Bulwark

[Guy Barry]

Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister thinks
it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be /'bUlwArk/ or
BULL-wark.

That's definitely not how I say it - it's /'***@k/ with a schwa in the
second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides recommend
pronouncing the second syllable like "work". My dictionary recommends
/'***@k/ with the "w" silent, identical to "bullock", but I don't think I've
heard that for a long time.

[Sara Lorimer]

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister thinks
it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be /'bUlwArk/ or
BULL-wark.
second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides recommend
pronouncing the second syllable like "work". My dictionary recommends
heard that for a long time.

BULL-ark, here, with the "ark" being sort of an "urk" or just an "rk."
It's similar to "bullock," but not identical. (Sorry, I don't know ASCII
IPA.)

[Jerry Friedman]

Well how do you pronounce this one then?  The British Prime Minister thinks
it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be /'bUlwArk/ or
BULL-wark.
second syllable (BULL-wuhk).  Some of the pronunciation guides recommend
pronouncing the second syllable like "work".  My dictionary recommends
heard that for a long time.

AHD gives only /'***@rk/ and /'bUl,wOrk/ (with the "war" vowel, which
makes sense), and I'd probably use either of those two. M-W gives
those two with the alternative of the "dull" vowel /V/ in the first
syllable, but says that in the sense of "the side of a ship above the
upper deck —usually used in plural", it can be /'bVl'Ak/.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Guy Barry]

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister thinks
it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be /'bUlwArk/ or
BULL-wark.
second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides recommend
pronouncing the second syllable like "work".

Sorry, that was an error. I meant with the vowel of "pork" (i.e.
/'bUlwO:k/, or in rhotic dialects /'bUlwOrk/, as Jerry stated in his
response).

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister thinks
it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be /'bUlwArk/ or
BULL-wark.
second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides

recommend

Post by Guy Barry
pronouncing the second syllable like "work".

Sorry, that was an error. I meant with the vowel of "pork" (i.e.
/'bUlwO:k/, or in rhotic dialects /'bUlwOrk/, as Jerry stated in his
response).

I avoid saying it. I always feel it should be "BULL-uk", but prefer
equal stress "bull-wahk" to either "bull-work" or "bull-walk". I would
never say it aloud if I could help it.

[Dr Nick]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime
Minister thinks it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that
would be /'bUlwArk/ or BULL-wark.
in the second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation
guides

recommend

Post by Guy Barry
pronouncing the second syllable like "work".

Sorry, that was an error. I meant with the vowel of "pork" (i.e.
/'bUlwO:k/, or in rhotic dialects /'bUlwOrk/, as Jerry stated in his
response).

I avoid saying it. I always feel it should be "BULL-uk", but prefer
equal stress "bull-wahk" to either "bull-work" or "bull-walk". I would
never say it aloud if I could help it.

I'm in a similar position, particularly given the proximity of gunwales.

[Peter Brooks]

Post by Dr Nick

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Guy Barry

Well how do you pronounce this one then?  The British Prime
Minister thinks it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that
would be /'bUlwArk/ or BULL-wark.
in the second syllable (BULL-wuhk).  Some of the pronunciation
guides

recommend

pronouncing the second syllable like "work".

Sorry, that was an error.  I meant with the vowel of "pork" (i.e.
/'bUlwO:k/, or in rhotic dialects /'bUlwOrk/, as Jerry stated in his
response).

I avoid saying it. I always feel it should be "BULL-uk", but prefer
equal stress "bull-wahk" to either "bull-work" or "bull-walk". I would
never say it aloud if I could help it.

I'm in a similar position, particularly given the proximity of gunwales.

Preferably not too close a proximity.

[bob]

Post by Dr Nick

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Guy Barry

Well how do you pronounce this one then?  The British Prime
Minister thinks it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that
would be /'bUlwArk/ or BULL-wark.
in the second syllable (BULL-wuhk).  Some of the pronunciation
guides

recommend

pronouncing the second syllable like "work".

Sorry, that was an error.  I meant with the vowel of "pork" (i.e.
/'bUlwO:k/, or in rhotic dialects /'bUlwOrk/, as Jerry stated in his
response).

I avoid saying it. I always feel it should be "BULL-uk", but prefer
equal stress "bull-wahk" to either "bull-work" or "bull-walk". I would
never say it aloud if I could help it.

I'm in a similar position, particularly given the proximity of gunwales.

There seems to be some general rule that words of a nautical flavour
have a pronunciation grossly out of line with their spelling.

I was leaning against the bulwark, with my elbow on the gunwhale,
taking a rest having just helped to haul on the topgallant halyard,
when the boatswain came out of the forecastle and asked me to speak to
the purser about the current state of the victuals.

Robin

[Robert Bannister]

Post by bob

Post by Dr Nick

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime
Minister thinks it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that
would be /'bUlwArk/ or BULL-wark.
in the second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation
guides

recommend

Post by Guy Barry
pronouncing the second syllable like "work".

Sorry, that was an error. I meant with the vowel of "pork" (i.e.
/'bUlwO:k/, or in rhotic dialects /'bUlwOrk/, as Jerry stated in his
response).

I avoid saying it. I always feel it should be "BULL-uk", but prefer
equal stress "bull-wahk" to either "bull-work" or "bull-walk". I would
never say it aloud if I could help it.

I'm in a similar position, particularly given the proximity of gunwales.

There seems to be some general rule that words of a nautical flavour
have a pronunciation grossly out of line with their spelling.
I was leaning against the bulwark, with my elbow on the gunwhale,
taking a rest having just helped to haul on the topgallant halyard,
when the boatswain came out of the forecastle and asked me to speak to
the purser about the current state of the victuals.
Robin

Applause. I suppose the wind at the top of the masts blows a number of
consonants away.

[R H Draney]

Post by Jerry Friedman
makes sense), and I'd probably use either of those two. M-W gives
those two with the alternative of the "dull" vowel /V/ in the first
syllable, but says that in the sense of "the side of a ship above the
upper deck =97usually used in plural", it can be /'bVl'Ak/.

Synchronicity alert: a thread started in the last two days on the "A Way With
Words" blog suggests that "the 'war' vowel" is geographically ambiguous; in some
parts of the American South, "war" rhymes with "car"....r

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by R H Draney

makes sense), and I'd probably use either of those two.  M-W gives
those two with the alternative of the "dull" vowel /V/ in the first
syllable, but says that in the sense of "the side of a ship above the
upper deck =97usually used in plural", it can be /'bVl'Ak/.

Synchronicity alert: a thread started in the last two days on the "A Way With
Words" blog suggests that "the 'war' vowel" is geographically ambiguous; in some
parts of the American South, "war" rhymes with "car"....r

That's not unknown in parts of the New Mexican North, incidentally.

--
Jerry Friedman

[John Varela]

Post by R H Draney
Synchronicity alert: a thread started in the last two days on the "A Way With
Words" blog suggests that "the 'war' vowel" is geographically ambiguous; in some
parts of the American South, "war" rhymes with "car"....r

I would have thought that "war" rhymes with "car" in all
English-speaking parts of North America. Is that not correct?

[BCD]

Post by John Varela

Post by R H Draney
Synchronicity alert: a thread started in the last two days on the "A Way With
Words" blog suggests that "the 'war' vowel" is geographically ambiguous; in some
parts of the American South, "war" rhymes with "car"....r

I would have thought that "war" rhymes with "car" in all
English-speaking parts of North America. Is that not correct?

***"War" is, seemingly exclusively, a homophone of "wore" here (in
Southern California), going by my half-century and more of experience.
I don't believe that I have ever heard it to rhyme with "car" in any
place or via any medium (though I don't doubt that such is the case yon,
though neither hither nor--less certainly--thither).

Best Wishes,

--BCD

[Donna Richoux]

Post by BCD

Post by John Varela
I would have thought that "war" rhymes with "car" in all
English-speaking parts of North America. Is that not correct?

***"War" is, seemingly exclusively, a homophone of "wore" here (in
Southern California), going by my half-century and more of experience.
I don't believe that I have ever heard it to rhyme with "car" in any
place or via any medium (though I don't doubt that such is the case yon,
though neither hither nor--less certainly--thither).

I agree (I'm originally from Northern California). I just put it down to
the general Rule of the Irregular W Sound --

Watch doesn't rhyme with catch
Worse doesn't rhyme with horse
Was " " " " gas
Wash cash
work pork
word cord
wan can
were here
wad bad

And so on.

And it's just W that's the exception -- you have batch, catch, hatch,
latch, match, patch, scratch, thatch -- and then there's watch. If
fatch, glatch, and ratch were words, they wouldn't be on the W team.

Back to "bulwark" -- the only time I remember pronouncing it was in the
hymn "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God," and it broke into two distinct
syllables, "bull" and "wark." If my elders said "bull lark", "bulluk" or
other, I didn't notice (and I think I would have).

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

Post by Donna Richoux
And it's just W that's the exception -- you have batch, catch, hatch,

Well, "catch" is a different exception, since it usually (but not
always) rhymes with "etch."

¬R

[Adam Funk]

Post by Glenn Knickerbocker

Post by Donna Richoux
And it's just W that's the exception -- you have batch, catch, hatch,

Well, "catch" is a different exception, since it usually (but not
always) rhymes with "etch."

I wouldn't say "usually", although I have heard it. Or are you
thinking of the cats in catsup?

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Glenn Knickerbocker

Post by Donna Richoux
And it's just W that's the exception -- you have batch, catch, hatch,

Well, "catch" is a different exception, since it usually (but not
always) rhymes with "etch."
¬R

That's a ketch, not a catch.

[Guy Barry]

Post by Donna Richoux
I agree (I'm originally from Northern California). I just put it down to
the general Rule of the Irregular W Sound --
Watch doesn't rhyme with catch
Worse doesn't rhyme with horse
Was " " " " gas
Wash cash
work pork
word cord
wan can
were here
wad bad

Apart from "were", those are perfectly regular. "W" before an "a" turns the
vowel into a short "o" sound, and "w" before "or" turns the vowel into an
"er" sound. (Also "w" before "ar" turns it into an "or" sound, e.g. "war",
"ward".)

There are exceptions to this rule, like "wax", "wag", "worn", where the
vowel has its usual value.

[John Varela]

On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 05:10:54 UTC, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
"W" before an "a" turns the
vowel into a short "o" sound, and "w" before "or" turns the vowel into an
"er" sound. (Also "w" before "ar" turns it into an "or" sound, e.g. "war",
"ward".)

Interesting. I've lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Massachusetts,
Texas, Michigan, New Jersey, and Virginia and can't recall anyone
ever pronouncing "war" as "wore". (I was in most of those places in
peacetime.) If they say it that way on radio or TV I've never
noticed it.

On the other hand, local lore has it that natives of the District of
Columbia pronounce Washington as "Worshington". Do you people
pronounce "wash" as "worsh"?

[Skitt]

Post by John Varela

Post by Guy Barry
"W" before an "a" turns the
vowel into a short "o" sound, and "w" before "or" turns the vowel into an
"er" sound. (Also "w" before "ar" turns it into an "or" sound, e.g. "war",
"ward".)

Interesting. I've lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Massachusetts,
Texas, Michigan, New Jersey, and Virginia and can't recall anyone
ever pronouncing "war" as "wore". (I was in most of those places in
peacetime.) If they say it that way on radio or TV I've never
noticed it.

You should have spent some time in California.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by John Varela
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 05:10:54 UTC, "Guy Barry"

 "W" before an "a" turns the
vowel into a short "o" sound, and "w" before "or" turns the vowel into an
"er" sound.  (Also "w" before "ar" turns it into an "or" sound, e.g. "war",
"ward".)

Interesting. I've lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Massachusetts,
Texas, Michigan, New Jersey, and Virginia and can't recall anyone
ever pronouncing "war" as "wore". (I was in most of those places in
peacetime.) If they say it that way on radio or TV I've never
noticed it.

I can assure you that pretty much everyone in Massachusetts, Michigan,
and New Jersey pronounced it "wore".

Post by John Varela
On the other hand, local lore has it that natives of the District of
Columbia pronounce Washington as "Worshington". Do you people
pronounce "wash" as "worsh"?

Totally different thing--there's no "r" in Washington. Saying
"Warshington" and "warsh" is a Midland feature, I think. I've heard
it in downstate Illinois and other places that I don't remember.

--
Jerry Friedman

[tony cooper]

On Sat, 1 Dec 2012 21:05:29 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by John Varela
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 05:10:54 UTC, "Guy Barry"

 "W" before an "a" turns the
vowel into a short "o" sound, and "w" before "or" turns the vowel into an
"er" sound.  (Also "w" before "ar" turns it into an "or" sound, e.g. "war",
"ward".)

Interesting. I've lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Massachusetts,
Texas, Michigan, New Jersey, and Virginia and can't recall anyone
ever pronouncing "war" as "wore". (I was in most of those places in
peacetime.) If they say it that way on radio or TV I've never
noticed it.

I can assure you that pretty much everyone in Massachusetts, Michigan,
and New Jersey pronounced it "wore".

Post by John Varela
On the other hand, local lore has it that natives of the District of
Columbia pronounce Washington as "Worshington". Do you people
pronounce "wash" as "worsh"?

Totally different thing--there's no "r" in Washington. Saying
"Warshington" and "warsh" is a Midland feature, I think. I've heard
it in downstate Illinois and other places that I don't remember.

Chewing this dinner again, "warsh" was a common pronunciation in
Indianapolis when I grew up there, but it seemed less a regionalism
than a familyism. Two people could grow up in houses next door to
each other, and be from families that had lived in the area for
generations, but one would say "warsh" and the other "wash".

[Guy Barry]

Post by John Varela
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 05:10:54 UTC, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
"W" before an "a" turns the
vowel into a short "o" sound, and "w" before "or" turns the vowel into an
"er" sound. (Also "w" before "ar" turns it into an "or" sound, e.g. "war",
"ward".)

Interesting. I've lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Massachusetts,
Texas, Michigan, New Jersey, and Virginia and can't recall anyone
ever pronouncing "war" as "wore". (I was in most of those places in
peacetime.) If they say it that way on radio or TV I've never
noticed it.

That's probably my way of notating the vowel sound that's causing confusion.
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by John Varela
Interesting. I've lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Massachusetts,
Texas, Michigan, New Jersey, and Virginia and can't recall anyone
ever pronouncing "war" as "wore". (I was in most of those places in
peacetime.) If they say it that way on radio or TV I've never
noticed it.

That's probably my way of notating the vowel sound that's causing confusion.
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

And there is the difficulty.

For me "war" and "wore" are homonyms, And yes, I use the same vowel as in
"saw", but many Americans don't have the "aw" vowel, and pronounce "saw" as
"sah" and "law" as "lah". So if you say "aw" they think you are saying "ah"

That is part of the whole "caught is not cot is not cart" thing (CinCinC).

For me, caught is not cot is not cart, and "war" rhymes with "caught" but for
many Americans caught is cart.

[Peter Brooks]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by John Varela
Interesting. I've lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Massachusetts,
Texas, Michigan, New Jersey, and Virginia and can't recall anyone
ever pronouncing "war" as "wore". (I was in most of those places in
peacetime.) If they say it that way on radio or TV I've never
noticed it.

That's probably my way of notating the vowel sound that's causing confusion.
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore".  What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

And there is the difficulty.
For me "war" and "wore" are homonyms, And yes, I use the same vowel as in
"saw", but many Americans don't have the "aw" vowel, and pronounce "saw" as
"sah" and "law" as "lah". So if you say "aw" they think you are saying "ah"

You mean that they can't hear things that they can't say?

It seems very odd for this to be the case, but I can understand that
it must be.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 04:53:31 -0800 (PST), Peter Brooks

Post by Peter Brooks

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by John Varela
Interesting. I've lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Massachusetts,
Texas, Michigan, New Jersey, and Virginia and can't recall anyone
ever pronouncing "war" as "wore". (I was in most of those places in
peacetime.) If they say it that way on radio or TV I've never
noticed it.

That's probably my way of notating the vowel sound that's causing confusion.
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore".  What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

And there is the difficulty.
For me "war" and "wore" are homonyms, And yes, I use the same vowel as in
"saw", but many Americans don't have the "aw" vowel, and pronounce "saw" as
"sah" and "law" as "lah". So if you say "aw" they think you are saying "ah"

You mean that they can't hear things that they can't say?
It seems very odd for this to be the case, but I can understand that
it must be.

I knew an American who tried to pronounce "water" the way South Africans did.
His native pronunciation was "wahdr", and he attempted to imitate the South
African promunciation and just could not get it right. He simply could not
articulate the "aw" sound in "law", "saw" and "water". I think he was from
Pennsylvania.

[John Varela]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 04:53:31 -0800 (PST), Peter Brooks

Post by Peter Brooks

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by John Varela
Interesting. I've lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Massachusetts,
Texas, Michigan, New Jersey, and Virginia and can't recall anyone
ever pronouncing "war" as "wore". (I was in most of those places in
peacetime.) If they say it that way on radio or TV I've never
noticed it.

That's probably my way of notating the vowel sound that's causing confusion.
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore".  What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

And there is the difficulty.
For me "war" and "wore" are homonyms, And yes, I use the same vowel as in
"saw", but many Americans don't have the "aw" vowel, and pronounce "saw" as
"sah" and "law" as "lah". So if you say "aw" they think you are saying "ah"

You mean that they can't hear things that they can't say?
It seems very odd for this to be the case, but I can understand that
it must be.

I knew an American who tried to pronounce "water" the way South Africans did.
His native pronunciation was "wahdr", and he attempted to imitate the South
African promunciation and just could not get it right. He simply could not
articulate the "aw" sound in "law", "saw" and "water". I think he was from
Pennsylvania.

We used to live in South Jersey, which is culturally linked to
Philadelphia. I would reproduce the typical South Jersey
pronunciation as "wudder". The first syllable is like "would" or
"wood" with a very short vowel. When we first moved there, our
6-year-old came in wanting to know why the kid down the street said
"wudder".

Some Pennsylvanians replace some T sounds with a glottal stop.
Bottle, for instance, becomes bah'l. Maybe they do some D's as well,
turning water into wah'r, but if they do I haven't noticed it.

[Guy Barry]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:49:00 -0000, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
That's probably my way of notating the vowel sound that's causing confusion.
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

And there is the difficulty.
For me "war" and "wore" are homonyms,

(Homophones, but I get your point.)

And yes, I use the same vowel as in
"saw", but many Americans don't have the "aw" vowel, and pronounce "saw" as
"sah" and "law" as "lah". So if you say "aw" they think you are saying "ah"
That is part of the whole "caught is not cot is not cart" thing (CinCinC).

Is there a simple guide to this somewhere? I can use the ASCII IPA
representations, but some people say they don't understand them.

I have different vowels in "car" (/kA:/) and "war" (/wO:/). Are there
speakers who use the same vowel?

[James Silverton]

Post by Guy Barry

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:49:00 -0000, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
That's probably my way of notating the vowel sound that's causing confusion.
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use

in >"war"

Post by Guy Barry
and "wore"?

And there is the difficulty.
For me "war" and "wore" are homonyms,

(Homophones, but I get your point.)

And yes, I use the same vowel as in
"saw", but many Americans don't have the "aw" vowel, and pronounce "saw" as
"sah" and "law" as "lah". So if you say "aw" they think you are saying "ah"
That is part of the whole "caught is not cot is not cart" thing (CinCinC).

Is there a simple guide to this somewhere? I can use the ASCII IPA
representations, but some people say they don't understand them.
I have different vowels in "car" (/kA:/) and "war" (/wO:/). Are there
speakers who use the same vowel?

Yes, certainly Glasgow Scots used to refer to trams as "caurs"
pronounced to rhyme with "wars".

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Guy Barry

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:49:00 -0000, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
That's probably my way of notating the vowel sound that's causing confusion.
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use

in >"war"

Post by Guy Barry
and "wore"?

And there is the difficulty.
For me "war" and "wore" are homonyms,

(Homophones, but I get your point.)

And yes, I use the same vowel as in
"saw", but many Americans don't have the "aw" vowel, and pronounce "saw" as
"sah" and "law" as "lah". So if you say "aw" they think you are saying "ah"
That is part of the whole "caught is not cot is not cart" thing (CinCinC).

Is there a simple guide to this somewhere? I can use the ASCII IPA
representations, but some people say they don't understand them.
I have different vowels in "car" (/kA:/) and "war" (/wO:/). Are there
speakers who use the same vowel?

I have even heard (older) English people pronounce "car" as "caw" -
quite awfen.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Guy Barry

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:49:00 -0000, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
That's probably my way of notating the vowel sound that's causing confusion.
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

And there is the difficulty.
For me "war" and "wore" are homonyms,

(Homophones, but I get your point.)

And yes, I use the same vowel as in
"saw", but many Americans don't have the "aw" vowel, and pronounce "saw" as
"sah" and "law" as "lah". So if you say "aw" they think you are saying "ah"
That is part of the whole "caught is not cot is not cart" thing (CinCinC).

Is there a simple guide to this somewhere? I can use the ASCII IPA
representations, but some people say they don't understand them.
I have different vowels in "car" (/kA:/) and "war" (/wO:/). Are there
speakers who use the same vowel?

I am one of those who doesn't understand Ascii IPA, but would you say that the
O: vowel is the one that Woozers use for "caught", "saw", "war" and "law".
I've heard some BeE speakers use it in "salt" (sawlt) but I don't.

[Guy Barry]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 14:53:49 -0000, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
Is there a simple guide to this somewhere? I can use the ASCII IPA
representations, but some people say they don't understand them.
I have different vowels in "car" (/kA:/) and "war" (/wO:/). Are there
speakers who use the same vowel?

I am one of those who doesn't understand Ascii IPA, but would you say that the
O: vowel is the one that Woozers use for "caught", "saw", "war" and "law".

I don't know what a "Woozer" is, I'm afraid. Here are my pronunciations of
"car" and "war":

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/car
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/war

The vowel I use in the latter is the same one as I use in "caught", "saw",
"law" and indeed "salt".

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Guy Barry

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 14:53:49 -0000, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
Is there a simple guide to this somewhere? I can use the ASCII IPA
representations, but some people say they don't understand them.
I have different vowels in "car" (/kA:/) and "war" (/wO:/). Are there
speakers who use the same vowel?

I am one of those who doesn't understand Ascii IPA, but would you say that the
O: vowel is the one that Woozers use for "caught", "saw", "war" and "law".

I don't know what a "Woozer" is, I'm afraid. Here are my pronunciations of

Woozer = WUESA (white urban English-speaking South African).

Post by Guy Barry
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/car
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/war

The second one sounded like "roar" to me.

Post by Guy Barry
The vowel I use in the latter is the same one as I use in "caught", "saw",
"law" and indeed "salt".

Woozers tend to say "solt" for the last.

[Dr Nick]

Post by Guy Barry
I don't know what a "Woozer" is, I'm afraid. Here are my
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/car
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/war
The vowel I use in the latter is the same one as I use in "caught",
"saw", "law"

Obviously.

Post by Guy Barry
and indeed "salt".

Bloody southerner.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Dr Nick

Post by Guy Barry
I don't know what a "Woozer" is, I'm afraid. Here are my
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/car
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/war
The vowel I use in the latter is the same one as I use in "caught",
"saw", "law"

Obviously.

Post by Guy Barry
and indeed "salt".

Bloody southerner.

I've come to the conclusion that my "salt" sometimes has the "hot" vowel
as in "bolt, colt, dolt, fault" and sometimes has the "hut" vowel as in
"adult". Going further, my "assault" seems to wander between the three
sounds aw, o and u.

[Robin Bignall]

On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 11:31:47 +0800, Robert Bannister

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dr Nick

Post by Guy Barry
I don't know what a "Woozer" is, I'm afraid. Here are my
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/car
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/war
The vowel I use in the latter is the same one as I use in "caught",
"saw", "law"

Obviously.

Post by Guy Barry
and indeed "salt".

Bloody southerner.

I've come to the conclusion that my "salt" sometimes has the "hot" vowel
as in "bolt, colt, dolt, fault" and sometimes has the "hut" vowel as in
"adult". Going further, my "assault" seems to wander between the three
sounds aw, o and u.

Blame it all on your relatives from Leicester. That might allow Dr Nick
to remove the 'bloody'.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Robin Bignall
On Wed, 05 Dec 2012 11:31:47 +0800, Robert Bannister

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dr Nick

Post by Guy Barry
I don't know what a "Woozer" is, I'm afraid. Here are my
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/car
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/war
The vowel I use in the latter is the same one as I use in "caught",
"saw", "law"

Obviously.

Post by Guy Barry
and indeed "salt".

Bloody southerner.

I've come to the conclusion that my "salt" sometimes has the "hot" vowel
as in "bolt, colt, dolt, fault" and sometimes has the "hut" vowel as in
"adult". Going further, my "assault" seems to wander between the three
sounds aw, o and u.

Blame it all on your relatives from Leicester. That might allow Dr Nick
to remove the 'bloody'.

An excellent suggestion. Relatives have to have some useful function.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by John Varela
Interesting. I've lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Massachusetts,
Texas, Michigan, New Jersey, and Virginia and can't recall anyone
ever pronouncing "war" as "wore". (I was in most of those places in
peacetime.) If they say it that way on radio or TV I've never
noticed it.

That's probably my way of notating the vowel sound that's causing confusion.
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore".  What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

And there is the difficulty.
For me "war" and "wore" are homonyms, And yes, I use the same vowel as in
"saw", but many Americans don't have the "aw" vowel, and pronounce "saw" as
"sah" and "law" as "lah". So if you say "aw" they think you are saying "ah"

...

Most or all British "aw"s sound more like "oh" to me. I don't recall
ever thinking one was close to "ah".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 14:16:58 -0800 (PST), Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry

Post by John Varela
Interesting. I've lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Massachusetts,
Texas, Michigan, New Jersey, and Virginia and can't recall anyone
ever pronouncing "war" as "wore". (I was in most of those places in
peacetime.) If they say it that way on radio or TV I've never
noticed it.

That's probably my way of notating the vowel sound that's causing confusion.
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore".  What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

And there is the difficulty.
For me "war" and "wore" are homonyms, And yes, I use the same vowel as in
"saw", but many Americans don't have the "aw" vowel, and pronounce "saw" as
"sah" and "law" as "lah". So if you say "aw" they think you are saying "ah"

...
Most or all British "aw"s sound more like "oh" to me. I don't recall
ever thinking one was close to "ah".

No, I didn't think you would. But most or all American "aw"s sound like "ah"
to me - so "law" spoken by Americans sounds like "lah" to me.

[John Varela]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:49:00 UTC, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

I use the same vowel for war, car, far, par, bar, gar, jar, mar,
tar, and yar. I think that's all of them.

I use the same vowel for wore, bore, core, fore, gore, hoar, lore,
more, Nore, pore, pour, roar, sore, soar, tore, whore, and yore. And
I think that's all of them.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by John Varela
On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:49:00 UTC, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore".  What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

I use the same vowel for war, car, far, par, bar, gar, jar, mar,
tar, and yar. I think that's all of them.

Char, scar, spar?

Post by John Varela
I use the same vowel for wore, bore, core, fore, gore, hoar, lore,
more, Nore, pore, pour, roar, sore, soar, tore, whore, and yore. And
I think that's all of them.

Chore, door, floor, for, four, nor, oar, or, ore, score, shore, spore,
store, swore, Thor? I assume you're excluding two-syllable words such
as "explore".

--
Jerry Friedman

[R H Draney]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by John Varela
I use the same vowel for war, car, far, par, bar, gar, jar, mar,
tar, and yar. I think that's all of them.

Char, scar, spar?

Depending upon where you learnt programming, "char" may be a homophone of
"care"....

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by John Varela
I use the same vowel for wore, bore, core, fore, gore, hoar, lore,
more, Nore, pore, pour, roar, sore, soar, tore, whore, and yore. And
I think that's all of them.

Chore, door, floor, for, four, nor, oar, or, ore, score, shore, spore,
store, swore, Thor? I assume you're excluding two-syllable words such
as "explore".

Snore....

That's not an additional example, it's my growing response to where this thread
has gone....r

[John Varela]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 22:13:06 UTC, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by John Varela
On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:49:00 UTC, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore".  What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

I use the same vowel for war, car, far, par, bar, gar, jar, mar,
tar, and yar. I think that's all of them.

Char, scar, spar?

I missed those, and the answer is Yes.

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by John Varela
I use the same vowel for wore, bore, core, fore, gore, hoar, lore,
more, Nore, pore, pour, roar, sore, soar, tore, whore, and yore. And
I think that's all of them.

Chore, door, floor, for, four, nor, oar, or, ore, score, shore, spore,
store, swore, Thor? I assume you're excluding two-syllable words such
as "explore".

Most of those, but not "for", "nor", nor "or". "For" is closer to
"fur", and "nor" and "or" approach the "law" vowel.

I'm sure I've laid this out before, but: My first 15 years were in
New Orleans followed by two years at a boarding school in
south-central Tennessee with boys from all over the South. Then five
years of college in Massachusetts and stints of six months to eight
years in Michigan, Texas, Arizona, back to Mass, South Jersey, and
cumulatively about 40 years in Northern Virginia. Plus about a year,
cumulatively, in a half-dozen Spanish-speaking countries.

No one ever guesses the origin of my accent, which hasn't really
changed a lot from the New Orleans original. That's probably because
I grew up in the Carrollton, also called "University", district,
which has its own accent.

[Skitt]

Post by John Varela

Post by Guy Barry
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

I use the same vowel for war, car, far, par, bar, gar, jar, mar,
tar, and yar. I think that's all of them.
I use the same vowel for wore, bore, core, fore, gore, hoar, lore,
more, Nore, pore, pour, roar, sore, soar, tore, whore, and yore. And
I think that's all of them.

I'm with you, but with one exception -- "war" belongs in the second
group. M-W Online agrees with me.

[David Dyer-Bennet]

Post by Skitt

Post by John Varela

Post by Guy Barry
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

I use the same vowel for war, car, far, par, bar, gar, jar, mar,
tar, and yar. I think that's all of them.
I use the same vowel for wore, bore, core, fore, gore, hoar, lore,
more, Nore, pore, pour, roar, sore, soar, tore, whore, and yore. And
I think that's all of them.

I'm with you, but with one exception -- "war" belongs in the second
group. M-W Online agrees with me.

And I agree with you and M-W Online.

[Dr Nick]

Post by David Dyer-Bennet

Post by Skitt

Post by John Varela

Post by Guy Barry
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in
"saw"), which is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What
vowel would you use in "war" and "wore"?

I use the same vowel for war, car, far, par, bar, gar, jar, mar,
tar, and yar. I think that's all of them.
I use the same vowel for wore, bore, core, fore, gore, hoar, lore,
more, Nore, pore, pour, roar, sore, soar, tore, whore, and
yore. And I think that's all of them.

I'm with you, but with one exception -- "war" belongs in the second
group. M-W Online agrees with me.

And I agree with you and M-W Online.

And from the other side of the planet, so do I.

[Lewis]

Post by Skitt

Post by John Varela

Post by Guy Barry
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

I use the same vowel for war, car, far, par, bar, gar, jar, mar,
tar, and yar. I think that's all of them.
I use the same vowel for wore, bore, core, fore, gore, hoar, lore,
more, Nore, pore, pour, roar, sore, soar, tore, whore, and yore. And
I think that's all of them.

I'm with you, but with one exception -- "war" belongs in the second
group. M-W Online agrees with me.

Yep. wore and war sound exactly the same.

[John Varela]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2012 07:48:54 UTC, Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Skitt

Post by John Varela

Post by Guy Barry
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

I use the same vowel for war, car, far, par, bar, gar, jar, mar,
tar, and yar. I think that's all of them.
I use the same vowel for wore, bore, core, fore, gore, hoar, lore,
more, Nore, pore, pour, roar, sore, soar, tore, whore, and yore. And
I think that's all of them.

I'm with you, but with one exception -- "war" belongs in the second
group. M-W Online agrees with me.

Yep. wore and war sound exactly the same.

Well that is just weird. Dammit I know I should stay out of
pronunciation threads.

[John Varela]

Post by Skitt

Post by John Varela

Post by Guy Barry
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

I use the same vowel for war, car, far, par, bar, gar, jar, mar,
tar, and yar. I think that's all of them.
I use the same vowel for wore, bore, core, fore, gore, hoar, lore,
more, Nore, pore, pour, roar, sore, soar, tore, whore, and yore. And
I think that's all of them.

I'm with you, but with one exception -- "war" belongs in the second
group. M-W Online agrees with me.

Interesting. The written pronunciation of "war" uses an O-dot but
the audio pronounces it much like the vowel I use. M-W allows the
same vowel as dialect in "car", but not for a couple of other words
in my list that I checked. Well, *I* think I'm pronouncing all those
words with the same vowel, and *I* think it's an A.

The vowel in the second group is a long O, not at all the same as
the vowel I use for "war" etc.

[Adam Funk]

Post by John Varela
On Sun, 2 Dec 2012 08:49:00 UTC, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
I say /wO:/ for "war" (with the same vowel as I would use in "saw"), which
is also the way I would pronounce "wore". What vowel would you use in "war"
and "wore"?

I use the same vowel for war, car, far, par, bar, gar, jar, mar,
tar, and yar. I think that's all of them.
I use the same vowel for wore, bore, core, fore, gore, hoar, lore,
more, Nore, pore, pour, roar, sore, soar, tore, whore, and yore. And
I think that's all of them.

I'd go along with that, except that my war-vowel is somewhere between
far and wore (closer to the latter, I think, and maybe just the same
but shorter).

[Adam Funk]

Post by John Varela
On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 05:10:54 UTC, "Guy Barry"

Post by Guy Barry
"W" before an "a" turns the
vowel into a short "o" sound, and "w" before "or" turns the vowel into an
"er" sound. (Also "w" before "ar" turns it into an "or" sound, e.g. "war",
"ward".)

Interesting. I've lived in Louisiana, Tennessee, Massachusetts,
Texas, Michigan, New Jersey, and Virginia and can't recall anyone
ever pronouncing "war" as "wore". (I was in most of those places in
peacetime.) If they say it that way on radio or TV I've never
noticed it.

"War" and "for" sound like rhymes here.

(Edwin Starr)

[BCD]

Post by Adam Funk
"War" and "for" sound like rhymes here.
http://youtu.be/01-2pNCZiNk
(Edwin Starr)

***I add to the record this scholarly treatment, in which I believe I
discern at least three different pronunciations of "war":

Best Wishes,

--BCD

[Adam Funk]

Post by BCD

Post by Adam Funk
"War" and "for" sound like rhymes here.
http://youtu.be/01-2pNCZiNk
(Edwin Starr)

***I add to the record this scholarly treatment, in which I believe I
http://youtu.be/yyeKYQdYISg

One of my favourite films!

[R H Draney]

Post by John Varela

Post by R H Draney
Synchronicity alert: a thread started in the last two days on the "A Way With
Words" blog suggests that "the 'war' vowel" is geographically ambiguous; in some
parts of the American South, "war" rhymes with "car"....r

I would have thought that "war" rhymes with "car" in all
English-speaking parts of North America. Is that not correct?

In the AWWW thread, I mentioned a line in the song "Joy to the World": "I'd
throw away the cars and the bars and the wars"...as sung by Bronxian Chuck
Negron, "wars" doesn't rhyme with the other two words at all...the lyric,
however, was written by Hoyt Axton, whose Oklahoma upbringing may explain why he
thought the rhyme worked....r

[Jared]

Post by R H Draney

Post by John Varela

Post by R H Draney
Synchronicity alert: a thread started in the last two days on the "A Way With
Words" blog suggests that "the 'war' vowel" is geographically ambiguous; in some
parts of the American South, "war" rhymes with "car"....r

I would have thought that "war" rhymes with "car" in all
English-speaking parts of North America. Is that not correct?

In the AWWW thread, I mentioned a line in the song "Joy to the World": "I'd
throw away the cars and the bars and the wars"...as sung by Bronxian Chuck
Negron, "wars" doesn't rhyme with the other two words at all...the lyric,
however, was written by Hoyt Axton, whose Oklahoma upbringing may explain why he
thought the rhyme worked....r

war rhymes with tore and more and whore. car rhymes with jar and far and
spar.

[R H Draney]

Post by Jared

Post by R H Draney

Post by John Varela

Post by R H Draney
Synchronicity alert: a thread started in the last two days on the "A Way With
Words" blog suggests that "the 'war' vowel" is geographically ambiguous; in some
parts of the American South, "war" rhymes with "car"....r

I would have thought that "war" rhymes with "car" in all
English-speaking parts of North America. Is that not correct?

In the AWWW thread, I mentioned a line in the song "Joy to the World": "I'd
throw away the cars and the bars and the wars"...as sung by Bronxian Chuck
Negron, "wars" doesn't rhyme with the other two words at all...the lyric,
however, was written by Hoyt Axton, whose Oklahoma upbringing may explain why he
thought the rhyme worked....r

war rhymes with tore and more and whore. car rhymes with jar and far and
spar.

I can just about imagine Randy Newman putting that in a song lyric when he was
ten years old....

In the meantime, you must be new here if you've never heard someone claim that
warm rhymes with farm and worm rhymes with form, or words to that effect...and
that bomb rhymes with comb rhymes with tomb....r

[James Silverton]

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister
thinks it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be
/'bUlwArk/ or BULL-wark.
the second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides
recommend pronouncing the second syllable like "work". My dictionary
don't think I've heard that for a long time.

The omission of the "w" was what I learned as a child but I've not had
much to do with boats in the latter half of my life and fashions may
have changed.

[Whiskers]

Post by James Silverton

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister
thinks it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be
/'bUlwArk/ or BULL-wark.
the second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides
recommend pronouncing the second syllable like "work". My dictionary
don't think I've heard that for a long time.

The omission of the "w" was what I learned as a child but I've not had
much to do with boats in the latter half of my life and fashions may
have changed.

Bulwarks don't have much to do with boats either. It wouldn't have occured
to me to say it any differently from what the spelling suggests.

[Nick Spalding]

Whiskers wrote, in

Post by Whiskers

Post by James Silverton

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister
thinks it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be
/'bUlwArk/ or BULL-wark.
the second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides
recommend pronouncing the second syllable like "work". My dictionary
don't think I've heard that for a long time.

The omission of the "w" was what I learned as a child but I've not had
much to do with boats in the latter half of my life and fashions may
have changed.

Bulwarks don't have much to do with boats either. It wouldn't have occured
to me to say it any differently from what the spelling suggests.

Yes they do. From
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_nautical_terms#B>

"Bulwark or Bulward (/'b?l?k/ in nautical use)
Bulwark (or Bulward)The extension of the ship's side above the level of
the weather deck."

It comes with an illustration <http://tinypic.com/r/158193l/6>

[Whiskers]

Post by Nick Spalding
Whiskers wrote, in

Post by Whiskers

Post by James Silverton

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister
thinks it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be
/'bUlwArk/ or BULL-wark.
the second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides
recommend pronouncing the second syllable like "work". My dictionary
don't think I've heard that for a long time.

The omission of the "w" was what I learned as a child but I've not had
much to do with boats in the latter half of my life and fashions may
have changed.

Bulwarks don't have much to do with boats either. It wouldn't have occured
to me to say it any differently from what the spelling suggests.

Yes they do. From
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_nautical_terms#B>
"Bulwark or Bulward (/'b?l?k/ in nautical use)
Bulwark (or Bulward)The extension of the ship's side above the level of
the weather deck."
It comes with an illustration <http://tinypic.com/r/158193l/6>

Well I never!

Not a usage I've ever encountered. I see that OED has it - and indicates
only a non-rhotic pronounciation, /'***@k/ in ASCII IPA.

"bulwark, n.". OED Online. September 2012. Oxford University Press. 1
December 2012 <http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/24627?rskey=0m8Y3G&result=1>.

Pronunciation: /ˈbʊlwək/

1.
a. A substantial defensive work of earth, or other material; a rampart, a
fortification. Now only arch. or poet.

b. A breakwater, mole, sea-wall; an embankment confining the bed of a
river. Also fig.

2. transf. and fig. A powerful defence or safeguard. Sometimes applied to
persons.

3. The raised woodwork running along the sides of a vessel above the level
of the deck. (Not in Bailey, Ash, or Johnson.) Usually pl.

[Curlytop]

Guy Barry set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister
thinks it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be /'bUlwArk/
or BULL-wark.
second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides recommend
pronouncing the second syllable like "work". My dictionary recommends
I've heard that for a long time.

I would say either "bull walk" or "bull wuck",

[BCD]

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister
thinks it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be
/'bUlwArk/ or BULL-wark.
second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides recommend
pronouncing the second syllable like "work". My dictionary recommends
I've heard that for a long time.

***I can attest to BULL-work as the pronunciation used by me and heard
in my experience in Southern California, though the "work" has very
nearly the same emphasis as the "bull." Frequently, of course, the bull
is what the work is comprised of; but never mind that right now.

Best Wishes,

--BCD

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister thinks
it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be /'bUlwArk/ or
BULL-wark.
second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides recommend
pronouncing the second syllable like "work". My dictionary recommends
heard that for a long time.

I tend to pronounce it like "bullock", but then I'm not sure of the difrfrence
between a bulwark and a bulkhead, so I'd better go and look it up.

[JOF]

On Fri, 30 Nov 2012 09:19:45 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister thinks
it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be /'bUlwArk/ or
BULL-wark.
second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides recommend
pronouncing the second syllable like "work". My dictionary recommends
heard that for a long time.

I tend to pronounce it like "bullock", but then I'm not sure of the difrfrence
between a bulwark and a bulkhead, so I'd better go and look it up.

AHD has a nice little article about the word:
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/bulwark

It's interesting that "boulevard" is a cognate.

[Mark Brader]

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister thinks
it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be /'bUlwArk/ or
BULL-wark.
second syllable (BULL-wuhk). Some of the pronunciation guides recommend
pronouncing the second syllable like "work". My dictionary recommends
heard that for a long time.

All pronunciations sound wrong to me. I think if had to produce one
I'd probably say "BULL-work", but I'd be worrying about the W being
silent as well as about the second vowel.

[Guy Barry]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister thinks
it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be /'bUlwArk/ or
BULL-wark.

All pronunciations sound wrong to me.

That's a little worrying :-)

I note that not a single contributor to this thread agrees with our PM, by
the way. They must teach them differently at Eton.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister thinks
it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be /'bUlwArk/ or
BULL-wark.

All pronunciations sound wrong to me.

That's a little worrying :-)
I note that not a single contributor to this thread agrees with our PM,
by the way. They must teach them differently at Eton.

I'm sure I said that is most likely what I would say if you forced me to
say it. I have a feeling I ought to drop the w, and on the whole I just
avoid saying it, but bull-wahk is how I would say it if I had to.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 09:48:15 +0800, Robert Bannister

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Guy Barry

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Guy Barry
Well how do you pronounce this one then? The British Prime Minister thinks
it's /'bUlwA:k/ or BULL-wahk - for rhotics that would be /'bUlwArk/ or
BULL-wark.

All pronunciations sound wrong to me.

That's a little worrying :-)
I note that not a single contributor to this thread agrees with our PM,
by the way. They must teach them differently at Eton.

I'm sure I said that is most likely what I would say if you forced me to
say it. I have a feeling I ought to drop the w, and on the whole I just
avoid saying it, but bull-wahk is how I would say it if I had to.

I don't have much occasion to say the word. I think I would use "-wahk"
or "-walk" (pedestrianise).

I would avoid anything that could be confused with "bullock".

[Peter Brooks]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 09:48:15 +0800, Robert Bannister
I would avoid anything that could be confused with "bullock".

Bollocks are said, by some, to be quite tasty, but that may, of
course, simply be bollocks.

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 3 Dec 2012 05:37:37 -0800 (PST), Peter Brooks

Post by Peter Brooks

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 09:48:15 +0800, Robert Bannister
I would avoid anything that could be confused with "bullock".

Bollocks are said, by some, to be quite tasty, but that may, of
course, simply be bollocks.

But bullocks and bulwarks lack them.

[Peter Brooks]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Mon, 3 Dec 2012 05:37:37 -0800 (PST), Peter Brooks

Post by Peter Brooks

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 09:48:15 +0800, Robert Bannister
I would avoid anything that could be confused with "bullock".

Bollocks are said, by some, to be quite tasty, but that may, of
course, simply be bollocks.

But bullocks and bulwarks lack them.

I wouldn't say that. I know that some bullocks can be oxen, but I
don't think it a requirement and I think that the OED agrees:

" [OED]
bullock, n.

(ˈbʊlək)

Forms: 1–3 bulluc, 5 bullok, 6 bolok, 6–7 bullocke, 6– bullock.

[OE. bulluc; see bull n.1, and cf. ballock, hassock. (The alleged form
bulluca is spurious.)]

1.1 Orig. a young bull, or bull calf; but afterwards, and in later
times always, a castrated bull, an ox.

   a 1000 Interlinear Gloss. on the Liber Scintillarum liv. (MS. Reg.
7. C. iv.) To bulluce [Lat. ad vitulum].    a 1240 Cuckoo Song in
Ritson Anc. Songs 3 Bulluc sterteþ. bucke uerteþ.    c 1440 Promp.
Parv. 55 Bullok, boculus, vitulus.    1521 Bury Wills (1850) 122 Item,
delyuerid the boloks, vj, acordyng after ye will.    a 1553 Udall
Royster D. i. iv, I know that, but my mind was on bullockes and
steeres.    1599 Shakes. Much Ado ii. i. 202 Why that's spoken like an
honest Drouier, so they sel Bullockes.    1611 Bible Ps. li. 19 Then
shall they offer bullockes vpon thine altar.    1720 Gay Poems (1745)
I. 178 Here lowing bullocks raise their horned head.    1815
Elphinstone Acc. Caubul (1842) II. 135 Bullocks are‥more used to
plough than camels.

†2.2 Applied loosely to a bull, or bovine beast generally. Obs. exc.
dial.

   1535 Coverdale Job xxi. 10 Their bullock gendreth, and that not out
of tyme.    1787 Marshall Norfolk Gloss. (E.D.S.) Bullocks, a general
term, in Norfolk, for all kinds of cattle at turneps, etc.; whether
they be oxen, steers, heifers, or cows.    1875 Parish Sussex Dial.,
Bullock, a fat beast of either sex‥‘Yes, she's a purty cow‥one of
these days she'll make a nice bullock.’

†3.3 Jestingly used for: A papal bull. Obs.

   1537 Latimer Serm. & Rem. (1845) 378, I send you here a bullock
which I did find amongst my bulls.    1589 Warner Alb. Eng. v. xxiv.
121 Some egge vs sla the Prince and shewe a Bullocke fra the Pope.

4.4 A slang term applied in Australian cities to a countryman or
bushman.

5.5 In the names of various plants, as bullock's eye, the common
Houseleek, Sempervivum tectorum; bullock's heart, the fruit of Anona
reticulata; bullock's lungwort, the Great Mullein, Verbascum Thapsus
L.

   1597 Gerard Herbal cclvi. 630 The countrey people‥in Kent, doe giue
their cattell the leaues to drinke against the cough of the lungs‥
whereupon they do call it Bullocks Longwoort.    1861 Miss Pratt
Flower. Pl. IV. 135 Great Mullein‥was‥Bullock's Lungwort.    1861 Mrs.
Lankester Wild Flowers 57 House-leek‥is frequently called Jupiter's
Eye, Bullock's Eye, or Jupiter's Beard.    1866 Treas. Bot., Bullock's
Heart, a name given to the fruit of Anona reticulata, a kind of
custard apple.

6.6 Comb. and attrib. a.6.a simple attrib., as bullock-bell, bullock-
car, bullock-carriage, bullock-cart, bullock-chariot, bullock-dray,
bullock-gear, bullock-hump, bullock-land, bullock-load, bullock-
pasture, bullock-shed, bullock-ship, bullock-train, bullock-turnip,
bullock-vessel, bullock-wagon, bullock-wainster; b.6.b objective
genitive, as bullock-driver, bullock-teasing; also bullock-leech, a
cattle-doctor; bullock-puncher (Australian and N.Z.) = bullock-driver;
hence bullock-punching. bullock's-eye (see quot.; cf. bull's-eye);
also see 5; bullock-trunk, a trunk suited for carriage in a bullock-
cart, or on bullock-back.

   1911 C. E. W. Bean ‘Dreadnought’ of Darling v. 48, I fancy there is
a *bullock-bell somewhere, Joe.    1928 ‘Brent of Bin Bin’ Up Country
viii. 126 The bullock bells added to the orchestra of frogs and the
millions of crickets.

   1830 W. S. Moorsom Lett. fr. Nova Scotia 241 The Portuguese
*bullock-car of Peninsular memory.    1903 Daily Chron. 11 Mar. 8/2
Mr. Chamberlain‥subsequently proceeded to Mount Church, partly by
municipal bullock-car.

   1839 J. C. Maitland Lett. fr. Madras (1843) 299 All the poor
widows, with their palanquins and *bullock-carriages covered with
black cloth.

   1858 Merc. Mar. Mag. V. 47 The difference‥is 48 hours by *bullock-
carts.

   1837 Carlyle Fr. Rev. II. v. xii. 316 *Bullock-chariots, and
goadsmen in Roman Costume.

   1857 Westgarth Victoria, &c. xi. 251 Carriage by *bullock-drays
from Melbourne.

   1792 Gentl. Mag. LXII. i. 175 We lost‥about 600 privates, besides
pack-horse and *bullock-drivers.    1862 Lloyd Tasmania xix. 480
Shepherds, Bullock drivers, and other servants were seized with the
desire to turn diggers of gold.

   1848 Haygarth Bush Life Australia ii. 19 Every sort of saddlery,
*bullock-gear, and harness of every description.

   1849–52 Todd Cycl. Anat. & Phys. IV. 1355 The *bullock-hump‥is not
by any means so characteristic of this race.

   1881 Daily News 31 Aug. 2/2 The excellent *bullock land‥would meet
ready purchasers.

   1774 Lambert in Phil. Trans. LXVI. 498 A farrier and *bullock-
leach.

   1803 Welllington Let. in Gurw. Disp. II. 567 We have not lost a
*bullock-load of any thing during the war.

   1856 W. H. S. Roberts Diary 19 Sept. in H. Beattie Early Runholding
in Otago (1947) i. vi. 43 The whip‥was a powerful flagellator in the
hands of an experienced ‘*bullock-puncher’.    1921 H. Guthrie-Smith
Tutira xxxviii. 382 Owners and employees had worked shoulder to
shoulder as‥bullock-punchers.

   1891 G. Chamier Philosopher Dick II. xv. 411 He soon got charge of
a team, and was loud in expatiating on the art of *bullock-punching.

   1751 Chambers Cycl. s.v. Eye, *Bullock's Eye, Oeil de bœuf, denotes
a little sky-light in the covering, or roof, intended to illumine a
granary, or the like.

   1865 Cornh. Mag. XI. 105 The filthy quarters allotted me in an old
*bullock-shed‥exhausted all endurance.

   1858 W. Ellis Vis. Madagascar ii. 21 Mr. Jeffreys‥died during a
voyage from Madagascar to Mauritius in the miserable hold of a
*bullock ship.

   1879 Dowden Southey iii. 47 The sorry spectacle of *bullock-teasing
made a slighter impression on him.

   1859 Lang Wand. India 182 The Government has a *bullock-train for
the conveyance of stores.

   1845 Stocqueler Handbk. Brit. India (1854) 78 *Bullock-trunks‥are
preferable, as they are permanently useful.

   1884 Whitby Gaz. 9 Aug. 2/5 The crop of‥*bullock turnips must now
be sown.

   1863 Kinglake Crimea II. 179 There were some Tartar peasants
passing‥with small *bullock-waggons.

   1883 Gd. Words July 420/1 The *bullock-wainster who dared to hinder
his progress.



"

[Adam Funk]

Post by Peter Brooks

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Mon, 03 Dec 2012 09:48:15 +0800, Robert Bannister
I would avoid anything that could be confused with "bullock".

Bollocks are said, by some, to be quite tasty, but that may, of
course, simply be bollocks.

"Señor, the bull does not always lose."

[Glenn Knickerbocker]

Post by Guy Barry
second syllable (BULL-wuhk).

What about the first syllable? I'd be about equally likely to say
/'***@rk/ as /'***@rk/.

¬R http://users.bestweb.net/~notr/bluemoon.html
"Nothing says 'Thursday' quite like Ira Fusfeld."

[annily]

Post by Glenn Knickerbocker

Post by Guy Barry
second syllable (BULL-wuhk).

What about the first syllable? I'd be about equally likely to say

It would always be /U/ (as in "bull") for me.