"he year of Living Danishly" Helen Russel

Post by Janet
Bertil recommended this book yesterday, thankyou.

If I go to Sweden, I'll be fine with being Bertil, because that is the
common form in Sweden. In Denmark my name is Bertel. The error bothers
me a little bit because when I was a boy many people thought that Bertil
was my name, and when I explained that it was Bertel, they wrote
Berthel.

There are Danes that are named Bertil.

Post by Janet
Such are the wonders of Amazon, it arrived in this
morning's post.
(cost £2, brand new and postage free).

I'll look forward to hearing what you think about the book.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Hibou

2024-10-25 13:59:41 UTC

Post by Janet
Bertil recommended this book yesterday, thankyou.

Post by Janet
Such are the wonders of Amazon, it arrived in this
morning's post.
(cost £2, brand new and postage free).

I'll look forward to hearing what you think about the book.

Interesting so far (e-book free from our municipal library), though the
style is somewhat breathless, as one might expect from a journalist used
to writing shorter pieces. I fear this may become wearing over several
hundred pages. Early days. We'll see.

Also finishing 'The Chequer Board' by Shute (1947), which is more
absorbing than I remember it. Many episodes are gripping. A man
suffering from shrapnel "going wrong in his napper" tries to find out
what happened to other servicemen treated in the same hospital. The
tenor of the book is strongly anti-racist, and to this end it's
liberally peppered with the word 'nigger'. If this would give you the
vapours, better to avoid it. Otherwise, recommended.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-10-25 14:23:12 UTC

Post by Janet
Bertil recommended this book yesterday, thankyou.

Post by Janet
Such are the wonders of Amazon, it arrived in this
morning's post.
(cost £2, brand new and postage free).

I'll look forward to hearing what you think about the book.

Interesting so far (e-book free from our municipal library), though the
style is somewhat breathless, as one might expect from a journalist
used to writing shorter pieces. I fear this may become wearing over
several hundred pages. Early days. We'll see.
Also finishing 'The Chequer Board' by Shute (1947), which is more
absorbing than I remember it. Many episodes are gripping. A man
suffering from shrapnel "going wrong in his napper" tries to find out
what happened to other servicemen treated in the same hospital. The
tenor of the book is strongly anti-racist, and to this end it's
liberally peppered with the word 'nigger'. If this would give you the
vapours, better to avoid it. Otherwise, recommended.

I thought I had read that until I looked at the synopsis at Wikipedia,
but probably not. I was very fond of Nevil Shute as a lad, who went to
the same school as I did, and it was only much later that I realized
how right-wing he was (he moved to Australia to escape the horrors of
the socialism under Clement Attlee).

I think in those days "nigger" was almost an everyday word in the UK,
though not primarily used as an insult. Times have changed, however.
Some years ago I was talking with a Chilean woman that I knew, who had
lived many yers in Quito. Her English was excellent and virtually
accentless, and I was quite taken aback when we were talking about
Esmeraldas, the most northerly part of Ecuador, when she said that that
it was full of niggers.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Hibou

2024-10-25 19:00:59 UTC

Post by Hibou
Also finishing 'The Chequer Board' by Shute (1947), which is more
absorbing than I remember it. Many episodes are gripping. A man
suffering from shrapnel "going wrong in his napper" tries to find out
what happened to other servicemen treated in the same hospital. The
tenor of the book is strongly anti-racist, and to this end it's
liberally peppered with the word 'nigger'. If this would give you the
vapours, better to avoid it. Otherwise, recommended.

I'm afraid I don't know anything about his politics. The anti-racism
here could be seen as left-leaning, I suppose, but I remember he talked
about professional people qualifying for a double vote in one of his
Australian novels, which could be a right-wing view.

I enjoy Shute's stories, especially the Australian ones (memo to self -
must reread 'A Town Like Alice'), and I tend to think that once a book
is written, it takes on a life of its own. Is this a cheat? Perhaps. It
allows me to enjoy Jeeves and Wooster without worrying about their
creator's flirtation with the Nazis - and Sherlock Holmes, the ultimate
man of reason, even though his author became so superstitious. For many
books, I have no idea of the author's opinions. What did Wilkie Collins
believe? Don't ask me. Dumas père? There I have an inkling. I think it's
expressed in his novel 'Georges'.

I see Shute was born in 1899. I seem to get on well with authors born
about that time. It may be something to do with prose style. Orwell, for
instance, was born in 1903, and I've sometimes said that if you once let
your eye fall on a page of Orwell, you won't lift it till you've read at
least ten or twenty pages. (Well, I shan't anyway. His rhetoric helps,
of course. His everyman pose was a bit of a cheat, but very effective.)

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I think in those days "nigger" was almost an everyday word in the UK,
though not primarily used as an insult. Times have changed, however.
Some years ago I was talking with a Chilean woman that I knew, who had
lived many yers in Quito. Her English was excellent and virtually
accentless, and I was quite taken aback when we were talking about
Esmeraldas, the most northerly part of Ecuador, when she said that that
it was full of niggers.

That's my recollection of England, too. I think I'm a bit younger than
you, but as I recall the book was called 'Ten Little Niggers', as was
the children's rhyme, and there were sometimes 'niggers in the
woodpile'. We were in darkest Dorset, of course, where farmers were
tanned, but no-one was black.

Tony Cooper

2024-10-25 20:40:59 UTC

On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 20:00:59 +0100, Hibou

I'm afraid I don't know anything about his politics. The anti-racism
here could be seen as left-leaning, I suppose, but I remember he talked
about professional people qualifying for a double vote in one of his
Australian novels, which could be a right-wing view.
I enjoy Shute's stories, especially the Australian ones (memo to self -
must reread 'A Town Like Alice'), and I tend to think that once a book
is written, it takes on a life of its own. Is this a cheat? Perhaps. It
allows me to enjoy Jeeves and Wooster without worrying about their
creator's flirtation with the Nazis - and Sherlock Holmes, the ultimate
man of reason, even though his author became so superstitious. For many
books, I have no idea of the author's opinions. What did Wilkie Collins
believe? Don't ask me. Dumas père? There I have an inkling. I think it's
expressed in his novel 'Georges'.
I see Shute was born in 1899. I seem to get on well with authors born
about that time. It may be something to do with prose style. Orwell, for
instance, was born in 1903, and I've sometimes said that if you once let
your eye fall on a page of Orwell, you won't lift it till you've read at
least ten or twenty pages. (Well, I shan't anyway. His rhetoric helps,
of course. His everyman pose was a bit of a cheat, but very effective.)

Some might remember Wing Commander Guy Penrose Gibson's pet labrador
that was the mascot of No. 16 Squadron. Gibson led the "Dambusters"
raid and used the Morse code for the dog's name - "Nigger" - to
confirm the breach of the Möhne Dam.

Less known was the "explosive sniffer" dog "Nigger" that served with
the Royal Engineers' mine clearance unit in 1944.

Janet

2024-10-26 12:55:46 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
Some might remember Wing Commander Guy Penrose Gibson's pet labrador
that was the mascot of No. 16 Squadron. Gibson led the "Dambusters"
raid and used the Morse code for the dog's name - "Nigger" - to
confirm the breach of the Möhne Dam.

When I was young we had a black labrador who was also
called Nigger, much loved family pet and my Father's gun
dog. Father was born in 1889.

Janet

Chris Elvidge

2024-10-26 13:24:15 UTC

Post by Janet

When I was young we had a black labrador who was also
called Nigger, much loved family pet and my Father's gun
dog. Father was born in 1889.
Janet

Was your father Guy Gibson (Dambusters)?
If not, GG also had a dog called Nigger.

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT DO THAT THING WITH MY TONGUE

lar3ryca

2024-10-29 06:38:27 UTC

I'm afraid I don't know anything about his politics. The anti-racism
here could be seen as left-leaning, I suppose, but I remember he talked
about professional people qualifying for a double vote in one of his
Australian novels, which could be a right-wing view.
I enjoy Shute's stories, especially the Australian ones (memo to self -
must reread 'A Town Like Alice'), and I tend to think that once a book
is written, it takes on a life of its own. Is this a cheat? Perhaps. It
allows me to enjoy Jeeves and Wooster without worrying about their
creator's flirtation with the Nazis - and Sherlock Holmes, the ultimate
man of reason, even though his author became so superstitious. For many
books, I have no idea of the author's opinions. What did Wilkie Collins
believe? Don't ask me. Dumas père? There I have an inkling. I think it's
expressed in his novel 'Georges'.
I see Shute was born in 1899. I seem to get on well with authors born
about that time. It may be something to do with prose style. Orwell, for
instance, was born in 1903, and I've sometimes said that if you once let
your eye fall on a page of Orwell, you won't lift it till you've read at
least ten or twenty pages. (Well, I shan't anyway. His rhetoric helps,
of course. His everyman pose was a bit of a cheat, but very effective.)

WC Fields was always battling the censors by saying things that were not
quite enough to have it cut out of the film.

God Damn! became Godfrey Daniel!
and 'Nigger in the woodpile' became
"There appears to be an Ethiopian in the fuel supply."

--
What was the greatest thing before sliced bread?

lar3ryca

2024-10-29 06:43:04 UTC

The same in Denmark. People thought of the word as neutral, but that was
only because racism was so accepted. There is a popular and very good
Danish lullaby (an elephant mother singing to her baby elephant) that
tomorrow you'll get a niggerboy
[...] use as a rattle.
Today we sing "coconut" instead, spoiling the rhyme.

Another example is the children's 'choosing' rhyme, which has become:

Eenie meenie miney Moe.
Catch a tiger by the toe.

At least the rhyme survived.

--
The church is always trying to get other people to reform; it might not
be a bad idea to reform itself a little by way of example.
–Mark Twain

charles

2024-10-26 18:30:02 UTC

Post by Janet
Bertil recommended this book yesterday, thankyou.

Post by Janet
Such are the wonders of Amazon, it arrived in this
morning's post.
(cost £2, brand new and postage free).

I'll look forward to hearing what you think about the book.

Interesting so far (e-book free from our municipal library), though the
style is somewhat breathless, as one might expect from a journalist
used to writing shorter pieces. I fear this may become wearing over
several hundred pages. Early days. We'll see.
Also finishing 'The Chequer Board' by Shute (1947), which is more
absorbing than I remember it. Many episodes are gripping. A man
suffering from shrapnel "going wrong in his napper" tries to find out
what happened to other servicemen treated in the same hospital. The
tenor of the book is strongly anti-racist, and to this end it's
liberally peppered with the word 'nigger'. If this would give you the
vapours, better to avoid it. Otherwise, recommended.

and wrote: "In the Wet" about a future UK after 50 years of socialism

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I think in those days "nigger" was almost an everyday word in the UK,
though not primarily used as an insult.

Guy Gibson's black labrador was called "Nigger" a very affectionate term
for a black dog.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Times have changed, however.
Some years ago I was talking with a Chilean woman that I knew, who had
lived many yers in Quito. Her English was excellent and virtually
accentless, and I was quite taken aback when we were talking about
Esmeraldas, the most northerly part of Ecuador, when she said that that
it was full of niggers.
--

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Silvano

2024-10-25 22:00:53 UTC

Would you elaborate on this point?
My English is only third-class (first, my native Italian, second, German
after a university degree as an interpreter, 40 years in Germany, a
German wife and two children born and raised here) and I do understand
that some words were not used in 1947 as they are today (this happens in
Italian and German, too), but I need a lot of help to reconcile "nigger"
and "strongly anti-racist".

Can you help me?

LionelEdwards

2024-10-25 23:22:25 UTC

When I was a child in a fiercely Methodist upbringing
"nigger" was a common nursery-rhyme expression, and just
meant black = negro.

For the salutary lessons we were taught as children, you
should consult Heinrich Hoffman's masterpiece, which seems
to be here complete with its illustrations. Harriet catching
fire and burning to death is not suitable for adults:

"As he had often done before,
The woolly-headed Black-a-moor
One nice fine summer's day went out
To see the shops, and walk about;
And, as he found it hot, poor fellow,
He took with him his green umbrella,
Then Edward, little noisy wag,
Ran out and laughed, and waved his flag;
And William came in jacket trim,
And brought his wooden hoop with him;
And Arthur, too, snatched up his toys
And joined the other naughty boys.
So, one and all set up a roar,
And laughed and hooted more and more,
And kept on singing,—only think!—
"Oh, Blacky, you're as black as ink!"

<https://www.gutenberg.org/files/12116/12116-h/12116-h.htm>

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-26 08:12:35 UTC

Post by LionelEdwards
For the salutary lessons we were taught as children, you
should consult Heinrich Hoffman's masterpiece, which seems
to be here complete with its illustrations. Harriet catching

We had that in my home. My brother in law called it "The Horror
Cabinet".

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Hibou

2024-10-26 05:14:34 UTC

Various characters in the book manifest prejudice against black people
(also against the Burmese). The term used to describe them, most notably
by white American GIs, but by ordinary Britons too, is 'niggers'. As the
plot unfolds, this prejudice is shown to be wrong.

My feeling is that Shute paints the white characters a little too black,
and the black characters a little too white - but, hey, that's dramatic
licence.

Silvano

2024-10-26 08:44:57 UTC

Thank you. There is a stark quarrel among those who consider nigger a
word to be banned under all circumstances, those who still want to
pretend it's a normal word and those like me who think it appropriate in
fiction to show how racist some people are.

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-26 09:40:53 UTC

Post by Silvano
Thank you. There is a stark quarrel among those who consider nigger a
word to be banned under all circumstances, those who still want to
pretend it's a normal word and those like me who think it appropriate in
fiction to show how racist some people are.

I agree with the last part, but I think that it is okay to censor texts
for children. They may not understand that the word is there for
historical reasons.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Hibou

2024-10-27 06:05:48 UTC

I agree with the last part, but I think that it is okay to censor texts
for children. They may not understand that the word is there for
historical reasons.

For young children, perhaps. Generally, if we bowdlerise texts, if we
suppress words like 'nigger', if we rewrite the past so it looks like
the present, then how can we learn from it?

I remember being quite taken aback by Amis's 'Take a Girl Like You'
(1960). I don't know whether its portrayal of the mores of the time is
exaggerated or accurate (I was only wee). The would-be seducers'
relentlessly laying siege to the lassie's virtue makes uncomfortable
reading in the twenty-twenties. Therein lies the book's value, I think -
(though it'd be a better read if the seducers weren't so verbose and
boring).

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-10-27 07:07:35 UTC

I agree with the last part, but I think that it is okay to censor texts
for children. They may not understand that the word is there for
historical reasons.

For young children, perhaps. Generally, if we bowdlerise texts, if we
suppress words like 'nigger', if we rewrite the past so it looks like
the present, then how can we learn from it?
I remember being quite taken aback by Amis's 'Take a Girl Like You'
(1960). I don't know whether its portrayal of the mores of the time is
exaggerated or accurate (I was only wee). The would-be seducers'
relentlessly laying siege to the lassie's virtue makes uncomfortable
reading in the twenty-twenties. Therein lies the book's value, I think
- (though it'd be a better read if the seducers weren't so verbose and
boring).

By coincidence a few days ago I took that very book off the bookcase
where it had been sitting unread for half a century. I read a few pages
before deciding that I didn't want to read any more, for the sort of
reasons you suggest. I think that even in the 1960s I found it too
macho for my taste.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Janet

2024-10-27 16:19:48 UTC

So now I've read it... how accurate a picture is it, of
life in Denmark? Or to put it another way, Bertel, does
Helen's account bear any resemblance to your much deeper
life experience ?

Can people in Denmark really be so homogenous?

Janet

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-27 18:50:41 UTC

Post by Janet
So now I've read it... how accurate a picture is it, of
life in Denmark?

Fairly accurate - but there's not much trace of the newer Danes, and
Helen is clearly of the upper middleclass. You will find many homes with
designer furniture, but you certainly will find many without.

Personally I am lower middleclass, and the only designer furniture I
have, are PH-lamps in all rooms as the only light source, but they are
bought used so they haven't been expensive. I got them because they give
the best light.

Post by Janet
Or to put it another way, Bertel, does Helen's account bear any
resemblance to your much deeper life experience ?

I'll have to reread the book to answer that question, but there were
several things that I didn't recognise.

Post by Janet
Can people in Denmark really be so homogenous?

We were when I was a child, maybe even more so than described. But it
certainly has changed. We had six political parties at the time and if
you asked people what their job was, you generally knew which party they
belonged to.

Today we have 11 represented in Folketinget (not including Greenland and
Faroe Islands), and we have four outside Folketinget (too small to get
represented), including Schlesvigsk Parti - the Danish Germans. And
voters change party.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Silvano

2024-10-27 19:14:14 UTC

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Today we have 11 represented in Folketinget (not including Greenland and
Faroe Islands), and we have four outside Folketinget (too small to get
represented), including Schlesvigsk Parti - the Danish Germans. And
voters change party.

Interesting. This means that the agreements between Denmark and Germany
work only one way.
Linguistic question: is "that" in the sentence above necessary or not?

I mean: there is exactly one MP in the German Parliament from the
Südschleswigscher Wählerverband (SSW, South Schleswig Voters'
Association), the party of the German Danes, precisely because they are
(Wikipedia quote) "not subject to the general requirement of passing a
5% vote threshold to gain proportional seats in either the
(Schleswig-Holstein) state parliament (Landtag) or the federal German
parliament (Bundestag). In the most recent 2022 state election, the SSW
received 5.7% of the votes and four seats. In the 2021 federal
elections, the SSW stood in a federal election for the first time since
1961; the official final result gave them one seat."

I have nothing against it and he's really welcome, but I'm surprised
there's no reciprocal provision for the Danish Parliament.

P.S. My Danish is non-existent, but looking at the Danish name of the
SSW I would have expected Slesvigsk Parti.

jerryfriedman

2024-10-27 19:38:29 UTC

Interesting. This means that the agreements between Denmark and Germany
work only one way.
Linguistic question: is "that" in the sentence above necessary or not?

..

It's not.

(I can't comment on Danish or German politics.)

--
Jerry Friedman

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-28 09:40:43 UTC

Post by Silvano
Linguistic question: is "that" in the sentence above necessary or not?

To me it is, but you'll probably find someone who doesn't mind dropping
it.

Post by Silvano
I mean: there is exactly one MP in the German Parliament from the
Südschleswigscher Wählerverband (SSW, South Schleswig Voters'
Association), the party of the German Danes, precisely because they are
(Wikipedia quote) "not subject to the general requirement of passing a
5% vote threshold to gain proportional seats in either the
(Schleswig-Holstein) state parliament (Landtag) or the federal German
parliament (Bundestag). In the most recent 2022 state election, the SSW
received 5.7% of the votes and four seats. In the 2021 federal
elections, the SSW stood in a federal election for the first time since
1961; the official final result gave them one seat."
I have nothing against it and he's really welcome, but I'm surprised
there's no reciprocal provision for the Danish Parliament.

The explanation is complex. We have a limit of 4%, and it is true that
there is no exception for SP (Slevigsk Parti). But our candidates can be
elected in two ways: They can enter directly with enough personal votes,
or they can enter because a party has more votes after the 'personal'
seats have been taken. This way the party can be represented with fewer
votes than the 4%.

There also has been set up a committee and a secretariat for the German
minority as compensation. But I agree that it would be best to disable
the limit for SP, though it would be of no practical importance.

Post by Silvano
P.S. My Danish is non-existent, but looking at the Danish name of the
SSW I would have expected Slesvigsk Parti.

I wrote "Schleswig" for the german readers. You're spot on.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Adam Funk

2024-10-28 14:59:08 UTC

Post by Silvano
P.S. My Danish is non-existent, but looking at the Danish name of the
SSW I would have expected Slesvigsk Parti.

I wrote "Schleswig" for the german readers. You're spot on.

Only three people ever really understood it. One died, one went mad, &
the other forgot about it (& subsequently died).

--
It is the duty of the wealthy man to give employment to the
artisan. ---Hilaire Belloc

J. J. Lodder

2024-10-29 17:15:19 UTC

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Silvano
P.S. My Danish is non-existent, but looking at the Danish name of the
SSW I would have expected Slesvigsk Parti.

I wrote "Schleswig" for the german readers. You're spot on.

Only three people ever really understood it. One died, one went mad, &
the other forgot about it (& subsequently died).

Yet the answer is quite simple:
it is ten Prussian infantry and artillery divisions,

Jan

Sam Plusnet

2024-10-29 18:48:00 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Silvano
P.S. My Danish is non-existent, but looking at the Danish name of the
SSW I would have expected Slesvigsk Parti.

I wrote "Schleswig" for the german readers. You're spot on.

Only three people ever really understood it. One died, one went mad, &
the other forgot about it (& subsequently died).

it is ten Prussian infantry and artillery divisions,

And a pure-bred Holstein cow.

(apologies to Mr. Lehrer, if he should chance to drop in on aue)

--
Sam Plusnet

Anders D. Nygaard

2024-10-29 20:00:29 UTC

Post by Silvano
Linguistic question: is "that" in the sentence above necessary or not?

To me it is, but you'll probably find someone who doesn't mind dropping
it.

The explanation is complex. We have a limit of 4%,

2%.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
and it is true that
there is no exception for SP (Slevigsk Parti).

Yet they were represented by one seat (only) in several periods before
the mid-60's (they haven't run since 1977, according to WikiP)

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
But our candidates can be
elected in two ways: They can enter directly with enough personal votes,
or they can enter because a party has more votes after the 'personal'
seats have been taken. This way the party can be represented with fewer
votes than the 4%.

which is probably what happened.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
There also has been set up a committee and a secretariat for the German
minority as compensation. But I agree that it would be best to disable
the limit for SP, though it would be of no practical importance.

Post by Silvano
P.S. My Danish is non-existent, but looking at the Danish name of the
SSW I would have expected Slesvigsk Parti.

I wrote "Schleswig" for the german readers. You're spot on.

/Anders, Denmark

Hibou

2024-10-29 08:19:08 UTC

Post by Silvano
Interesting. This means that the agreements between Denmark and Germany
work only one way. [...]

I'm still enjoying the Danish idea of burning a witch in effigy in order
to persuade the others to decamp to Germany.

<https://www.cjoint.com/c/NJDiqavH7NA> (link valid 21 days)

Tony Cooper

2024-10-28 16:58:30 UTC

Post by Janet
So now I've read it... how accurate a picture is it, of
life in Denmark? Or to put it another way, Bertel, does
Helen's account bear any resemblance to your much deeper
life experience ?
Can people in Denmark really be so homogenous?
Janet

I recommended the book to my brother. He is an American who has lived
in Denmark since 1969. He moved there "temporarily" to gain some
experience in international business, but ended up staying there.

He said he'd check with the library to see if they have the book.

His wife is from Aarhus, which is where Bertel is from (I think).

LionelEdwards

2024-10-28 17:19:49 UTC

I recommended the book to my brother. He is an American who has lived
in Denmark since 1969. He moved there "temporarily" to gain some
experience in international business, but ended up staying there.
He said he'd check with the library to see if they have the book.
His wife is from Aarhus, which is where Bertel is from (I think).

Never mind your brother we haven't heard from your
sister for a long time?

Tony Cooper

2024-10-29 00:26:43 UTC

Post by LionelEdwards

I recommended the book to my brother. He is an American who has lived
in Denmark since 1969. He moved there "temporarily" to gain some
experience in international business, but ended up staying there.
He said he'd check with the library to see if they have the book.
His wife is from Aarhus, which is where Bertel is from (I think).

Never mind your brother we haven't heard from your
sister for a long time?

Sis has stopped commenting on AUE. In her last letter to me on the
subject she said that AUE has become dull and moribund, full of facts,
intelligence discourse, and polite interactions. She added "All you
have left is Hen Hanna's disjointed nonsense and some weenie who asks
the group to choose which is best version of three statements when
none of the three make any sense at all."

As I understand it, she's now fully engaged in following Donald J
Trump's rally speeches and amassing notes for an upcoming book
tentatively titled "Untangling the Weave".

LionelEdwards

2024-10-29 23:53:54 UTC

Post by LionelEdwards

I recommended the book to my brother. He is an American who has lived
in Denmark since 1969. He moved there "temporarily" to gain some
experience in international business, but ended up staying there.
He said he'd check with the library to see if they have the book.
His wife is from Aarhus, which is where Bertel is from (I think).

Never mind your brother we haven't heard from your
sister for a long time?

What I like about your Sis (and I would say the same about
Nina Conti's Monkey), is that they can say whatever they like
without anyone being able to be offended by it.

Nina Conti's masks I have never found funny until today...

Post by Tony Cooper
As I understand it, she's now fully engaged in following Donald J
Trump's rally speeches and amassing notes for an upcoming book
tentatively titled "Untangling the Weave".

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-28 18:23:35 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
His wife is from Aarhus, which is where Bertel is from (I think).

I was born in Aarhus, but that was coincidence. My parents visited my
uncle and aunt (both doctors) and then my mother began to give birth. We
lived 50 km from there.

I live there now (in a suburb).

I have moved a lot, but Odense is the town that I grew up in.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-29 18:53:06 UTC

Post by Janet
So now I've read it... how accurate a picture is it, of
life in Denmark?

I have now read some of it again, and now I know how to answer your
question.

Helen Russel's husband has a very well-paid job (I presume because it's
Lego), and Helen herself is also working. They have no financial
problems, and neither have the people she writes about. Billund is a
priviledged town because the Kirk family has paid for a lot of things -
the airport for one, and the tourists make sure that there is a steady
flow of money - most of which goes to the Kirk family, but still.

So Helen Russel sees a positive picture of Denmark. It's not a false one
- her description as such is correct - but I could list all the problems
and scandals that we have had to put up with (but I won't) which she
doesn't mention and maybe is not aware of. I don't think that Helen
Russel read any newspapers or watched the Danish news. If she had lived
in a large (for Denmark) city, she probably would have seen some of the
lesser charming sides of Danish life.

But if you didn't have money problems and went to Denmark, you could
have as positive an experience as Helen has had.

Post by Janet
Or to put it another way, Bertel, does Helen's account bear any
resemblance to your much deeper life experience ?

I have to admit that my life has been relatively easy, now I think of
it. My father's work brought a steady income sufficient to support our
family, so I have had a materially secure life. I have had all the
benefits of the Danish system with free school, free gymnasium, free
access to universities and (as I chose) a teacher's college - and not
only free: I got paid while I studied - not quite enough, but still.

These years I enjoy the benfits of a steady pension (one automatic and
one self-saved), I can go to my doctor and ophthalmologist without
paying, I have had two operations recently, both also free. So yes:
Denmark is a nice country to live in.

Post by Janet
Can people in Denmark really be so homogenous?

We pay our taxes with joy, and we trust each other. That is true. I can
describe the level of trust:

When my grandchildren were small, I would involve myself as a third
parent. When I picked them up from Kindergarten, they would often want
to have a friend come home with them. I would then look up the phone
number of a parent - the list with all numbers was available - I would
phone a parent that I had never met and present myself as X's
grandparent. I told the parent that we would like to take Y home with
us, and ask when the parent could pick Y up again. Next I told the
personnel that Y was coming with us, and that was it. The personnel knew
who I was, but apart form that there was no control.

In my lifetime there has been two occasions where a child has been
stolen while the pram was parked outside a shop or café (many years
ago). The whole country was in an uproar, and it took only a few days to
find the culprit and bring the child home. In both cases it was a
frustrated women who desperately wanted a child.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Hibou

2024-10-30 06:32:41 UTC

Post by Janet
Can people in Denmark really be so homogenous?

We pay our taxes with joy, and we trust each other. [...]

As you say, Helen Russell and her husband seem to have led a prosperous
and privileged life in Denmark (and the backdrop to their point of view
was the rat race they left behind in London), and it seems they didn't
read or watch the news. (The news is enough to make anyone grumpy, and
Denmark can't be insulated from world events such as Covid, Ukraine, the
Middle East, migrants and refugees, and rising sea levels).

Doesn't your home-grown TV series 'Borgen' paint a rather different
picture, of political struggle and conflict? Its characters seem only
intermittently happy (perhaps that's always true of those with the
political urge). Perhaps the volume is turned up a bit (without conflict
there is no drama), but how accurate is it? I assume the problems Nyborg
had to face are drawn from real life.

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-10-30 06:55:38 UTC

Post by Hibou
As you say, Helen Russell and her husband seem to have led a prosperous
and privileged life in Denmark (and the backdrop to their point of view
was the rat race they left behind in London), and it seems they didn't
read or watch the news. (The news is enough to make anyone grumpy, and
Denmark can't be insulated from world events such as Covid, Ukraine, the
Middle East, migrants and refugees, and rising sea levels).

I wasn't thinking about international news. I assume that Helen Russel
was well aware of those. I was thinking about the Danish news that would
paint a less charming picture of Denmark. Just one example:

Some months ago an environmental diaster was close to happening. A
company, "Nordic Waste", had taken on receiving polluted earth and
treating it so it could be disposed of with no risk. It turned out that
they did nothing except store the earth in a huge pile. When we had
heavy rain, the earth began to slide and threatened to end in a nearby
stream (very smal river).

The company had begun measures to prevent it, but when they realised how
expensive that was going to be, they abandoned the project, so the
"kommune" (small region) had to organise and pay for the clean up which
is still going on. The owner of the company is a Danish billionair who
could easily pick up the bill.

So much for equality and trust.

Post by Hibou
Doesn't your home-grown TV series 'Borgen' paint a rather different
picture, of political struggle and conflict? Its characters seem only
intermittently happy (perhaps that's always true of those with the
political urge). Perhaps the volume is turned up a bit (without conflict
there is no drama), but how accurate is it? I assume the problems Nyborg
had to face are drawn from real life.

I think that the series is very close to the true life. Some politicians
in real life have shown surprise at how precise the description is, and
for a while it was a standing joke at Christiansborg: "This is really
Borgen" when something went down.

I am not a political expert, but my impression as an interested citizen
is that Borgens describes everyday life, and the behaviour of the people
and the way they negotiate fits my picture of Danish politics.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Hibou

2024-10-30 08:23:25 UTC

I think that the series is very close to the true life. Some politicians
in real life have shown surprise at how precise the description is, and
for a while it was a standing joke at Christiansborg: "This is really
Borgen" when something went down.
I am not a political expert, but my impression as an interested citizen
is that Borgens describes everyday life, and the behaviour of the people
and the way they negotiate fits my picture of Danish politics.

OK, thanks.

Adam Funk

2024-10-28 15:00:20 UTC

I agree with the last part, but I think that it is okay to censor texts
for children. They may not understand that the word is there for
historical reasons.

For young children, perhaps. Generally, if we bowdlerise texts, if we
suppress words like 'nigger', if we rewrite the past so it looks like
the present, then how can we learn from it?

Mark Twain's work is a good example of that --- when his characters
use "nigger", they are the bad guys.

Post by Hibou
I remember being quite taken aback by Amis's 'Take a Girl Like You'
(1960). I don't know whether its portrayal of the mores of the time is
exaggerated or accurate (I was only wee). The would-be seducers'
relentlessly laying siege to the lassie's virtue makes uncomfortable
reading in the twenty-twenties. Therein lies the book's value, I think -
(though it'd be a better read if the seducers weren't so verbose and
boring).

--
I understand about indecision
But I don't care if I get behind
People living in competition
All I want is to have my peace of mind ---Boston

lar3ryca

2024-10-29 06:46:46 UTC

I also think it's OK to use when discussing the word itself.

--
I got tired of being accused of having no sense of direction,
so I packed up my things and right.

Hibou

2024-10-29 11:10:39 UTC

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou
Various characters in the book manifest prejudice against black people
(also against the Burmese). The term used to describe them, most notably
by white American GIs, but by ordinary Britons too, is 'niggers'. As the
plot unfolds, this prejudice is shown to be wrong.

I also think it's OK to use when discussing the word itself.

Yes. Like pathologists, we shouldn't shrink from putting disgusting
things on the dissecting table.

Janet

2024-10-26 14:33:54 UTC

Set within a period of immense social change, language is
used to illustrate racist and sexist attitudes of the
time. The book is about different social perceptions (of
culture, race, events) and how everyday language/
behaviour to others, plays a role shaping wider society.

Shute's the opposite of a racist.

Janet.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-10-26 15:46:23 UTC