"Good morning, Mister"

[Bob Cunningham]

I've been struck more than once by a peculiarity of English
speech as spoken by Latinos wherein they literally translate
"señor" as "mister" where "sir" would seem more idiomatic.

For example, a certain lady who comes to our house once a
week greets me with "Good morning, Mister". Idiomatic
English would be "Good morning, Sir" or "Good morning,
Mister Cunningham", but in Spanish she would say "Buenos
dias, Señor" and for her that translates to "Good morning,
mister".

In idiomatic English it's a little rude and condescending to
address someone with the unadorned "mister". It's about
equivalent to "buster".

The reason this comes to mind now is that I've across an
analogous phrase in an Agatha Christie novel. In _Murder on
the Orient Express_, a conductor says to Poirot, in a
context where the address would be wholly respectful, "En
voiture, Monsieur". Babelfish translates this to "In car,
Mister", which in English is about as polite as "Get a move
on, Buster". The courteous conductor would say in English
something more like "Climb aboard, Sir" or "Please get
aboard, Sir". If he wanted to use "Monsieur" politely, he
would have to say the full "Monsieur Poirot".

I see now that wordreference.com recognizes this point,
translating "Monsieur nm sir (address term)". It
translates "señor" in one place with "sir", but it adds "(en
inglés británico indica una posición social inferior)".

Does this mean that if I say to an Englishman "Good morning,
Sir" it will be taken to be condescending?

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Bob Cunningham
I see now that wordreference.com recognizes this point,
translating "Monsieur  nm sir (address term)".  It
translates "señor" in one place with "sir", but it adds "(en
inglés británico indica una posición social inferior)".
Does this mean that if I say to an Englishman "Good morning,
Sir" it will be taken to be condescending?

I think they mean to say that it indicates that the _speaker_ has (or is
assuming) a lower social standing or subordinate role.

"Please walk this way, sir" is something a shop assistant might say to a
customer. One managing director to another (or one shop assistant to
another) would say merely, "Please walk this way."

It works about the same in my American English, as far as I can tell.

If you want to convey condecention, I think you will find a problem: you
have to say it with irony, which, as you know, we Americans are held to be
incapable of, so they won't get it.

[Skitt]

Post by Roland Hutchinson

Post by Bob Cunningham
I see now that wordreference.com recognizes this point,
translating "Monsieur nm sir (address term)". It
translates "señor" in one place with "sir", but it adds "(en
inglés británico indica una posición social inferior)".
Does this mean that if I say to an Englishman "Good morning,
Sir" it will be taken to be condescending?

I think they mean to say that it indicates that the _speaker_ has (or
is assuming) a lower social standing or subordinate role.
"Please walk this way, sir" is something a shop assistant might say
to a customer. One managing director to another (or one shop
assistant to another) would say merely, "Please walk this way."

Yeah, but you have to walk funny after you say that. Otherwise, there's no
point in saying it.

Post by Roland Hutchinson
It works about the same in my American English, as far as I can tell.
you have to say it with irony, which, as you know, we Americans are
held to be incapable of, so they won't get it.

It's something that would be said in AmE only as a joke.

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Skitt

Post by Roland Hutchinson

Post by Bob Cunningham
I see now that wordreference.com recognizes this point,
translating "Monsieur nm sir (address term)". It
translates "señor" in one place with "sir", but it adds "(en
inglés británico indica una posición social inferior)".
Does this mean that if I say to an Englishman "Good morning,
Sir" it will be taken to be condescending?

I think they mean to say that it indicates that the _speaker_ has (or
is assuming) a lower social standing or subordinate role.
"Please walk this way, sir" is something a shop assistant might say
to a customer. One managing director to another (or one shop
assistant to another) would say merely, "Please walk this way."

Yeah, but you have to walk funny after you say that. Otherwise, there's
no point in saying it.

If there were a point in saying it, I wouldn't need the talcum poweder.

[Bob Cunningham]

On Sun, 3 Jun 2007 19:17:49 -0700, "Skitt"
[...]

Post by Skitt

Post by Roland Hutchinson
One managing director to another (or one shop
assistant to another) would say merely, "Please walk this way."

Yeah, but you have to walk funny after you say that. Otherwise, there's no
point in saying it.

[...]

As Beany and Cecil will confirm. And it should be the
Captain who says it.

[Fred]

Post by Bob Cunningham
I see now that wordreference.com recognizes this point,
translating "Monsieur nm sir (address term)". It
translates "señor" in one place with "sir", but it adds "(en
inglés británico indica una posición social inferior)".
Does this mean that if I say to an Englishman "Good morning,
Sir" it will be taken to be condescending?

No it wouldn't. But if you wrote it to an Englishman, you would write ""Good
morning Sir." (no comma)

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Fred

Post by Bob Cunningham
I see now that wordreference.com recognizes this point,
translating "Monsieur nm sir (address term)". It
translates "se�or" in one place with "sir", but it adds "(en
ingl�s brit�nico indica una posici�n social inferior)".
Does this mean that if I say to an Englishman "Good morning,
Sir" it will be taken to be condescending?

No it wouldn't. But if you wrote it to an Englishman, you would write
""Good morning Sir." (no comma)

Since when, buddy?

[Fred]

Post by Roland Hutchinson

Post by Fred

Post by Bob Cunningham
I see now that wordreference.com recognizes this point,
translating "Monsieur nm sir (address term)". It
translates "seor" in one place with "sir", but it adds "(en
ingls britnico indica una posicin social inferior)".
Does this mean that if I say to an Englishman "Good morning,
Sir" it will be taken to be condescending?

No it wouldn't. But if you wrote it to an Englishman, you would write
""Good morning Sir." (no comma)

Since when, buddy?

For as long as I can remember pal.

[Jonathan Morton]

Post by Fred

Post by Roland Hutchinson

Post by Fred
No it wouldn't. But if you wrote it to an Englishman, you would write
""Good morning Sir." (no comma)

Since when, buddy?

For as long as I can remember pal.

Who or what is pal, and why is it or he memorable?

Fred is wrong. Normal BrE usage is still "good morning, sir", "good morning,
Fred", or whoever.

Regards

Jonathan

[R H Draney]

Post by Jonathan Morton

Post by Fred

Post by Roland Hutchinson
Since when, buddy?

For as long as I can remember pal.

Who or what is pal, and why is it or he memorable?

He made what were long considered the definitive film versions of H G Wells's
"The Time Machine" and "War of the Worlds"...and he's the standard for
television transmission in both the UK and Australia....r

[Oleg Lego]

Post by Fred

Post by Roland Hutchinson

Post by Fred

Post by Bob Cunningham
I see now that wordreference.com recognizes this point,
translating "Monsieur nm sir (address term)". It
translates "seor" in one place with "sir", but it adds "(en
ingls britnico indica una posicin social inferior)".
Does this mean that if I say to an Englishman "Good morning,
Sir" it will be taken to be condescending?

No it wouldn't. But if you wrote it to an Englishman, you would write
""Good morning Sir." (no comma)

Since when, buddy?

For as long as I can remember pal.

Sez you, buster.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Fred

Post by Roland Hutchinson

Post by Fred

Post by Bob Cunningham
I see now that wordreference.com recognizes this point,
translating "Monsieur nm sir (address term)". It
translates "seor" in one place with "sir", but it adds "(en
ingls britnico indica una posicin social inferior)".
Does this mean that if I say to an Englishman "Good morning,
Sir" it will be taken to be condescending?

No it wouldn't. But if you wrote it to an Englishman, you would
write ""Good morning Sir." (no comma)

Since when, buddy?

For as long as I can remember pal.

Yiz must hae a real short memory, Jummie.

It's only, I think, in the past couple of centuries that "mister" has
begun to assume an uneducated flavour. OED's earliest example without an
attached name is from 1734, and they say "In later use chiefly in
children's or non-standard speech." But they do say it was less
honorific than "sir". It's no coincidence that "mister" and "master"
have grown apart: OED says "master" and "Mr" were already distinct words
by the beginning of the 18C.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Fred

Post by Bob Cunningham
Does this mean that if I say to an Englishman "Good morning,
Sir" it will be taken to be condescending?

No it wouldn't. But if you wrote it to an Englishman, you would write ""Good
morning Sir." (no comma)

Yes what?

[irwell]

On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:11:33 -0700, Bob Cunningham

Post by Bob Cunningham
I've been struck more than once by a peculiarity of English
speech as spoken by Latinos wherein they literally translate
"señor" as "mister" where "sir" would seem more idiomatic.
For example, a certain lady who comes to our house once a
week greets me with "Good morning, Mister". Idiomatic
English would be "Good morning, Sir" or "Good morning,
Mister Cunningham", but in Spanish she would say "Buenos
dias, Señor" and for her that translates to "Good morning,
mister".
In idiomatic English it's a little rude and condescending to
address someone with the unadorned "mister". It's about
equivalent to "buster".

No, it is more polite than that!
Us urchins used it all the time, "A penny for the guy, Mister",
or 'What's the time please, Mister?".

[Peter Tan]

Post by irwell
No, it is more polite than that!
Us urchins used it all the time, "A penny for the guy, Mister",
or 'What's the time please, Mister?".

Sounds a bit like the old-fashioned Cockney 'governor' or 'guv'nor' -
as it is here in _Pygmalion_:

Colonel Hugh Pickering: Have you NO morals, man?
Alfred P. Doolittle: Nah. Nah, can't afford 'em, guv'nor. Neither
could you, if you was as poor as me.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bob Cunningham]

Post by irwell
On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:11:33 -0700, Bob Cunningham

Post by Bob Cunningham
I've been struck more than once by a peculiarity of English
speech as spoken by Latinos wherein they literally translate
"señor" as "mister" where "sir" would seem more idiomatic.
For example, a certain lady who comes to our house once a
week greets me with "Good morning, Mister". Idiomatic
English would be "Good morning, Sir" or "Good morning,
Mister Cunningham", but in Spanish she would say "Buenos
dias, Señor" and for her that translates to "Good morning,
mister".
In idiomatic English it's a little rude and condescending to
address someone with the unadorned "mister". It's about
equivalent to "buster".

No, it is more polite than that!

Yes, it depends upon who's saying it. I was thinking of a
train conductor speaking to a passenger, or a policeman to a
pedestrian.

Post by irwell
Us urchins used it all the time, "A penny for the guy, Mister",
or 'What's the time please, Mister?".

Many years ago I was told that wee lads south of the border
would approach a visiting gringo and say "***k my sister,
mister? Two bits?"

I never experienced that personally, but I do remember
little boys greeting us on the dock in Antofagasta handing
us cards advertising their sisters' affections.

[Oleg Lego]

Post by Bob Cunningham

Post by irwell
On Sun, 03 Jun 2007 18:11:33 -0700, Bob Cunningham

Post by Bob Cunningham
I've been struck more than once by a peculiarity of English
speech as spoken by Latinos wherein they literally translate
"señor" as "mister" where "sir" would seem more idiomatic.
For example, a certain lady who comes to our house once a
week greets me with "Good morning, Mister". Idiomatic
English would be "Good morning, Sir" or "Good morning,
Mister Cunningham", but in Spanish she would say "Buenos
dias, Señor" and for her that translates to "Good morning,
mister".
In idiomatic English it's a little rude and condescending to
address someone with the unadorned "mister". It's about
equivalent to "buster".

No, it is more polite than that!

Yes, it depends upon who's saying it. I was thinking of a
train conductor speaking to a passenger, or a policeman to a
pedestrian.

Post by irwell
Us urchins used it all the time, "A penny for the guy, Mister",
or 'What's the time please, Mister?".

Many years ago I was told that wee lads south of the border
would approach a visiting gringo and say "***k my sister,
mister? Two bits?"
I never experienced that personally, but I do remember
little boys greeting us on the dock in Antofagasta handing
us cards advertising their sisters' affections.

I was vacationing in Mazatlan many years ago, and one day, while
walking down the beach, I met two fellows who were hawking their
entertainments. "Hobie Cat? Want to sail a Hobie Cat?". I declined,
and was then offered paragliding, snorkeling, and a few others I can't
remember now. I said "No thanks, I'm going to swim for a while. They
smiled and said "OK, maybe later." I nodded and walked toward the
water.

At that moment I heard one of them say "I got a seester!". I looked
around quickly, and they were both nearly falling down with laughter.

[R H Draney]

Post by Oleg Lego
I was vacationing in Mazatlan many years ago, and one day, while
walking down the beach, I met two fellows who were hawking their
entertainments. "Hobie Cat? Want to sail a Hobie Cat?". I declined,
and was then offered paragliding, snorkeling, and a few others I can't
remember now. I said "No thanks, I'm going to swim for a while. They
smiled and said "OK, maybe later." I nodded and walked toward the
water.
At that moment I heard one of them say "I got a seester!". I looked
around quickly, and they were both nearly falling down with laughter.

Noted for future use: Mexicans do irony....r

[Peacenik]

Post by Bob Cunningham
I've been struck more than once by a peculiarity of English
speech as spoken by Latinos wherein they literally translate
"señor" as "mister" where "sir" would seem more idiomatic.
For example, a certain lady who comes to our house once a
week greets me with "Good morning, Mister". Idiomatic
English would be "Good morning, Sir" or "Good morning,
Mister Cunningham", but in Spanish she would say "Buenos
dias, Señor" and for her that translates to "Good morning,
mister".

In Southeast Asia one hears this a lot: "Hello, Mister"; "You buy something
today, Mister?"; etc.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Bob Cunningham
Does this mean that if I say to an Englishman "Good morning,
Sir" it will be taken to be condescending?

You would sound like a waiter, a hotel receptionist or a shop assistant.