Please explain the metaphor "soapbox"

[Per Stromgren]

(Why on earth did I not look up a dictionary before asking? Well, I
just did, and want to refine my question a little bit. /Per)

A dictionary says about soapbox "Speaking one's views passionately or
self-importantly." Could you in view of this, comment the following
examples, taken from alt.usage.english discussions:

1. "Jitze (dismounts from soap-box) Shouldn't that be: (dismounts the
soapbox)? Perhaps, if the soapbox, was mounted on something..."

Just word-play?

2. "But it is their particular soapbox, just as some of the rest of us
have ours..."

Could "the soapbox" be the subject of the discussion?

3. "I should warn you that this is a pretty hefty soapbox I've just
stepped up on..."

Is this speaking one's views *very* passionately or self-importantly,
or what?

4. "...all reaching to yank the soapbox out from under me..."

Get the person to stop talking?.

Per.

[Dónal]

Post by Per Stromgren
1. "Jitze (dismounts from soap-box) Shouldn't that be: (dismounts the
soapbox)? Perhaps, if the soapbox, was mounted on something..."

No. When you get on something, you mount it. It's usually used when you
mount and dismounta horse, for example.

Post by Per Stromgren
2. "But it is their particular soapbox, just as some of the rest of us
have ours..."
Could "the soapbox" be the subject of the discussion?

Yes. It means 'It is their personal oint of view that they preach'

Post by Per Stromgren
3. "I should warn you that this is a pretty hefty soapbox I've just
stepped up on..."

I think it is a warnng that the speech is going to be long

Post by Per Stromgren
4. "...all reaching to yank the soapbox out from under me..."

Yes..so they can speak.

[Lars Eighner]

In our last episode,
<***@4ax.com>,
the lovely and talented Per Stromgren

Post by Per Stromgren
(Why on earth did I not look up a dictionary before asking? Well, I
just did, and want to refine my question a little bit. /Per)
A dictionary says about soapbox "Speaking one's views passionately or
self-importantly." Could you in view of this, comment the following
1. "Jitze (dismounts from soap-box) Shouldn't that be: (dismounts the
soapbox)? Perhaps, if the soapbox, was mounted on something..."

This is in the style of computer chat room actions. It means: he
dismounts his soapbox. I'm not prepared to discuss telegraphic
or chat room English, but will only say many expressions are
shortened.

Post by Per Stromgren
Just word-play?
2. "But it is their particular soapbox, just as some of the rest of us
have ours..."
Could "the soapbox" be the subject of the discussion?

This isn't clear without more context. It could be just as you
say. It could also be "They have their time and place to express
themselves, and we have ours."

Post by Per Stromgren
3. "I should warn you that this is a pretty hefty soapbox I've just
stepped up on..."
Is this speaking one's views *very* passionately or self-importantly,
or what?

Probably both. This is, of course, not a fixed expression, but is
playing with the metaphor.

Post by Per Stromgren
4. "...all reaching to yank the soapbox out from under me..."
Get the person to stop talking?.

Yes.

I should say this is very dead metaphor. Only a few living people
have ever seen such a soapbox, and fewer have seen anyone giving a
speech while standing on a soapbox. The metaphor is dead and not
really a metaphor any longer because because in ordinary speech no
one thinks of its old literal meaning anymore. Most of the examples
you have given are attempts to revive the metaphor and play with it.
There is no assurance that in a less erudite group these new
expressions will be received as they were intended.

[Donna Richoux]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[MC]

Post by Donna Richoux
I thought this was associated with Hyde Park Corner in London, but two
dictionaries suggest it is an American term, not a British one.
"Tub-thumper" is given as the UK equivalent.

Actually, Speakers Corner -- not the same as Hyde Park Corner, even
though it's in Hyde Park.

[Donna Richoux]

Post by MC

Post by Donna Richoux
I thought this was associated with Hyde Park Corner in London, but two
dictionaries suggest it is an American term, not a British one.
"Tub-thumper" is given as the UK equivalent.

Actually, Speakers Corner -- not the same as Hyde Park Corner, even
though it's in Hyde Park.

I see, thank you. And do people still go there and, uh, thump their
tubs?

[Ben Zimmer]

Post by Donna Richoux
I thought this was associated with Hyde Park Corner in London, but two
dictionaries suggest it is an American term, not a British one.

I wonder if that's good information. _The New Shorter
Oxford English Dictionary_, a British dictionary, doesn't
say the *noun* "soapbox", meaning "A crate or case used as a
makeshift stand for a public speaker" is originally a US
term. It does, however, say that the *verb* "soapbox",
meaning "Speak from or as from a soapbox" is "Orig. US".

Earliest cite in OED2 for the figurative sense is from a US source--
_The Road_, by Jack London (1907): "I get up on a soap-box to trot out
the particular economic bees that buzz in my bonnet." Full text is at:

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/London/Writings/TheRoad/bulls.html

OED2's first cite for the attributive usage "soap-box orator" is from
1918, in National Geographic. ProQuest finds an earlier cite for
"soap-box orator", from a June 12, 1906 New York Times article
(predating even the Jack London quote).

[Mike Lyle]

Bob Cunningham <***@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<***@4ax.com>...
[...]

There are two reasons why I don't believe "tub-thumper" is a
UK equivalent or in any other way an equivalent of
"soap-boxer".
First, it doesn't seem right. A tub-thumper should be
someone who thumps on a tub to get attention or to add
emphasis to what he or she is saying. A soap-boxer is
someone who stands on a makeshift platform so that more
people can see him and hear him.
Second, _The New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary_ doesn't
say they're equivalent, and its definition of "tub-thumper"
isn't at all the same as its definition of "soap-boxer".
tub-thumper
1 Orig., a preacher who thumps the pulpit for
emphasis. Now usu. (gen.), a violent or
declamatory preacher or orator, a ranter. M17.

[...]

A man standing in a pulpit does suggest one standing in a tub;
particularly as pulpits are typically polygonal or round.

Mike.

[John Dean]

Post by Per Stromgren
(Why on earth did I not look up a dictionary before asking? Well, I
just did, and want to refine my question a little bit. /Per)
A dictionary says about soapbox "Speaking one's views passionately or
self-importantly." Could you in view of this, comment the following
1. "Jitze (dismounts from soap-box) Shouldn't that be: (dismounts the
soapbox)? Perhaps, if the soapbox, was mounted on something..."

OED has dismount used both transitively and intransitively. And insists
soap-box is hyphenated.

The then British PM John Major actually used a soap-box in one Election
Campaign
--
John 'Save the Edwina jokes for your next stag / hen night' Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply

[Don Aitken]

Post by John Dean
The then British PM John Major actually used a soap-box in one Election
Campaign

Well, a box anyway. Does soap even come in boxes you could stand on
these days?

I seem to remember reading that the box Major stood on had to be
specially made, since nobody these days uses wooden boxes strong
enough to stand on, for soap or anything else.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Don Aitken

Post by John Dean
The then British PM John Major actually used a soap-box in one Election
Campaign

Well, a box anyway. Does soap even come in boxes you could stand on
these days?

I seem to remember reading that the box Major stood on had to be
specially made, since nobody these days uses wooden boxes strong
enough to stand on, for soap or anything else.

It's impossible to find an antique, in England???

Jan

[Laura F Spira]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Don Aitken

Post by John Dean
The then British PM John Major actually used a soap-box in one Election
Campaign

Well, a box anyway. Does soap even come in boxes you could stand on
these days?

I seem to remember reading that the box Major stood on had to be
specially made, since nobody these days uses wooden boxes strong
enough to stand on, for soap or anything else.

Well, that's not what his adviser implies, but then who believes
political advisers?
Key Issues in the 1992 Campaign
...in Luton on 28 March he produced the now famous
soapbox - an innovation which according to Prime
Ministerial adviser Sarah Hogg came to him on the
spur of the moment. Amidst much barracking, and to
the consternation of the detectives minding him, Mr
Major verbally battled with the crowds on a
hand-held megaphone.
I agree, you couldn't find a proper wooden box just laying about in a
corner somewhere, not these days. You'd have to hunt for one or have it
made.

Post by J. J. Lodder
It's impossible to find an antique, in England???

In England, an antique is something like a dainty porcelain snuffbox
from Dresden made in 1742, not a rough wooden crate that held groceries
in 1910. I don't think there's a market for them.

I agree that to describe such a crate as an antique might be stretching
the meaning of the word but in England there's a market for all kinds of
stuff these days. Advertising memorabilia is widely collected - see for
example http://www.robertopiecollection.com/

[Charles Riggs]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 10:21:15 +0100, Laura F Spira

Post by Laura F Spira

In England, an antique is something like a dainty porcelain snuffbox
from Dresden made in 1742, not a rough wooden crate that held groceries
in 1910. I don't think there's a market for them.

I agree that to describe such a crate as an antique might be stretching
the meaning of the word but in England there's a market for all kinds of
stuff these days. Advertising memorabilia is widely collected - see for
example http://www.robertopiecollection.com/

The original meaning of memorabilia having altered to now mean "crap
one buys at the cheap with hopes of selling dear, making a
as-swift-as-possible financial killing from".

Second only to TV's Life-in-a-Fishbowl programs, in the
disgusting-to-observe category, are the programs showing greedy
investors fawning over some old piece of rubbish the presenter is
holding up for view, eagerly asking him for a price estimate. "Oh my",
they gurgle, "I had no *idea* it was worth *that* much".

Excuse me while I barf.

[Maria Conlon]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Bob Cunningham]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 11:00:01 +0200, ***@euronet.nl (Donna
Richoux) said:

[ . . . ]

In England, an antique is something like a dainty porcelain snuffbox
from Dresden made in 1742, not a rough wooden crate that held groceries
in 1910. I don't think there's a market for them.

As a matter of side interest, an antique soapbox is not
inconceivable. The oldest meaning for "soapbox" in the
1980s _Supplement to the OED_ is

A box for holding soap; orig. and still occas., a small
receptacle for a ball or bar of soap.

There's an 1834 quotation that says in part

A thing with a lid which is found on almost every
wash-stand in Great Britain

It seems quite possible that, since everyone had a soapbox
of that sort, some oofy people may have had dainty porcelain
soapboxes that could have become valuable antiques.

Do any modern-day UKers have soapboxes on their wash-stands?

But the jury is still out as to whether the crate, and the name of the
crate, and the metaphor involving the crate, is from the UK or US. Can
anyone quote the OED on this?

Ben Zimmer already has, with respect to the figurative use.
See Message-ID: <***@midway.uchicago.edu>.

The original _OED_ has for "soapbox"

A wooden box in which soap is packed; used, esp. in,
U.S., as a makeshift stand by a speaker.

Their not including the "box in which soap is packed" under
"esp. in U.S." implies that it was not necessarily
originally a U.S. use.

There's an _OED_ quotation dated 1928 that shows "soapbox"
in the figurative sense was then an established use in
Australia:

To use the language of Australian politics, 'Soapbox
must be met by soapbox.'

But if "soapbox" in the sense "a box to put soap in" had
never been coined, it could be coined on any given day by
any English speaker in the world. I have a box that I keep
miscellaneous screws in. I am now going to call it for the
first time my screw box*. Fifty years from now, someone in
the UK who has never heard of my screw box may use that term
to refer to a box they keep screws in. That the term was
originally used in the U.S. will have no importance and no
significance.

Similar remarks could apply to "avocado box", "film box",
and "paper-clip box". Why should "soap box" in the sense "a
box to put soap in" deserve special discussion?

* Yeah, I know, "screw box" is an easy target for off-color
interpretations. If anyone wants to follow that line of
thought, have fun.

[Mike Lyle]

Donna Richoux wibbled

Post by J. J. Lodder
It's impossible to find an antique, in England???

In England, an antique is something like a dainty porcelain
snuffbox from Dresden made in 1742, not a rough wooden crate that
held groceries in 1910. I don't think there's a market for them.

Indeed. A rule of thumb w/r/t old things here, borne out by the OED, is
"?old? with reference to antiques is frequently interpreted to mean
?more than 100 years old?". Soapboxes have some years to go yet.

Until, I suppose, about 1980 the 100-year rule was applied strictly:
you could get beautiful furniture for a song as a result. Now you can
see a giant Swatch, intended for shop display, for sale in an antique
shop in Carmarthen.

Mike.

[Raymond S. Wise]

Donna Richoux wibbled

Post by J. J. Lodder
It's impossible to find an antique, in England???

In England, an antique is something like a dainty porcelain
snuffbox from Dresden made in 1742, not a rough wooden crate that
held groceries in 1910. I don't think there's a market for them.

Indeed. A rule of thumb w/r/t old things here, borne out by the OED, is
"'old' with reference to antiques is frequently interpreted to mean
'more than 100 years old'". Soapboxes have some years to go yet.
Jac

I was under the impression that that was the legal definition, at least in
the US, but the following appears to say something a bit different:

From
http://www.oldandsold.com/articles01/article505.shtml


[quote]

WHEN DOES AN ITEM stop being just "old" and become eligible for the
veneration of being called "antique"? In 1930 Congress passed a law stating
that antiques are items made prior to the year 1830. This is the legal
definition, which is used chiefly for import duties and taxes.

Today there is a general agreement among dealers and collectors alike that
anything made one hundred or more years ago is entitled to be called an
antique. This is the age usually referred to in speaking of antique
furniture, and the most commonly used meaning of the word.

[end quote]

[Sara Moffat Lorimer]

Post by Raymond S. Wise
From
http://www.oldandsold.com/articles01/article505.shtml
[quote]
WHEN DOES AN ITEM stop being just "old" and become eligible for the
veneration of being called "antique"? In 1930 Congress passed a law stating
that antiques are items made prior to the year 1830. This is the legal
definition, which is used chiefly for import duties and taxes.
Today there is a general agreement among dealers and collectors alike that
anything made one hundred or more years ago is entitled to be called an
antique. This is the age usually referred to in speaking of antique
furniture, and the most commonly used meaning of the word.
[end quote]

Then there's "vintage," which seems to mean "not new, not an antique,
and probably with some kitchy pop-culture value."

A used-clothing store I used to work at sorted dresses into Contemporary
(a.k.a. Women's Contemporugly), 1970's and 1960's,
Vintage, and Antique.

[John Hall]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:51:32 -0400, "Don Phillipson"

Not quite "an authority." The origins are simple: that
ordinary people making public speeches (common in Britain
only since approx. 1840) had no access to formal theatres
or rostrums, therefore stood up on (wooden) soap boxes
(easily available) in order to reach larger audiences.

You may also see references to "Hyde Park corner", and area of a
public park near the centre of London, England, which was famous as a
location for people standing on soap boxes to address the crowd.

Brit-resident Brits: Does that still happen at HPc?

[Don Aitken]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:56:11 GMT, John Hall

Post by John Hall
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:51:32 -0400, "Don Phillipson"

Not quite "an authority." The origins are simple: that
ordinary people making public speeches (common in Britain
only since approx. 1840) had no access to formal theatres
or rostrums, therefore stood up on (wooden) soap boxes
(easily available) in order to reach larger audiences.

You may also see references to "Hyde Park corner", and area of a
public park near the centre of London, England, which was famous as a
location for people standing on soap boxes to address the crowd.
Brit-resident Brits: Does that still happen at HPc?

As MC has pointed out, Speaker's Corner is different from Hyde Park
Corner. It's nearly a mile away, at Marble Arch. This is a frequent
cause of confusion for American tourists.

People do still speak at Speaker's Corner. There is a book by
Heathcote Williams, called, I think, "The Speakers", which profiles
some of the regulars. As you can imagine, they tend to be a pretty
obsessive bunch; it takes an odd personality to go on ranting at a
floating audience of whom 99% are tourists and about 75% foreigners,
and very few of whom pay attention to the same speaker for more than
two or three minutes. The fact that amplification is not allowed,
together with the location right next to a busy main raod and lots of
buses running their engines at the adjacent bus-stops, means that only
a very limited number of people can hear what is being said.

The usual accessory these days is not a box, soap or otherwise, but a
folding ladder, which has the added advantage of giving you something
to hold onto with one hand while making dramatic gestures with the
other.

[John Dean]

Post by Don Aitken
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:56:11 GMT, John Hall

Post by John Hall
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:51:32 -0400, "Don Phillipson"

Not quite "an authority." The origins are simple: that
ordinary people making public speeches (common in Britain
only since approx. 1840) had no access to formal theatres
or rostrums, therefore stood up on (wooden) soap boxes
(easily available) in order to reach larger audiences.

You may also see references to "Hyde Park corner", and area of a
public park near the centre of London, England, which was famous as a
location for people standing on soap boxes to address the crowd.
Brit-resident Brits: Does that still happen at HPc?

As MC has pointed out, Speaker's Corner is different from Hyde Park
Corner. It's nearly a mile away, at Marble Arch. This is a frequent
cause of confusion for American tourists.
People do still speak at Speaker's Corner. There is a book by
Heathcote Williams, called, I think, "The Speakers", which profiles
some of the regulars.

That was published in the 60s and sadly bears no resemblance to the
Speakers' Corner of Today. The book was also, IIRC, turned into a stage
play. I would recommend it as a very entertaining slice of London history.

The legend has it that Speakers' Corner came to exist as a consequence of
the practice of those about to be executed at Tyburn being permitted to
address the crowd (Tyburn was where Marble Arch is now).
--
John Dean
Oxford
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