Today's headline: Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya

[jerryfriedman]

I wasn't sure what this headline meant till I glanced at the article,
partly because of a locution that was new to me.


Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya

https://www.riograndesun.com/news/sheriff-cross-commissions-fire-marshal-pablo-montoya/article_91ad8bf0-6610-11ef-8e78-435502feba57.html

--
Jerry Friedman

[BéCé]

Post by jerryfriedman
I wasn't sure what this headline meant till I glanced at the article,
partly because of a locution that was new to me.
Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya
https://www.riograndesun.com/news/sheriff-cross-commissions-fire-marshal-pablo-montoya/article_91ad8bf0-6610-11ef-8e78-435502feba57.html

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons

We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact
***@riograndesun.com or call 505-753-2126.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by BéCé

Post by jerryfriedman
I wasn't sure what this headline meant till I glanced at the article,
partly because of a locution that was new to me.
Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya
https://www.riograndesun.com/news/sheriff-cross-commissions-fire-marshal-pablo-montoya/article_91ad8bf0-6610-11ef-8e78-435502feba57.html

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact

The problem arises from the fact that one meaning of "fire" is to
"discharge" ("sack") a person from a job. However, Montoya is a"Fire
Marshall", with "Fire Marshall" being a job title. "Marshall" is also
a job title in law enforcement.

Reading the headline/link, it is unclear if Montoya was removed from
his job as a Marshall, or Montoya was given extra responsibilities in
the fire department.

In this case, Montoya was commissioned to have extra responsibilities.
The "cross" aspect is that he now has responsibilities in both the
city and the country rather than just the city.

Drifting a bit...we often see "made redundant" used in the UK to mean
a person is no longer employed by the organization. That suggests to
us that the person is no longer needed because the job no longer needs
doing, the organization is reducing their payroll, or there are others
who do the same job.

Yet, it seems to include being removed from the job for any
non-criminal reason. It seems that being incompetant is grounds for
being made redundant...a polite way of saying the person was sacked.

[LionelEdwards]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by BéCé

Post by jerryfriedman
I wasn't sure what this headline meant till I glanced at the article,
partly because of a locution that was new to me.
Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya
https://www.riograndesun.com/news/sheriff-cross-commissions-fire-marshal-pablo-montoya/article_91ad8bf0-6610-11ef-8e78-435502feba57.html

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact

The problem arises from the fact that one meaning of "fire" is to
"discharge" ("sack") a person from a job. However, Montoya is a"Fire
Marshall", with "Fire Marshall" being a job title. "Marshall" is also
a job title in law enforcement.
Reading the headline/link, it is unclear if Montoya was removed from
his job as a Marshall, or Montoya was given extra responsibilities in
the fire department.
In this case, Montoya was commissioned to have extra responsibilities.
The "cross" aspect is that he now has responsibilities in both the
city and the country rather than just the city.
Drifting a bit...we often see "made redundant" used in the UK to mean
a person is no longer employed by the organization. That suggests to
us that the person is no longer needed because the job no longer needs
doing, the organization is reducing their payroll, or there are others
who do the same job.

Yes. "Redundant" means (of a person or anything else) surplus to
requirements.

Post by Tony Cooper
Yet, it seems to include being removed from the job for any
non-criminal reason. It seems that being incompetant is grounds for
being made redundant...a polite way of saying the person was sacked.

It doesn't mean that.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper
Drifting a bit...we often see "made redundant" used in the UK to
mean a person is no longer employed by the organization. That
suggests to us that the person is no longer needed because the job no
longer needs doing, the organization is reducing their payroll, or
there are others who do the same job.
Yet, it seems to include being removed from the job for any
non-criminal reason. It seems that being incompetant is grounds for
being made redundant...a polite way of saying the person was sacked.

At least in Australia, there is a legal aspect to this. There are, or
were, unfair dismissal laws that meant you couldn't just sack someone on
a whim. There had to be good grounds. One way around this was to declare
the position redundant. I think that meant that the employer had to wait
a year before refilling the position, but a workaround was to create a
new position whose description was subtly different.

In the popular mind, then, redundancy was seen as a euphemism to
describe just about any way of getting rid of workers.

These days the bigger companies have moved on to a different approach.
They don't have employees, they have contractors supplied by labour hire
firms. It's easier to sack a contractor, and you don't have to pay them
as well.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Peter Moylan
These days the bigger companies have moved on to a different approach.
They don't have employees, they have contractors supplied by labour hire
firms. It's easier to sack a contractor, and you don't have to pay them
as well.

Commonly called "outsourcing".

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan
These days the bigger companies have moved on to a different approach.
They don't have employees, they have contractors supplied by labour hire
firms. It's easier to sack a contractor, and you don't have to pay them
as well.

It's also easier to close your eyes for which kind of people the
contractor hires and how much he pays them.

[micky]

In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 31 Aug 2024 10:03:05 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
Drifting a bit...we often see "made redundant" used in the UK to
mean a person is no longer employed by the organization. That
suggests to us that the person is no longer needed because the job no
longer needs doing, the organization is reducing their payroll, or
there are others who do the same job.
Yet, it seems to include being removed from the job for any
non-criminal reason. It seems that being incompetant is grounds for
being made redundant...a polite way of saying the person was sacked.

At least in Australia, there is a legal aspect to this. There are, or
were, unfair dismissal laws that meant you couldn't just sack someone on
a whim.

I'm not too informed about this but I think in the US some business with
union shops have this rule too.

Post by Peter Moylan
There had to be good grounds. One way around this was to declare
the position redundant.

And maybe this workaround.

Post by Peter Moylan
I think that meant that the employer had to wait
a year before refilling the position, but a workaround was to create a
new position whose description was subtly different.
In the popular mind, then, redundancy was seen as a euphemism to
describe just about any way of getting rid of workers.

And maybe this result.

Post by Peter Moylan
These days the bigger companies have moved on to a different approach.
They don't have employees, they have contractors supplied by labour hire
firms. It's easier to sack a contractor, and you don't have to pay them
as well.

When I worked at Bethlehem Steel Corp, I was a contractor as a computer
programmer. I was there for years. I'm not sure why they used
contractors. They also had employees, some of whom (most of whom?) had
been mill employees who learned the new trade after they became
"redundant" in the mill because of mechanization. I don't want to call
it partial automation because things were still initiated manually. I
think the Continuous Caster made some jobs unnecessary. Or maybe it was
because one of the mills was closed entirely

Yes, no problem firing a contractor. Tell his boss and he's out by the
next morning, but I only know of one time they did that of our group of
about 20, and afaict, he fully deserved it. Wouldn't do what he was
told, wanted to do something else. Oh, yes, my own contracting company
fired me, but the client (Beth Steel) arranged for me to work for
another small contracting company before I even knew I'd been fired. I
think I was his only employee.

When I had a fight with my girlfriend (who also worked there for the
same contracting company, for longer, and had a higher job than I did),
I think I left early and after I got home the contracting company called
me and wanted me to come in and talk. I said I was already home and
didn't want to go out again, but I'd come in the next morning. He
repeated that I should come in now, and I refused. (It was silly. They
can yell at me tomorrow just as well, plus I was in a bad mood because
of the fight with the girlfriend and I would have been contentious with
them.)

I forget if I did go in the next morning But I know that the next
afternoon my client supervisor (that is , he worked for Beth Steel and
was in charge of the project we were working on) had me into his office
and was as nice as could be, more like a father than a boss, didn't
rebuke me at all, just talked about my problem. And not because it was
an effective management style but because that's the way he was. I
already felt more loyalty to the client (who was paying and deserved my
efforts) than I did to my actual employer, and this strengthened that
feeling a lot.

A year earlier, the contracting company was trying to decrease the
float, you might call it. Mostly they paid us out of the money that the
client paid them, but they had to keep some cash in the checking account
to pay when we werent' billable because we were on vacation. So they
told us we had to give 30 or maybe 60 days advance notice when we were
going to take a day off. I asked my on-site contractor-boss, What
happens if I suddently want to take a day off? He said, That's what
sick leave is for. No requirement to be sick, apparently.

The contracting company was in business for 47 years, with branches in
several or manny cities, and I read that they had over 10,000 employees,
but they were sold when the founder was 69yo and were named a few years
later. The founder, after whom it was named, had written a very
short book, which they gave to every employee, on one specific little
aspect of management. It said when a supervisor criticizes a
subordinate, he should start off with a minute of praise, 3 minutes of
criticism, and a minute of praise. But I had been criticized or rebuked
a couple times and no one ever did this.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by micky
In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 31 Aug 2024 10:03:05 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
Drifting a bit...we often see "made redundant" used in the UK to
mean a person is no longer employed by the organization. That
suggests to us that the person is no longer needed because the job no
longer needs doing, the organization is reducing their payroll, or
there are others who do the same job.
Yet, it seems to include being removed from the job for any
non-criminal reason. It seems that being incompetant is grounds for
being made redundant...a polite way of saying the person was sacked.

At least in Australia, there is a legal aspect to this. There are, or
were, unfair dismissal laws that meant you couldn't just sack someone on
a whim.

I'm not too informed about this but I think in the US some business with
union shops have this rule too.

My reading of fiction suggests that some US states have "At Will"
legislation (or maybe it's a lack of legislation?) so an employer may
fire someone, on the spot, without giving any reason or justification.
Is that true?

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by micky
In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 31 Aug 2024 10:03:05 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
Drifting a bit...we often see "made redundant" used in the UK to
mean a person is no longer employed by the organization. That
suggests to us that the person is no longer needed because the job no
longer needs doing, the organization is reducing their payroll, or
there are others who do the same job.
Yet, it seems to include being removed from the job for any
non-criminal reason. It seems that being incompetant is grounds for
being made redundant...a polite way of saying the person was sacked.

At least in Australia, there is a legal aspect to this. There are, or
were, unfair dismissal laws that meant you couldn't just sack someone on
a whim.

I'm not too informed about this but I think in the US some business with
union shops have this rule too.

My reading of fiction suggests that some US states have "At Will"
legislation (or maybe it's a lack of legislation?) so an employer may
fire someone, on the spot, without giving any reason or justification.
Is that true?

Yes, but "some" is not the word here. All states except Montana are
"At Will" states, and employees in Montana are firable "At Will" for
the first 12 months of employment.

Employees under contract - including union members - are subject to
the terms of the contract which may override the "At Will" aspect.

But, your sentence above needs an addition: "...so an employer may
fire someone, on the spot, without giving any reason or justification
as long as the reason isn't illegal."

The primary reasons a firing might be illegal are:

...Discrimination based on race, sex, age, nation of origin,
disability, or genetic information

...Retaliation for reporting illegal or unsafe workplace practices

...Refusing to conduct illegal activities

As a former employer of large staff, I can attest that an "At Will"
firing can be a tricky business. I had a gay male employee that I
wanted to fire because of excessive absences and disruptive behavior
in the office (He frequently engaged in screaming phone arguments with
his partners). When he was at work, and not on the phone with a
partner, he was quite good at his job. It just got too much, though.

My lawyer advised me to document his absences and disruptive behavior
by sending him memos at each instance and building a file else he
could sue based on discrimination. I accumulated two months of such
memos before firing him. He did engage an attorney, but presented
with the file his attorney backed off.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by micky
In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 31 Aug 2024 10:03:05 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
Drifting a bit...we often see "made redundant" used in the UK to
mean a person is no longer employed by the organization. That
suggests to us that the person is no longer needed because the job no
longer needs doing, the organization is reducing their payroll, or
there are others who do the same job.
Yet, it seems to include being removed from the job for any
non-criminal reason. It seems that being incompetant is grounds for
being made redundant...a polite way of saying the person was sacked.

At least in Australia, there is a legal aspect to this. There are, or
were, unfair dismissal laws that meant you couldn't just sack someone on
a whim.

I'm not too informed about this but I think in the US some business with
union shops have this rule too.

My reading of fiction suggests that some US states have "At Will"
legislation (or maybe it's a lack of legislation?) so an employer may
fire someone, on the spot, without giving any reason or justification.
Is that true?

Yes, but "some" is not the word here. All states except Montana are
"At Will" states, and employees in Montana are firable "At Will" for
the first 12 months of employment.
Employees under contract - including union members - are subject to
the terms of the contract which may override the "At Will" aspect.
But, your sentence above needs an addition: "...so an employer may
fire someone, on the spot, without giving any reason or justification
as long as the reason isn't illegal."
...Discrimination based on race, sex, age, nation of origin,
disability, or genetic information
...Retaliation for reporting illegal or unsafe workplace practices
...Refusing to conduct illegal activities
As a former employer of large staff,

Well that's America for you!

Post by Tony Cooper
I can attest that an "At Will"
firing can be a tricky business. I had a gay male employee that I
wanted to fire because of excessive absences and disruptive behavior
in the office (He frequently engaged in screaming phone arguments with
his partners). When he was at work, and not on the phone with a
partner, he was quite good at his job. It just got too much, though.
My lawyer advised me to document his absences and disruptive behavior
by sending him memos at each instance and building a file else he
could sue based on discrimination. I accumulated two months of such
memos before firing him. He did engage an attorney, but presented
with the file his attorney backed off.

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by micky

[...] These days the bigger companies have moved on to a different
approach. They don't have employees, they have contractors supplied by
labour hire firms. It's easier to sack a contractor, and you don't have to
pay them as well.

When I worked at Bethlehem Steel Corp, I was a contractor as a computer
programmer. I was there for years. I'm not sure why they used
contractors.

Probably they balked at the idea of funding a pension at the level of what they
were paying computer programmers (and if it was a union shop they would have
had to have done this).

Post by micky
They also had employees, some of whom (most of whom?) had
been mill employees who learned the new trade after they became
"redundant" in the mill because of mechanization. I don't want to call
it partial automation because things were still initiated manually. I
think the Continuous Caster made some jobs unnecessary. Or maybe it was
because one of the mills was closed entirely
Yes, no problem firing a contractor. Tell his boss and he's out by the
next morning, but I only know of one time they did that of our group of
about 20, and afaict, he fully deserved it. Wouldn't do what he was
told, wanted to do something else. Oh, yes, my own contracting company
fired me, but the client (Beth Steel) arranged for me to work for
another small contracting company before I even knew I'd been fired. I
think I was his only employee.

That’s a very unusual dynamic!

[Janet]

Post by micky
In alt.usage.english, on Sat, 31 Aug 2024 10:03:05 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
Drifting a bit...we often see "made redundant" used in the UK to
mean a person is no longer employed by the organization. That
suggests to us that the person is no longer needed because the job no
longer needs doing, the organization is reducing their payroll, or
there are others who do the same job.
Yet, it seems to include being removed from the job for any
non-criminal reason. It seems that being incompetant is grounds for
being made redundant...a polite way of saying the person was sacked.

In UK, Redundancy is the end of employment but very
different from being sacked. "I was made redundant"
carries no stigma in future employment applications

Redundancy carries national legislated requirements and
obligations for the employer, and legislated rights and
entitlements for the employee, which can include
redundancy pay.

There is a legislated minimum rate of redundancy pay, but
some organisations offer far more than minimum. A huge
lump sum or pension enhancement that can make accepting
redundancy highly attractive.

https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-rights

https://redmans.co.uk/insights/enhanced-redundancy-
payments-when-do-you-have-a-right-to-receive-an-enhanced-
redundancy-payment/

Janet

[Peter Moylan]

Post by micky
When I worked at Bethlehem Steel Corp, I was a contractor as a
computer programmer. I was there for years. I'm not sure why they
used contractors. They also had employees, some of whom (most of
whom?) had been mill employees who learned the new trade after they
became "redundant" in the mill because of mechanization. I don't
want to call it partial automation because things were still
initiated manually. I think the Continuous Caster made some jobs
unnecessary. Or maybe it was because one of the mills was closed
entirely

Topic drift: before we had a Computer Science degree, our university
introduced a postgraduate Diploma in Computer Science. At the time the
steel mill was the biggest employer in the city, and their entire
computer department -- somewhere between 10-20 people -- was sent over
to do the diploma. Apparently their managers weren't very good at
judging competence. It was obvious to me in classes that there was just
one competent programmer in the group, and he was in effect doing
everyone else's work. They would screw up a project, and he stepped in
to fix it.

A couple of years later he accepted a position in another state, and
with his departure the whole group collapsed.

Back to the main topic. As a university lecturer I had tenure, and at
the time tenure was a very strong guarantee. It was rumoured that the
only thing that could get you sacked was raping the Vice-Chancellor's
wife on the library steps in front of a crowd. Eventually, though, the
collegiate style of governance was replaced by managerialism, and now
and then there was a mass sacking as a budget-saving measure; academic
departments had to be trimmed down to compensate for growth in the
management sections. I was finally caught in a purge where a full
quarter of the staff had to go.

For political and legal reasons this had to be done by voluntary
redundancy. It was obvious to everyone that there was a secret list of
those to be dismissed. The only way to find out if you were on the list
was to apply for voluntary redundancy. If you weren't on the list, your
application was knocked back. It took about a year before the last
hold-outs were pressured into voluntary redundancy.

After retirement I worked for an R&D company as a part-time casual, with
zero job security. By then, though, that was OK with me. I had reached
the age where working half-time was an attractive option.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
Drifting a bit...we often see "made redundant" used in the UK to
mean a person is no longer employed by the organization.  That
suggests to us that the person is no longer needed because the job no
longer needs doing, the organization is reducing their payroll, or
there are others who do the same job.
Yet, it seems to include being removed from the job for any
non-criminal reason.  It seems that being incompetant is grounds for
being made redundant...a polite way of saying the person was sacked.

At least in Australia, there is a legal aspect to this. There are, or
were, unfair dismissal laws that meant you couldn't just sack someone on
a whim. There had to be good grounds. One way around this was to declare
the position redundant. I think that meant that the employer had to wait
a year before refilling the position, but a workaround was to create a
new position whose description was subtly different.
In the popular mind, then, redundancy was seen as a euphemism to
describe just about any way of getting rid of workers.
These days the bigger companies have moved on to a different approach.
They don't have employees, they have contractors supplied by labour hire
firms. It's easier to sack a contractor, and you don't have to pay them
as well.

Interesting. I just found out that my car dealer has mechanics that are
not paid a salary, but rather are paid by the job.

Many years ago, while working for IBM as a final test technician in the
factory, I added to my income by fixing car radios. I was paid for each
radio I repaired. At that time, that sort of job/salary arrangement was
known as 'piecework'.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
Drifting a bit...we often see "made redundant" used in the UK to
mean a person is no longer employed by the organization.  That
suggests to us that the person is no longer needed because the job no
longer needs doing, the organization is reducing their payroll, or
there are others who do the same job.
Yet, it seems to include being removed from the job for any
non-criminal reason.  It seems that being incompetant is grounds for
being made redundant...a polite way of saying the person was sacked.

At least in Australia, there is a legal aspect to this. There are, or
were, unfair dismissal laws that meant you couldn't just sack someone on
a whim. There had to be good grounds. One way around this was to declare
the position redundant. I think that meant that the employer had to wait
a year before refilling the position, but a workaround was to create a
new position whose description was subtly different.
In the popular mind, then, redundancy was seen as a euphemism to
describe just about any way of getting rid of workers.
These days the bigger companies have moved on to a different approach.
They don't have employees, they have contractors supplied by labour hire
firms. It's easier to sack a contractor, and you don't have to pay them
as well.

Interesting. I just found out that my car dealer has mechanics that are
not paid a salary, but rather are paid by the job.

Many US companies employ some people as "independent contractors" to
avoid offering them employee benefits and collecting payroll taxes
from them. The independent contractor is provided with a 1099 and
expected to file their taxes based on that.

A company, though, cannot set the working hours or the schedules for
those people. If the company does, the IRS can fine the company for
not collecting payroll taxes. In the eyes of the IRS, if the company
has control over the hours and scheduling, the person is an employee.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper
Many US companies employ some people as "independent contractors" to
avoid offering them employee benefits and collecting payroll taxes
from them. The independent contractor is provided with a 1099 and
expected to file their taxes based on that.
A company, though, cannot set the working hours or the schedules for
those people. If the company does, the IRS can fine the company
for not collecting payroll taxes. In the eyes of the IRS, if the
company has control over the hours and scheduling, the person is an
employee.

That would be a rule worth introducing here.

One thing the Australian government did bring into law, a year or so
ago, was to say that if a casual worker had worked full-time for a year,
that worker would have the right to be reclassified as a full-time
employee. In the case of mine workers, that would mean a significant
increase in pay. (It was abuses in the mining industry that motivated
the new law.) For just about anyone, it would bring a right for annual
leave, sick leave, and a few other benefits.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
Many US companies employ some people as "independent contractors" to
avoid offering them employee benefits and collecting payroll taxes
from them.  The independent contractor is provided with a 1099 and
expected to file their taxes based on that.
A company, though, cannot set the working hours or the schedules for
those people.   If the company does, the IRS can fine the company
for not collecting payroll taxes.  In the eyes of the IRS, if the
company has control over the hours and scheduling, the person is an
employee.

That would be a rule worth introducing here.
One thing the Australian government did bring into law, a year or so
ago, was to say that if a casual worker had worked full-time for a year,
that worker would have the right to be reclassified as a full-time
employee. <snip>

I'm very out of date on employment legislation here in the UK, but back
when I was working as a contractor, there was a similar arrangement but
the timescale (IIRC) was 18 months.
Several companies would routinely 'employ' contract workers, only to get
rid of each one as they approached that 18 month mark.

[Rich Ulrich]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
Many US companies employ some people as "independent contractors" to
avoid offering them employee benefits and collecting payroll taxes
from them.  The independent contractor is provided with a 1099 and
expected to file their taxes based on that.
A company, though, cannot set the working hours or the schedules for
those people.   If the company does, the IRS can fine the company
for not collecting payroll taxes.  In the eyes of the IRS, if the
company has control over the hours and scheduling, the person is an
employee.

That would be a rule worth introducing here.
One thing the Australian government did bring into law, a year or so
ago, was to say that if a casual worker had worked full-time for a year,
that worker would have the right to be reclassified as a full-time
employee. <snip>

I'm very out of date on employment legislation here in the UK, but back
when I was working as a contractor, there was a similar arrangement but
the timescale (IIRC) was 18 months.
Several companies would routinely 'employ' contract workers, only to get
rid of each one as they approached that 18 month mark.

That reminds me of a version of the same thing, which I expect has
been controlled for a long time. When I started working at Pitt, my
pension immediately gained contributions, but I was not *vested*
(IIRC) until I passed 6 months of employment. That meant, I had
no rights to anything unless I lasted that long. That's okay, a decent
control, so they don't have to do bookkeeping forever on folks who
did not work out.

The abuse I heard of was for employees to need to work for 10
or 20 years before becoming vested, and the feral capitalists
regularly fired the workers a few months short of that. That almost
seems too vicious to be real, but I remind myself of work-safety
scandals, other viciousness that is well-documented.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Rich Ulrich

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
Many US companies employ some people as "independent contractors" to
avoid offering them employee benefits and collecting payroll taxes
from them.  The independent contractor is provided with a 1099 and
expected to file their taxes based on that.
A company, though, cannot set the working hours or the schedules for
those people.   If the company does, the IRS can fine the company
for not collecting payroll taxes.  In the eyes of the IRS, if the
company has control over the hours and scheduling, the person is an
employee.

That would be a rule worth introducing here.
One thing the Australian government did bring into law, a year or so
ago, was to say that if a casual worker had worked full-time for a year,
that worker would have the right to be reclassified as a full-time
employee. <snip>

I'm very out of date on employment legislation here in the UK, but back
when I was working as a contractor, there was a similar arrangement but
the timescale (IIRC) was 18 months.
Several companies would routinely 'employ' contract workers, only to get
rid of each one as they approached that 18 month mark.

That reminds me of a version of the same thing, which I expect has
been controlled for a long time. When I started working at Pitt, my
pension immediately gained contributions, but I was not *vested*
(IIRC) until I passed 6 months of employment. That meant, I had
no rights to anything unless I lasted that long. That's okay, a decent
control, so they don't have to do bookkeeping forever on folks who
did not work out.
The abuse I heard of was for employees to need to work for 10
or 20 years before becoming vested, and the feral capitalists
regularly fired the workers a few months short of that. That almost
seems too vicious to be real, but I remind myself of work-safety
scandals, other viciousness that is well-documented.

An organisation will expect its purchasing department to source
materials, to the required standards, at the lowest cost.
HR is just a specialised type of purchasing department.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Rich Ulrich
The abuse I heard of was for employees to need to work for 10
or 20 years before becoming vested, and the feral capitalists
regularly fired the workers a few months short of that. That almost
seems too vicious to be real, but I remind myself of work-safety
scandals, other viciousness that is well-documented.

An organisation will expect its purchasing department to source
materials, to the required standards, at the lowest cost.
HR is just a specialised type of purchasing department.

And that's been true ever since employees have been called "resources".

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Sam Plusnet
An organisation will expect its purchasing department to source
materials, to the required standards, at the lowest cost.
HR is just a specialised type of purchasing department.

And that's been true ever since employees have been called "resources".

For about the last 50 years, I think. I remember how shocked I was
when I first say an ad for a "Human Resources" something or other for
what I thought of as a "Personnel Manager".

I've just watched a tv program about the nazi economy. To the nazis
humans definitely was a resource, and that was 80 years ago.

"Was" was a deliberate choice. Do others think that it is wrong?

[Chris Elvidge]

[...] (I still would have had an adequate retirement income, if I
hadn't made the mistake of getting a divorce a couple of years
later.)

Was the mistake the divorce, or was it the marriage?

Good question. I guess you could say that the divorce corrected a
mistake made 25 years earlier. It was an expensive correction, though.

I had the luck to go into my first (and so far only) marriage with € 112,000 of
debt and the long waiting period for the actual divorce meant I could redirect
my spending, once that was paid off, into things I couldn’t lose (further
education among other things). Still expensive.

Idle question: why is this month called Méan Fómhair? Were September and
October once parts of one very long month?

“Fómhar” is autumn (harvest, cf German Herbst, the usual word there for
autumn), so the middle of autumn. I was raised with the idea that autumn was
August, September, October but on looking now Met Éireann defines it as
September, October, November.

Does it have any relation to the French Revolutionary calendar month of
"Frimaire"? (from the French for frost, c21 November)

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Chris Elvidge

“Fómhar” is autumn (harvest, cf German Herbst, the usual word there for
autumn), so the middle of autumn. I was raised with the idea that autumn
was August, September, October but on looking now Met Éireann defines it
as September, October, November.

Does it have any relation to the French Revolutionary calendar month of
"Frimaire"? (from the French for frost, c21 November)

MacBain’s etymological dictionary (of Scots Gaelic) says the following:

<foghar>, harvest, Ir. [fóghmhar], M.Ir. [fogamur], autumn, E.Ir.
[fogamur], [fogomur], last month of autumn: [*fo-gamur], the
[gamur] being from the root of [geamhradh], winter, q.v. The
idea is "sub hiemem". Cf. W. [cynauaf], harvest, O.W.
[kynnhaeaf], from [cyn], before, and [gauaf], winter.

Not intuitively obvious to me, but Irish etymology is often not intuitively
obvious. “Faoi” remains the modern Irish preposition for “underneath.”
« Frimas » appears to be from Germanic.

[lar3ryca]

Idle question: why is this month called Méan Fómhair? Were
September and October once parts of one very long month?

“Fómhar” is autumn (harvest, cf German Herbst, the usual word there
for autumn), so the middle of autumn. I was raised with the idea
that autumn was August, September, October but on looking now Met
Éireann defines it as September, October, November.

Thanks. That makes sense, although I have trouble thinking of September
as mid-Autumn. Australia defines Spring as September, October, November.
Those are calendar dates, i.e. Spring started on the first of September.
I see that many northern hemisphere countries use the solstice and
equinox as the transition dates, but there's logic to that, When you're
up so close the North Pole, there's a time lag in the seasons compared
to what the sub-tropics experience.
Of course global warming has changed everything. Officially the seasons
might each be three months long, but in my location the real seasons go
    Spring:       Aug Sep
    Summer:   Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar
    Autumn:    Apr May
    Winter:      Jun Jul
Our bushfire season started in what was officially the last week of winter.

It is often said that in Regina, we have only two seaons:
Winter and Construction.

We are currently still in Construction. Today I had to go about a mile
out of my way to get to a store situated on a road that was being paved.

[Sam Plusnet]

Thanks. That makes sense, although I have trouble thinking of September
as mid-Autumn. Australia defines Spring as September, October, November.
Those are calendar dates, i.e. Spring started on the first of September.
I see that many northern hemisphere countries use the solstice and
equinox as the transition dates, but there's logic to that, When you're
up so close the North Pole, there's a time lag in the seasons compared
to what the sub-tropics experience.

I can confirm your observation. Here, only astronomers start Autumn on
the first of September. Normal people like me start it on the 21st or
22nd September.

Autumn, in my terms, starts when I see leaves on a certain tree in a
neighbour's garden start to turn.
Autumn is here.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Thu, 5 Sep 2024 01:08:13 +0100

Post by Sam Plusnet

Thanks. That makes sense, although I have trouble thinking of September
as mid-Autumn. Australia defines Spring as September, October, November.
Those are calendar dates, i.e. Spring started on the first of September.
I see that many northern hemisphere countries use the solstice and
equinox as the transition dates, but there's logic to that, When you're
up so close the North Pole, there's a time lag in the seasons compared
to what the sub-tropics experience.

I can confirm your observation. Here, only astronomers start Autumn on
the first of September. Normal people like me start it on the 21st or
22nd September.

Autumn, in my terms, starts when I see leaves on a certain tree in a
neighbour's garden start to turn.
Autumn is here.

Today has been very autumnal - yrs soaked of Sth Wales.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Thu, 5 Sep 2024 01:08:13 +0100

Post by Sam Plusnet

Thanks. That makes sense, although I have trouble thinking of September
as mid-Autumn. Australia defines Spring as September, October, November.
Those are calendar dates, i.e. Spring started on the first of September.
I see that many northern hemisphere countries use the solstice and
equinox as the transition dates, but there's logic to that, When you're
up so close the North Pole, there's a time lag in the seasons compared
to what the sub-tropics experience.

I can confirm your observation. Here, only astronomers start Autumn on
the first of September. Normal people like me start it on the 21st or
22nd September.

Autumn, in my terms, starts when I see leaves on a certain tree in a
neighbour's garden start to turn.
Autumn is here.

Today has been very autumnal - yrs soaked of Sth Wales.

Do watch your step when you are out walking.
The pavements can be leaf-full.

[Snidely]

Peter Moylan pounded on thar keyboard to tell us

In recent years this has fallen down. Those countries can't help one
another, because there's now a significant overlap between the northern
hemisphere and southern hemisphere fire seasons. We can't even borrow
the water-bombing planes.

Understand that the planes aren't any use without boots on the ground.
Their job is to slow the advance of the fire so that the dozers and
pick-and-shovels can do a proper containment line.

CalFire recently completed their first C-130 conversion to a permanent
fire tanker (the AF and ANG have modular adapters so that their C-130s
can be set up as fire tankers, but go back to cargo duty or such; there
are compromises in the modular system).

/dps

[Madhu]

“Fómhar” is autumn (harvest, cf German Herbst, the usual word there
for autumn), so the middle of autumn. I was raised with the idea
that autumn was August, September, October but on looking now Met
Éireann defines it as September, October, November.

Thanks. That makes sense, although I have trouble thinking of September
as mid-Autumn. Australia defines Spring as September, October, November.
Those are calendar dates, i.e. Spring started on the first of September.
I see that many northern hemisphere countries use the solstice and
equinox as the transition dates, but there's logic to that, When you're
up so close the North Pole, there's a time lag in the seasons compared
to what the sub-tropics experience.
Of course global warming has changed everything. Officially the seasons
might each be three months long, but in my location the real seasons go
Spring: Aug Sep
Summer: Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar
Autumn: Apr May
Winter: Jun Jul

I remember our 7th standard indian geography text delineated 4 periods

Ma-Ma (March May)
Ju-Se (June Sept)
Oc-No (Oct Nov)
De-Fe (Dec Feb)

Though I remember the mnemonics but not what the periods were supposed
to designate they cannot be conventional Admittedly the local seasons
were, the teachers were wont to say, "Hot, Hotter, Hottest." [7th
standard Geography mainly consisted of reproducing maps of india and
representing agricultural output on the regions ("millets")]

The Hindu (mostly Solar) Liturgical calendar our sect follows designates
6 seasons (ṛtau) of 2 months each, each month starting around the middle of the
gregorian calendar month. The english and gregorian names and are from
wikipedia "Hindu Calendar"

| Vasanta | Spring | Mid Mar - Mid May | Meṣa, Vṛṣabha |
| Grīṣma | Summer | Mid May – Mid Jul | Mithuna, Kaṭaka |
| Varṣā | Monsoon | Mid Jul – Mid Sep | Siṃha, Kanyā |
| Śarada | Autumn | Mid Sep – Mid Nov | Tulā, Vṛścika |
| Hemanta | Pre-Winter | Mid Nov - Mid Jan | Dhanu, Makara |
| Śiśira | Winter | Mid Jan – Mid Mar | Kumbha, Mīna |


Again for most parts of India these are "fictitious" but probably
weren't at the time when the month names and designations were adopted
from Babylonian astrology.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Madhu

“Fómhar” is autumn (harvest, cf German Herbst, the usual word there
for autumn), so the middle of autumn. I was raised with the idea
that autumn was August, September, October but on looking now Met
Éireann defines it as September, October, November.

Thanks. That makes sense, although I have trouble thinking of September
as mid-Autumn. Australia defines Spring as September, October, November.
Those are calendar dates, i.e. Spring started on the first of September.
I see that many northern hemisphere countries use the solstice and
equinox as the transition dates, but there's logic to that, When you're
up so close the North Pole, there's a time lag in the seasons compared
to what the sub-tropics experience.
Of course global warming has changed everything. Officially the seasons
might each be three months long, but in my location the real seasons go
Spring: Aug Sep
Summer: Oct Nov Dec Jan Feb Mar
Autumn: Apr May
Winter: Jun Jul

I remember our 7th standard indian geography text delineated 4 periods
Ma-Ma (March May)
Ju-Se (June Sept)
Oc-No (Oct Nov)
De-Fe (Dec Feb)
Though I remember the mnemonics but not what the periods were supposed
to designate they cannot be conventional Admittedly the local seasons
were, the teachers were wont to say, "Hot, Hotter, Hottest." [7th
standard Geography mainly consisted of reproducing maps of india and
representing agricultural output on the regions ("millets")]
The Hindu (mostly Solar) Liturgical calendar our sect follows designates
6 seasons (ṛtau) of 2 months each, each month starting around the middle of the
gregorian calendar month. The english and gregorian names and are from
wikipedia "Hindu Calendar"
| Vasanta | Spring | Mid Mar - Mid May | Meṣa, Vṛṣabha |
| Grīṣma | Summer | Mid May – Mid Jul | Mithuna, Kaṭaka |
| Varṣā | Monsoon | Mid Jul – Mid Sep | Siṃha, Kanyā |
| Śarada | Autumn | Mid Sep – Mid Nov | Tulā, Vṛścika |
| Hemanta | Pre-Winter | Mid Nov - Mid Jan | Dhanu, Makara |
| Śiśira | Winter | Mid Jan – Mid Mar | Kumbha, Mīna |
Again for most parts of India these are "fictitious" but probably
weren't at the time when the month names and designations were adopted
from Babylonian astrology.

It's hard to have sensible naming of seasons in a country with a large
north-south extent. For India, it would make more sense to divide the
country into climate zones.

In Australia's tropical north, there are just two seasons: wet and dry.

[Mike Spencer]

Thanks. That makes sense, although I have trouble thinking of September
as mid-Autumn. Australia defines Spring as September, October, November.
Those are calendar dates, i.e. Spring started on the first of September.
I see that many northern hemisphere countries use the solstice and
equinox as the transition dates, but there's logic to that, When you're
up so close the North Pole, there's a time lag in the seasons compared
to what the sub-tropics experience.

I can confirm your observation. Here, only astronomers start Autumn on
the first of September. Normal people like me start it on the 21st or
22nd September.

In Nova Scotia we (for very local values of "we") have six seasons:

Autumn -- Canadian Thanksgiving to late December. Gradual
transition from Heaven to Huddle (q.v., infra)

Solstice -- December 21 to Jan 4, sit by the fire, read books,
drink cider or single-malt, ignore world. Make fudge,
pralines and piggies [1], bake chocolate chip cookies,
ginger cake, chocolate pie. Swill espresso.

Huddle -- Jan 5 to mid-May. Ice, snow, rain, freezing rain,
blattering rain, mud, fog, black t'ick o' fog. Did I
mention cold rain? Ice-mousing season for the
cat. [2] Haul storm-wracked seaweed from beach to garden.

Spring -- Mid-May to end of June. Till and plant gardens, worry
about rain, of which there is either way too much or
way too little. Onset of blackflies, ticks and
mosquitoes. Worry about late frosts.

Hustle -- July and August. Tourists arrive. People's horrible
kids are released on probabtion from school to annoy
adults. Worry about tasks that have to get done in good
weather. Social calendar become crowded with events,
both of which require clean jeans.

Heaven -- Labor day to Canadian Thanksgiving (in October)
No bugs, no tourists, perfect weather, ripe tomatoes.
Too late to worry about warm weather tasks undone,
too early to worry about winter tasks yet to do.


[1] Piggies: Pecans, wrapped in caramel fondant, dipped in
semisweet chocolate.

[2] Ice-mousing: Like ice-fishing. The cat wanders around on the
crusty snow til he finds a promising hole, sits beside it and
waits for a mouse or a meadow vole to poke its nose up
through. Lunch.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Mike Spencer
[ … ]

My father was born in Nova Scotia (Sydney), but he never showed any
interest in going back, even for a visit.

Post by Mike Spencer
Autumn -- Canadian Thanksgiving to late December. Gradual
transition from Heaven to Huddle (q.v., infra)
Solstice -- December 21 to Jan 4, sit by the fire, read books,
drink cider or single-malt, ignore world. Make fudge,
pralines and piggies [1], bake chocolate chip cookies,
ginger cake, chocolate pie. Swill espresso.
Huddle -- Jan 5 to mid-May. Ice, snow, rain, freezing rain,
blattering rain, mud, fog, black t'ick o' fog. Did I
mention cold rain? Ice-mousing season for the
cat. [2] Haul storm-wracked seaweed from beach to garden.
Spring -- Mid-May to end of June. Till and plant gardens, worry
about rain, of which there is either way too much or
way too little. Onset of blackflies, ticks and
mosquitoes. Worry about late frosts.
Hustle -- July and August. Tourists arrive. People's horrible
kids are released on probabtion from school to annoy
adults. Worry about tasks that have to get done in good
weather. Social calendar become crowded with events,
both of which require clean jeans.
Heaven -- Labor day to Canadian Thanksgiving (in October)
No bugs, no tourists, perfect weather, ripe tomatoes.
Too late to worry about warm weather tasks undone,
too early to worry about winter tasks yet to do.
[1] Piggies: Pecans, wrapped in caramel fondant, dipped in
semisweet chocolate.
[2] Ice-mousing: Like ice-fishing. The cat wanders around on the
crusty snow til he finds a promising hole, sits beside it and
waits for a mouse or a meadow vole to poke its nose up
through. Lunch.

[Stefan Ram]

Thanks a bunch! I totally ate up your groovy rundown of the seasons.
It was a real trip.

[jerryfriedman]

Thanks. That makes sense, although I have trouble thinking of September
as mid-Autumn. Australia defines Spring as September, October, November.
Those are calendar dates, i.e. Spring started on the first of September.
I see that many northern hemisphere countries use the solstice and
equinox as the transition dates, but there's logic to that, When you're
up so close the North Pole, there's a time lag in the seasons compared
to what the sub-tropics experience.

I can confirm your observation. Here, only astronomers start Autumn on
the first of September. Normal people like me start it on the 21st or
22nd September.

..

The equinoxes and solstices are treated as "officially" the
beginnings of the seasons here in the U.S., but everywhere
I've lived, those dates are too late. I go with the fashion
definitions: summer starts on Memorial Day (last Monday
of May), fall starts on Labor Day (first Monday of
September), and winter starts on the day after Thanksgiving
(sometimes known as Black Friday--Thanksgiving is the
fourth Thursday in November). There's no convenient
holiday for the beginning of spring, so spring starts with
the first daffodil flower.

If you're far enough north, St. Patrick's Day might work
for the first day of spring, and if you're in some parts
Canada, your Thanksgiving might work as the first day
of winter, or might have till the last few decades.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

Post by jerryfriedman
The equinoxes and solstices are treated as "officially" the
beginnings of the seasons here in the U.S., but everywhere I've
summer starts on Memorial Day (last Monday of May), fall starts on
Labor Day (first Monday of September), and winter starts on the day
after Thanksgiving (sometimes known as Black Friday--Thanksgiving is
the fourth Thursday in November). There's no convenient holiday for
the beginning of spring, so spring starts with the first daffodil
flower.

The dates you have chosen are within a week of the month boundaries, so
why not just go with the month boundaries?

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by jerryfriedman
The equinoxes and solstices are treated as "officially" the
beginnings of the seasons here in the U.S., but everywhere I've
summer starts on Memorial Day (last Monday of May), fall starts on
Labor Day (first Monday of September), and winter starts on the day
after Thanksgiving (sometimes known as Black Friday--Thanksgiving is
the fourth Thursday in November). There's no convenient holiday for
the beginning of spring, so spring starts with the first daffodil
flower.

The dates you have chosen are within a week of the month boundaries, so
why not just go with the month boundaries?

Tradition (now mostly forgotten).

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Sam Plusnet
An organisation will expect its purchasing department to source
materials, to the required standards, at the lowest cost.
HR is just a specialised type of purchasing department.

And that's been true ever since employees have been called "resources".

For about the last 50 years, I think. I remember how shocked I was
when I first say an ad for a "Human Resources" something or other for
what I thought of as a "Personnel Manager".

[Sam Plusnet]

..

Post by Sam Plusnet
An organisation will expect its purchasing department to source
materials, to the required standards, at the lowest cost.
HR is just a specialised type of purchasing department.

Recently I've seen "human capital" a few times.  That's
no less revealing about how employers think of
employees.  But the terms may serve to remind employers
that human beings can actually be useful, so there are
limits to how badly you can treat them.

I doubt if many managers spend time thinking about what the "H" in HR
stands for.
However, if employees leave and you can't recruit replacements, you
might then have to make some adjustments.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by BéCé

Post by jerryfriedman
I wasn't sure what this headline meant till I glanced at the article,
partly because of a locution that was new to me.
Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya
https://www.riograndesun.com/news/sheriff-cross-commissions-fire-marshal-pablo-montoya/article_91ad8bf0-6610-11ef-8e78-435502feba57.html

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact

The problem arises from the fact that one meaning of "fire" is to
"discharge" ("sack") a person from a job.

And "cross-commissions" could be a plural noun, though it's
actually a singular verb.

Post by Tony Cooper
However, Montoya is a"Fire
Marshall", with "Fire Marshall" being a job title. "Marshall" is also
a job title in law enforcement.

"Marshal". "Marshall" is a name, but the possibility that "Marshal"
was a name added to my initial bafflement. "Marshal Pablo
Montoya" isn't /impossible/ as a name. However, that part of
my bafflement didn't last long, since I don't think you can make
sense of it as a name.

Post by Tony Cooper
Reading the headline/link, it is unclear if Montoya was removed from
his job as a Marshall, or Montoya was given extra responsibilities in
the fire department.
In this case, Montoya was commissioned to have extra responsibilities.
The "cross" aspect is that he now has responsibilities in both the
city and the country rather than just the city.

..

County, not country (for Bernard's benefit).

--
Jerry Friedman

[jerryfriedman]

On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 2:48:54 +0000, jerryfriedman wrote:
..

Post by jerryfriedman
"Marshall" is a name, but the possibility that "Marshal"
was a name added to my initial bafflement. "Marshal Pablo
Montoya" isn't /impossible/ as a name. However, that part of
my bafflement didn't last long, since I don't think you can make
sense of it as a name.

..

Of course you can.

[Hibou]

Post by BéCé

Post by jerryfriedman
I wasn't sure what this headline meant till I glanced at the article,
partly because of a locution that was new to me.
Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya
https://www.riograndesun.com/news/sheriff-cross-commissions-fire-marshal-pablo-montoya/article_91ad8bf0-6610-11ef-8e78-435502feba57.html

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact

(Bonjour, Bernard.)

I get the same message, even though I'm not in the EU and not in the EEA.

Not a reliable site, apparently.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Hibou

Post by BéCé
451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact

(Bonjour, Bernard.)
I get the same message, even though I'm not in the EU and not in the EEA.
Not a reliable site, apparently.

It's quite complicated to guess where an IP-number is located, and it
can't be done without errors. I tried once to set up a country check,
and I had to revise my tables every week.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou

Post by BéCé
451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact

(Bonjour, Bernard.)
I get the same message, even though I'm not in the EU and not in the EEA.
Not a reliable site, apparently.

It's quite complicated to guess where an IP-number is located, and it
can't be done without errors. I tried once to set up a country check,
and I had to revise my tables every week.

I get that message here in the UK.

[Hibou]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
[...]

Post by Hibou

Post by BéCé
451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact

(Bonjour, Bernard.)
I get the same message, even though I'm not in the EU and not in the EEA.
Not a reliable site, apparently.

It's quite complicated to guess where an IP-number is located, and it
can't be done without errors. I tried once to set up a country check,
and I had to revise my tables every week.

Well, perhaps I was a bit unfair - though if one is placing restrictions
on people, one should get it right.

I imagine there are look-up services that websites can employ... - yes,
here's one:

<https://www.iplocation.net/ip-lookup>

That correctly places me in the UK, though there are varying opinions
about which town I'm in - Salford, Manchester, Renfrew, Glasgow,
Edinburgh. Perhaps that reflects the history of the IP address I've been
allocated (it changes daily).

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Hibou
I imagine there are look-up services that websites can employ... -
<https://www.iplocation.net/ip-lookup>
That correctly places me in the UK, though there are varying
opinions about which town I'm in - Salford, Manchester, Renfrew,
Glasgow, Edinburgh. Perhaps that reflects the history of the IP
address I've been allocated (it changes daily).

That service gives several results for me (and no doubt for everyone).
Half the results place me in Sydney, and the other half say I'm in
Morwell, Victoria (a long way away from here). It looks as if my ISP has
headquarters in Morwell and a state office in Western Sydney.

Google Maps almost always opens in Western Sydney, because of Google's
opinion of my location.

A variable IP address can be a nuisance. I used to find myself regularly
blacklisted, presumably because my address had been allocated to a
spammer the day before. These days I pay my ISP $5/month extra for the
privilege of having a fixed IP address. That simplifies the management
of my internet server applications.

[Hibou]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Hibou
I imagine there are look-up services that websites can employ... -
<https://www.iplocation.net/ip-lookup>
That correctly places me in the UK, though there are varying
opinions about which town I'm in - Salford, Manchester, Renfrew,
Glasgow, Edinburgh. Perhaps that reflects the history of the IP
address I've been allocated (it changes daily).

That service gives several results for me (and no doubt for everyone).
Half the results place me in Sydney, and the other half say I'm in
Morwell, Victoria (a long way away from here). It looks as if my ISP has
headquarters in Morwell and a state office in Western Sydney.
Google Maps almost always opens in Western Sydney, because of Google's
opinion of my location.
A variable IP address can be a nuisance. I used to find myself regularly
blacklisted, presumably because my address had been allocated to a
spammer the day before. These days I pay my ISP $5/month extra for the
privilege of having a fixed IP address. That simplifies the management
of my internet server applications.

Yes, a fixed address is useful for servers (like mine chez AWS).
Otherwise I quite like a dynamic IP address, since I see it as
contributing to my privacy. I can't recall receiving one that was
blacklisted. I did have a few addresses incorrectly geoblocked a while
back, but disconnecting and reconnecting allocated a new one, so it was
only a minor inconvenience (and the website fixed the problem when I
reported it).

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Hibou

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Hibou
I imagine there are look-up services that websites can employ... -
<https://www.iplocation.net/ip-lookup>
That correctly places me in the UK, though there are varying
opinions about which town I'm in - Salford, Manchester, Renfrew,
Glasgow, Edinburgh. Perhaps that reflects the history of the IP
address I've been allocated (it changes daily).

That service gives several results for me (and no doubt for everyone).
Half the results place me in Sydney, and the other half say I'm in
Morwell, Victoria (a long way away from here). It looks as if my ISP has
headquarters in Morwell and a state office in Western Sydney.
Google Maps almost always opens in Western Sydney, because of Google's
opinion of my location.
A variable IP address can be a nuisance. I used to find myself regularly
blacklisted, presumably because my address had been allocated to a
spammer the day before. These days I pay my ISP $5/month extra for the
privilege of having a fixed IP address. That simplifies the management
of my internet server applications.

Yes, a fixed address is useful for servers (like mine chez AWS).
Otherwise I quite like a dynamic IP address, since I see it as
contributing to my privacy. I can't recall receiving one that was
blacklisted. I did have a few addresses incorrectly geoblocked a while
back, but disconnecting and reconnecting allocated a new one, so it was
only a minor inconvenience (and the website fixed the problem when I
reported it).

I don't have a fixed IP (although my router tells me my "up time" is 231
days, so it will not have changed during that period) and the idea of
inheriting an IP from a scammer hadn't occurred to me.
It would be somewhat like inheriting a phone number from a Take Away or
a Taxi service etc.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Hibou

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Hibou
I imagine there are look-up services that websites can employ... -
<https://www.iplocation.net/ip-lookup>
That correctly places me in the UK, though there are varying
opinions about which town I'm in - Salford, Manchester, Renfrew,
Glasgow, Edinburgh. Perhaps that reflects the history of the IP
address I've been allocated (it changes daily).

That service gives several results for me (and no doubt for everyone).
Half the results place me in Sydney, and the other half say I'm in
Morwell, Victoria (a long way away from here). It looks as if my ISP has
headquarters in Morwell and a state office in Western Sydney.
Google Maps almost always opens in Western Sydney, because of Google's
opinion of my location.
A variable IP address can be a nuisance. I used to find myself regularly
blacklisted, presumably because my address had been allocated to a
spammer the day before. These days I pay my ISP $5/month extra for the
privilege of having a fixed IP address. That simplifies the management
of my internet server applications.

Yes, a fixed address is useful for servers (like mine chez AWS).
Otherwise I quite like a dynamic IP address, since I see it as
contributing to my privacy. I can't recall receiving one that was
blacklisted. I did have a few addresses incorrectly geoblocked a while
back, but disconnecting and reconnecting allocated a new one, so it
was only a minor inconvenience (and the website fixed the problem when
I reported it).

I don't have a fixed IP (although my router tells me my "up time" is 231
days, so it will not have changed during that period) and the idea of
inheriting an IP from a scammer hadn't occurred to me.
It would be somewhat like inheriting a phone number from a Take Away or
a Taxi service etc.

When we moved from the farm to Regina in 2014, we got a new number. For
quite few years we got calls from folks speaking Arabic. At first I
didn't know what language it was, but eventually I asked.

For the first year or so , we got probably 7 or 8 calls per week. They
gradually decreased in frequency, and by 2020 they were down to about
1-2 per week. Sometime in 2023 they seemed to stop altogether, but just
a few weeks ago, I got one.

From the tome of the people calling, and some of the questions they
had, I surmised that the person owning the number before us owed money
to someone.

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 14:38:16 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

When living in London, my phone number was one (wrong) digit away from
that of British Gas Helpline. This was not a problem for me as I was
away at work during 'working hours'. However I would warn guests staying
over that they should expect these calls.
One evening I found a friend giving vague advice to an irate BGas
customer. He claimed he had put the caller 'on hold' while he made
himself a coffee.
Ever since then, I wince whenever I see customer (dis)satisfaction
stats. I wonder how many of the complaints are from real scenarios. For
example, when there was no one in my apartment during the day, if
someone called the helpline and waited for 10-15 minutes to get no
pick-up, that would have been an issue to complain about.

Didn't you consider setting up an answering machine?

I purchased my first answering machine in 1972. I was the Florida
representative for a national company, and worked out of my home.
Customers and my office called on my home phone.

A salesman for the answering machine company came to my house to sell
me the phone, installed it, and showed me how to use it. I forget the
price, but I think it was about $150...quite expensive in 1972.

I also purchased a "pager". If I got a business call on my home phone
when I was on the road, my wife would page me as my signal to call
home (from a pay phone) to get the message.

Had I kept those devices to show my grandchildren, they would be as
strange to them as a buggy whip or leech jar.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Tony Cooper
I also purchased a "pager". If I got a business call on my home phone
when I was on the road, my wife would page me as my signal to call
home (from a pay phone) to get the message.
Had I kept those devices to show my grandchildren, they would be as
strange to them as a buggy whip or leech jar.

I don't think answering machines are quite that obscure. Lots of
people who have land lines (I know that's not everyone!) also have
them.

ObAUE is "land line" AmE as well as BrE?

I had an alphanumeric pager until the dawn of the smartphone, but I
guess anyone who is still a child doesn't remember the pre-smartphone
era. (I still have an answering machine on my home phone, although
hardly anyone ever calls any more except for spammers. They're still
sold as part of "small business" phones, or at least they were a
decade ago when I got it.) We had "two-way" pagers that could send
email in addition to receiving text messages, but if something was
constantly re-sending an alert, there was no way (short of resolving
the condition) to tell it to shut up. Nowadays, of course, we just
use phone apps for alerting.

I watched the first few episodes of _30 Rock_ on a plane this
summer. Liz takes back her ex-boyfriend, "the Beeper King", who is the
last person left selling pagers in NYC. This was considered funny in
2006.

The international standard protocol for paging services was developed
by the British Post Office and is generally known as "POCSAG".

Interesting, I didn't know that.

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by Adam Funk
I don't think answering machines are quite that obscure. Lots of
people who have land lines (I know that's not everyone!) also have
them.

Not a lot of people have "land lines" any more, and most of those who
do have a voicemail service included in their "triple play" bundle.
Most of those who have such a bundle only have it because it was
cheaper than the Internet service alone. (And you can argue about
whether that even counts as a "land line" when some companies are
delivering the service over wireless and the rest are all VoIP, even
if you have a traditional copper POTS interface for a proper phone.)

My *parents* don't have one any more. The only reason *I* still do is
to have a number I don't answer to give out to potential spammers.
(Well, that and the fact that a Proper Phone handset is just more
comfortable to use than a tablet-shaped touch-screen phone.) I don't
think many people under 50 have what we'd recognize as a "home phone"
of any technology.

-GAWollman

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Adam Funk
I don't think answering machines are quite that obscure. Lots of
people who have land lines (I know that's not everyone!) also have
them.

Not a lot of people have "land lines" any more, and most of those who
do have a voicemail service included in their "triple play" bundle.
Most of those who have such a bundle only have it because it was
cheaper than the Internet service alone. (And you can argue about
whether that even counts as a "land line" when some companies are
delivering the service over wireless and the rest are all VoIP, even
if you have a traditional copper POTS interface for a proper phone.)
My *parents* don't have one any more. The only reason *I* still do is
to have a number I don't answer to give out to potential spammers.
(Well, that and the fact that a Proper Phone handset is just more
comfortable to use than a tablet-shaped touch-screen phone.) I don't
think many people under 50 have what we'd recognize as a "home phone"
of any technology.

In the UK, land lines are being phased out. Some areas have already
been shut down, with the last ones being discontinued by late 2025.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Adam Funk
I don't think answering machines are quite that obscure. Lots of
people who have land lines (I know that's not everyone!) also have
them.

Not a lot of people have "land lines" any more, and most of those who
do have a voicemail service included in their "triple play" bundle.
Most of those who have such a bundle only have it because it was
cheaper than the Internet service alone. (And you can argue about
whether that even counts as a "land line" when some companies are
delivering the service over wireless and the rest are all VoIP, even
if you have a traditional copper POTS interface for a proper phone.)
My *parents* don't have one any more. The only reason *I* still do is
to have a number I don't answer to give out to potential spammers.
(Well, that and the fact that a Proper Phone handset is just more
comfortable to use than a tablet-shaped touch-screen phone.) I don't
think many people under 50 have what we'd recognize as a "home phone"
of any technology.

In the UK, land lines are being phased out. Some areas have already
been shut down, with the last ones being discontinued by late 2025.

The date has been changed to late 2027! Somebody hadn't forseen all the
problems - and there are plenty. I've gone over since May - of my own
accord.

I suspect "somebody" had recognised, right from the start, that there
would be problems - but decided to kick it down the road for other
"somebodies" to sort out.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Adam Funk
I don't think answering machines are quite that obscure. Lots of
people who have land lines (I know that's not everyone!) also have
them.

Not a lot of people have "land lines" any more, and most of those who
do have a voicemail service included in their "triple play" bundle.
Most of those who have such a bundle only have it because it was
cheaper than the Internet service alone. (And you can argue about
whether that even counts as a "land line" when some companies are
delivering the service over wireless and the rest are all VoIP, even
if you have a traditional copper POTS interface for a proper phone.)
My *parents* don't have one any more. The only reason *I* still do is
to have a number I don't answer to give out to potential spammers.
(Well, that and the fact that a Proper Phone handset is just more
comfortable to use than a tablet-shaped touch-screen phone.) I don't
think many people under 50 have what we'd recognize as a "home phone"
of any technology.

In the UK, land lines are being phased out. Some areas have already
been shut down, with the last ones being discontinued by late 2025.

The date has been changed to late 2027! Somebody hadn't forseen all the
problems - and there are plenty. I've gone over since May - of my own
accord.

I suspect "somebody" had recognised, right from the start, that there
would be problems - but decided to kick it down the road for other
"somebodies" to sort out.

That's usually how these things work.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Adam Funk
I don't think answering machines are quite that obscure. Lots of
people who have land lines (I know that's not everyone!) also have
them.

Not a lot of people have "land lines" any more, and most of those who
do have a voicemail service included in their "triple play" bundle.
Most of those who have such a bundle only have it because it was
cheaper than the Internet service alone. (And you can argue about
whether that even counts as a "land line" when some companies are
delivering the service over wireless and the rest are all VoIP, even
if you have a traditional copper POTS interface for a proper phone.)
My *parents* don't have one any more. The only reason *I* still do is
to have a number I don't answer to give out to potential spammers.
(Well, that and the fact that a Proper Phone handset is just more
comfortable to use than a tablet-shaped touch-screen phone.) I don't
think many people under 50 have what we'd recognize as a "home phone"
of any technology.

We have one mainly because of the bundle, but also for the nuisance
calls.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Tony Cooper
I also purchased a "pager". If I got a business call on my home phone
when I was on the road, my wife would page me as my signal to call
home (from a pay phone) to get the message.
Had I kept those devices to show my grandchildren, they would be as
strange to them as a buggy whip or leech jar.

I don't think answering machines are quite that obscure. Lots of
people who have land lines (I know that's not everyone!) also have
them.
ObAUE is "land line" AmE as well as BrE?

Yes. The common description in the US.

The answering machine that I purchased was a separate device from the
handset, and that recorded on one of two mini cassettes. The most
common answering machine in the US now is a set where the message is
recorded in the base on some non-removable internal part, and a
wireless handset is charged on that base.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Wed, 04 Sep 2024 13:07:07 -0400

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Tony Cooper
I also purchased a "pager". If I got a business call on my home phone
when I was on the road, my wife would page me as my signal to call
home (from a pay phone) to get the message.
Had I kept those devices to show my grandchildren, they would be as
strange to them as a buggy whip or leech jar.

I don't think answering machines are quite that obscure. Lots of
people who have land lines (I know that's not everyone!) also have
them.
ObAUE is "land line" AmE as well as BrE?

Yes. The common description in the US.
The answering machine that I purchased was a separate device from the
handset, and that recorded on one of two mini cassettes. The most

I think I have such a device (i.e. it's lost in the attic/loft) - but even
earlier - two cassettes ('compact', not mini), one to play the "You have
reached Blogs and co but we can't be bothered to get to the phone right
now, please leave a message after the tone"" (outgoing) message, and the
other to record the callers "but you b*** never ring me back". A light on
the device would flash n times, once per message. There were 2 dials; one
to select record msg/ playback/erase? the other for volume. Maybe it has
piano keys as per standard cassette recorders of the day.

Post by Tony Cooper
common answering machine in the US now is a set where the message is
recorded in the base on some non-removable internal part, and a
wireless handset is charged on that base.

Or use "voicemail"

[Garrett Wollman]

Yes, one cassette was the message a caller heard and the other
recorded the caller's message. I remembered there were two cassettes,
but not what they were for.

There was an intermediate stage, when nonvolatile semiconductor
memories were still fairly expensive, with the outgoing message
recorded digitally on a chip and the incoming messages still recorded
on analog tape. I had one of these about 30 years ago.

-GAWollman

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Wed, 04 Sep 2024 13:07:07 -0400

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Tony Cooper
I also purchased a "pager". If I got a business call on my home phone
when I was on the road, my wife would page me as my signal to call
home (from a pay phone) to get the message.
Had I kept those devices to show my grandchildren, they would be as
strange to them as a buggy whip or leech jar.

I don't think answering machines are quite that obscure. Lots of
people who have land lines (I know that's not everyone!) also have
them.
ObAUE is "land line" AmE as well as BrE?

Yes. The common description in the US.
The answering machine that I purchased was a separate device from the
handset, and that recorded on one of two mini cassettes. The most

I think I have such a device (i.e. it's lost in the attic/loft) - but even
earlier - two cassettes ('compact', not mini), one to play the "You have
reached Blogs and co but we can't be bothered to get to the phone right
now, please leave a message after the tone"" (outgoing) message, and the
other to record the callers "but you b*** never ring me back". A light on
the device would flash n times, once per message. There were 2 dials; one
to select record msg/ playback/erase? the other for volume. Maybe it has
piano keys as per standard cassette recorders of the day.

Yes, one cassette was the message a caller heard and the other
recorded the caller's message. I remembered there were two cassettes,
but not what they were for.

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John

Post by Tony Cooper
common answering machine in the US now is a set where the message is
recorded in the base on some non-removable internal part, and a
wireless handset is charged on that base.

I would like to see an answering machine that works on the gsm network
i.e. one with a sim that only takes calls.
(If already available, please tell me.)
You can easily forward gsm calls to another number if not answered or
out of reach, or indeed all calls.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unstructured_Supplementary_Service_Data

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Or use "voicemail"

Voicemail (supplier supplied answering "machine") is too easily hacked.

[Snidely]

Post by Tony Cooper
The most
common answering machine in the US now is a set where the message is
recorded in the base on some non-removable internal part, and a
wireless handset is charged on that base.

Non-removable as in "soldered in", methinks. May or may not be a
separate chip from the one that handles all the logic; SoC's are pretty
feature-rich these days.

/dps "no, no jargon there. Just silicon"

[Tony Cooper]

On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 18:33:01 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Had I kept those devices to show my grandchildren, they would be as
strange to them as a buggy whip or leech jar.

Wouldn't they understand at least the function of an answering machise?
When I get an account at a mobile company, it's set up with an automatic
answering service (which I disable).

Of course they would, just as I - at their age - could understand the
function of a washboard.

[charles]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 18:33:01 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Had I kept those devices to show my grandchildren, they would be as
strange to them as a buggy whip or leech jar.

Wouldn't they understand at least the function of an answering machise?
When I get an account at a mobile company, it's set up with an automatic
answering service (which I disable).

Of course they would, just as I - at their age - could understand the
function of a washboard.

It was for playing in s skiffle group.

(actually, my mother had one)

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Tony Cooper
Of course they would, just as I - at their age - could understand the
function of a washboard.

My mother used one of those. She didn't get a washing machine until I
was about 16.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Of course they would, just as I - at their age - could understand
the function of a washboard.

My mother used one of those. She didn't get a washing machine until
I was about 16.

We had a "copper": a metal tub with a gas flame underneath. Once the
water was boiling the clothes had to be moved around with a wooden stick.
I was fascinated by that stick. When wood is frequently in boiling water
it gets a funny appearance.
Eventually we got one of those machines that Tony mentioned, complete
with a wringer that could catch your fingers. I think my parents got an
automatic washing machine after I had left home.

Wringer! I just couldn't think of the term when I wrote about the
rollers.

The machine was similar to this one:

Loading Image...

It was in the basement, so no sink available. When it drained, the
water flowed out of a port on the bottom of the machine, so my mother
had to unplug it and move it over to the center of the basement
directly above the drain. It was fitted with casters.

On washdays, my mother had to connect a garden hose to an outside
spigot and run it through the coal chute door to provide water to the
machine.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

When items were taken out of the washing machine, she ran them through
a set of rollers on an arm that swung out over the machine. The
rollers squeezed out the excess water. More than once she caught her
fingers in the rollers.

We didn't have one of those, but there was a large one in toilet shed at
my grandparents'. They didn't use it because it would crush the buttons
on the shirts.

We didn't have a dryer, so clothes were pegged on a clothesline to
dry. In inclement weather, the clothesline was strung in basement.

So did everyone back then in my childhood. Even in freezing temperatures
the clothes would dry, only slower. They were stiff when they were taken
in, so we had to be careful not to break them.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

We had a "copper": a metal tub with a gas flame underneath. Once the
water was boiling the clothes had to be moved around with a wooden stick.

We had a large tub build into the wall in the basement. It was heated
underneath with burning wood. My mother also had a stick. The house
belonged to the paper factory where my father worked, so he had them
build two water tubs next to the heated one.

I was fascinated by that stick. When wood is frequently in boiling water
it gets a funny appearance.

I don't remember being fascinated, but I do remember the stick. It
looked like a large ladle.

Deepl scored better than Google translate. The latter suggested
"saucepan" as a tranlation of "grydeske" (pot-spoon). Deepl was spot on.

After my first marriage broke down I had to get cheap second-hand
appliances, so I got a twin-tub washing maching. One side was for
washing, the other for spinning. It was very labour-intensive. Doing the
week's wash took the whole of Saturday morning. I couldn't leave the
machine because of having to move things between tubs all the time. I'll
never get one of those again.

How is that different from my present setup? I have a washing machine
and a tumbler dryer on top of it.

I never use the tumbler dryer. It's nice to have as a back up, but I
prefer to hang the clothes in fresh air (on my terrace under roof).

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

After my first marriage broke down I had to get cheap second-hand
appliances, so I got a twin-tub washing maching. One side was for
washing, the other for spinning. It was very labour-intensive.
Doing the week's wash took the whole of Saturday morning. I
couldn't leave the machine because of having to move things
between tubs all the time. I'll never get one of those again.

How is that different from my present setup? I have a washing machine
and a tumbler dryer on top of it.
I never use the tumbler dryer. It's nice to have as a back up, but I
prefer to hang the clothes in fresh air (on my terrace under roof).

We too have a tumbler dryer, but we rarely use it. The clothes normally
go out on the line.

The thing about the twin-tub machine was that the main tub was small.
Even a normal week's wash for one person came to four or five loads. You
started washing one tub full. Then you moved that load into the spinner,
and span it while running the second load. Next, you ran the stuff from
the spinner out to the clothes line, and raced to move the second load
into the spinner and start the third load.

The point of the two sections was that you span one load while washing
the next, so you made a production line out of it. It's efficient in
some ways, but it keeps you busy for a long time.

Apparently they're still being made. Here's a modern example.

https://lenoxx.com.au/products/portable-twin-tub-washing-machine-with-rinse-and-self-drain-function?srsltid=AfmBOoq1Kwl2hYSjk4Dws2bh8EY5KQ6PbuMJ4hJ9R1S4uj_AgdMgL6br

Mine was a bit less elegant. I see in the description a detail I'd
forgotten. The second tub was for rinsing as well as spinning.

[Janet]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

After my first marriage broke down I had to get cheap second-hand
appliances, so I got a twin-tub washing maching. One side was for
washing, the other for spinning. It was very labour-intensive.
Doing the week's wash took the whole of Saturday morning. I
couldn't leave the machine because of having to move things
between tubs all the time. I'll never get one of those again.

How is that different from my present setup? I have a washing machine
and a tumbler dryer on top of it.
I never use the tumbler dryer. It's nice to have as a back up, but I
prefer to hang the clothes in fresh air (on my terrace under roof).

We too have a tumbler dryer, but we rarely use it. The clothes normally
go out on the line.
The thing about the twin-tub machine was that the main tub was small.
Even a normal week's wash for one person came to four or five loads. You
started washing one tub full. Then you moved that load into the spinner,
and span it while running the second load. Next, you ran the stuff from
the spinner out to the clothes line, and raced to move the second load
into the spinner and start the third load.

You forgot to rinse the soap and dirty water from your
washed laundry, with clean water. Now you'll have to get
it back in off the washing line and do the whole lot
again.

The good news with twin tubs, was, you could do several
consecutive washes in the same tub of soapy water (until
it was really filthy).>

Janet

Post by Peter Moylan
The point of the two sections was that you span one load while washing
the next, so you made a production line out of it. It's efficient in
some ways, but it keeps you busy for a long time.
Apparently they're still being made. Here's a modern example.
https://lenoxx.com.au/products/portable-twin-tub-washing-machine-with-rinse-and-self-drain-function?srsltid=AfmBOoq1Kwl2hYSjk4Dws2bh8EY5KQ6PbuMJ4hJ9R1S4uj_AgdMgL6br
Mine was a bit less elegant. I see in the description a detail I'd
forgotten. The second tub was for rinsing as well as spinning.

Janet

[Janet]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

We had a "copper": a metal tub with a gas flame underneath. Once the
water was boiling the clothes had to be moved around with a wooden stick.

We had a large tub build into the wall in the basement. It was heated
underneath with burning wood. My mother also had a stick. The house
belonged to the paper factory where my father worked, so he had them
build two water tubs next to the heated one.

I was fascinated by that stick. When wood is frequently in boiling water
it gets a funny appearance.

I don't remember being fascinated, but I do remember the stick. It
looked like a large ladle.
Deepl scored better than Google translate. The latter suggested
"saucepan" as a tranlation of "grydeske" (pot-spoon). Deepl was spot on.

After my first marriage broke down I had to get cheap second-hand
appliances, so I got a twin-tub washing maching. One side was for
washing, the other for spinning. It was very labour-intensive. Doing the
week's wash took the whole of Saturday morning. I couldn't leave the
machine because of having to move things between tubs all the time. I'll
never get one of those again.

How is that different from my present setup? I have a washing machine
and a tumbler dryer on top of it.

With a fully automatic washer, you put in dirty
washing, set a program, push a button, and walk away. the
machine fills with water, heats it, washes the laundry,
rinses it twice then spins it then stops. Mine beeps to
tell the laundry is ready to be put in the dryer. Then it
turns itself off.
Or it can send a message to my phone (never used that).


THe twin tub required the operator to turn on the water
at source (a tap), fill machine, wait till water was
heated, activate washing, stop machine. Then they had to
haul the soaking wet heavy laundry over into the spinner,
spin out the soapy water, run in clean water, rinse the
laundry, spin it, repeat. Empty the dirty water from the
washing sections. None of that was an automated program.

Janet

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by Janet
With a fully automatic washer, you put in dirty
washing, set a program, push a button, and walk away. the
machine fills with water, heats it,

One of those transpondial cultural differences that any American would
be caught short by -- because we have a centralized piece of equipment
for heating water; the individual appliances don't do it for
themselves.

-GAWollman
(who was particularly shocked by his Finnish hosts practically boiling
the sheets in their tiny little washing machine in the downstairs
bathroom)

[Janet]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Janet
With a fully automatic washer, you put in dirty
washing, set a program, push a button, and walk away. the
machine fills with water, heats it,

One of those transpondial cultural differences that any American would
be caught short by -- because we have a centralized piece of equipment
for heating water; the individual appliances don't do it for
themselves.

In UK, we do have a centralised piece of equipment for
heating water (and used to be able to run the WM from it)
but for some years past, most new washing machines have
been cold-fill only.

Janet

Post by Garrett Wollman
-GAWollman
(who was particularly shocked by his Finnish hosts practically boiling
the sheets in their tiny little washing machine in the downstairs
bathroom)

[Adam Funk]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Of course they would, just as I - at their age - could understand
the function of a washboard.

My mother used one of those. She didn't get a washing machine until
I was about 16.

We had a "copper": a metal tub with a gas flame underneath. Once the
water was boiling the clothes had to be moved around with a wooden stick.
I was fascinated by that stick. When wood is frequently in boiling water
it gets a funny appearance.
Eventually we got one of those machines that Tony mentioned, complete
with a wringer that could catch your fingers. I think my parents got an
automatic washing machine after I had left home.
After my first marriage broke down I had to get cheap second-hand
appliances, so I got a twin-tub washing maching. One side was for
washing, the other for spinning. It was very labour-intensive. Doing the
week's wash took the whole of Saturday morning. I couldn't leave the
machine because of having to move things between tubs all the time. I'll
never get one of those again.

Someone gave us a used twin-tub when we got married --- we bought a
real washing machine soon afterwards. The strange thing is that you
can still buy new ones.

[Stefan Ram]

Post by Adam Funk
Someone gave us a used twin-tub when we got married --- we bought a
real washing machine soon afterwards. The strange thing is that you
can still buy new ones.

Twin-tubs can be more water-wise, as they let you recycle
the suds from one load to the next. That's clutch for places
dealing with water shortages, like we sometimes see in the
Golden State.

These bad boys are usually made of plastic, so they're
a breeze to keep up and won't rust out on you like those metal
behemoths. Their no-frills design means fewer moving parts,
so you're not constantly shelling out for repairs.

When it comes to your wallet, twin-tubs won't break the bank like
those fancy-pants automatic washers. They're a solid pick for
folks trying to pinch pennies without sacrificing clean threads.

[Chris Elvidge]

On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 19:47:40 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Of course they would, just as I - at their age - could understand the
function of a washboard.

My mother used one of those. She didn't get a washing machine until I
was about 16.

In my earliest memories of my mother doing the wash, she was using a
washing machine. It was a top-loading drum that evidently either
didn't have a spin cycle or the spin cycle didn't work.
When items were taken out of the washing machine, she ran them through
a set of rollers on an arm that swung out over the machine. The
rollers squeezed out the excess water. More than once she caught her
fingers in the rollers.
We didn't have a dryer, so clothes were pegged on a clothesline to
dry. In inclement weather, the clothesline was strung in basement.

We changed ours like that one for an up-to-date "twin tub" - washing
machine and (separate) spin dryer in one case (about 1976 or so).

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Thu, 5 Sep 2024 14:29:05 +0100

Post by Chris Elvidge

On Wed, 4 Sep 2024 19:47:40 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Of course they would, just as I - at their age - could understand the
function of a washboard.

My mother used one of those. She didn't get a washing machine until I
was about 16.

In my earliest memories of my mother doing the wash, she was using a
washing machine. It was a top-loading drum that evidently either
didn't have a spin cycle or the spin cycle didn't work.
When items were taken out of the washing machine, she ran them through
a set of rollers on an arm that swung out over the machine. The
rollers squeezed out the excess water. More than once she caught her
fingers in the rollers.
We didn't have a dryer, so clothes were pegged on a clothesline to
dry. In inclement weather, the clothesline was strung in basement.

We changed ours like that one for an up-to-date "twin tub" - washing
machine and (separate) spin dryer in one case (about 1976 or so).

Kids today don't even know what a Sony Walkman is. I expect mp3s will
soon (already?) be seen as ancient technology.

[Garrett Wollman]

We didn't have a dryer, so clothes were pegged on a clothesline to
dry. In inclement weather, the clothesline was strung in basement.

When I bought my condo 23 years ago, the back courtyard of every
building had a couple of n-shaped steel bars mounted in the ground
over a paved surface, which I was told was for people to run
clotheslines if they didn't have a dryer. I never saw anyone use
them, and a few years later, they were demolished (although the paving
was left alone, I guess that would have cost more to remove).

The last I remember seeing someone use an actual clothesline, it was
the early 1980s.[1] A family friend who was a pharmacist owned a large
property (I think it was a former farm or orchard) and his (otherwise
stay-at-home) wife would pick me up from school along with their
youngest. They had a clothesline on a pulley, and she would put their
clothes out to dry on it in the summer. I'm guessing they would have
had either oil or wood heat -- certainly not gas -- and electricity
was expensive.

-GAWollman

[1] Must have been 1981, I would have been eight, because I remember
being with them on the day John Hinckley tried to assassinate Ronald
Reagan.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Thu, 5 Sep 2024 15:25:14 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Garrett Wollman

We didn't have a dryer, so clothes were pegged on a clothesline to
dry. In inclement weather, the clothesline was strung in basement.

When I bought my condo 23 years ago, the back courtyard of every
building had a couple of n-shaped steel bars mounted in the ground
over a paved surface, which I was told was for people to run
clotheslines if they didn't have a dryer. I never saw anyone use
them, and a few years later, they were demolished (although the paving
was left alone, I guess that would have cost more to remove).
The last I remember seeing someone use an actual clothesline, it was
the early 1980s.[1] A family friend who was a pharmacist owned a large
property (I think it was a former farm or orchard) and his (otherwise
stay-at-home) wife would pick me up from school along with their
youngest. They had a clothesline on a pulley, and she would put their
clothes out to dry on it in the summer. I'm guessing they would have
had either oil or wood heat -- certainly not gas -- and electricity
was expensive.
-GAWollman
[1] Must have been 1981, I would have been eight, because I remember
being with them on the day John Hinckley tried to assassinate Ronald
Reagan.

Even in First World Europe we mostly still hang out our washing (don't
we?). You Yanks are huge energy consumers.

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Even in First World Europe we mostly still hang out our washing (don't
we?). You Yanks are huge energy consumers.

Energy is cheap, time is expensive.

-GAWollman

[Janet]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Even in First World Europe we mostly still hang out our washing (don't
we?). You Yanks are huge energy consumers.

Energy is cheap, time is expensive.

Bedlinen dried outdoors on a line, in the wind and sun,
is a luxury. Those who have never slept in it don't know
what they're missing.

Janet

[Silvano]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
Even in First World Europe we mostly still hang out our washing (don't
we?). You Yanks are huge energy consumers.

Energy is cheap,

If you're talking about oil and gas, this misconception is probably the
main reason why you US Americans are the biggest contributors to the
climate catastrophe.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Thu, 5 Sep 2024 10:24:59 +1000

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Of course they would, just as I - at their age - could understand
the function of a washboard.

My mother used one of those. She didn't get a washing machine until
I was about 16.

We had a "copper": a metal tub with a gas flame underneath. Once the
water was boiling the clothes had to be moved around with a wooden stick.

My mum had a tongs - a flexible metal spring part at the top and 2 wooden
graspers to extract the boiled clotthes from the tub. Then manually
through the double cylinder wringer, and then onto the line. Lter to be
ironed on the ironing board (do kids today ...ctd p94) - this was
early/mid 60s so it was an electric iron!

I was fascinated by that stick. When wood is frequently in boiling water
it gets a funny appearance.
Eventually we got one of those machines that Tony mentioned, complete
with a wringer that could catch your fingers. I think my parents got an
automatic washing machine after I had left home.
After my first marriage broke down I had to get cheap second-hand
appliances, so I got a twin-tub washing maching. One side was for
washing, the other for spinning. It was very labour-intensive. Doing the
week's wash took the whole of Saturday morning. I couldn't leave the
machine because of having to move things between tubs all the time. I'll
never get one of those again.

Womens Lib had no chance until domestic drudgery was automated.
(Romans relied on slaves, but never got around to mechanisation).

[Peter Moylan]

When living in London, my phone number was one (wrong) digit away
from that of British Gas Helpline. This was not a problem for me as I
was away at work during 'working hours'. However I would warn guests
staying over that they should expect these calls.

When in another house, we used to get a lot of calls for Gladys. (Or
some such name. The name has slipped out of my mind.) After a while we
discovered that Gladys had the same number as us, except for the
transposition of two digits.

My wife, who received most of those calls, used to respond with "You've
phoned the wrong number again". Eventually her patience wore thin, so
she answered "She died". The calls tapered off after that.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Peter Moylan

When living in London, my phone number was one (wrong) digit away
from that of British Gas Helpline. This was not a problem for me as I
was away at work during 'working hours'. However I would warn guests
staying over that they should expect these calls.

When in another house, we used to get a lot of calls for Gladys. (Or
some such name. The name has slipped out of my mind.) After a while we
discovered that Gladys had the same number as us, except for the
transposition of two digits.
My wife, who received most of those calls, used to respond with "You've
phoned the wrong number again". Eventually her patience wore thin, so
she answered "She died". The calls tapered off after that.

I may have mentioned this here before:

I once knew someone whose last name was Kirson. When he got telephone
service, he was asked how the name was spelled. He replied
N-O-S-R-I-K, but was told "that's not how 'Kirson' is spelled." He
replied "it's MY name and I can spell it any way I want to."

So it went into the phone book as "Nosrik." Whenever he got a call
asking for "Mr Nosrik," he knew it was spam, and always replied
"Sorry, he's died. We're laying him out right now."

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Sam Plusnet
I don't have a fixed IP (although my router tells me my "up time" is 231
days, so it will not have changed during that period) and the idea of
inheriting an IP from a scammer hadn't occurred to me.
It would be somewhat like inheriting a phone number from a Take Away or
a Taxi service etc.

In Denmark phone numbers are quarantined for a period to avoid such
problems, but 'neighbouring' numbers are not protected. I once had one
that had belonged to a swim club, and the protection didn't help much
because many members used the old number. Besides it only differed from
a builders' drive in supermarket by the sequence. That was a bit funny
because People would phone me and ask "Is it turn the wind?"

When I was first at the CNRS my internal phone number was 3088. 3083
belonged to a lady in the adminstration. However, her name also began
Co, and the phone list was muddily printed on poor paper, and 8 wasn't
easily distinguishable from 3. I often had calls from people who wanted
to talk to her.

"Turn the wind" in Danish is "drej vinden" = "drive in'en" = "the drive
in".

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Hibou

Post by BéCé

Post by jerryfriedman
I wasn't sure what this headline meant till I glanced at the article,
partly because of a locution that was new to me.
Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya
https://www.riograndesun.com/news/sheriff-cross-commissions-fire-marshal-pablo-montoya/article_91ad8bf0-6610-11ef-8e78-435502feba57.html

451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact

(Bonjour, Bernard.)
I get the same message, even though I'm not in the EU and not in the EEA.
Not a reliable site, apparently.

Perhaps the code was written whilst the UK was in the EU, and no-one has
bothered to update it.

[Peter Moylan]

In my youth I thought that (southern) spring was August-October. For
all practical purposes I still do -- the first leaves appear on some
trees between 10-20 August, and some trees start flowering then
Jacarandas are later, and flower about mid-late October, marking the
end of spring.

Our wattles (acacia pycnantha) flower in August, and because the golden
flowers are so obvious people think of this as a sign of an early
spring. It isn't; the wattles were flowering in August even before
temperatures started rising.

[occam]

Post by jerryfriedman
I wasn't sure what this headline meant till I glanced at the article,
partly because of a locution that was new to me.
Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya
https://www.riograndesun.com/news/sheriff-cross-commissions-fire-
marshal-pablo-montoya/article_91ad8bf0-6610-11ef-8e78-435502feba57.html

If you are accessing the page from outside of the USA, you'll see this:


"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons

We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact
***@riograndesun.com or call 505-753-2126."

If you have access to a VPN, then change your IP to a USA-friendly address.

[micky]

In alt.usage.english, on Fri, 30 Aug 2024 21:32:35 +0200, occam

Post by occam

Post by jerryfriedman
I wasn't sure what this headline meant till I glanced at the article,
partly because of a locution that was new to me.
Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya
https://www.riograndesun.com/news/sheriff-cross-commissions-fire-
marshal-pablo-montoya/article_91ad8bf0-6610-11ef-8e78-435502feba57.html

"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact
If you have access to a VPN, then change your IP to a USA-friendly address.

When I was outside the US, I tried to use the VPN that Firefox offers,
and it didn't work or I didn't know how to work it.

Then I tried Nord VPN and it didn't work or I didn't know how to work
it.

Then I tried Express VPN and it worked just fine, without any trouble,
and it has an app for Android that's included in the same price (and
maybe iphones?)

They all give you a free first month, I think. But I did forget to
cancel when I got home, so I paid for an extra month.

And they work great, but otoh when I wanted to listen to a webpage that
was local, I had to turn it off because the net thought I was in the
USA.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by occam

Post by jerryfriedman
I wasn't sure what this headline meant till I glanced at the article,
partly because of a locution that was new to me.
Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya
https://www.riograndesun.com/news/sheriff-cross-commissions-fire-
marshal-pablo-montoya/article_91ad8bf0-6610-11ef-8e78-435502feba57.html

"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact
If you have access to a VPN, then change your IP to a USA-friendly address.

Sorry about that. Tony has explained it.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Steve Hayes]

Post by occam

Post by jerryfriedman
I wasn't sure what this headline meant till I glanced at the article,
partly because of a locution that was new to me.
Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya
https://www.riograndesun.com/news/sheriff-cross-commissions-fire-
marshal-pablo-montoya/article_91ad8bf0-6610-11ef-8e78-435502feba57.html

"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact
If you have access to a VPN, then change your IP to a USA-friendly address.

I had no problem in acessing it.

[occam]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by occam

Post by jerryfriedman
I wasn't sure what this headline meant till I glanced at the article,
partly because of a locution that was new to me.
Sheriff Cross-Commissions Fire Marshal Pablo Montoya
https://www.riograndesun.com/news/sheriff-cross-commissions-fire-
marshal-pablo-montoya/article_91ad8bf0-6610-11ef-8e78-435502feba57.html

"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact
If you have access to a VPN, then change your IP to a USA-friendly address.

I had no problem in acessing it.

I'm glad the Rio Grande Sun regards SA as a friendly country. Is it
perhaps because SA does not bother protecting its citizens by imposing
Data Protection Regulations in the way EU does for its citizens? I've
now cancelled my subscription to the Rio Grande Sun. (Just kidding.)

[Steve Hayes]

Post by occam
I'm glad the Rio Grande Sun regards SA as a friendly country. Is it
perhaps because SA does not bother protecting its citizens by imposing
Data Protection Regulations in the way EU does for its citizens? I've
now cancelled my subscription to the Rio Grande Sun. (Just kidding.)

We have all kinds of data protection laws, but I didn't see anything
in that article that would be likely to break them.

Apparently Facebook isn't allowed in Canada, or perhaps it's that
Canada isn't allowed on Facebook, I'm not sure why.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by occam
I'm glad the Rio Grande Sun regards SA as a friendly country. Is it
perhaps because SA does not bother protecting its citizens by imposing
Data Protection Regulations in the way EU does for its citizens? I've
now cancelled my subscription to the Rio Grande Sun. (Just kidding.)

We have all kinds of data protection laws, but I didn't see anything
in that article that would be likely to break them.
Apparently Facebook isn't allowed in Canada, or perhaps it's that
Canada isn't allowed on Facebook, I'm not sure why.

Our a-hole of a prime minister has decided that Facebook (among other
social media) is required to pay Canada for supplying Canadian news.
Facebook declined, and they basically just shut off anything that could
be considered Canadian content.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by occam
I'm glad the Rio Grande Sun regards SA as a friendly country. Is it
perhaps because SA does not bother protecting its citizens by imposing
Data Protection Regulations in the way EU does for its citizens? I've
now cancelled my subscription to the Rio Grande Sun. (Just kidding.)

We have all kinds of data protection laws, but I didn't see anything
in that article that would be likely to break them.
Apparently Facebook isn't allowed in Canada, or perhaps it's that
Canada isn't allowed on Facebook, I'm not sure why.

Our a-hole of a prime minister has decided that Facebook (among other
social media) is required to pay Canada for supplying Canadian news.
Facebook declined, and they basically just shut off anything that could
be considered Canadian content.

I'm beginning to get a faint hint that you are not a fan of your prime
minister.


Did 'he' decide on that measure? Or was it the usual sausage that comes
out of the lawmaking process in a democracy?

[lar3ryca]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by occam
I'm glad the Rio Grande Sun regards SA as a friendly country. Is it
perhaps because SA does not bother protecting its citizens by imposing
Data Protection Regulations in the way EU does for its citizens? I've
now cancelled my subscription to the Rio Grande Sun. (Just kidding.)

We have all kinds of data protection laws, but I didn't see anything
in that article that would be likely to break them.
Apparently Facebook isn't allowed in Canada, or perhaps it's that
Canada isn't allowed on Facebook, I'm not sure why.

Our a-hole of a prime minister has decided that Facebook (among other
social media) is required to pay Canada for supplying Canadian news.
Facebook declined, and they basically just shut off anything that
could be considered Canadian content.

I'm beginning to get a faint hint that you are not a fan of your prime
minister.

You could safely say that. He belongs in jail, not in office.

Post by Sam Plusnet
Did 'he' decide on that measure?  Or was it the usual sausage that comes
out of the lawmaking process in a democracy?

No idea, but the members of his coalition party follow his wishes.

[Hibou]

Post by occam
"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact
If you have access to a VPN, then change your IP to a USA-friendly address.

But would you want to visit a site that doesn't respect the GDPR?

I merely ask.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Hibou

Post by occam
"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact
If you have access to a VPN, then change your IP to a USA-friendly address.

But would you want to visit a site that doesn't respect the GDPR?
I merely ask.

A cynic might point out that whilst the US imposes their rules on other
countries, they are somewhat reluctant to accept reciprocal action.
Fortunately, I am not that cynic.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Hibou

Post by occam
"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact
If you have access to a VPN, then change your IP to a USA-friendly address.

But would you want to visit a site that doesn't respect the GDPR?
I merely ask.

A cynic might point out that whilst the US imposes their rules on other
countries, they are somewhat reluctant to accept reciprocal action.
Fortunately, I am not that cynic.

Isn't this rule European?

By the way, I suspect that it has never crossed the Rio Grande
Sun's mind that anyone outside the U.S. would try to access
it, other than expats who depend on remittances of green
chile and on VPNs. And if it did, the Sun wouldn't think it
was losing any advertising revenue.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Hibou

Post by occam
"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country
belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which
enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore
access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact
If you have access to a VPN, then change your IP to a USA-friendly address.

But would you want to visit a site that doesn't respect the GDPR?
I merely ask.

A cynic might point out that whilst the US imposes their rules on other
countries, they are somewhat reluctant to accept reciprocal action.
Fortunately, I am not that cynic.

Isn't this rule European?

Exactly. I thought that explained why so many US-based websites decided
to not 'engage' with it, and rejected outsiders.

Post by jerryfriedman
By the way, I suspect that it has never crossed the Rio Grande
Sun's mind that anyone outside the U.S. would try to access
it, other than expats who depend on remittances of green
chile and on VPNs.  And if it did, the Sun wouldn't think it
was losing any advertising revenue.

The Rio Grande Sun probably relies on some professional help to keep
their website abreast of modern trends.

There was probably an article about it in the "Website Maintainers'
Monthly" so the
"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons"
technique was widely adopted.