachers today allow the pupils to write with
whichever hand they prefer - except that the pupils don't learn to write
properly any more which is a great shame. They use computers instead.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My mother was also left-handed, but having unusually modern parents
(she knew where babies came from when she was a teenager) she was
never, I think, forced to write with her right hand.

Two of my siblings were lefthanded. The school didn't ask about the
parents' preferences. They just forced the pupils to use the right hand.
My lefthanded brother had a teribble handwriting (he is now dead). My
lefthanded sister writes okay.
Come to think of it: There was a lefthanded girl in my first class (we
were split up later). She was allowed to use her left hand, and I
remember because the teacher talked about her problem with smudging the
ink writing.

When I was in Rehovoth ten or so years ago someone came into the office
where I was talking with a colleague. I noticed that he was left-handed
(something that I usually notice), and asked him if being left-handed
was an advantage for writing Hebrew. He said he hadn't thought about it
much, but he thought that writing Hebrew probably was easier for
left-handed people.

[occam]

<snip>

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
When I was in Rehovoth ten or so years ago someone came into the office
where I was talking with a colleague. I noticed that he was left-handed
(something that I usually notice), and asked him if being left-handed
was an advantage for writing Hebrew. He said he hadn't thought about it
much, but he thought that writing Hebrew probably was easier for left-
handed people.

What would have been more interesting to find out is if Rabbis smacked
the hand of their students with the sharp end of a steel ruler if they
wrote with their right hand ?

'The smudging of ink' reasoning I have heard before. It sort of makes
sense. The political reasoning ("right is better than left") was, on
the other hand, a rule punishable by law in Spain (and Greece, in the
period of the military Junta). Two different reasons, with two very
different motives.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by occam
'The smudging of ink' reasoning I have heard before. It sort of makes
sense.

Yes, but it is easily avoided. Tony found one way. I read about another
and recommended it to my pupils. Turn the paper 90 degrees to the right
and write upside down (in that order).

There are many writing tools today where smudging is a small or
non-existing problem.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by occam
'The smudging of ink' reasoning I have heard before. It sort of makes
sense.

Yes, but it is easily avoided. Tony found one way. I read about another
and recommended it to my pupils. Turn the paper 90 degrees to the right
and write upside down (in that order).

Never heard that one. Is "90° right" clockwise or anticlockwise (counter
clockwise)?

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
There are many writing tools today where smudging is a small or
non-existing problem.

Pencil?

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Yes, but it is easily avoided. Tony found one way. I read about another
and recommended it to my pupils. Turn the paper 90 degrees to the right
and write upside down (in that order).

Never heard that one. Is "90° right" clockwise or anticlockwise (counter
clockwise)?

Clockwise.

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
There are many writing tools today where smudging is a small or
non-existing problem.

Pencil?

Sure, but I was thinking of ink(ish) tools.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 13:03:50 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by occam
'The smudging of ink' reasoning I have heard before. It sort of makes
sense.

Yes, but it is easily avoided. Tony found one way. I read about another
and recommended it to my pupils. Turn the paper 90 degrees to the right
and write upside down (in that order).
There are many writing tools today where smudging is a small or
non-existing problem.

The "smudging" was because the hand moved over the still-wet ink. The
ink used in modern ballpoint pens dries immediately. Over-the-top
writers don't smudge now.

[Snidely]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 13:03:50 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by occam
'The smudging of ink' reasoning I have heard before. It sort of makes
sense.

Yes, but it is easily avoided. Tony found one way. I read about another
and recommended it to my pupils. Turn the paper 90 degrees to the right
and write upside down (in that order).
There are many writing tools today where smudging is a small or
non-existing problem.

The "smudging" was because the hand moved over the still-wet ink. The
ink used in modern ballpoint pens dries immediately. Over-the-top
writers don't smudge now.

Ah. Some of the inks dry too fast for smudging, but there's still many
where even a right-hander has smudging problems. However, the Lindy
stickpen seems to be gone; it will not be mourned, despite the seal on
the penclip.

/dps

[Silvano]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My mother was also left-handed, but having unusually modern parents
(she knew where babies came from when she was a teenager) she was
never, I think, forced to write with her right hand.

Two of my siblings were lefthanded. The school didn't ask about the
parents' preferences. They just forced the pupils to use the right hand.
My lefthanded brother had a teribble handwriting (he is now dead). My
lefthanded sister writes okay.

I was extremely lucky, if we consider that it happened 60 years ago. My
mother told me several years later that she had talked to my first-class
teacher about my left-handedness. The teacher's immortal answer, even
more remarkable when we know that she was approaching pension age
herself: "He can write with his feet, if he wants to. The main thing is
that he can write."

I guess she was extremely happy that there were only 37 other children
in her class she had to teach how to read and write and also how to
speak standard Italian, perhaps with a slight regional accent like her
own, in two years instead of the Sicilian, Apulian, Friulian, Neapolitan
and several other regional variants we had learned from our parents. At
least so much that we could understand each other.

If you don't get it, imagine a first-grade class with Peter Moylan,
Steve Hayes, Janet, Athel, Tony Cooper, Jerry Friedman and a few others
speaking as they did when they were 6 years old. Probably still much
better than the situation 25 years ago in the elementary school I had
attended as a child when I saw the exam results after fifth class. Only
about 25% Italian surnames in Milan. Yet I guess they all spoke Italian
with a slight Lombard accent.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Come to think of it: There was a lefthanded girl in my first class (we
were split up later). She was allowed to use her left hand, and I
remember because the teacher talked about her problem with smudging the
ink writing.

I still remember the problem. We had to wear black school gowns, which I
still hate after all this time, but they were very practical because the
inkwell was on the right side and what I wrote in first class was mostly
blue. But then, whatever I wrote on the chalkboard was much better than
what everyone else wrote, because I had learned to write before I went
to school. Ink pens since class 2 were a huge improvement.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 20:55:55 +0100, Silvano

Post by Silvano
I still remember the problem. We had to wear black school gowns, which I
still hate after all this time, but they were very practical because the
inkwell was on the right side and what I wrote in first class was mostly
blue. But then, whatever I wrote on the chalkboard was much better than
what everyone else wrote, because I had learned to write before I went
to school. Ink pens since class 2 were a huge improvement.

I was a rather ordinary child in grade school. I was neither the
smartest the dullest, the tallest the shortest, the fattest the
skinniest, the handsomest the ugliest or the most or least athletic.

The one honor accorded to me was that for one semester I was the
"Inkwell Monitor". It was my duty to each morning fill the inkwells
on each desk from the large bottle of "Quink" kept at the teacher's
desk. It was not mentioned in dispatches that no ink was ever spilled
in the pouring that semester, but I have not added that to my
curriculum vitae.

"Quink" is Parker Pen's brand name ink, and is still sold.

[Janet]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 20:55:55 +0100, Silvano

Post by Silvano
I still remember the problem. We had to wear black school gowns, which I
still hate after all this time, but they were very practical because the
inkwell was on the right side and what I wrote in first class was mostly
blue. But then, whatever I wrote on the chalkboard was much better than
what everyone else wrote, because I had learned to write before I went
to school. Ink pens since class 2 were a huge improvement.

I was a rather ordinary child in grade school. I was neither the
smartest the dullest, the tallest the shortest, the fattest the
skinniest, the handsomest the ugliest or the most or

least athletic.

Post by Tony Cooper
The one honor accorded to me was that for one semester I was the
"Inkwell Monitor". It was my duty to each morning fill the inkwells
on each desk from the large bottle of "Quink" kept at the teacher's
desk. It was not mentioned in dispatches that no ink was ever spilled
in the pouring that semester, but I have not added that to my
curriculum vitae.
"Quink" is Parker Pen's brand name ink, and is still sold.

Our school provided a dip pen and ink mixed from powder
and water by the teacher. It smelled disgusting.

Janet

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Janet
Our school provided a dip pen and ink mixed from powder
and water by the teacher. It smelled disgusting.

As it was in a school I went to.

And the only disadvantage I felt in being left-handed in class was
that the inkwells were always on the far right of the desk. It would
surely have been no problem for the desk-makers to have put the
inkwells in the middle, so that they would be equally easy to reach
with either hand.

One of the big problems I did have with being left-handed was when my
parents sent me to have boxing lessons at the age of 8. The instructor
taught me to box right-handed, though I wasn't aware of it at the
time, and I was never any good at it. Also, in playing cricket and
softball I was taught to bat righthanded, and in hockey it was
compulsory.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Tony Cooper
"Quink" is Parker Pen's brand name ink, and is still sold.

Quink is what we had in school in bootles, and Quink was what we had in
our home in small bottles. I even knew not to call it "kwink" because I
knew the word "ink".

[Janet]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
"Quink" is Parker Pen's brand name ink, and is still sold.

Quink is what we had in school in bootles, and Quink was what we had in
our home in small bottles. I even knew not to call it "kwink" because I
knew the word "ink".

But but but.. I've always called it Kwink.



Janet

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Janet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
"Quink" is Parker Pen's brand name ink, and is still sold.

Quink is what we had in school in bootles, and Quink was what we had in
our home in small bottles. I even knew not to call it "kwink" because I
knew the word "ink".

But but but.. I've always called it Kwink.

Me too. What else can one call it?

[occam]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
"Quink" is Parker Pen's brand name ink, and is still sold.

Quink is what we had in school in bootles, and Quink was what we had in
our home in small bottles. I even knew not to call it "kwink" because I
knew the word "ink".

    But but but.. I've always called it Kwink.

Me too. What else can one call it?

'Kwink' of course. Both you and Snidely have to bear in mind the source
of that assertion. It normally should come with the qualifier "...in
Denmark".

<Qwink, qwink>

[Hibou]

Post by occam

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Quink is what we had in school in bootles, and Quink was what we had in
our home in small bottles. I even knew not to call it "kwink" because I
knew the word "ink".

    But but but.. I've always called it Kwink.

Me too. What else can one call it?

'Kwink' of course. Both you and Snidely have to bear in mind the source
of that assertion. It normally should come with the qualifier "...in
Denmark".

'Kwink' for me too - when it's not 'Waterman'.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Janet
But but but.. I've always called it Kwink.

Me too. What else can one call it?

I call(ed) it "q-ink".

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Janet
But but but.. I've always called it Kwink.

Me too. What else can one call it?

I call(ed) it "q-ink".

Because you were used to queuing for it at the stationer?

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Janet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
"Quink" is Parker Pen's brand name ink, and is still sold.

Quink is what we had in school in bootles, and Quink was what we had in
our home in small bottles. I even knew not to call it "kwink" because I
knew the word "ink".

But but but.. I've always called it Kwink.

Me too. What else can one call it?

Even when it was Stephens? Like calling a tittue a "kleenex"?

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Janet

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
"Quink" is Parker Pen's brand name ink, and is still sold.

Quink is what we had in school in bootles, and Quink was what we had in
our home in small bottles. I even knew not to call it "kwink" because I
knew the word "ink".

But but but.. I've always called it Kwink.

Me too. What else can one call it?

Even when it was Stephens? Like calling a tittue a "kleenex"?

Gimborn, in these parts. Von Gimborn was a German apothecary
who started an ink factory in the Netherlands,
and became very rich by it. Ink apparently was big business, then.
(like the inkjet stuff is nowadays)

Having acquired the Dutch nationality he decided to build a villa
with a huge park around it that was to be filled with rare trees.

Unfortunately, crash, bankrupt, villa never got built.
But most of the trees had been planted already, survived.
and the Arborethum Gimborg is florishing.
It is one of those hidden attractions for discerning tourists
who don't want to crowd in front of 'De Nachtwacht'.

But back to langage. Gimborm used, and perhaps even invented,
ink bottles with a marble in them.
(hold upside down once, and you have a ready supply to dip the pen in)

Did these exist in Anglophonia, and if so, what are they called?

Jan
(being aware only of softdrink bottles with a marble for reclosing)

[occam]

But back to langage (sic). Gimborm used, and perhaps even invented,
ink bottles with a marble in them.

Perhaps. But this page - which has more than I ever need to know about
Gimborn - makes no mention of a marble in the bottle.

<https://www.pelikan-collectibles.com/en/Pelikan/Surroundings/index.html>

I have come across a bottle with a marble 'agitator', but I always
assumed it was to keep the ink (a colloid) well stirred.

(hold upside down once, and you have a ready supply to dip the pen in)
Did these exist in Anglophonia, and if so, what are they called?

'Agitators', apparently.

Here's someone who collects them:

<https://www.reddit.com/r/TattooArtists/comments/11v9dr9/does_anyone_else_collect_the_agitators_from_their/>

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by J. J. Lodder
[ … ]
Gimborn, in these parts. Von Gimborn was a German apothecary
who started an ink factory in the Netherlands,
and became very rich by it. Ink apparently was big business, then.
(like the inkjet stuff is nowadays)
Having acquired the Dutch nationality he decided to build a villa
with a huge park around it that was to be filled with rare trees.
Unfortunately, crash, bankrupt, villa never got built.
But most of the trees had been planted already, survived.
and the Arborethum Gimborg is florishing.
It is one of those hidden attractions for discerning tourists
who don't want to crowd in front of 'De Nachtwacht'.

Is that like the Mona Lisa, which people don't go to look at? They just
go to be photographed next to it.

Post by J. J. Lodder
But back to langage. Gimborm used, and perhaps even invented,
ink bottles with a marble in them.
(hold upside down once, and you have a ready supply to dip the pen in)
Did these exist in Anglophonia, and if so, what are they called?
Jan
(being aware only of softdrink bottles with a marble for reclosing)

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by J. J. Lodder
[ … ]
Gimborn, in these parts. Von Gimborn was a German apothecary
who started an ink factory in the Netherlands,
and became very rich by it. Ink apparently was big business, then.
(like the inkjet stuff is nowadays)
Having acquired the Dutch nationality he decided to build a villa
with a huge park around it that was to be filled with rare trees.
Unfortunately, crash, bankrupt, villa never got built.
But most of the trees had been planted already, survived.
and the Arborethum Gimborg is florishing.
It is one of those hidden attractions for discerning tourists
who don't want to crowd in front of 'De Nachtwacht'.

Is that like the Mona Lisa, which people don't go to look at? They just
go to be photographed next to it.

That too, but it is not that bad.
And it will be quite different for the next five years.
The Nachtwacht will be fully restored, in a glass case,
with the restaurators working in full view of the public.
<https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/stories/operatie-nachtwacht/story/restauratie-nachtwacht-gestart>

Jan

[occam]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 20:55:55 +0100, Silvano

Post by Silvano
I still remember the problem. We had to wear black school gowns, which I
still hate after all this time, but they were very practical because the
inkwell was on the right side and what I wrote in first class was mostly
blue. But then, whatever I wrote on the chalkboard was much better than
what everyone else wrote, because I had learned to write before I went
to school. Ink pens since class 2 were a huge improvement.

I was a rather ordinary child in grade school. I was neither the
smartest the dullest, the tallest the shortest, the fattest the
skinniest, the handsomest the ugliest or the most or least athletic.
The one honor accorded to me was that for one semester I was the
"Inkwell Monitor". It was my duty to each morning fill the inkwells
on each desk from the large bottle of "Quink" kept at the teacher's
desk. It was not mentioned in dispatches that no ink was ever spilled
in the pouring that semester, but I have not added that to my
curriculum vitae.

<smile> It's not too late. I would call myself "Quinkwell Monitor" if I
were you. You might get some advertising revenue.

Post by Tony Cooper
"Quink" is Parker Pen's brand name ink, and is still sold.

For the sake of balance, other brands of ink are also available.
"Pelikan" and "Mont Blanc" are just two of the brands in my desk-drawer.
My "Quink" bottle has clearly been endorsed by Parker (the pen brand),
and is the better known.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Phil
I've encountered objections to the term 'cackhanded' on the grounds
that it refers to left-handedness (although the dictionaries seem to
differ on this). I do have some sympathy with that; my mother was
left-handed, but was forced as a child to hold a pen or a knife in
the right hand as the opposite was "wrong".

In primary school I was taught by some very superstitious nuns. One of
their beliefs was that left-handedness was a sign of possession by the
devil.

A left-handed girl in my class had been hit so often with the edge of a
ruler that she must have ended up with a maimed hand.

My father, who was left-handed, used to complain that people kept
putting spoons backwards into the cutlery drawer.

[occam]

Post by Peter Moylan

I've encountered objections to the term 'cackhanded'  on the grounds
that it refers to left-handedness (although the dictionaries seem to
differ on this). I do have some sympathy with that; my mother was
left-handed, but was forced as a child to hold a pen or a knife in
the right hand as the opposite was "wrong".

In primary school I was taught by some very superstitious nuns. One of
their beliefs was that left-handedness was a sign of possession by the
devil.

Having never been taught by Catholics, that explanation is a new one for
me.

The reasons I was aware of were: 1- "writing with your left hand will
smudge the ink, as you write from left to right"; or 2- "The Junta will
put you in prison" (in Greece).

I guess - like all irrational ideas - the devil is in the detail.

Post by Peter Moylan
A left-handed girl in my class had been hit so often with the edge of a
ruler that she must have ended up with a maimed hand.
My father, who was left-handed, used to complain that people kept
putting spoons backwards into the cutlery drawer.

[Snidely]

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.
In English, both have connotations of clumsy / awkward / lacking in
refinement. The other thing the two words share is a discrimination of
the left (hand, foot) in contrast to the right.
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

Way back in the '70s, the Beetle Bailey cartoon addressed this; the
Chaplain and Lt Flap are walking together, and Flap complains about all
the negative uses of black. The Chaplain responds by listing several
positive uses. final panels are Lt Flap: "thank you, that helps";
Chaplain: "You were just having a black day."

/dps

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Post by Snidely

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.
In English, both have connotations of clumsy / awkward / lacking in
refinement.  The other thing the two words share is a discrimination of
the left (hand, foot) in contrast to the right.
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

Way back in the '70s, the Beetle Bailey cartoon addressed this; the
Chaplain and Lt Flap are walking together, and Flap complains about all
the negative uses of black.  The Chaplain responds by listing several
positive uses.  final panels are Lt Flap: "thank you, that helps";
Chaplain: "You were just having a black day."

Lt Flap: "You almost had me there, white man".

/Anders, Denmark

[Snidely]

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Snidely

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.
In English, both have connotations of clumsy / awkward / lacking in
refinement.  The other thing the two words share is a discrimination of
the left (hand, foot) in contrast to the right.
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

Way back in the '70s, the Beetle Bailey cartoon addressed this; the
Chaplain and Lt Flap are walking together, and Flap complains about all the
negative uses of black.  The Chaplain responds by listing several positive
uses.  final panels are Lt Flap: "thank you, that helps"; Chaplain: "You
were just having a black day."

Lt Flap: "You almost had me there, white man".
/Anders, Denmark

Yes. Thanks for assisting my memory.

/dps

[lar3ryca]

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.
In English, both have connotations of clumsy / awkward / lacking in
refinement. The other thing the two words share is a discrimination of
the left (hand, foot) in contrast to the right.
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values on
the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or 'right'
as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

All this talk of French made me think of a time when I worked for a
company that made locksmith tools.

The washroom had faucet handles that were both marked with a 'C' the
boss mentioned it, cautioning me to use the left-hand one for hot watr.

I replied, "No problem, I know which one is Cold and which one is Chaud.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been
parachuted into the English language and form a part of
everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left.
In English, both have connotations of clumsy / awkward / lacking in
refinement. The other thing the two words share is a discrimination
of the left (hand, foot) in contrast to the right.
How long before the PC brigade try and impose some egalitarian values
on the use of English and try and ban expressions using 'left' or
'right' as judgmental language.
(This has already started in the context of 'black' and 'white', as
racially loaded terms. Blackmail, black sheep, black mark etc.)

In politics, "left wing" and "right wing" originally described where the
parties sat in the chamber. The right wing held the government, and the
opposition sat on the left wing. Of course, that convention fell apart
once a left-wing party got into government. They should have stuck to
referring to the red party (socialists) and the blue party (conservatives).

Nowadays, when the power regularly alternates between left and right in
many countries, there is still a lingering feeling that "right" means
things like "establishment" and "conservative", and that the
left-wingers are the people who want to to disturb the God-given natural
order.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Post by Peter Moylan
In politics, "left wing" and "right wing" originally described where the
parties sat in the chamber. The right wing held the government, and the
opposition sat on the left wing. Of course, that convention fell apart
once a left-wing party got into government. They should have stuck to
referring to the red party (socialists) and the blue party (conservatives).
Nowadays, when the power regularly alternates between left and right in
many countries, there is still a lingering feeling that "right" means
things like "establishment" and "conservative", and that the
left-wingers are the people who want to to disturb the God-given natural
order.

Or that "right" means things like "business as usual" and "left" means
things like "cares about people not in power".

/Anders, Denmark

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan
In politics, "left wing" and "right wing" originally described where the
parties sat in the chamber. The right wing held the government, and the
opposition sat on the left wing.

In Denmark that would be nobility to the right and farmers to the left.

Post by Peter Moylan
Of course, that convention fell apart once a left-wing party got into
government. They should have stuck to referring to the red party
(socialists) and the blue party (conservatives).
Nowadays, when the power regularly alternates between left and right in
many countries, there is still a lingering feeling that "right" means
things like "establishment" and "conservative", and that the
left-wingers are the people who want to to disturb the God-given natural
order.

Not just a feeling. The left wing parties are more radical than the
average.

Except that I'm not sure about "conservative". The right wing parties
like to tighten the laws about immigration and legal penalties - and
they do.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 13:15:32 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
In politics, "left wing" and "right wing" originally described where the
parties sat in the chamber. The right wing held the government, and the
opposition sat on the left wing.

In Denmark that would be nobility to the right and farmers to the left.

Post by Peter Moylan
Of course, that convention fell apart once a left-wing party got into
government. They should have stuck to referring to the red party
(socialists) and the blue party (conservatives).
Nowadays, when the power regularly alternates between left and right in
many countries, there is still a lingering feeling that "right" means
things like "establishment" and "conservative", and that the
left-wingers are the people who want to to disturb the God-given natural
order.

Not just a feeling. The left wing parties are more radical than the
average.
Except that I'm not sure about "conservative". The right wing parties
like to tighten the laws about immigration and legal penalties - and
they do.

There is, however, also a radical right. Hitler was one example. He
made a lot of radical changes, and so was anything but conservative.

Trump is another. He too wants to make a lot of radical changes, and
can hardly be described as conservative.

[Snidely]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Sun, 1 Dec 2024 13:15:32 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
In politics, "left wing" and "right wing" originally described where the
parties sat in the chamber. The right wing held the government, and the
opposition sat on the left wing.

In Denmark that would be nobility to the right and farmers to the left.

Post by Peter Moylan
Of course, that convention fell apart once a left-wing party got into
government. They should have stuck to referring to the red party
(socialists) and the blue party (conservatives).
Nowadays, when the power regularly alternates between left and right in
many countries, there is still a lingering feeling that "right" means
things like "establishment" and "conservative", and that the
left-wingers are the people who want to to disturb the God-given natural
order.

Not just a feeling. The left wing parties are more radical than the
average.
Except that I'm not sure about "conservative". The right wing parties
like to tighten the laws about immigration and legal penalties - and
they do.

There is, however, also a radical right. [...]
Trump is another. He too wants to make a lot of radical changes, and
can hardly be described as conservative.

He want's to conserve the wealth of his buddies, as well as his own.

/dps

[occam]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
In politics, "left wing" and "right wing" originally described where the
parties sat in the chamber. The right wing held the government, and the
opposition sat on the left wing.

In Denmark that would be nobility to the right and farmers to the left.

Post by Peter Moylan
Of course, that convention fell apart once a left-wing party got into
government. They should have stuck to referring to the red party
(socialists) and the blue party (conservatives).
Nowadays, when the power regularly alternates between left and right in
many countries, there is still a lingering feeling that "right" means
things like "establishment" and "conservative", and that the
left-wingers are the people who want to to disturb the God-given natural
order.

Not just a feeling. The left wing parties are more radical than the
average.

Eh? That's a typical nonsense generalisation if there ever was one.
(Recommendation - in future, you are allowed to add 'in Denmark' after
all your statements, so that I do not feel the need to reply.]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Except that I'm not sure about "conservative". The right wing parties
like to tighten the laws about immigration and legal penalties - and
they do.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by occam

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
In politics, "left wing" and "right wing" originally described where the
parties sat in the chamber. The right wing held the government, and the
opposition sat on the left wing.

In Denmark that would be nobility to the right and farmers to the left.

Post by Peter Moylan
Of course, that convention fell apart once a left-wing party got into
government. They should have stuck to referring to the red party
(socialists) and the blue party (conservatives).
Nowadays, when the power regularly alternates between left and right in
many countries, there is still a lingering feeling that "right" means
things like "establishment" and "conservative", and that the
left-wingers are the people who want to to disturb the God-given natural
order.

Not just a feeling. The left wing parties are more radical than the
average.

Eh? That's a typical nonsense generalisation if there ever was one.
(Recommendation - in future, you are allowed to add 'in Denmark' after
all your statements, so that I do not feel the need to reply.]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Except that I'm not sure about "conservative". The right wing parties
like to tighten the laws about immigration and legal penalties - and
they do.

The meaning of the word "radical" has been greatly diminished in the
US. All references to the other political party are either to the
"radical left" or the "radical right". Any policy promulgated by one
party is deemed to be "radical" by the other party.

To me, a policy that is "radical" is a fundamentally different policy
that the extant policy. It describes an extreme change from what has
been the policy.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by occam

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
In politics, "left wing" and "right wing" originally described where the
parties sat in the chamber. The right wing held the government, and the
opposition sat on the left wing.

In Denmark that would be nobility to the right and farmers to the left.

Post by Peter Moylan
Of course, that convention fell apart once a left-wing party got into
government. They should have stuck to referring to the red party
(socialists) and the blue party (conservatives).
Nowadays, when the power regularly alternates between left and right in
many countries, there is still a lingering feeling that "right" means
things like "establishment" and "conservative", and that the
left-wingers are the people who want to to disturb the God-given natural
order.

Not just a feeling. The left wing parties are more radical than the
average.

Eh? That's a typical nonsense generalisation if there ever was one.
(Recommendation - in future, you are allowed to add 'in Denmark' after
all your statements, so that I do not feel the need to reply.]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Except that I'm not sure about "conservative". The right wing parties
like to tighten the laws about immigration and legal penalties - and
they do.

The meaning of the word "radical" has been greatly diminished in the
US. All references to the other political party are either to the
"radical left" or the "radical right". Any policy promulgated by one
party is deemed to be "radical" by the other party.
To me, a policy that is "radical" is a fundamentally different policy
that the extant policy. It describes an extreme change from what has
been the policy.

You have gone to the root of the matter.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Not just a feeling. The left wing parties are more radical than the
average.

The meaning of the word "radical" has been greatly diminished in the
US. All references to the other political party are either to the
"radical left" or the "radical right". Any policy promulgated by one
party is deemed to be "radical" by the other party.
To me, a policy that is "radical" is a fundamentally different policy
that the extant policy. It describes an extreme change from what has
been the policy.

That is how I used the word.

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 03 Dec 2024 11:24:11 -0500, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by occam

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
In politics, "left wing" and "right wing" originally described where the
parties sat in the chamber. The right wing held the government, and the
opposition sat on the left wing.

In Denmark that would be nobility to the right and farmers to the left.

Post by Peter Moylan
Of course, that convention fell apart once a left-wing party got into
government. They should have stuck to referring to the red party
(socialists) and the blue party (conservatives).
Nowadays, when the power regularly alternates between left and right in
many countries, there is still a lingering feeling that "right" means
things like "establishment" and "conservative", and that the
left-wingers are the people who want to to disturb the God-given natural
order.

Not just a feeling. The left wing parties are more radical than the
average.

Eh? That's a typical nonsense generalisation if there ever was one.
(Recommendation - in future, you are allowed to add 'in Denmark' after
all your statements, so that I do not feel the need to reply.]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Except that I'm not sure about "conservative". The right wing parties
like to tighten the laws about immigration and legal penalties - and
they do.

The meaning of the word "radical" has been greatly diminished in the
US. All references to the other political party are either to the
"radical left" or the "radical right". Any policy promulgated by one
party is deemed to be "radical" by the other party.
To me, a policy that is "radical" is a fundamentally different policy
that the extant policy. It describes an extreme change from what has
been the policy.

That's how I understand it, and "conservative" is the opposite of
"radical". Conservatives want to change as little as possible, and if
change is necessary it should be gradual.

[Snidely]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 03 Dec 2024 11:24:11 -0500, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by occam

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
In politics, "left wing" and "right wing" originally described where the
parties sat in the chamber. The right wing held the government, and the
opposition sat on the left wing.

In Denmark that would be nobility to the right and farmers to the left.

Post by Peter Moylan
Of course, that convention fell apart once a left-wing party got into
government. They should have stuck to referring to the red party
(socialists) and the blue party (conservatives).
Nowadays, when the power regularly alternates between left and right in
many countries, there is still a lingering feeling that "right" means
things like "establishment" and "conservative", and that the
left-wingers are the people who want to to disturb the God-given natural
order.

Not just a feeling. The left wing parties are more radical than the
average.

Eh? That's a typical nonsense generalisation if there ever was one.
(Recommendation - in future, you are allowed to add 'in Denmark' after
all your statements, so that I do not feel the need to reply.]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Except that I'm not sure about "conservative". The right wing parties
like to tighten the laws about immigration and legal penalties - and
they do.

The meaning of the word "radical" has been greatly diminished in the
US. All references to the other political party are either to the
"radical left" or the "radical right". Any policy promulgated by one
party is deemed to be "radical" by the other party.
To me, a policy that is "radical" is a fundamentally different policy
that the extant policy. It describes an extreme change from what has
been the policy.

That's how I understand it, and "conservative" is the opposite of
"radical". Conservatives want to change as little as possible, and if
change is necessary it should be gradual.

Especially not change that dilutes their power or wealth.

/dps

[Hibou]

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left. [...]

According to the TLF, 'maladroit' is 'mal-adroit', the opposite of being
adroit. And 'adroit' is 'a-droit', 'droit' here meaning (I think)
straight, regular, comme il faut... (definition 2 in the TLF (en ligne
droite etc.) - definition 1 is 'right').

<http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/showp.exe?304;s=718650945;p=combi.htm>

[occam]

Post by Hibou

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left. [...]

According to the TLF, 'maladroit' is 'mal-adroit', the opposite of being
adroit. And 'adroit' is 'a-droit', 'droit' here meaning (I think)
straight, regular, comme il faut... (definition 2 in the TLF (en ligne
droite etc.) - definition 1 is 'right').

And you do not suspect that the etymology of 'adroit' (def 2) is a
direct subsequence of 'droit' (def 1) ? I do. Horse-and-cart and all
that...

Post by Hibou
<http://atilf.atilf.fr/dendien/scripts/tlfiv5/showp.exe?
304;s=718650945;p=combi.htm>

[Hibou]

Post by occam

Post by Hibou

Post by occam
'Maladroit' and 'gauche' are two French words that have been parachuted
into the English language and form a part of everyday(-ish) use.
I had an epiphany during my Duolingo session today. 'Maladroit' is
literally 'bad-with-the-right'. Gauche means left. [...]

According to the TLF, 'maladroit' is 'mal-adroit', the opposite of being
adroit. And 'adroit' is 'a-droit', 'droit' here meaning (I think)
straight, regular, comme il faut... (definition 2 in the TLF (en ligne
droite etc.) - definition 1 is 'right').

And you do not suspect that the etymology of 'adroit' (def 2) is a
direct subsequence of 'droit' (def 1) ? I do. Horse-and-cart and all
that...

Well, my suspicions are not data.

The TLF traces 'droit' meaning straight etc. back to ~1050, and meaning
'right' back to the 16th C.. 'Adroit' it traces back to the 12th C. - so
it looks as if it came from the 'straight' etc. sense, not the 'right'
sense.

[Hibou]

Post by Hibou
The TLF traces 'droit' meaning straight etc. back to ~1050, and meaning
'right' back to the 16th C.. 'Adroit' it traces back to the 12th C. - so
it looks as if it came from the 'straight' etc. sense, not the 'right'
sense.

Le Littré confirms the relationship, though not the dates, says that
'adroit' is related to 'adret', 'droit' meaning 'straight' to 'dret'.

'Droit' meaning 'right', though a homograph, is a different word,
related to the Provençal 'drech'.

<https://www.littre.org/definition/droit>
<https://www.littre.org/definition/droit.2>
<https://www.littre.org/definition/adroit>

Voilà ! Both gauchers and droitiers can be adroit or maladroit.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Hibou

Post by Hibou
The TLF traces 'droit' meaning straight etc. back to ~1050, and
meaning 'right' back to the 16th C.. 'Adroit' it traces back to the
12th C. - so it looks as if it came from the 'straight' etc. sense,
not the 'right' sense.

Le Littré confirms the relationship, though not the dates, says that
'adroit' is related to 'adret', 'droit' meaning 'straight' to 'dret'.
'Droit' meaning 'right', though a homograph, is a different word,
related to the Provençal 'drech'.
<https://www.littre.org/definition/droit>
<https://www.littre.org/definition/droit.2>
<https://www.littre.org/definition/adroit>
Voilà ! Both gauchers and droitiers can be adroit or maladroit.

Can "droiters" also be gauche?

[Hibou]

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by Hibou
Voilà ! Both gauchers and droitiers can be adroit or maladroit.

Can "droiters" also be gauche?

Certainly. A well known example is the villainous Sinister Dexter.

[wugi]

Post by Hibou

Post by Hibou
The TLF traces 'droit' meaning straight etc. back to ~1050, and
meaning 'right' back to the 16th C.. 'Adroit' it traces back to the
12th C. - so it looks as if it came from the 'straight' etc. sense,
not the 'right' sense.

Le Littré confirms the relationship, though not the dates, says that
'adroit' is related to 'adret', 'droit' meaning 'straight' to 'dret'.
'Droit' meaning 'right', though a homograph, is a different word,
related to the Provençal 'drech'.

Au contraire, it's the same word, having acquired an extra meaning.

Post by Hibou
<https://www.littre.org/definition/droit>
<https://www.littre.org/definition/droit.2>
<https://www.littre.org/definition/adroit>
Voilà ! Both gauchers and droitiers can be adroit or maladroit.

Insofar these refer to the "direct" meaning and not the "right" one :)

BTW F. gauche, left, stems from a Frankish word still there in D.
wankelen, to stagger. So it meant 'maladroit', not straight, from the
start, as opposed to droit, straight...right[!].