Discussion:
AI thinks this [go-and-VERB] pattern exists in ENG, FR, DE
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HenHanna
2024-11-12 05:38:07 UTC
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Is that a machine translation? C'en a l'air.
not MT; 2 AI's think that this [go-and-VERB] exists in FR and DE
An AI isn't a machine?
Not MT -- i didnt ask for a translation.

one AI gave me 1,2,3 because it thinks
this [go-and-VERB] pattern exists in ENG, FR, and DE



_________________[go and] is a Modality-Marker

1. "If you keep playing with that fire, you'll go and burn yourself!"

2. "Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber
malade !"

3. "Wenn du so laut redest, wirst du noch gehen und die Nachbarn
stören!"



"If you keep procrastinating, you will end up stressed before the
deadline."

______________________________


Here’s an example using a "go-and-VERB" pattern in Latin that implies a
bad outcome:


"Ire et periclitari" (To go and endanger oneself.)


"Leo ibat ad saltum et cecidit." (The lion went to leap and fell.)
Hibou
2024-11-12 08:03:09 UTC
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Bonjour à tous,
[...] one AI gave me 1,2,3  because it thinks
this  [go-and-VERB] pattern   exists in  ENG, FR, and DE [...]
2.  "Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et tomber [...]
Cette formulation me semble boiteuse, surtout au pluriel (vous allez
aller et tomber malades). Est-ce du bon français, comme prétend l'IA de
HenHanna ?

Ne serait-ce pas mieux de dire tout simplement « ... tu vas tomber
malade » ?

Diapublication et suivi sur fr.lettres.langue.francaise.
Hibou
2024-11-12 08:42:44 UTC
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Post by Hibou
Bonjour à tous,
[...] one AI gave me 1,2,3  because it thinks
this  [go-and-VERB] pattern   exists in  ENG, FR, and DE [...]
2.  "Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et
tomber malade !" [...]
Zut ! J'avais coupé le mot 'malade'. Je le remets à sa place.
Post by Hibou
Cette formulation me semble boiteuse, surtout au pluriel (vous allez
aller et tomber malades). Est-ce du bon français, comme prétend l'IA de
HenHanna ?
Ne serait-ce pas mieux de dire tout simplement « ... tu vas tomber
malade » ?
Diapublication et suivi sur fr.lettres.langue.francaise.
Hibou
2024-11-12 13:47:48 UTC
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Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Bonjour à tous,
[...] one AI gave me 1,2,3  because it thinks
this  [go-and-VERB] pattern   exists in  ENG, FR, and DE [...]
2.  "Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et
tomber malade !" [...]
Zut ! J'avais coupé le mot 'malade'. Je le remets à sa place.
Post by Hibou
Cette formulation me semble boiteuse, surtout au pluriel (vous allez
aller et tomber malades). Est-ce du bon français, comme prétend l'IA de
HenHanna ?
« Vous allez aller » est incompréhensible. Il y faut une suite.
Mais l'enchaînement « tu vas aller et tomber malade » est incorrect.
Merci.
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Ne serait-ce pas mieux de dire tout simplement « ... tu vas tomber
malade » ?
Bien sûr.
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Diapublication et suivi sur fr.lettres.langue.francaise.
N.B.: Curieux, je voulais voir la question qui avait été posée à l'IA
mais je ne trouve pas cette publication sur alt.englih.usage
Malheureusement, l'OP est comme ça. Il omet les questions, ne dit pas de
quelle IA il s'agit, et quand elle prononce, y croit dur comme fer.

Suivi comme on veut.
Hibou
2024-11-12 13:49:58 UTC
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Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Bonjour à tous,
[...] one AI gave me 1,2,3  because it thinks
this  [go-and-VERB] pattern   exists in  ENG, FR, and DE [...]
2.  "Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et
tomber malade !" [...]
Zut ! J'avais coupé le mot 'malade'. Je le remets à sa place.
Post by Hibou
Cette formulation me semble boiteuse, surtout au pluriel (vous allez
aller et tomber malades). Est-ce du bon français, comme prétend l'IA de
HenHanna ?
« Vous allez aller » est incompréhensible. Il y faut une suite.
Mais l'enchaînement « tu vas aller et tomber malade » est incorrect.
Merci. [...]
In summary: the Hen's AI has laid a bad one, and got it wrong.
Silvano
2024-11-12 19:04:23 UTC
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Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Bonjour à tous,
[...] one AI gave me 1,2,3 because it thinks
this [go-and-VERB] pattern exists in ENG, FR, and DE [...]
2. "Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et
tomber malade !" [...]
Zut ! J'avais coupé le mot 'malade'. Je le remets à sa place.
Post by Hibou
Cette formulation me semble boiteuse, surtout au pluriel (vous allez
aller et tomber malades). Est-ce du bon français, comme prétend l'IA de
HenHanna ?
« Vous allez aller » est incompréhensible. Il y faut une suite.
Mais l'enchaînement « tu vas aller et tomber malade » est incorrect.
Merci.
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Ne serait-ce pas mieux de dire tout simplement « ... tu vas tomber
malade » ?
Bien sûr.
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Diapublication et suivi sur fr.lettres.langue.francaise.
N.B.: Curieux, je voulais voir la question qui avait été posée à l'IA
mais je ne trouve pas cette publication sur alt.englih.usage
Peut-être parce que la question n'a jamais été posée sur
alt.english.usage. alt.usage.english est autre chose.

AUE readers are free to request a translation and those who can do it
are free to improve my French. Hey, do you really expect perfect French
from an Italian who has been living and translating in Germany for forty
years and writes here acceptable English?

OK, I did study French at school, but I did it only in the first year of
the after-school care club, when I was 6 years old. In the second year
they switched to English. The rest is self-study with the obvious
advantage of speaking another Romance language as my mother tongue. For
example, is the correct article "le" or "la"? I get it right without any
effort over 90% of the time. Native English speakers can tell us about
their experience.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-12 20:51:29 UTC
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Post by Silvano
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Bonjour à tous,
[...] one AI gave me 1,2,3 because it thinks
this [go-and-VERB] pattern exists in ENG, FR, and DE [...]
2. "Si tu continues à manger autant de bonbons, tu vas aller et
tomber malade !" [...]
Zut ! J'avais coupé le mot 'malade'. Je le remets à sa place.
Post by Hibou
Cette formulation me semble boiteuse, surtout au pluriel (vous allez
aller et tomber malades). Est-ce du bon français, comme prétend l'IA de
HenHanna ?
« Vous allez aller » est incompréhensible. Il y faut une suite.
Mais l'enchaînement « tu vas aller et tomber malade » est incorrect.
Merci.
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Ne serait-ce pas mieux de dire tout simplement « ... tu vas tomber
malade » ?
Bien sûr.
Post by Hibou
Post by Hibou
Diapublication et suivi sur fr.lettres.langue.francaise.
N.B.: Curieux, je voulais voir la question qui avait été posée à l'IA
mais je ne trouve pas cette publication sur alt.englih.usage
Peut-être parce que la question n'a jamais été posée sur
alt.english.usage. alt.usage.english est autre chose.
AUE readers are free to request a translation and those who can do it
are free to improve my French. Hey, do you really expect perfect French
from an Italian who has been living and translating in Germany for forty
years and writes here acceptable English?
OK, I did study French at school, but I did it only in the first year of
the after-school care club, when I was 6 years old. In the second year
they switched to English. The rest is self-study with the obvious
advantage of speaking another Romance language as my mother tongue. For
example, is the correct article "le" or "la"? I get it right without any
effort over 90% of the time. Native English speakers can tell us about
their experience.
I imagine you can usually guess the gender from the Italian cognate.
That certainly works with Spanish, most of the time. Although I'm not a
native Spanish speaker I find it's usually much easier to guess the
gender than it is with French. If it ends in o it is likely to be
masculine, though mano is an important exception; if it ends in a it is
likely to be feminine; if it ends in a consonant it's likely to be
masculine, though this last isn't very reliable. I imagine the first
two of these work with Italian, though not the last, as you don't have
many words in Italian that end in a consonant.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Silvano
2024-11-12 20:56:06 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I imagine you can usually guess the gender from the Italian cognate.
That certainly works with Spanish, most of the time. Although I'm not a
native Spanish speaker I find it's usually much easier to guess the
gender than it is with French. If it ends in o it is likely to be
masculine, though mano is an important exception; if it ends in a it is
likely to be feminine; if it ends in a consonant it's likely to be
masculine, though this last isn't very reliable. I imagine the first two
of these work with Italian, though not the last, as you don't have many
words in Italian that end in a consonant.
Yep.
Hibou
2024-11-13 04:41:30 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I imagine you can usually guess the gender from the Italian cognate.
That certainly works with Spanish, most of the time. Although I'm not a
native Spanish speaker I find it's usually much easier to guess the
gender than it is with French. If it ends in o it is likely to be
masculine, though mano is an important exception; if it ends in a it is
likely to be feminine; if it ends in a consonant it's likely to be
masculine, though this last isn't very reliable. I imagine the first two
of these work with Italian, though not the last, as you don't have many
words in Italian that end in a consonant.
Yep.
In the thriller 'Qui a tué Bambi ?', the doctor-suspect plays a game
with the nurse-victim. He invites her to ask him questions about a dream
he's had, and - without telling her what he is doing - replies either
'Oui' or 'Non' depending on whether the question ends in a vowel or not.
In the end he explains it to her:

« Le Dr. Philipp : C'est un jeu. Il n'y a pas de rêve à deviner. Quand
la question se termine par une voyelle je réponds oui, quand c'est par
une consonne je réponds non. C'est vous qui inventez l'histoire au fur
et à mesure, en posant les questions. »

There is no dream. ... It's you who invent the story as you put your
questions.

I suppose that wouldn't work in Italian. Too biased towards yes.
Rich Ulrich
2024-11-13 06:55:29 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Nov 2024 04:41:30 +0000, Hibou
Post by Hibou
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I imagine you can usually guess the gender from the Italian cognate.
That certainly works with Spanish, most of the time. Although I'm not a
native Spanish speaker I find it's usually much easier to guess the
gender than it is with French. If it ends in o it is likely to be
masculine, though mano is an important exception; if it ends in a it is
likely to be feminine; if it ends in a consonant it's likely to be
masculine, though this last isn't very reliable. I imagine the first two
of these work with Italian, though not the last, as you don't have many
words in Italian that end in a consonant.
Yep.
In the thriller 'Qui a tué Bambi ?', the doctor-suspect plays a game
with the nurse-victim. He invites her to ask him questions about a dream
he's had, and - without telling her what he is doing - replies either
'Oui' or 'Non' depending on whether the question ends in a vowel or not.
« Le Dr. Philipp : C'est un jeu. Il n'y a pas de rêve à deviner. Quand
la question se termine par une voyelle je réponds oui, quand c'est par
une consonne je réponds non. C'est vous qui inventez l'histoire au fur
et à mesure, en posant les questions. »
There is no dream. ... It's you who invent the story as you put your
questions.
Interesting, provokes some thought.
Post by Hibou
I suppose that wouldn't work in Italian. Too biased towards yes.
"Biased towards yes" might be an advantage -- I've never
been or known an improv artist, but according to comics
mentioning improvisational theater, the guiding rule is to
respond to everything suggested with "yes" and go on from
there. I suspect that "yes, but..." may be better for humor
and worse for continuity than saying "yes, and...".

After a few seconds of thought, it occurs to me that responding
a binary Yes/No is EASY: WHICH latest-vowel (dividing them into
sets), which hand would type N-th letter of the K-th word....
--
Rich Ulrich
Hibou
2024-11-13 08:04:34 UTC
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Post by Rich Ulrich
Post by Hibou
In the thriller 'Qui a tué Bambi ?', the doctor-suspect plays a game
with the nurse-victim. He invites her to ask him questions about a dream
he's had, and - without telling her what he is doing - replies either
'Oui' or 'Non' depending on whether the question ends in a vowel or not.
« Le Dr. Philipp : C'est un jeu. Il n'y a pas de rêve à deviner. Quand
la question se termine par une voyelle je réponds oui, quand c'est par
une consonne je réponds non. C'est vous qui inventez l'histoire au fur
et à mesure, en posant les questions. »
There is no dream. ... It's you who invent the story as you put your
questions.
Interesting, provokes some thought.
Post by Hibou
I suppose that wouldn't work in Italian. Too biased towards yes.
"Biased towards yes" might be an advantage -- I've never
been or known an improv artist, but according to comics
mentioning improvisational theater, the guiding rule is to
respond to everything suggested with "yes" and go on from
there. I suspect that "yes, but..." may be better for humor
and worse for continuity than saying "yes, and...".
After a few seconds of thought, it occurs to me that responding
a binary Yes/No is EASY: WHICH latest-vowel (dividing them into
sets), which hand would type N-th letter of the K-th word....
The game is spoken, of course, one has to know how to spell, and it's
better if the other person spells the same way. "Is the dream set in the
Medical Centre/Center?" "Yes/No."
Hibou
2024-11-13 08:10:32 UTC
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Post by Silvano
AUE readers are free to request a translation and those who can do it
are free to improve my French. Hey, do you really expect perfect French
from an Italian who has been living and translating in Germany for forty
years and writes here acceptable English?
OK, I did study French at school, but I did it only in the first year of
the after-school care club, when I was 6 years old. In the second year
they switched to English. The rest is self-study with the obvious
advantage of speaking another Romance language as my mother tongue. For
example, is the correct article "le" or "la"? I get it right without any
effort over 90% of the time. Native English speakers can tell us about
their experience.
The key to French and English is to remember what d'Artagnan said (in
'Vingt ans après) : « ... l'anglais n'est que du français mal
prononcé... ». English is only badly pronounced French.
Sh. Mandrake
2024-11-13 08:39:22 UTC
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Le 13/11/2024 09:10:32 à Hibou a wroté :
[...]
Post by Hibou
The key to French and English is to remember what d'Artagnan said (in
'Vingt ans après) : « ... l'anglais n'est que du français mal
prononcé... ». English is only badly pronounced French.
Witty, but wrong.
--
Hakuna matata

Le Magicien
(The Magician only speaks in his personal name, and even then, not always.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-13 08:50:11 UTC
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Post by Sh. Mandrake
[...]
Post by Hibou
The key to French and English is to remember what d'Artagnan said (in
'Vingt ans après) : « ... l'anglais n'est que du français mal
prononcé... ». English is only badly pronounced French.
Witty, but wrong.
Yes, but it has a lot of truth. Nouns in particular are often much the same.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Aidan Kehoe
2024-11-13 09:52:55 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sh. Mandrake
[...]
Post by Hibou
The key to French and English is to remember what d'Artagnan said (in
'Vingt ans après) : « ... l'anglais n'est que du français mal
prononcé... ». English is only badly pronounced French.
Witty, but wrong.
Yes, but it has a lot of truth. Nouns in particular are often much the same.
I agree, I think written French is one of the easiest foreign languages for
English speakers. No foreign language is particularly easy for us in the way
Spanish is for Italian speakers or German for Dutch speakers.
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-13 11:20:27 UTC
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Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sh. Mandrake
[...]
Post by Hibou
The key to French and English is to remember what d'Artagnan said (in
'Vingt ans après) : « ... l'anglais n'est que du français mal
prononcé... ». English is only badly pronounced French.
Witty, but wrong.
Yes, but it has a lot of truth. Nouns in particular are often much the same.
I agree, I think written French is one of the easiest foreign languages for
English speakers.
Not spoken, alas. Portuguese and Spanish area similar case: written
Portuguese is trivially easy for Spanish speakers to understand, but
spoken Portuguese is damn near impossible (especially in Portugal --
Brazil is a little easier, and even Brazilians sometimes have
difficulty understanding what they hear in Portugal). I have read that
the same is true of Danish for Swedes.

I first became conscious of this when I started working for the CNRS:

Centre -- same as English
National -- same as English
de -- grammatical word different from English (but very easy)
la -- grammatical word different from English (but very easy)
Recherche -- similar to English
Scientifique -- slight (and systematic) difference in spelling

The word order is different, of course.
Post by Aidan Kehoe
No foreign language is particularly easy for us in the way
Spanish is for Italian speakers or German for Dutch speakers.
--
athel -- biochemist, not a physicist, but detector of crackpots
Hibou
2024-11-13 14:02:04 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Centre -- same as English
National -- same as English
de -- grammatical word different from English (but very easy)
la -- grammatical word different from English (but very easy)
Recherche -- similar to English
Scientifique -- slight (and systematic) difference in spelling
The word order is different, of course.
There is an area of French vocabulary that is only partly translatable
into English...

en colère - pissed off
grogne sociale - a sort of antonym of 'mustn't grumble'
barrage filtrant - obstructing people who have nothing to do with
your dispute
opération escargot - ditto
gilets jaunes
mouvement social (meaning antisocial)
grève - shore - I mean sure - that's all right: strike
retraite à soixante-deux ans - what?!!
aiguilleur aérien - part-time worker (air-traffic controller)

I remember people having several attempts at translating 'gilets jaunes'
when they were active, though I never saw 'yellow semmits'.

Beautiful country. How can they be so disgruntled?
Sh. Mandrake
2024-11-13 15:13:15 UTC
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Le 13/11/2024 15:02:04 à Hibou a wroté :
[...]
Post by Hibou
Beautiful country. How can they be so disgruntled?
Ce sont des enfants gâtés.
--
Hakuna matata

Le Magicien
(The Magician only speaks in his personal name, and even then, not always.)
Hibou
2024-11-14 06:50:38 UTC
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Post by Sh. Mandrake
[...]
Post by Hibou
Beautiful country. How can they be so disgruntled?
Ce sont des enfants gâtés.
Interesting. Other French people have told me the same thing. It's a
shame, but also instructive: migrating to a better climate is not enough
to make one happy.


Intéressant. D'autres Français m'ont dit la même chose lors de
conversations privées. C'est dommage - aussi salutaire pour ceux d'entre
nous - tel moi, ici en Écosse - qui rêve d'un climat plus doux. La
chaleur ne suffit pas pour rendre heureux (quoique c'est vrai que les
rues sont plus gaies quand les femmes ne sont pas emmitouflées¹).

¹Et regarder la beauté, c'est bon pour son humeur, paraît-il. Cela est
un élément de la sagesse danoise (a dit Helen Russell, dont on a parlé
naguère dans un autre fil ici).

Helmut Richter
2024-11-12 10:47:37 UTC
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Post by HenHanna
3. "Wenn du so laut redest, wirst du noch gehen und die Nachbarn
stören!"
This usage of "gehen" is not customary in the German dialects I know,
including Standard German. Maybe it exists in other dialects.

The analogous construction, but with "come" instead of "go", is sometimes
used in Swahili:

"Useme kwa sauti ndogo usije ukawasumbua majirani."

Speak with low voice that you don't come and bother the neighbours.

This is used because the negated optative has two meanings

"usiwasumbue majirani" can mean either
so that you don't bother the neighbours or
without bothering the neighbours
but the above construction has unambiguously the first meaning.

Thus, it would be interesting to find out which languages use either "go"
or "come" in this context.
--
Helmut Richter
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