"that this" vs. "this"

[Mardon]

Which of the following is correct? If both are correct, which is preferred
usage?

I think that this is a...

I think this is a...

[Robert Lieblich]

Post by Mardon
Which of the following is correct? If both are correct, which is preferred
usage?
I think that this is a...
I think this is a...

Both are correct. Which one you use depends on context. In general,
"that" is virtually mandatory when its omission would mislead the
reader. Consider, for example, this sentence: "He pointed out the car
with the red paint and the dent in the left front fender had been in a
collision." Without a "that" after "pointed out," any sane reader is
going to assume -- until he or she stumbles over "had been" -- that
what was pointed out was the car, just the car, when actually what was
pointed out was that the car had been in a collision.

More sentences are ruined by omission of "that" than by inclusion,
Just don't get caught in superfluous "that"s, as in "I would like to
think that, after all these years of effort, that we will receive the
promised reward."

To go much further, we need more context.

[Mardon]

Post by Robert Lieblich
Both are correct. Which one you use depends on context. In general,
"that" is virtually mandatory when its omission would mislead the
reader. Consider, for example, this sentence: "He pointed out the car
with the red paint and the dent in the left front fender had been in a
collision." Without a "that" after "pointed out," any sane reader is
going to assume -- until he or she stumbles over "had been" -- that
what was pointed out was the car, just the car, when actually what was
pointed out was that the car had been in a collision.
More sentences are ruined by omission of "that" than by inclusion,
Just don't get caught in superfluous "that"s, as in "I would like to
think that, after all these years of effort, that we will receive the
promised reward."
To go much further, we need more context.
--
Bob Lieblich
Who dines out on context

Your comments have been very helpful, Bob. Thanks for taking the time to
post them.

[Mark Brader]

Post by Robert Lieblich

Post by Mardon
I think that this is a...
I think this is a...

Both are correct. Which one you use depends on context. In general,
"that" is virtually mandatory when its omission would mislead the
reader. ...

I'll just add that there are many sentences where in speech the optional
"that" is safely omitted, but in writing it would be better to include it.
That's because in speech you can use inflection to mark the clause that
"that" would begin. In general, the longer and more complicated the
sentence, the more likely that it's better to use "that".

[jinhyun]

Post by Mardon
Which of the following is correct? If both are correct, which is preferred
usage?
I think that this is a...
I think this is a...

I object to the use of 'this' in the middle of a sentence, if it is in
writing. 'This' indicates that the object has been already specified
even before you say anything else about it. Unless you have talked
about it before, it is unlikely to be specific to your reader, only to
you, -- in which case it is bad writing to refer to it as 'this'.) If
you have talked about it, for continuity, you would be better off
starting the sentence with 'This'. Say: 'This, I think, is ....'. But
in speech, it is unnecessary.

[Mark Brader]

Post by jinhyun
I object to the use of 'this' in the middle of a sentence, if it is in
writing. ... for continuity, you would be better off starting the
sentence with 'This'. Say: 'This, I think, is ....'.

Don't be silly.

[jinhyun]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by jinhyun
I object to the use of 'this' in the middle of a sentence, if it is in
writing. ... for continuity, you would be better off starting the
sentence with 'This'. Say: 'This, I think, is ....'.

Don't be silly.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Unjutsly malinged? I think not."

No, I don't think I'm being silly. There are seldom good reasons for
saying 'this' rather than 'it' in writing. But when they arise, I
think 'this' ought be as close as possible to the beginning of the
sentence for continuity with the previous reference to its object; the
further away it is, the better the case for using 'it' instead, the
exception being when the subject and object are inverted in aid of
rhetorical effect, as in 'The facts are these'. I even remember
seeing this in a style manual once.
As in:
'Some men think that all women are lesbians, deep down. This, however,
is a mistake.'
and
'Some men think that all women are lesbians, deep down. But this is a
mistake.'
are all right but
'Some men think that all women are lesbians, deep down. But I think it
is a mistake.'
is better than
'Some men think that all women are lesbians, deep down. But I think
this is a mistake. '
Don't you think so? Does anybody else think so?

[Oleg Lego]

Post by jinhyun

Post by Mark Brader

Post by jinhyun
I object to the use of 'this' in the middle of a sentence, if it is in
writing. ... for continuity, you would be better off starting the
sentence with 'This'. Say: 'This, I think, is ....'.

Don't be silly.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Unjutsly malinged? I think not."

No, I don't think I'm being silly. There are seldom good reasons for
saying 'this' rather than 'it' in writing. But when they arise, I
think 'this' ought be as close as possible to the beginning of the
sentence for continuity with the previous reference to its object; the
further away it is, the better the case for using 'it' instead, the
exception being when the subject and object are inverted in aid of
rhetorical effect, as in 'The facts are these'. I even remember
seeing this in a style manual once.
'Some men think that all women are lesbians, deep down. This, however,
is a mistake.'
and
'Some men think that all women are lesbians, deep down. But this is a
mistake.'
are all right but
'Some men think that all women are lesbians, deep down. But I think it
is a mistake.'
is better than
'Some men think that all women are lesbians, deep down. But I think
this is a mistake. '
Don't you think so? Does anybody else think so?

You aren't a native English speaker, are you?
You have many interesting, but strange, ideas about our language.

[Mark Brader]

Post by jinhyun

Post by Mark Brader

Post by jinhyun
I object to the use of 'this' in the middle of a sentence, if it is in
writing. ... for continuity, you would be better off starting the
sentence with 'This'. Say: 'This, I think, is ....'.

Don't be silly.

No, I don't think I'm being silly.

Don't be silly.

[jinhyun]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by jinhyun

Post by Mark Brader

Post by jinhyun
I object to the use of 'this' in the middle of a sentence, if it is in
writing. ... for continuity, you would be better off starting the
sentence with 'This'. Say: 'This, I think, is ....'.

Don't be silly.

No, I don't think I'm being silly.

Don't be silly.
--
Mark Brader | "I think it's safe to say that no person can hope to
Toronto | achieve basic life competence without consulting my

C'mon fellas. Humor me a little here. Can you give examples of 'this'
appearing in the middle of a sentence in good written English(prose,
that is)? Only written English, mind you. I've nothing against 'this'
in the middle of a sentence in spoken English.

[HVS]

Post by jinhyun

Post by Mark Brader

Post by jinhyun

Post by Mark Brader

Post by jinhyun
I object to the use of 'this' in the middle of a sentence,
if it is in writing. ... for continuity, you would be
better off starting the sentence with 'This'. Say: 'This, I
think, is ....'.

Don't be silly.

No, I don't think I'm being silly.

Don't be silly.
--
Mark Brader | "I think it's safe to say that no person can
hope to Toronto | achieve basic life competence
basis." -- Cecil Adams

C'mon fellas. Humor me a little here. Can you give examples of
'this' appearing in the middle of a sentence in good written
English(prose, that is)? Only written English, mind you. I've
nothing against 'this' in the middle of a sentence in spoken
English.

"That this represents incorrect English is, I think, wrong."

"Jinhyun feels that using "this" in the middle of a sentence is
inadvisable. I do not believe this is a widely-held view."

[jinhyun]

Post by HVS

Post by jinhyun

Post by Mark Brader

Post by jinhyun

Post by Mark Brader

Post by jinhyun
I object to the use of 'this' in the middle of a sentence,
if it is in writing. ... for continuity, you would be
better off starting the sentence with 'This'. Say: 'This, I
think, is ....'.

Don't be silly.

No, I don't think I'm being silly.

Don't be silly.
--
Mark Brader | "I think it's safe to say that no person can
hope to Toronto | achieve basic life competence
basis." -- Cecil Adams

C'mon fellas. Humor me a little here. Can you give examples of
'this' appearing in the middle of a sentence in good written
English(prose, that is)? Only written English, mind you. I've
nothing against 'this' in the middle of a sentence in spoken
English.

"That this represents incorrect English is, I think, wrong."
"
--
Cheers, Harvey
Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I've no problems with your first example where 'this' is reasonably
close to the beginning of the sentence and moreover isn't referring to
something that was said before.
But I'd probably recast the second one a bit. (In fact most people
might but for other reasons. Most people would probably tell you you
need a 'but' or 'however' somewhere in the second sentence) But I'd
recast it as either: 'Jinhyun feels that using "this" in the middle
of a sentence is inadvisable. 'But this view is not, I believe, widely-
held' or better yet 'Jinhyun feels that using "this" in the middle of
a sentence is inadvisable. But I do not believe that it is a widely-
held view."
But thanks for your post. Perhaps more people might have agreed with
me if we'd turned back the clock to the earlier half of the twentieth
century. Indeed I'm quite sure I've seen something like this iin some
(probably dated) style manual. But in modern English, in which fewer
distinctions are observed between written and spoken English,
misgivings about the use of 'this' right in the middle of a sentence,
away from both its beginning and end have probably completely
vanished. Nonetheless, out of academic interest, I'd still like to
see all the examples the members of this site can muster of such uses
of 'this' right in the middle, away from both the beginning and end in
good written English prose, not contrived ad-hoc for the occasion.
Perhaps, Donna and the others can oblige me. By the bye, Donna, you'd
given me some instructions for searching a certain literary site for
quotations containing certain words and phrases. I've forgotten what
you'd told me, and mislaid your original post. Could you please repeat
that advice? Thanks.

[LFS]

jinhyun wrote:

Nonetheless, out of academic interest, I'd still like to

Post by jinhyun
see all the examples the members of this site can muster of such uses
of 'this' right in the middle, away from both the beginning and end in
good written English prose, not contrived ad-hoc for the occasion.

I'm not sure what you would count as "good written English prose" but
here are some examples taken at random from three different articles
which I happen to have open on my PC at the moment, all published in
well-regarded academic journals (I've omitted the refernces for brevity
but can supply them on request.)

Article 1:

The earlier versions of this paper used the fairy tale metamorphosis of
frog into prince to illustrate aspects of their argument. One referee
commented that the difficulty of sustaining the metaphor weakened the
structure. On reflection, the authors agreed with this and, a little
reluctantly, amended the paper accordingly.

Analysis of US demand for reporting on internal control demonstrated
that doubts about this remain unresolved.

But to what extent has the opportunity identified for extending this
advantage been exploited by internal auditors?

Article 2:

There were two major components of this change within NP.

The understanding of this reciprocal relationship is a feature of our
interpretive perspective.

It has to be recognised that the interpretive perspective offered in
this paper requires further longitudinal studies to enable it to be
extended and refined.

Artocle 3:

The independent evaluation of the first year of this initiative reports
the majority view that any significant reduction in bureaucracy had yet
to be experienced.

It would be foolish to attribute this to the reform movement.

[jinhyun]

Post by LFS
I'm not sure what you would count as "good written English prose" but
here are some examples taken at random from three different articles
which I happen to have open on my PC at the moment, all published in
well-regarded academic journals (I've omitted the refernces for brevity
but can supply them on request.)
The earlier versions of this paper used the fairy tale metamorphosis of
frog into prince

No complaints here. The 'this' isn't referring to something mentioned
before but is indicated in the current sentence.

to illustrate aspects of their argument. One referee

Post by LFS
commented that the difficulty of sustaining the metaphor weakened the
structure. On reflection, the authors agreed with this and, a little

I'm not sure the 'with this' is at all necessary.

Post by LFS
reluctantly, amended the paper accordingly.
Analysis of US demand for reporting on internal control demonstrated
that doubts about this remain unresolved.

I'd probably say 'These doubts remain unresolved as analysis of US
demand for reporting on internal control demonstrates'
'

Post by LFS
But to what extent has the opportunity identified for extending this
advantage been exploited by internal auditors?

I think I'd need more context to recast this. Has only the advantage
been talked about before or has the oppportunity also been discussed.
Honestly, this doesn't sound like very good prose to me, one way or
another.

Post by LFS
There were two major components of this change within NP.

I'd probably recast it as: 'This change within NP had two major
components.' The original leaves you in doubt whether it was the
componens or the change that was in NP.

Post by LFS
The understanding of this reciprocal relationship is a feature of our
interpretive perspective.

Understanding this reciprocal relationship is a feature of our
interpretive perspective.

Post by LFS
It has to be recognised that the interpretive perspective offered in
this paper requires further longitudinal studies to enable it to be
extended and refined.

No problems here. The reference of 'this' is within the sentence

Post by LFS
The independent evaluation of the first year of this initiative reports
the majority view that any significant reduction in bureaucracy had yet
to be experienced.

If only the initiative had been talked about before, I'd probably
say:' This initiative has been independently evaluated for the first
year; and the evaluation reports the majority view that any
significant reduction in bureaucracy had yet
to be experienced.' To cram both the fact that there had been an
independent evaluation and its results in a single clause seems like
patent overloading to me.

Post by LFS
It would be foolish to attribute this to the reform movement.

I'd probably have 'it' instead of 'this'

Post by LFS
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Hi. Thanks a lot for your post. I'm not quite convinced that this is
quite the 'good English prose' I was looking for. Much of it seems to
me to be stuffy, overloaded and jargon-ridden. But that just might be
modern academic prose in a nutshell. I was thinking more like Winston
Churchill for example. But thanks a lot again.

[Donna Richoux]

Post by jinhyun
Perhaps, Donna and the others can oblige me. By the bye, Donna, you'd
given me some instructions for searching a certain literary site for
quotations containing certain words and phrases. I've forgotten what
you'd told me, and mislaid your original post. Could you please repeat
that advice? Thanks.

If I recommended it, it is surely on Intro B at the website:

http://www.alt-usage-english.org/

Check the section "Historical English, and English Literature".

I find your challenge about "this" entirely too sweeping and too silly
to bother with; there's a number of uses of "this" within sentences and
you're going to have to narrow it down to some particular function.

All in all, I suspect it's exactly the same point that I and Strunk &
White made about "however" -- certain word orders convey more *emphasis*
and therefore make stronger writing. That is not to say the other word
orders are wrong or nonexistent.