Post by GistakPost by Carmen L. AbruzziPost by GistakPost by Harvey Van SickleOn 2/6/05 6:14 PM, in article
Post by Harvey Van SickleOn 2/5/05 2:59 PM, in article
Post by Harvey Van SicklePost by Carmen L. AbruzziSure, they say "irony", but they mean "sarcasm".
Yeah, right.
Which is irony AND sarcasm. They're often used together.
They are indeed, but that comment was pure sarcasm -- there was
no irony in it at all. Not even a bit.
So, when you said, "yeah, right" you actually MEANT that yes, you
think that the previous statement was true? Well, there you have
it. I assumed that you were using irony, saying words of
agreement, but actually disagreeing.
That's the point: "saying words of agreement, but actually
disagreeing" is sarcasm. It's not irony.
Not according to my dictionaries, which I'll quote below.
Post by Carmen L. AbruzziPost by GistakYou have it exactly wrong, and if you're serious, then this situation is
remarkably ironic, and verges on surreal.
Irony is exactly what you say it isn't (it also means other things, like a
turn of events that would not be expected from the circumstances).
I can see how the subtle distinction might be elusive, but
statements such as "yeah, right" are not ironic if everyone
understands that the opposite of what is said is what is
meant.
According to my dictionaries, irony is when you intend the person to know
that you mean the opposite of what you say.
Lord, that's like saying that a secret is when you intend
the person to know that you're keeping something from him.
Post by GistakWhen you intend this to be
hurtful, that's sarcasm.
And when you intend him to be hurt by his lack of knowledge,
that's a surprise.
Where do they come up with these "definitions"?
Post by GistakPost by Carmen L. AbruzziNow, if someone does not grasp that what is meant is
the opposite of what is said, that would be ironic, and one
might say "ironically, she didn't catch the sarcastic tone
and thought they were in complete agreement".
Post by GistakSarcasm is a biting or stinging remark (that often uses irony, but doesn't
have to).
No, no.
Yes! Yes!
Post by Carmen L. AbruzziSaying, "you're a fat, drunken slob" to a fat
drunken slob is not sarcasm, it's just being blunt.
I would agree with that.
Post by Carmen L. AbruzziSaying,
"How charming you are" to a fat, drunken slob is sarcasm.
AND irony. According to the dictionaries below. I don't know which ones
you're using.
I have no need of that hypothesis. Anyway, it's well known
that dictionaries are forced by the council to carry
obsolete and unaccepted meanings.
Post by GistakPost by Carmen L. AbruzziIt would be ironic only if the fat drunken slob takes it as
a compliment.
I completely understand what you're saying the word means. I think you may
be wrong. Or at least, I don't think that I'm wrong.
No one thinks they're wrong.
Yeah, right, some help!
Post by GistakPost by Carmen L. AbruzziPost by Gistakhttp://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=define%3A+irony&btnG=Search
Yes, that page is egregiously setting forth a great deal of
misinformation.
That page is merely google's aggregation of definitions for the word that
exist on the Web.
Mind you, I'm not saying that your definition is wrong. It isn't. It's just
that the word ALSO refers to saying one thing, while intending the reader or
listener to understand that you mean the opposite.
So here are some dictionary definitions. Interestingly, the British sources
seem to say that sarcasm is a biting remark that ALWAYS uses irony (the
saying of one thing while intending to convey the opposite). The American
sources seem to say that sarcasm often or usually does, but doesn't have to.
Note that BOTH American and British sources say that a main definition of
irony is to say one thing, but intend to convey the opposite.
Merriam-Webster "IRONY"
http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=irony
"the use of words to express something other than and especially the
opposite of the literal meaning"
Bah!
Post by GistakMerriam-Webster "SARCASM"
http://m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=sarcasm
"a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give
pain"
Stuff and nonsense! Sure, sarcasm can be painful, but it
need not be.
Post by GistakAmerican Heritage Dictionary "IRONY"
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=irony
"The use of words to express something different from and often opposite to
their literal meaning"
Nonsense, that's sarcasm.
Post by GistakAmerican Heritage Dictionary "SARCASM"
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sarcasm
"A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound"
Well, that's a bit harsh. It's perfectly possible to be
sarcastic in a gentle and friendly way.
Post by GistakCambridge "IRONY"
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=42023&dict=CALD
"a means of expression which suggests a different, usually humorous or
Her voice heavy with irony, Simone said, "We're so pleased you were able to
stay so long." (= Her voice made it obvious they were not pleased)."
The only thing ironic about this is the use of the word
"irony" to mean "sarcasm". It would be sarcastic if they
were deliberately using the word "irony" to mock the British
misuse of the term, but I don't think that's what's going
on. If it is, then it's ironic that I'm arguing that this
is an example of the misuse of the term "irony".
Post by GistakCambridge "SARCASM" [note: this dictionary seems to say that the only
difference is that sarcasm is always intended to hurt, whereas irony isn't]
Pfft! Fiddlesticks!
Post by Gistakhttp://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=69834&dict=CALD
"the use of remarks which clearly mean the opposite of what they say, and
which are made in order to hurt someone's feelings or to criticize something
in an amusing way"
"Or to criticize something in an amusing way". Well now,
we're getting somewhere. They seem to be at least admitting
that sarcasm need not be intended to hurt, and may be
amusing, but "criticize" does put a bit more of a damper on
the term than we should like.
Post by GistakThe Compact Oxford Dictionary (sorry, no link, since it's on my desk)
"IRONY"
Only two definitions. I'll include them both, since you can't go see them
1. The expression of meaning through the use of language which normally
signifies the opposite, typically for humorous effect.
That's sarcasm.
Post by Gistak2. A state of affairs that appears perversely contrary to what one expects.
Leave out the bit about perversion and you've got it.
Post by GistakThe Compact Oxford Dictionary "SARCASM" (again, like the Cambridge, the only
"The use of irony to mock or convey contempt"
I haven't looked up any others.
P
Look, I will never accept the use of "irony" to refer to
merely saying the opposite of what one means as a jocular
way of pointing out the obvious. The usage might be loosely
described as ironic, but the effect is sarcasm, and sarcasm
need not be intended to mock or convey contempt, let alone
cut or wound. In fact it's rather ironic that the
dictionaries attribute these abilities to mere words in the
first place. No, sarcasm is often intended merely to prod,
to test, to see how one's friends will respond to one
pointing out that they obviously are in a situation just the
opposite of what one is saying. Those who do take offense,
who do believe that one meant to be hurtful, those are the
dangerous ones. The ones who accept it cheerfully and dish
it right back in the same manner are more or less OK.
Would you really say that someone telling a friend who's
just climbed out of a mudhole after slipping and falling in,
"my, you're looking fine tonight" was being 'ironic', rather
than 'sarcastic'? Speaking personally for myself, I can't
imagine doing so.