Discussion:
It's galling me ...
(too old to reply)
Snidely
2024-09-07 23:26:54 UTC
Permalink
In my brushes with social media, I've run across a poster who regulary
refers to certain people as a "gall". While this may be a 2nd-language
type of thing, it has prompted me to reflect on pronouncing that word
vs the expected "gal" (as in "gal Friday"; cf "pal Joey"). The latter
at the back of my throat, and with my tongue pulled back and concave
towards my palate. The former I say more forward, with both my jaw and
tongue much more lax.

("gal" and "pal" rhyme and match in my articulation, while "gall",
"pall", and "mall" are a set for me)

My gal's pal galled the pall bearer at the mall chapel.

/dps "ok, I'll workshop that"
--
"What do you think of my cart, Miss Morland? A neat one, is not it?
Well hung: curricle-hung in fact. Come sit by me and we'll test the
springs."
(Speculative fiction by H.Lacedaemonian.)
occam
2024-09-08 07:22:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
("gal" and "pal" rhyme and match in my articulation, while "gall",
"pall", and "mall" are a set for me)
By "mall" I assume you mean as in "shopping mall"? In London there is
the most famous of streets - The Pall Mall - that runs parallel to
another famous route - The Mall - that leads up to Buckingham Palace.

The BrE pronunciation of "Pall" (and "Mall") in Pall Mall is closer to
"pal", as in PayPal".
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-09-08 09:07:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
The BrE pronunciation of "Pall" (and "Mall") in Pall Mall is closer to
"pal", as in PayPal".
I once - long time ago - was told that the pronunciation of Pall Mall
was "pell-mell". Is that wrong?
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Chris Elvidge
2024-09-08 11:44:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by occam
The BrE pronunciation of "Pall" (and "Mall") in Pall Mall is closer to
"pal", as in PayPal".
I once - long time ago - was told that the pronunciation of Pall Mall
was "pell-mell". Is that wrong?
IME the southern (and London) pronunciation is nearer to pawl mawl (paul
maul, perhaps). Northerners tend to pal mal. However The Mall (Buck
House to Trafalgar Sq) is normally pronounced mawl (see above, also
shopping mall.)

However posh people (toffs) have their own pronunciation rules (pell
mell?). Listen to Chas and/or Liz sometime.
--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT INSTIGATE REVOLUTION
Bob Martin
2024-09-09 05:31:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by occam
The BrE pronunciation of "Pall" (and "Mall") in Pall Mall is closer to
"pal", as in PayPal".
I once - long time ago - was told that the pronunciation of Pall Mall
was "pell-mell". Is that wrong?
IME the southern (and London) pronunciation is nearer to pawl mawl (paul
maul, perhaps). Northerners tend to pal mal. However The Mall (Buck
House to Trafalgar Sq) is normally pronounced mawl (see above, also
shopping mall.)
London pronunciation of both Pall Mall and The Mall is with the 'cat' vowel.
That's from my years working in Pall Mall and the BBC agrees with me.
Silvano
2024-09-09 09:20:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Martin
Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by occam
The BrE pronunciation of "Pall" (and "Mall") in Pall Mall is closer to
"pal", as in PayPal".
I once - long time ago - was told that the pronunciation of Pall Mall
was "pell-mell". Is that wrong?
IME the southern (and London) pronunciation is nearer to pawl mawl (paul
maul, perhaps). Northerners tend to pal mal. However The Mall (Buck
House to Trafalgar Sq) is normally pronounced mawl (see above, also
shopping mall.)
London pronunciation of both Pall Mall and The Mall is with the 'cat' vowel.
That's from my years working in Pall Mall and the BBC agrees with me.
Excuse me, if two Englishmen disagree so starkly about a relatively
simple pronunciation issue, how are poor foreigners like me supposed to
learn a good English pronunciation?

<https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/mall> shows two
pronunciations for British English and two different ones for American
English without any further indications (preference of the dictionary
authors, regional distribution or something else).
Hibou
2024-09-09 09:42:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Bob Martin
Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by occam
The BrE pronunciation of "Pall" (and "Mall") in Pall Mall is closer to
"pal", as in PayPal".
I once - long time ago - was told that the pronunciation of Pall Mall
was "pell-mell". Is that wrong?
IME the southern (and London) pronunciation is nearer to pawl mawl (paul
maul, perhaps). Northerners tend to pal mal. However The Mall (Buck
House to Trafalgar Sq) is normally pronounced mawl (see above, also
shopping mall.)
London pronunciation of both Pall Mall and The Mall is with the 'cat' vowel.
That's from my years working in Pall Mall and the BBC agrees with me.
Excuse me, if two Englishmen disagree so starkly about a relatively
simple pronunciation issue, how are poor foreigners like me supposed to
learn a good English pronunciation? [...]
It's determined by context, just another thing to learn (and, anyway,
foreigners are not held to native standards). I agree with Bob, that the
vowel in 'The Mall' in London is like the one in 'cat'. When it's a
question of shopping, the pronunciation allows one to joke about who is
the fairest of the mall (if one is so inclined).

Simples!
lar3ryca
2024-09-09 22:47:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Silvano
Post by Bob Martin
Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by occam
The BrE pronunciation of "Pall" (and "Mall") in Pall Mall is closer to
"pal", as in PayPal".
I once - long time ago - was told that the pronunciation of Pall Mall
was "pell-mell". Is that wrong?
IME the southern (and London) pronunciation is nearer to pawl mawl (paul
maul, perhaps). Northerners tend to pal mal. However The Mall (Buck
House to Trafalgar Sq) is normally pronounced mawl (see above, also
shopping mall.)
London pronunciation of both Pall Mall and The Mall is with the 'cat' vowel.
That's from my years working in Pall Mall and the BBC agrees with me.
Excuse me, if two Englishmen disagree so starkly about a relatively
simple pronunciation issue, how are poor foreigners like me supposed to
learn a good English pronunciation? [...]
It's determined by context, just another thing to learn (and, anyway,
foreigners are not held to native standards). I agree with Bob, that the
vowel in 'The Mall' in London is like the one in 'cat'. When it's a
question of shopping, the pronunciation allows one to joke about who is
the fairest of the mall (if one is so inclined).
Simples!
Wait, not so simples. Am I to understand that you consider the vowels in
'cat' and 'mall' to be the same? If so, which one are you mispronouncing?

As for being so inclined, I lean toward rhyming 'mall' with 'fall', and
'cat' with 'bat'
--
Hermits can't be tried by jury
occam
2024-09-09 09:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Excuse me, if two Englishmen disagree so starkly about a relatively
simple pronunciation issue,
But one of the the two is Chris Elvidge. (Reaches for his pinch of
salt.) </smile>
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-09-09 15:54:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Bob Martin
Post by Chris Elvidge
IME the southern (and London) pronunciation is nearer to pawl mawl (paul
maul, perhaps). Northerners tend to pal mal. However The Mall (Buck
House to Trafalgar Sq) is normally pronounced mawl (see above, also
shopping mall.)
London pronunciation of both Pall Mall and The Mall is with the 'cat' vowel.
That's from my years working in Pall Mall and the BBC agrees with me.
Excuse me, if two Englishmen disagree so starkly about a relatively
simple pronunciation issue, how are poor foreigners like me supposed to
learn a good English pronunciation?
I don't see your problem. If the English don't agree, then any
reasonable pronunciation will do.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Stefan Ram
2024-09-09 10:27:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bob Martin
London pronunciation of both Pall Mall and The Mall is with the 'cat' vowel.
That's from my years working in Pall Mall and the BBC agrees with me.
Wells doesn't have a listing for "Pall Mall," but here's the 411:

pall pɔːl ‖ [pɑːl].

That's code for "pɔːl" being the go-to in both the UK and the US.
(Stateside, we've also got "pɑːl" in our back pocket.)

Now, "Mall" is a whole other can of worms. Wells goes to
town on this one, throwing down a bunch of options and even
busting out some charts showing how pronunciation changes
with age. From what I can make out, the old-timers across the
pond lean towards "æ," while the young guns are more likely to
roll with "ɔː."

But here's the kicker: Wells lays it on the line, saying,
"Always mæl in the London place-names The Mall, Chiswick
Mall, Pall Mall." No ifs, ands, or buts about it!
Sam Plusnet
2024-09-08 17:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by occam
The BrE pronunciation of "Pall" (and "Mall") in Pall Mall is closer to
"pal", as in PayPal".
I once - long time ago - was told that the pronunciation of Pall Mall
was "pell-mell". Is that wrong?
That is wrong, but the name does derive from the game - variously named,
but "pell-mell" is one of the variants.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pall_Mall,_London
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pall-mall
--
Sam Plusnet
occam
2024-09-08 19:57:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by occam
The BrE pronunciation of "Pall" (and "Mall") in Pall Mall is closer to
"pal", as in PayPal".
I once - long time ago - was told that the pronunciation of Pall Mall
was "pell-mell". Is that wrong?
Who told you that? He was wrong. Or maybe Danish.

Pell-mell is an altogether different thing. It means helter-skelter.
Darting about in a haphazard manner.
Snidely
2024-09-08 20:53:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by occam
The BrE pronunciation of "Pall" (and "Mall") in Pall Mall is closer to
"pal", as in PayPal".
I once - long time ago - was told that the pronunciation of Pall Mall
was "pell-mell". Is that wrong?
Who told you that? He was wrong. Or maybe Danish.
Pell-mell is an altogether different thing. It means helter-skelter.
Darting about in a haphazard manner.
Not an /altogether/ different thing, since Sam's note about the game
applies, this time referring to the manner of play rather than the
location used.

/dps
--
Why would I want to be alone with my thoughts?
Have you heard some of the shit that comes out of my mouth?
-- the World Wide Web
occam
2024-09-09 09:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by occam
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by occam
The BrE pronunciation of "Pall" (and "Mall") in Pall Mall is closer to
"pal", as in PayPal".
I once - long time ago - was told that the pronunciation of Pall Mall
was "pell-mell". Is that wrong?
Who told you that? He was wrong. Or maybe Danish.
Pell-mell is an altogether different thing. It means helter-skelter.
Darting about in a haphazard manner.
Not an /altogether/ different thing, since Sam's note about the game
applies, this time referring to the manner of play rather than the
location used.
<thumbs up!> Yet, it is spelled differently, pronounced differently,
and used in different contexts. <Something about ducks and quacks.>
Snidely
2024-09-09 18:01:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Snidely
Post by occam
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by occam
The BrE pronunciation of "Pall" (and "Mall") in Pall Mall is closer to
"pal", as in PayPal".
I once - long time ago - was told that the pronunciation of Pall Mall
was "pell-mell". Is that wrong?
Who told you that? He was wrong. Or maybe Danish.
Pell-mell is an altogether different thing. It means helter-skelter.
Darting about in a haphazard manner.
Not an /altogether/ different thing, since Sam's note about the game
applies, this time referring to the manner of play rather than the
location used.
<thumbs up!> Yet, it is spelled differently, pronounced differently,
and used in different contexts. <Something about ducks and quacks.>
So are oak and beech. Just deal with evolution, kid.

/dps
--
potstickers, Japanese gyoza, Chinese dumplings, let's do it
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