What is origin of 'What you mean, "we," Kemo Sabe?'

[aruzinsky]

I believe that I first saw that saying in a cartoon parody of the Lone
Ranger appearing in an imitator of Mad Magazine in the 1950s.
Originally, I thought it was Mad because they did indeed have a
cartoon parody of the Lone Ranger, but, after recently looking at a
reprint, apparently not. So, my memory was playing tricks and I now
suspect it must have been an imitator such as Cracked or Sick. The
story ends with the Lone Ranger and Tonto being surrounded by hostile
Indians. Lone Ranger says something like, "It looks like we are going
to die." and Tonto replies, 'What you mean, "we," Kemo Sabe?'

BTW, is my usage of quotation marks correct?

[Mark Brader]

Post by aruzinsky
Lone Ranger says something like, "It looks like we are going
to die." and Tonto replies, 'What you mean, "we," Kemo Sabe?'
BTW, is my usage of quotation marks correct?

No. You need to use the same type of mark for the outer level
of quoting in each instance, not the inner level. Also, when
a quotation ends with a period and the outer sentence continues,
the period is dropped, and in a typical quotation context like
this it's replaced with a comma. So one possibility -- and this
is typical North American style -- is:

| Lone Ranger says something like, "It looks like we are going
| to die," and Tonto replies, "What you mean, 'we,' Kemo Sabe?"

[R H Draney]

Post by aruzinsky
I believe that I first saw that saying in a cartoon parody of the Lone
Ranger appearing in an imitator of Mad Magazine in the 1950s.
Originally, I thought it was Mad because they did indeed have a
cartoon parody of the Lone Ranger, but, after recently looking at a
reprint, apparently not. So, my memory was playing tricks and I now
suspect it must have been an imitator such as Cracked or Sick. The
story ends with the Lone Ranger and Tonto being surrounded by hostile
Indians. Lone Ranger says something like, "It looks like we are going
to die." and Tonto replies, 'What you mean, "we," Kemo Sabe?'

Some of us may remember the musical version:

The Lone Ranger
Lyrics by: Oscar Brown Jr.
1974

The Lone Ranger and Tonto
Were riding down the Navajo Trail
When a band of Indians found em
Proceeded to surround em and
The Lone Ranger turned kinda pale

Tonto, our lives are in danger
We got to get away if we can
Tonto just looked at Lone Ranger
What you mean, we, white man

(CHORUS)
Tell me what you mean (We, white man), Tell me what you mean (we)
Tell me what you mean (We, white man), Tell me what you mean (we)
You in heap big trouble, But it don`t involve me, white man
No, it don`t involve me
It do not involve me, white man, It do not involve me

The Lone Ranger said, Tonto
Why talk about the shade of my hide
After all we been through
It would make me mighty blue
If you don`t remain by my side

We`ll steal away said the Ranger
Grab an Injun by the hand
Tonto said, turn me loose, stranger
What you mean, we, white man

(Repeat CHORUS)

The Lone Ranger cried, Tonto
Stick with me and I`ll double your pay
We can do a switch about
You give me your pony, Scout
And ride Silver, hi-ho away

But hurry up said the masked man
To get away, we`re gonna have to race
Tonto took Silver and laughed
And said what you mean, we, paleface

(Repeat CHORUS, changing "white man" to "paleface")

....r

[aruzinsky]

Post by R H Draney

Post by aruzinsky
I believe that I first saw that saying in a cartoon parody of the Lone
Ranger appearing in an imitator of Mad Magazine in the 1950s.
Originally, I thought it was Mad because they did indeed have a
cartoon parody of the Lone Ranger, but, after recently looking at a
reprint, apparently not. So, my memory was playing tricks and I now
suspect it must have been an imitator such as Cracked or Sick. The
story ends with the Lone Ranger and Tonto being surrounded by hostile
Indians. Lone Ranger says something like, "It looks like we are going
to die." and Tonto replies, 'What you mean, "we," Kemo Sabe?'

The Lone Ranger
Lyrics by: Oscar Brown Jr.
1974
The Lone Ranger and Tonto
Were riding down the Navajo Trail
When a band of Indians found em
Proceeded to surround em and
The Lone Ranger turned kinda pale
Tonto, our lives are in danger
We got to get away if we can
Tonto just looked at Lone Ranger
What you mean, we, white man
(CHORUS)
Tell me what you mean (We, white man), Tell me what you mean (we)
Tell me what you mean (We, white man), Tell me what you mean (we)
You in heap big trouble, But it don`t involve me, white man
No, it don`t involve me
It do not involve me, white man, It do not involve me
The Lone Ranger said, Tonto
Why talk about the shade of my hide
After all we been through
It would make me mighty blue
If you don`t remain by my side
We`ll steal away said the Ranger
Grab an Injun by the hand
Tonto said, turn me loose, stranger
What you mean, we, white man
(Repeat CHORUS)
The Lone Ranger cried, Tonto
Stick with me and I`ll double your pay
We can do a switch about
You give me your pony, Scout
And ride Silver, hi-ho away
But hurry up said the masked man
To get away, we`re gonna have to race
Tonto took Silver and laughed
And said what you mean, we, paleface
(Repeat CHORUS, changing "white man" to "paleface")
....r
--
"He come in the night when one sleep on a bed.
With a hand he have the basket and foods."
- David Sedaris explains the Easter rabbit

Well, that explains why the saying is popular, but, now, I am
disturbed that this Oscar Brown Jr. failed to give credit to where he
got the idea. I have a relatively good picture memory therefore I am
fairly certain that I saw the idea in a cartoon parody. I am not
going to quibble about "Kemo Sabe," "white man" or "paleface" because
my memory is much more faulty on verbal details.

I am uncertain about the time, but, it seems much more likely that the
cartoon was published while the Lone Ranger TV show was originally
broadcast 1949 to 1957. The MAD story, Lone Stranger Rides Again, had
a similar (but less clever) ending. It was first published in MAD
comics, Dec. 1953 - Jan. 1954, vol. 1, No. 8. Cartoons from MAD
comics were later published in pocket book form after Mad comic book
became MAD Magzine in 1955. This is around the same time that MAD
Magazine imitators sprang into existence. Thus, it seems likely to me
that one of the MAD imitators copied and improved MAD's story and that
is the story I remember while confusing it with MAD's story.

What is "filted?"

[James Silverton]

aruzinsky wrote on Thu, 22 Nov 2007 15:55:26 -0800 (PST):

a> On Nov 22, 2:17 pm, R H Draney <***@spamcop.net> wrote:
??>> aruzinsky filted:
??>>
??>>> I believe that I first saw that saying in a cartoon
??>>> parody of the Lone Ranger appearing in an imitator of Mad
??>>> Magazine in the 1950s.
??>>> Originally, I thought it was Mad because they did indeed
??>>> have a cartoon parody of the Lone Ranger, but, after
??>>> recently looking at a reprint, apparently not. So, my
??>>> memory was playing tricks and I now suspect it must have
??>>> been an imitator such as Cracked or Sick. The story ends
??>>> with the Lone Ranger and Tonto being surrounded by
??>>> hostile Indians. Lone Ranger says something like, "It
??>>> looks like we are going to die." and Tonto replies, 'What
??>>> you mean, "we," Kemo Sabe?'

I wonder if anyone else remembers a cartoon from about 20 years
ago showing an elderly Lone Ranger, leafing through a
"Dictionary of the Apache Language" and reading "Kemo Sabe: old
phrase for horse's ass".

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

[James Silverton]

James wrote to aruzinsky on Fri, 23 Nov 2007 00:02:24 GMT:

a>> On Nov 22, 2:17 pm, R H Draney <***@spamcop.net>
wrote:
??>>> aruzinsky filted:
??>>>
??>>>> I believe that I first saw that saying in a cartoon
??>>>> parody of the Lone Ranger appearing in an imitator of
??>>>> Mad Magazine in the 1950s. Originally, I thought it was
??>>>> Mad because they did indeed have a cartoon parody of the
??>>>> Lone Ranger, but, after recently looking at a reprint,
??>>>> apparently not. So, my memory was playing tricks and I
??>>>> now suspect it must have been an imitator such as
??>>>> Cracked or Sick. The story ends with the Lone Ranger
??>>>> and Tonto being surrounded by hostile Indians. Lone
??>>>> Ranger says something like, "It looks like we are going
??>>>> to die." and Tonto replies, 'What you mean, "we," Kemo
??>>>> Sabe?'

JS> I wonder if anyone else remembers a cartoon from about 20
JS> years ago showing an elderly Lone Ranger, leafing through a
JS> "Dictionary of the Apache Language" and reading "Kemo Sabe:
old
JS> phrase for horse's ass".

A Google search appears to indicate the "Kemo Sabe"-"Horse's
Ass" cartoon was by Gary Larson in his Far Side series but I
cannot find an image. Has anyone come across it?

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

[Nick Atty]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:57:08 GMT, "James Silverton"

Post by James Silverton
??>>>
??>>>> I believe that I first saw that saying in a cartoon
??>>>> parody of the Lone Ranger appearing in an imitator of
??>>>> Mad Magazine in the 1950s. Originally, I thought it was
??>>>> Mad because they did indeed have a cartoon parody of the
??>>>> Lone Ranger, but, after recently looking at a reprint,
??>>>> apparently not. So, my memory was playing tricks and I
??>>>> now suspect it must have been an imitator such as
??>>>> Cracked or Sick. The story ends with the Lone Ranger
??>>>> and Tonto being surrounded by hostile Indians. Lone
??>>>> Ranger says something like, "It looks like we are going
??>>>> to die." and Tonto replies, 'What you mean, "we," Kemo
??>>>> Sabe?'
JS> I wonder if anyone else remembers a cartoon from about 20
JS> years ago showing an elderly Lone Ranger, leafing through a
old
JS> phrase for horse's ass".
A Google search appears to indicate the "Kemo Sabe"-"Horse's
Ass" cartoon was by Gary Larson in his Far Side series but I
cannot find an image. Has anyone come across it?

Yes. I even remembered it as Far Side before reading your response.

[R H Draney]

Post by Nick Atty
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:57:08 GMT, "James Silverton"

Post by James Silverton
JS> I wonder if anyone else remembers a cartoon from about 20
JS> years ago showing an elderly Lone Ranger, leafing through a
old
JS> phrase for horse's ass".
A Google search appears to indicate the "Kemo Sabe"-"Horse's
Ass" cartoon was by Gary Larson in his Far Side series but I
cannot find an image. Has anyone come across it?

Yes. I even remembered it as Far Side before reading your response.

Then again, as far back as 1960, Larry Verne may have alluded to this
translation of the phrase in his #1 hit "Mr Custer"...assuming the role of a
cowardly Cavalry soldier at the Little Big Horn, Verne attempts to placate his
attackers:

"I wonder what the Injun word for friend is.
Let's see -- friend...kemo sabe, that's it!
KEMO SABE!, HEY OUT THERE, KEMO SABE!"
<sound of arrow whizzing by>
"Nope, that itn't it..."

While the record doesn't explain what the Indians thought this soldier meant by
"kemo sabe", it would not have been possible to get a record played in those
days that contained the phrase "horse's ass"....r

[d***@gmail.com]

Actually, it was in Mad Magazine in the late1950’s. I was 11 or 12 years old then (born 1947)& loved Mad. Never a subscriber, but bought it regularly at my neighborhood pharmacy...a “drugstore”then. I was also a devoted Lone Ranger fan in the Clayton Moore days, so the Lone Ranger segment in “Scenes We’d Like To See” made a great impression on me. I kept that issue for many years, but it finally vanished in the various moves of the last 60 years. I still remember most of the cartoon frames. Tonto had this knowing smirk in the last frame.

Another “Scenes” I recall was the intro to the Loretta Young show when she would coming whirling out of a door to open the evening’s show. It was a door which she had to open & then shut as she came out. In “Scenes,” she caught her dress in the door when she closed it, ripping it off and leaving her standing there in her underwear. I used to watch the intro to her show very closely, hoping it would happen for real.😂

[Spains Harden]

Post by d***@gmail.com
Actually, it was in Mad Magazine in the late1950’s. I was 11 or 12 years old then (born 1947)& loved Mad. Never a subscriber, but bought it regularly at my neighborhood pharmacy...a “drugstore”then. I was also a devoted Lone Ranger fan in the Clayton Moore days, so the Lone Ranger segment in “Scenes We’d Like To See” made a great impression on me. I kept that issue for many years, but it finally vanished in the various moves of the last 60 years. I still remember most of the cartoon frames. Tonto had this knowing smirk in the last frame.
Another “Scenes” I recall was the intro to the Loretta Young show when she would coming whirling out of a door to open the evening’s show. It was a door which she had to open & then shut as she came out. In “Scenes,” she caught her dress in the door when she closed it, ripping it off and leaving her standing there in her underwear. I used to watch the intro to her show very closely, hoping it would happen for real.😂

Twelve years that thread lay dormant :)

[Donna Richoux]

Post by aruzinsky
I am uncertain about the time, but, it seems much more likely that the
cartoon was published while the Lone Ranger TV show was originally
broadcast 1949 to 1957. The MAD story, Lone Stranger Rides Again, had
a similar (but less clever) ending. It was first published in MAD
comics, Dec. 1953 - Jan. 1954, vol. 1, No. 8. Cartoons from MAD
comics were later published in pocket book form after Mad comic book
became MAD Magzine in 1955. This is around the same time that MAD
Magazine imitators sprang into existence. Thus, it seems likely to me
that one of the MAD imitators copied and improved MAD's story and that
is the story I remember while confusing it with MAD's story.

If you Google on

"mad magazine" +tonto "mean we"

you'll turn up at least two results saying that it appeared in Mad
magazine, with some details provided.

[aruzinsky]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by aruzinsky
I am uncertain about the time, but, it seems much more likely that the
cartoon was published while the Lone Ranger TV show was originally
broadcast 1949 to 1957. The MAD story, Lone Stranger Rides Again, had
a similar (but less clever) ending. It was first published in MAD
comics, Dec. 1953 - Jan. 1954, vol. 1, No. 8. Cartoons from MAD
comics were later published in pocket book form after Mad comic book
became MAD Magzine in 1955. This is around the same time that MAD
Magazine imitators sprang into existence. Thus, it seems likely to me
that one of the MAD imitators copied and improved MAD's story and that
is the story I remember while confusing it with MAD's story.

If you Google on
"mad magazine" +tonto "mean we"
you'll turn up at least two results saying that it appeared in Mad
magazine, with some details provided.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux

Thanks, but unless they identify the specific issue so it is
verifiable, I won't believe them. The MAD cartoon that I cited is
definitely not the one. See for yourself; here are the last five
panes of that cartoon, Loading Image...
. Even so, Pronto betrays the Lone Stranger.

[Oleg Lego]

Post by aruzinsky
Well, that explains why the saying is popular, but, now, I am
disturbed that this Oscar Brown Jr. failed to give credit to where he
got the idea. I have a relatively good picture memory therefore I am
fairly certain that I saw the idea in a cartoon parody. I am not
going to quibble about "Kemo Sabe," "white man" or "paleface" because
my memory is much more faulty on verbal details.

Turns out your memory is pretty good, considering.

Post by aruzinsky
I am uncertain about the time, but, it seems much more likely that the
cartoon was published while the Lone Ranger TV show was originally
broadcast 1949 to 1957. The MAD story, Lone Stranger Rides Again, had
a similar (but less clever) ending. It was first published in MAD
comics, Dec. 1953 - Jan. 1954, vol. 1, No. 8. Cartoons from MAD
comics were later published in pocket book form after Mad comic book
became MAD Magzine in 1955. This is around the same time that MAD
Magazine imitators sprang into existence. Thus, it seems likely to me
that one of the MAD imitators copied and improved MAD's story and that
is the story I remember while confusing it with MAD's story.

Issue 38, March 1958, Page 42. _TV Scenes We'd Like to See_

It was a two panel cartoon strip, drawn by Joe Orlando.

1st panel. LR is saying "Indians! Indians all around us! Well Tonto,
ol' kimosavee, it looks like we're finished!

2nd Panel. Tonto says "What you mean... WE?"

If you've been looking for it on the _Totally MAD_ CD set, a search on
"Tonto" finds it. "Stranger" did not, because the two panel strip is
entitled "The Lone Ranger".

[aruzinsky]

Post by Oleg Lego
Issue 38, March 1958, Page 42. _TV Scenes We'd Like to See_
It was a two panel cartoon strip, drawn by Joe Orlando.
1st panel. LR is saying "Indians! Indians all around us! Well Tonto,
ol' kimosavee, it looks like we're finished!
2nd Panel. Tonto says "What you mean... WE?"

That really rings a bell!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

[Oleg Lego]

Post by aruzinsky

Post by Oleg Lego
Issue 38, March 1958, Page 42. _TV Scenes We'd Like to See_
It was a two panel cartoon strip, drawn by Joe Orlando.
1st panel. LR is saying "Indians! Indians all around us! Well Tonto,
ol' kimosavee, it looks like we're finished!
2nd Panel. Tonto says "What you mean... WE?"

That really rings a bell!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

You're welcome. Do you have the Totally MAD CDRom set?

[R H Draney]

Post by Oleg Lego

Post by aruzinsky

Post by Oleg Lego
Issue 38, March 1958, Page 42. _TV Scenes We'd Like to See_

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

You're welcome. Do you have the Totally MAD CDRom set?

I have...are you asking for someone to put a screen image of the cartoon on the
web and post a link to it here?...r

[Oleg Lego]

Post by R H Draney

Post by Oleg Lego

Post by aruzinsky

Post by Oleg Lego
Issue 38, March 1958, Page 42. _TV Scenes We'd Like to See_

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

You're welcome. Do you have the Totally MAD CDRom set?

I have...are you asking for someone to put a screen image of the cartoon on the
web and post a link to it here?...r

No, but I see aruzinsky has asked for one. I have it, but the best I
could do for now would be to post it in a binary group.

[Nick Spalding]

Post by Oleg Lego

Post by R H Draney

Post by Oleg Lego

Post by aruzinsky

Post by Oleg Lego
Issue 38, March 1958, Page 42. _TV Scenes We'd Like to See_

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

You're welcome. Do you have the Totally MAD CDRom set?

I have...are you asking for someone to put a screen image of the cartoon on the
web and post a link to it here?...r

No, but I see aruzinsky has asked for one. I have it, but the best I
could do for now would be to post it in a binary group.

How about <www.tinypic.com>?

[Donna Richoux]

R H Draney <***@spamcop.net> wrote:

[Re Tonto joke]

Post by R H Draney

Post by Oleg Lego

Post by aruzinsky

Post by Oleg Lego
Issue 38, March 1958, Page 42. _TV Scenes We'd Like to See_

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

You're welcome. Do you have the Totally MAD CDRom set?

I have...are you asking for someone to put a screen image of the cartoon
on the web and post a link to it here?...r

I'd like to see it. I have a dim recollection of having seen it already
(not likely in 1958, but perhaps reprinted) and I'd like to see if it
looks familiar. Surely it passes the Fair Use education & discussion
copyright test.

I've thought off and on it is our duty to collect and publish a sort of
gallery of cartoons, ads, etc, that have influenced language --
documenting the origins of particular words and catchphrases. Mike B.
has said he's willing to put such stuff on the website.

[Father Ignatius]

Post by Donna Richoux
I've thought off and on it is our duty to collect and
publish a sort of gallery of cartoons, ads, etc, that
have influenced language -- documenting the origins of
particular words and catchphrases. Mike B. has said he's
willing to put such stuff on the website.

Loading Image...

Loading Image...
(OnCrossThread: Note "1" for "I")

Loading Image...

Loading Image...

[Donna Richoux]

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Donna Richoux
I've thought off and on it is our duty to collect and
publish a sort of gallery of cartoons, ads, etc, that
have influenced language -- documenting the origins of
particular words and catchphrases. Mike B. has said he's
willing to put such stuff on the website.

http://www.fictionalcities.co.uk/Curates_egg.gif

That's the idea, yes. Glad to see you're leaping in; perhaps this is a
start. However, the caption/dialog is missing from that one. And did it
come with name and date of original publication? Punch, I imagine.

Post by Father Ignatius
http://www.punchcartoons.com/images/M/1937.07.21.62.1.jpg
(OnCrossThread: Note "1" for "I")

Not familiar to me.

Post by Father Ignatius
http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/images/essex/iffpoem.jpg

Is it the joke at the end? Does Kidderminster have any special
significance?

Post by Father Ignatius
http://www.cartoonbank.com/assets/1/22230_m.gif

That one I know. Again, I'd say the date is needed for historical
purposes.

I know I could track down three or four more such cartoons if I were to
look through my old files. How to distinguish between mere fond
remembrance and actual lasting significance might be tricky.

[Peter Duncanson]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Donna Richoux
I've thought off and on it is our duty to collect and
publish a sort of gallery of cartoons, ads, etc, that
have influenced language -- documenting the origins of
particular words and catchphrases. Mike B. has said he's
willing to put such stuff on the website.

http://www.fictionalcities.co.uk/Curates_egg.gif

That's the idea, yes. Glad to see you're leaping in; perhaps this is a
start. However, the caption/dialog is missing from that one. And did it
come with name and date of original publication? Punch, I imagine.

Post by Father Ignatius
http://www.punchcartoons.com/images/M/1937.07.21.62.1.jpg
(OnCrossThread: Note "1" for "I")

Not familiar to me.

Post by Father Ignatius
http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/images/essex/iffpoem.jpg

Is it the joke at the end? Does Kidderminster have any special
significance?

I don't know of any special significance today.

The image is of the poem as first published in 1915 in the
magazine Punch. The question "Will the war bring us to
Kidderminster?" sounds like a reference to something doing the
rounds at the time, perhaps a running joke in or outside Punch.

[Father Ignatius]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Donna Richoux
I've thought off and on it is our duty to collect and
publish a sort of gallery of cartoons, ads, etc, that
have influenced language -- documenting the origins of
particular words and catchphrases. Mike B. has said he's
willing to put such stuff on the website.

http://www.fictionalcities.co.uk/Curates_egg.gif

That's the idea, yes. Glad to see you're leaping in;
perhaps this is a start. However, the caption/dialog is
missing from that one. And did it come with name and date
of original publication? Punch, I imagine.

Yes, Punch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curate%27s_egg gives: "The
bishop says "I'm afraid you've got a bad egg, Mr Jones". The
curate replies, "Oh, no, my Lord, I assure you that parts of
it are excellent!"

While we are here, there are also the Punch cartoons "'Eave
'arf a brick at 'im" and "Bang went saxpence" the captions
of which have entered the language.

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Father Ignatius
http://www.punchcartoons.com/images/M/1937.07.21.62.1.jpg
(OnCrossThread: Note "1" for "I")

Not familiar to me.

This cartoon has been repeatedly voted [ObWikipedia/citation
needed/] Britain's all-time favourite (Onw onders what
America's is - "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog",
perhaps?), and the caption has entered (was always in?) the
language to the point where it was included amongst the
proposed mottoes for Britain recently discussed here and
elsewhere.

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Father Ignatius
http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/images/essex/iffpoem.jpg

Is it the joke at the end? Does Kidderminster have any
special significance?

No, the Kidderminster bit is irrelevant. The poem above was
the response to your post; it is the source of "Poppy Day"
(a/k/a Veterans' Day?) entering the language, and of using
the phrase "Flanders Fields" to mean the battles of WWI ("He
fell on Flanders Fields").

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by Father Ignatius
http://www.cartoonbank.com/assets/1/22230_m.gif

That one I know. Again, I'd say the date is needed for
historical purposes.

Published in /The New Yorker/ July 5, 1993. Artist: Peter
Steiner.

[Mike Lyle]

[...]http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/images/essex/iffpoem.jpg

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Donna Richoux
Is it the joke at the end? Does Kidderminster have any
special significance?

Heh! We're fighting them over here so you don't have to fight them over
there. And it'll all be over by Christmas. The first casualty is truth.
All remaining entrants in this cliché audition are requested to form an
orderly queue: thank you for your cooperation.

Post by Father Ignatius
No, the Kidderminster bit is irrelevant. The poem above was
the response to your post; it is the source of "Poppy Day"
(a/k/a Veterans' Day?) entering the language, and of using
the phrase "Flanders Fields" to mean the battles of WWI ("He
fell on Flanders Fields").

[...]

And it mentions that striking thing about the skylarks singing above the
guns: I'm racking my brains to remember whether I was told about that by
a veteran, or read it, or both.

[Donna Richoux]

Post by Father Ignatius
Yes, Punch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curate%27s_egg gives: "The
bishop says "I'm afraid you've got a bad egg, Mr Jones". The
curate replies, "Oh, no, my Lord, I assure you that parts of
it are excellent!"

I see that Wikipedia has a perfectly adequate article that provides the
"curate's egg" cartoon and discusses the meaning. It's shown at Phrase
Finder, too. As long as these people are adding graphics, I don't feel
it necessary for us to duplicate their work.

[John O'Flaherty]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2007 13:34:24 +0200, "Father Ignatius"

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Donna Richoux
I've thought off and on it is our duty to collect and
publish a sort of gallery of cartoons, ads, etc, that
have influenced language -- documenting the origins of
particular words and catchphrases. Mike B. has said he's
willing to put such stuff on the website.

http://www.fictionalcities.co.uk/Curates_egg.gif
http://www.punchcartoons.com/images/M/1937.07.21.62.1.jpg
(OnCrossThread: Note "1" for "I")

I think that's uneven printing or scanning.

Post by Father Ignatius
http://www.ww1battlefields.co.uk/flanders/images/essex/iffpoem.jpg
http://www.cartoonbank.com/assets/1/22230_m.gif

[R H Draney]

Post by Donna Richoux
[Re Tonto joke]

Post by R H Draney

Post by Oleg Lego

Post by aruzinsky

Post by Oleg Lego
Issue 38, March 1958, Page 42. _TV Scenes We'd Like to See_

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

You're welcome. Do you have the Totally MAD CDRom set?

I have...are you asking for someone to put a screen image of the cartoon
on the web and post a link to it here?...r

I'd like to see it. I have a dim recollection of having seen it already
(not likely in 1958, but perhaps reprinted) and I'd like to see if it
looks familiar. Surely it passes the Fair Use education & discussion
copyright test.
I've thought off and on it is our duty to collect and publish a sort of
gallery of cartoons, ads, etc, that have influenced language --
documenting the origins of particular words and catchphrases. Mike B.
has said he's willing to put such stuff on the website.

Fair enough...I put the "Lone Ranger" gag at
Loading Image...

If someone would rather see the whole page, or the entire two pages of the "TV
Scenes We'd Like to See" article, to put this gag in context, I could do that as
well...it's probably the cleverest of the lot; having Ed Sullivan admit that
tonight's show isn't very good and you should probably switch over to Steve
Allen is a little feeble by comparison....r

[aruzinsky]

Post by Oleg Lego

Post by aruzinsky

Post by Oleg Lego
Issue 38, March 1958, Page 42. _TV Scenes We'd Like to See_
It was a two panel cartoon strip, drawn by Joe Orlando.
1st panel. LR is saying "Indians! Indians all around us! Well Tonto,
ol' kimosavee, it looks like we're finished!
2nd Panel. Tonto says "What you mean... WE?"

That really rings a bell!
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!

You're welcome. Do you have the Totally MAD CDRom set?

No. I have reprints of all the MAD comic books and a few old issues
of MAD magazine. An image of the cartoon would be appreciated.

[John Holmes]

Post by aruzinsky
Well, that explains why the saying is popular, but, now, I am
disturbed that this Oscar Brown Jr. failed to give credit to where he
got the idea.

It circulated orally as a joke for many years. I recall hearing it in
the 60s, and Brown might have heard it similarly without being aware
that it came from a magazine.

[unknown]

On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:21:27 -0800 (PST), aruzinsky

Post by aruzinsky
I believe that I first saw that saying in a cartoon parody of the Lone
Ranger appearing in an imitator of Mad Magazine in the 1950s.
Originally, I thought it was Mad because they did indeed have a
cartoon parody of the Lone Ranger, but, after recently looking at a
reprint, apparently not. So, my memory was playing tricks and I now
suspect it must have been an imitator such as Cracked or Sick. The
story ends with the Lone Ranger and Tonto being surrounded by hostile
Indians. Lone Ranger says something like, "It looks like we are going
to die." and Tonto replies, 'What you mean, "we," Kemo Sabe?'

In the version of the joke I heard, sometime back in the mid-twentieth
c., the punchline was "What you mean 'we', paleface?'

A frequent reader of Mad, I don't remember seeing this particular
parody therein. But it does suit the gently iconoclastic approach of
that publication.

[Donna Richoux]

Post by unknown
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:21:27 -0800 (PST), aruzinsky

Post by aruzinsky
I believe that I first saw that saying in a cartoon parody of the Lone
Ranger appearing in an imitator of Mad Magazine in the 1950s.
Originally, I thought it was Mad because they did indeed have a
cartoon parody of the Lone Ranger, but, after recently looking at a
reprint, apparently not. So, my memory was playing tricks and I now
suspect it must have been an imitator such as Cracked or Sick. The
story ends with the Lone Ranger and Tonto being surrounded by hostile
Indians. Lone Ranger says something like, "It looks like we are going
to die." and Tonto replies, 'What you mean, "we," Kemo Sabe?'

In the version of the joke I heard, sometime back in the mid-twentieth
c., the punchline was "What you mean 'we', paleface?'

Searching on "we white man" at Google Books shows the joke turning up in
1970 and repeated thereafter. That fits in with my recollection of the
social attitudes of that era. "Paleface" makes sense but doesn't show up
there until the 1990s. "Kemo Sabe" turns up once, in 1986, but being an
admiring term, misses the racial point.

[Bob Cunningham]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[unknown]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by unknown
On Thu, 22 Nov 2007 09:21:27 -0800 (PST), aruzinsky

Post by aruzinsky
I believe that I first saw that saying in a cartoon parody of the Lone
Ranger appearing in an imitator of Mad Magazine in the 1950s.
Originally, I thought it was Mad because they did indeed have a
cartoon parody of the Lone Ranger, but, after recently looking at a
reprint, apparently not. So, my memory was playing tricks and I now
suspect it must have been an imitator such as Cracked or Sick. The
story ends with the Lone Ranger and Tonto being surrounded by hostile
Indians. Lone Ranger says something like, "It looks like we are going
to die." and Tonto replies, 'What you mean, "we," Kemo Sabe?'

In the version of the joke I heard, sometime back in the mid-twentieth
c., the punchline was "What you mean 'we', paleface?'

Searching on "we white man" at Google Books shows the joke turning up in
1970 and repeated thereafter. That fits in with my recollection of the
social attitudes of that era. "Paleface" makes sense but doesn't show up
there until the 1990s. "Kemo Sabe" turns up once, in 1986, but being an
admiring term, misses the racial point.

Hi Donna.

I have a distinct recollection of a particular person telling me that
joke, the "paleface" version, and it would have to have been in
Macomb, Illinois in 1963-64 because that's the last time I saw her. I
also remember that I'd already heard it, but can't say how long
before.

Can't remember what I had for dinner two nights ago, though,

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Donna Richoux
Searching on "we white man" at Google Books shows the joke turning up in
1970 and repeated thereafter. That fits in with my recollection of the
social attitudes of that era. "Paleface" makes sense but doesn't show up
there until the 1990s. "Kemo Sabe" turns up once, in 1986, but being an
admiring term, misses the racial point.

That fits with my recollection of the 1970s.

White people in South Africa often used "we" to mean "we whites", and the joke
was sometimes alluded to in the response "What do you mean 'we', white man."

Now the boot is on the other foot. Callers to radio talk shows often talk of
"our people", meaning black people.

[unknown]

On Fri, 23 Nov 2007 05:27:57 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Donna Richoux
Searching on "we white man" at Google Books shows the joke turning up in
1970 and repeated thereafter. That fits in with my recollection of the
social attitudes of that era. "Paleface" makes sense but doesn't show up
there until the 1990s. "Kemo Sabe" turns up once, in 1986, but being an
admiring term, misses the racial point.

That fits with my recollection of the 1970s.
White people in South Africa often used "we" to mean "we whites", and the joke
was sometimes alluded to in the response "What do you mean 'we', white man."
Now the boot is on the other foot. Callers to radio talk shows often talk of
"our people", meaning black people.

Same in Australia. Aboriginals are allowed to say it. When said by
people of northern European descent, it's racism.

To me, it's a scam no matter who says it.

[unknown]

Post by Donna Richoux
Searching on "we white man" at Google Books shows the joke turning up in
1970 and repeated thereafter. That fits in with my recollection of the
social attitudes of that era. "Paleface" makes sense but doesn't show up
there until the 1990s. "Kemo Sabe" turns up once, in 1986, but being an
admiring term, misses the racial point.

The poet Oscar Brown Jr wrote and recorded a song around the
"Paleface" version in 1974. Lyrics are here

http://www.top40db.net/Find/Songs.asp?By=Title&ID=19104&Match=The+Lone+Ranger