Indian chat English

[Hibou]

This morning:

Moi: I've had an e-mail reminding me to collect this order, but I
collected it on Thursday.

Agent with Indian name: I'm sorry to hear that you have received an
email that states to collect the item from the locker¹ when you have
already collect it....


I had an Indian agent on the phone a while back, and his English was of
this sort too - rapid, but peculiarly long-winded. It annoyed me enough
that I complained about it and asked him to make things short and simple
- and that in turn annoyed him.

I find it puzzling. These agents don't seem at ease in English, so I
don't think it can be their native language; and when working in a
second language, isn't the usual impulse to pare things to essentials?


¹Not a locker, a counter. I expect the lassie just forgot to scan the
barcode.

[occam]

Post by Hibou
Moi: I've had an e-mail reminding me to collect this order, but I
collected it on Thursday.
Agent with Indian name: I'm sorry to hear that you have received an
email that states to collect the item from the locker¹ when you have
already collect it....
I had an Indian agent on the phone a while back, and his English was of
this sort too - rapid, but peculiarly long-winded. It annoyed me enough
that I complained about it and asked him to make things short and simple
- and that in turn annoyed him.

You say 'long-winded', I say 'flowery'. (Too many petals.) I believe it
is cultural, influenced by another language.

Do you know if your agent was based in the UK, or in India? My bet is
the latter.

[Hibou]

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
Moi: I've had an e-mail reminding me to collect this order, but I
collected it on Thursday.
Agent with Indian name: I'm sorry to hear that you have received an
email that states to collect the item from the locker¹ when you have
already collect it....
I had an Indian agent on the phone a while back, and his English was of
this sort too - rapid, but peculiarly long-winded. It annoyed me enough
that I complained about it and asked him to make things short and simple
- and that in turn annoyed him.

You say 'long-winded', I say 'flowery'. (Too many petals.) I believe it
is cultural, influenced by another language.

Could be.

Post by occam
Do you know if your agent was based in the UK, or in India? My bet is
the latter.

I'd bet on India too. The exchange was just before six this morning (I'm
a bit matinal). Not much was awake in Britain, and India is five hours
ahead of us.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Hibou

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
Moi: I've had an e-mail reminding me to collect this order, but I
collected it on Thursday.
Agent with Indian name: I'm sorry to hear that you have received an
email that states to collect the item from the locker¹ when you have
already collect it....
I had an Indian agent on the phone a while back, and his English was of
this sort too - rapid, but peculiarly long-winded. It annoyed me enough
that I complained about it and asked him to make things short and simple
- and that in turn annoyed him.

You say 'long-winded', I say 'flowery'. (Too many petals.) I believe it
is cultural, influenced by another language.

Could be.

Post by occam
Do you know if your agent was based in the UK, or in India? My bet is
the latter.

I'd bet on India too. The exchange was just before six this morning (I'm
a bit matinal). Not much was awake in Britain, and India is five hours
ahead of us.

Half an hour out?

[Hibou]

Post by Chris Elvidge

Post by Hibou

Post by occam
You say 'long-winded', I say 'flowery'. (Too many petals.) I believe it
is cultural, influenced by another language.

Could be.

Post by occam
Do you know if your agent was based in the UK, or in India? My bet is
the latter.

I'd bet on India too. The exchange was just before six this morning
(I'm a bit matinal). Not much was awake in Britain, and India is five
hours ahead of us.

Half an hour out?

You're right. Five and a half hours.

[Bertietaylor]

Post by Hibou
Moi: I've had an e-mail reminding me to collect this order, but I
collected it on Thursday.
Agent with Indian name: I'm sorry to hear that you have received an
email that states to collect the item from the locker¹ when you have
already collect it....
I had an Indian agent on the phone a while back, and his English was of
this sort too - rapid, but peculiarly long-winded. It annoyed me enough
that I complained about it and asked him to make things short and simple
- and that in turn annoyed him.
I find it puzzling. These agents don't seem at ease in English, so I
don't think it can be their native language; and when working in a
second language, isn't the usual impulse to pare things to essentials?

English is taught by non-natives who think in their native language and
translate the thoughts to English, to get weird constructions quite
often; as they are not in the vocal mode but the polite or emotional
literary mode in the translation process. That happening from not
speaking to native English but learning from their literature.

Post by Hibou
¹Not a locker, a counter. I expect the lassie just forgot to scan the
barcode.

[Hibou]

Post by Bertietaylor

Post by Hibou
I had an Indian agent on the phone a while back, and his English was of
this sort too - rapid, but peculiarly long-winded. It annoyed me enough
that I complained about it and asked him to make things short and simple
- and that in turn annoyed him.
I find it puzzling. These agents don't seem at ease in English, so I
don't think it can be their native language; and when working in a
second language, isn't the usual impulse to pare things to essentials?

English is taught by non-natives who think in their native language and
translate the thoughts to English, to get weird constructions quite
often; as they are not in the vocal mode but the polite or emotional
literary mode in the translation process. That happening from not
speaking to native English but learning from their literature.

OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

[occam]

Post by Hibou

Post by Bertietaylor

Post by Hibou
I had an Indian agent on the phone a while back, and his English was of
this sort too - rapid, but peculiarly long-winded. It annoyed me enough
that I complained about it and asked him to make things short and simple
- and that in turn annoyed him.
I find it puzzling. These agents don't seem at ease in English, so I
don't think it can be their native language; and when working in a
second language, isn't the usual impulse to pare things to essentials?

English is taught by non-natives who think in their native language and
translate the thoughts to English, to get weird constructions quite
often; as they are not in the vocal mode but the polite or emotional
literary mode in the translation process. That happening from not
speaking to native English but learning from their literature.

OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".

"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

[bertietaylor]

Post by occam

Post by Hibou

Post by Bertietaylor

Post by Hibou
I had an Indian agent on the phone a while back, and his English was of
this sort too - rapid, but peculiarly long-winded. It annoyed me enough
that I complained about it and asked him to make things short and simple
- and that in turn annoyed him.
I find it puzzling. These agents don't seem at ease in English, so I
don't think it can be their native language; and when working in a
second language, isn't the usual impulse to pare things to essentials?

English is taught by non-natives who think in their native language and
translate the thoughts to English, to get weird constructions quite
often; as they are not in the vocal mode but the polite or emotional
literary mode in the translation process. That happening from not
speaking to native English but learning from their literature.

OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

Don't Canadians speak the purest English as was spoken say 3 centuries
ago in England? Canada hasn't been too kind to immigrants from Europe,
so the English language there not mangled as in the US.

[Hibou]

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

I sometimes feel sorry for Americans. Theirs is a young, one might say
adolescent country. The Wild West was only yesterday, and it seems they
still feel the need for their six-shooters. Things move fast over there
- not just in language, but also in politics, and in commerce - and when
they go awry, America goes wrong first.

An example is GAFAM - Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon, and Microsoft -
to which one could perhaps add Twitter. What a toxic crew! One of them
even felt the need to remind itself "Don't be evil", but no longer does.

It takes a fair amount of work to curb their reach. I've recently
commissioned some new Android devices, and I note that I uninstalled or
disabled some 27 apps on the last one. They just love to worm their way
into your pocket and go with you everywhere. If the data they collect
were gathered manually, if a wee man followed each of us everywhere,
noting where we go, whom we speak to, and what we buy, he'd soon be told
where to go.

Anyway... our picture of the Americans is no doubt skewed. It's the
loudest and weirdest whom we hear from most. Yet there are quiet,
charming Americans, too; I've met some. We don't hear from them much,
but I expect they're the majority.

[occam]

Post by Hibou

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

Let me add one other source of 'export' of Americanisms - Duolingo. The
sad fact is that most people (foreigners) turn to Yanks to learn
English. Here are some other American expressions which one learns
subliminally while learning French, Spanish, etc... via Duolingo.

* 'yard' (instead of garden)
* 'wild' (instead of crazy)
* 'pants' (instead of trousers)
* 'it stinks' (instead of 'it's terrible', translation of the French
"c'est nul")

* 'President Trump' (instead of 'deranged cunt')

Post by Hibou
I sometimes feel sorry for Americans. Theirs is a young, one might say
adolescent country. The Wild West was only yesterday, and it seems they
still feel the need for their six-shooters. Things move fast over there
- not just in language, but also in politics, and in commerce - and when
they go awry, America goes wrong first.
An example is GAFAM - Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon, and Microsoft -
to which one could perhaps add Twitter. What a toxic crew! One of them
even felt the need to remind itself "Don't be evil", but no longer does.

Add 'Duolingo' to the above. As long as the teaching of English is
delegated to Yanks, the problem will continue to deteriorate. In the
words of Duolingo, 'it stinks'.

Post by Hibou
It takes a fair amount of work to curb their reach. I've recently
commissioned some new Android devices, and I note that I uninstalled or
disabled some 27 apps on the last one. They just love to worm their way
into your pocket and go with you everywhere. If the data they collect
were gathered manually, if a wee man followed each of us everywhere,
noting where we go, whom we speak to, and what we buy, he'd soon be told
where to go.
Anyway... our picture of the Americans is no doubt skewed. It's the
loudest and weirdest whom we hear from most. Yet there are quiet,
charming Americans, too; I've met some. We don't hear from them much,
but I expect they're the majority.

[Mike Spencer]

Post by occam
Let me add one other source of 'export' of Americanisms - Duolingo. The
sad fact is that most people (foreigners) turn to Yanks to learn
English. Here are some other American expressions which one learns
subliminally while learning French, Spanish, etc... via Duolingo.
* 'yard' (instead of garden)

Speaking as a decades-long Canadian of American ethnic heritage...

In typical American usage, a garden is explicitly a substantial area
devoted to growing flowers, vegetables and possibly other tended
plants. A yard may include or surround a garden but isn't required to
do so. The yard of a sterotypical suburban tract house may well have
no garden at all, the only tended plants being a more or less limited
patch of grass that is mown to be lawn.

For a deeper dive into the distinction, consider the word dooryard.
In rural New England, the area surrounding a farmhouse or homestead
may all be carefully tended (or not, blending gradually into woodland,
scrubland, pasture or other agricultural use) and referred to as yard
but only part of it would be considered dooryard. And it would be
distinct from the barnyard.

A house posh enough to have professional landscaping wouldn't have a
dooryard as the notion would be orthogonal to life style and foot
traffic patterns of such a house.

Post by occam
* 'wild' (instead of crazy)
* 'pants' (instead of trousers)

A girl can sing and a girl can dance
A girl can knit and crochet
But she can't strike a match on the seat of her pants
'Cause she just ain't built that way.

Well, that's a rhyme over 100 years old and it's acceptable that
girls' fashions have changed to contradict it. Alas, AFAIK, they've
stopped making matches that you -- boy or girl -- can strike on the
seat of your pants. (Did you know that the sale of matches has fallen
on such hard times that all of the big match companies in the US and
Canada have been taken over by one relatively small family business in
Jaffrey, New Hampshire that is struggling to cultivate enough market
to stay in business?)

Post by occam
* 'it stinks' (instead of 'it's terrible', translation of the French
"c'est nul")

I am never forget the day my first book is published.
Every chapter I stole from somewhere else.

Index I copy from old Vladivostok telephone directory.
This book, this book was sensational!
Pravda - ah, Pravda - Pravda said:

"Zhil byl korol' kogda-to, Pri njom blokha zhila" ("It stinks").

But Izvestia! Izvestia said:

"Ya idu kuda sam tzar' peshkom hodil" ("It stinks").

Metro-Goldwyn-Moskva bought the movie rights for six million rubles,
Changing title to 'The Eternal Triangle', With Brigitte Bardot playing
part of hypotenuse.

Tom Lehrer,

Post by occam
* 'President Trump' (instead of 'deranged cunt')

Bolshoi nye kulturny, but just so.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by occam
Let me add one other source of 'export' of Americanisms -
Duolingo. The sad fact is that most people (foreigners) turn to
Yanks to learn English. Here are some other American expressions
which one learns subliminally while learning French, Spanish,
etc... via Duolingo.
* 'yard' (instead of garden)

Speaking as a decades-long Canadian of American ethnic heritage...
In typical American usage, a garden is explicitly a substantial area
devoted to growing flowers, vegetables and possibly other tended
plants. A yard may include or surround a garden but isn't required
to do so. The yard of a sterotypical suburban tract house may well
have no garden at all, the only tended plants being a more or less
limited patch of grass that is mown to be lawn.

In this respect, Australian terminology is the same as American. My back
yard has two small gardens, one for growing herbs and the other for
growing vegetables, but most of the yard is bricked over and grows
nothing but weeds. There are also many pot plants, but a pot doesn't
qualify as a garden. My front yard is mostly lawn, but with two flower
gardens along the edges.

My main complaint about Duolingo's English is that it sometimes comes up
with a translation into English that looks as if it was written by a
non-native speaker or an AI. Those examples don't look American to me.
They possibly could be Irish English.

[Aidan Kehoe]

[...] My main complaint about Duolingo's English is that it sometimes comes
up with a translation into English that looks as if it was written by a
non-native speaker or an AI. Those examples don't look American to me. They
possibly could be Irish English.

There are some constructions from Irish English used without comment (in
Duolingo Irish) to convey aspect absent in standard English, which is not
ideal. Unfortunately not everyone speaks Irish English.

I’m currently impressed by Duolingo Turkish, but that’s probably because I
attempted to learn Azeri a decade ago and some of it stuck.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] My main complaint about Duolingo's English is that it
sometimes comes up with a translation into English that looks as
if it was written by a non-native speaker or an AI. Those examples
don't look American to me. They possibly could be Irish English.

There are some constructions from Irish English used without comment
(in Duolingo Irish) to convey aspect absent in standard English,
which is not ideal. Unfortunately not everyone speaks Irish English.

I've noticed that Duolingo Irish makes a distinction in English between
"He is ..." and "He does be ..." (or something like that), where the
latter construct would be completely unnatural in Australian English.
But that's possibly because Irish has two "be" verbs while English only
has one.

On the other hand, I've noticed that "ag + <infinitive>" seems to map
very naturally into the English present continuous tense.

Post by Aidan Kehoe
I’m currently impressed by Duolingo Turkish, but that’s probably
because I attempted to learn Azeri a decade ago and some of it
stuck.

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] My main complaint about Duolingo's English is that it
sometimes comes up with a translation into English that looks as
if it was written by a non-native speaker or an AI. Those examples
don't look American to me. They possibly could be Irish English.

There are some constructions from Irish English used without comment
(in Duolingo Irish) to convey aspect absent in standard English,
which is not ideal. Unfortunately not everyone speaks Irish English.

I've noticed that Duolingo Irish makes a distinction in English between
"He is ..." and "He does be ..." (or something like that), where the
latter construct would be completely unnatural in Australian English.

“Tá sé ag imirt peile” vs. “Bíonn sé ag imirt peile.” The former is “he is
[currently, as we speak] playing football,” the latter “he [regularly,
routinely] plays football,” you’ll hear “he does be playing football” for this
in English in Ireland.

“Imríonn sé peile” is “he plays football” or “he is playing football” depending
on context.

Post by Peter Moylan
But that's possibly because Irish has two "be" verbs while English only
has one.
On the other hand, I've noticed that "ag + <infinitive>" seems to map
very naturally into the English present continuous tense.

Post by Aidan Kehoe
I’m currently impressed by Duolingo Turkish, but that’s probably
because I attempted to learn Azeri a decade ago and some of it
stuck.

[occam]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by occam
Let me add one other source of 'export' of Americanisms -
Duolingo. The sad fact is that most people (foreigners) turn to
Yanks to learn English. Here are some other American expressions
which one learns subliminally while learning French, Spanish,
etc... via Duolingo.
* 'yard' (instead of garden)

Speaking as a decades-long Canadian of American ethnic heritage...
In typical American usage, a garden is explicitly a substantial area
 devoted to growing flowers, vegetables and possibly other tended
plants.  A yard may include or surround a garden but isn't required
to do so.  The yard of a sterotypical suburban tract house may well
have no garden at all, the only tended plants being a more or less
limited patch of grass that is mown to be lawn.

In this respect, Australian terminology is the same as American. My back
yard has two small gardens, one for growing herbs and the other for
growing vegetables, but most of the yard is bricked over and grows
nothing but weeds.

Let's remember that the issue is the translation of 'jardin' (in French)
to 'yard' (Yankish). I cannot progress in an exercise, unless I use
'yard' instead of 'garden'.

<snip>

Post by Peter Moylan
My main complaint about Duolingo's English is that it sometimes comes up
with a translation into English that looks as if it was written by a
non-native speaker or an AI.

I do not believe AI is used in Duolingo. I know this from certain 'free
form' listening exercises, where you are asked to summarise a certain
scenario in your own words. Perhaps you have that in the Irish exercises?

I consistently cut-and-paste nonsense phrases into the box. Here is one
of my favourite phrases, which rewards me with easy 10 points,
irrespective of the scenario in the exercise.

"Ceci est un haiku français: Un vieil étang, Une grenouille qui plonge,
Le bruit de l’eau, C'est chouette n'est-ce pas, Duo? "

Here's another:

"J'ai découvert que le programme Duolingo est incapable d'analyser ces
textes de manière intelligente. Le score est... L'Intelligence
Artificielle 0, la bêtise humaine 1. "

Both cut-n-pastes are accepted without the blinking of an AI-eye. It
takes two seconds, I am awarded 10 points, and I move on.

Post by Peter Moylan
Those examples don't look American to me.
They possibly could be Irish English.

That may be because you are learning Irish? You'd see a different slant
if you were learning some other language. Here is a third cut-n-paste I
insert into my French exercises:

"Le niveau d'anglais de Duolingo est souvent atroce. On espère que leur
français est d'un meilleur niveau. Sinon, quel désastre !"

[Peter Moylan]

Post by occam
I do not believe AI is used in Duolingo. I know this from certain
'free form' listening exercises, where you are asked to summarise a
certain scenario in your own words. Perhaps you have that in the
Irish exercises?

I haven't met that, but it could be because I haven't advanced far
enough in the language. (One of the few sentences I can produce
spontaneously is "Nil Gaeilge agam". You can probably guess what that
means.) It strikes me as something that would require a human teacher to
grade your response.

Post by occam
I consistently cut-and-paste nonsense phrases into the box. Here is
one of my favourite phrases, which rewards me with easy 10 points,
irrespective of the scenario in the exercise.
"Ceci est un haiku français: Un vieil étang, Une grenouille qui
plonge, Le bruit de l’eau, C'est chouette n'est-ce pas, Duo? "

Good example. If you can write that without looking at a dictionary,
you're doing well in French.

[occam]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by occam
I do not believe AI is used in Duolingo. I know this from certain
'free form' listening exercises, where you are asked to summarise a
certain scenario in your own words.  Perhaps you have that in the
Irish exercises?

I haven't met that, but it could be because I haven't advanced far
enough in the language. (One of the few sentences I can produce
spontaneously is "Nil Gaeilge agam". You can probably guess what that
means.) It strikes me as something that would require a human teacher to
grade your response.

Post by occam
I consistently cut-and-paste nonsense phrases into the box. Here is
one of my favourite phrases, which rewards me with easy 10 points,
irrespective of the scenario in the exercise.
"Ceci est un haiku français:  Un vieil étang, Une grenouille qui
plonge, Le bruit de l’eau, C'est chouette n'est-ce pas, Duo? "

Good example. If you can write that without looking at a dictionary,
you're doing well in French.

I cannot, and I'm not doing that brilliantly. I looked the haiku up
once, I have it in my text pad, and I cut-n-paste it at will. It is
proof positive (for me) that there is no AI behind Duolingo.

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by occam
Let me add one other source of 'export' of Americanisms -
Duolingo. The sad fact is that most people (foreigners) turn to
Yanks to learn English. Here are some other American expressions
which one learns subliminally while learning French, Spanish,
etc... via Duolingo.
* 'yard' (instead of garden)

Speaking as a decades-long Canadian of American ethnic heritage...
In typical American usage, a garden is explicitly a substantial area
devoted to growing flowers, vegetables and possibly other tended
plants. A yard may include or surround a garden but isn't required
to do so. The yard of a sterotypical suburban tract house may well
have no garden at all, the only tended plants being a more or less
limited patch of grass that is mown to be lawn.

In this respect, Australian terminology is the same as American. My back
yard has two small gardens, one for growing herbs and the other for
growing vegetables, but most of the yard is bricked over and grows
nothing but weeds. There are also many pot plants, but a pot doesn't
qualify as a garden. My front yard is mostly lawn, but with two flower
gardens along the edges.
My main complaint about Duolingo's English is that it sometimes comes up
with a translation into English that looks as if it was written by a
non-native speaker or an AI. Those examples don't look American to me.
They possibly could be Irish English.

I believe that Old English geard (stress on the first of two syllables,
and a soft 'g' as in today's 'yard') was wide enough to encompass a
garden as well as many other sorts of enclosure. Aren't gardens then a
subset of yards, for the elderly among us?

[Steve Hayes]

On 09 Dec 2024 19:48:41 -0400, Mike Spencer

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by occam
* 'yard' (instead of garden)

Speaking as a decades-long Canadian of American ethnic heritage...
In typical American usage, a garden is explicitly a substantial area
devoted to growing flowers, vegetables and possibly other tended
plants. A yard may include or surround a garden but isn't required to
do so. The yard of a sterotypical suburban tract house may well have
no garden at all, the only tended plants being a more or less limited
patch of grass that is mown to be lawn.

In my (SAfE) usage a "garden" is a place where plants are cultivated.
So lawn and shrubs surrounding a dwelling. A "yard" is a smaller
enclosed area, usually paved and not noted for vegetation. We have
such a "yard" where we keep a wheelbarrow, the dustbin and other junk,
which is hidden from passers-by by a high brick wall. It is "paved"
with concrete.

We also have a "backyard" outside the kitchen door, which is grassed,
but has things like the washing line, and the compost heap, and is
also largely hidden from passers-by.

Post by Mike Spencer
For a deeper dive into the distinction, consider the word dooryard.
In rural New England, the area surrounding a farmhouse or homestead
may all be carefully tended (or not, blending gradually into woodland,
scrubland, pasture or other agricultural use) and referred to as yard
but only part of it would be considered dooryard. And it would be
distinct from the barnyard.
A house posh enough to have professional landscaping wouldn't have a
dooryard as the notion would be orthogonal to life style and foot
traffic patterns of such a house.

Post by occam
* 'wild' (instead of crazy)
* 'pants' (instead of trousers)

A girl can sing and a girl can dance
A girl can knit and crochet
But she can't strike a match on the seat of her pants
'Cause she just ain't built that way.
Well, that's a rhyme over 100 years old and it's acceptable that
girls' fashions have changed to contradict it. Alas, AFAIK, they've
stopped making matches that you -- boy or girl -- can strike on the
seat of your pants. (Did you know that the sale of matches has fallen
on such hard times that all of the big match companies in the US and
Canada have been taken over by one relatively small family business in
Jaffrey, New Hampshire that is struggling to cultivate enough market
to stay in business?)

Post by occam
* 'it stinks' (instead of 'it's terrible', translation of the French
"c'est nul")

I am never forget the day my first book is published.
Every chapter I stole from somewhere else.
Index I copy from old Vladivostok telephone directory.
This book, this book was sensational!
"Zhil byl korol' kogda-to, Pri njom blokha zhila" ("It stinks").
"Ya idu kuda sam tzar' peshkom hodil" ("It stinks").
Metro-Goldwyn-Moskva bought the movie rights for six million rubles,
Changing title to 'The Eternal Triangle', With Brigitte Bardot playing
part of hypotenuse.
Tom Lehrer,

Post by occam
* 'President Trump' (instead of 'deranged cunt')

Bolshoi nye kulturny, but just so.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Steve Hayes
On 09 Dec 2024 19:48:41 -0400, Mike Spencer

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by occam
* 'yard' (instead of garden)

Speaking as a decades-long Canadian of American ethnic heritage...
In typical American usage, a garden is explicitly a substantial area
devoted to growing flowers, vegetables and possibly other tended
plants. A yard may include or surround a garden but isn't required to
do so. The yard of a sterotypical suburban tract house may well have
no garden at all, the only tended plants being a more or less limited
patch of grass that is mown to be lawn.

In my (SAfE) usage a "garden" is a place where plants are cultivated.
So lawn and shrubs surrounding a dwelling. A "yard" is a smaller
enclosed area, usually paved and not noted for vegetation. We have
such a "yard" where we keep a wheelbarrow, the dustbin and other junk,
which is hidden from passers-by by a high brick wall. It is "paved"
with concrete.

My wife's vividly expressed complaint about Duolingo is their insistence
(for example) that the _only_ acceptable translation of "jardin" is
"yard". People who know better dislike having this stuffed down their
throat.

I think that parallels Occam's view.

[Ross Clark]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by occam
Let me add one other source of 'export' of Americanisms - Duolingo. The
sad fact is that most people (foreigners) turn to Yanks to learn
English. Here are some other American expressions which one learns
subliminally while learning French, Spanish, etc... via Duolingo.
* 'yard' (instead of garden)

Speaking as a decades-long Canadian of American ethnic heritage...
In typical American usage, a garden is explicitly a substantial area
devoted to growing flowers, vegetables and possibly other tended
plants. A yard may include or surround a garden but isn't required to
do so. The yard of a sterotypical suburban tract house may well have
no garden at all, the only tended plants being a more or less limited
patch of grass that is mown to be lawn.
For a deeper dive into the distinction, consider the word dooryard.
In rural New England, the area surrounding a farmhouse or homestead
may all be carefully tended (or not, blending gradually into woodland,
scrubland, pasture or other agricultural use) and referred to as yard
but only part of it would be considered dooryard. And it would be
distinct from the barnyard.
A house posh enough to have professional landscaping wouldn't have a
dooryard as the notion would be orthogonal to life style and foot
traffic patterns of such a house.

Post by occam
* 'wild' (instead of crazy)
* 'pants' (instead of trousers)

A girl can sing and a girl can dance
A girl can knit and crochet
But she can't strike a match on the seat of her pants
'Cause she just ain't built that way.
Well, that's a rhyme over 100 years old and it's acceptable that
girls' fashions have changed to contradict it. Alas, AFAIK, they've
stopped making matches that you -- boy or girl -- can strike on the
seat of your pants. (Did you know that the sale of matches has fallen
on such hard times that all of the big match companies in the US and
Canada have been taken over by one relatively small family business in
Jaffrey, New Hampshire that is struggling to cultivate enough market
to stay in business?)

Post by occam
* 'it stinks' (instead of 'it's terrible', translation of the French
"c'est nul")

I am never forget the day my first book is published.
Every chapter I stole from somewhere else.
Index I copy from old Vladivostok telephone directory.
This book, this book was sensational!
"Zhil byl korol' kogda-to, Pri njom blokha zhila" ("It stinks").

I know this song/routine, but never saw it written out, or had occasion
to wonder what the Russian actually said or where it came from.
So I looked it up. It says "Once there was a king, And a flea lived with
him". It's the first two lines from Mussorgsky's "Song of the Flea", the
text of which is a Russian translation from Goethe's _Faust_.

Post by Mike Spencer
"Ya idu kuda sam tzar' peshkom hodil" ("It stinks").

"I am going where even the Tsar goes (used to go) on foot". Apparently a
jokey expression for going to the toilet. The version above has the past
imperfective; change the final -l to -t and you get the present. I found
both versions online -- maybe they switched -t to -l after the Revolution?

Post by Mike Spencer
Metro-Goldwyn-Moskva bought the movie rights for six million rubles,
Changing title to 'The Eternal Triangle', With Brigitte Bardot playing
part of hypotenuse.
Tom Lehrer,

Post by occam
* 'President Trump' (instead of 'deranged cunt')

Bolshoi nye kulturny, but just so.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Mike Spencer

Post by occam
* 'President Trump' (instead of 'deranged cunt')

Bolshoi nye kulturny, but just so.

Nyekulturniy is too mild an assessment. Yes, the man is a boor, but
that's the least of his faults.

[Snidely]

Anyway... our picture of the Americans is no doubt skewed. It's the loudest
and weirdest whom we hear from most. Yet there are quiet, charming Americans,
too; I've met some. We don't hear from them much, but I expect they're the
majority.

Impossible!

-d

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 04:07:59 -0800

Post by Snidely

Anyway... our picture of the Americans is no doubt skewed. It's the loudest
and weirdest whom we hear from most. Yet there are quiet, charming Americans,
too; I've met some. We don't hear from them much, but I expect they're the
majority.

Impossible!

The recent US election shows that it's not good to have democracy rely on a well-educated public. For a looney govmnt, just keep defunding education.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 04:07:59 -0800

Post by Snidely

Anyway... our picture of the Americans is no doubt skewed. It's the loudest
and weirdest whom we hear from most. Yet there are quiet, charming Americans,
too; I've met some. We don't hear from them much, but I expect they're the
majority.

Impossible!

The recent US election shows that it's not good to have democracy rely on a well-educated public. For a looney govmnt, just keep defunding e

Have you changed your newsreader or its settings, so that it no longer
does word-wrap?

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 05:02:17 +0200

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Mon, 09 Dec 2024 04:07:59 -0800

Post by Snidely

Anyway... our picture of the Americans is no doubt skewed. It's the loudest
and weirdest whom we hear from most. Yet there are quiet, charming Americans,
too; I've met some. We don't hear from them much, but I expect they're the
majority.

Impossible!

The recent US election shows that it's not good to have democracy rely on a well-educated public. For a looney govmnt, just keep defunding e

Have you changed your newsreader or its settings, so that it no longer
does word-wrap?

I was posting from a recent install on a laptop; so probably a setting
change is required.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Hibou
I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

Then you should be happy with Trump's plan to stop international trade.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Hibou

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".

A related example is when all records have to be "track" -- when
people speak of "a track record in sales" when they mean a sales
record.

I don't think these are necessarily American, though a lot of them
seem to originate there. They are rather examples of business-speak or
commercialese.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".

Ahh! So Hibou was not objecting to 'road map, or, presumably, no-fly
zone as descriptive terms, but rather when they are misused.

I agree, there are a lot of things like that. "At the end of the day",
"On the same page", to name just two.

I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

Post by Steve Hayes
A related example is when all records have to be "track" -- when
people speak of "a track record in sales" when they mean a sales
record.
I don't think these are necessarily American, though a lot of them
seem to originate there. They are rather examples of business-speak or
commercialese.

[Hibou]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou
I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".

Ahh! So Hibou was not objecting to 'road map, or, presumably, no-fly
zone as descriptive terms, but rather when they are misused.

My apologies. I didn't elaborate because we've discussed these terms
before. It's 'road map' for 'route plan' that I object to. 'No-fly zone'
is routinely used to mean 'no-flying zone', though it looks as if it
should mean an area /sans mouches/.

Post by lar3ryca
I agree, there are a lot of things like that. "At the end of the day",
"On the same page", to name just two.
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

'Bathroom' for loo, when the desire is simply to point Percy at the
porcelain. I suspect that British people are quite often perplexed by
Americans asking for the bathroom when there's no bath nearby.

Talking of flies... aren't they agile - I mean ordinary house flies -
and the very devil to swat? Our very first gîte in France was next to a
dairy farm (we've learnt to avoid this) and, no matter how careful we
were, some of the huge crowd of flies would find their way in whenever
we opened the door.

But I made a discovery. If they were, say, loafing about on a window,
and I approached them very slowly with a sheet of kitchen towel, they
were unable to perceive this movement until it was too late - and then
squish!

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Hibou
My apologies. I didn't elaborate because we've discussed these terms
before. It's 'road map' for 'route plan' that I object to. 'No-fly
zone' is routinely used to mean 'no-flying zone', though it looks as
if it should mean an area /sans mouches/.

You probably know of a software technique known as "On-the-fly garbage
collection". It's very easy to misread that as "On-the-garbage fly
collection".

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Hibou
'Bathroom' for loo, when the desire is simply to point Percy at the
porcelain. I suspect that British people are quite often perplexed by
Americans asking for the bathroom when there's no bath nearby.

The worst confusion is when you have a bathroom, but there's no throne
in it.

Years ago, when I was living in a student residence, I had a visitor who
wanted to powder her nose, and later to wash her hands. The mirror and
the washbasin were both in the bedroom, so that's where I sent her. I
genuinely didn't realise, at the time, what she really meant. If I'm
recalling it correctly, she finally asked for the bathroom, and I was
able to answer "It's out in the corridor; it's the room next to the toilet".

[jerryfriedman]

..

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

'Bathroom' for loo, when the desire is simply to point Percy at the
porcelain. I suspect that British people are quite often perplexed by
Americans asking for the bathroom when there's no bath nearby.

..

No doubt Americans are sometimes perplexed by "loo" and
"bog". Fortunately the euphemisms "toilet" and "lavatory",
which are very similar to "bathroom", are widely
understood.

It occurs to me that I haven't heard this sense of
"john" or "can" in decades.

--
Jerry Friedman

--

[Steve Hayes]

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

'Bathroom' for loo, when the desire is simply to point Percy at the
porcelain. I suspect that British people are quite often perplexed by
Americans asking for the bathroom when there's no bath nearby.

..
No doubt Americans are sometimes perplexed by "loo" and
"bog". Fortunately the euphemisms "toilet" and "lavatory",
which are very similar to "bathroom", are widely
understood.

"Loo" has the great advantage of being unambiguous. It is used solely
for pissing and shitting (Ame="pooping").

"Lavatory" (which was the term for a loo that I heard in my earliest
youth) is ambiguous -- I've seen US building material catalogues where
it is used for a wash hand basin, which is, of course, etymologically
correct. And, in that sense, some loos do have a lavatory, while
others do not.

[charles]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

'Bathroom' for loo, when the desire is simply to point Percy at the
porcelain. I suspect that British people are quite often perplexed by
Americans asking for the bathroom when there's no bath nearby.

..
No doubt Americans are sometimes perplexed by "loo" and
"bog". Fortunately the euphemisms "toilet" and "lavatory",
which are very similar to "bathroom", are widely
understood.

"Loo" has the great advantage of being unambiguous. It is used solely
for pissing and shitting (Ame="pooping").

"Loo" is a anglisation of "lieu" = a place, At my classical weighted
boarding school it was called "topos" - the Greek for place.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by charles

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

'Bathroom' for loo, when the desire is simply to point Percy at the
porcelain. I suspect that British people are quite often perplexed by
Americans asking for the bathroom when there's no bath nearby.

..
No doubt Americans are sometimes perplexed by "loo" and
"bog". Fortunately the euphemisms "toilet" and "lavatory",
which are very similar to "bathroom", are widely
understood.

"Loo" has the great advantage of being unambiguous. It is used solely
for pissing and shitting (Ame="pooping").

"Loo" is a anglisation of "lieu" = a place, At my classical weighted
boarding school it was called "topos" - the Greek for place.

Yes, I also attended an institution where it was called "the topos",
the Greek translation of "joint".

Another explanation of the origin is that it comes from "Gardy-loo",
derived from "Guardez l'eau", shouted when emptying the chamber pot
out of the window.

[Hibou]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by charles
"Loo" is a anglisation of "lieu" = a place, At my classical weighted
boarding school it was called "topos" - the Greek for place.

In BrE, we should perhaps call it 'the left', then.

Post by Steve Hayes
Yes, I also attended an institution where it was called "the topos",
the Greek translation of "joint".
Another explanation of the origin is that it comes from "Gardy-loo",
derived from "Guardez l'eau", shouted when emptying the chamber pot
out of the window.

That doesn't sound right to me. « Gardez l'eau » is "Keep the water". «
Garde à l'eau ! » would be "Watch out for the water!"

Je google pour vérifier et trouve ceci :
'Gardyloo' -
<https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/gardyloo>

... which suggests both possibilities.

I don't quite understand the idea of doing it at ten o'clock. If all the
maids in the street do it then, there's nowhere to run.

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 06:20:13 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by charles
"Loo" is a anglisation of "lieu" = a place, At my classical weighted
boarding school it was called "topos" - the Greek for place.

In BrE, we should perhaps call it 'the left', then.

Post by Steve Hayes
Yes, I also attended an institution where it was called "the topos",
the Greek translation of "joint".
Another explanation of the origin is that it comes from "Gardy-loo",
derived from "Guardez l'eau", shouted when emptying the chamber pot
out of the window.

That doesn't sound right to me. « Gardez l'eau » is "Keep the water". «
Garde à l'eau ! » would be "Watch out for the water!"
'Gardyloo' -
<https://www.dsl.ac.uk/entry/snd/gardyloo>
... which suggests both possibilities.
I don't quite understand the idea of doing it at ten o'clock. If all the
maids in the street do it then, there's nowhere to run.

I'm sure your knowledge of French is better than mine.

[Silvano]

Post by Steve Hayes
"Lavatory" (which was the term for a loo that I heard in my earliest
youth) is ambiguous -- I've seen US building material catalogues where
it is used for a wash hand basin, which is, of course, etymologically
correct. And, in that sense, some loos do have a lavatory, while
others do not.

Someone told me a few years ago that there are such things (loos without
a wash hand basin) in Austria, but I have never seen them and it's still
hard for me to believe that such things do exist. Mind you, so far I
used loos in less than 40 countries.

[Hibou]

Post by Silvano

Post by Steve Hayes
"Lavatory" (which was the term for a loo that I heard in my earliest
youth) is ambiguous -- I've seen US building material catalogues where
it is used for a wash hand basin, which is, of course, etymologically
correct. And, in that sense, some loos do have a lavatory, while
others do not.

Someone told me a few years ago that there are such things (loos without
a wash hand basin) in Austria, but I have never seen them and it's still
hard for me to believe that such things do exist. Mind you, so far I
used loos in less than 40 countries.

Our loo back in Dorset had no basin. One had to go through to the
kitchen or to the bathroom (which had a bath, but no loo).

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 06:20:10 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou

Post by Silvano

Post by Steve Hayes
"Lavatory" (which was the term for a loo that I heard in my earliest
youth) is ambiguous -- I've seen US building material catalogues where
it is used for a wash hand basin, which is, of course, etymologically
correct. And, in that sense, some loos do have a lavatory, while
others do not.

Someone told me a few years ago that there are such things (loos without
a wash hand basin) in Austria, but I have never seen them and it's still
hard for me to believe that such things do exist. Mind you, so far I
used loos in less than 40 countries.

Our loo back in Dorset had no basin. One had to go through to the
kitchen or to the bathroom (which had a bath, but no loo).

We once lived in a house that had four bedrooms opening of a passage.
There were also three other doors. One opened to a bathroom, with a
bathtub and wash-hand basin. The next opened to a shower. And the
third to the loo.

It meant that if someone was having a bath, someone else could have a
shower. And if two people were doing that, a third could still use the
loo.

[Hibou]

Post by Silvano

Post by Steve Hayes
"Lavatory" (which was the term for a loo that I heard in my earliest
youth) is ambiguous -- I've seen US building material catalogues where
it is used for a wash hand basin, which is, of course, etymologically
correct. And, in that sense, some loos do have a lavatory, while
others do not.

Someone told me a few years ago that there are such things (loos without
a wash hand basin) in Austria, but I have never seen them and it's still
hard for me to believe that such things do exist. Mind you, so far I
used loos in less than 40 countries.

Our loo back in Dorset had no basin. One had to go through to the
kitchen or to the bathroom (which had a bath, but no loo).

[Adam Funk]

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

'Bathroom' for loo, when the desire is simply to point Percy at the
porcelain. I suspect that British people are quite often perplexed by
Americans asking for the bathroom when there's no bath nearby.

..
No doubt Americans are sometimes perplexed by "loo" and
"bog". Fortunately the euphemisms "toilet" and "lavatory",
which are very similar to "bathroom", are widely
understood.
It occurs to me that I haven't heard this sense of
"john" or "can" in decades.

I like "dumper", which I picked up from Kinky Friedman's novels, but
that might not be to everyone's taste.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

'Bathroom' for loo, when the desire is simply to point Percy at the
porcelain. I suspect that British people are quite often perplexed by
Americans asking for the bathroom when there's no bath nearby.

..
No doubt Americans are sometimes perplexed by "loo" and
"bog". Fortunately the euphemisms "toilet" and "lavatory",
which are very similar to "bathroom", are widely
understood.
It occurs to me that I haven't heard this sense of
"john" or "can" in decades.

I like "dumper", which I picked up from Kinky Friedman's novels, but
that might not be to everyone's taste.

So a (US term) "honey wagon" is also a dumper truck?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Adam Funk

No doubt Americans are sometimes perplexed by "loo" and "bog".
Fortunately the euphemisms "toilet" and "lavatory", which are
very similar to "bathroom", are widely understood.
It occurs to me that I haven't heard this sense of "john" or
"can" in decades.

I like "dumper", which I picked up from Kinky Friedman's novels,
but that might not be to everyone's taste.

So a (US term) "honey wagon" is also a dumper truck?

The novel "The Outcasts of Foolgarah" is about a strike by garbage
workers. In the book the dunny truck workers, who come out in sympathy
with the garbos, are referred to as shitties.

A climax in the story comes when a fully laden dunny truck is allowed to
roll down a hill and into a Government House garden party.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

'Bathroom' for loo, when the desire is simply to point Percy at the
porcelain. I suspect that British people are quite often perplexed by
Americans asking for the bathroom when there's no bath nearby.

..
No doubt Americans are sometimes perplexed by "loo" and
"bog". Fortunately the euphemisms "toilet" and "lavatory",
which are very similar to "bathroom", are widely
understood.
It occurs to me that I haven't heard this sense of
"john" or "can" in decades.

I like "dumper", which I picked up from Kinky Friedman's novels, but
that might not be to everyone's taste.

In my youth I coveted a Dinky toy described as a "Muir Hill dumper",
pictured here:

<https://stinesdiecast.com/Info/Dinky/Di562-962.htm>

[lar3ryca]

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

'Bathroom' for loo, when the desire is simply to point Percy at the
porcelain. I suspect that British people are quite often perplexed by
Americans asking for the bathroom when there's no bath nearby.

I suspect that lavatories started out as multi-purpose rooms, in which
one could crap, whizz, wash the face and hands, or have a bath, and the
resulting word stuck.

Post by jerryfriedman
No doubt Americans are sometimes perplexed by "loo" and
"bog".  Fortunately the euphemisms "toilet" and "lavatory",
which are very similar to "bathroom", are widely
understood.
It occurs to me that I haven't heard this sense of
"john" or "can" in decades.

Both are common in CdnE.

[lar3ryca]

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

'Bathroom' for loo, when the desire is simply to point Percy at the
porcelain. I suspect that British people are quite often perplexed by

I suspect that lavatories North America were usually multi-purpose
rooms, in which one could crap, whizz, wash the face and hands, or have
a bath, and the resulting word stuck.

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Hibou
Americans asking for the bathroom when there's no bath nearby.
No doubt Americans are sometimes perplexed by "loo" and

"bog".  Fortunately the euphemisms "toilet" and "lavatory",
which are very similar to "bathroom", are widely
understood.
It occurs to me that I haven't heard this sense of
"john" or "can" in decades.

Both are common in CdnE.

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:51:35 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou
I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".

Ahh! So Hibou was not objecting to 'road map, or, presumably, no-fly
zone as descriptive terms, but rather when they are misused.

My apologies. I didn't elaborate because we've discussed these terms
before. It's 'road map' for 'route plan' that I object to. 'No-fly zone'
is routinely used to mean 'no-flying zone', though it looks as if it
should mean an area /sans mouches/.

I don't understand your objections. A "road map" is not used to mean
a "route plan". It's used to either describe a physical map or to
describe a plan of action.

When I use an online source to provide directions to a location, it
allows me to print the route plan (text directions) and/or a map
showing the route.

The meaning of "no-fly zone" is that aircraft are not permitted to
enter that airspace. It is an area, but an area that extends from
earth to the airspace above.

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca
I agree, there are a lot of things like that. "At the end of the day",
"On the same page", to name just two.
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

'Bathroom' for loo, when the desire is simply to point Percy at the
porcelain. I suspect that British people are quite often perplexed by
Americans asking for the bathroom when there's no bath nearby.

I wonder if the British are confused by Americans describing their
house as a "3/2" or "3/2.5". A house with three bedrooms and two
bathrooms that have a toilet, sink, and bathtub or shower is a "3/2".
A house with three bedrooms, two bathrooms with a toilet, sink, and
shower or bathtub, and a bathroom with only a toilet and sink is a
"3/2.5". Does a Brit think the "3/2.5" has only half a bathtub in one
bathroom?

In the US, some use "restroom" instead of "bathroom". While it may be
used to mean "bathroom" in a residence, it is more commonly used to
for "bathroom" in a commercial building. Department stores had signs
to identify the "Restrooms".

Would your perplexed Brit think the restroom contains beds or couches
so shoppers could have a quick nap?

[Silvano]

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder if the British are confused by Americans describing their
house as a "3/2" or "3/2.5". A house with three bedrooms and two
bathrooms that have a toilet, sink, and bathtub or shower is a "3/2".
A house with three bedrooms, two bathrooms with a toilet, sink, and
shower or bathtub, and a bathroom with only a toilet and sink is a
"3/2.5". Does a Brit think the "3/2.5" has only half a bathtub in one
bathroom?

How would you label my neighbour's flat? Two rooms, one kitchen, one
bathroom with only a bathtub and sink (no toilet there!) and one
bathroom with only a toilet and sink. Still 2/1.5?

[Janet]

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder if the British are confused by Americans describing their
house as a "3/2" or "3/2.5". A house with three bedrooms and two
bathrooms that have a toilet, sink, and bathtub or shower is a "3/2".

In British property market ads, it's a " 3 bed, 2 bath"

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
A house with three bedrooms, two bathrooms with a toilet, sink, and
shower or bathtub, and a bathroom with only a toilet and sink is a
"3/2.5". Does a Brit think the "3/2.5" has only half a bathtub in one
bathroom?

How would you label my neighbour's flat? Two rooms, one kitchen, one
bathroom with only a bathtub and sink (no toilet there!) and one
bathroom with only a toilet and sink. Still 2/1.5?

I'd label your neighbour's flat "Needs updating" :-)

A room with just a toilet and sink, is not a bathroom
or even half a bathroom in Br E. It's a toilet, loo or
lavatory.


Janet.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Janet

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder if the British are confused by Americans describing their
house as a "3/2" or "3/2.5". A house with three bedrooms and two
bathrooms that have a toilet, sink, and bathtub or shower is a "3/2".

In British property market ads, it's a " 3 bed, 2 bath"

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
A house with three bedrooms, two bathrooms with a toilet, sink, and
shower or bathtub, and a bathroom with only a toilet and sink is a
"3/2.5". Does a Brit think the "3/2.5" has only half a bathtub in one
bathroom?

How would you label my neighbour's flat? Two rooms, one kitchen, one
bathroom with only a bathtub and sink (no toilet there!) and one
bathroom with only a toilet and sink. Still 2/1.5?

I'd label your neighbour's flat "Needs updating" :-)
A room with just a toilet and sink, is not a bathroom
or even half a bathroom in Br E. It's a toilet, loo or
lavatory.

Which means, I assume, that a British property market ad the "3/2.5"
would be a "3 bed, 2 bath, 1 loo".

A BrE term that often perplexes me is "semi-detached". I know it
means two residences with a common wall between them, but it conjures
up an image to me of uncompleted construction.

What do you call several residences in a row with only the end ones
having a single common wall?

"Row houses", here.

[Aidan Kehoe]

[...] A BrE term that often perplexes me is "semi-detached". I know it means
two residences with a common wall between them, but it conjures up an image
to me of uncompleted construction.

Is there a US term for that?

What do you call several residences in a row with only the end ones
having a single common wall?
"Row houses", here.

“Terraced houses” is the British term, which we also use here.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] A BrE term that often perplexes me is "semi-detached". I know it means
two residences with a common wall between them, but it conjures up an image
to me of uncompleted construction.

Is there a US term for that?

The first time I crossed Flanders by train (in 1961) I was struck by
the number of houses that looked like semi-detached, or even terraced,
except that they weren't joined to anything: just a wall with no door
or windows where the other house ought to be. I've crossed Flanders
since then, and it hasn't been like that, so I imagine they've done a
lot of development.

Post by Aidan Kehoe

What do you call several residences in a row with only the end ones
having a single common wall?
"Row houses", here.

“Terraced houses” is the British term, which we also use here.

[charles]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
The first time I crossed Flanders by train (in 1961) I was struck by
the number of houses that looked like semi-detached, or even terraced,
except that they weren't joined to anything: just a wall with no door
or windows where the other house ought to be. I've crossed Flanders
since then, and it hasn't been like that, so I imagine they've done a
lot of development.

many years ago Punch had a cartoon showing a family trying to extricate a
dog that had got stuck between two such houses. "I knew we shouldn't have
bought a detatched house" was the caption.

[Chris Elvidge]

[...] A BrE term that often perplexes me is "semi-detached". I know

it means

two residences with a common wall between them, but it conjures up

an image

to me of uncompleted construction.

Is there a US term for that?

The first time I crossed Flanders by train (in 1961) I was struck by the
number of houses that looked like semi-detached, or even terraced,
except that they weren't joined to anything: just a wall with no door or
windows where the other house ought to be. I've crossed Flanders since
then, and it hasn't been like that, so I imagine they've done a lot of
development.

In the UK, too. Houses bombed during the second great unpleasantness.
One half of two semis completely demolished - bomb damage meant it was
unsafe - but not yet rebuilt.

What do you call several residences in a row with only the end ones
having a single common wall?
"Row houses", here.

“Terraced houses” is the British term, which we also use here.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] A BrE term that often perplexes me is "semi-detached". I know it means
two residences with a common wall between them, but it conjures up an image
to me of uncompleted construction.

Is there a US term for that?

The term for two houses with a common wall is "double" or "duplex" in
the US. The realt estate agents seem to now prefer "duplex".

Post by Aidan Kehoe

What do you call several residences in a row with only the end ones
having a single common wall?
"Row houses", here.

“Terraced houses” is the British term, which we also use here.

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 12:48:00 -0500, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] A BrE term that often perplexes me is "semi-detached". I know it means
two residences with a common wall between them, but it conjures up an image
to me of uncompleted construction.

Is there a US term for that?

The term for two houses with a common wall is "double" or "duplex" in
the US. The realt estate agents seem to now prefer "duplex".

That is also used in South Africa, but mainly for joined-up
double-storey flats (BrE= terrace houses).

And then there are "maisonettes", which are semidetached houses
divided horizontally rather than vertically

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Aidan Kehoe

What do you call several residences in a row with only the end ones
having a single common wall?
"Row houses", here.

“Terraced houses” is the British term, which we also use here.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 12:48:00 -0500, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] A BrE term that often perplexes me is "semi-detached". I know it means
two residences with a common wall between them, but it conjures up an image
to me of uncompleted construction.

Is there a US term for that?

The term for two houses with a common wall is "double" or "duplex" in
the US. The realt estate agents seem to now prefer "duplex".

That is also used in South Africa, but mainly for joined-up
double-storey flats (BrE= terrace houses).
And then there are "maisonettes", which are semidetached houses
divided horizontally rather than vertically

In BrE, a maisonette could be one floor (or more) of a detached,
semi-detached, or terraced building. We once owned a maisonette which
was half an 'End of Terrace' house (quasi semi-detached?).

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Janet

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder if the British are confused by Americans describing their
house as a "3/2" or "3/2.5". A house with three bedrooms and two
bathrooms that have a toilet, sink, and bathtub or shower is a "3/2".

In British property market ads, it's a " 3 bed, 2 bath"

In SAfEE there is a "full bath" (with a bathtub) and "half bath" (with
shower but no bathtub).

SAfEE = South African Estateagent English

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 16:16:57 +0100, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
I wonder if the British are confused by Americans describing their
house as a "3/2" or "3/2.5". A house with three bedrooms and two
bathrooms that have a toilet, sink, and bathtub or shower is a "3/2".
A house with three bedrooms, two bathrooms with a toilet, sink, and
shower or bathtub, and a bathroom with only a toilet and sink is a
"3/2.5". Does a Brit think the "3/2.5" has only half a bathtub in one
bathroom?

How would you label my neighbour's flat? Two rooms, one kitchen, one
bathroom with only a bathtub and sink (no toilet there!) and one
bathroom with only a toilet and sink. Still 2/1.5?

We don't have a need to create labels for all configurations. In an
advertisement to offer the flat for let, I'd just write "Two bedroom
apartment".

In many areas there are formerly-single-family residences that have
been divided up into apartments. Some of the results have been rather
odd configurations.

I lived in an apartment in the Old Town area of Chicago in the very
early 1960s that had once been part of a single-family residence.
There was a short hall that the kitchen was off that ended with a
blocked-off door.

On the other side of the blocked-off door was another apartment in
which two Second City performers lived. I hear them through the door
when they were working on their improvisational skills. One would
throw out a subject, and the other would come up with various sketches
on that subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Second_City

On the subject of conversions....

A female I knew in the building next door to my apartment lived in the
ground floor (street level) apartment of a converted residence. There
were two stories of apartments above her, and a basement apartment
below her.

She started to smell a foul odor in her apartment that didn't seem to
have a source. It turned out that the residence had once had a
laundry chute so soiled laundry could be dropped down the chute from
the top two floors to the laundry room that was now the basement
apartment.

When the basement apartment was created, the chute was blocked.

One of the new tenants on an upper floor thought the laundry chute was
a trash chute, and had been placing his bags of trash and garbage in
the chute. When opened, the chute contained bags that had been there
for several weeks.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
I wonder if the British are confused by Americans describing their
house as a "3/2" or "3/2.5".

I would be. We live in a T4/T5: are you confused by that?

Post by Tony Cooper
A house with three bedrooms and two
bathrooms that have a toilet, sink, and bathtub or shower is a "3/2".
A house with three bedrooms, two bathrooms with a toilet, sink, and
shower or bathtub, and a bathroom with only a toilet and sink is a
"3/2.5". Does a Brit think the "3/2.5" has only half a bathtub in one
bathroom?

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 18:27:33 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Tony Cooper
[ … ]
I wonder if the British are confused by Americans describing their
house as a "3/2" or "3/2.5".

I would be. We live in a T4/T5: are you confused by that?

Completely, but Google is not. A T4 is a four-room apartment and a T5
is either one living room and four bedrooms or one living room, one
dining room, and three bedrooms, so your building contains both type
of units.

However, our use of the slash in "3/2" describes a single specific
unit, and you seem to describing a building that contains both types
of units. My understanding is that your apartment is either a T4 or a
T5.

Evidently, the French are not interested in how many toilettes the
units contain.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Tony Cooper
A house with three bedrooms and two
bathrooms that have a toilet, sink, and bathtub or shower is a "3/2".
A house with three bedrooms, two bathrooms with a toilet, sink, and
shower or bathtub, and a bathroom with only a toilet and sink is a
"3/2.5". Does a Brit think the "3/2.5" has only half a bathtub in one
bathroom?

[Silvano]

Post by Tony Cooper
Evidently, the French are not interested in how many toilettes the
units contain.

Neither are the Germans and Italians, because our flats usually have
only one bathroom. Houses may differ.
What we are VERY interested in and I missed strongly in London flats
ads, is the surface in square meters.
Four bedrooms does not mean much to me, because in my flat (formerly two
flats, joined before we moved in) one bedroom is 9 square meters,
another one 24 sq. m. and the other two are neither so big nor so small.

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 19:20:29 +0100, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
Evidently, the French are not interested in how many toilettes the
units contain.

Neither are the Germans and Italians, because our flats usually have
only one bathroom. Houses may differ.

By no means a standard, but a one- or two-bedroom apartment in the US
usually has just one bathroom. A three- or more bedroom apartment is
likely to have two bathrooms.

Post by Silvano
What we are VERY interested in and I missed strongly in London flats
ads, is the surface in square meters.
Four bedrooms does not mean much to me, because in my flat (formerly two
flats, joined before we moved in) one bedroom is 9 square meters,
another one 24 sq. m. and the other two are neither so big nor so small.

Squared dimensions ("9 squared meters") is seldom seen in US
descriptions of rooms. A bedroom would be described a 10 x 12 (ten
feet by 12 feet) The description of the entire house would be given
as square feet, though. The square footage is that part of the house
"under heat". Unheated areas like the garage (even if attached) is
not included in that figure.

[Silvano]

Post by Tony Cooper
Unheated areas like the garage (even if attached) is
not included in that figure.

I hope so! Who lives in a garage?

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 22:16:53 +0100, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
Unheated areas like the garage (even if attached) is
not included in that figure.

I hope so! Who lives in a garage?

The square footage of the garage can be more important to many men
than the square footage of the dining room. Given enough space in the
garage, it's entirely possible to keep a car in one. Most garages,
though, are taken up with other things.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Silvano

Unheated areas like the garage (even if attached) is not included
in that figure.

I hope so! Who lives in a garage?

When my wife and I were married, in our house, a change in the weather
wrecked our plans for outdoor seating. We ended up with one table full
of guests in the garage.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
Unheated areas like the garage (even if attached) is
not included in that figure.

I hope so! Who lives in a garage?

Lots of people do. In Vancouver, 'lane housing' is often just garage in
the back yard converted into a living space. Sometimes the living space
is on a second story, above the garage.

Google vancouver bc "lane housing"

[jerryfriedman]

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 18:20:29 +0000, Silvano wrote:
..

Post by Silvano
What we are VERY interested in and I missed strongly in London flats
ads, is the surface in square meters.

You want "area", not "surface", in any variety of
English I'm familiar with. Solid objects can somewhat
redundantly have "surface area", but floors just have
"area".

--
Jerry Friedman

--

[Steve Hayes]

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:43:15 -0500, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:51:35 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou
I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".

Ahh! So Hibou was not objecting to 'road map, or, presumably, no-fly
zone as descriptive terms, but rather when they are misused.

My apologies. I didn't elaborate because we've discussed these terms
before. It's 'road map' for 'route plan' that I object to. 'No-fly zone'
is routinely used to mean 'no-flying zone', though it looks as if it
should mean an area /sans mouches/.

I don't understand your objections. A "road map" is not used to mean
a "route plan". It's used to either describe a physical map or to
describe a plan of action.

I think the objection is to the latter. It does not refer to a piece
of paper that shows roads.

Another instance is the use of the term "road bloack" when there isn't
aq road in sight, and the speaker means some kind of an obstacle that
is not in a road.

When I hear the term "road block" I picture a road with an obstacle in
it, usually a bunch of police vehicles with flashing lights. Calling
an obstacle a "road block" when it doesn't obstruct a road is otiose.

Post by Tony Cooper
Would your perplexed Brit think the restroom contains beds or couches
so shoppers could have a quick nap?

Perhaps seats for weary travellers/shoppers, as in airport departure
lounges.

[Snidely]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 09:43:15 -0500, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 06:51:35 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou
I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".

Ahh! So Hibou was not objecting to 'road map, or, presumably, no-fly
zone as descriptive terms, but rather when they are misused.

My apologies. I didn't elaborate because we've discussed these terms
before. It's 'road map' for 'route plan' that I object to. 'No-fly zone'
is routinely used to mean 'no-flying zone', though it looks as if it
should mean an area /sans mouches/.

I don't understand your objections. A "road map" is not used to mean
a "route plan". It's used to either describe a physical map or to
describe a plan of action.

I think the objection is to the latter. It does not refer to a piece
of paper that shows roads.
Another instance is the use of the term "road bloack" when there isn't
aq road in sight, and the speaker means some kind of an obstacle that
is not in a road.
When I hear the term "road block" I picture a road with an obstacle in
it, usually a bunch of police vehicles with flashing lights. Calling
an obstacle a "road block" when it doesn't obstruct a road is otiose.

You have a good imagination, and that is precisely the metaphor being
used.

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
Would your perplexed Brit think the restroom contains beds or couches
so shoppers could have a quick nap?

Perhaps seats for weary travellers/shoppers, as in airport departure
lounges.

Classic department stores in The Biggest Cities had, I understand, a
kind of foyer to the ladies plumbing which did have sofas. This is
from the era when romcoms were black-and-white films like "Bringing Up
Baby", and if Portland, Oregon ever had that level of classicism, it
was gone by the time I might be waiting outside for my mother.

A good sit-down cafe did persist in a couple department stores that I
frequented ... maybe into the early '70s. Our Woolworth's had a lunch
counter dating from the '50s or before, and I think it lasted as long
as the Woolworth's itself ... which may not have been to 1970.

/dps


/dps

[Steve Hayes]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".

Ahh! So Hibou was not objecting to 'road map, or, presumably, no-fly
zone as descriptive terms, but rather when they are misused.
I agree, there are a lot of things like that. "At the end of the day",
"On the same page", to name just two.
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

There was an American Bible translation, nicknamed "the bathroom
Blible" because it said that at one point David, on the run from his
enemies, went to the bathroom in a cave.

Americans often refer to rooms as bathrooms when they contain no bath,
and would be too small to have a bath anyway.

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 20:37:09 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".

Ahh! So Hibou was not objecting to 'road map, or, presumably, no-fly
zone as descriptive terms, but rather when they are misused.
I agree, there are a lot of things like that. "At the end of the day",
"On the same page", to name just two.
I left out 'bathroom', as I have no idea how that might be misused.

There was an American Bible translation, nicknamed "the bathroom
Blible" because it said that at one point David, on the run from his
enemies, went to the bathroom in a cave.
Americans often refer to rooms as bathrooms when they contain no bath,
and would be too small to have a bath anyway.

Speaking of word usage that doesn't make sense.

To me, a "bath" is something that one has when immersing ones self in
large container of water and applying soap to body parts. The large
container of water is called a "bathtub". The room is not the "bath".

However, if the room has a shower stall and no tub, it's still a
bathroom.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Steve Hayes
Americans often refer to rooms as bathrooms when they contain no
bath, and would be too small to have a bath anyway.

In a previous house of mine the downstairs bathroom had both a shower
and a bath, and the upstairs bathroom had only a shower. Neither
contained a toilet bowl.

I grew up in an area where the toilets were in the back yard, well
separated from the house. When I moved to the big smoke I had trouble
accepting toilets inside the house. That felt unsanitary to me.

Shitting in a room that was also used for washing was even worse.

[Janet]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Steve Hayes
Americans often refer to rooms as bathrooms when they contain no
bath, and would be too small to have a bath anyway.

In a previous house of mine the downstairs bathroom had both a shower
and a bath, and the upstairs bathroom had only a shower. Neither
contained a toilet bowl.
I grew up in an area where the toilets were in the back yard, well
separated from the house. When I moved to the big smoke I had trouble
accepting toilets inside the house. That felt unsanitary to me.

My gramdfather shared your disgust.

At his house, there was no mains water or plumbiong, the
lav was wooden seat over a bucket in an outhouse and he
emptied the contents in the veg garden.

In thr 1960's, despite his protests, the council
landlord insisted on installing mains water to the house
and turning his pantry into a downstairs bathroom with
bath, basin, taps, water, drains and flushing lav. Other
than storing coal in the bath he refused to use the
facilities on grounds of hygeine.

Post by Peter Moylan
Shitting in a room that was also used for washing was even worse.

Grandad: "Filthy modern habits ".

Janet.

[Snidely]

On Monday or thereabouts, Steve Hayes declared ...

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".
A related example is when all records have to be "track" -- when
people speak of "a track record in sales" when they mean a sales
record.

"Track record" is from motor sports and perhaps running events. It's
of record of what's been accomplished at the track. If you have a
track record, people can look at what you've done ... whether it's in
sales, engineering, jai alai, or the Indy 500.

Post by Steve Hayes
I don't think these are necessarily American, though a lot of them
seem to originate there. They are rather examples of business-speak or
commercialese.

Only to the extent that business-speak adopts sports-speak.

/dps

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Snidely
On Monday or thereabouts, Steve Hayes declared ...

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".
A related example is when all records have to be "track" -- when
people speak of "a track record in sales" when they mean a sales
record.

"Track record" is from motor sports and perhaps running events. It's
of record of what's been accomplished at the track. If you have a
track record, people can look at what you've done ... whether it's in
sales, engineering, jai alai, or the Indy 500.

A track record refers to ones record in track events, like 100 metres,
10000 metres etc as opposed to field events -- long jump, high jump,
pole vault.

Post by Snidely

Post by Steve Hayes
I don't think these are necessarily American, though a lot of them
seem to originate there. They are rather examples of business-speak or
commercialese.

Only to the extent that business-speak adopts sports-speak.

[Snidely]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Snidely
On Monday or thereabouts, Steve Hayes declared ...

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".
A related example is when all records have to be "track" -- when
people speak of "a track record in sales" when they mean a sales
record.

"Track record" is from motor sports and perhaps running events. It's
of record of what's been accomplished at the track. If you have a
track record, people can look at what you've done ... whether it's in
sales, engineering, jai alai, or the Indy 500.

A track record refers to ones record in track events, like 100 metres,
10000 metres etc as opposed to field events -- long jump, high jump,
pole vault.

That's a subset of the story, not the whole shebang. It's not even the
whole shebang of where physical tracks are involved.

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Snidely

Post by Steve Hayes
I don't think these are necessarily American, though a lot of them
seem to originate there. They are rather examples of business-speak or
commercialese.

Only to the extent that business-speak adopts sports-speak.

-d

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".
A related example is when all records have to be "track" -- when
people speak of "a track record in sales" when they mean a sales
record.

Putting 'track' and 'record' together points to the structure of those
vinyl discs that still stare at me here, accusingly. But they're so
fiddly to put on the turntable...

[Steve Hayes]

On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 00:29:53 +0000, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff
Putting 'track' and 'record' together points to the structure of those
vinyl discs that still stare at me here, accusingly. But they're so
fiddly to put on the turntable...

Like the schoolby riddle:

How many tracks does a record have?

Answer: two.

[Snidely]

On Tuesday or thereabouts, Paul Wolff asked ...

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Hibou

Post by occam

Post by Hibou
OK. It's distressing to think that people can be so cavalier with our
language - but not half as distressing as trying to obtain service from
"Earth's most customer-centric company".

"We are sorry to hear that our misuse of your language has caused you
distress".
"But here at Amazon, we are a bunch of Yanks and we have been massacring
the English language for over three centuries, in case you hadn't
noticed. Get over it bud! (Generated by Trump-AI.)

I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

What? "road map" is a perfectly good description of a type of map. It
serves to distinguish it from weather maps, contour maps, and so on.

Yes, but "road map" is sometimes used for something that is not a map
at all, but rather the conception of a plan, such as "the road map for
Middle East peace".
A related example is when all records have to be "track" -- when
people speak of "a track record in sales" when they mean a sales
record.

Putting 'track' and 'record' together points to the structure of those vinyl
discs that still stare at me here, accusingly. But they're so fiddly to put
on the turntable...

Those are record tracks, not track records. One can also have tape
tracks.

One can have a track record of putting records on turntables
successfully.

/dps

[Steve Hayes]

On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:41:39 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou
I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

A trend I have noticed recently is in the US usage of "shit" and
"poop". "Shit" now seems to be entirely metaphorical, and in current
US usage shit seems to be almost always called "poop".

How would AmE speakers here respond to someone saying "the poop hit
the fan"? Or "get your poop together"?

[lar3ryca]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:41:39 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou
I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

A trend I have noticed recently is in the US usage of "shit" and
"poop". "Shit" now seems to be entirely metaphorical, and in current
US usage shit seems to be almost always called "poop".
How would AmE speakers here respond to someone saying "the poop hit
the fan"? Or "get your poop together"?

No idea, but I did hear someone (possibly an American), say
"get your poop in a group".

[Snidely]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Steve Hayes
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:41:39 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou
I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

A trend I have noticed recently is in the US usage of "shit" and
"poop". "Shit" now seems to be entirely metaphorical, and in current
US usage shit seems to be almost always called "poop".
How would AmE speakers here respond to someone saying "the poop hit
the fan"? Or "get your poop together"?

No idea, but I did hear someone (possibly an American), say
"get your poop in a group".

Novel.

-d

[occam]

Post by Snidely

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Steve Hayes
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:41:39 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou
I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

A trend I have noticed recently is in the US usage of "shit" and
"poop". "Shit" now seems to be entirely metaphorical, and in current
US usage shit seems to be almost always called "poop".
How would AmE speakers here respond to someone saying "the poop hit
the fan"? Or "get your poop together"?

No idea, but I did hear someone (possibly an American), say
"get your poop in a group".

Novel.

Hardback or softback? Who is the publisher?

[Hibou]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Steve Hayes
A trend I have noticed recently is in the US usage of "shit" and
"poop". "Shit" now seems to be entirely metaphorical, and in current
US usage shit seems to be almost always called "poop".
How would AmE speakers here respond to someone saying "the poop hit
the fan"? Or "get your poop together"?

No idea, but I did hear someone (possibly an American), say
"get your poop in a group".

<Laugh>

[HVS]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:41:39 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou
I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much
American usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit
wrong (road map, no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that
they wouldn't bother me if they used them only among themselves.
It's the big export trade in Americanisms that's the problem.

A trend I have noticed recently is in the US usage of "shit" and
"poop". "Shit" now seems to be entirely metaphorical, and in
current US usage shit seems to be almost always called "poop".

Public health/medical circles these days appear to favour what seem
to me to be kiddy-terms for bodily parts and waste: faeces or stools
are "poo"; urine is "pee"; your abdomen is your "tummy".

This may be long-standing standard practice -- as I get older, I
receive a lot more pamphlets for screening programmes and such-like
than I used to, so maybe I'm just more exposed to such material these
days -- but it certainly feels infantilising and patronising.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by HVS
Public health/medical circles these days appear to favour what seem
to me to be kiddy-terms for bodily parts and waste: faeces or stools
are "poo"; urine is "pee"; your abdomen is your "tummy".

Is "pee" childish? I thought that it was neutral, and one American once
told me so. I understand your not liking the other words.

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 17:12:57 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by HVS
Public health/medical circles these days appear to favour what seem
to me to be kiddy-terms for bodily parts and waste: faeces or stools
are "poo"; urine is "pee"; your abdomen is your "tummy".

Is "pee" childish? I thought that it was neutral, and one American once
told me so. I understand your not liking the other words.

Context. "Do you have trouble peeing?" is generally acceptable in
conversation, but I would expect a public health/medical publication
to use "Do you have trouble urinating?".

Same with "poo" and "bowel movement".

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 17:12:57 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by HVS
Public health/medical circles these days appear to favour what seem
to me to be kiddy-terms for bodily parts and waste: faeces or stools
are "poo"; urine is "pee"; your abdomen is your "tummy".

Is "pee" childish? I thought that it was neutral, and one American once
told me so. I understand your not liking the other words.

Context. "Do you have trouble peeing?" is generally acceptable in
conversation, but I would expect a public health/medical publication
to use "Do you have trouble urinating?".

When I talk to my doctor about this I say "uriner", but he says "pisser".

Post by Tony Cooper
Same with "poo" and "bowel movement".

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 17:12:57 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by HVS
Public health/medical circles these days appear to favour what seem
to me to be kiddy-terms for bodily parts and waste: faeces or stools
are "poo"; urine is "pee"; your abdomen is your "tummy".

Is "pee" childish? I thought that it was neutral, and one American once
told me so. I understand your not liking the other words.

Context. "Do you have trouble peeing?" is generally acceptable in
conversation, but I would expect a public health/medical publication
to use "Do you have trouble urinating?".

When I talk to my doctor about this I say "uriner", but he says "pisser".

Post by Tony Cooper
Same with "poo" and "bowel movement".

'Piss' is a wholesome but vulgar English word. I just assume that 'pee'
is a sort of genteel euphemism for 'piss' - the p-word, if you like.

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 17:12:57 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by HVS
Public health/medical circles these days appear to favour what seem
to me to be kiddy-terms for bodily parts and waste: faeces or stools
are "poo"; urine is "pee"; your abdomen is your "tummy".

Is "pee" childish? I thought that it was neutral, and one American once
told me so. I understand your not liking the other words.

Context. "Do you have trouble peeing?" is generally acceptable in
conversation, but I would expect a public health/medical publication
to use "Do you have trouble urinating?".

When I talk to my doctor about this I say "uriner", but he says "pisser".

I use “to you have trouble passing water?” and “any pain when you pee?”

I don’t say “to piss”. I consciously avoid “urinate” because many of my
patients left school at 12 seventy years ago and I don’t particularly want to
use anything that might be a literary word for that reason.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Tony Cooper
Same with "poo" and "bowel movement".

'Piss' is a wholesome but vulgar English word. I just assume that 'pee' is a
sort of genteel euphemism for 'piss' - the p-word, if you like.
--
Paul W

[Janet]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 17:12:57 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by HVS
Public health/medical circles these days appear to favour what seem
to me to be kiddy-terms for bodily parts and waste: faeces or stools
are "poo"; urine is "pee"; your abdomen is your "tummy".

Is "pee" childish? I thought that it was neutral, and one American once
told me so. I understand your not liking the other words.

Context. "Do you have trouble peeing?" is generally acceptable in
conversation, but I would expect a public health/medical publication
to use "Do you have trouble urinating?".

When I talk to my doctor about this I say "uriner", but he says "pisser".

Post by Tony Cooper
Same with "poo" and "bowel movement".

'Piss' is a wholesome but vulgar English word. I just assume that 'pee'
is a sort of genteel euphemism for 'piss' - the p-word, if you like.

I knew a tiny American toddler (and his Mommy) who said
he needed to "Pee Yew" abbreviated from Pass Urine. Poo
was having a BM, short for Bowel Movement.

Janet.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by HVS
Public health/medical circles these days appear to favour what seem
to me to be kiddy-terms for bodily parts and waste: faeces or stools
are "poo"; urine is "pee"; your abdomen is your "tummy".
This may be long-standing standard practice -- as I get older, I
receive a lot more pamphlets for screening programmes and such-like
than I used to, so maybe I'm just more exposed to such material these
days -- but it certainly feels infantilising and patronising.

On being given a 'flu vaccination lately.

Nurse: "You'll feel a little scratch."
Me: Laughs
Nurse: "What?"
Me: "When I was young it was 'You'll feel a little prick'"

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:41:39 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou
I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

A trend I have noticed recently is in the US usage of "shit" and
"poop". "Shit" now seems to be entirely metaphorical, and in current
US usage shit seems to be almost always called "poop".
How would AmE speakers here respond to someone saying "the poop hit
the fan"? Or "get your poop together"?

"He's really good. He's poop hot."

[Janet]

In article <%u16P.52392$***@fx17.iad>, ***@home.com
says...

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Steve Hayes
On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:41:39 +0000, Hibou

Post by Hibou
I expect they would take a different view. I dislike much American
usage, especially expressions that are just a wee bit wrong (road map,
no-fly zone, bathroom...) - but the fact is that they wouldn't bother me
if they used them only among themselves. It's the big export trade in
Americanisms that's the problem.

A trend I have noticed recently is in the US usage of "shit" and
"poop". "Shit" now seems to be entirely metaphorical, and in current
US usage shit seems to be almost always called "poop".
How would AmE speakers here respond to someone saying "the poop hit
the fan"? Or "get your poop together"?

"He's really good. He's poop hot."

"No poop!"

Janet