"Evil Knievel"

[Stefan Ram]

His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
dictionaries. Wikipedia gives:

|kˈniːvəl

, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
memory after several minutes):

ˌiːvl̩ kɐˈniːvl̩

. ([ɐ] is between [a] and a schwa [ə], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.

Knuth 
kəˈnuːθ


. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

[Chrysi Cat]

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|kˈniːvəl
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
ˌiːvl̩ kɐˈniːvl̩
. ([ɐ] is between [a] and a schwa [ə], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth 
kəˈnuːθ
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

WE hear the same sound that we'd hear if we were discussing a
Landsknecht in our history class, or if you were to mention that a
medieval fantasy had ein Knicht in it.

It's not just that we can't pronounce that "single consonant cluster"
without inserting the schwa, it's that we don't hear YOU being capable
of doing so either.

[Quinn C]

Post by Chrysi Cat

Post by Stefan Ram
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

WE hear the same sound that we'd hear if we were discussing a
Landsknecht in our history class, or if you were to mention that a
medieval fantasy had ein Knicht in it.

You can do it. Just say "acknowledge" or "agnostic" without the "a" and
you're golden.

I make it a point to pronounce "knight" as [knIxt] sometimes - that's
how you people still write it, after all.

[Dingbat]

Post by Chrysi Cat

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|kˈniːvəl
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
ˌiːvl̩ kɐˈniːvl̩
. ([ɐ] is between [a] and a schwa [ə], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
kəˈnuːθ
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

WE hear the same sound that we'd hear if we were discussing a
Landsknecht in our history class, or if you were to mention that a
medieval fantasy had ein Knicht in it.
It's not just that we can't pronounce that "single consonant cluster"
without inserting the schwa, it's that we don't hear YOU being capable
of doing so either.
--

Who came up with Canute?

FWIW, in Malayalam, [kɪɳɑːpːʊ] is commonly pronounced as [kɳɑːpːɯ].
That is, such a consonant cluster is introduced by elision of the vowel
between the k & n.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Fri, 7 May 2021 16:04:30 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Chrysi Cat

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

WE hear the same sound that we'd hear if we were discussing a
Landsknecht in our history class, or if you were to mention that a
medieval fantasy had ein Knicht in it.
It's not just that we can't pronounce that "single consonant cluster"
without inserting the schwa, it's that we don't hear YOU being capable
of doing so either.
--

Who came up with Canute?

"Harold Harefoot, the Dyslexic". One night he found him in bed with
Harold's wife and said, "You great Cnut!"

Harold replied, "Yes, she was."

Henceforth, he was known as "Cnut the Great".

[CDB]

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Dingbat

Post by Chrysi Cat

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my memory
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really clear
that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

WE hear the same sound that we'd hear if we were discussing a
Landsknecht in our history class, or if you were to mention that
a medieval fantasy had ein Knicht in it.
It's not just that we can't pronounce that "single consonant
cluster" without inserting the schwa, it's that we don't hear YOU
being capable of doing so either.
--

Who came up with Canute?

"Harold Harefoot, the Dyslexic". One night he found him in bed with
Harold's wife and said, "You great Cnut!"
Harold replied, "Yes, she was."
Henceforth, he was known as "Cnut the Great".

A renowned canoodler.

[Dingbat]

Post by CDB

Post by Dingbat

Post by Chrysi Cat

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my memory
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really clear
that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

WE hear the same sound that we'd hear if we were discussing a
Landsknecht in our history class, or if you were to mention that
a medieval fantasy had ein Knicht in it.
It's not just that we can't pronounce that "single consonant
cluster" without inserting the schwa, it's that we don't hear YOU
being capable of doing so either.
--

Who came up with Canute?

"Harold Harefoot, the Dyslexic". One night he found him in bed with
Harold's wife and said, "You great Cnut!"
Harold replied, "Yes, she was."
Henceforth, he was known as "Cnut the Great".

A renowned canoodler.
--
I wonder how the Romans pronounced "Cnidus" and "Knossos".

How do Anglophones pronounce CNIDA?

[CDB]

Post by Dingbat

Post by CDB

Post by Dingbat

Post by Chrysi Cat

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the
[a].) Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English
speakers do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it
really clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a
schwa.

WE hear the same sound that we'd hear if we were discussing
a Landsknecht in our history class, or if you were to mention
that a medieval fantasy had ein Knicht in it.
It's not just that we can't pronounce that "single consonant
cluster" without inserting the schwa, it's that we don't hear
YOU being capable of doing so either.
--

Who came up with Canute?

"Harold Harefoot, the Dyslexic". One night he found him in bed
with Harold's wife and said, "You great Cnut!"
Harold replied, "Yes, she was."
Henceforth, he was known as "Cnut the Great".

A renowned canoodler.
-- I wonder how the Romans pronounced "Cnidus" and "Knossos".

How do Anglophones pronounce CNIDA?

An initialism? Don't think I've heard it pronounced. If trapped, this
anglophone would say [knid@], because, like DavidK, I can do that. I
suppose a Roman might insert an "a"'

[Dingbat]

Post by Dingbat

Post by CDB

Post by Dingbat

Post by Chrysi Cat

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the
[a].) Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English
speakers do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it
really clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a
schwa.

WE hear the same sound that we'd hear if we were discussing
a Landsknecht in our history class, or if you were to mention
that a medieval fantasy had ein Knicht in it.
It's not just that we can't pronounce that "single consonant
cluster" without inserting the schwa, it's that we don't hear
YOU being capable of doing so either.
--

Who came up with Canute?

"Harold Harefoot, the Dyslexic". One night he found him in bed
with Harold's wife and said, "You great Cnut!"
Harold replied, "Yes, she was."
Henceforth, he was known as "Cnut the Great".

A renowned canoodler.

Thanks for the humor but what was the native language of those who first spelled it as Canute? Old English, Middle English, French or Modern English? Was the terminal <e> silent? If the spelling came from Danelaw, what kind of English was spoken there? Northumbrian?

Post by Dingbat

Post by CDB
-- I wonder how the Romans pronounced "Cnidus" and "Knossos".

How do Anglophones pronounce CNIDA?

An initialism? Don't think I've heard it pronounced. If trapped, this
suppose a Roman might insert an "a"'

Anglophones who pronounce it realize CN as a consonant cluster, as per this:
cnida. ( ˈknaɪdə) n. (Zoology) zoology a nematocyst. - Collins English dictionary
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/cnida

If they can do that, they should have little trouble doing the same with KNUTH.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

[Cnut the Great]
Thanks for the humor but what was the native language of those who first spelled it as Canute?

Interesting question. He was King of Denmark, and is known
here as "Knud den store". No inserted vowel.

Old English, Middle English, French or Modern English? Was the terminal <e> silent?
If the spelling came from Danelaw, what kind of English was spoken there? Northumbrian?

/Anders, Denmark

[CDB]

[Cnut the Great] Thanks for the humor but what was the native
language of those who first spelled it as Canute?

Their native language no doubt varied, but "Canutus" is the Latin form
of the name "Knut", as "Carolus" is of "Karl". The form "Canute"
probably came into English from French, where "Canute" was the regular
reflex of the Latin form.

Interesting question. He was King of Denmark, and is known here as
"Knud den store". No inserted vowel.

One of his successors is honoured by the Church as "Saint Canutus".

<https://angelusnews.com/faith/saint-of-the-day/saint-of-the-day-canutus-king-of-denmark/>

Old English, Middle English, French or Modern English? Was the terminal <e> silent?

Yes, in English.

If the spelling came from Danelaw, what kind of English was spoken there? Northumbrian?

In the Danelaw they probably spelled it "Cnut".

[Lewis]

Post by CDB

Post by Dingbat
How do Anglophones pronounce CNIDA?

An initialism? Don't think I've heard it pronounced. If trapped, this
suppose a Roman might insert an "a"'

Sea-en-eye-dee-ay is the only way I would pronounce that.

[phil]

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|kˈniːvəl
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
ˌiːvl̩ kɐˈniːvl̩
. ([ɐ] is between [a] and a schwa [ə], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth 
kəˈnuːθ
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

Also true of [gn]:

[Quinn C]

Post by Stefan Ram
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

I had a hard time convincing a colleague from Romania that the k in
"know" or "knife" was silent. To her, it was a ridiculous idea.

[Ross Clark]

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|kˈniːvəl
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
ˌiːvl̩ kɐˈniːvl̩
. ([ɐ] is between [a] and a schwa [ə], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth 
kəˈnuːθ
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

[Stefan Ram]

Post by Ross Clark
They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

Oh, I didn't know this.

For me it's fascinating, when I observe my own mental limitations.
For example, I am not able to pronounce the alveolar trill (aka
"rolled R", "rolling R", or "trilled R"). I tried for years until
I managed to get the vibration a first time when I try to produce
that sound in isolation, but I still cannot produce it in a fluent
and natural manner in speech when it occurs between other sounds.

OTOH, I was born i a region where the guttural R is used sometimes
(though very rarely), and I can produce this with no problems at all.
I am suprised when I read on the web that there are people having
problems with /this/!

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|kˈniːvəl
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
ˌiːvl̩ kɐˈniːvl̩
. ([ɐ] is between [a] and a schwa [ə], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
kəˈnuːθ
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".

I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by David Kleinecke
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

We don't say "midget" any more. We say "little person."

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by David Kleinecke
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

We don't say "midget" any more. We say "little person."

My typo, sorry, should be Midges,

Jan

[CDB]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by David Kleinecke
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no
aspiration and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten' are the pest known to you
as Midgets,

We don't say "midget" any more. We say "little person."

My typo, sorry, should be Midges,

Haitians say "ti bagay", little things.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

No, "midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.

A "midge" is a gnat.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

No, "midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.
A "midge" is a gnat.

which looks as if it might be cognate with "knut".

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

No, "midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.
A "midge" is a gnat.

which looks as if it might be cognate with "knut".

Dictionary say from Swedish 'Knott',
which might well be the English root too.

Those have -lots- experience with them, esp. in the North,

Jan

[CDB]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the
[a].) Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English
speakers do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make
it really clear that they do this by inserting a kind of
a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...",
as if they were showing off. They insert it because they
_cannot pronounce_ word-initial [kn]. English has no words
like this. When they feel they have to pronounce the [k]
(as for these names), the closest they can get is to add an
extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between consonants in "kn" is reduced
to the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not
have aspiration. Does anybody know whether the "k" was
aspirated back when English speakers still pronounced the
"k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no
aspiration and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten' are the pest known to you
as Midgets,

No, "midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.
A "midge" is a gnat.

which looks as if it might be cognate with "knut".

Dictionary say from Swedish 'Knott', which might well be the English
root too.
Those have -lots- experience with them, esp. in the North,

Etymonline says it's cognate to "gnaw", and includes a C13 account of
"gnats" that seems to describe mosquitoes.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/gnat

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Sat, 08 May 2021 09:32:37 -0400

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

No, "midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.
A "midge" is a gnat.

I presumed JJ was being ionic about silent leters in the spellin.

a Knotty problem for lerners.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

No, "midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

[Ross Clark]

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

No, "midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

Myrl

[Peter Moylan]

"midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

I've only ever seen that written (and pronounced) as Madge.

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 10 May 2021 12:14:05 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
"midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

I've only ever seen that written (and pronounced) as Madge.

The only "Midge" I've known was a Barbara. I don't think it came from
Barbara, though. Just something the family started and continued.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 10 May 2021 12:14:05 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Tony Cooper
"midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

I've only ever seen that written (and pronounced) as Madge.

The only "Midge" I've known was a Barbara. I don't think it came from
Barbara, though. Just something the family started and continued.

Maybe her middle name was an M name? Nicknames often come from middle
names. Or, as you said, just a family nickname for no particular reason.

I know of one person (not someone I ever met) who was called JR whose
initials were not JR. Supposedly it was from his family nickname
"Junior:" though he was not, in fact, a Junior.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 10 May 2021 12:14:05 +1100, Peter Moylan

"midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

I've only ever seen that written (and pronounced) as Madge.

The only "Midge" I've known was a Barbara. I don't think it came from
Barbara, though. Just something the family started and continued.

Moe, the bartender on *The Simpsons* calls Marge "Midge" -- he's sweet on her.

[Madhu]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 10 May 2021 12:14:05 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Lewis
It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret,
Marjorie, or Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

I've only ever seen that written (and pronounced) as Madge.

The only "Midge" I've known was a Barbara. I don't think it came from
Barbara, though. Just something the family started and continued.

Moe, the bartender on *The Simpsons* calls Marge "Midge" -- he's sweet on her.

Midge was Moose's girlfriend (Archie)

[Quinn C]

Post by Madhu

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 10 May 2021 12:14:05 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Lewis
It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret,
Marjorie, or Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

I've only ever seen that written (and pronounced) as Madge.

The only "Midge" I've known was a Barbara. I don't think it came from
Barbara, though. Just something the family started and continued.

Moe, the bartender on *The Simpsons* calls Marge "Midge" -- he's sweet on her.

Midge was Moose's girlfriend (Archie)

"Shortened" names in English are definitely weird. Recently, I watched a
TV series where one of the protagonists went by "Busy". Several episodes
in, her full name of "Elizabeth" was mentioned; I wouldn't have guessed
that origin of "Busy". Add one to the already enormous list of
Elizabeth-derived nicks.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Madhu

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 10 May 2021 12:14:05 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Lewis
It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret,
Marjorie, or Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

I've only ever seen that written (and pronounced) as Madge.

The only "Midge" I've known was a Barbara. I don't think it came from
Barbara, though. Just something the family started and continued.

Moe, the bartender on *The Simpsons* calls Marge "Midge" -- he's sweet on her.

Midge was Moose's girlfriend (Archie)

"Shortened" names in English are definitely weird. Recently, I watched a
TV series where one of the protagonists went by "Busy". Several episodes
in, her full name of "Elizabeth" was mentioned; I wouldn't have guessed
that origin of "Busy". Add one to the already enormous list of
Elizabeth-derived nicks.

That may be from "Busy Lizzie", which might apply to her and might also be
connected with the extremely popular flowering plant /Impatiens walleriana/,
known as Busy Lizzie (less so in the U.S. than the U.K.--I don't know about
other countries).

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Madhu

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 10 May 2021 12:14:05 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Lewis
It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret,
Marjorie, or Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

I've only ever seen that written (and pronounced) as Madge.

The only "Midge" I've known was a Barbara. I don't think it came from
Barbara, though. Just something the family started and continued.

Moe, the bartender on *The Simpsons* calls Marge "Midge" -- he's sweet on her.

Midge was Moose's girlfriend (Archie)

"Shortened" names in English are definitely weird. Recently, I watched a
TV series where one of the protagonists went by "Busy". Several episodes
in, her full name of "Elizabeth" was mentioned; I wouldn't have guessed
that origin of "Busy". Add one to the already enormous list of
Elizabeth-derived nicks.

Busy Philipps is an unaccountably popular actor. She was in
*Freaks and Geeks* (where Judd Apatow discovered almost
all of his stock company) and later in that bad series where
Jennifer Anniston tried to make a comeback.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Busy_Philipps

"Philipps was born in Oak Park, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago.[2][3]
She received the nickname "Busy" as a child; sources conflict on
whether the nickname came from her parents[4] or a babysitter
named Susie.[5] Busy stated on her late-night talk show, Busy Tonight,
that her mother gave her the nickname, but stated during her book
tour that her babysitter gave her the nickname. This was clarified on
an episode of Comedy Bang! Bang! when she confirmed to host Scott
Aukerman that it was her babysitter, in his quest to achieve Wikipedia clout.[6]"

(That last sentence makes no sense.)

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
"midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

I've only ever seen that written (and pronounced) as Madge.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midge_(disambiguation)#People>

I've only known of one, a mother of a grade school acquaintance, but I
am pretty sure... ah, right, a character in Archie Comics and a Barbie
doll, as well as a nickname of The Marvelous Mrs Maisel.

[Jerry Friedman]

"midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

I've only ever seen that written (and pronounced) as Madge.

If I remember correctly, I had a relative of an earlier generation known as
"Midge" who I never met.

[musika]

Post by Jerry Friedman

"midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

I've only ever seen that written (and pronounced) as Madge.

If I remember correctly, I had a relative of an earlier generation known as
"Midge" who I never met.

I had a pupil called Michaela who was known as Midge.

[Paul Wolff]

On Mon, 10 May 2021, at 08:20:18, Jerry Friedman

Post by Jerry Friedman

"midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

I've only ever seen that written (and pronounced) as Madge.

If I remember correctly, I had a relative of an earlier generation known as
"Midge" who I never met.

Me too - Great-aunt Marjory in Halifax, Yorkshire.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

No, "midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

Not only M names; James Ure, formerly of Visage, Ultravox and other
bands, is known as Midge. Wikipedia explains that "His stage name,
Midge, is a phonetic reversal of Jim, the diminutive form of his actual
name."

I don't know who James Ure is, but perhaps another reason for his being
called "Midge" is his diminutive form.

[phil]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Lewis

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between  consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

No, "midges".  "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

Not only M names; James Ure, formerly of Visage, Ultravox and other
bands, is known as Midge. Wikipedia explains that "His stage name,
Midge, is a phonetic reversal of Jim, the diminutive form of his actual
name."

I don't know who James Ure is, but perhaps another reason for his being
called "Midge" is his diminutive form.

I didn't know whether he was diminutive or not, but the Internet Height
Database tells me

"At a height of 5 feet 6.5 inches, or 168.91cm tall, Midge Ure is taller
than 9.56% and smaller than 90.43% of all males in our height database.
This makes him much smaller than average."

<http://www.heightdb.com/person/midge-ure>

so you could be right. How did we survive before there was the internet?

[Quinn C]

Post by phil

Post by Ken Blake

Not only M names; James Ure, formerly of Visage, Ultravox and other
bands, is known as Midge. Wikipedia explains that "His stage name,
Midge, is a phonetic reversal of Jim, the diminutive form of his actual
name."

I don't know who James Ure is, but perhaps another reason for his being
called "Midge" is his diminutive form.

I didn't know whether he was diminutive or not, but the Internet Height
Database tells me
"At a height of 5 feet 6.5 inches, or 168.91cm tall, Midge Ure is taller
than 9.56% and smaller than 90.43% of all males in our height database.
This makes him much smaller than average."
<http://www.heightdb.com/person/midge-ure>
so you could be right. How did we survive before there was the internet?

And before we could measure people's height to a hundredth of a cm?

"Hold still, dammit!!!"

[phil]

Post by Quinn C

Post by phil

Post by Ken Blake

Not only M names; James Ure, formerly of Visage, Ultravox and other
bands, is known as Midge. Wikipedia explains that "His stage name,
Midge, is a phonetic reversal of Jim, the diminutive form of his actual
name."

I don't know who James Ure is, but perhaps another reason for his being
called "Midge" is his diminutive form.

I didn't know whether he was diminutive or not, but the Internet Height
Database tells me
"At a height of 5 feet 6.5 inches, or 168.91cm tall, Midge Ure is taller
than 9.56% and smaller than 90.43% of all males in our height database.
This makes him much smaller than average."
<http://www.heightdb.com/person/midge-ure>
so you could be right. How did we survive before there was the internet?

And before we could measure people's height to a hundredth of a cm?
"Hold still, dammit!!!"

Good point -- and they don't even give an exact date and time for the
measurement.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by phil

Post by Quinn C

Post by phil

Post by Ken Blake

Not only M names; James Ure, formerly of Visage, Ultravox and other
bands, is known as Midge. Wikipedia explains that "His stage name,
Midge, is a phonetic reversal of Jim, the diminutive form of his actual
name."

I don't know who James Ure is, but perhaps another reason for his being
called "Midge" is his diminutive form.

I didn't know whether he was diminutive or not, but the Internet Height
Database tells me
"At a height of 5 feet 6.5 inches, or 168.91cm tall, Midge Ure is taller
than 9.56% and smaller than 90.43% of all males in our height database.
This makes him much smaller than average."
<http://www.heightdb.com/person/midge-ure>
so you could be right. How did we survive before there was the internet?

And before we could measure people's height to a hundredth of a cm?
"Hold still, dammit!!!"

Good point -- and they don't even give an exact date and time for the
measurement.

Is a good point.
In the morning you are longer than at the end of the day.
It could matter:
if you were over 2.00 m you were declared unfit for military service.
So if you are just about that length, be there early, or late,
depending on the desired outcome.
I know someone who just managed to stay out,

Jan

[Quinn C]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by phil

Post by Quinn C

Post by phil
I didn't know whether he was diminutive or not, but the Internet Height
Database tells me
"At a height of 5 feet 6.5 inches, or 168.91cm tall, Midge Ure is taller
than 9.56% and smaller than 90.43% of all males in our height database.
This makes him much smaller than average."
<http://www.heightdb.com/person/midge-ure>
so you could be right. How did we survive before there was the internet?

And before we could measure people's height to a hundredth of a cm?
"Hold still, dammit!!!"

Good point -- and they don't even give an exact date and time for the
measurement.

Is a good point.
In the morning you are longer than at the end of the day.
if you were over 2.00 m you were declared unfit for military service.

What, you don't like Lange Kerls? [1]

I don't remember hearing about that in Germany, back in the day. I guess
it's about equipment not being adapted?

There was a Dutch student in my dorm in Japan, and he couldn't stand up
straight in the shower or close the door when he was sitting on the
throne. That bath module was a feat of engineering (a shower, a sink and
a toilet in a space of about 1x2 m) but not made for someone 2.00 m tall
- the ceiling height was just about that, inside.

Post by J. J. Lodder
So if you are just about that length, be there early, or late,
depending on the desired outcome.

If you can choose that. I imagine you normally can't.

____
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Giants

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by phil
Good point -- and they don't even give an exact date and time for the
measurement.

Is a good point.
In the morning you are longer than at the end of the day.

That's based on an assumption.
Quite a few people work at night & sleep during the day.

Better make some allowance for tidal influences whilst you're about it.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by phil
Good point -- and they don't even give an exact date and time for the
measurement.

Is a good point.
In the morning you are longer than at the end of the day.

That's based on an assumption.
Quite a few people work at night & sleep during the day.
Better make some allowance for tidal influences whilst you're about it.

You get shorter too when the Moon is in its descending node?

Jan

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by phil
Good point -- and they don't even give an exact date and time for the
measurement.

Is a good point.
In the morning you are longer than at the end of the day.

That's based on an assumption.
Quite a few people work at night & sleep during the day.
Better make some allowance for tidal influences whilst you're about it.

You get shorter too when the Moon is in its descending node?

I refuse to disclose personal information on a public medium.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

No, "midges". "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

Not only M names; James Ure, formerly of Visage, Ultravox and other
bands, is known as Midge. Wikipedia explains that "His stage name,
Midge, is a phonetic reversal of Jim, the diminutive form of his actual
name."

One of my daughters was known as Yoj [jɔd͡ʒ] for a while, a spelling
reversal rather than a phonetic reversal, because when she was learning
to write she knew how to spell her name, putting the letters in the
right order (in time), but writing them from right to left.

[phil]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Lewis

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between  consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

No, "midges".  "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

Not only M names; James Ure, formerly of Visage, Ultravox and other
bands, is known as Midge. Wikipedia explains that "His stage name,
Midge, is a phonetic reversal of Jim, the diminutive form of his
actual name."

One of my daughters was known as Yoj [jɔd͡ʒ] for a while, a spelling
reversal rather than a phonetic reversal, because when she was learning
to write she knew how to spell her name, putting the letters in the
right order (in time), but writing them from right to left.

I remember a brief period at school when it was considered amusing to
spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded words that were
difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them stuck as nicknames.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered amusing to
spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded words that were
difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a girl
turned some request of mine.

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered amusing to
spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded words that were
difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a girl
turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel doesn't
appeal at all.

[HVS]

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

[charles]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

There's a Scottish Island "Lewis" and it's not even a tiny bit Welsh. The
Name is possibly derived from Norse or Latin.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by charles

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

There's a Scottish Island "Lewis" and it's not even a tiny bit Welsh. The
Name is possibly derived from Norse or Latin.

I didn't say that it was exclusively Welsh, just "a bit Welsh". That
doesn't stop the Scots from calling an island Lewis, or the French from
calling lots of kings Lewis (as anglicized in the 19th century), or the
parents of a regular poster from calling their son Lewis.

https://www.ancestry.com/name-origin?surname=lewis

is perhaps not the most reliable of sources, but it agrees with me:

"Lewis Name Meaning
"English (but most common in Wales): from Lowis, Lodovicus, a Norman
personal name composed of the Germanic elements hlod ‘fame’ + wig
‘war’. This was the name of the founder of the Frankish dynasty,
recorded in Latin chronicles as Ludovicus and Chlodovechus (the latter
form becoming Old French Clovis, Clouis, Louis, the former developing
into German Ludwig). The name was popular throughout France in the
Middle Ages and was introduced to England by the Normans. In Wales it
became inextricably confused with 2. Welsh: from an Anglicized form of
the personal name Llywelyn (see Llewellyn)."

[Lewis]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

Maybe? I have always thought of it as generic British name, albeit
not that common. In the US it is very rare as a first name, with the
French Looee (though mispronounced as Lewis) is much more common.

[HVS]

Post by Lewis

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

On Tue, 11 May 2021 08:46:30 +0100, phil

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just
yielded words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or
two of them stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when
a girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me
"Sickle Van Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah"
wouldn't have been difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I
remembered that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there
was a teacher called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

Maybe? I have always thought of it as generic British name, albeit
not that common. In the US it is very rare as a first name, with
the French Looee (though mispronounced as Lewis) is much more
common.

I think that pronouncing "Louis" as "Lewis" has been around in
England for so long that it can't really be classed ss a
"mispronunciation".

Like "Morris" for "Maurice", "Raif" for "Ralph", or (if we include
place names) "Bew-lee" for "Beaulieu" -- the pronunciation is a
regional variant, rather than an error.

[Lewis]

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis
Maybe? I have always thought of it as generic British name, albeit
not that common. In the US it is very rare as a first name, with
the French Looee (though mispronounced as Lewis) is much more
common.

I think that pronouncing "Louis" as "Lewis" has been around in
England for so long that it can't really be classed ss a
"mispronunciation".

This Lewis disagrees.

[Janet]

In article <***@m1mini.local>, ***@kreme.dont-
email.me says...

Post by Lewis

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

Maybe? I have always thought of it as generic British name, albeit
not that common.

To me its very Welsh.

wiki

"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.

Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

Janet

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Janet
To me its very Welsh.
wiki
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

After Jones, Jones, Jones, Jones, and Jones?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Wed, 12 May 2021 07:47:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet
To me its very Welsh.
wiki
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

After Jones, Jones, Jones, Jones, and Jones?

<smile>

This lists "11 of the most common Welsh surnames":
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/11-most-common-welsh-surnames-18832488

1. JONES
2. DAVIES
3. HUGHES
4. EDWARDS
5. LLOYD
6. ELLIS
7. EVANS
8. PARRY
9. ROBERTS
10. WILLIAMS
11. WYNNE

The article points out that not all of those typically Welsh names are
derived from the Welsh language.

For example, head of the list is Jones:

This surname isn't Welsh however, and in fact originates from
England meaning 'John's son'. John is derived from the Latin
Johannes, meaning "Yaweh is gracious".

And:

Under the Laws in Wales Act 1532-1542, the Welsh were asked to adopt
a system of surnames similar to the English. Traditionally, they had
a variety of old Pagan and Catholic devotional names, but under
English law, the Welsh had to resort to a short catalogue of 'safe'
and 'respectable' Christian names such as John, Thomas and David.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 12 May 2021 07:47:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet
To me its very Welsh.
wiki
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

After Jones, Jones, Jones, Jones, and Jones?

<smile>
https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/11-most-common-welsh-surnames-18832488
1. JONES
2. DAVIES
3. HUGHES
4. EDWARDS
5. LLOYD
6. ELLIS
7. EVANS
8. PARRY
9. ROBERTS
10. WILLIAMS
11. WYNNE

Lewis doesn't even make the list!

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The article points out that not all of those typically Welsh names are
derived from the Welsh language.
This surname isn't Welsh however, and in fact originates from
England meaning 'John's son'. John is derived from the Latin
Johannes, meaning "Yaweh is gracious".
Under the Laws in Wales Act 1532-1542, the Welsh were asked to adopt
a system of surnames similar to the English. Traditionally, they had
a variety of old Pagan and Catholic devotional names, but under
English law, the Welsh had to resort to a short catalogue of 'safe'
and 'respectable' Christian names such as John, Thomas and David.

So they went with David. Was no St. Lloyd available? or Llewelyn?

[Mack A. Damia]

On Wed, 12 May 2021 07:47:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Janet
To me its very Welsh.
wiki
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

After Jones, Jones, Jones, Jones, and Jones?

A secret agent was sent to Wales to pick up some very sensitive
information from an agent called Jones. His instructions were to walk
around town using a code phrase until he met his fellow agent:

"The sun is shining..... the grass is growing..... the cows are ready
for milking."

He found himself on a desolate country road and finally ran into a
farmer.

"Hello, said the agent, "I'm looking for a man called Jones."

"Well you're in luck," said the farmer, "as it happens, there's a
village right over the hill, where there's a butcher called Jones, the
baker is named Jones, three widows are called Jones. In fact my name
is Jones."

Aha, thought the agent, here's my man. So he whispered the secret
code. "The sun is shining..... the grass is growing..... the cows are
ready for milking."

"Oh" said the farmer, "you're looking for Jones the spy -- he's in the
village over the other direction."

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Janet
email.me says...

Post by Lewis

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

Maybe? I have always thought of it as generic British name, albeit
not that common.

To me its very Welsh.
wiki
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

So why was he a Geordie?

Not that I could tell from his accent, but apparently British people can.

(And yes, I know people are allowed to more around, and "very Welsh"
doesn't mean "exclusively Welsh".)

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet

Post by Lewis

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

Maybe? I have always thought of it as generic British name, albeit
not that common.

To me its very Welsh.
wiki
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

So why was he a Geordie?

You'd have to look through the Morse corpus (and there's always a
corpus) for clues. Or it was just that it fitted with the actor when
casting the tv series.

Post by Jerry Friedman
Not that I could tell from his accent, but apparently British people can.

Yes, it's clear, but not so heavy an accent as to be unintelligible to
the rest of the country.

Post by Jerry Friedman
(And yes, I know people are allowed to more around, and "very Welsh"
doesn't mean "exclusively Welsh".)

It did strike me, when someone said that 'Clovis' or 'Clouis' was
cognate, that if the Welsh word was 'Llewis' there's be precious little
between them.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet

Post by Lewis

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

Maybe? I have always thought of it as generic British name, albeit
not that common.

To me its very Welsh.
wiki
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

So why was he a Geordie?

You'd have to look through the Morse corpus (and there's always a
corpus) for clues. Or it was just that it fitted with the actor when
casting the tv series.

Post by Jerry Friedman
Not that I could tell from his accent, but apparently British people can.

Yes, it's clear, but not so heavy an accent as to be unintelligible to
the rest of the country.

French TV takes the view that any slight deviation from standard
Parisian makes speech unintelligible. That's why we get popular series
like Un si Grand Soleil (set in Sète, near Montpellier) or Plus Belle
la Vie (set in Marseilles), in which everyone from the local rich guy
to the cleaning ladies speak standard Parisian French, in most cases
without even a suggestion of a southern accent. Possibly related, a far
higher proportion of the actors have fair hair and blue eyes than you
find in real people in the places concerned.

Lewis of course speaks standard French. I've never heard his Geordie.

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Jerry Friedman
(And yes, I know people are allowed to more around, and "very Welsh"
doesn't mean "exclusively Welsh".)

It did strike me, when someone said that 'Clovis' or 'Clouis' was
cognate, that if the Welsh word was 'Llewis' there's be precious little
between them.

[Lewis]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet

Post by Lewis

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

Maybe? I have always thought of it as generic British name, albeit
not that common.

To me its very Welsh.
wiki
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

So why was he a Geordie?

You'd have to look through the Morse corpus (and there's always a
corpus) for clues. Or it was just that it fitted with the actor when
casting the tv series.

Post by Jerry Friedman
Not that I could tell from his accent, but apparently British people can.

Yes, it's clear, but not so heavy an accent as to be unintelligible to
the rest of the country.

Depends on how strong the accent is. There's this classic bit from Alan
Partridge (starts about 1:40 in, not suitable fro Stefan).

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Lewis

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet

Post by Lewis

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

Maybe? I have always thought of it as generic British name, albeit
not that common.

To me its very Welsh.
wiki
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

So why was he a Geordie?

You'd have to look through the Morse corpus (and there's always a
corpus) for clues. Or it was just that it fitted with the actor when
casting the tv series.

Post by Jerry Friedman
Not that I could tell from his accent, but apparently British people can.

Yes, it's clear, but not so heavy an accent as to be unintelligible to
the rest of the country.

Depends on how strong the accent is. There's this classic bit from Alan
Partridge (starts about 1:40 in, not suitable fro Stefan).
http://youtu.be/m4T_4uLQ7e0

Well, ifhedidn'ttalksofast...

I had trouble understanding the pretty girl, too--particularly the first word
she spoke, which is probably the funniest thing in the whole funny bit.
(Note to self: Do not ask people to speculate.)

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Lewis

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet

Post by Lewis

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

Maybe? I have always thought of it as generic British name, albeit
not that common.

To me its very Welsh.
wiki
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

So why was he a Geordie?

You'd have to look through the Morse corpus (and there's always a
corpus) for clues. Or it was just that it fitted with the actor when
casting the tv series.

Post by Jerry Friedman
Not that I could tell from his accent, but apparently British people can.

Yes, it's clear, but not so heavy an accent as to be unintelligible to
the rest of the country.

Depends on how strong the accent is. There's this classic bit from Alan
Partridge (starts about 1:40 in, not suitable fro Stefan).
http://youtu.be/m4T_4uLQ7e0

Well, ifhedidn'ttalksofast...
I had trouble understanding the pretty girl, too--particularly the first word
she spoke, which is probably the funniest thing in the whole funny bit.
(Note to self: Do not ask people to speculate.)

At the very beginning she says "Mr Partridge?"

If you mean her response to:
"Do you know what it says on the side of my car?"
Her suggestion is "Tosser?"

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

So why was he a Geordie?

You'd have to look through the Morse corpus (and there's always a
corpus) for clues.

I leave that to the detectives. I don't think there was anything notably
regional about Lewis in the books I read.

Post by Paul Wolff
Or it was just that it fitted with the actor when
casting the tv series.

...

Or they thought that accent, which I guess Kevin Whately came equipped
with, would make a piquant contrast to John Thaw's.

[musika]

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Janet
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

So why was he a Geordie?

You'd have to look through the Morse corpus (and there's always a
corpus) for clues.

I leave that to the detectives. I don't think there was anything notably
regional about Lewis in the books I read.

Post by Paul Wolff
Or it was just that it fitted with the actor when
casting the tv series.

...
Or they thought that accent, which I guess Kevin Whately came equipped
with, would make a piquant contrast to John Thaw's.

In the books, Lewis was about 60 and Welsh. Dexter said later that
Whatley's portrayal of Lewis was much better than the one he created.

[Lewis]

Post by Janet
email.me says...

Post by Lewis

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by HVS

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel
doesn't appeal at all.

I recall someone at primary school who decided to call me "Sickle Van
Harvey", even though the Jewish-looking "Yevrah" wouldn't have been
difficult to pronounce.

I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

Maybe? I have always thought of it as generic British name, albeit
not that common.

To me its very Welsh.
wiki
"In the United Kingdom Lewis is most commonly associated with Wales,
and is a common Welsh Patronym.
Lewis <....> is the 6th most common surname in Wales, "

And we were talking about first names, which was clear in the rest of my
paragraph you snipped.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Lewis

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I was thinking that "Siwel" looked a bit Welsh, but then I remembered
that "Lewis" is a bit Welsh. At my first school there was a teacher
called Lewis who was certainly Welsh.

Maybe? I have always thought of it as generic British name, albeit
not that common. In the US it is very rare as a first name, with the
French Looee (though mispronounced as Lewis) is much more common.

Wow. Now the Screwie one thinks Louis Armstrong was French.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel doesn't
appeal at all.

There's a suburb of Melbourne called St Kilda. At my primary school some
kids liked to ask "How do you say St Kilda backwards?" The expected
answer was "Kilda Saint", at which point you would be mocked for killing
a saint.

They were most annoyed when I replied "adlik tnias".

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Wed, 12 May 2021 12:55:16 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel doesn't
appeal at all.

There's a suburb of Melbourne called St Kilda. At my primary school some
kids liked to ask "How do you say St Kilda backwards?" The expected
answer was "Kilda Saint", at which point you would be mocked for killing
a saint.
They were most annoyed when I replied "adlik tnias".

Presumably St Kilda in Melbourne is named after the Scottish place.

About the name:

Firstly there is no known saint name Kilda.

This mentions many possibilities:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda,_Scotland#Origin_of_names

Just the introductory paragraph:

Various theories have been proposed for the word Kilda's origin,
which dates from the late 16th century. No saint is known by the
name.[16] Haswell-Smith (2004) notes that the full name St Kilda
first appears on a Dutch map dated 1666, and that it might have been
derived from Norse sunt kelda ("sweet wellwater") or from a mistaken
Dutch assumption that the spring Tobar Childa was dedicated to a
saint. (Tobar Childa is a tautological placename, consisting of the
Gaelic and Norse words for well, i.e., "well well").[3] Martin
Martin, who visited in 1697, believed that the name "is taken from
one Kilder, who lived here; and from him the large well Toubir-Kilda
has also its name".[17]

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 12 May 2021 12:55:16 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Lewis

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded
words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them
stuck as nicknames.

I would have been Y not....a question I often had to ask when a
girl turned some request of mine.

I am quite happy that never happened at my schools,as Siwel doesn't
appeal at all.

There's a suburb of Melbourne called St Kilda. At my primary school some
kids liked to ask "How do you say St Kilda backwards?" The expected
answer was "Kilda Saint", at which point you would be mocked for killing
a saint.
They were most annoyed when I replied "adlik tnias".

Presumably St Kilda in Melbourne is named after the Scottish place.
Firstly there is no known saint name Kilda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda,_Scotland#Origin_of_names
Various theories have been proposed for the word Kilda's origin,
which dates from the late 16th century. No saint is known by the
name.[16] Haswell-Smith (2004) notes that the full name St Kilda
first appears on a Dutch map dated 1666, and that it might have been
derived from Norse sunt kelda ("sweet wellwater") or from a mistaken
Dutch assumption that the spring Tobar Childa was dedicated to a
saint. (Tobar Childa is a tautological placename, consisting of the
Gaelic and Norse words for well, i.e., "well well").[3] Martin
Martin, who visited in 1697, believed that the name "is taken from
one Kilder, who lived here; and from him the large well Toubir-Kilda
has also its name".[17]

The origin of the place name in Melbourne is also roundabout.
According to Wikipedia, the Melbourne suburb was named after the
schooner "Lady of St Kilda". The schooner Lady of St Kilda was named in
honour of Lady Grange, who was imprisoned by her husband between 1734
and 1740 on the island of Hirta, the largest island in the St Kilda
archipelago, on the western edge of Scotland.

What I didn't know until now is that the Scottish place is even more
outer than the outer Hebrides. I gather that that makes for a pretty
miserable climate, with regular gael-force winds.

This is on topic for AUE because of the sheep population.

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Wed, 12 May 2021 12:55:16 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
There's a suburb of Melbourne called St Kilda. At my primary school some
kids liked to ask "How do you say St Kilda backwards?" The expected
answer was "Kilda Saint", at which point you would be mocked for killing
a saint.
They were most annoyed when I replied "adlik tnias".

Presumably St Kilda in Melbourne is named after the Scottish place.
Firstly there is no known saint name Kilda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda,_Scotland#Origin_of_names
Various theories have been proposed for the word Kilda's origin,
which dates from the late 16th century. No saint is known by the
name.[16] Haswell-Smith (2004) notes that the full name St Kilda
first appears on a Dutch map dated 1666, and that it might have been
derived from Norse sunt kelda ("sweet wellwater") or from a mistaken
Dutch assumption that the spring Tobar Childa was dedicated to a
saint. (Tobar Childa is a tautological placename, consisting of the
Gaelic and Norse words for well, i.e., "well well").[3] Martin
Martin, who visited in 1697, believed that the name "is taken from
one Kilder, who lived here; and from him the large well Toubir-Kilda
has also its name".[17]

The origin of the place name in Melbourne is also roundabout.
According to Wikipedia, the Melbourne suburb was named after the
schooner "Lady of St Kilda". The schooner Lady of St Kilda was named in
honour of Lady Grange, who was imprisoned by her husband between 1734
and 1740 on the island of Hirta, the largest island in the St Kilda
archipelago, on the western edge of Scotland.
What I didn't know until now is that the Scottish place is even more
outer than the outer Hebrides. I gather that that makes for a pretty
miserable climate, with regular gael-force winds.

Rather nice! A bit like the bagpipes?

Post by Peter Moylan
This is on topic for AUE because of the sheep population.

Oh good. We could discuss the Soay of St Kilda, said to be the only
living example of the small primitive sheep that inhabited the British
Isles before the Romans arrived here (but probably never arrived in St
Kilda).

[Quinn C]

Post by Peter Moylan
The origin of the place name in Melbourne is also roundabout.
According to Wikipedia, the Melbourne suburb was named after the
schooner "Lady of St Kilda". The schooner Lady of St Kilda was named in
honour of Lady Grange, who was imprisoned by her husband between 1734
and 1740 on the island of Hirta, the largest island in the St Kilda
archipelago, on the western edge of Scotland.
What I didn't know until now is that the Scottish place is even more
outer than the outer Hebrides. I gather that that makes for a pretty
miserable climate, with regular gael-force winds.

That far out, maybe even more of an icy Norse wind?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

[ … ]

Presumably St Kilda in Melbourne is named after the Scottish place.
Firstly there is no known saint name Kilda.

That happens when names are adopted by people who don't know the
starting language. There is a village in southern France called St
Chinian, but there is no saint called Chinian. There is, however, one
called Inian, and the Occitan name of the village is Sanch Inian. In
French the ch got moved from the end of one word to the beginning of
the other.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Presumably St Kilda in Melbourne is named after the Scottish place.
Firstly there is no known saint name Kilda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda,_Scotland#Origin_of_names
Various theories have been proposed for the word Kilda's origin,
which dates from the late 16th century. No saint is known by the
name.[16] Haswell-Smith (2004) notes that the full name St Kilda
first appears on a Dutch map dated 1666, and that it might have been
derived from Norse sunt kelda ("sweet wellwater") or from a mistaken
Dutch assumption that the spring Tobar Childa was dedicated to a
saint. (Tobar Childa is a tautological placename, consisting of the
Gaelic and Norse words for well, i.e., "well well").[3] Martin
Martin, who visited in 1697, believed that the name "is taken from
one Kilder, who lived here; and from him the large well Toubir-Kilda
has also its name".[17]

Does no one suggest a simple misreading of Hilda? The two letters
H and K are fairly similar in many hands. And Hilda, Abbess of Whitby,
was a rather important person in the history of British Christianity.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Wed, 12 May 2021 07:51:00 -0700 (PDT)

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Presumably St Kilda in Melbourne is named after the Scottish place.
Firstly there is no known saint name Kilda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda,_Scotland#Origin_of_names
Various theories have been proposed for the word Kilda's origin,
which dates from the late 16th century. No saint is known by the
name.[16] Haswell-Smith (2004) notes that the full name St Kilda
first appears on a Dutch map dated 1666, and that it might have been
derived from Norse sunt kelda ("sweet wellwater") or from a mistaken
Dutch assumption that the spring Tobar Childa was dedicated to a
saint. (Tobar Childa is a tautological placename, consisting of the
Gaelic and Norse words for well, i.e., "well well").[3] Martin
Martin, who visited in 1697, believed that the name "is taken from
one Kilder, who lived here; and from him the large well Toubir-Kilda
has also its name".[17]

Does no one suggest a simple misreading of Hilda? The two letters
H and K are fairly similar in many hands. And Hilda, Abbess of Whitby,
was a rather important person in the history of British Christianity.

Sheesh. (Longer commentary elided)

[charles]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
Presumably St Kilda in Melbourne is named after the Scottish place.
Firstly there is no known saint name Kilda.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Kilda,_Scotland#Origin_of_names
Various theories have been proposed for the word Kilda's origin,
which dates from the late 16th century. No saint is known by the
name.[16] Haswell-Smith (2004) notes that the full name St Kilda
first appears on a Dutch map dated 1666, and that it might have been
derived from Norse sunt kelda ("sweet wellwater") or from a mistaken
Dutch assumption that the spring Tobar Childa was dedicated to a
saint. (Tobar Childa is a tautological placename, consisting of the
Gaelic and Norse words for well, i.e., "well well").[3] Martin
Martin, who visited in 1697, believed that the name "is taken from
one Kilder, who lived here; and from him the large well Toubir-Kilda
has also its name".[17]

Does no one suggest a simple misreading of Hilda? The two letters
H and K are fairly similar in many hands. And Hilda, Abbess of Whitby,
was a rather important person in the history of British Christianity.

but not in Celtic Christianity (St Columba style)

[Quinn C]

Post by phil

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Lewis

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between  consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

No, "midges".  "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

Not only M names; James Ure, formerly of Visage, Ultravox and other
bands, is known as Midge. Wikipedia explains that "His stage name,
Midge, is a phonetic reversal of Jim, the diminutive form of his
actual name."

One of my daughters was known as Yoj [jɔd͡ʒ] for a while, a spelling
reversal rather than a phonetic reversal, because when she was learning
to write she knew how to spell her name, putting the letters in the
right order (in time), but writing them from right to left.

I remember a brief period at school when it was considered amusing to
spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded words that were
difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them stuck as nicknames.

I could say my own name and those of my siblings backwards (based on
spelling) fluently as a child. All parts (given names and family name)
reversed. I guess it's indicative of the character trait that landed me
here.

[Ross Clark]

Post by Quinn C

Post by phil

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Lewis

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

They don't insert the schwa to "make it really clear...", as if they
were showing off. They insert it because they _cannot pronounce_
word-initial [kn]. English has no words like this. When they feel they
have to pronounce the [k] (as for these names), the closest they can get
is to add an extra syllable (as in "connect" or "Canadian").

In my speech the vowel between  consonants in "kn" is reduced to
the aspiration on the "k". I feel a real "kn" would not have aspiration.
Does anybody know whether the "k" was aspirated back when English
speakers still pronounced the "k".
I have learned how to say "kn" with both consonants and no aspiration
and I always allude to Donald Knuth that way.

No problem, in Dutch. 'Knut, Knutten'
are the pest known to you as Midgets,

No, "midges".  "Midget" is a deprecated term for a small person.
A "midge" is a gnat.

It is also a name or nickname, often for women name Margaret, Marjorie, or
Mildred. And Probably other M names as well.

Not only M names; James Ure, formerly of Visage, Ultravox and other
bands, is known as Midge. Wikipedia explains that "His stage name,
Midge, is a phonetic reversal of Jim, the diminutive form of his
actual name."

One of my daughters was known as Yoj [jɔd͡ʒ] for a while, a spelling
reversal rather than a phonetic reversal, because when she was learning
to write she knew how to spell her name, putting the letters in the
right order (in time), but writing them from right to left.

I remember a brief period at school when it was considered amusing to
spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded words that were
difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them stuck as nicknames.

I could say my own name and those of my siblings backwards (based on
spelling) fluently as a child. All parts (given names and family name)
reversed. I guess it's indicative of the character trait that landed me
here.

A school friend of mine liked to do that with his full (three-word)
name, which turned out to be quite pronounceable. His middle name
backwards came out as "Nilknarf", which I thought sounded pretty cool.
Could have been a minor character in Lord of the Rings.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Ross Clark
A school friend of mine liked to do that with his full (three-word)
name, which turned out to be quite pronounceable. His middle name
backwards came out as "Nilknarf", which I thought sounded pretty cool.
Could have been a minor character in Lord of the Rings.

Years ago, I had a friend who had his name spelled backwards in the
telephone book. When anyone called and asked for that backwards name, he
knew it wasn't anyone he knew, so his standard reply was "He just died.
We're laying him out right now."

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Ross Clark
A school friend of mine liked to do that with his full
(three-word) name, which turned out to be quite pronounceable. His
middle name backwards came out as "Nilknarf", which I thought
sounded pretty cool. Could have been a minor character in Lord of
the Rings.

Years ago, I had a friend who had his name spelled backwards in the
telephone book. When anyone called and asked for that backwards name,
he knew it wasn't anyone he knew, so his standard reply was "He just
died. We're laying him out right now."

Also years ago, we used to get almost daily nuisance calls for a person
whose phone number was apparently a permutation of ours. Initially we
used to reply politely when we heard "Can I speak to Mildred?". Then we
started replying with "You silly idiot, you've dialled the wrong number
again". Eventually it was too much for my wife, who answered with
"Sorry, she's dead".

The calls stopped after that.

My father often answered the phone with "Mulligan's meatworks, Murphy
speaking". His friends understood this. (Sometimes, when I answered the
phone, someone would ask to speak to Murphy.) If it confused his
non-friends, that didn't bother him.

Lately I've been considering answering the phone with "Waratah Police",
but most of the time I'd be saying it to a recorded message.

[Ken Blake]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ken Blake

Post by Ross Clark
A school friend of mine liked to do that with his full
(three-word) name, which turned out to be quite pronounceable. His
middle name backwards came out as "Nilknarf", which I thought
sounded pretty cool. Could have been a minor character in Lord of
the Rings.

Years ago, I had a friend who had his name spelled backwards in the
telephone book. When anyone called and asked for that backwards name,
he knew it wasn't anyone he knew, so his standard reply was "He just
died. We're laying him out right now."

Also years ago, we used to get almost daily nuisance calls for a person
whose phone number was apparently a permutation of ours. Initially we
used to reply politely when we heard "Can I speak to Mildred?". Then we
started replying with "You silly idiot, you've dialled the wrong number
again". Eventually it was too much for my wife, who answered with
"Sorry, she's dead".
The calls stopped after that.
My father often answered the phone with "Mulligan's meatworks, Murphy
speaking". His friends understood this. (Sometimes, when I answered the
phone, someone would ask to speak to Murphy.) If it confused his
non-friends, that didn't bother him.
Lately I've been considering answering the phone with "Waratah Police",
but most of the time I'd be saying it to a recorded message.

I used to sometimes answer with "Duffy's Tavern. Archie the manager
speaking. Duffy ain't here."

Those of you too young or not in the USA might not know the reference.
"Duffy's Tavern" was a radio show that I listened to regularly as a
child. It always began with the line above..

[Lewis]

Post by Peter Moylan
Also years ago, we used to get almost daily nuisance calls for a person
whose phone number was apparently a permutation of ours. Initially we
used to reply politely when we heard "Can I speak to Mildred?". Then we
started replying with "You silly idiot, you've dialled the wrong number
again". Eventually it was too much for my wife, who answered with
"Sorry, she's dead".

We had a time when we kept getting calls from various coolection
agencies for someone we'd never heard of, but they would continue
calling, often the same person would call multiple times in a row.

"He's in jail" and immediately hanging uo finally put a stop to the
calls.

(We really did not want to change our phone number, as it was an
excellent number ending in "00".)

Post by Peter Moylan
My father often answered the phone with "Mulligan's meatworks, Murphy
speaking". His friends understood this. (Sometimes, when I answered the
phone, someone would ask to speak to Murphy.) If it confused his
non-friends, that didn't bother him.

My father had our number listed under a fake name, and people would call
and ask for the fake name and I'd tell them, as instructed, that he
wasn't available.

Often they would insist they were old friends or worked with him or
needed to talk to him right now and would try to wheedle another number
or a workplace from me. At the time I found it entertaining, and would
often string them along.

Post by Peter Moylan
Lately I've been considering answering the phone with "Waratah Police",
but most of the time I'd be saying it to a recorded message.

I recommend the following solutions to solve all phone problems

1) no 'land line'
2) Keep all your contacts on your phone
3) Never answer a call that doesn't show a contact name, never answer
a call that start with the first 5 or 6 digits as your number.
4) Voicemail greeting "If you're not in my contacts, leave a message;
if you don't leave a message your number will be blocked.
5) Block any unknown numbers that don't leave a message

my ringtone on my phone is "silent.m4r" and I only ever answer calls
from people who not only are in my contacts, but have a custom rintone
set, since I do not even hear the other calls.

After a half decade of consistently following those steps I've
eliminated all the garbage calls and the only calls I get now are
people I actually am willing to talk to.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by phil

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Not only M names; James Ure, formerly of Visage, Ultravox and other
bands, is known as Midge. Wikipedia explains that "His stage name,
Midge, is a phonetic reversal of Jim, the diminutive form of his
actual name."

One of my daughters was known as Yoj [jɔd͡ʒ] for a while, a spelling
reversal rather than a phonetic reversal, because when she was learning
to write she knew how to spell her name, putting the letters in the
right order (in time), but writing them from right to left.

I remember a brief period at school when it was considered amusing to
spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded words that were
difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them stuck as nicknames.

Were a lot of your classmates yobs?

[phil]

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by phil

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Not only M names; James Ure, formerly of Visage, Ultravox and other
bands, is known as Midge. Wikipedia explains that "His stage name,
Midge, is a phonetic reversal of Jim, the diminutive form of his
actual name."

One of my daughters was known as Yoj [jɔd͡ʒ] for a while, a spelling
reversal rather than a phonetic reversal, because when she was learning
to write she knew how to spell her name, putting the letters in the
right order (in time), but writing them from right to left.

I remember a brief period at school when it was considered amusing to
spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded words that were
difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them stuck as nicknames.

Were a lot of your classmates yobs?

None of them were lrigs.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by phil

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by phil

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Not only M names; James Ure, formerly of Visage, Ultravox and other
bands, is known as Midge. Wikipedia explains that "His stage name,
Midge, is a phonetic reversal of Jim, the diminutive form of his
actual name."

One of my daughters was known as Yoj [jɔd͡ʒ] for a while, a spelling
reversal rather than a phonetic reversal, because when she was learning
to write she knew how to spell her name, putting the letters in the
right order (in time), but writing them from right to left.

I remember a brief period at school when it was considered amusing to
spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just yielded words that were
difficult to pronounce, but one or two of them stuck as nicknames.

Were a lot of your classmates yobs?

None of them were lrigs.

None of mine either, alas. The daughter of my prep school headmaster
became a pupil, but that was after my time (I think).

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by phil

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just
yielded words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two
of them stuck as nicknames.

Were a lot of your classmates yobs?

None of them were lrigs.

None of mine either, alas. The daughter of my prep school headmaster
became a pupil, but that was after my time (I think).

Both of my schools were mixed-sex, but towards the end of high school
the girls gradually disappeared from the subjects I was taking. The
exception was the daughter of the deputy principal, whose father had
obviously convinced her that it was OK to do "unfeminine" subjects like
chemistry, physics, and mathematics.

The situation has improved since then, but not enough. It's still hard
to convince girls to take what they think of as the "hard" subjects. A
lot of the reason for that is social pressure, I think, and especially
pressure from their parents.

[Lewis]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by phil

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just
yielded words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two
of them stuck as nicknames.

Were a lot of your classmates yobs?

None of them were lrigs.

None of mine either, alas. The daughter of my prep school headmaster
became a pupil, but that was after my time (I think).

Both of my schools were mixed-sex, but towards the end of high school
the girls gradually disappeared from the subjects I was taking. The
exception was the daughter of the deputy principal, whose father had
obviously convinced her that it was OK to do "unfeminine" subjects like
chemistry, physics, and mathematics.

In my high school Chemistry (1 year) and mathematics (4 years) were
required for all students. I think you could avoid physics, but it took
some effort. I'm not sure of the order of math classes because I didn't
follow it but I think it was Algebra, Geometry, Algebra II, and Trig
for most students. I took Algebra in Jr High, so my high school math
went Geometry. Calculus, AP Calculus, Algebra II (which I took for fun
and to fill a period my senior year).

Post by Peter Moylan
The situation has improved since then, but not enough. It's still hard
to convince girls to take what they think of as the "hard" subjects. A
lot of the reason for that is social pressure, I think, and especially
pressure from their parents.

And if not their parents, other girls their age who insist that hair
and make-up and clothing and popularity are more important than school.
And if not their parents and peers, then teacehers who route girls into
lower tracks for the simple reason they are not boys.

When my wife took Algebra she got an A in the class, but the teacher put
her into the 'middle' track of math for the next year, stating she was
not ready for the second year of algebra, Boys who got Cs advanced.

She still considers that teacher to be a bastard, and it's been 40
years. (She's right, he was a bastard who always showed his favoritism,
the only reason she got an A was because the testing was not specific to
which teacher's class you were in).

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Lewis

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by phil

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by phil
I remember a brief period at school when it was considered
amusing to spell boys' names backwards. Mostly this just
yielded words that were difficult to pronounce, but one or two
of them stuck as nicknames.

Were a lot of your classmates yobs?

None of them were lrigs.

None of mine either, alas. The daughter of my prep school headmaster
became a pupil, but that was after my time (I think).

Both of my schools were mixed-sex, but towards the end of high school
the girls gradually disappeared from the subjects I was taking. The
exception was the daughter of the deputy principal, whose father had
obviously convinced her that it was OK to do "unfeminine" subjects like
chemistry, physics, and mathematics.

In my high school Chemistry (1 year) and mathematics (4 years) were
required for all students. I think you could avoid physics, but it took
some effort. I'm not sure of the order of math classes because I didn't
follow it but I think it was Algebra, Geometry, Algebra II, and Trig
for most students. I took Algebra in Jr High, so my high school math
went Geometry. Calculus, AP Calculus, Algebra II (which I took for fun
and to fill a period my senior year).

Post by Peter Moylan
The situation has improved since then, but not enough. It's still hard
to convince girls to take what they think of as the "hard" subjects. A
lot of the reason for that is social pressure, I think, and especially
pressure from their parents.

And if not their parents, other girls their age who insist that hair
and make-up and clothing and popularity are more important than school.
And if not their parents and peers, then teacehers who route girls into
lower tracks for the simple reason they are not boys.
When my wife took Algebra she got an A in the class, but the teacher put
her into the 'middle' track of math for the next year, stating she was
not ready for the second year of algebra, Boys who got Cs advanced.
She still considers that teacher to be a bastard, and it's been 40
years. (She's right, he was a bastard who always showed his favoritism,
the only reason she got an A was because the testing was not specific to
which teacher's class you were in).

At the beginning of the century my daughter went to a high-prestige
engineering school in Lyon (the same one as Lanarcam, but not at the
same time). For one practical they worked in pairs and had to dismantle
a car engine and then put it together again, and it had to work at the
end. My daughter's partner was a boy. The ONLY criterion for giving a
grade was the final state of the engine: they were not supervised
during the work and didn't have to submit a written report. Both my
daughter and her partner got good grades, but his was higher. Why?
Because everyone knows that girls can't build engines unless they get
helped by boys. They didn't express that argument so clearly, but was
what they meant.

I think she may have put this story behind her, but I haven't. I still
get angry when I think about it.

[Jerry Friedman]

On Wednesday, May 12, 2021 at 2:34:13 PM UTC-6, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

[sexist teachers]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
At the beginning of the century my daughter went to a high-prestige
engineering school in Lyon (the same one as Lanarcam, but not at the
same time). For one practical they worked in pairs and had to dismantle
a car engine and then put it together again, and it had to work at the
end. My daughter's partner was a boy. The ONLY criterion for giving a
grade was the final state of the engine: they were not supervised
during the work and didn't have to submit a written report. Both my
daughter and her partner got good grades, but his was higher. Why?
Because everyone knows that girls can't build engines unless they get
helped by boys. They didn't express that argument so clearly, but was
what they meant.
I think she may have put this story behind her, but I haven't. I still
get angry when I think about it.

In the U.S. at that time, in the places I was teaching at, there would have
been no difficulty about getting the grade changed. Of course your
daughter might not have had good relations with the teacher after that.

[Jack]

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth?
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth?
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

I have always pronounced it as Evil K-Nievel,
with Evil and -Nievel rhyming.
Don't know why, I think I heard an American saying it that way,

Jan

[Lewis]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Stefan Ram
His pronunciation does not seem to be registered in many
|k?ni?v?l
, what I heard in a TV show sounded to me like (from my
?i?vl? k??ni?vl?
. ([?] is between [a] and a schwa [?], more close to the [a].)
Compare this also with Donald E.
Knuth?
k??nu??
. In English, <kn> often is just [n], so when English speakers
do pronounce the <k> in <kn>, they want to make it really
clear that they do this by inserting a kind of a schwa.

I have always pronounced it as Evil K-Nievel,

Which is good, it;s nice to pronounce people's names the way they do.

Post by J. J. Lodder
with Evil and -Nievel rhyming.
Don't know why, I think I heard an American saying it that way,

It is how his name was always pronounced.

Right in the first second or so: