French proverb : “A man who knows two languages is worth two men.” --- is this really a French proverb ?

There are traces of it in different forms, and it may be an African
proverb translated:

« Un homme qui parle une langue vaut un homme ; un homme qui parle deux
langues vaut deux hommes ; un homme qui en parle trois vaut toute
l'humanité. »

En passant, I found this:

« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui parle
deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une langue est
anglais » - Claude Gagnière.

occam

2024-06-04 06:45:12 UTC

On 04/06/2024 07:32, Hibou wrote:

<snip>

Post by Hibou
There are traces of it in different forms, and it may be an African
« Un homme qui parle une langue vaut un homme ; un homme qui parle deux
langues vaut deux hommes ; un homme qui en parle trois vaut toute
l'humanité. »
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui parle
deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une langue est
anglais » - Claude Gagnière.

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.

The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-06-04 08:40:12 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries, not
just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia. The only
major exception was Germany. To find bilingual people you had to look
in smaller countries: Portugal, Belgium (though most people there
pretend to be monolingual, unless one of their languages is English),
Denmark, Norway etc., and, most notably, The Netherlands. When I went
on a swimming tour of The Netherlands as a student I found after a week
that when asking for directions on the street, the resonse to the
question of whether the person spoke English was always yes. (One
exception: we encountered a Jehovah's Witness distributing the Dutch
editions of Awake! and Watchtower -- easily identifiable at 50 metres
-- who spoke only Dutch. We directed her to our captain, who knews
Afrikaans and could understand Dutch. He wasn't pleased.)

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

J. J. Lodder

2024-06-04 09:12:28 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries, not
just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia.

But the elites all over Europe learned French.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The only major exception was Germany. To find bilingual people you had to
look in smaller countries: Portugal, Belgium (though most people there
pretend to be monolingual, unless one of their languages is English),
Denmark, Norway etc., and, most notably, The Netherlands. When I went on a
swimming tour of The Netherlands as a student I found after a week that
when asking for directions on the street, the resonse to the question of
whether the person spoke English was always yes. (One exception: we
encountered a Jehovah's Witness distributing the Dutch editions of Awake!
and Watchtower -- easily identifiable at 50 metres -- who spoke only
Dutch. We directed her to our captain, who knews Afrikaans and could
understand Dutch. He wasn't pleased.)

In the olden days high school education in the Netherlands
had three obligatory foreign languages. (for five years)

That's why you always see Lorentz in front row, centre,
at those Solvay conferences. (next to Mme Curie)

He always had to be the chairman,
(but times have changed)

Jan

occam

2024-06-04 11:15:00 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries, not
just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia.

Things have changed because of globalisation, I agree. Most
professionals have to learn English irrespective of their mother tongue.
How far would a CNRS scientist go if he/she only published in French,
for example?

The Germans in the 1990s had instigated a management rule regarding the
top executives in their car industry. No one could rise up in the
organisation of say BMW, without a good command of English.

The subtler (and wider) criterion for me is films. The French dub
foreign films persistently in French. Ditto the Italians and Spanish.
The Dutch, the Belgians, the Danes and even the Brits go for the more
literate solution - subtitles.

Similarly I found that - as the only speaker of English in a gathering
of Danes - I could turn the conversation of the whole group into
English. The Dutch, not so much. (I concluded it was a question of
politeness as much as it was a question of knowledge of the language.)

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-06-04 13:15:34 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries, not
just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia.

Not far, today. 35 or so years ago I checked one or two journals such
Biochimica et Biophysica Acta and the European Journal of Biochemistry
that accepted articles in French or German. What was interesting to me
was that whereas in 1950 about 50% of the articles were in French or
German, but a few years later, say about 1955, German had largely
disappeared but there were still plenty of French papers. Nowadays both
of the journals I mentioned require English, and even Biochimie now
requires English.

On the other hand, when I was in Birmingham the departmental library
subscribed to the Egyptian Journal of Chemistry (for no very obvious
reason). Although I wasn't tempted to submit anything to it I glanced
in a moment of boredom at the Instructions to Authors: these said
papers could submitted in any language that used the Roman or Arabic
scripts.

Post by occam
The Germans in the 1990s had instigated a management rule regarding the
top executives in their car industry. No one could rise up in the
organisation of say BMW, without a good command of English.
The subtler (and wider) criterion for me is films. The French dub
foreign films persistently in French. Ditto the Italians and Spanish.
The Dutch, the Belgians, the Danes and even the Brits go for the more
literate solution - subtitles.

Once in Istanbul I went to a cinema to see a film (Pier 5 Havana) that
I thought would in English with Turkish subtitles. Alas no, it was
dubbed into Turkish. It seemed to consist entirely of men shooting at
one another, occasionally slapping one another on the face, and running
away along the pier.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Peter Moylan

2024-06-05 00:25:27 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not far, today. 35 or so years ago I checked one or two journals such
Biochimica et Biophysica Acta and the European Journal of
Biochemistry that accepted articles in French or German. What was
interesting to me was that whereas in 1950 about 50% of the articles
were in French or German, but a few years later, say about 1955,
German had largely disappeared but there were still plenty of French
papers. Nowadays both of the journals I mentioned require English,
and even Biochimie now requires English.
On the other hand, when I was in Birmingham the departmental library
subscribed to the Egyptian Journal of Chemistry (for no very obvious
reason). Although I wasn't tempted to submit anything to it I
glanced in a moment of boredom at the Instructions to Authors: these
said papers could submitted in any language that used the Roman or
Arabic scripts.

One of the most famous papers in control and system theory is

R. E. Kalman, Contributions to the theory of optimal control, Bol. Soc.
Mat. Mexicana (2), 5 (1960), 102–119

The author is American, the paper is in English, and the Mexican journal
is almost totally unknown -- to the point where the only way to find a
copy of the paper was to have a friend who could mail you a photocopy of
a photocopy.

Why did Kalman choose to publish in Mexico, on just this one occasion?
This has never been explained, but I suspect that the ideas in the paper
were considered too radical to be accepted by any prestigious
English-language journal.

(Those ideas are no longer considered radical, but staidly conventional.)

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Adam Funk

2024-06-05 10:08:32 UTC

Post by occam
Things have changed because of globalisation, I agree. Most
professionals have to learn English irrespective of their mother tongue.
How far would a CNRS scientist go if he/she only published in French,
for example?

Not far, today. 35 or so years ago I checked one or two journals such
Biochimica et Biophysica Acta and the European Journal of Biochemistry
that accepted articles in French or German. What was interesting to me
was that whereas in 1950 about 50% of the articles were in French or
German, but a few years later, say about 1955, German had largely
disappeared but there were still plenty of French papers. Nowadays both
of the journals I mentioned require English, and even Biochimie now
requires English.
On the other hand, when I was in Birmingham the departmental library
subscribed to the Egyptian Journal of Chemistry (for no very obvious
reason). Although I wasn't tempted to submit anything to it I glanced
in a moment of boredom at the Instructions to Authors: these said
papers could submitted in any language that used the Roman or Arabic
scripts.

"Anything we can typeset without buying more fonts"?

--
There are some things that are not sayable. That's why
we have art. ---Leonora Carrington

J. J. Lodder

2024-06-04 19:49:07 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries, not
just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia.

Things have changed because of globalisation, I agree. Most
professionals have to learn English irrespective of their mother tongue.
How far would a CNRS scientist go if he/she only published in French,
for example?
The Germans in the 1990s had instigated a management rule regarding the
top executives in their car industry. No one could rise up in the
organisation of say BMW, without a good command of English.
The subtler (and wider) criterion for me is films. The French dub
foreign films persistently in French. Ditto the Italians and Spanish.
The Dutch, the Belgians, the Danes and even the Brits go for the more
literate solution - subtitles.

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war
by subtitling a Flemish TV series.
The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling Dutch ones.

As you may know, the Dutch don't really speak Dutch,
only Belgians can do that.
The Dutch speak some kind of dialect,

Jan

occam

2024-06-05 10:36:47 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries, not
just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia.

Things have changed because of globalisation, I agree. Most
professionals have to learn English irrespective of their mother tongue.
How far would a CNRS scientist go if he/she only published in French,
for example?
The Germans in the 1990s had instigated a management rule regarding the
top executives in their car industry. No one could rise up in the
organisation of say BMW, without a good command of English.
The subtler (and wider) criterion for me is films. The French dub
foreign films persistently in French. Ditto the Italians and Spanish.
The Dutch, the Belgians, the Danes and even the Brits go for the more
literate solution - subtitles.

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war
by subtitling a Flemish TV series.
The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling Dutch ones.

That's funny. I think the southerners in England should do so with
Scottish characters in TV series.

Post by J. J. Lodder
As you may know, the Dutch don't really speak Dutch,
only Belgians can do that.

I didn't know that. But I do know that they sound different when they do
so. :-)

Post by J. J. Lodder
The Dutch speak some kind of dialect,
Jan

Adam Funk

2024-06-05 11:08:28 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries, not
just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia.

Things have changed because of globalisation, I agree. Most
professionals have to learn English irrespective of their mother tongue.
How far would a CNRS scientist go if he/she only published in French,
for example?
The Germans in the 1990s had instigated a management rule regarding the
top executives in their car industry. No one could rise up in the
organisation of say BMW, without a good command of English.
The subtler (and wider) criterion for me is films. The French dub
foreign films persistently in French. Ditto the Italians and Spanish.
The Dutch, the Belgians, the Danes and even the Brits go for the more
literate solution - subtitles.

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war
by subtitling a Flemish TV series.
The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling Dutch ones.

That's funny. I think the southerners in England should do so with
Scottish characters in TV series.

ISTR hearing that "Rab C Nesbitt" (which I've never watched) is
sometimes shown with subtitles.

--
skating away
on the thin ice of the new day

charles

2024-06-05 14:15:09 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

Post by Hibou
There are traces of it in different forms, and it may be an
« Un homme qui parle une langue vaut un homme ; un homme qui parle
deux langues vaut deux hommes ; un homme qui en parle trois vaut
toute l'humanité. »
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui
parle deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une
langue est anglais » - Claude Gagnière.

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries,
not just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia.

Things have changed because of globalisation, I agree. Most
professionals have to learn English irrespective of their mother
tongue. How far would a CNRS scientist go if he/she only published in
French, for example?
The Germans in the 1990s had instigated a management rule regarding
the top executives in their car industry. No one could rise up in the
organisation of say BMW, without a good command of English.
The subtler (and wider) criterion for me is films. The French dub
foreign films persistently in French. Ditto the Italians and Spanish.
The Dutch, the Belgians, the Danes and even the Brits go for the more
literate solution - subtitles.

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by subtitling a
Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling
Dutch ones.

That's funny. I think the southerners in England should do so with
Scottish characters in TV series.

ISTR hearing that "Rab C Nesbitt" (which I've never watched) is sometimes
shown with subtitles.

Stanley Baxter's "Parliamo Glasgie" had subtitles

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Adam Funk

2024-06-06 08:56:59 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries,
not just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia.

Things have changed because of globalisation, I agree. Most
professionals have to learn English irrespective of their mother
tongue. How far would a CNRS scientist go if he/she only published in
French, for example?
The Germans in the 1990s had instigated a management rule regarding
the top executives in their car industry. No one could rise up in the
organisation of say BMW, without a good command of English.
The subtler (and wider) criterion for me is films. The French dub
foreign films persistently in French. Ditto the Italians and Spanish.
The Dutch, the Belgians, the Danes and even the Brits go for the more
literate solution - subtitles.

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by subtitling a
Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling
Dutch ones.

That's funny. I think the southerners in England should do so with
Scottish characters in TV series.

ISTR hearing that "Rab C Nesbitt" (which I've never watched) is sometimes
shown with subtitles.

Stanley Baxter's "Parliamo Glasgie" had subtitles

I haven't seen that either but I've heard of it. AIUI, the subtitles
were part of the joke?

--
By those who see with their eyes closed
You know me by my black telescope

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-06-05 17:10:15 UTC

Post by Adam Funk

Post by occam
<snip>

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries, not
just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia.

Things have changed because of globalisation, I agree. Most
professionals have to learn English irrespective of their mother tongue.
How far would a CNRS scientist go if he/she only published in French,
for example?
The Germans in the 1990s had instigated a management rule regarding the
top executives in their car industry. No one could rise up in the
organisation of say BMW, without a good command of English.
The subtler (and wider) criterion for me is films. The French dub
foreign films persistently in French. Ditto the Italians and Spanish.
The Dutch, the Belgians, the Danes and even the Brits go for the more
literate solution - subtitles.

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war
by subtitling a Flemish TV series.
The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling Dutch ones.

That's funny. I think the southerners in England should do so with
Scottish characters in TV series.

ISTR hearing that "Rab C Nesbitt" (which I've never watched) is
sometimes shown with subtitles.

When we used to watch Taggart everyone spoke an accent-free French so
it was easy to follow. However, a Britih colleague told me he had
watched it a hotel room in Nice, and that it was much easier to
understand than what he was used to.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Adam Funk

2024-06-06 09:14:51 UTC

Post by Adam Funk

Post by occam
<snip>

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries, not
just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia.

Things have changed because of globalisation, I agree. Most
professionals have to learn English irrespective of their mother tongue.
How far would a CNRS scientist go if he/she only published in French,
for example?
The Germans in the 1990s had instigated a management rule regarding the
top executives in their car industry. No one could rise up in the
organisation of say BMW, without a good command of English.
The subtler (and wider) criterion for me is films. The French dub
foreign films persistently in French. Ditto the Italians and Spanish.
The Dutch, the Belgians, the Danes and even the Brits go for the more
literate solution - subtitles.

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war
by subtitling a Flemish TV series.
The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling Dutch ones.

That's funny. I think the southerners in England should do so with
Scottish characters in TV series.

ISTR hearing that "Rab C Nesbitt" (which I've never watched) is
sometimes shown with subtitles.

I can believe that.

--
SHALL WE PLAY A GAME?

J. J. Lodder

2024-06-05 11:55:15 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries, not
just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia.

Things have changed because of globalisation, I agree. Most
professionals have to learn English irrespective of their mother tongue.
How far would a CNRS scientist go if he/she only published in French,
for example?
The Germans in the 1990s had instigated a management rule regarding the
top executives in their car industry. No one could rise up in the
organisation of say BMW, without a good command of English.
The subtler (and wider) criterion for me is films. The French dub
foreign films persistently in French. Ditto the Italians and Spanish.
The Dutch, the Belgians, the Danes and even the Brits go for the more
literate solution - subtitles.

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war
by subtitling a Flemish TV series.
The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling Dutch ones.

That's funny. I think the southerners in England should do so with
Scottish characters in TV series.

They certainly do that sometimes in interviews with the rustics,
when far out of London.

Post by J. J. Lodder
As you may know, the Dutch don't really speak Dutch,
only Belgians can do that.

I didn't know that. But I do know that they sound different when they do
so. :-)

There is a history to that, dating to the 'Taalstrijd'.
One of the Francophone arguments was:
We speak French, which is an international standard world language.
You on the other hand speak several kinds of Flemish,
which are nothing but some 'patois'.
NO!, the Flemish would retort, we don't speak just some patois,
we speak Dutch, which is another international world language,
a bit smaller, but still. (Dutch is the 4th language in the EU)

So some Flemish could become quite annoyed
when some native speaker of Dutch told them
that what they were speaking really wasn't quite standard Dutch,

Jan

Post by J. J. Lodder
The Dutch speak some kind of dialect,
Jan

charles

2024-06-05 13:15:03 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

Post by Hibou
There are traces of it in different forms, and it may be an African
« Un homme qui parle une langue vaut un homme ; un homme qui parle
deux langues vaut deux hommes ; un homme qui en parle trois vaut
toute l'humanité. »
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui
parle deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une
langue est anglais » - Claude Gagnière.

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Things have changed over the past 30 years, but in the olden days
monolingualism was characteristic of all large European countries,
not just France and Britain, but also Spain, Italy and Russia.

Things have changed because of globalisation, I agree. Most
professionals have to learn English irrespective of their mother
tongue. How far would a CNRS scientist go if he/she only published in
French, for example?
The Germans in the 1990s had instigated a management rule regarding
the top executives in their car industry. No one could rise up in the
organisation of say BMW, without a good command of English.
The subtler (and wider) criterion for me is films. The French dub
foreign films persistently in French. Ditto the Italians and Spanish.
The Dutch, the Belgians, the Danes and even the Brits go for the more
literate solution - subtitles.

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by subtitling a
Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling
Dutch ones.

That's funny. I think the southerners in England should do so with
Scottish characters in TV series.

When our children were small, there was a Chidren's TV series made in
Scotland which I had to translate for them!"

As you may know, the Dutch don't really speak Dutch, only Belgians can
do that.

I didn't know that. But I do know that they sound different when they do
so. :-)

The Dutch speak some kind of dialect,
Jan

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Anders D. Nygaard

2024-06-05 11:18:13 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder
Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war
by subtitling a Flemish TV series.
The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling Dutch ones.

Retaliate? Did it use to be customary to exclude Walloons?

/Anders, Denmark

Peter Moylan

2024-06-05 11:59:17 UTC

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by subtitling a
Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling
Dutch ones.

Retaliate? Did it use to be customary to exclude Walloons?

I once went to a movie in Brussels that was subtitled in about six
languages. A good idea, but it took a lot of screen space.

At roughly the same time I saw another that was subtitled in French. My
French wasn't brilliant at that time, so I had to work hard at reading
the subtitles. I got about halfway through the film before I realised
that the spoken dialogue was in English.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

charles

2024-06-05 14:15:08 UTC

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by subtitling a
Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling
Dutch ones.

Retaliate? Did it use to be customary to exclude Walloons?

I once went to a movie in Brussels that was subtitled in about six
languages. A good idea, but it took a lot of screen space.
At roughly the same time I saw another that was subtitled in French. My
French wasn't brilliant at that time, so I had to work hard at reading
the subtitles. I got about halfway through the film before I realised
that the spoken dialogue was in English.

I saw a Hollywood Film in Geneva many years ago which had subtitles in
French and German. I remember the line "Whisky and Soda" being "Whisky &
Soda" in one language and "Scotch & Soda" in the other.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Rich Ulrich

2024-06-05 18:35:14 UTC

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by subtitling a
Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling
Dutch ones.

Retaliate? Did it use to be customary to exclude Walloons?

I once went to a movie in Brussels that was subtitled in about six
languages. A good idea, but it took a lot of screen space.
At roughly the same time I saw another that was subtitled in French. My
French wasn't brilliant at that time, so I had to work hard at reading
the subtitles. I got about halfway through the film before I realised
that the spoken dialogue was in English.

I saw a Hollywood Film in Geneva many years ago which had subtitles in
French and German. I remember the line "Whisky and Soda" being "Whisky &
Soda" in one language and "Scotch & Soda" in the other.

I watched a Swedish movie many years ago and happened to catch
that the English word 'sexy' used by a character was translated
as 'attractive'.

I probably still have the anime DVD that I watched years ago
which provided both dubbing in English and English subtitles. They
apparently were produced independently. The plot made better
sense for the version that used 'prostitute' in reference to the
young woman.

--
Rich Ulrich

Silvano

2024-06-06 06:01:09 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
I probably still have the anime DVD that I watched years ago
which provided both dubbing in English and English subtitles. They
apparently were produced independently. The plot made better
sense for the version that used 'prostitute' in reference to the
young woman.

Please note that dubbing and subtitling are two different activities
with very different requirements and therefore, obviously, different
results.

Dubbing constraints: the spoken English text can't be much shorter or
(even worse) much longer than the spoken original. In really good
dubbing the mouth movements of the speakers must look as similar as
possible to those of the actors. And, of course, an old man like most
AUE readers is probably not an appropriate choice to dub a child or a
young woman.

Subtitling constraints: what's said in a frame must be compressed in a
few characters, so that people have enough time to read and understand
the subtitles before the action moves on to the next picture. In my few
assignments it was 2 lines of max. 40 characters each per frame, spaces
between words and punctuation marks included.

Rich Ulrich

2024-06-06 17:49:18 UTC

On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 08:01:09 +0200, Silvano

Matching lip movements should be less of a problem when the film
does not have people, but is the 'stark colorful graphics' of anime.

And, of course, an old man like most

Post by Silvano
AUE readers is probably not an appropriate choice to dub a child or a
young woman.
Subtitling constraints: what's said in a frame must be compressed in a
few characters, so that people have enough time to read and understand
the subtitles before the action moves on to the next picture. In my few
assignments it was 2 lines of max. 40 characters each per frame, spaces
between words and punctuation marks included.

Interesting.

--
Rich Ulrich

Silvano

2024-06-06 20:09:05 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
Matching lip movements should be less of a problem when the film
does not have people, but is the 'stark colorful graphics' of anime.

Right.

Post by Rich Ulrich
And, of course, an old man like most

Interesting.

Why? It should be obvious that viewers must be able to read the
subtitles before they fade away.
Of course we could discuss why 37 or 44 characters would not be OK, but
the concept shoud be clear.

Rich Ulrich

2024-06-06 23:33:21 UTC

On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 22:09:05 +0200, Silvano

Post by Rich Ulrich
Matching lip movements should be less of a problem when the film
does not have people, but is the 'stark colorful graphics' of anime.

Right.

Post by Rich Ulrich
And, of course, an old man like most

Interesting.

Why? It should be obvious that viewers must be able to read the
subtitles before they fade away.
Of course we could discuss why 37 or 44 characters would not be OK, but
the concept shoud be clear.

I suppose I found it interesting that we have someone here
who has experience with subtitling. So, I have a question.

Some years back, I bought a foreign DVD that said on the
jacket that it had "yellow subtitles" in English. It did, indeed.
Unlike most DVD subtitles, these were THERE, not dismissable.

The question has remained in my mind ever since then -- was
"yellow subtitles" ever a code that indicated permanent subtitles?
A quick Google does not give me any hint of that. Mainly, there
are comments on why yellow is better than white, and people
showing how to use yellow in your own videos.

--
Rich Ulrich

Silvano

2024-06-07 06:41:59 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 22:09:05 +0200, Silvano

Post by Rich Ulrich
Matching lip movements should be less of a problem when the film
does not have people, but is the 'stark colorful graphics' of anime.

Right.

Post by Rich Ulrich
And, of course, an old man like most

Interesting.

Why? It should be obvious that viewers must be able to read the
subtitles before they fade away.
Of course we could discuss why 37 or 44 characters would not be OK, but
the concept shoud be clear.

I suppose I found it interesting that we have someone here
who has experience with subtitling. So, I have a question.
Some years back, I bought a foreign DVD that said on the
jacket that it had "yellow subtitles" in English. It did, indeed.
Unlike most DVD subtitles, these were THERE, not dismissable.
The question has remained in my mind ever since then -- was
"yellow subtitles" ever a code that indicated permanent subtitles?
A quick Google does not give me any hint of that. Mainly, there
are comments on why yellow is better than white, and people
showing how to use yellow in your own videos.

Sorry, I never read or heard "yellow subtitles" or its equivalent in
other languages. As in the comments you found, I think it just means
that the subtitles are yellow and not white.

Fun fact: in Italian "giallo" (lit. "yellow") is a mystery novel and
also a mysterious affair.
You can find here an explanation:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giallo#Literature>

Hibou

2024-06-07 08:06:50 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
Some years back, I bought a foreign DVD that said on the
jacket that it had "yellow subtitles" in English. It did, indeed.
Unlike most DVD subtitles, these were THERE, not dismissable.
The question has remained in my mind ever since then -- was
"yellow subtitles" ever a code that indicated permanent subtitles?
A quick Google does not give me any hint of that. Mainly, there
are comments on why yellow is better than white, and people
showing how to use yellow in your own videos.

Sorry, I never read or heard "yellow subtitles" or its equivalent in
other languages. As in the comments you found, I think it just means
that the subtitles are yellow and not white. [...]

Given that film actors now routinely mumble over a background of music
or sound effects or both, subtitles have never been more important. (I
acknowledge that my ears are no longer as acute as when I was an owlet,
but I've heard that young people also often toil to understand dialogue.)

"'It's really a gumbo [thick soup?], an accumulation of problems that
have been exacerbated over the last 10 years ... that's kind of this
time span where all of us in the filmmaking community are noticing that
dialogue is harder and harder to understand'" -
<https://www.slashfilm.com/673162/heres-why-movie-dialogue-has-gotten-more-difficult-to-understand-and-three-ways-to-fix-it/>

Rich Ulrich

2024-06-09 02:16:31 UTC

On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 09:06:50 +0100, Hibou

Sorry, I never read or heard "yellow subtitles" or its equivalent in
other languages. As in the comments you found, I think it just means
that the subtitles are yellow and not white. [...]

Given that film actors now routinely mumble over a background of music
or sound effects or both, subtitles have never been more important. (I
acknowledge that my ears are no longer as acute as when I was an owlet,
but I've heard that young people also often toil to understand dialogue.)
"'It's really a gumbo [thick soup?], an accumulation of problems that
have been exacerbated over the last 10 years ... that's kind of this
time span where all of us in the filmmaking community are noticing that
dialogue is harder and harder to understand'" -
<https://www.slashfilm.com/673162/heres-why-movie-dialogue-has-gotten-more-difficult-to-understand-and-three-ways-to-fix-it/>

There's a lot in the article.

The article hints at the problems of playback-volume in a couple of
paces, but could have been clearer.

"I did a film that was [played] at a 4 [out of 7 on the processor
scale]," she says, still appalled by the memory. "I was at a matinee
with a lot of elderly people because I took my mom, and I'm like,
'None of these people can hear what's happening.' The manager, who
was probably all of 22 years old, said, 'Well, that's how the film
was done.' And I said, 'No, I did the sound on the film. That's not
how it was done.'"

I noticed at an I-Max showing that I was never bothered by audience
noise -- their excellent audio speakers were playing VERY loud;
music and gray noise drowned out the local, ambient noises. Say,
maybe they were playing back at 110 decibels as normal, with
dialogue at 30 dB lower. Dialogue at 80 dB is intelligible, regardless
of the background music dB, so the testers say.

Perceived "loudness" is high when there is distortion. So, if the
theater's speakers give distortion, they turn down the volume,
say, from 110 to 95. That was the point of what I quoted above.
The reduction takes dialogue at 80 to 65 -- far less intelligible.
(My non-professional guesses on dB's.)

Similarly, you can play your home DVD of the theatrical sound
track at 110 dB and hear the dialogue. But no one plays it that
loud. Well, I've started taking in movies with headphones, so
now I do experience the high dBs.

The article DOES say that there should be a different mix for
the DVD version without saying WHY; and it comments that
"not everyone" does it (which I think is a wording that is kind
to the industry).

--
Rich Ulrich

lar3ryca

2024-06-09 03:27:51 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 09:06:50 +0100, Hibou

Sorry, I never read or heard "yellow subtitles" or its equivalent in
other languages. As in the comments you found, I think it just means
that the subtitles are yellow and not white. [...]

Given that film actors now routinely mumble over a background of music
or sound effects or both, subtitles have never been more important. (I
acknowledge that my ears are no longer as acute as when I was an owlet,
but I've heard that young people also often toil to understand dialogue.)
"'It's really a gumbo [thick soup?], an accumulation of problems that
have been exacerbated over the last 10 years ... that's kind of this
time span where all of us in the filmmaking community are noticing that
dialogue is harder and harder to understand'" -
<https://www.slashfilm.com/673162/heres-why-movie-dialogue-has-gotten-more-difficult-to-understand-and-three-ways-to-fix-it/>

There's a lot in the article.
The article hints at the problems of playback-volume in a couple of
paces, but could have been clearer.
"I did a film that was [played] at a 4 [out of 7 on the processor
scale]," she says, still appalled by the memory. "I was at a matinee
with a lot of elderly people because I took my mom, and I'm like,
'None of these people can hear what's happening.' The manager, who
was probably all of 22 years old, said, 'Well, that's how the film
was done.' And I said, 'No, I did the sound on the film. That's not
how it was done.'"
I noticed at an I-Max showing that I was never bothered by audience
noise -- their excellent audio speakers were playing VERY loud;
music and gray noise drowned out the local, ambient noises. Say,
maybe they were playing back at 110 decibels as normal, with
dialogue at 30 dB lower. Dialogue at 80 dB is intelligible, regardless
of the background music dB, so the testers say.
Perceived "loudness" is high when there is distortion. So, if the
theater's speakers give distortion, they turn down the volume,
say, from 110 to 95. That was the point of what I quoted above.
The reduction takes dialogue at 80 to 65 -- far less intelligible.
(My non-professional guesses on dB's.)
Similarly, you can play your home DVD of the theatrical sound
track at 110 dB and hear the dialogue. But no one plays it that
loud. Well, I've started taking in movies with headphones, so
now I do experience the high dBs.
The article DOES say that there should be a different mix for
the DVD version without saying WHY; and it comments that
"not everyone" does it (which I think is a wording that is kind
to the industry).

My Samsung tablet has a very annoying 'feature' that reduces the volume
when headphones are plugged in. It is reduced it to the point where I
have to concentrate in order to overcome fairly quiet ambient noise.

--
A pessimist's blood type is always B-negative.

Adam Funk

2024-06-07 10:41:29 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 08:01:09 +0200, Silvano

Matching lip movements should be less of a problem when the film
does not have people, but is the 'stark colorful graphics' of anime.

I've been watching the anime of _Delicious in Dungeon_ recently, with
Japanese sound & English subtitles. Normally I only recognise a couple
of words of Japanese, but I've noticed that a lot of the monsters &
some other bits of D&D-type jargon are obviously Japanese adaptations
of the English words (undine, dungeon, dungeon cleaners, basilisk,
chimera, golem, & even omelet, I think).

--
Radiation! Yes, indeed. You hear the most outrageous lies about
it. Half-baked goggle-box do-gooders telling everybody it's bad
for you. Pernicious nonsense! ---J Frank Parnell

Madhu

2024-06-07 03:33:02 UTC

I've come across clips with style of "dubbing" where a man (typically)
reads out the transcript, i.e. the same person dubs for all characters,
whether they are female or male, with some dramatization. The original
soundtrack plays at an almost inaudible volume when the dubbing is on.

The voiceover (should it be called "dubbing?") was usually European
Language I couldn't understand, but with minimal dramatization, it
wasn't as weird as it initially seemed. All accents and styles are
interpreted by the voiceover artist, and a skillful artist with a
familiar speaking-idiom can be found to be quite acceptable, i think.

Post by Silvano
Subtitling constraints: what's said in a frame must be compressed in a
few characters, so that people have enough time to read and understand
the subtitles before the action moves on to the next picture. In my
few assignments it was 2 lines of max. 40 characters each per frame,
spaces between words and punctuation marks included.

occam

2024-06-07 08:42:07 UTC

Please note that dubbing and subtitling are two different activities
with very different requirements and therefore, obviously, different
results.

Quite right!

In a recent Netflix film I watched, both dubbing and subtitles were
available in English, simultaneously. I am not sure which was the
director's choice, but there were divergences between the two - meaning
the spoken word was not the same as the subtitled text. The character
would say "Fuck off" whereas the subtitle would show "Go away". (OK,
that's a made up example, to be taken with a pinch of salt.)

occam

2024-06-05 14:52:10 UTC

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by subtitling a
Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling
Dutch ones.

Retaliate? Did it use to be customary to exclude Walloons?

I once went to a movie in Brussels that was subtitled in about six
languages. A good idea, but it took a lot of screen space.

Six? I cannot imagine what the fifth or sixth could be? French, Flemish,
Dutch, English, and what else?

Having said that, I have had some of the most memorable movie
experiences in Brussels, from silent movies (with live piano
accompaniment) to open air late night film sessions (under the stars),
to all-night screenings of adverts from around the world. It's a great
place to be if you're a film buff.

Post by Peter Moylan
At roughly the same time I saw another that was subtitled in French. My
French wasn't brilliant at that time, so I had to work hard at reading
the subtitles. I got about halfway through the film before I realised
that the spoken dialogue was in English.

Sam Plusnet

2024-06-05 18:48:25 UTC

Post by occam
Having said that, I have had some of the most memorable movie
experiences in Brussels, from silent movies (with live piano
accompaniment) to open air late night film sessions (under the stars),
to all-night screenings of adverts from around the world. It's a great
place to be if you're a film buff.

Looking in various dictionaries, that word "buff" seems to do a great
deal of heavy lifting in English - and I still can't find a convincing
explanation for its use in "film buff".

--
Sam Plusnet

Snidely

2024-06-05 20:57:14 UTC

Looking in various dictionaries, that word "buff" seems to do a great deal of
heavy lifting in English - and I still can't find a convincing explanation
for its use in "film buff".

Well, the same explanation would be expected to work for "camera buff"
and "train buff". And I'm pretty sure some other soft polishing rags
will come to mind once I've posted.

/dps

--
"I am not given to exaggeration, and when I say a thing I mean it"
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

jerryfriedman

2024-06-06 13:50:11 UTC

Looking in various dictionaries, that word "buff" seems to do a great
deal of heavy lifting in English - and I still can't find a convincing
explanation for its use in "film buff".

I find this one persuasive, maybe even convincing.

'Buff-colored uniforms of New York City volunteer firefighters since
1820s led to the meaning "enthusiast" (1903).

'| These men, together with a score or more of young boys who cherish
| ambitions to be firemen some day, make up the unofficial Fire
| Department of New York, and any one who imagines they are not a
| valuable branch of the service need only ask any firemen [sic] what
| he thinks of the Buffs to find out his mistake. The Buffs are men and
| boys whose love of fires, fire-fighting and firemen is a predominant
| characteristic, who simply cannot keep away from fires, no matter at
| what time of the day or night they occur, or how long they continue.
| [New York Sun, Feb. 4, 1903]'

https://www.etymonline.com/word/buff#etymonline_v_18035

On the other hand, the entry for the adjective says confidently that
the "well-built, hunky" sense comes from the "polish" sense. How
do you eliminate (as the birders say) connections to "weightlifting
buff" and "big and strong like a buffalo"?

--
Jerry Friedman

Ross Clark

2024-06-07 09:17:15 UTC

Looking in various dictionaries, that word "buff" seems to do a great
deal of heavy lifting in English - and I still can't find a convincing
explanation for its use in "film buff".

I find this one persuasive, maybe even convincing.
'Buff-colored uniforms of New York City volunteer firefighters since
1820s led to the meaning "enthusiast" (1903).
'| These men, together with a score or more of young boys who cherish
| ambitions to be firemen some day, make up the unofficial Fire
| Department of New York, and any one who imagines they are not a
| valuable branch of the service need only ask any firemen [sic] what
| he thinks of the Buffs to find out his mistake. The Buffs are men and
| boys whose love of fires, fire-fighting and firemen is a predominant
| characteristic, who simply cannot keep away from fires, no matter at
| what time of the day or night they occur, or how long they continue.
| [New York Sun, Feb. 4, 1903]'
https://www.etymonline.com/word/buff#etymonline_v_18035

Yes, I'm sure this is right. A fascinating etymology. The "fire buffs"
of New York were not really volunteer firefighters -- they hadn't had
those since the department was professionalized in 1865. They were more
like a firefighters auxiliary, who performed small services like
bringing coffee and sandwiches to the firemen, and might occasionally
help at actual fires with moving hoses and such like, if needed.

And their name somehow looks back to the "buff coats" worn by fire
fighters at some early period, though I'm not sure whether "buff" refers
to the colour, or the material, or both.

Here's a bit from our extended discussion of this here in 2014, when I
dredged up a lot of references from the ProQuest NY Times files:

==================
"The Ancient Order of Buffs, Inc." (28 Feb 1915), a long and interesting
article subheaded "Well-to-Do Men Who Run to All of the Big Fires With
Boyish Enthusiasm" -- people like Mr Brentano.

It is clear that the "buffs" did far more than just observe.

"It may occur to some people that the Buffs are more or less of a
nuisance at a fire and accomplish no good. But the officials and the
firemen themselves do not think so. They enthusiastically praise the
work of the Buffs. No other department in the city has such a body of
faithful devotees.
...
They are ever ready to perform any service at a fire that is required.
Many have a thorough knowledge of fire fighting methods and a Chief or
Commissioner is often glad to consult them....They help with the hose
and the apparatus if it is necessary. They furnish coffee and sandwiches
to the fighters on a cold night, and when the men are exhausted. Some of
them, Dr.Archer, for instance, have trained medical knowledge, which is
often useful."

Lest you think this was all made up, there is a fascinating glimpse,
in a story from a few years earlier, of the buffs as a normal part
of the firefighting scene, and not just at fires:

"FIREMAN STABBED IN A FRAY" (5 Dec 1909) Subhead:
"Italian Uses a Stiletto on Him When He Goes to a Buff's Rescue"
Albert Robinson, a young member of Engine Company 55...grew hungry last
night at 8 o'clock, and, following a custom in fire houses, called a
buff, gave him a quarter and told him to go to a nearby restaurant for a
can of coffee and some food.
Now, there is a mild sort of a feud between the buffs of No.55 and the
young Italians of the neighborhood. A second after the buff had stepped
out of the door, Robinson heard cries of anger and pain. Rushing outside
he saw his buff, he said later, surrounded by several Italians, who were
beating him and trying to take the quarter away from him.
etc.

So the first "buffs" were "fire buffs", and this is the sort of thing
they did. Now why "buff"? One more NYT story:

HONOR EIGHT HEROES IN FIREMEN'S PARADE
Medals for Bravery Presented During Fiftieth
Anniversary of Paid Fire Department
Old Volunteers in Line

"In the first section of the parade were the old-timers and their
apparatus in an attempt to show graphically the progress made by the New
York Fire Department during fifty years. In the lead, marching sturdily
in the heavy buff coat and helmet of the day, was Daniel O'Connor and
three other veterans who served in 1865, the year the paid Fire
Department came into existence."

There's the buff coat (not clear here whether "buff" refers to a colour
or a material). Worn by firefighters ca. 1865.

Finally from Wikipedia ("New York City Fire Department"):

"In 1865 the volunteer fire department was abolished by a state act
which created the Metropolitan Fire District and the Metropolitan Fire
Department (MFD)....The change met with a mixed reaction from the
citizens, and some of the eliminated volunteers became bitter and
resentful, which resulted in both political battles and street fights.
The insurance companies in the city, however, finally won the battle and
had the volunteers replaced with paid professionals. The members of the
paid fire department were primarily selected from the prior volunteers.
All of the volunteer's apparatus, including their fire houses, were
seized by the state who made use of them to form the new organization
and form the basis of the FDNY as we know it today."

Can we suggest that the later "buffs" got their name from (the coats of)
the pre-1865 volunteers, and some may indeed have been former volunteers
who wanted to continue helping fight fires, though not on a full time
professional basis?

=====================

Only after about 1930 do we find it generalized to things like "film
buff" and "jazz buff".

charles

2024-06-07 11:15:03 UTC

Looking in various dictionaries, that word "buff" seems to do a great
deal of heavy lifting in English - and I still can't find a convincing
explanation for its use in "film buff".

I find this one persuasive, maybe even convincing.
'Buff-colored uniforms of New York City volunteer firefighters since
1820s led to the meaning "enthusiast" (1903).
'| These men, together with a score or more of young boys who cherish
| ambitions to be firemen some day, make up the unofficial Fire
| Department of New York, and any one who imagines they are not a
| valuable branch of the service need only ask any firemen [sic] what
| he thinks of the Buffs to find out his mistake. The Buffs are men and
| boys whose love of fires, fire-fighting and firemen is a predominant
| characteristic, who simply cannot keep away from fires, no matter at
| what time of the day or night they occur, or how long they continue.
| [New York Sun, Feb. 4, 1903]'
https://www.etymonline.com/word/buff#etymonline_v_18035

Yes, I'm sure this is right. A fascinating etymology. The "fire buffs"
of New York were not really volunteer firefighters -- they hadn't had
those since the department was professionalized in 1865. They were more
like a firefighters auxiliary, who performed small services like
bringing coffee and sandwiches to the firemen, and might occasionally
help at actual fires with moving hoses and such like, if needed.
And their name somehow looks back to the "buff coats" worn by fire
fighters at some early period, though I'm not sure whether "buff" refers
to the colour, or the material, or both.
Here's a bit from our extended discussion of this here in 2014, when I
==================
"The Ancient Order of Buffs, Inc." (28 Feb 1915), a long and interesting
article subheaded "Well-to-Do Men Who Run to All of the Big Fires With
Boyish Enthusiasm" -- people like Mr Brentano.
It is clear that the "buffs" did far more than just observe.
"It may occur to some people that the Buffs are more or less of a
nuisance at a fire and accomplish no good. But the officials and the
firemen themselves do not think so. They enthusiastically praise the
work of the Buffs. No other department in the city has such a body of
faithful devotees.
...
They are ever ready to perform any service at a fire that is required.
Many have a thorough knowledge of fire fighting methods and a Chief or
Commissioner is often glad to consult them....They help with the hose
and the apparatus if it is necessary. They furnish coffee and sandwiches
to the fighters on a cold night, and when the men are exhausted. Some of
them, Dr.Archer, for instance, have trained medical knowledge, which is
often useful."
Lest you think this was all made up, there is a fascinating glimpse,
in a story from a few years earlier, of the buffs as a normal part
"Italian Uses a Stiletto on Him When He Goes to a Buff's Rescue"
Albert Robinson, a young member of Engine Company 55...grew hungry last
night at 8 o'clock, and, following a custom in fire houses, called a
buff, gave him a quarter and told him to go to a nearby restaurant for a
can of coffee and some food.
Now, there is a mild sort of a feud between the buffs of No.55 and the
young Italians of the neighborhood. A second after the buff had stepped
out of the door, Robinson heard cries of anger and pain. Rushing outside
he saw his buff, he said later, surrounded by several Italians, who were
beating him and trying to take the quarter away from him.
etc.
So the first "buffs" were "fire buffs", and this is the sort of thing
HONOR EIGHT HEROES IN FIREMEN'S PARADE
Medals for Bravery Presented During Fiftieth
Anniversary of Paid Fire Department
Old Volunteers in Line
"In the first section of the parade were the old-timers and their
apparatus in an attempt to show graphically the progress made by the New
York Fire Department during fifty years. In the lead, marching sturdily
in the heavy buff coat and helmet of the day, was Daniel O'Connor and
three other veterans who served in 1865, the year the paid Fire
Department came into existence."
There's the buff coat (not clear here whether "buff" refers to a colour
or a material). Worn by firefighters ca. 1865.
"In 1865 the volunteer fire department was abolished by a state act
which created the Metropolitan Fire District and the Metropolitan Fire
Department (MFD)....The change met with a mixed reaction from the
citizens, and some of the eliminated volunteers became bitter and
resentful, which resulted in both political battles and street fights.
The insurance companies in the city, however, finally won the battle and
had the volunteers replaced with paid professionals. The members of the
paid fire department were primarily selected from the prior volunteers.
All of the volunteer's apparatus, including their fire houses, were
seized by the state who made use of them to form the new organization
and form the basis of the FDNY as we know it today."
Can we suggest that the later "buffs" got their name from (the coats of)
the pre-1865 volunteers, and some may indeed have been former volunteers
who wanted to continue helping fight fires, though not on a full time
professional basis?
=====================
Only after about 1930 do we find it generalized to things like "film
buff" and "jazz buff".

On the other side of the pond, a British Army regiment was called "The
Buffs" from 1708!

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Peter Moylan

2024-06-07 11:18:56 UTC

Post by jerryfriedman
I find this one persuasive, maybe even convincing.
'Buff-colored uniforms of New York City volunteer firefighters
since 1820s led to the meaning "enthusiast" (1903).
'| These men, together with a score or more of young boys who
cherish | ambitions to be firemen some day, make up the unofficial
Fire | Department of New York, and any one who imagines they are
not a | valuable branch of the service need only ask any firemen
[sic] what | he thinks of the Buffs to find out his mistake. The
Buffs are men and | boys whose love of fires, fire-fighting and
firemen is a predominant | characteristic, who simply cannot keep
away from fires, no matter at | what time of the day or night they
occur, or how long they continue. | [New York Sun, Feb. 4, 1903]'
https://www.etymonline.com/word/buff#etymonline_v_18035

In the long run this "love of fires" can be a problem. I don't know what
it's like in other countries, but here it turns out that a surprising
number of arsonists are members of fire brigades.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Adam Funk

2024-06-07 14:32:19 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
In the long run this "love of fires" can be a problem. I don't know what
it's like in other countries, but here it turns out that a surprising
number of arsonists are members of fire brigades.

Well, these days they probably have targets (extinguish n fires per
month) to hit!

--
It is probable that television drama of high caliber and produced by
first-rate artists will materially raise the level of dramatic taste
of the nation. ---David Sarnoff, CEO of RCA, 1939; in Stoll 1995

Adam Funk

2024-06-07 14:31:37 UTC

Looking in various dictionaries, that word "buff" seems to do a great
deal of heavy lifting in English - and I still can't find a convincing
explanation for its use in "film buff".

I find this one persuasive, maybe even convincing.
'Buff-colored uniforms of New York City volunteer firefighters since
1820s led to the meaning "enthusiast" (1903).
'| These men, together with a score or more of young boys who cherish
| ambitions to be firemen some day, make up the unofficial Fire
| Department of New York, and any one who imagines they are not a
| valuable branch of the service need only ask any firemen [sic] what
| he thinks of the Buffs to find out his mistake. The Buffs are men and
| boys whose love of fires, fire-fighting and firemen is a predominant
| characteristic, who simply cannot keep away from fires, no matter at
| what time of the day or night they occur, or how long they continue.
| [New York Sun, Feb. 4, 1903]'
https://www.etymonline.com/word/buff#etymonline_v_18035

...

Post by Ross Clark
Can we suggest that the later "buffs" got their name from (the coats of)
the pre-1865 volunteers, and some may indeed have been former volunteers
who wanted to continue helping fight fires, though not on a full time
professional basis?
=====================
Only after about 1930 do we find it generalized to things like "film
buff" and "jazz buff".

That is fascinating. I'd never really thought about the word until
now, but I would never have guessed it started with fire buffs.

--
You know that I can surely see that I don't want to get caught up in
any of that funky shit goin' down in the city. (Steve Miller)

jerryfriedman

2024-06-07 19:35:55 UTC

Looking in various dictionaries, that word "buff" seems to do a great
deal of heavy lifting in English - and I still can't find a convincing
explanation for its use in "film buff".

I find this one persuasive, maybe even convincing.
'Buff-colored uniforms of New York City volunteer firefighters since
1820s led to the meaning "enthusiast" (1903).
'| These men, together with a score or more of young boys who cherish
| ambitions to be firemen some day, make up the unofficial Fire
| Department of New York, and any one who imagines they are not a
| valuable branch of the service need only ask any firemen [sic] what
| he thinks of the Buffs to find out his mistake. The Buffs are men and
| boys whose love of fires, fire-fighting and firemen is a predominant
| characteristic, who simply cannot keep away from fires, no matter at
| what time of the day or night they occur, or how long they continue.
| [New York Sun, Feb. 4, 1903]'
https://www.etymonline.com/word/buff#etymonline_v_18035

Yes, I'm sure this is right. A fascinating etymology. The "fire buffs"
of New York were not really volunteer firefighters -- they hadn't had
those since the department was professionalized in 1865. They were more
like a firefighters auxiliary, who performed small services like
bringing coffee and sandwiches to the firemen, and might occasionally
help at actual fires with moving hoses and such like, if needed.
And their name somehow looks back to the "buff coats" worn by fire
fighters at some early period, though I'm not sure whether "buff" refers
to the colour, or the material, or both.
Here's a bit from our extended discussion of this here in 2014, when I
==================
"The Ancient Order of Buffs, Inc." (28 Feb 1915), a long and
interesting
article subheaded "Well-to-Do Men Who Run to All of the Big Fires With
Boyish Enthusiasm" -- people like Mr Brentano.
It is clear that the "buffs" did far more than just observe.
"It may occur to some people that the Buffs are more or less of a
nuisance at a fire and accomplish no good. But the officials and the
firemen themselves do not think so. They enthusiastically praise the
work of the Buffs. No other department in the city has such a body of
faithful devotees.
....
They are ever ready to perform any service at a fire that is required.
Many have a thorough knowledge of fire fighting methods and a Chief or
Commissioner is often glad to consult them....They help with the hose
and the apparatus if it is necessary. They furnish coffee and
sandwiches
to the fighters on a cold night, and when the men are exhausted. Some of
them, Dr.Archer, for instance, have trained medical knowledge, which is
often useful."
Lest you think this was all made up, there is a fascinating glimpse,
in a story from a few years earlier, of the buffs as a normal part
"Italian Uses a Stiletto on Him When He Goes to a Buff's Rescue"
Albert Robinson, a young member of Engine Company 55...grew hungry last
night at 8 o'clock, and, following a custom in fire houses, called a
buff, gave him a quarter and told him to go to a nearby restaurant for a
can of coffee and some food.
Now, there is a mild sort of a feud between the buffs of No.55 and the
young Italians of the neighborhood. A second after the buff had stepped
out of the door, Robinson heard cries of anger and pain. Rushing outside
he saw his buff, he said later, surrounded by several Italians, who were
beating him and trying to take the quarter away from him.
etc.
So the first "buffs" were "fire buffs", and this is the sort of thing
HONOR EIGHT HEROES IN FIREMEN'S PARADE
Medals for Bravery Presented During Fiftieth
Anniversary of Paid Fire Department
Old Volunteers in Line
"In the first section of the parade were the old-timers and their
apparatus in an attempt to show graphically the progress made by the New
York Fire Department during fifty years. In the lead, marching sturdily
in the heavy buff coat and helmet of the day, was Daniel O'Connor and
three other veterans who served in 1865, the year the paid Fire
Department came into existence."
There's the buff coat (not clear here whether "buff" refers to a colour
or a material). Worn by firefighters ca. 1865.
"In 1865 the volunteer fire department was abolished by a state act
which created the Metropolitan Fire District and the Metropolitan Fire
Department (MFD)....The change met with a mixed reaction from the
citizens, and some of the eliminated volunteers became bitter and
resentful, which resulted in both political battles and street fights.
The insurance companies in the city, however, finally won the battle and
had the volunteers replaced with paid professionals. The members of the
paid fire department were primarily selected from the prior volunteers.
All of the volunteer's apparatus, including their fire houses, were
seized by the state who made use of them to form the new organization
and form the basis of the FDNY as we know it today."
Can we suggest that the later "buffs" got their name from (the coats of)
the pre-1865 volunteers, and some may indeed have been former
volunteers
who wanted to continue helping fight fires, though not on a full time
professional basis?

We can, and we can also wonder what the early paid firemen wore, but
I couldn't find out at GB.

One article of the time said they got their name from the buffalo robes
they wore in cold weather, and another said they slept on buffalo
robes, in the "company quarters" where they could respond at an
instant's
notice, not to save the buildings and people, but to stake their claim
before the other volunteer companies.

https://www.barrypopik.com/new_york_city/entry/fire_buff/

Post by Ross Clark
=====================
Only after about 1930 do we find it generalized to things like "film
buff" and "jazz buff".

As you undoubtedly saw at the OED or Green, an early use was "police
buff" in Emanuel H. Lavine, /The Third Degree: A Detailed and Appalling
Exposé of Police Brutality/ (1930). GB has a snippet view, and for
some reason that copy is particularly hard to search, but "New York"
occurs more times than Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston, and Baltimore
put together, so I suspect Lavine was a New Yorker, which is a good
bet for an American named Emanuel Lavine at the time anway. And
"police buff" could easily have spread from the fire usage.

(The snippet says the police were trying to make someone confess
when a dentist who was a police buff came in, and then the author
defines "police buff" and the snippet ends before saying what the
dentist did--fortunately.)

--
Jerry Friedman

jerryfriedman

2024-06-07 21:05:25 UTC

(fire buffs)

Post by Ross Clark
Only after about 1930 do we find it generalized to things like "film
buff" and "jazz buff".

..

In fact he was a New York reporter.

https://books.google.com/books?id=2Q19hMwsNgYC&pg=PA126

Incidentally, I couldn't find any instances of "police buff" at GB
before
Lavine.

--
Jerry Friedman

Ross Clark

2024-06-07 21:36:47 UTC

Looking in various dictionaries, that word "buff" seems to do a
great deal of heavy lifting in English - and I still can't find a
convincing explanation for its use in "film buff".

I find this one persuasive, maybe even convincing.
'Buff-colored uniforms of New York City volunteer firefighters since
1820s led to the meaning "enthusiast" (1903).
'| These men, together with a score or more of young boys who cherish
| ambitions to be firemen some day, make up the unofficial Fire
| Department of New York, and any one who imagines they are not a
| valuable branch of the service need only ask any firemen [sic] what
| he thinks of the Buffs to find out his mistake. The Buffs are men and
| boys whose love of fires, fire-fighting and firemen is a predominant
| characteristic, who simply cannot keep away from fires, no matter at
| what time of the day or night they occur, or how long they continue.
| [New York Sun, Feb. 4, 1903]'
https://www.etymonline.com/word/buff#etymonline_v_18035

Yes, I'm sure this is right. A fascinating etymology. The "fire buffs"
of New York were not really volunteer firefighters -- they hadn't had
those since the department was professionalized in 1865. They were more
like a firefighters auxiliary, who performed small services like
bringing coffee and sandwiches to the firemen, and might occasionally
help at actual fires with moving hoses and such like, if needed.
And their name somehow looks back to the "buff coats" worn by fire
fighters at some early period, though I'm not sure whether "buff" refers
to the colour, or the material, or both.
Here's a bit from our extended discussion of this here in 2014, when I
==================
"The Ancient Order of Buffs, Inc." (28 Feb 1915), a long and
interesting
article subheaded "Well-to-Do Men Who Run to All of the Big Fires With
Boyish Enthusiasm" -- people like Mr Brentano.
It is clear that the "buffs" did far more than just observe.
"It may occur to some people that the Buffs are more or less of a
nuisance at a fire and accomplish no good. But the officials and the
firemen themselves do not think so. They enthusiastically praise the
work of the Buffs. No other department in the city has such a body of
faithful devotees.
....
They are ever ready to perform any service at a fire that is required.
Many have a thorough knowledge of fire fighting methods and a Chief or
Commissioner is often glad to consult them....They help with the hose
and the apparatus if it is necessary. They furnish coffee and
sandwiches
to the fighters on a cold night, and when the men are exhausted. Some of
them, Dr.Archer, for instance, have trained medical knowledge, which is
often useful."
Lest you think this was all made up, there is a fascinating glimpse,
in a story from a few years earlier, of the buffs as a normal part
"Italian Uses a Stiletto on Him When He Goes to a Buff's Rescue"
Albert Robinson, a young member of Engine Company 55...grew hungry last
night at 8 o'clock, and, following a custom in fire houses, called a
buff, gave him a quarter and told him to go to a nearby restaurant for a
can of coffee and some food.
Now, there is a mild sort of a feud between the buffs of No.55 and the
young Italians of the neighborhood. A second after the buff had stepped
out of the door, Robinson heard cries of anger and pain. Rushing outside
he saw his buff, he said later, surrounded by several Italians, who were
beating him and trying to take the quarter away from him.
etc.
So the first "buffs" were "fire buffs", and this is the sort of thing
HONOR EIGHT HEROES IN FIREMEN'S PARADE
Medals for Bravery Presented During Fiftieth
Anniversary of Paid Fire Department
Old Volunteers in Line
"In the first section of the parade were the old-timers and their
apparatus in an attempt to show graphically the progress made by the New
York Fire Department during fifty years. In the lead, marching sturdily
in the heavy buff coat and helmet of the day, was Daniel O'Connor and
three other veterans who served in 1865, the year the paid Fire
Department came into existence."
There's the buff coat (not clear here whether "buff" refers to a colour
or a material). Worn by firefighters ca. 1865.
"In 1865 the volunteer fire department was abolished by a state act
which created the Metropolitan Fire District and the Metropolitan Fire
Department (MFD)....The change met with a mixed reaction from the
citizens, and some of the eliminated volunteers became bitter and
resentful, which resulted in both political battles and street fights.
The insurance companies in the city, however, finally won the battle and
had the volunteers replaced with paid professionals. The members of the
paid fire department were primarily selected from the prior volunteers.
All of the volunteer's apparatus, including their fire houses, were
seized by the state who made use of them to form the new organization
and form the basis of the FDNY as we know it today."
Can we suggest that the later "buffs" got their name from (the coats of)
the pre-1865 volunteers, and some may indeed have been former
volunteers
who wanted to continue helping fight fires, though not on a full time
professional basis?

We can, and we can also wonder what the early paid firemen wore, but
I couldn't find out at GB.
One article of the time said they got their name from the buffalo robes
they wore in cold weather, and another said they slept on buffalo
robes, in the "company quarters" where they could respond at an
instant's
notice, not to save the buildings and people, but to stake their claim
before the other volunteer companies.
https://www.barrypopik.com/new_york_city/entry/fire_buff/

Post by Ross Clark
=====================

Maybe not what I would think of when I read "buffalo robes", but...
revisiting OED, I see

buff n. 1. a buffalo [either kind] (1538-)
4a. A thick, dull yellow leather with a velvety surface,
typically made from the hide of buffalo, oxen, or elk (1554-)
4b. Military attire, traditionally made from buff leather;
spec. a military coat of buff leather (1598-)
and of course:
9. (in plural) A popular name for any of various British military
regiments wearing uniforms with buff-coloured facings...
("Steady, the Buffs!")

Post by Ross Clark
Only after about 1930 do we find it generalized to things like "film
buff" and "jazz buff".

As you undoubtedly saw at the OED or Green, an early use was "police
buff" in Emanuel H. Lavine, /The Third Degree: A Detailed and Appalling
Exposé of Police Brutality/ (1930). GB has a snippet view, and for
some reason that copy is particularly hard to search, but "New York"
occurs more times than Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston, and Baltimore
put together, so I suspect Lavine was a New Yorker, which is a good
bet for an American named Emanuel Lavine at the time anway. And
"police buff" could easily have spread from the fire usage.
(The snippet says the police were trying to make someone confess
when a dentist who was a police buff came in, and then the author
defines "police buff" and the snippet ends before saying what the
dentist did--fortunately.)

No, hadn't seen that before! OED has this much of it:

(1931) A dentist, known to many cops as a police buff (a person who
likes to associate with members of the department and in exchange for
having the run of the station house does various courtesies for the
police).

jerryfriedman

2024-06-09 02:05:38 UTC

We can, and we can also wonder what the early paid firemen wore, but
I couldn't find out at GB.
One article of the time said they got their name from the buffalo robes
they wore in cold weather, and another said they slept on buffalo
robes, in the "company quarters" where they could respond at an
instant's
notice, not to save the buildings and people, but to stake their claim
before the other volunteer companies.
https://www.barrypopik.com/new_york_city/entry/fire_buff/

Post by Ross Clark
=====================

Maybe not what I would think of when I read "buffalo robes", but...
revisiting OED, I see
buff n. 1. a buffalo [either kind] (1538-)
4a. A thick, dull yellow leather with a velvety surface,
typically made from the hide of buffalo, oxen, or elk (1554-)
4b. Military attire, traditionally made from buff leather;
spec. a military coat of buff leather (1598-)
9. (in plural) A popular name for any of various British military
regiments wearing uniforms with buff-coloured facings...
("Steady, the Buffs!")

..

Good stuff. But when are you going to settle the buff=muscular
question? :-)

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter Moylan

2024-06-05 23:00:31 UTC

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by subtitling a
Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling
Dutch ones.

Retaliate? Did it use to be customary to exclude Walloons?

I once went to a movie in Brussels that was subtitled in about six
languages. A good idea, but it took a lot of screen space.

Six? I cannot imagine what the fifth or sixth could be? French, Flemish,
Dutch, English, and what else?

It's a distant memory, so I can't be certain. Probably German, Italian,
and Spanish.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

occam

2024-06-06 07:17:06 UTC

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by subtitling a
Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling
Dutch ones.

Retaliate? Did it use to be customary to exclude Walloons?

I once went to a movie in Brussels that was subtitled in about six
languages. A good idea, but it took a lot of screen space.

Six? I cannot imagine what the fifth or sixth could be? French, Flemish,
Dutch, English, and what else?

It's a distant memory, so I can't be certain. Probably German, Italian,
and Spanish.

German, maybe. Was the original film in Albanian? </smile>

Ross Clark

2024-06-06 10:37:21 UTC

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by subtitling a
Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course retaliated by subtitling
Dutch ones.

Retaliate? Did it use to be customary to exclude Walloons?

I once went to a movie in Brussels that was subtitled in about six
languages. A good idea, but it took a lot of screen space.

Six? I cannot imagine what the fifth or sixth could be? French, Flemish,
Dutch, English, and what else?

It's a distant memory, so I can't be certain. Probably German, Italian,
and Spanish.

German, maybe. Was the original film in Albanian? </smile>

I can dimly recall seeing a film in which subtitles occupied two, or
even three, sides of the frame. Possibly a Hong Kong martial arts film
with translations in Mandarin, Hindi, French and English?

If I did, it might well have been in the 70s in Port Vila -- sort of the
end of the cinema food (or excretory) chain, like those places in the
Yukon where they never even bothered to send the film back to the
distributor when they were done with it -- just chucked it in the
basement....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_Film_Find

Peter Moylan

2024-06-08 14:44:19 UTC

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by
subtitling a Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course
retaliated by subtitling Dutch ones.

Retaliate? Did it use to be customary to exclude Walloons?

I once went to a movie in Brussels that was subtitled in about
six languages. A good idea, but it took a lot of screen space.

Six? I cannot imagine what the fifth or sixth could be? French,
Flemish, Dutch, English, and what else?

It's a distant memory, so I can't be certain. Probably German,
Italian, and Spanish.

German, maybe. Was the original film in Albanian? </smile>

Let's remember that Brussels is packed solid with people from a whole
variety of countries.

German is one of the less likely languages. Although it's an official
language of Belgium, that's only a sop thrown to a small handful of
German speakers right at the edge of the country.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

J. J. Lodder

2024-06-09 10:48:10 UTC

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by
subtitling a Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course
retaliated by subtitling Dutch ones.

Retaliate? Did it use to be customary to exclude Walloons?

I once went to a movie in Brussels that was subtitled in about
six languages. A good idea, but it took a lot of screen space.

Six? I cannot imagine what the fifth or sixth could be? French,
Flemish, Dutch, English, and what else?

It's a distant memory, so I can't be certain. Probably German,
Italian, and Spanish.

German, maybe. Was the original film in Albanian? </smile>

Let's remember that Brussels is packed solid with people from a whole
variety of countries.
German is one of the less likely languages. Although it's an official
language of Belgium, that's only a sop thrown to a small handful of
German speakers right at the edge of the country.

Yes, they may as well give it back.
That's just what the Dutch did with the (minute) parts of Germany
that they acquired after 1945.

The whole idea that you gain 'compensation'
for damages done to you in a war by annexing
some villages where people don't speak your language
is more than a bit ludicrous.

BTW, the Belgians did try to annex
a significant part of the Netherlands in 1919.
(because the Dutch had had the good sense to remain neutral)
They didn't succeed.
The Dutch said that they would fight, and the Allies refused
to start another war for no other purpose than to enlarge Belgium,

Jan

Kerr-Mudd, John

2024-06-09 11:43:01 UTC

On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 12:48:10 +0200

Indeed. The Dutch even started a minor language war by
subtitling a Flemish TV series. The Belgians of course
retaliated by subtitling Dutch ones.

Retaliate? Did it use to be customary to exclude Walloons?

I once went to a movie in Brussels that was subtitled in about
six languages. A good idea, but it took a lot of screen space.

Six? I cannot imagine what the fifth or sixth could be? French,
Flemish, Dutch, English, and what else?

It's a distant memory, so I can't be certain. Probably German,
Italian, and Spanish.

German, maybe. Was the original film in Albanian? </smile>

Let's remember that Brussels is packed solid with people from a whole
variety of countries.
German is one of the less likely languages. Although it's an official
language of Belgium, that's only a sop thrown to a small handful of
German speakers right at the edge of the country.

Yes, they may as well give it back.
That's just what the Dutch did with the (minute) parts of Germany
that they acquired after 1945.
The whole idea that you gain 'compensation'
for damages done to you in a war by annexing
some villages where people don't speak your language
is more than a bit ludicrous.
BTW, the Belgians did try to annex
a significant part of the Netherlands in 1919.
(because the Dutch had had the good sense to remain neutral)
They didn't succeed.
The Dutch said that they would fight, and the Allies refused
to start another war for no other purpose than to enlarge Belgium,

AIUI you have some quite complicated border in places, with some bits of a
town being split in (ISTM) a fairly haphazard way; a field here, one side
of the road there.

Aha!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle_nassau

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

J. J. Lodder

2024-06-04 08:54:56 UTC

Post by occam
<snip>

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

Mais ils sont bien averti,

Jan

Peter Moylan

2024-06-04 10:37:50 UTC

Post by Hibou
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui
parle deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une
langue est anglais » - Claude Gagnière.

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

That is why Canada, or at least Quebec, has had so many problems over
language. It was settled by precisely the two groups who are most
intolerant of other people's languages.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

occam

2024-06-04 11:17:05 UTC

Post by Hibou
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui
parle deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une
langue est anglais » - Claude Gagnière.

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

That is why Canada, or at least Quebec, has had so many problems over
language. It was settled by precisely the two groups who are most
intolerant of other people's languages.

Ah, if only the quebecois knew how much the French detest their version
of French. They would stop it instantly.

Chris Elvidge

2024-06-04 12:53:39 UTC

Post by Hibou
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui
parle deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une
langue est anglais » - Claude Gagnière.

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

That is why Canada, or at least Quebec, has had so many problems over
language. It was settled by precisely the two groups who are most
intolerant of other people's languages.

Ah, if only the quebecois knew how much the French detest their version
of French. They would stop it instantly.

IMHO they do; they won't!

--
Chris Elvidge, England
FUNNY NOISES ARE NOT FUNNY

Peter Moylan

2024-06-04 12:55:33 UTC

Post by Hibou
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui
parle deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une
langue est anglais » - Claude Gagnière.

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism
either.

That is why Canada, or at least Quebec, has had so many problems
over language. It was settled by precisely the two groups who are
most intolerant of other people's languages.

Ah, if only the quebecois knew how much the French detest their
version of French. They would stop it instantly.

AUE used to have a RR who was apparently fluent in français québecois.
(I'd tell you his name, but for the moment I'm suffering from a mental
block.) His comments on vowel qualities helped me to understand the
lyrics of some songs. Consider, for example, "Un canadien errant" as
sung by Leonard Cohen. One of the verses has

Ô jours si pleins d’appas
Vous êtes dispareux,
Et ma patrie, hélas!
Je ne la verrai pleux

The two mysterious words there make sense once you understand the vowel
shifts.

The word "un" in that song is also interesting. To pronounce it
correctly, you have to imagine yourself, constipated, straining at the
toilet. If you think the Parisian "un" is ugly, the Canadian one goes
one step further.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

jerryfriedman

2024-06-04 13:33:58 UTC

Post by Hibou
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui
parle deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une
langue est anglais » - Claude Gagnière.

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism
either.

That is why Canada, or at least Quebec, has had so many problems
over language. It was settled by precisely the two groups who are
most intolerant of other people's languages.

Ah, if only the quebecois knew how much the French detest their
version of French. They would stop it instantly.

AUE used to have a RR who was apparently fluent in français québecois.
(I'd tell you his name, but for the moment I'm suffering from a mental
block.)

..

Charles Bellemare, CDB. I hope he's all right.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter Moylan

2024-06-08 14:47:20 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
AUE used to have a RR who was apparently fluent in français
québecois. (I'd tell you his name, but for the moment I'm suffering
from a mental block.)

Charles Bellemare, CDB. I hope he's all right.

He was, IIRC, quite a bit older than many of us, so it's not surprising
that he's dropped out of the group.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-06-04 13:35:11 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
[ … ]
That is why Canada, or at least Quebec, has had so many problems over
language. It was settled by precisely the two groups who are most
intolerant of other people's languages.

Ah, if only the quebecois knew how much the French detest their version
of French. They would stop it instantly.

"Detest" is a bit strong! But they're not fond of it. Many years ago
when I first knew of Céline Dion I was struck by the fact that her sung
French sounded completely standard, but when she spoke her Québecois
accent stuck out like sore thumb.

Earlier than that we used to watch a children's programme with our
daughter called Bibi et Geneviève. Bibi was a puppet, but Geneviève was
a real person (played by an actress called Sophie Dansereau). I found
her accent very weird, and not unattractive, but at that time I didn't
realize it was Québecois.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Peter Moylan

2024-06-08 14:51:16 UTC

Post by occam
Ah, if only the quebecois knew how much the French detest their
version of French. They would stop it instantly.

"Detest" is a bit strong! But they're not fond of it. Many years ago
when I first knew of Céline Dion I was struck by the fact that her
sung French sounded completely standard, but when she spoke her
Québecois accent stuck out like sore thumb.
Earlier than that we used to watch a children's programme with our
daughter called Bibi et Geneviève. Bibi was a puppet, but Geneviève
was a real person (played by an actress called Sophie Dansereau). I
found her accent very weird, and not unattractive, but at that time I
didn't realize it was Québecois.

One of my earliest experiences in Montreal was being approached by a
beggar on the street. He was trying very hard to speak English, and I
was trying equally hard to speak French, and neither of us could
understand the other.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

occam

2024-06-08 15:13:56 UTC

Post by occam
Ah, if only the quebecois knew how much the French detest their
version of French. They would stop it instantly.

"Detest" is a bit strong! But they're not fond of it. Many years ago
when I first knew of Céline Dion I was struck by the fact that her
sung French sounded completely standard, but when she spoke her
Québecois accent stuck out like sore thumb.
Earlier than that we used to watch a children's programme with our
daughter called Bibi et Geneviève. Bibi was a puppet, but Geneviève
was a real person (played by an actress called Sophie Dansereau). I
found her accent very weird, and not unattractive, but at that time I
didn't realize it was Québecois.

You were both using the same currency though, right?

Long before the globalisation lark took hold of Europe - washing
machines came with 8 different language packs - there was one business
that was totally global. That was Interflora. You flashed a credit card
in Brussels, and someone in Palermo got the flowers.

Chris Elvidge

2024-06-08 15:37:19 UTC

Post by occam
Ah, if only the quebecois knew how much the French detest their
version of French. They would stop it instantly.

"Detest" is a bit strong! But they're not fond of it. Many years ago
when I first knew of Céline Dion I was struck by the fact that her
sung French sounded completely standard, but when she spoke her
Québecois accent stuck out like sore thumb.
Earlier than that we used to watch a children's programme with our
daughter called Bibi et Geneviève. Bibi was a puppet, but Geneviève
was a real person (played by an actress called Sophie Dansereau). I
found her accent very weird, and not unattractive, but at that time I
didn't realize it was Québecois.

You were both using the same currency though, right?
Long before the globalisation lark took hold of Europe - washing
machines came with 8 different language packs - there was one business
that was totally global. That was Interflora. You flashed a credit card
in Brussels, and someone in Palermo got the flowers.

One strange thing about Interflora. Went into a shop in Dubai to send
some flowers back to England. I was charged Dubai prices (v. expensive
for cut flowers as they were/are imported). Later I found I could
telephone order from the Interflora shop in Oldham and only pay UK
prices. Next time, I did just that.

--
Chris Elvidge, England
THE FIRST AMENDMENT DOES NOT COVER BURPING

J. J. Lodder

2024-06-09 12:49:37 UTC

Post by occam
Ah, if only the quebecois knew how much the French detest their
version of French. They would stop it instantly.

"Detest" is a bit strong! But they're not fond of it. Many years ago
when I first knew of Céline Dion I was struck by the fact that her
sung French sounded completely standard, but when she spoke her
Québecois accent stuck out like sore thumb.
Earlier than that we used to watch a children's programme with our
daughter called Bibi et Geneviève. Bibi was a puppet, but Geneviève
was a real person (played by an actress called Sophie Dansereau). I
found her accent very weird, and not unattractive, but at that time I
didn't realize it was Québecois.

You were both using the same currency though, right?
Long before the globalisation lark took hold of Europe - washing
machines came with 8 different language packs - there was one business
that was totally global. That was Interflora. You flashed a credit card
in Brussels, and someone in Palermo got the flowers.

More than a hundred years old, from well before credit cards,
before international telephone networks even.
Originally they did their business by telegram.

Hard to imagine what Europe could have been like,
if the stupidity of two world wars hadn't spoilt almost everything,

Jan

lar3ryca

2024-06-04 16:58:50 UTC

Post by Hibou
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui
parle deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une
langue est anglais » - Claude Gagnière.

I like that last one. It smacks of French anti-Englishism.
The French are not exactly renown for their multilingualism either.

That is why Canada, or at least Quebec, has had so many problems over
language. It was settled by precisely the two groups who are most
intolerant of other people's languages.

Strangely enough, the only province in Canada that is officially
bilingual is New Brunswick. Quebec's official language is French, and
all the remaining provinces, English.

--
Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana.

HenHanna

2024-06-04 20:07:06 UTC

There are traces of it in different forms, and it may be an African
« Un homme qui parle une langue vaut un homme ; un homme qui parle deux
langues vaut deux hommes ; un homme qui en parle trois vaut toute
l'humanité. »
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui parle
deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une langue est
anglais » --------- Claude Gagnière.

was he not French? was he Belgian? Swiss?

Limited Multilingualism: Historically, France emphasized national
unity and French as the unifying language. This means multilingualism
isn't as widespread as in some other European countries.

Multilingual country: Belgium has three official languages: French,
Dutch (Flemish), and German.

Regional distribution: French is spoken in the southern Wallonia
region, Dutch (Flemish) is spoken in the northern Flanders region, and
German is spoken by a small minority in the east. The Brussels-Capital
Region is officially bilingual (French and Dutch).

Language learning is encouraged: Due to the multilingual nature of
the country, people in some regions might be exposed to and have some
proficiency in more than one language. However, fluency in all three
official languages is not common.

Hibou

2024-06-05 05:14:09 UTC

Post by Hibou
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui parle
deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une langue est
anglais » --------- Claude Gagnière.

was he not French? was he Belgian? Swiss?

Il était français. He was French.

<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Gagni%C3%A8re>

Multilingual country: Belgium has three official languages: French,
Dutch (Flemish), and German. [...] However, fluency in all three
official languages is not common.

It may also be inadvisable for the ordinary Joe. Learning a language
takes much effort, which is not then available for other things. The
risk is that one ends up having nothing to say, while being able to say
it perfectly in three different languages.

J. J. Lodder

2024-06-05 11:23:53 UTC

Post by HenHanna

Post by Hibou
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui parle
deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une langue est
anglais » --------- Claude Gagnière.

was he not French? was he Belgian? Swiss?

Il était français. He was French.
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Gagni%C3%A8re>

Post by HenHanna
Multilingual country: Belgium has three official languages: French,
Dutch (Flemish), and German. [...] However, fluency in all three
official languages is not common.

It is three, but only marginally so.
The German speaking part was acquired after WWI,
as compensation for war damages. It is only a very small part.
The original Belgium was just Flemish and Walloon.

They have come a long way, after more than a century
of persistent attemps at languicide by the French half.
All schooling in Belgium was in French only,
and the Flemish were treated as second-rate citizens.
Resistance to all this led to 'De Taalstrijd' (the language war)

Nowadays all Belgians get obligatory education in 'that other language'
during all elementary education.
While they may not be fluent, they will at least be able
to understand each other, and to communicate in case of need,
(but they may prefer to use English instead)

Jan

occam

2024-06-07 08:52:03 UTC

Post by HenHanna

Post by Hibou
« Un homme qui parle trois langues est trilingue. Un homme qui parle
deux langues est bilingue. Un homme qui ne parle qu'une langue est
anglais » --------- Claude Gagnière.

was he not French? was he Belgian? Swiss?

Il était français. He was French.
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Gagni%C3%A8re>

Post by HenHanna
Multilingual country: Belgium has three official languages: French,
Dutch (Flemish), and German. [...] However, fluency in all three
official languages is not common.

It is three, but only marginally so.
The German speaking part was acquired after WWI,
as compensation for war damages. It is only a very small part.
The original Belgium was just Flemish and Walloon.
They have come a long way, after more than a century
of persistent attemps at languicide by the French half.
All schooling in Belgium was in French only,
and the Flemish were treated as second-rate citizens.
Resistance to all this led to 'De Taalstrijd' (the language war)
Nowadays all Belgians get obligatory education in 'that other language'
during all elementary education.
While they may not be fluent, they will at least be able
to understand each other, and to communicate in case of need,
(but they may prefer to use English instead)

I wonder whether, if you work for the government in Belgium, you are
required to know both. This is certainly the case in Luxembourg, where
you are required to be fluent in all three - German, French and
Luxembourgish - if you want a job in government. It is a good sorting
algorithm, to filter out French- and German-only speakers, who may
aspire to well-paid government posts.

Peter Moylan

2024-06-07 11:30:53 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder
Nowadays all Belgians get obligatory education in 'that other
language' during all elementary education. While they may not be
fluent, they will at least be able to understand each other, and to
communicate in case of need, (but they may prefer to use English
instead)

I wonder whether, if you work for the government in Belgium, you are
required to know both. This is certainly the case in Luxembourg,
where you are required to be fluent in all three - German, French
and Luxembourgish - if you want a job in government. It is a good
sorting algorithm, to filter out French- and German-only speakers,
who may aspire to well-paid government posts.

It's also the case in Brussels, I believe, although probably not in
other parts of Belgium.

I once had a run-in with an official at the Brussels south tram
terminus. I tried to help a tourist who had left his luggage on a tram.
The person behind the counter refused to help because I addressed him in
French rather than in Flemish. I'm pretty certain that he would have had
to be fluent in both languages to get that job.

The tourist was German, but I doubt that that would have helped. In my
experience, lots of Brussels people are fluent in French, Dutch, and
English, but are very weak in German, despite studying it at school.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

charles

2024-06-07 13:08:03 UTC

I wonder whether, if you work for the government in Belgium, you are
required to know both. This is certainly the case in Luxembourg,
where you are required to be fluent in all three - German, French
and Luxembourgish - if you want a job in government. It is a good
sorting algorithm, to filter out French- and German-only speakers,
who may aspire to well-paid government posts.

It's also the case in Brussels, I believe, although probably not in
other parts of Belgium.
I once had a run-in with an official at the Brussels south tram
terminus. I tried to help a tourist who had left his luggage on a tram.
The person behind the counter refused to help because I addressed him in
French rather than in Flemish. I'm pretty certain that he would have had
to be fluent in both languages to get that job.
The tourist was German, but I doubt that that would have helped. In my
experience, lots of Brussels people are fluent in French, Dutch, and
English, but are very weak in German, despite studying it at school.

Perhaps it's a Post-WW2 dislike of the Germans. I can recall (late 1950s)
at a Swiss>French border post a German car being to totally emptied at the
road side. My Swiss host told me that did happen frequently to German cars

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

J. J. Lodder

2024-06-07 15:47:19 UTC

I wonder whether, if you work for the government in Belgium, you are
required to know both. This is certainly the case in Luxembourg,
where you are required to be fluent in all three - German, French
and Luxembourgish - if you want a job in government. It is a good
sorting algorithm, to filter out French- and German-only speakers,
who may aspire to well-paid government posts.

It's also the case in Brussels, I believe, although probably not in
other parts of Belgium.
I once had a run-in with an official at the Brussels south tram
terminus. I tried to help a tourist who had left his luggage on a tram.
The person behind the counter refused to help because I addressed him in
French rather than in Flemish. I'm pretty certain that he would have had
to be fluent in both languages to get that job.
The tourist was German, but I doubt that that would have helped. In my
experience, lots of Brussels people are fluent in French, Dutch, and
English, but are very weak in German, despite studying it at school.

Post-WW II? The Belgians had more than enough reason for disliking
Germans already with the start of WW I,

Jan

Peter Moylan

2024-06-08 15:05:36 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
The tourist was German, but I doubt that that would have helped. In
my experience, lots of Brussels people are fluent in French, Dutch,
and English, but are very weak in German, despite studying it at
school.

Perhaps it's a Post-WW2 dislike of the Germans. I can recall (late
1950s) at a Swiss>French border post a German car being to totally
emptied at the road side. My Swiss host told me that did happen
frequently to German cars

That's part of the reason, but there's also the fact that the German
speakers are an insignificant part of the population. The
German-speaking region is a small area along the Belgian-German border.
It wouldn't even be part of Belgium if Germany hadn't lost the past two
wars.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-06-08 16:36:51 UTC

Perhaps it's a Post-WW2 dislike of the Germans. I can recall (late
1950s) at a Swiss>French border post a German car being to totally
emptied at the road side. My Swiss host told me that did happen
frequently to German cars

Once in Malmedy we stopped somewhere for lunch and I unwisely asked if
people spoke German there. They were quite offended. Apparently it's
only in Eupen that German is prominent. Malmedy looks typically
Belgian, but Eupen looks very German.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

J. J. Lodder

2024-06-09 10:48:11 UTC

Perhaps it's a Post-WW2 dislike of the Germans. I can recall (late
1950s) at a Swiss>French border post a German car being to totally
emptied at the road side. My Swiss host told me that did happen
frequently to German cars

The pre-1918 border was worked out in tedious negotions
between the Dutch, the English, and the Prussians. (Vienna 1815)
The English had decided that they wanted an united Netherlands,
and the Prussians wanted to control as much territory
as they could grab.
The (then prince) of Orange played hard to get
in order to get as much as he could.

The inhabitants were not asked about their opinions.
Nevertheless, by 1918 the situation was well settled,
and there really wasn't a good reason (except for petty revenge-taking)
to 'correct' the Belgian-German border by
telling some speakers of German that they were Belgians, really,

Jan

wugi

2024-06-05 10:26:14 UTC

Old joke here. Of course the clou hereabouts runs rather "... is a
Francophone".

(...)
Multilingual country:   Belgium has three official languages: French,
Dutch (Flemish), and German.
Regional distribution:   French is spoken in the southern Wallonia
region, Dutch (Flemish) is spoken in the northern Flanders region, and
German is spoken by a small minority in the east. The Brussels-Capital
Region is officially bilingual (French and Dutch).
Language learning is encouraged:    Due to the multilingual nature of
the country, people in some regions might be exposed to and have some
proficiency in more than one language. However, fluency in all three
official languages is not common.

In practice: when in a group there is one Francophone, everyone defaults
to conversing in French. When a Fleming resides in Wallonia they'll
speak French. When a francophone resides in Flanders they'll speak French.
The large periphery around Brussels is loosing rapidly its Flemish
character. Creeping (at times running) Francisation is still going on
now, largely ignored by politics (even the nationalists), but a source
of irritation to a dwindling portion of the local populace, like me :o)

--
guido wugi

Peter Moylan

2024-06-08 14:35:45 UTC

Post by HenHanna
If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his
head. If you talk to him in his own language, that goes to his
heart.

At various times I have been in places where my command of the local
language was somewhere between zero and negligible. That must happen to
anyone who has done a bit of travelling. How does one deal with this?

One approach is that of the obnoxious tourist who speaks in English very
loudly. (Only English speakers do this, for some reason.) The
assumption, I presume, is that anyone who can't understand him must be deaf.

My own approach is meek. I avoid saying anything at all. Where that is
not possible, I'll at least make sure to work out how to say "Do you
speak English or French?" in the local language, those being the two
languages where I can get by. (Special case: I have worked out how to
say "I don't speak X" for a number of different values of X.) If you
can't speak a language, most people appreciate that you've at least made
an effort.

(Exception: if you say that to a Dutch speaker, you get one of two
responses, in my experience. The first is "Maar U spreekt Nederlands,
meneer". (If you can say that much with a good Dutch accent, you must be
fully fluent in Dutch.) The other is a very offended "Of course I speak
English". How dare you suggest that I'm so uneducated that I can't speak
your language?)

One place where I felt completely lost was in Seoul. I knew no Korean,
and nobody there spoke English. (This has since changed, I gather.) I
couldn't even guess what the street signs said, although I did get as
far as figuring out that the writing was a phonetic syllabary. On
initial arrival, I had a card with name of my hotel written in Korean,
and I compared that with the sign on the front of each arriving bus.
From that experience, I have a lot of sympathy for people who are in a
country whose language is totally foreign to them. At least I can read
the street names anywhere in western Europe.

(Exception: the Irish don't believe in giving names to roads, so there
aren't any street signs.)

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

jerryfriedman

2024-06-08 16:28:08 UTC

Post by HenHanna
If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his
head. If you talk to him in his own language, that goes to his heart.

..

Saying "I don't speak Dutch" in Dutch with an obviously foreign accent
might be a good strategy.

--
Jerry Friedman wouldn't have a choice.

J. J. Lodder

2024-06-09 10:48:11 UTC

Post by HenHanna
If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his
head. If you talk to him in his own language, that goes to his heart.

..
Saying "I don't speak Dutch" in Dutch with an obviously foreign accent
might be a good strategy.

There really is no need for that,

Jan

Kerr-Mudd, John

2024-06-08 21:16:29 UTC

On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 00:35:45 +1000
Peter Moylan <***@pmoylan.org> wrote:

[]

Post by Peter Moylan
(Exception: the Irish don't believe in giving names to roads, so there
aren't any street signs.)

It's worst than that, IME, some roads (OK just one but it really got to
me) go nowhere; a major jn in Wexford has a road heading west,
inland,with sign showing Hospital and other things makes it look just
what I wanted; after a passing the hospital it gets smaller, and after (5?)
miles ends at a private farm!

Other times the OS maps are from pre-independence (so about close to a
century out-of-date) and include tracks to fords or bridges that are no
longer useable.

xposts removed

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Tony Cooper

2024-06-09 01:15:02 UTC

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Sun, 9 Jun 2024 00:35:45 +1000
[]

Post by Peter Moylan
(Exception: the Irish don't believe in giving names to roads, so there
aren't any street signs.)

On our first trip to Ireland, driving south from Ennis we picked up a
hitchhiker. Our hitchhiker was an elderly woman who was on her way to
visit her sister "in hospital".

Being aware of the Irish usage of "in hospital" (compared the US usage
of "in the hospital"), we commiserated and asked how her sister was
doing. Our passenger seemed surprised at the question, and said her
sister was in good health and quite fine.

The sister livesd in Hospital (County Limerick). We quite enjoyed our
hitchhiker's company and ended up taking her to Hospital (a bit off
our route) and to her sister's cottage.

The village is so-named because the Knights Hospitallers built a
church there is 1215. We drove by the location, but there's nothing
there but some ruins.

It was quite common when we were there (1969) to see hitchhikers. We
picked up a man near Wexford who also turned out to be good company.
When we got to his house, he invited us in to meet his wife and
greyhounds (dogs). His wife brought us tea and Ritz crackers. Trying
to balance teacups and a saucer of crackers while three large dogs are
giving one a thourough sniffing is quite a trick.

The wife asked if we'd ever met Jack Kennedy, and we had to admit that
we hadn't. They had seen him (from a distance) when he was there in
1963. (JFK's paternal ancestors were from County Wexford)

Christian Weisgerber

2024-06-08 21:19:29 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
At various times I have been in places where my command of the local
language was somewhere between zero and negligible. That must happen to
anyone who has done a bit of travelling. How does one deal with this?

Personally, I bulldoze through in English. That has worked quite
well, but, English-majority countries aside, my travel has admittedly
been limited to major cities and locations of tourism and higher
education. I would expect poor results when, say, backpacking
through the Andes.

Post by Peter Moylan
My own approach is meek. I avoid saying anything at all. Where that is
not possible, I'll at least make sure to work out how to say "Do you
speak English or French?" in the local language,

You can shortcut that by simply speaking English (or French) right
away.

Post by Peter Moylan
(Special case: I have worked out how to say "I don't speak X" for
a number of different values of X.)

I once replied "no hablo español" when addressed in Spanish in the
street in Miami, but it's pragmatically weird, since it seems to
be a self-contradictory statement. Also, if you don't speak the
language, your utterance may well come out unintelligible.

--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de

Peter Moylan

2024-06-09 00:30:03 UTC

(Special case: I have worked out how to say "I don't speak X" for a
number of different values of X.)

I once replied "no hablo español" when addressed in Spanish in the
street in Miami, but it's pragmatically weird, since it seems to be a
self-contradictory statement. Also, if you don't speak the language,
your utterance may well come out unintelligible.

Once, when I was a child, I was left to wait in the local priest's
living room while my parents had business with him. I saw that he had a
"Learn Italian" record, so I played it. The record immediately went into
teaching you, by frequent repetition, to say "Io parlo Italiano". Even at
that young age I could see the flaw in that approach. The first lesson
should have been "Non parlo italiano".

"Buongiorno. Mi puoi indicare la fermata dell'autobus?"
"Io Parlo italiano."
"Bene. Dov'è la fermata dell'autobus?"
"Io Parlo italiano."

The only time I was in Italy I had a more practical approach. I had
purchased a bus ticket at the railway station, but when I came out of
the station I couldn't see any sign for a bus. So I approached a small
group of men, held out my ticket, and said "Dov'è?". One of them pointed
to the ground and said "Qui." Perfect communication!

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

jerryfriedman

2024-06-09 01:56:32 UTC

(Special case: I have worked out how to say "I don't speak X" for a
number of different values of X.)

I once replied "no hablo español" when addressed in Spanish in the
street in Miami, but it's pragmatically weird, since it seems to be a
self-contradictory statement. Also, if you don't speak the language,
your utterance may well come out unintelligible.

Once, when I was a child, I was left to wait in the local priest's
living room while my parents had business with him. I saw that he had a
"Learn Italian" record,

Was he expecting a significant promotion?

Post by Peter Moylan
so I played it. The record immediately went into
teaching you, by frequent repetition, to say "Io parlo Italiano". Even at
that young age I could see the flaw in that approach. The first lesson
should have been "Non parlo italiano".
"Buongiorno. Mi puoi indicare la fermata dell'autobus?"
"Io Parlo italiano."
"Bene. Dov'è la fermata dell'autobus?"
"Io Parlo italiano."
The only time I was in Italy I had a more practical approach. I had
purchased a bus ticket at the railway station, but when I came out of
the station I couldn't see any sign for a bus. So I approached a small
group of men, held out my ticket, and said "Dov'è?". One of them pointed
to the ground and said "Qui." Perfect communication!

And without any risk of your Italian being overestimated. But are
you sure you didn't say "Dove"?

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter Moylan

2024-06-09 04:05:15 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
Once, when I was a child, I was left to wait in the local priest's
living room while my parents had business with him. I saw that he
had a "Learn Italian" record,

Was he expecting a significant promotion?

Not much chance of that. In fact he might have been the one who, years
later, was convicted of molesting altar boys. (I too was an altar boy,
but apparently not attractive enough, so I didn't know what was going on.)

Our town had a lot of post-war immigrants, and Italians were in the
majority. The younger ones quickly learnt English, but many of their
parents never did.

Post by Peter Moylan
The only time I was in Italy I had a more practical approach. I had
purchased a bus ticket at the railway station, but when I came out
of the station I couldn't see any sign for a bus. So I approached a
small group of men, held out my ticket, and said "Dov'è?". One of
them pointed to the ground and said "Qui." Perfect communication!

And without any risk of your Italian being overestimated. But are
you sure you didn't say "Dove"?

I'm not sure how I learnt that word, but I did know that it had two
syllables.

As a student at Melbourne University, I was living right next to an
Italian-speaking area, so I picked up a few Italian words by osmosis. In
fact I needed some of those words for shopping. The shop doors said "Si
parle inglese", but they lied.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

jerryfriedman

2024-06-09 12:53:56 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
Once, when I was a child, I was left to wait in the local priest's
living room while my parents had business with him. I saw that he
had a "Learn Italian" record,

Was he expecting a significant promotion?

Not much chance of that. In fact he might have been the one who, years
later, was convicted of molesting altar boys. (I too was an altar boy,
but apparently not attractive enough, so I didn't know what was going on.)
Our town had a lot of post-war immigrants, and Italians were in the
majority. The younger ones quickly learnt English, but many of their
parents never did.

Ah, makes perfect sense.

And without any risk of your Italian being overestimated. But are
you sure you didn't say "Dove"?

I'm not sure how I learnt that word, but I did know that it had two
syllables.

What word? As far as I know, Italian "dove" is pronounced exactly
like "Dov'è".

Post by Peter Moylan
As a student at Melbourne University, I was living right next to an
Italian-speaking area, so I picked up a few Italian words by osmosis. In
fact I needed some of those words for shopping. The shop doors said "Si
parle inglese", but they lied.

That's remarkable. They couldn't hire somebody, maybe a younger
family member, who spoke English?

Also an "English spoken here" sign would have been more convincing.

--
Jerry Friedman

Silvano

2024-06-09 13:40:23 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
I'm not sure how I learnt that word, but I did know that it had two
syllables.

What word? As far as I know, Italian "dove" is pronounced exactly
like "Dov'è".

I know better, as I should when we talk about my native language.

Dove - spoken accent on "o".
Dov'è (actually two words fused together: "dove è", but we never
separate the two "e") - spoken accent on "e".
I won't elaborate on the openness and closeness of the "e".

jerryfriedman

2024-06-09 17:19:31 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
I'm not sure how I learnt that word, but I did know that it had two
syllables.

What word? As far as I know, Italian "dove" is pronounced exactly
like "Dov'è".

I know better, as I should when we talk about my native language.
Dove - spoken accent on "o".
Dov'è (actually two words fused together: "dove è", but we never
separate the two "e") - spoken accent on "e".
I won't elaborate on the openness and closeness of the "e".

Thanks. An interesting difference, since in English we don't usually
accent the "is" in "Where is", unless it's followed by a personal
pronoun or for emphasis.

--
Jerry Friedman

Peter Moylan

2024-06-09 13:53:18 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
The only time I was in Italy I had a more practical approach. I
had purchased a bus ticket at the railway station, but when I
came out of the station I couldn't see any sign for a bus. So I
approached a small group of men, held out my ticket, and said
"Dov'è?". One of them pointed to the ground and said "Qui."
Perfect communication!

And without any risk of your Italian being overestimated. But
are you sure you didn't say "Dove"?

I'm not sure how I learnt that word, but I did know that it had
two syllables.

What word? As far as I know, Italian "dove" is pronounced exactly
like "Dov'è".

OK, I didn't (and still don't) know enough Italian to understand your
point. But, as Silvano pointed out, it didn't matter anyway.

Post by Peter Moylan
As a student at Melbourne University, I was living right next to
an Italian-speaking area, so I picked up a few Italian words by
osmosis. In fact I needed some of those words for shopping. The
shop doors said "Si parle inglese", but they lied.

That's remarkable. They couldn't hire somebody, maybe a younger
family member, who spoke English?
Also an "English spoken here" sign would have been more convincing.

Yes, that always amused me. They apparently didn't know enough English
to be able to write the sign in English. And most of the time it didn't
matter, because so many of their customers understood Italian.

Your mention of a younger family member reminds me of a time I was
driving around an agricultural part of California, basically just to get
a feel for the country. (Actually, that was the trip when I got a kick
from discovering Cannery Row.) When it was time to have some lunch, I
found a cantina in the middle of nowhere, but discovered that nobody
there understood English. No problem. The owner sent for his daughter,
and she explained to us how to order a meal.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Silvano

2024-06-09 09:38:31 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
The only time I was in Italy I had a more practical approach. I had
purchased a bus ticket at the railway station, but when I came out of
the station I couldn't see any sign for a bus. So I approached a small
group of men, held out my ticket, and said "Dov'è?". One of them pointed
to the ground and said "Qui." Perfect communication!

And without any risk of your Italian being overestimated. But are
you sure you didn't say "Dove"?

Both are possible and understandable in that context.
Dove = Where? Where what, you could ask, but holding a bus ticket in his
hand made the meaning clear.
Dov'è = Where is it? Which "it", you could ask, but holding a bus ticket
in his hand made the meaning clear.

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-06-09 08:02:17 UTC

One of my daughters and her daughter went on a hike earlier this year
along the Inca Trail to Macchu Pichu. She doesn't speak any Spanish
(unlike my youngest daughter), or Quechua, for that matter, but she
found that English was enough. Of course, if she had wandered off the
path it would probably have been different.

You can shortcut that by simply speaking English (or French) right
away.

Post by Peter Moylan
(Special case: I have worked out how to say "I don't speak X" for
a number of different values of X.)

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Tony Cooper

2024-06-09 01:39:37 UTC

Post by HenHanna
If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his
head. If you talk to him in his own language, that goes to his heart.

I am so monolingual that I was identified as an American after saying
only "Zwei bier" in a crowded pub in Germany.

One way I coped in restaurants was casually strolling around noticing
what other patrons were being served, and telling the waiter "We'll
have what those people over there are having" and pointing to a table
where something looked good.

When we were in Europe in the early 1970s, not as many natives spoke
English as we found on later trips. In Germany, I got a bad case of
athlete's foot (tinea pedis) from wearing wet shoes. In the US, I
could buy a tube of Desenex and clear it up quickly. It was a major
problem finding a comparable product in Munich in 1972. Google was
not available to tell me the German term for "athlete's foot".

There was a young couple (of unknown nationality to me) taking
photographs of each other at the Olympic grounds. I offered - by hand
motions - to use their camera to take a photo of both of them
together.

They interpreted my gestures to mean I was intent on stealing their
camera, and started shouting for the police. At least, whatever they
were shouting sounded like a call for the cops.

Peter Moylan

2024-06-09 04:16:28 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Moylan
At various times I have been in places where my command of the
local language was somewhere between zero and negligible. That must
happen to anyone who has done a bit of travelling. How does one
deal with this?

When my wife and I were in the south of France, only a few years ago, we
decided to visit the Dali museum in Figueres. (Northern Spain.) (An
excellent museum to visit, by the way.) When we went to lunch, I coped
with the language problem by going to the menu board and writing down a
couple of things that looked promising. When the waiter came I handed
him the bit of paper.

This worked well, except that I did end up uttering a few words, and I
said "con" when I should have said "amb". (My knowledge of Catalan was
zero.) This made the waiter think I was one of the southern enemy, so he
was a bit cold to us after that.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-06-09 08:17:44 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Moylan
At various times I have been in places where my command of the
local language was somewhere between zero and negligible. That must
happen to anyone who has done a bit of travelling. How does one
deal with this?

When my wife and I were in the south of France, only a few years ago, we
decided to visit the Dali museum in Figueres. (Northern Spain.) (An
excellent museum to visit, by the way.) When we went to lunch, I coped
with the language problem by going to the menu board and writing down a
couple of things that looked promising. When the waiter came I handed
him the bit of paper.
This worked well, except that I did end up uttering a few words, and I
said "con" when I should have said "amb". (My knowledge of Catalan was
zero.) This made the waiter think I was one of the southern enemy, so he
was a bit cold to us after that.

"Amb" is a very common word in Catalan. It's apparently cognate with
French "avec", but one wouldn't guess that. It's pronounced m (əm).

Once we were taken to lunch in a restaurant in Tarragona, and the wife
of our host actually apologized to the waiter for speaking to us in
Spanish -- these poor ignorant foreigners can't speak Catalan.

Valencian is not identical to Catalan, but it's very close, to the
extent that their speakers can easily converse with one another. I
asked someone in Valencia if Valencia would want to join an independent
Catalonia. Good heavens no, I was told, being bossed around by people
in Barcelona would be worse than being bossed around by people in
Madrid.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Paul Carmichael

2024-06-09 09:34:27 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Valencian is not identical to Catalan, but it's very close, to the
extent that their speakers can easily converse with one another. I asked
someone in Valencia if Valencia would want to join an independent
Catalonia. Good heavens no, I was told, being bossed around by people in
Barcelona would be worse than being bossed around by people in Madrid.

I expect you probably know, but there is no bossing around. The level of
autonomy enjoyed by the regions often surprises people.

The catalan independence movement is not what most people think it is.

Damn! I'm out of here...

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-06-09 15:38:01 UTC

Post by Paul Carmichael

I expect you probably know, but there is no bossing around.

Well, I was just reporting what he said (though he may have said
"patronized" rather than "bossed about").

Post by Paul Carmichael
The level of
autonomy enjoyed by the regions often surprises people.

Yes, after several trips to Tenerife I know that the Canary Islands
Government has much more autonomy than, say, the Région
Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur.

Post by Paul Carmichael
The catalan independence movement is not what most people think it is.
Damn! I'm out of here...

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Ross Clark

2024-06-09 10:29:59 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Peter Moylan
At various times I have been in places where my command of the
local language was somewhere between zero and negligible. That must
happen to anyone who has done a bit of travelling. How does one
deal with this?

When my wife and I were in the south of France, only a few years ago, we
decided to visit the Dali museum in Figueres. (Northern Spain.) (An
excellent museum to visit, by the way.) When we went to lunch, I coped
with the language problem by going to the menu board and writing down a
couple of things that looked promising. When the waiter came I handed
him the bit of paper.
This worked well, except that I did end up uttering a few words, and I
said "con" when I should have said "amb". (My knowledge of Catalan was
zero.) This made the waiter think I was one of the southern enemy, so he
was a bit cold to us after that.

"Amb" is a very common word in Catalan. It's apparently cognate with
French "avec", but one wouldn't guess that. It's pronounced m (əm).

Semi-cognate? amb < ab < apud, avec < apud-hoc ('with that')

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Once we were taken to lunch in a restaurant in Tarragona, and the wife
of our host actually apologized to the waiter for speaking to us in
Spanish -- these poor ignorant foreigners can't speak Catalan.
Valencian is not identical to Catalan, but it's very close, to the
extent that their speakers can easily converse with one another. I asked
someone in Valencia if Valencia would want to join an independent
Catalonia. Good heavens no, I was told, being bossed around by people in
Barcelona would be worse than being bossed around by people in Madrid.

Paul Carmichael

2024-06-09 12:19:09 UTC

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
"Amb" is a very common word in Catalan. It's apparently cognate with
French "avec", but one wouldn't guess that. It's pronounced m (əm).

I can't help thinking of the Latin amb (both). But I know nothing of the
languages derived from Occitan and whether they are even related to Latin.

And it seems that it mostly refers to: https://www.amb.cat/s/home.html
annyhoo.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

Silvano

2024-06-09 13:53:41 UTC

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
"Amb" is a very common word in Catalan. It's apparently cognate with
French "avec", but one wouldn't guess that. It's pronounced m (əm).

I can't help thinking of the Latin amb (both). But I know nothing of the
languages derived from Occitan and whether they are even related to Latin.

Occitan and Catalan are Romance languages, i. e. descendants of Latin,
like the more widespread French and Spanish.

As a joke:
Occitan would be the main language of France, if the kings of France had
established their capital in Marseille.
Catalan would be the main language of Spain, if Ferdinand of Aragon had
been more assertive when he married Isabella of Castile and moved the
capital of the unified Spain to Valencia or Barcelona.

Hibou

2024-06-09 09:56:54 UTC