"off by heart "origin

[retrosorter]

Can anyone enlighten me on the origin of the expression "off by heart"?

Thanks

[R J Valentine]

On 7 Mar 2006 12:05:23 -0800 retrosorter <***@sympatico.ca> wrote:

} Can anyone enlighten me on the origin of the expression "off by heart"?

As in, say, "rattle it off by heart"?

[retrosorter]

That''s the one.

[Donna Richoux]

Post by retrosorter
That''s the one.

You've divided it up wrong.

"To rattle off" is the verb, meaning "to recite quickly."

To do anything "by heart" means to do it from memory.

[Skitt]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by retrosorter
That''s the one.

You've divided it up wrong.
"To rattle off" is the verb, meaning "to recite quickly."
To do anything "by heart" means to do it from memory.

I can't really make out what the "off" is supposed to do, but it might be
something in BrE:
============
know/learn sth (off) by heart

if you know or learn something, especially a piece of writing, by heart, you
know or learn it so that you can remember it perfectly
He's my favourite poet. I know several of his poems by heart.

(from Cambridge International Dictionary of Idioms)
============

The examples are fine in AmE, but I still don't know how the "off" comes
into play.

[Wood Avens]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by retrosorter
That''s the one.

You've divided it up wrong.
"To rattle off" is the verb, meaning "to recite quickly."
To do anything "by heart" means to do it from memory.

Well, but here in the UK one can get, or learn, [something] "off by
heart", meaning memorise it word-perfect. An example from Google: "Or
am I the only person who knows their NI number off by heart?"

[Salvatore Volatile]

Post by Wood Avens

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by retrosorter
That''s the one.

You've divided it up wrong.
"To rattle off" is the verb, meaning "to recite quickly."
To do anything "by heart" means to do it from memory.

Well, but here in the UK one can get, or learn, [something] "off by
heart", meaning memorise it word-perfect. An example from Google: "Or
am I the only person who knows their NI number off by heart?"

Also Ron can "learn orf Orff by heart", meaning he can memorize one or
more works by a certain 20th century Bavarian composer.

[Ross Howard]

On Tue, 7 Mar 2006 22:59:17 +0000 (UTC), Salvatore Volatile

Post by Salvatore Volatile

Post by Wood Avens

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by retrosorter
That''s the one.

You've divided it up wrong.
"To rattle off" is the verb, meaning "to recite quickly."
To do anything "by heart" means to do it from memory.

Well, but here in the UK one can get, or learn, [something] "off by
heart", meaning memorise it word-perfect. An example from Google: "Or
am I the only person who knows their NI number off by heart?"

Also Ron can "learn orf Orff by heart", meaning he can memorize one or
more works by a certain 20th century Bavarian composer.

Nopety nope. He'd "learn Orff orf by heart". The"off" and "by" can't
be split by the object.

--
Ross Howard

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Wood Avens

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by retrosorter
That''s the one.

You've divided it up wrong.
"To rattle off" is the verb, meaning "to recite quickly."
To do anything "by heart" means to do it from memory.

Well, but here in the UK one can get, or learn, [something] "off by
heart", meaning memorise it word-perfect. An example from Google: "Or
am I the only person who knows their NI number off by heart?"

I too thought of "learn" and considered that "learn off" might be a
phrasal verb, but the use of "off" with "know" sort of contradicts that.
I know my 16 digit credit card number off by heart.

[Father Ignatius]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by retrosorter
That''s the one.

You've divided it up wrong.
"To rattle off" is the verb, meaning "to recite quickly."
To do anything "by heart" means to do it from memory.

Did not the OP ask for the origin rather than the meaning?

[Raymond S. Wise]

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by retrosorter
That''s the one.

You've divided it up wrong.
"To rattle off" is the verb, meaning "to recite quickly."
To do anything "by heart" means to do it from memory.

Did not the OP ask for the origin rather than the meaning?

I read in one of David Crystal's books that "by heart" was borrowed
from the French by translating literally the idiom "par coeur." That
doesn't explain how "par coeur" came to have that sense in the first
place, however. Nor does it explain how, for those who use it, "off"
got introduced into the English version.


--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

[CDB]

Post by Raymond S. Wise

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by retrosorter
That''s the one.

You've divided it up wrong.
"To rattle off" is the verb, meaning "to recite quickly."
To do anything "by heart" means to do it from memory.

Did not the OP ask for the origin rather than the meaning?

I read in one of David Crystal's books that "by heart" was borrowed
from the French by translating literally the idiom "par coeur." That
doesn't explain how "par coeur" came to have that sense in the first
place, however. Nor does it explain how, for those who use it, "off"
got introduced into the English version.

The "off" is attached to "rattle" (introduced into the discussion by
RJ), as Donna said above. It adds to the verb (which could also be
"gabble", "chant", "chatter", "lisp", or some other suitable variation
of "say") the notion of quickness and completeness. After a sound
beating, the orphan was able to whimper his lesson off by heart.

"By heart" in these expressions is surely transferred from an
originally more-restricted use with "learn" or "memorise". I have
heard that "par coeur" was originally "par choeur", i.e. "through
group repetition". Don't know if that's folk etymology, though. I
don't find much by way of confirmation in Google. There are about 60
French websites with the phrase "apprendre par choeur", but I find no
strong indication that that is the original form.

[Donna Richoux]

Post by CDB
"By heart" in these expressions is surely transferred from an
originally more-restricted use with "learn" or "memorise". I have
heard that "par coeur" was originally "par choeur", i.e. "through
group repetition". Don't know if that's folk etymology, though. I
don't find much by way of confirmation in Google. There are about 60
French websites with the phrase "apprendre par choeur", but I find no
strong indication that that is the original form.

The ARTFL historic French dictionaries site is a good place to go to
investigate this sort of thing.

Nicot, Thresor de la langue française (1606)

Par cueur, Memoriter, Ex memoria exponere.

Apprendre par cueur, Prosequi memoria, Aliquid
memoriae mandare, Ediscere.

Dire par cueur, Recitare, Pronuntiare, Reddere
aliquid sine scripto.

Tout par cueur, Memoriter memorare.

And by the next dictionary, the spelling was today's "coeur." After a
great many figures of speech involving "heart":

Dictionnaire de L'Académie française, 1st Edition (1694)

Coeur signifie aussi, Memoire & souvenir. Il gardoit
cela dans son coeur. j'ay gravé cela dans mon coeur.
j'ay cela bien avant dans le coeur. apprendre une
chose par coeur. sçavoir des vers, une oraison, &c.
par coeur. reciter par coeur.

So memorizing, learning something "by heart," knowing it, reciting it by
heart, was good French then.

"Choeur" does show up in the 1694 dictionary, definited as a troupe of
musicians or a group of people who sing during a play -- a chorus or
choir. None of the early dictionaries suggest that it is used to mean a
method of recitation or learning. The 1832 dictionary says "en choeur"
means singing together or repeating in chorus. That's a bit of overlap
that might have given rise to your observation? Students chanted bits in
chorus in order to learn them by heart.

(In Dutch, the expression is to learn the thing "out one's head.")

[CDB]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by CDB
"By heart" in these expressions is surely transferred from an
originally more-restricted use with "learn" or "memorise". I have
heard that "par coeur" was originally "par choeur", i.e. "through
group repetition". Don't know if that's folk etymology, though. I
don't find much by way of confirmation in Google. There are about 60
French websites with the phrase "apprendre par choeur", but I find no
strong indication that that is the original form.

The ARTFL historic French dictionaries site is a good place to go to
investigate this sort of thing.
Nicot, Thresor de la langue française (1606)
Par cueur, Memoriter, Ex memoria exponere.
Apprendre par cueur, Prosequi memoria, Aliquid
memoriae mandare, Ediscere.
Dire par cueur, Recitare, Pronuntiare, Reddere
aliquid sine scripto.
Tout par cueur, Memoriter memorare.
And by the next dictionary, the spelling was today's "coeur." After a
Dictionnaire de L'Académie française, 1st Edition (1694)
Coeur signifie aussi, Memoire & souvenir. Il gardoit
cela dans son coeur. j'ay gravé cela dans mon coeur.
j'ay cela bien avant dans le coeur. apprendre une
chose par coeur. sçavoir des vers, une oraison, &c.
par coeur. reciter par coeur.
So memorizing, learning something "by heart," knowing it, reciting it by
heart, was good French then.
"Choeur" does show up in the 1694 dictionary, definited as a troupe of
musicians or a group of people who sing during a play -- a chorus or
choir. None of the early dictionaries suggest that it is used to mean a
method of recitation or learning. The 1832 dictionary says "en
choeur"
means singing together or repeating in chorus. That's a bit of
overlap
that might have given rise to your observation? Students chanted bits in
chorus in order to learn them by heart.
(In Dutch, the expression is to learn the thing "out one's head.")

Highly convincing. Sixty googlehits doesn't (sic) amount to much,
anyway.

[retrosorter]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by CDB
"By heart" in these expressions is surely transferred from an
originally more-restricted use with "learn" or "memorise". I have
heard that "par coeur" was originally "par choeur", i.e. "through
group repetition". Don't know if that's folk etymology, though. I
don't find much by way of confirmation in Google. There are about 60
French websites with the phrase "apprendre par choeur", but I find no
strong indication that that is the original form.

The ARTFL historic French dictionaries site is a good place to go to
investigate this sort of thing.
Nicot, Thresor de la langue française (1606)
Par cueur, Memoriter, Ex memoria exponere.
Apprendre par cueur, Prosequi memoria, Aliquid
memoriae mandare, Ediscere.
Dire par cueur, Recitare, Pronuntiare, Reddere
aliquid sine scripto.
Tout par cueur, Memoriter memorare.
And by the next dictionary, the spelling was today's "coeur." After a
Dictionnaire de L'Académie française, 1st Edition (1694)
Coeur signifie aussi, Memoire & souvenir. Il gardoit
cela dans son coeur. j'ay gravé cela dans mon coeur.
j'ay cela bien avant dans le coeur. apprendre une
chose par coeur. sçavoir des vers, une oraison, &c.
par coeur. reciter par coeur.
So memorizing, learning something "by heart," knowing it, reciting it by
heart, was good French then.
"Choeur" does show up in the 1694 dictionary, definited as a troupe of
musicians or a group of people who sing during a play -- a chorus or
choir. None of the early dictionaries suggest that it is used to mean a
method of recitation or learning. The 1832 dictionary says "en choeur"
means singing together or repeating in chorus. That's a bit of overlap
that might have given rise to your observation? Students chanted bits in
chorus in order to learn them by heart.
(In Dutch, the expression is to learn the thing "out one's head.")
--
Best -- Donna Richoux

[Mike Lyle]

Raymond S. Wise wrote:
[...]

Post by Raymond S. Wise
I read in one of David Crystal's books that "by heart" was borrowed
from the French by translating literally the idiom "par coeur." That
doesn't explain how "par coeur" came to have that sense in the first
place, however. Nor does it explain how, for those who use it, "off"
got introduced into the English version.

I can't quite nail it down as the origin, but "by heart" suggests to me
"making something part of oneself", "internalising". Cf "second nature".
OED1 offers not even a conjecture.

The "off" needs to be distinguished into the one which attaches to a
verb, as in "rattle off", "parrot off", etc, and the one associated with
rote-learning. I think the learning "off" belongs with "have something
off", with or without "pat", as in "He has the details off [pat]." In
older English we find such expressions as "He's got X off", meaning "He
can imitate X perfectly."

Having made that distinction, I have a sense that in "learn off" the two
uses of "off" may be merged.

[R H Draney]

Post by Mike Lyle
The "off" needs to be distinguished into the one which attaches to a
verb, as in "rattle off", "parrot off", etc, and the one associated with
rote-learning. I think the learning "off" belongs with "have something
off", with or without "pat", as in "He has the details off [pat]." In
older English we find such expressions as "He's got X off", meaning "He
can imitate X perfectly."

ThisPondially, that's "down", as in "I got it down"...emphasis may be added by
appending "cold"....r

[Donna Richoux]

Post by Father Ignatius

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by retrosorter
That''s the one.

You've divided it up wrong.
"To rattle off" is the verb, meaning "to recite quickly."
To do anything "by heart" means to do it from memory.

Did not the OP ask for the origin rather than the meaning?

True, but I figured if I'm not sure if we even agree on the meaning or
that we're talking about the same expression, what good does it do to
discuss origins?

One step at a time.