code point fun

[Snidely]

One of the newsgroups I follow (slowly) includes postings that are a
transcription of a post on a relevant organization's website.

Sometimes the transcriptions, in ASCII, run afoul of certain code
points, and the case in hand is one of those.

What would be written in ASCII if entered by hand as
"ARES(R) responds" was shown on the webpage as "ARES® Responds".
The transcription was " ARES?NDS".

Not only was the code point not transcribed nicely, several following
characters were lost and case was shifted on some more. Good times.

Emacs tells me that the symbol used was
® (displayed as ®) (codepoint 174, #o256, #xae)

Not sure what transcription process was used, or where the symbol and
it's followers were gobbled up. The case shift is a deliberate part of
the transcription, it seems, used as a <H> equivalent, and doesn't
happen in the intro list ("ARES?nds" there). There's at least one more
example in the same post:
"ARES?RCES" and "ARES?rces" for "ARES® Resources".
The usenet post has the header
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8

For those still reading and for some reason wanting to see the
referenced posts:
rec.radio.amateur.misc
Message-ID: <***@bmail.arrl.org>
and
<URL:http://www.arrl.org/ares-el?issue=2023-07-19>
with <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=UTF-8">

/dps

[Snidely]

Post by Snidely
One of the newsgroups I follow (slowly) includes postings that are a
transcription of a post on a relevant organization's website.
Sometimes the transcriptions, in ASCII, run afoul of certain code points, and
the case in hand is one of those.
What would be written in ASCII if entered by hand as
"ARES(R) responds" was shown on the webpage as "ARES® Responds".
The transcription was " ARES?NDS".
Not only was the code point not transcribed nicely, several following
characters were lost
and case was shifted on some more.

The editor failed to catch this stale clause.

Post by Snidely
Good times.
Emacs tells me that the symbol used was
® (displayed as ®) (codepoint 174, #o256, #xae)
Not sure what transcription process was used, or where the symbol and it's
followers were gobbled up. The case shift is a deliberate part of the
transcription, it seems, used as a <H> equivalent, and doesn't happen in the
intro list ("ARES?nds" there). There's at least one more example in the same
"ARES?RCES" and "ARES?rces" for "ARES® Resources".
The usenet post has the header
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8
For those still reading and for some reason wanting to see the referenced
rec.radio.amateur.misc
and
<URL:http://www.arrl.org/ares-el?issue=2023-07-19>
with <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
/dps

-d

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Snidely
One of the newsgroups I follow (slowly) includes postings that are a
transcription of a post on a relevant organization's website.
Sometimes the transcriptions, in ASCII, run afoul of certain code
points, and the case in hand is one of those.

Currently I am, in collaboration with a cousin, trying to organise a
family reunion. The current tricky problem is preparing a database of
contact details. My starting point was a web page listing all
descendants of my paternal grandfather. That gives all the names, but
not things like e-mail addresses.

Then the steps were:
-- save that web page as a PDF
-- open the PDF in MSWord, and do tidying-up stuff like removing
hyperlinks and removing unnecessary white space. Also
inserting some commas for the next step.
-- still in MSWord, save that file with a CSV name.
-- open the CSV with Excel. The rest is obvious.

Although that was a fiddly job, I didn't expect to have the code point
problems that you mention, because all the names were in ASCII. Imagine
my surprise when all my apostrophes turned into AE ligatures.

It turns out that MS-Word doesn't like plain ASCII apostrophes, and
turns them into characters that are going to cause problems in a "plain
text" environment.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Snidely
One of the newsgroups I follow (slowly) includes postings that are a
 transcription of a post on a relevant organization's website.
Sometimes the transcriptions, in ASCII, run afoul of certain code
points, and the case in hand is one of those.

Currently I am, in collaboration with a cousin, trying to organise a
family reunion. The current tricky problem is preparing a database of
contact details. My starting point was a web page listing all
descendants of my paternal grandfather. That gives all the names, but
not things like e-mail addresses.
 -- save that web page as a PDF
 -- open the PDF in MSWord, and do tidying-up stuff like removing
    hyperlinks and removing unnecessary white space. Also
    inserting some commas for the next step.
 -- still in MSWord, save that file with a CSV name.
 -- open the CSV with Excel. The rest is obvious.
Although that was a fiddly job, I didn't expect to have the code point
problems that you mention, because all the names were in ASCII. Imagine
my surprise when all my apostrophes turned into AE ligatures.
It turns out that MS-Word doesn't like plain ASCII apostrophes, and
turns them into characters that are going to cause problems in a "plain
text" environment.

I wonder if LibreOffice or OpenOffice have that same problem.

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Snidely
One of the newsgroups I follow (slowly) includes postings that are a
transcription of a post on a relevant organization's website.
Sometimes the transcriptions, in ASCII, run afoul of certain code points, and
the case in hand is one of those.
What would be written in ASCII if entered by hand as
"ARES(R) responds" was shown on the webpage as "ARES® Responds".
The transcription was " ARES?NDS".
Not only was the code point not transcribed nicely, several following
characters were lost and case was shifted on some more. Good times.
Emacs tells me that the symbol used was
® (displayed as ®) (codepoint 174, #o256, #xae)

Do a M-: (split-char (char-after)) to get more details of what this is in the
Emacs internal encoding.

Post by Snidely
Not sure what transcription process was used, or where the symbol and it's
followers were gobbled up. The case shift is a deliberate part of the
transcription, it seems, used as a <H> equivalent, and doesn't happen in the
intro list ("ARES?nds" there). There's at least one more example in the same

All of that is corruption within GNU Emacs.

Post by Snidely
"ARES?RCES" and "ARES?rces" for "ARES® Resources".
The usenet post has the header
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8

The underlying problem is that the header metadata is (“are”, but that battle
is lost) incorrect. The symbol you mention, and the encoding of “résumé”
further down, both use Code Page 1252, a Microsoft-specific encoding that is
not UTF-8 and is not compatible with it (beyond the ASCII code points). All
non-ASCII in UTF-8 is a sequence of at least two octets with the high bit set.
The non-ASCII in this post is represented using single octets, and a reliable
UTF-8 decoder should be able to handle this corruption gracefully.

Post by Snidely
rec.radio.amateur.misc
and
<URL:http://www.arrl.org/ares-el?issue=2023-07-19>
with <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">

[Snidely]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by Snidely
One of the newsgroups I follow (slowly) includes postings that are a
transcription of a post on a relevant organization's website.
Sometimes the transcriptions, in ASCII, run afoul of certain code points,
and the case in hand is one of those.
What would be written in ASCII if entered by hand as
"ARES(R) responds" was shown on the webpage as "ARES® Responds".
The transcription was " ARES?NDS".
Not only was the code point not transcribed nicely, several following
characters were lost and case was shifted on some more. Good times.
Emacs tells me that the symbol used was
® (displayed as ®) (codepoint 174, #o256, #xae)

Do a M-: (split-char (char-after)) to get more details of what this is in the
Emacs internal encoding.

Post by Snidely
Not sure what transcription process was used, or where the symbol and it's
followers were gobbled up. The case shift is a deliberate part of the
transcription, it seems, used as a <H> equivalent, and doesn't happen in the
intro list ("ARES?nds" there). There's at least one more example in the

All of that is corruption within GNU Emacs.

Huh? The corruption was in the post, before I examined things in
Emacs.

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by Snidely
"ARES?RCES" and "ARES?rces" for "ARES® Resources".
The usenet post has the header
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8

The underlying problem is that the header metadata is (“are”, but that battle
is lost) incorrect. The symbol you mention, and the encoding of “résumé”
further down, both use Code Page 1252, a Microsoft-specific encoding that is
not UTF-8 and is not compatible with it (beyond the ASCII code points). All
non-ASCII in UTF-8 is a sequence of at least two octets with the high bit
set. The non-ASCII in this post is represented using single octets, and a
reliable UTF-8 decoder should be able to handle this corruption gracefully.

Okay.

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by Snidely
For those still reading and for some reason wanting to see the referenced
posts: rec.radio.amateur.misc
and
<URL:http://www.arrl.org/ares-el?issue=2023-07-19>
with <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">

/dps

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] Not sure what transcription process was used, or where the symbol
and it's followers were gobbled up. The case shift is a deliberate part
of the transcription, it seems, used as a <H> equivalent, and doesn't
happen in the intro list ("ARES?nds" there). There's at least one more

All of that is corruption within GNU Emacs.

Huh? The corruption was in the post, before I examined things in Emacs.

Is it visible when you view the post on the web here?

https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=88&group=rec.radio.amateur.misc

[Snidely]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] Not sure what transcription process was used, or where the symbol
and it's followers were gobbled up. The case shift is a deliberate part
of the transcription, it seems, used as a <H> equivalent, and doesn't
happen in the intro list ("ARES?nds" there). There's at least one more

All of that is corruption within GNU Emacs.

Huh? The corruption was in the post, before I examined things in Emacs.

Is it visible when you view the post on the web here?
https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=88&group=rec.radio.amateur.misc

No. Only the symbol is missing, replaced by a black diamond with a
question mark. The letters missing in my newsreader are not missing on
the rewebbed post.

My newsreader is NOT emacs.

/dps

[Snidely]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] Not sure what transcription process was used, or where the symbol
and it's followers were gobbled up. The case shift is a deliberate part
of the transcription, it seems, used as a <H> equivalent, and doesn't
happen in the intro list ("ARES?nds" there). There's at least one more

All of that is corruption within GNU Emacs.

Huh? The corruption was in the post, before I examined things in Emacs.

Is it visible when you view the post on the web here?
https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=88&group=rec.radio.amateur.misc

No. Only the symbol is missing, replaced by a black diamond with a question
mark. The letters missing in my newsreader are not missing on the rewebbed
post.
My newsreader is NOT emacs.

Of course, we know that there are several ways that newsreaders can
mangle "mis-coded" text, and some newsreaders do it one way and some
another, and the fun is just beginning because a newsreader can take aa
mangling from someone else and mangle that further (I don't think
examples are common).

FWIW, there are posts in RRAM that show to me in my newsreader as
Chinese characters.

/dps

[Snidely]

FWIW, there are posts in RRAM that show to me in my newsreader as Chinese
characters.

Just noticed that the subject line of these posts shows as Chinese
characters in listview, but the subwindow with the msg view shows the
subject line as mostly question marks and a few random characters,
while the body is chinese characters. Presumably spam, and posted via
GG.

/dps

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Snidely

Post by Snidely
FWIW, there are posts in RRAM that show to me in my newsreader as
Chinese characters.

Just noticed that the subject line of these posts shows as Chinese
characters in listview, but the subwindow with the msg view shows
the subject line as mostly question marks and a few random
characters, while the body is chinese characters. Presumably spam,
and posted via GG.

With properly configured mail or news software, the MIME header lines
give the character set for the message BODY. For example, Snidely's headers
say charset="iso-8859-15", and my newsreader then knows to assume
iso-8859-15 when rendering your message body to my screen.

But that doesn't work for the header lines themselves. They are supposed
to be in plain 7-bit ASCII. For non-ASCII characters a special encoding is
needed, different from the MIME encodings, to map those characters into
a 7-bit representation.

So there is, for example, a way of writing the Subject: line in Chinese,
and standards-conforming software can generate such lines and also
decode them.

But not all software is good. Spammers, as we know, are likely to use
some Windows character set, without using the right encodings, and then
when you read the article the Subject: line will be rendered as garbage.
Some older Miscros**t software also treats the standards with contempt.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Post by Snidely

Post by Aidan Kehoe

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] Not sure what transcription process was used, or where the symbol
and it's followers were gobbled up. The case shift is a deliberate part
of the transcription, it seems, used as a <H> equivalent, and doesn't
happen in the intro list ("ARES?nds" there). There's at least one more

All of that is corruption within GNU Emacs.

Huh? The corruption was in the post, before I examined things in Emacs.

Is it visible when you view the post on the web here?
https://www.novabbs.com/tech/article-flat.php?id=88&group=rec.radio.amateur.misc

No. Only the symbol is missing, replaced by a black diamond with a
question mark. The letters missing in my newsreader are not missing on
the rewebbed post.

Yes. Here apparently a UTF8 interpreter has been at work, which says
"hex ae in UTF is a follow-up byte, but we were not in a sequence, so
this is invalid. Display as diamond with question mark."

That is much better.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Post by Snidely
One of the newsgroups I follow (slowly) includes postings that are a
transcription of a post on a relevant organization's website.
Sometimes the transcriptions, in ASCII, run afoul of certain code
points, and the case in hand is one of those.
What would be written in ASCII if entered by hand as
"ARES(R) responds" was shown on the webpage as "ARES® Responds".
The transcription was " ARES?NDS".

[...]

Post by Snidely
happen in the intro list ("ARES?nds" there). There's at least one more
"ARES?RCES" and "ARES?rces" for "ARES® Resources".

I had a similar problem in two Dutch newsgroups (crossposted_, when
someone used the word "geïnstalleerd" (Dutch for "installed") in a
post in ISO-8859-1 or CP1252, but without properly indicating that in
a header.

Other software interpreted that as if it were UTF8, resulting in 3
letters getting skipped: ge?talleerd.

The technical explanation that I reconstructed was that the letter ï
(i with diaeresis) in CP1252 (Windows code page 1252, Latin-1) is
hexadecimal EF, or binary 11101111. Interpreting that as UTF, the
three 1-bits at the start mean "this is the first byte of a sequence
with total length 3". But that sequence is invalid in UTF8.
Nonetheless three bytes were skipped, and displayed as a question mark
or a diamond symbol. So
geïnstalleerd became
ge?talleerd, with ïns interpreted as invalid UTF8.

In your example, not 3 but 7 seven bytes get skipped, which is strange
because the maximum length of a valid UTF8 byte sequence is 4. And the
symbol ® indeed is hex AE, binary 10101110. Bits 10 at the start in
UTF8 indicate a follow-up byte, which cannot be the first byte of a
valid sequence. So why this skips 7 bytes is beyond me.

In the not so near future I expect all those legacy encodings to
become obsolete and forbidden, with only UTF8 remaining.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
In the not so near future I expect all those legacy encodings to
become obsolete and forbidden, with only UTF8 remaining.

Have all countries gone metric?

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:43:45 +0100: Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Ruud Harmsen
In the not so near future I expect all those legacy encodings to
become obsolete and forbidden, with only UTF8 remaining.

Have all countries gone metric?

No, the USA, Liberia and Myanmar are the only ones that haven’t.

Who plays their role in this parabel? Not China, not Japan. Their
special encodings have almost fallen into disuse now.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:43:45 +0100: Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Ruud Harmsen
In the not so near future I expect all those legacy encodings to
become obsolete and forbidden, with only UTF8 remaining.

Have all countries gone metric?

No, the USA, Liberia and Myanmar are the only ones that haven’t.

Not entirely true. The last time I was in Scotland, the road speed limit
signs were in mph. As I understand it, the UK went partly metric, and
then never finished the job. The half-hearted approach is probably bad
for the economy, but perhaps the UK has to wait for a competent
politician to appear.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:43:45 +0100: Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Ruud Harmsen
In the not so near future I expect all those legacy encodings to
become obsolete and forbidden, with only UTF8 remaining.

Have all countries gone metric?

No, the USA, Liberia and Myanmar are the only ones that haven’t.

Not entirely true. The last time I was in Scotland, the road speed limit
signs were in mph. As I understand it, the UK went partly metric, and
then never finished the job. The half-hearted approach is probably bad
for the economy, but perhaps the UK has to wait for a competent
politician to appear.

I think you're right.

[Hibou]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Have all countries gone metric?

No, the USA, Liberia and Myanmar are the only ones that haven’t.

Not entirely true. The last time I was in Scotland, the road speed limit
signs were in mph. As I understand it, the UK went partly metric, and
then never finished the job. The half-hearted approach is probably bad
for the economy, but perhaps the UK has to wait for a competent
politician to appear.

English needs Imperial units.

I centimetred closer to him.
She was daydreaming, kilometres away.
He went the whole nine metres.
Give him a centimetre and he'll take a kilometre.
A gram of common-sense is worth a kilo of theory.
Seven-kilometre boots.
You should walk a kilometre in his shoes.
She won't budge a centimetre.
He wants his kilo of flesh.
They were kilometres out.
Kilometre-meter (mileometer).

Not forgetting...

Cent wise, euro foolish.
It turns on a centime (sixpence).
He's not quite the full euro (shilling).
As bent as a nine-euro note (bob).

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sun, 3 Nov 2024 14:36:41 +0000: Hibou

Post by Hibou
English needs Imperial units.
I centimetred closer to him.
She was daydreaming, kilometres away.
He went the whole nine metres.
Give him a centimetre and he'll take a kilometre.
A gram of common-sense is worth a kilo of theory.
Seven-kilometre boots.
You should walk a kilometre in his shoes.
She won't budge a centimetre.
He wants his kilo of flesh.
They were kilometres out.
Kilometre-meter (mileometer).
Not forgetting...
Cent wise, euro foolish.
It turns on a centime (sixpence).
He's not quite the full euro (shilling).
As bent as a nine-euro note (bob).

No problem. In Dutch we have loads of expressions with coins that no
longer exist, but the expressions remain and are understood
figuratively.

Op de penning zijn.
Het kwartje valt.
Een duit in het zakje doen.
Op de markt is je gulden een daalder waard.
Hij heeft geen sou meer.
Een oogje in het zeil houden. (not a coin; from sailing)
Wie voor een dubbeltje geboren is, wordt nooit een kwartje.

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sun, 3 Nov 2024 14:36:41 +0000: Hibou

Post by Hibou
English needs Imperial units.
I centimetred closer to him.
She was daydreaming, kilometres away.
He went the whole nine metres.
Give him a centimetre and he'll take a kilometre.
A gram of common-sense is worth a kilo of theory.
Seven-kilometre boots.
You should walk a kilometre in his shoes.
She won't budge a centimetre.
He wants his kilo of flesh.
They were kilometres out.
Kilometre-meter (mileometer).
Not forgetting...
Cent wise, euro foolish.
It turns on a centime (sixpence).
He's not quite the full euro (shilling).
As bent as a nine-euro note (bob).

No problem. In Dutch we have loads of expressions with coins that no
longer exist, but the expressions remain and are understood
figuratively.

Yep. Similarly in the Republic of Ireland I draw mileage and subsistence
according to the Civil Service Mileage Rates, which are all documented in
kilometres, and there’s no issue. Similarly there is no issue with salary not,
usually, being paid in salt, etymology is not destiny for words.

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Op de penning zijn.
Het kwartje valt.
Een duit in het zakje doen.
Op de markt is je gulden een daalder waard.
Hij heeft geen sou meer.
Een oogje in het zeil houden. (not a coin; from sailing)
Wie voor een dubbeltje geboren is, wordt nooit een kwartje.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com

[Hibou]

Post by Ruud Harmsen

Post by Hibou
Not forgetting...
Cent wise, euro foolish.
It turns on a centime (sixpence).
He's not quite the full euro (shilling).
As bent as a nine-euro note (bob).

No problem. In Dutch we have loads of expressions with coins that no
longer exist, but the expressions remain and are understood
figuratively.
Op de penning zijn.
Het kwartje valt.
Een duit in het zakje doen.
Op de markt is je gulden een daalder waard.
Hij heeft geen sou meer.
Een oogje in het zeil houden. (not a coin; from sailing)
Wie voor een dubbeltje geboren is, wordt nooit een kwartje.

Wasted on me, old boy.

I always think that a day is lost if one hasn't learnt something, and
today I've learned... that I'm quite unable to distinguish single Dutch
from double Dutch.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Hibou

Post by Ruud Harmsen
No problem. In Dutch we have loads of expressions with coins that no
longer exist, but the expressions remain and are understood
figuratively.
Op de penning zijn.
Het kwartje valt.
Een duit in het zakje doen.
Op de markt is je gulden een daalder waard.
Hij heeft geen sou meer.
Een oogje in het zeil houden. (not a coin; from sailing)
Wie voor een dubbeltje geboren is, wordt nooit een kwartje.

Wasted on me, old boy.

I am lucky having grown up with Danish. That gives me an idea of what
written Dutch means.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Mon, 04 Nov 2024 11:16:01 -0000, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou

Post by Ruud Harmsen
No problem. In Dutch we have loads of expressions with coins that no
longer exist, but the expressions remain and are understood
figuratively.
Op de penning zijn.
Het kwartje valt.
Een duit in het zakje doen.
Op de markt is je gulden een daalder waard.
Hij heeft geen sou meer.
Een oogje in het zeil houden. (not a coin; from sailing)
Wie voor een dubbeltje geboren is, wordt nooit een kwartje.

Wasted on me, old boy.

But but but, English is just a dialect of Flemish, so I was told (by a
local).
The only difference is that the English work through lunchtime, serve much
weedier beers, and have no idea how to make (or serve) proper chips.

I'm sure Mr Lodder can expand on the relative merits of the navies.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am lucky having grown up with Danish. That gives me an idea of what
written Dutch means.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 04 Nov 2024 11:16:01 -0000, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou

Post by Ruud Harmsen
No problem. In Dutch we have loads of expressions with coins that no
longer exist, but the expressions remain and are understood
figuratively.
Op de penning zijn.
Het kwartje valt.
Een duit in het zakje doen.
Op de markt is je gulden een daalder waard.
Hij heeft geen sou meer.
Een oogje in het zeil houden. (not a coin; from sailing)
Wie voor een dubbeltje geboren is, wordt nooit een kwartje.

Wasted on me, old boy.

But but but, English is just a dialect of Flemish,

A very divergent dialect! The impression I have when I hear Flemish or
Dutch is that they are just over the horizon of intelligibility.
Afrikaans, on the other hand, is just short of the horizon of
intelligibility (but I can't understand it either).

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
so I was told (by a local).
The only difference is that the English work through lunchtime, serve
much weedier beers, and have no idea how to make (or serve) proper
chips.
I'm sure Mr Lodder can expand on the relative merits of the navies.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am lucky having grown up with Danish. That gives me an idea of what
written Dutch means.

[Phil]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 04 Nov 2024 11:16:01 -0000, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou

Post by Ruud Harmsen
No problem. In Dutch we have loads of expressions with coins that no
longer exist, but the expressions remain and are understood
figuratively.
Op de penning zijn.
Het kwartje valt.
Een duit in het zakje doen.
Op de markt is je gulden een daalder waard.
Hij heeft geen sou meer.
Een oogje in het zeil houden. (not a coin; from sailing)
Wie voor een dubbeltje geboren is, wordt nooit een kwartje.

Wasted on me, old boy.

But but but, English is just a dialect of Flemish,

A very divergent dialect! The impression I have when I hear Flemish or
Dutch is that they are just over the horizon of intelligibility.
Afrikaans, on the other hand, is just short of the horizon of
intelligibility (but I can't understand it either).

I was told, a long time ago, by a Nederlander who was married to a Brit,
that Frisian is closer to English than Dutch, and more intelligible to
native English speakers than to native Dutch speakers. I can't say I'm
entirely convinced.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
 so I was told (by a local).
The only difference is that the English work through lunchtime, serve
much weedier beers, and have no idea how to make (or serve) proper chips.
I'm sure Mr Lodder can expand on the relative merits of the navies.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am lucky having grown up with Danish. That gives me an idea of what
written Dutch means.

[Silvano]

Post by Phil
I was told, a long time ago, by a Nederlander who was married to a Brit,
that Frisian is closer to English than Dutch, and more intelligible to
native English speakers than to native Dutch speakers. I can't say I'm
entirely convinced.

You can take your own test. Choose a broadcast from
<https://www.omropfryslan.nl/fy> and tell us your impressions. I
listened to about one minute and it sounds pretty much like Dutch. But
my understanding of spoken Dutch is not enough.

However, this is West Frisian and there are several Frisian idioms.
Perhaps you can listen to North Frisian (between Germany and Denmark on
the North Sea coast) here:
<https://www.oksh.de/mitmachen/senden/friiskfunk/>

[Phil]

Post by Silvano

Post by Phil
I was told, a long time ago, by a Nederlander who was married to a Brit,
that Frisian is closer to English than Dutch, and more intelligible to
native English speakers than to native Dutch speakers. I can't say I'm
entirely convinced.

You can take your own test. Choose a broadcast from
<https://www.omropfryslan.nl/fy> and tell us your impressions. I
listened to about one minute and it sounds pretty much like Dutch. But
my understanding of spoken Dutch is not enough.

Yes, Omropfryslan has been my only experience of (West) Frisian and like
you, I thought it sounded like Dutch. I have a reasonable understanding
of Dutch, though, and I find the Frisian harder to understand, but I
think I'd find it even more difficult if I had only English.

Post by Silvano
However, this is West Frisian and there are several Frisian idioms.
Perhaps you can listen to North Frisian (between Germany and Denmark on
<https://www.oksh.de/mitmachen/senden/friiskfunk/>

That one seems to be in German just at the moment -- I'll dip in again
later though. I did find some North Frisian on Youtube

and again, I'm not sure
I'd understand much if I didn't have some Dutch and German.
(He didn't try it on any Danish speakers -- I wonder how they would have
scored).

[Silvano]

Post by Phil

Post by Silvano
However, this is West Frisian and there are several Frisian idioms.
Perhaps you can listen to North Frisian (between Germany and Denmark on
<https://www.oksh.de/mitmachen/senden/friiskfunk/>

That one seems to be in German just at the moment -- I'll dip in again
later though.

AIUI, most live broadcasts are in German. But you can search that
website for previous broadcasts and postcasts. The short written
presentation tells us the language of that programme. I had found one,
but I did not save the exact link.

[Phil]

Post by Silvano

Post by Phil

Post by Silvano
However, this is West Frisian and there are several Frisian idioms.
Perhaps you can listen to North Frisian (between Germany and Denmark on
<https://www.oksh.de/mitmachen/senden/friiskfunk/>

That one seems to be in German just at the moment -- I'll dip in again
later though.

AIUI, most live broadcasts are in German. But you can search that
website for previous broadcasts and postcasts. The short written
presentation tells us the language of that programme. I had found one,
but I did not save the exact link.

Interesting. Depending on the speaker, it sounds somewhat German or
somewhat Scandinavian to my ear. I can pick up odd bits of it, but
again, I think that's because of my school German and my amateur Dutch,
rather than a close similarity to English. I should listen for longer,
though, annd see if my perception starts to change.

[Snidely]

Phil suggested that ...

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 04 Nov 2024 11:16:01 -0000, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou

Post by Ruud Harmsen
No problem. In Dutch we have loads of expressions with coins that no
longer exist, but the expressions remain and are understood
figuratively.
Op de penning zijn.
Het kwartje valt.
Een duit in het zakje doen.
Op de markt is je gulden een daalder waard.
Hij heeft geen sou meer.
Een oogje in het zeil houden. (not a coin; from sailing)
Wie voor een dubbeltje geboren is, wordt nooit een kwartje.

Wasted on me, old boy.

But but but, English is just a dialect of Flemish,

A very divergent dialect! The impression I have when I hear Flemish or
Dutch is that they are just over the horizon of intelligibility. Afrikaans,
on the other hand, is just short of the horizon of intelligibility (but I
can't understand it either).

I was told, a long time ago, by a Nederlander who was married to a Brit, that
Frisian is closer to English than Dutch, and more intelligible to native
English speakers than to native Dutch speakers. I can't say I'm entirely
convinced.

Back in the '90s and in SoCal, I attended a presentation by HP on SONET
test equipment. The HP crew was from the Isles; one of the speakers
was from Edinburgh and another from Glasgow, and they commented that we
could probably understand both of them better than they could
understand each other.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
 so I was told (by a local).
The only difference is that the English work through lunchtime, serve much
weedier beers, and have no idea how to make (or serve) proper chips.
I'm sure Mr Lodder can expand on the relative merits of the navies.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am lucky having grown up with Danish. That gives me an idea of what
written Dutch means.

I studied German, mainly as a spoken language, long enough in high
school and college that I could do short bursts of thinking in it
rather than translating. While I'm no longer near that level, I
sometimes get a clue to what the written Dutch is about. At least the
samples in AUE, where there often other clues.

/dps

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Phil
I was told, a long time ago, by a Nederlander who was married to a Brit,
that Frisian is closer to English than Dutch, and more intelligible to
native English speakers than to native Dutch speakers. I can't say I'm
entirely convinced.

Bûter, brea en griene tsiis
Is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk

[Aidan Kehoe]

[...] But but but, English is just a dialect of Flemish,

A very divergent dialect! The impression I have when I hear Flemish or Dutch
is that they are just over the horizon of intelligibility. Afrikaans, on the
other hand, is just short of the horizon of intelligibility (but I can't
understand it either).

With both Afrikaans and Dutch I have the sense that if I lived in the relevant
place for four to six months I could make proper headway in understanding and
being understood on the basis of my German; I don’t feel my English would be
any significant help at all. (Now, this ignores that Afrikaners and Dutch
people routinely have excellent English, which is likely to limit my exposure
significantly.)