Discussion:
Scot, Scottish, Scotsman
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Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-07 07:24:31 UTC
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I am not entirely sure which word to use when describing something
related to Scotland, especially what the inhabitants are called.

When I was a boy, there was a cigarette named "Scotsman" with a picture
of a Scot/Scotsman in full uniform. What are the people called?

Is there any difference between "Scots" and "Scottish"?

Are there other relevant words?
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Hibou
2024-11-07 08:12:11 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am not entirely sure which word to use when describing something
related to Scotland, especially what the inhabitants are called.
When I was a boy, there was a cigarette named "Scotsman" with a picture
of a Scot/Scotsman in full uniform. What are the people called?
Is there any difference between "Scots" and "Scottish"?
Are there other relevant words?
Though not a Scot, I'll take the risk of answering; Janet will no doubt
pass by later. Usage has changed over the years, and 'Scotch' is now
applied to fewer things - whisky, mist, pies... - and not to human beings.

A Scot can be either sex, a Scotsman has to be male (don't let the few
who wear skirts deceive you), and a Scotswoman female (don't let the
many who wear trousers fool you; it's an adaptation to the climate).

On the other hand, I think one would use female pronouns with the
locomotive the Flying Scotsman.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_A3_4472_Flying_Scotsman>

As an adjective, Scots is less formal than Scottish, I should say. It's
the Scottish Government, but either Scots Gaelic or Scottish Gaelic
would pass.

And so on. If in doubt, try an Ngram, e.g.:

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Scotsman%2CScotchman&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=en-GB&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false>
HVS
2024-11-07 14:45:50 UTC
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Post by Hibou
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am not entirely sure which word to use when describing
something related to Scotland, especially what the inhabitants
are called.
When I was a boy, there was a cigarette named "Scotsman" with a
picture of a Scot/Scotsman in full uniform. What are the people
called?
Is there any difference between "Scots" and "Scottish"?
Are there other relevant words?
Though not a Scot, I'll take the risk of answering; Janet will no
doubt pass by later. Usage has changed over the years, and
'Scotch' is now applied to fewer things - whisky, mist, pies... -
and not to human beings.
A Scot can be either sex, a Scotsman has to be male (don't let the
few who wear skirts deceive you), and a Scotswoman female (don't
let the many who wear trousers fool you; it's an adaptation to the
climate).
On the other hand, I think one would use female pronouns with the
locomotive the Flying Scotsman.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_A3_4472_Flying_Scotsman>
As an adjective, Scots is less formal than Scottish, I should say.
It's the Scottish Government, but either Scots Gaelic or Scottish
Gaelic would pass.
"Scots" is also a noun -- the name of a distinct language or a
dialect (a contentious and politically-charged issue, I believe), and
one of a number of languages/dialects which include Lowland Scots,
Ulster Scots, Border Scots, and undoubtedly a few more.

From https://www.scotland.org/about-scotland/culture/language

(quote)

Scots

Whereas Gaelic was the dominant language in the Highlands and Islands
of Scotland, the Lowlands of Scotland adopted the language of Scots.
As opposed to Gaelic, the Scots language is much closer in style to
that of English and debate has raged for many years as to whether
it's a separate language or a dialect. Today, the UK government
accepts Scots as a regional language and recognised it under the
European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages.

(end quote)

Various other websites describe Scots as an "Anglic language variety
in the West Germanic language family".
--
Cheers, Harvey
Steve Hayes
2024-11-08 13:04:55 UTC
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Post by Hibou
On the other hand, I think one would use female pronouns with the
locomotive the Flying Scotsman.
Oh dear! It looks as though the sexualisation of gender is complete.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Janet
2024-11-08 13:53:02 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Hibou
On the other hand, I think one would use female pronouns with the
locomotive the Flying Scotsman.
Oh dear! It looks as though the sexualisation of gender is complete.
why not, it's public trans-port.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Scotsman_
(railway_service)

"The Flying Scotswoman

"To celebrate International Women?s Day on 6 March 2020,
LNER rebranded the service the Flying Scotswoman for a
month. On 6 March 2020 the service was staffed entirely by
women, displayed a special International Women's Day
livery and hosted a range of women from a variety of
organisations in the rail industry as well as from LNER."


Janet.
Sam Plusnet
2024-11-08 18:35:42 UTC
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Post by Janet
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Hibou
On the other hand, I think one would use female pronouns with the
locomotive the Flying Scotsman.
Oh dear! It looks as though the sexualisation of gender is complete.
why not, it's public trans-port.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Scotsman_
(railway_service)
"The Flying Scotswoman
"To celebrate International Women?s Day on 6 March 2020,
LNER rebranded the service the Flying Scotswoman for a
month. On 6 March 2020 the service was staffed entirely by
women, displayed a special International Women's Day
livery and hosted a range of women from a variety of
organisations in the rail industry as well as from LNER."
To celebrate "International Women's _Day_" by rebranding the service for
a month strikes me as a mismatch.

Today, Amazon informed me that "Black Friday" will last from the 21st of
November to the 2nd of December.
Will their employees get more than a single day's pay for working on
that "Friday"?
--
Sam Plusnet
Steve Hayes
2024-11-09 04:31:21 UTC
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Post by Janet
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Hibou
On the other hand, I think one would use female pronouns with the
locomotive the Flying Scotsman.
Oh dear! It looks as though the sexualisation of gender is complete.
why not, it's public trans-port.
I'm not sure what that has to do with it.

I was more concerned about pronouns having sex.

How long before they're having orgies?

It's a slippery slope, you know.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-09 06:49:26 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Janet
Post by Steve Hayes
Oh dear! It looks as though the sexualisation of gender is complete.
why not, it's public trans-port.
I'm not sure what that has to do with it.
I think you were whooshed.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Steve Hayes
2024-11-09 08:06:54 UTC
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On Sat, 9 Nov 2024 07:49:26 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Janet
Post by Steve Hayes
Oh dear! It looks as though the sexualisation of gender is complete.
why not, it's public trans-port.
I'm not sure what that has to do with it.
I think you were whooshed.
I think Janet was whooshed, but I was trying to be polite and not say
so.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Hibou
2024-11-09 08:56:59 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
[...]
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Janet
Post by Steve Hayes
Oh dear! It looks as though the sexualisation of gender is complete.
why not, it's public trans-port.
I'm not sure what that has to do with it.
I think you were whooshed.
I think Janet was whooshed, but I was trying to be polite and not say
so.
I took her remark as a joke about transgenderism - which is a live topic
in Scotland, because our government at Holyrood has some controversial
ideas on the subject.
Janet
2024-11-09 12:28:34 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Janet
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Hibou
On the other hand, I think one would use female pronouns with the
locomotive the Flying Scotsman.
Oh dear! It looks as though the sexualisation of gender is complete.
why not, it's public trans-port.
I'm not sure what that has to do with it.
I was more concerned about pronouns having sex.
You're too late, him and her didn't use a condom and
and spawned

e/em/eirs
hie/hym/hiz
ne/nem/nears
tey/tem/ters
xe/xem/xers
ze/hir/hirs



Janet
Sam Plusnet
2024-11-09 18:09:17 UTC
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Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Janet
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Hibou
On the other hand, I think one would use female pronouns with the
locomotive the Flying Scotsman.
Oh dear! It looks as though the sexualisation of gender is complete.
why not, it's public trans-port.
I'm not sure what that has to do with it.
I was more concerned about pronouns having sex.
How long before they're having orgies?
It's a slippery slope, you know.
Slippery is good, if you are having an orgy.
(Or so I have been told.)
--
Sam Plusnet
Hibou
2024-11-09 08:44:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Steve Hayes
[...]
Post by Hibou
On the other hand, I think one would use female pronouns with the
locomotive the Flying Scotsman.
Oh dear! It looks as though the sexualisation of gender is complete.
why not, it's public trans-port.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Scotsman_
(railway_service)
"The Flying Scotswoman
"To celebrate International Women?s Day on 6 March 2020,
LNER rebranded the service the Flying Scotswoman for a
month. On 6 March 2020 the service was staffed entirely by
women, displayed a special International Women's Day
livery and hosted a range of women from a variety of
organisations in the rail industry as well as from LNER."
Yes, I deliberately chose the locomotive and not the train. It's been
usual for men who have intimate relationships with machines to call them
'she', even if those machines are named after men. I think Scotty warned
often enough of the Enterprise that "She'll no' take it, captain!" - and
this Wikipedia article, for example, uses 'she' to refer to HMS Hood,
named after Admiral Samuel Hood:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Hood> :

"HMS Hood (pennant number 51) was a battlecruiser of the Royal Navy
(RN). Hood was the first of the planned four Admiral-class
battlecruisers to be built during the First World War. Already under
construction when the Battle of Jutland occurred in mid-1916, that
battle revealed serious flaws in /her/ design, and despite drastic
revisions /she/ was completed four years later." [My emphasis]
Madhu
2024-11-07 15:53:26 UTC
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Le 07/11/2024 à 07:24, Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am not entirely sure which word to use when describing something
related to Scotland, especially what the inhabitants are called.
When I was a boy, there was a cigarette named "Scotsman" with a picture
of a Scot/Scotsman in full uniform. What are the people called?
Is there any difference between "Scots" and "Scottish"?
Are there other relevant words?
Though not a Scot, I'll take the risk of answering; Janet will no
doubt pass by later. Usage has changed over the years, and 'Scotch' is
now applied to fewer things - whisky, mist, pies... - and not to human
beings.
prrraps to things which usually have feminine gender in languages where
nouns have gender.

At the turn of the last century I think "scotchman" and "scotch-woman"
were used in equal measure.

"Mrs. Hudson has risen to the occasion," said Holmes, uncovering a
dish of curried chicken. "Her cuisine is a little limited, but she
has as good an idea of breakfast as a Scotch-woman. What have you
here, Watson?"

even when imitating earlier usage:

[...] "I recollected that there is no Emergency beyond the Power
of a Resolute Englishwoman, especially if she is Scotch, and
took heart from the lesson enjoined by our dominie[...]."

(/Flashman's Lady/ George MacDonald Fraser, 1977)
A Scot can be either sex, a Scotsman has to be male (don't let the few
who wear skirts deceive you), and a Scotswoman female (don't let the
many who wear trousers fool you; it's an adaptation to the climate).
On the other hand, I think one would use female pronouns with the
locomotive the Flying Scotsman.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LNER_Class_A3_4472_Flying_Scotsman>
As an adjective, Scots is less formal than Scottish, I should
say. It's the Scottish Government, but either Scots Gaelic or Scottish
Gaelic would pass.
Sam Plusnet
2024-11-07 18:23:05 UTC
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Post by Hibou
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am not entirely sure which word to use when describing something
related to Scotland, especially what the inhabitants are called.
When I was a boy, there was a cigarette named "Scotsman" with a picture
of a Scot/Scotsman in full uniform. What are the people called?
Is there any difference between "Scots" and "Scottish"?
Are there other relevant words?
Though not a Scot, I'll take the risk of answering; Janet will no doubt
pass by later. Usage has changed over the years, and 'Scotch' is now
applied to fewer things - whisky, mist, pies... - and not to human beings.
Shakespeare used it when talking about (presumably Scottish) snakes, but
he meant something quite different.
--
Sam Plusnet
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-07 08:23:48 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am not entirely sure which word to use when describing something
related to Scotland, especially what the inhabitants are called.
When I was a boy, there was a cigarette named "Scotsman" with a picture
of a Scot/Scotsman in full uniform. What are the people called?
Is there any difference between "Scots" and "Scottish"?
"Scots" as an adjective is used mainly in Scotland. When I were a lad
the equivalent in England was "Scotch", but that is frowned on
nowadays, so we say "Scottish". We do say "Scotsman", however.
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Are there other relevant words?
I'm not sure what you mean by relevant, but there are also

Englishman
Welshman
Irishman
Manxman
Frenchman
Dutchman
Chinaman (not used today)

I don't think there are any others. "German" doesn't count.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Silvano
2024-11-07 09:22:54 UTC
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Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Are there other relevant words?
I'm not sure what you mean by relevant,
I'm not Bertel, but I'm pretty sure he's asking if there are any other
words used in English when describing something related to Scotland,
e.g. Alba, the Scottish Gaelic name for Scotland used among others by
<https://www.bbc.com/alba>.

Question to Peter and Aidan: do you understand something of what you can
read there?
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-07 09:46:36 UTC
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Post by Silvano
I'm not Bertel, but I'm pretty sure he's asking if there are any other
words used in English when describing something related to Scotland,
e.g. Alba, the Scottish Gaelic name for Scotland used among others by
<https://www.bbc.com/alba>.
I have never heard "Alba" before, and I have even been to Scotland (many
years ago).
Post by Silvano
Question to Peter and Aidan: do you understand something of what you can
read there?
I am at a total loss.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Janet
2024-11-07 11:34:41 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Silvano
I'm not Bertel, but I'm pretty sure he's asking if there are any other
words used in English when describing something related to Scotland,
e.g. Alba, the Scottish Gaelic name for Scotland used among others by
<https://www.bbc.com/alba>.
I have never heard "Alba" before, and I have even been to Scotland (many
years ago).
How about "Caledonia " ?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia

Janet
Adam Funk
2024-11-07 12:04:45 UTC
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Post by Janet
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Silvano
I'm not Bertel, but I'm pretty sure he's asking if there are any other
words used in English when describing something related to Scotland,
e.g. Alba, the Scottish Gaelic name for Scotland used among others by
<https://www.bbc.com/alba>.
I have never heard "Alba" before, and I have even been to Scotland (many
years ago).
How about "Caledonia " ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia
Yet the new one belongs (more or less) to France!
--
A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read.
---Mark Twain
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-07 14:02:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Janet
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Silvano
I'm not Bertel, but I'm pretty sure he's asking if there are any other
words used in English when describing something related to Scotland,
e.g. Alba, the Scottish Gaelic name for Scotland used among others by
<https://www.bbc.com/alba>.
I have never heard "Alba" before, and I have even been to Scotland (many
years ago).
How about "Caledonia " ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia
Yet the new one belongs (more or less) to France!
For the moment, anyway.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
jerryfriedman
2024-11-07 14:23:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Janet
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Silvano
I'm not Bertel, but I'm pretty sure he's asking if there are any other
words used in English when describing something related to Scotland,
e.g. Alba, the Scottish Gaelic name for Scotland used among others by
<https://www.bbc.com/alba>.
I have never heard "Alba" before, and I have even been to Scotland (many
years ago).
How about "Caledonia " ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia
Yet the new one belongs (more or less) to France!
And the new Scotia belongs to Canada. Do you suppose
that means they're the same place? During my brief
visit there, it never occurred to me to look for
Kagus.

--
Jerry Friedman

--
Adam Funk
2024-11-08 12:40:20 UTC
Reply
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Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Janet
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Silvano
I'm not Bertel, but I'm pretty sure he's asking if there are any other
words used in English when describing something related to Scotland,
e.g. Alba, the Scottish Gaelic name for Scotland used among others by
<https://www.bbc.com/alba>.
I have never heard "Alba" before, and I have even been to Scotland (many
years ago).
How about "Caledonia " ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia
Yet the new one belongs (more or less) to France!
And the new Scotia belongs to Canada. Do you suppose
that means they're the same place? During my brief
visit there, it never occurred to me to look for
Kagus.
This prompted me to check another geographical oddity. The distance
from Glasgow to Edinburg (no h) in Virginia is a bit more than twice
the distance from Glasgow to Edinburgh in Scotland.
--
So you think I got an evil mind
Well I'll tell you honey
And I don't know why
And I don't know why
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-08 13:54:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Janet
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Silvano
I'm not Bertel, but I'm pretty sure he's asking if there are any other
words used in English when describing something related to Scotland,
e.g. Alba, the Scottish Gaelic name for Scotland used among others by
<https://www.bbc.com/alba>.
I have never heard "Alba" before, and I have even been to Scotland (many
years ago).
How about "Caledonia " ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia
Yet the new one belongs (more or less) to France!
And the new Scotia belongs to Canada. Do you suppose
that means they're the same place? During my brief
visit there, it never occurred to me to look for
Kagus.
This prompted me to check another geographical oddity. The distance
from Glasgow to Edinburg (no h) in Virginia is a bit more than twice
the distance from Glasgow to Edinburgh in Scotland.
That the Scottish example is one that used to surprise me a lot: so
near and yet so far.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Adam Funk
2024-11-08 14:44:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Janet
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Silvano
I'm not Bertel, but I'm pretty sure he's asking if there are any other
words used in English when describing something related to Scotland,
e.g. Alba, the Scottish Gaelic name for Scotland used among others by
<https://www.bbc.com/alba>.
I have never heard "Alba" before, and I have even been to Scotland (many
years ago).
How about "Caledonia " ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia
Yet the new one belongs (more or less) to France!
And the new Scotia belongs to Canada. Do you suppose
that means they're the same place? During my brief
visit there, it never occurred to me to look for
Kagus.
This prompted me to check another geographical oddity. The distance
from Glasgow to Edinburg (no h) in Virginia is a bit more than twice
the distance from Glasgow to Edinburgh in Scotland.
That the Scottish example is one that used to surprise me a lot: so
near and yet so far.
BTW, those are driving distances I lazily got from Google Maps (46.5
miles in Scotland; 105 miles in Virginia). The crow-flight in VA is
probably not a lot shorter than that, whereas the M8 looks a bit
bendier on the map.
--
The [music] business would be a good thing, except that it's
dominated by drug addicts and businessmen. ---Tom Scholz
Peter Moylan
2024-11-08 23:19:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
This prompted me to check another geographical oddity. The
distance from Glasgow to Edinburg (no h) in Virginia is a bit more
than twice the distance from Glasgow to Edinburgh in Scotland.
That the Scottish example is one that used to surprise me a lot: so
near and yet so far.
When I finally got to visit Scotland I was amazed to discover that
Edinburgh and Glasgow are, by my standards, practically next door to
each other. Yet the two cities have different social attitudes and even
speak different languages.

On that trip we met someone who lives halfway between Edinburgh and
Glasgow. Apparently she is equally despised by both groups.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Silvano
2024-11-09 00:20:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
This prompted me to check another geographical oddity. The
distance from Glasgow to Edinburg (no h) in Virginia is a bit more
than twice the distance from Glasgow to Edinburgh in Scotland.
That the Scottish example is one that used to surprise me a lot: so
near and yet so far.
When I finally got to visit Scotland I was amazed to discover that
Edinburgh and Glasgow are, by my standards, practically next door to
each other. Yet the two cities have different social attitudes and even
speak different languages.
On that trip we met someone who lives halfway between Edinburgh and
Glasgow. Apparently she is equally despised by both groups.
Not sure about population movements between Edinburgh and Glasgow, and
Janet and (I guess) Hibou know much better than the rest of us about it,
but I guess that most people living in e.g. Skye and Arbroath descend
from people who already lived there 250 years ago. How many Australians
can say that about themselves, if we do not count Aboriginals?

Old countries had more time to develop language differences. Compare the
differences among Aboriginal languages to those among Spanish speakers
in Latin America or the Russian dialects in the small area between Saint
Petersburg and Vladivostok.
Peter Moylan
2024-11-09 03:39:11 UTC
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Post by Silvano
Not sure about population movements between Edinburgh and Glasgow,
and Janet and (I guess) Hibou know much better than the rest of us
about it, but I guess that most people living in e.g. Skye and
Arbroath descend from people who already lived there 250 years ago.
How many Australians can say that about themselves, if we do not
count Aboriginals?
I am, of course, descended from people who were willing to relocate. I
sometimes wonder whether that is a heritable attribute. Certainly many
Australians, perhaps even a majority, no longer live near where they
were born. My own close relatives are scattered all over the place. I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-09 07:02:50 UTC
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Post by Peter Moylan
I am, of course, descended from people who were willing to relocate. I
sometimes wonder whether that is a heritable attribute. Certainly many
Australians, perhaps even a majority, no longer live near where they
were born. My own close relatives are scattered all over the place. I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
I couldn't move that far without leaving Denmark. It could take me to
northern Italy or in the other direction to the northern part of
Norway/Sweden/Finland.

I now live 85 kilometers from the place where I grew up, and that is the
greatest distance that I have moved (in a straight line), but I live
only 11 kilometers from where I was borne.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Garrett Wollman
2024-11-09 16:40:02 UTC
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Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Peter Moylan
I am, of course, descended from people who were willing to relocate. I
sometimes wonder whether that is a heritable attribute. Certainly many
Australians, perhaps even a majority, no longer live near where they
were born. My own close relatives are scattered all over the place. I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
I couldn't move that far without leaving Denmark. It could take me to
northern Italy or in the other direction to the northern part of
Norway/Sweden/Finland.
Since I went to college, my parents have moved from Vermont to Nevada
to North Carolina to (separately, for work) California and Rhode
Island to Massachusetts to California again to Texas to Alabama. They
were spending winter in Mexico (because it was too cold in Texas) when
the pandemic hit, and now they're looking at the possibility of
Belize.

My parents were born about ten miles from each other in Connecticut.
I was born in Virginia, lost my southern accent right quick when we
moved to Yankeedom. (But growing up in Vermont I always knew I would
be a "flatlander" to the natives.)

I wouldn't care to add up all of those miles (and that's not even
counting the regular trips back to Connecticut for family events).

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Peter Moylan
2024-11-09 23:49:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
My parents were born about ten miles from each other in Connecticut.
I was born in Virginia, lost my southern accent right quick when we
moved to Yankeedom. (But growing up in Vermont I always knew I
would be a "flatlander" to the natives.)
Our family moved to another town (in the same state) when my father was
about 30 years old. He remained there until he died at 90. He was
well-known in the town, being active in things like service clubs and
church management. But to the locals he was always a foreigner. That
bothered him, I think.

Some people call me a Victorian, although I left Victoria 56 years ago.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-10 08:13:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Our family moved to another town (in the same state) when my father was
about 30 years old. He remained there until he died at 90. He was
well-known in the town, being active in things like service clubs and
church management. But to the locals he was always a foreigner. That
bothered him, I think.
Some people call me a Victorian, although I left Victoria 56 years ago.
Are you sure that it's a location thing and not an attitude thing?
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Peter Moylan
2024-11-10 11:04:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Peter Moylan
Our family moved to another town (in the same state) when my father
was about 30 years old. He remained there until he died at 90. He
was well-known in the town, being active in things like service
clubs and church management. But to the locals he was always a
foreigner. That bothered him, I think.
Some people call me a Victorian, although I left Victoria 56 years ago.
Are you sure that it's a location thing and not an attitude thing?
After living here for so long, I must certainly have NSW attitudes. I
must admit, though, that my wife accuses me of pronouncing "Newcastle"
with a Victorian accent.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-09 08:16:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Silvano
Not sure about population movements between Edinburgh and Glasgow,
and Janet and (I guess) Hibou know much better than the rest of us
about it, but I guess that most people living in e.g. Skye and
Arbroath descend from people who already lived there 250 years ago.
How many Australians can say that about themselves, if we do not
count Aboriginals?
I am, of course, descended from people who were willing to relocate. I
sometimes wonder whether that is a heritable attribute. Certainly many
Australians, perhaps even a majority, no longer live near where they
were born. My own close relatives are scattered all over the place. I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
I'm also one and a quarter megametres from where I was born, but in my
case I have a fifth of a megametre of sea to cross.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Snidely
2024-11-09 10:01:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Silvano
Not sure about population movements between Edinburgh and Glasgow,
and Janet and (I guess) Hibou know much better than the rest of us
about it, but I guess that most people living in e.g. Skye and
Arbroath descend from people who already lived there 250 years ago.
How many Australians can say that about themselves, if we do not
count Aboriginals?
I am, of course, descended from people who were willing to relocate. I
sometimes wonder whether that is a heritable attribute. Certainly many
Australians, perhaps even a majority, no longer live near where they
were born. My own close relatives are scattered all over the place. I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
I'm a mere 1.5 Mm from my natal environs, about 14 hours by car.
Slight farther to where I grew up.

/dps
--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15
jerryfriedman
2024-11-10 02:23:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Silvano
Not sure about population movements between Edinburgh and Glasgow,
and Janet and (I guess) Hibou know much better than the rest of us
about it, but I guess that most people living in e.g. Skye and
Arbroath descend from people who already lived there 250 years ago.
How many Australians can say that about themselves, if we do not
count Aboriginals?
I am, of course, descended from people who were willing to relocate. I
sometimes wonder whether that is a heritable attribute. Certainly many
Australians, perhaps even a majority, no longer live near where they
were born. My own close relatives are scattered all over the place. I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
I'm a mere 1.5 Mm from my natal environs, about 14 hours by car.
Slight farther to where I grew up.
2.6 Mm. There are some detectable differences in culture,
including language.

If Stoat shows up, he'll have the record.

--
Jerry Friedman

--
Anders D. Nygaard
2024-11-10 09:47:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Silvano
Not sure about population movements between Edinburgh and Glasgow,
and Janet and (I guess) Hibou know much better than the rest of us
about it, but I guess that most people living in e.g. Skye and
Arbroath descend from people who already lived there 250 years ago.
How many Australians can say that about themselves, if we do not
count Aboriginals?
I am, of course, descended from people who were willing to relocate. I
sometimes wonder whether that is a heritable attribute. Certainly many
Australians, perhaps even a majority, no longer live near where they
were born. My own close relatives are scattered all over the place. I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
I'm a mere 1.5 Mm from my natal environs, about 14 hours by car. Slight
farther to where I grew up.
I spent a couple of years 1.8 Mm from my place of birth, but other than
than, I've relocated less than 0.05 Mm, and currently live about a third
of that distance from where I was born.

/Anders, Denmark
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-11-11 11:33:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sun, 10 Nov 2024 10:47:14 +0100
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Silvano
Not sure about population movements between Edinburgh and Glasgow,
and Janet and (I guess) Hibou know much better than the rest of us
about it, but I guess that most people living in e.g. Skye and
Arbroath descend from people who already lived there 250 years ago.
How many Australians can say that about themselves, if we do not
count Aboriginals?
I am, of course, descended from people who were willing to relocate. I
sometimes wonder whether that is a heritable attribute. Certainly many
Australians, perhaps even a majority, no longer live near where they
were born. My own close relatives are scattered all over the place. I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
I'm a mere 1.5 Mm from my natal environs, about 14 hours by car. Slight
farther to where I grew up.
I spent a couple of years 1.8 Mm from my place of birth, but other than
than, I've relocated less than 0.05 Mm, and currently live about a third
of that distance from where I was born.
Before the arrival of the locomotive, most folk barely travelled further than 20 miles from home. OK cyclists and reindeer herders etc. excepted.

I heard first-hand from a fellow whose grandfather had walked from Devon to the mining valleys of South Wales to get work.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-11 15:36:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Sun, 10 Nov 2024 10:47:14 +0100
Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Silvano
Not sure about population movements between Edinburgh and Glasgow,
and Janet and (I guess) Hibou know much better than the rest of us
about it, but I guess that most people living in e.g. Skye and
Arbroath descend from people who already lived there 250 years ago.
How many Australians can say that about themselves, if we do not
count Aboriginals?
I am, of course, descended from people who were willing to relocate. I
sometimes wonder whether that is a heritable attribute. Certainly many
Australians, perhaps even a majority, no longer live near where they
were born. My own close relatives are scattered all over the place. I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
I'm a mere 1.5 Mm from my natal environs, about 14 hours by car. Slight
farther to where I grew up.
I spent a couple of years 1.8 Mm from my place of birth, but other than
than, I've relocated less than 0.05 Mm, and currently live about a third
of that distance from where I was born.
Before the arrival of the locomotive, most folk barely travelled
further than 20 miles from home. OK cyclists and reindeer herders etc.
excepted.
I heard first-hand from a fellow whose grandfather had walked from
Devon to the mining valleys of South Wales to get work.
A generation or more earlier he could have found a tin mine to work in.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Adam Funk
2024-11-11 12:56:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Silvano
Not sure about population movements between Edinburgh and Glasgow,
and Janet and (I guess) Hibou know much better than the rest of us
about it, but I guess that most people living in e.g. Skye and
Arbroath descend from people who already lived there 250 years ago.
How many Australians can say that about themselves, if we do not
count Aboriginals?
I am, of course, descended from people who were willing to relocate. I
I'm not trying to make a tired joke about Australians, but ISTR a lot
of people were relocated to Australia unwillingly.
Post by Peter Moylan
sometimes wonder whether that is a heritable attribute. Certainly many
Australians, perhaps even a majority, no longer live near where they
were born. My own close relatives are scattered all over the place. I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
5.9 Mm for me. Just out of curiosity, how did you calculate that? I
used geographiclib in Python (which I've previously used for
geocaching calculations).
--
From east of Needles to eternity,
Space truckin', son, ain't what it used to be
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-11 16:29:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Silvano
Not sure about population movements between Edinburgh and Glasgow,
and Janet and (I guess) Hibou know much better than the rest of us
about it, but I guess that most people living in e.g. Skye and
Arbroath descend from people who already lived there 250 years ago.
How many Australians can say that about themselves, if we do not
count Aboriginals?
I am, of course, descended from people who were willing to relocate. I
I'm not trying to make a tired joke about Australians, but ISTR a lot
of people were relocated to Australia unwillingly.
Post by Peter Moylan
sometimes wonder whether that is a heritable attribute. Certainly many
Australians, perhaps even a majority, no longer live near where they
were born. My own close relatives are scattered all over the place. I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
5.9 Mm for me.
My wife has you beaten. For her it's about 11.5 Mm.
Post by Adam Funk
Just out of curiosity, how did you calculate that? I
used geographiclib in Python (which I've previously used for
geocaching calculations).
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
J. J. Lodder
2024-11-11 21:22:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Silvano
Not sure about population movements between Edinburgh and Glasgow,
and Janet and (I guess) Hibou know much better than the rest of us
about it, but I guess that most people living in e.g. Skye and
Arbroath descend from people who already lived there 250 years ago.
How many Australians can say that about themselves, if we do not
count Aboriginals?
I am, of course, descended from people who were willing to relocate. I
I'm not trying to make a tired joke about Australians, but ISTR a lot
of people were relocated to Australia unwillingly.
Post by Peter Moylan
sometimes wonder whether that is a heritable attribute. Certainly many
Australians, perhaps even a majority, no longer live near where they
were born. My own close relatives are scattered all over the place. I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
5.9 Mm for me.
My wife has you beaten. For her it's about 11.5 Mm.
The original metric system had the Myriameter, for 10 000 meter.
It never caught on, and was finally abolished sometime after WWII,
It was the reason for the non-appearance of the megameter in the SI,

Jan

jerryfriedman
2024-11-11 18:32:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
Post by Peter Moylan
I
myself live one and a quarter megametres from where I was born.
5.9 Mm for me. Just out of curiosity, how did you calculate that? I
used geographiclib in Python (which I've previously used for
geocaching calculations).
I'm not Peter, but I typed "distance Espanola, NM to
Cleveland, OH" at a popular search site.

--
Jerry Friedman

--
Janet
2024-11-09 12:13:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Adam Funk
This prompted me to check another geographical oddity. The
distance from Glasgow to Edinburg (no h) in Virginia is a bit more
than twice the distance from Glasgow to Edinburgh in Scotland.
That the Scottish example is one that used to surprise me a lot: so
near and yet so far.
When I finally got to visit Scotland I was amazed to discover that
Edinburgh and Glasgow are, by my standards, practically next door to
each other. Yet the two cities have different social attitudes and even
speak different languages.
On that trip we met someone who lives halfway between Edinburgh and
Glasgow. Apparently she is equally despised by both groups.
Not sure about population movements between Edinburgh and Glasgow, and
Janet and (I guess) Hibou know much better than the rest of us about it,
but I guess that most people living in e.g. Skye and Arbroath descend
from people who already lived there 250 years ago.
15 % 0f Skye's population are English (incomers).

Skye has suffered native depopulation for 200 years,
caused by the Highland Clearances, poverty/famine, world
war loss of manpower.

Since then, ambitious young rural/coastal Scots, often
leave home and go to cities to make a career or
fortune.Same story in Arbroath after its fishing fleet and
other traditional industry disappear.

Janet UK

How many Australians
Post by Silvano
can say that about themselves, if we do not count Aboriginals?
Old countries had more time to develop language differences. Compare the
differences among Aboriginal languages to those among Spanish speakers
in Latin America or the Russian dialects in the small area between Saint
Petersburg and Vladivostok.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-07 14:23:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Janet
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I have never heard "Alba" before, and I have even been to Scotland (many
years ago).
How about "Caledonia " ?
I didn't hear it in Scotland, but I have read all the Asterix albums -
some in Danish, all in French.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Peter Moylan
2024-11-07 10:22:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Are there other relevant words?
I'm not sure what you mean by relevant,
I'm not Bertel, but I'm pretty sure he's asking if there are any
other words used in English when describing something related to
Scotland, e.g. Alba, the Scottish Gaelic name for Scotland used among
others by <https://www.bbc.com/alba>.
Question to Peter and Aidan: do you understand something of what you
can read there?
Let's start by saying that Aidan appears to be fluent in Irish, while I
am still at kindergarten level.

So I can't understand any whole sentences on that page (unless you count
Radio nan Gàidheal, which you probably also understand), but i can
recognise a few words. The word "agus" (and) is the same in both
languages. I'm almost certain that Scottish "tha" means the same as
Irish "tá", and I can spot some other likely pairs: as, an, na, ach.
Picking a longer word, "Gàidhealtachd" in one article has to be a
cognate of Irish "Gaeltacht"; they're probably even pronounced the same.
In that same link, "muinntir" looks almost like the Irish word for
"teacher".

You could almost say that the Scottish and Irish languages are the same
language, except that the Scottish version has had more spelling
reforms. And of course they were the same language a few hundred years ago.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Aidan Kehoe
2024-11-07 17:40:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Are there other relevant words?
I'm not sure what you mean by relevant,
I'm not Bertel, but I'm pretty sure he's asking if there are any other
words used in English when describing something related to Scotland,
e.g. Alba, the Scottish Gaelic name for Scotland used among others by
<https://www.bbc.com/alba>.
Question to Peter and Aidan: do you understand something of what you can
read there?
Yes, of course. If you understand spoken Donegal Irish, then picking up some of
Scots Gaelic is manageable. The dialect continuum hasn’t been broken for *that*
long. The different orthography is a stumbling block.
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-07 09:24:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Is there any difference between "Scots" and "Scottish"?
"Scots" as an adjective is used mainly in Scotland. When I were a lad
the equivalent in England was "Scotch", but that is frowned on
nowadays, so we say "Scottish". We do say "Scotsman", however.
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Are there other relevant words?
I'm not sure what you mean by relevant, but there are also
No, I wasn't clear. I meant words to describe something Scottish.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Paul Carmichael
2024-11-07 16:10:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Englishman Welshman Irishman Manxman Frenchman Dutchman Chinaman (not
used today)
I don't think there are any others. "German" doesn't count.
<thread swerve>

I've told people here in Spain that words referring to jobs always have
the a in man as a schwa. This means it doesn't mean man as in masculine,
just person. Neutral gender. Any job title with a pronounced a is usually
male specific (but I can't think of one right now).

Thinking about it, all your nationality examples have a schwa, so can
mean male or female (according to my logic).

Am I wrong?

Another thought: the a in human is schwa.

I presume the tallyman was always a man.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es
jerryfriedman
2024-11-07 16:26:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Carmichael
Englishman Welshman Irishman Manxman Frenchman Dutchman Chinaman (not
used today)
I don't think there are any others. "German" doesn't count.
<thread swerve>
I've told people here in Spain that words referring to jobs always have
the a in man as a schwa.
Can you get them to pronounce a schwa?
Post by Paul Carmichael
This means it doesn't mean man as in masculine,
just person. Neutral gender. Any job title with a pronounced a is usually
male specific (but I can't think of one right now).
Thinking about it, all your nationality examples have a schwa, so can
mean male or female (according to my logic).
Am I wrong?
Are you serious?
Post by Paul Carmichael
Another thought: the a in human is schwa.
Likewise that in "woman".
Post by Paul Carmichael
I presume the tallyman was always a man.
I think "handyman" and "motorman" (driver of a subway
and maybe other things) have a schwa too. I'm not sure
they would in... which island?... Jamaica.

--
Jerry Friedman

--
Paul Carmichael
2024-11-07 17:01:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Paul Carmichael
<thread swerve>
I've told people here in Spain that words referring to jobs always have
the a in man as a schwa.
Can you get them to pronounce a schwa?
De ninguna manera.

Nor a short u. Donald is a tramp.

A pub is a pab.

To be honest, I just go along with it now. I go to the pab and listen to
Deeray strights.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es
jerryfriedman
2024-11-08 00:04:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Paul Carmichael
<thread swerve>
I've told people here in Spain that words referring to jobs always have
the a in man as a schwa.
Can you get them to pronounce a schwa?
De ninguna manera.
When I was trading English lessons for Spanish lessons
with a Mexican man, I once spent a few minutes teaching
him to say a schwa. He picked up what I meant by front
and back, and was telling him "farther forward", "farther
back", until he finally pronounced an actual schwa, for what I
believe was the last time in his life.

My pronunciation of Spanish, is, of course, irreproa--
I can't go on.
Post by Paul Carmichael
Nor a short u. Donald is a tramp.
A pub is a pab.
To be honest, I just go along with it now. I go to the pab and listen to
Deeray strights.
:-)

--
Jerry Friedman

--
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-08 08:02:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Paul Carmichael
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Paul Carmichael
<thread swerve>
I've told people here in Spain that words referring to jobs always have
the a in man as a schwa.
Can you get them to pronounce a schwa?
De ninguna manera.
When I was trading English lessons for Spanish lessons
with a Mexican man, I once spent a few minutes teaching
him to say a schwa. He picked up what I meant by front
and back, and was telling him "farther forward", "farther
back", until he finally pronounced an actual schwa, for what I
believe was the last time in his life.
I must listen carefully to whether my wife has a proper schwa when
speaking English. I think she probably does.
Post by jerryfriedman
My pronunciation of Spanish, is, of course, irreproa--
I can't go on.
Post by Paul Carmichael
Nor a short u. Donald is a tramp.
A pub is a pab.
To be honest, I just go along with it now. I go to the pab and listen to
Deeray strights.
:-)
--
Jerry Friedman
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-08 08:16:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by jerryfriedman
When I was trading English lessons for Spanish lessons
with a Mexican man, I once spent a few minutes teaching
him to say a schwa. He picked up what I meant by front
and back, and was telling him "farther forward", "farther
back", until he finally pronounced an actual schwa, for what I
believe was the last time in his life.
I must listen carefully to whether my wife has a proper schwa when
speaking English. I think she probably does.
Your wife is French, I suppose. She would have a schwa in "manœuvre".
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-08 08:41:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by jerryfriedman
When I was trading English lessons for Spanish lessons
with a Mexican man, I once spent a few minutes teaching
him to say a schwa. He picked up what I meant by front
and back, and was telling him "farther forward", "farther
back", until he finally pronounced an actual schwa, for what I
believe was the last time in his life.
I must listen carefully to whether my wife has a proper schwa when
speaking English. I think she probably does.
Your wife is French, I suppose.
No. She is Chilean.
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
She would have a schwa in "manœuvre".
A "mute e" at the end of a word is not mute for many people in the
south of France and is definitely a schwa. However, you're probably
think of the œu, which is a long weakly stressed schwa. A word that has
a short weakly stressed schwa is "brebis", which is also surprising
because it looks masculine, but is feminine, as its meaning (ewe)
requires. French people say "brebis" about 500 times for every time
English speakers say "ewe".

Our former unlamented colleague Mr Daniels once claimed that stressed
schwa didn't occur in English, but like so many of his pronouncements
that was nonsense, as any one who lived (as I did for 16 years) in
Birmingham would know. In the local speech the first syllable not only
has a stressed schwa but is also long; in RP it has a short stressed
schwa.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Peter Moylan
2024-11-08 10:42:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
A "mute e" at the end of a word is not mute for many people in the
south of France and is definitely a schwa. However, you're probably
think of the œu, which is a long weakly stressed schwa. A word that
has a short weakly stressed schwa is "brebis", which is also
surprising because it looks masculine, but is feminine, as its
meaning (ewe) requires. French people say "brebis" about 500 times
for every time English speakers say "ewe".
Our former unlamented colleague Mr Daniels once claimed that stressed
schwa didn't occur in English, but like so many of his
pronouncements that was nonsense, as any one who lived (as I did for
16 years) in Birmingham would know. In the local speech the first
syllable not only has a stressed schwa but is also long; in RP it has
a short stressed schwa.
I am most reluctant to use the label "long schwa" for either the French
œu or the English non-rhotic "er" vowel, the one that Kirshenbaum IPA
writes as [V":]. To my ear they have an audible difference, and there's
a small change in the shape of my mouth when I say them.

Stress is a different matter. The NZE "i" vowel is a stressed schwa in
many words.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
musika
2024-11-07 17:04:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Paul Carmichael
I've told people here in Spain that words referring to jobs always have
the a in man as a schwa.
Can you get them to pronounce a schwa?
Post by Paul Carmichael
This means it doesn't mean man as in masculine,
just person. Neutral gender. Any job title with a pronounced a is usually
male specific (but I can't think of one right now).
Thinking about it, all your nationality examples have a schwa, so can
mean male or female (according to my logic).
Am I wrong?
Are you serious?
Post by Paul Carmichael
Another thought: the a in human is schwa.
Likewise that in "woman".
Post by Paul Carmichael
I presume the tallyman was always a man.
I think "handyman" and "motorman" (driver of a subway
and maybe other things) have a schwa too.  I'm not sure
they would in... which island?... Jamaica.
Where they like a beer-can sandwich.
--
Ray
UK
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-07 17:07:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Paul Carmichael
Englishman Welshman Irishman Manxman Frenchman Dutchman Chinaman (not
used today)
I don't think there are any others. "German" doesn't count.
<thread swerve>
I've told people here in Spain that words referring to jobs always have
the a in man as a schwa.
Can you get them to pronounce a schwa?
It occurred to me on reading this that I pronounce "Tenerife" with a
schwa for the second e. So I asked my wife to say it, and clearly my
schwa is wrong. I shall try to mend my ways.
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Paul Carmichael
This means it doesn't mean man as in masculine,
just person. Neutral gender. Any job title with a pronounced a is usually
male specific (but I can't think of one right now).
Thinking about it, all your nationality examples have a schwa, so can
mean male or female (according to my logic).
Am I wrong?
Are you serious?
Post by Paul Carmichael
Another thought: the a in human is schwa.
Likewise that in "woman".
Post by Paul Carmichael
I presume the tallyman was always a man.
I think "handyman" and "motorman" (driver of a subway
and maybe other things) have a schwa too. I'm not sure
they would in... which island?... Jamaica.
--
Jerry Friedman
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Aidan Kehoe
2024-11-08 06:51:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Paul Carmichael
Englishman Welshman Irishman Manxman Frenchman Dutchman Chinaman (not
used today)
I don't think there are any others. "German" doesn't count.
<thread swerve>
I've told people here in Spain that words referring to jobs always have
the a in man as a schwa.
Can you get them to pronounce a schwa?
It occurred to me on reading this that I pronounce "Tenerife" with a schwa
for the second e. So I asked my wife to say it, and clearly my schwa is
wrong. I shall try to mend my ways.
Good man, assimilating nicely to the EU.

Of course it’s completely normal to do that as an English speaker, in the same
way the Andalusian town is [tɔʁəmoliˈnos] in French, a big difference from
the Spanish pronunciation [toremoˈlinos].
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-08 07:58:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Aidan Kehoe
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Paul Carmichael
Englishman Welshman Irishman Manxman Frenchman Dutchman Chinaman (not
used today)
I don't think there are any others. "German" doesn't count.
<thread swerve>
I've told people here in Spain that words referring to jobs always have
the a in man as a schwa.
Can you get them to pronounce a schwa?
It occurred to me on reading this that I pronounce "Tenerife" with a schwa
for the second e. So I asked my wife to say it, and clearly my schwa is
wrong. I shall try to mend my ways.
Good man, assimilating nicely to the EU.
Of course it’s completely normal to do that as an English speaker, in the same
way the Andalusian town is [tɔʁəmoliˈnos] in French, a big difference from
the Spanish pronunciation [toremoˈlinos].
I would probably still have a schwa if speaking in English to an
English speaker. However, I try to pronounce it in a Spanish way if
speaking to a Spanish speaker -- something I do a great deal more often.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Paul Carmichael
2024-11-08 10:15:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I would probably still have a schwa if speaking in English to an English
speaker. However, I try to pronounce it in a Spanish way if speaking to
a Spanish speaker -- something I do a great deal more often.
Something I hear a lot here is English speakers say something in Spanish
to a Spanish person and get a blank look. Then somebody will say the same
word, but without schwas and the other would say "but that's exactly what
I said!". It wasn't. And they will not accept that there is any
difference.

There's a place near here called "El Torcal". You can imagine how the
English speakers pronounce that (stressed o and a schwa). Horrible. Of
course most of us here are also non-rhotic so the word sounds nothing
remotely like it should.
--
Paul.

https://paulc.es
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-07 17:00:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Carmichael
Englishman Welshman Irishman Manxman Frenchman Dutchman Chinaman (not
used today)
I don't think there are any others. "German" doesn't count.
<thread swerve>
I've told people here in Spain that words referring to jobs always have
the a in man as a schwa. This means it doesn't mean man as in masculine,
just person. Neutral gender. Any job title with a pronounced a is usually
male specific (but I can't think of one right now).
Thinking about it, all your nationality examples have a schwa, so can
mean male or female (according to my logic).
Am I wrong?
You're right that they all have schwa, but wrong that they can mean
female -- we have Englishwoman etc. for that, though some of the -woman
words sound a bit unnatural to my ears. In the unlikely event that I
ever meet a woman from the Isle of Man I'd be inclined to treat it as
two words: Manx woman.

There was a microbial biochemist at Sheffield called Rodney Quayle that
I think was of Manx origin (the actor Anthony Quayle certainly was),
though he lived and worked in England and was born in Wales. However,
he was male, as was a boy called Quilliam that I was at school with 70
years ago. At the time it was just a name to me, but now it leaps out
at me as Manx.
Post by Paul Carmichael
Another thought: the a in human is schwa.
Yes, as is the a in woman.
Post by Paul Carmichael
I presume the tallyman was always a man.
In the days when people used Chinaman to refer to a Chinese man I think
it had a schwa, but I don't know. But what about chinaman as a term in
cricket, ə or æ?
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
charles
2024-11-07 17:08:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul Carmichael
Englishman Welshman Irishman Manxman Frenchman Dutchman Chinaman (not
used today)
I don't think there are any others. "German" doesn't count.
<thread swerve>
I've told people here in Spain that words referring to jobs always have
the a in man as a schwa. This means it doesn't mean man as in masculine,
just person. Neutral gender. Any job title with a pronounced a is usually
male specific (but I can't think of one right now).
Thinking about it, all your nationality examples have a schwa, so can
mean male or female (according to my logic).
Am I wrong?
Another thought: the a in human is schwa.
I presume the tallyman was always a man.
-
Chairman become "Chair" which I believe to be a piece of furnitire.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-07 11:08:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am not entirely sure which word to use when describing something
related to Scotland, especially what the inhabitants are called.
A follow-up question:

Do all Scots know Gaelic (to some extent), or is it Greek to some of
them?
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-07 11:14:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am not entirely sure which word to use when describing something
related to Scotland, especially what the inhabitants are called.
Do all Scots know Gaelic (to some extent), or is it Greek to some of
them?
Extremely few know Gaelic.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
charles
2024-11-07 11:45:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am not entirely sure which word to use when describing something
related to Scotland, especially what the inhabitants are called.
Do all Scots know Gaelic (to some extent), or is it Greek to some of
them?
If you are a lowland Scot, you probably have never even heard it spoken.
The local language is "Scots". Read Robert Burns to get an idea.

on the other hand, I do know quite a few geographic descriptions and I do
have two Gaelic/ English dictonaries on my bookshelves; one belonged to my
father, the other I bought some 20 years ago when on holiday on the Isle of
Skye. I do know a couple of bi-lingual speakers, though. Their father came
from one of the Western Isles - but worked in Edinburgh. There are Gaelic
speaking schools in both Edinburgh & Glasgow.

Having attended a private school in Edinburgh, I was taught Greek - but not
Gaelic.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-07 14:31:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by charles
If you are a lowland Scot, you probably have never even heard it spoken.
The local language is "Scots". Read Robert Burns to get an idea.
I still remember how the Scots spoke when I visited Scotland at the age
of 14-15. They did their best to make sure that we could understand it,
so maybe it wasn't real Scots? Once my ears were tuned in to their
special pronunciation, it wasn't too difficult to understand. Their
vocabulary was English.

I have forgotten whether I heard a different language when they spoke to
each other, except for one remark when we were picked up by the bus stop
by alle the receiving families. It was straight forward:

John, you've got two hands.

They made sure that we didn't have to carry our luggage ourselves.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Hibou
2024-11-07 13:40:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am not entirely sure which word to use when describing something
related to Scotland, especially what the inhabitants are called.
Do all Scots know Gaelic (to some extent), or is it Greek to some of
them?
I think the figure is about 1%, 60,000, concentrated in the far north-west:

<Loading Image...>

There's always been a question in my mind as to how well they speak it.
All Scots know English; no-one has to know Gaelic to function. And, as
with all languages not used to hew at the technological coal-face, there
is the problem of vocabulary. As life changes, as new terms are
invented, they have to be adopted from English into Gaelic.

Some, notably the Nationalists, wish to preserve and promote the
language, but it is impossible to do both. If one preserves it, if one
pickles it, it cannot cope with modern life and will die; if it develops
as a living language, which means adding lots of English terms or
neologisms of its own, then that is not preserving it.
Adam Funk
2024-11-07 14:39:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am not entirely sure which word to use when describing something
related to Scotland, especially what the inhabitants are called.
Do all Scots know Gaelic (to some extent), or is it Greek to some of
them?
<https://decolonialatlas.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/percentages-of-gaelic-speakers-mono-and-bilingual-in-scotland-in-successive-census-years-1891e280932001-red-75e28093100-gaelic-speaking-orange-50e2809374-9-gaelic-speaking-yellow-25.jpg>
There's always been a question in my mind as to how well they speak it.
All Scots know English; no-one has to know Gaelic to function. And, as
with all languages not used to hew at the technological coal-face, there
is the problem of vocabulary. As life changes, as new terms are
invented, they have to be adopted from English into Gaelic.
When the telephone was invented, English needed a new word for it too.
Post by Hibou
Some, notably the Nationalists, wish to preserve and promote the
language, but it is impossible to do both. If one preserves it, if one
pickles it, it cannot cope with modern life and will die; if it develops
as a living language, which means adding lots of English terms or
neologisms of its own, then that is not preserving it.
--
And awful things are happening: we've let this drama fold,
and now the time has come at last to crush the motif of the rose.
Hibou
2024-11-07 16:45:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Adam Funk
[...] And, as
with all languages not used to hew at the technological coal-face, there
is the problem of vocabulary. As life changes, as new terms are
invented, they have to be adopted from English into Gaelic.
When the telephone was invented, English needed a new word for it too.
You're right, of course. But, since English is the language of
technology, new terms are invented to suit it. They don't necessarily
suit other languages, but English is everywhere, so are hard to resist.

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Telefon%2CFernsprecher&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=de&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false>

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=e-mail%2Ccourriel%2Cm%C3%A9l&year_start=1900&year_end=2022&corpus=fr&smoothing=3>
Hibou
2024-11-07 16:59:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Adam Funk
[...]  And, as
with all languages not used to hew at the technological coal-face, there
is the problem of vocabulary. As life changes, as new terms are
invented, they have to be adopted from English into Gaelic.
When the telephone was invented, English needed a new word for it too.
You're right, of course. But, since English is the language of
technology, new terms are invented to suit it. They don't necessarily
suit other languages, but English is everywhere, so are hard to resist.
<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Telefon%2CFernsprecher&year_start=1800&year_end=2022&corpus=de&smoothing=3&case_insensitive=false>
<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=e-mail%2Ccourriel%2Cm%C3%A9l&year_start=1900&year_end=2022&corpus=fr&smoothing=3>
Curious, the high frequency of 'mél' before 1940. It seems to have been
used as an abbreviation in indexes, but I'm not sure for what. The
modern 'mél' is this one:

« Devant une adresse électronique, [messagerie] peut être abrégé en
Mél., qui doit être utilisé de préférence à l’abréviation anglaise
e-mail » -
<https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9M1863-A>
Peter Moylan
2024-11-07 21:41:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Curious, the high frequency of 'mél' before 1940. It seems to have
been used as an abbreviation in indexes, but I'm not sure for what.
« Devant une adresse électronique, [messagerie] peut être abrégé en
Mél., qui doit être utilisé de préférence à l’abréviation anglaise
e-mail » - <https://www.dictionnaire-academie.fr/article/A9M1863-A>
I quite like the French term "pourriel" for junk mail; but I can't find
it online, so maybe it's fallen out of use.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Garrett Wollman
2024-11-07 23:38:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
I quite like the French term "pourriel" for junk mail; but I can't find
it online, so maybe it's fallen out of use.
An OQLF-ism, so you're more likely to find it in Quebec (especially
official Quebec) sources. It's blend of "poubelle" and "courriel",
the latter of which is also an OQLF-ism (and itself a blend of
"courrier" and "electronique").

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Ross Clark
2024-11-08 00:16:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Peter Moylan
I quite like the French term "pourriel" for junk mail; but I can't find
it online, so maybe it's fallen out of use.
An OQLF-ism, so you're more likely to find it in Quebec (especially
official Quebec) sources. It's blend of "poubelle" and "courriel",
the latter of which is also an OQLF-ism (and itself a blend of
"courrier" and "electronique").
-GAWollman
Surely not only from "poubelle" (garbage can, dustbin) -- which honours
a certain municipal official who introduced metal rubbish bins to Paris
in 1884 -- but at least as much from "pourri" (rotten).
Adam Funk
2024-11-08 12:42:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Peter Moylan
I quite like the French term "pourriel" for junk mail; but I can't find
it online, so maybe it's fallen out of use.
An OQLF-ism, so you're more likely to find it in Quebec (especially
official Quebec) sources. It's blend of "poubelle" and "courriel",
the latter of which is also an OQLF-ism (and itself a blend of
"courrier" and "electronique").
Interesting --- I thought "courriel" was an invention of the Académie
Française, but this page says it was invented by the OQLF then
endorsed by the AF.

<https://www.thoughtco.com/le-courriel-vocabulary-1371793>
--
My choice early in life was either to be a piano player in a
whorehouse or a politician. And to tell the truth, there's
hardly any difference. ---Harry S Truman
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-08 05:30:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
I quite like the French term "pourriel" for junk mail; but I can't find
it online, so maybe it's fallen out of use.
Try an Ngram. It has five 0s so it's not seldom.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Peter Moylan
2024-11-07 21:46:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I am not entirely sure which word to use when describing something
related to Scotland, especially what the inhabitants are called.
Do all Scots know Gaelic (to some extent), or is it Greek to some of
them?
A partial answer for Ireland:

Pádraig Breathnach, formerly of this parish, was a school-teacher when I
met him. (He's now a novelist, writing in the Irish language.) He told
me that his pupils looked at him strangely when he spoke to them in
Irish. He's the history teacher, not the Irish teacher, so what is he
using that language for?

My admittedly limited sampling left me with a very strong impression:
Irish children learn the language at school, but not really fluently,
and then they promptly forget it. Which is much the same as I've seen
for secondary-school foreign language teaching in Australia.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Aidan Kehoe
2024-11-08 06:55:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Irish children learn the language at school, but not really fluently, and
then they promptly forget it. Which is much the same as I've seen for
secondary-school foreign language teaching in Australia.
That’s a fair summary.
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
Hibou
2024-11-08 08:27:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Irish children learn the language at school, but not really fluently,
and then they promptly forget it. Which is much the same as I've seen
for secondary-school foreign language teaching in Australia.
That was how it was with my school French. When I exhumed its corpse 20
or so years ago, the flesh had rotted away, but the bones remained -
some vocabulary, some principles of grammar, and - perhaps most useful
of all - pronunciation. (We had been compelled to do phonetic exercises,
which I hated at the time, but my vocal tract remembered them.)

(There was no need for an autopsy. I knew it had died of neglect.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-08 08:50:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Peter Moylan
Irish children learn the language at school, but not really fluently,
and then they promptly forget it. Which is much the same as I've seen
for secondary-school foreign language teaching in Australia.
That was how it was with my school French. When I exhumed its corpse 20
or so years ago, the flesh had rotted away, but the bones remained -
some vocabulary, some principles of grammar, and - perhaps most useful
of all - pronunciation. (We had been compelled to do phonetic
exercises, which I hated at the time, but my vocal tract remembered
them.)
That pretty much describes my French, which I exhumed nearly forty years ago.
Post by Hibou
(There was no need for an autopsy. I knew it had died of neglect.)
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Silvano
2024-11-08 09:26:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Post by Peter Moylan
Irish children learn the language at school, but not really fluently,
and then they promptly forget it. Which is much the same as I've seen
for secondary-school foreign language teaching in Australia.
That was how it was with my school French. When I exhumed its corpse
20 or so years ago, the flesh had rotted away, but the bones remained
- some vocabulary, some principles of grammar, and - perhaps most
useful of all - pronunciation. (We had been compelled to do phonetic
exercises, which I hated at the time, but my vocal tract remembered
them.)
That pretty much describes my French, which I exhumed nearly forty years ago.
I thought you had successfully resuscitated your French in those 37
years in Marseille.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2024-11-08 09:49:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Post by Peter Moylan
Irish children learn the language at school, but not really fluently,
and then they promptly forget it. Which is much the same as I've seen
for secondary-school foreign language teaching in Australia.
That was how it was with my school French. When I exhumed its corpse
20 or so years ago, the flesh had rotted away, but the bones remained
- some vocabulary, some principles of grammar, and - perhaps most
useful of all - pronunciation. (We had been compelled to do phonetic
exercises, which I hated at the time, but my vocal tract remembered
them.)
That pretty much describes my French, which I exhumed nearly forty years ago.
I thought you had successfully resuscitated your French in those 37
years in Marseille.
Yes, I manage perfectly well in French _today_. However, I understood
Hibou to be talking about his French of 20 years ago. I was talking
about my French of 40 years ago. No contradiction that I can see.
--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.
Silvano
2024-11-08 13:29:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Silvano
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Hibou
Post by Peter Moylan
Irish children learn the language at school, but not really fluently,
and then they promptly forget it. Which is much the same as I've seen
for secondary-school foreign language teaching in Australia.
That was how it was with my school French. When I exhumed its corpse
20 or so years ago, the flesh had rotted away, but the bones remained
- some vocabulary, some principles of grammar, and - perhaps most
useful of all - pronunciation. (We had been compelled to do phonetic
exercises, which I hated at the time, but my vocal tract remembered
them.)
That pretty much describes my French, which I exhumed nearly forty years ago.
I thought you had successfully resuscitated your French in those 37
years in Marseille.
Yes, I manage perfectly well in French _today_. However, I understood
Hibou to be talking about his French of 20 years ago. I was talking
about my French of 40 years ago. No contradiction that I can see.
In this case, which I expected, I wonder if the following sentence would
not be clearer, just to make sure that you're not one of those people
who manage to live for decades in a foreign country without learning the
local language.

"That pretty much describes my French, (as it was) when I exhumed it
nearly forty years ago."
Peter Moylan
2024-11-08 10:26:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
Post by Peter Moylan
My admittedly limited sampling left me with a very strong
impression: Irish children learn the language at school, but not
really fluently, and then they promptly forget it. Which is much
the same as I've seen for secondary-school foreign language
teaching in Australia.
That was how it was with my school French. When I exhumed its corpse
20 or so years ago, the flesh had rotted away, but the bones remained
- some vocabulary, some principles of grammar, and - perhaps most
useful of all - pronunciation. (We had been compelled to do phonetic
exercises, which I hated at the time, but my vocal tract remembered
them.)
(There was no need for an autopsy. I knew it had died of neglect.)
I did French for six years at school. At the end of that I could read a
book if it wasn't too challenging, but there was no way I could carry on
a conversation. Years later, I did two years of university French. That
improved my pronunciation, and reminded me of some grammatical stuff
that I'd forgotten, but I still wasn't competent or confident.

What finally improved my French was working in Paris for three months,
living alone, and with no contact with anyone who could speak English.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Rich Ulrich
2024-11-08 16:26:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Hibou
Post by Peter Moylan
My admittedly limited sampling left me with a very strong
impression: Irish children learn the language at school, but not
really fluently, and then they promptly forget it. Which is much
the same as I've seen for secondary-school foreign language
teaching in Australia.
That was how it was with my school French. When I exhumed its corpse
20 or so years ago, the flesh had rotted away, but the bones remained
- some vocabulary, some principles of grammar, and - perhaps most
useful of all - pronunciation. (We had been compelled to do phonetic
exercises, which I hated at the time, but my vocal tract remembered
them.)
(There was no need for an autopsy. I knew it had died of neglect.)
I did French for six years at school. At the end of that I could read a
book if it wasn't too challenging, but there was no way I could carry on
a conversation. Years later, I did two years of university French.
I remember a conversation I had in my early days at college,
concerning high school versus college language instruction in French.
It was a dorm mate who was proud of his high school French.

He said that he had been kind of pissed off when he learned that
his two years of high school French let him skip just one semester
of college French. Then he went to his first class, where the
start-of-class review of what they were supposed to know
included everything he had learned those in two previous years.

My high school Latin gave me a welcome introduction words used
in mottos and in law, and in grammar (declensions, conjugations).
My two years of college German gave me a bad habit of writing
English sentences with the verb stuck at the end. That lasted
longer than my apprehension of German vocabulary.
Post by Peter Moylan
That
improved my pronunciation, and reminded me of some grammatical stuff
that I'd forgotten, but I still wasn't competent or confident.
What finally improved my French was working in Paris for three months,
living alone, and with no contact with anyone who could speak English.
--
Rich Ulrich
Peter Moylan
2024-11-08 23:32:10 UTC
Reply
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Post by Rich Ulrich
Post by Peter Moylan
I did French for six years at school. At the end of that I could
read a book if it wasn't too challenging, but there was no way I
could carry on a conversation. Years later, I did two years of
university French.
I remember a conversation I had in my early days at college,
concerning high school versus college language instruction in
French. It was a dorm mate who was proud of his high school French.
He said that he had been kind of pissed off when he learned that his
two years of high school French let him skip just one semester of
college French. Then he went to his first class, where the
start-of-class review of what they were supposed to know included
everything he had learned those in two previous years.
My university ran two streams of French subjects, one for those who had
done French at high school and the other for raw beginners. When I
signed up I was given a classification test, and I did badly because it
was heavily focused on the imperfect subjunctive of some irregular
verbs. Because of this, I was placed in the Mickey Mouse stream. After
only a few weeks, though, I was moved to the harder stream.

By the middle of the second year, I found that doing a large French
subject conflicted with having a full-time job. I told the lecturer in
charge that I wouldn't be handing in a major assignment, and that I
didn't mind failing the subject because I wasn't doing it for a degree.
He replied "If I fail you, how can I justify passing the others?" He
convinced me to stay in the subject.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Garrett Wollman
2024-11-09 02:04:18 UTC
Reply
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Post by Peter Moylan
I did French for six years at school.
My parochial primary school had "conversational" French, taught by
nuns whose first language probably was, starting in second grade. It
was mostly rote repetation of stock phrases and one shor story about a
flat tire, but it gave me a decent grounding in pronunciation. We
didn't actually start learning proper French grammar until seventh
grade, and I surprised the middle-school French teacher by having
good pronunciation but not much grammar. (I remember being particularly
baffled by negative existential clauses.)

In high school we actually started reading proper French literature;
our French teacher (who I loved and was the only teacher I kept in
touch with after graduation) typed up her own editions of most of the
works we used in class and ran copies off on the spirit duplicator,
some of which I still have today, including "Candide" and "Le tour du
monde en 80 jours" (don't think we learned French editorial
conventions for capitalization of titles, though). But then I went to
Finland on an exchange student, and trying to learn Finnish -- and not
being exposed to French for nearly a year -- destroyed both my
self-confidence with language in general, and my ability to speak
French conversationally in particular, without really replacing it
with anything.

In college I took one or maybe two semesters of French and I was
really shocked at how much of the basics I still knew and my fellow
students didn't, in particular when it was appropriate to use the
familiar second person, but that didn't make it any easier to actually
converse -- despite having the ability to watch Radio-Canada on TV any
time I wanted. The texts we were to read were much more challenging:
Gabrielle Roy's "Rue Deschambault" and Jean Anouilh's "L'Alouette",
both of which I still have, but I don't think I read either one of
them all the way through, just enough to keep up with class.

Now, I'm even less able to understand fluent conversational French
(whether of the Hexagon or in Quebec) and certainly can't compose
sentences fast enough to respond conversationally, which is a
tremendous frustration, since not only is that a skill I used to have,
but half my ancestry is francophone. I can still read some formal
written French, particularly if I already have some idea of the topic.
I try to follow some French social media accounts and occasionally
look things up in French Wikipedia just to avoid losing even more.
But there aren't many places I would be likely to go where most people
only speak French.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Peter Moylan
2024-11-09 03:20:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Garrett Wollman
My parochial primary school had "conversational" French, taught by
nuns whose first language probably was, starting in second grade.
It was mostly rote repetation of stock phrases and one shor story
about a flat tire, but it gave me a decent grounding in
pronunciation. We didn't actually start learning proper French
grammar until seventh grade, and I surprised the middle-school French
teacher by having good pronunciation but not much grammar. (I
remember being particularly baffled by negative existential
clauses.)
Talking of negatives ...

In French "il faut" means "it is necessary", and in many contexts
equally good translations would be "it is required" or "you must". Now,
in French classes I was taught that the negative form "il ne faut pas"
means the opposite of "il faut".

For me that raised the question "what do you mean by opposite?". Take an
example sentence "il ne faut pas faire ça". Does this mean
"You are not required to do that"
or
"You must not do that".
(The second is the correct answer, but I didn't know that at the time.)
So I asked that question in a class.

Neither the teacher nor (with one exception) my fellow students
understood the question. The one exception was a student who was doing a
Mathematics major. He understood my question, and also wanted to know
the answer. Everyone else said, in effect, "there isn't any difference".
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Hibou
2024-11-09 13:54:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Talking of negatives ...
In French "il faut" means "it is necessary", and in many contexts
equally good translations would be "it is required" or "you must". Now,
in French classes I was taught that the negative form "il ne faut pas"
means the opposite of "il faut".
For me that raised the question "what do you mean by opposite?". Take an
example sentence "il ne faut pas faire ça". Does this mean
   "You are not required to do that"
or
  "You must not do that".
(The second is the correct answer, but I didn't know that at the time.)
So I asked that question in a class.
Neither the teacher nor (with one exception) my fellow students
understood the question. The one exception was a student who was doing a
Mathematics major. He understood my question, and also wanted to know
the answer. Everyone else said, in effect, "there isn't any difference".
Hmm. Bit of a faut pas.
Silvano
2024-11-10 10:26:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Talking of negatives ...
In French "il faut" means "it is necessary", and in many contexts
equally good translations would be "it is required" or "you must". Now,
in French classes I was taught that the negative form "il ne faut pas"
means the opposite of "il faut".
For me that raised the question "what do you mean by opposite?". Take an
example sentence "il ne faut pas faire ça". Does this mean
"You are not required to do that"
or
"You must not do that".
(The second is the correct answer, but I didn't know that at the time.)
So I asked that question in a class.
Neither the teacher nor (with one exception) my fellow students
understood the question. The one exception was a student who was doing a
Mathematics major. He understood my question, and also wanted to know
the answer. Everyone else said, in effect, "there isn't any difference".
I had commented yesterday, but my comment got lost in the web. Slightly
midified comment:
I'm stunned that native English speakers do not see any difference
between "You are not required to do that" (my understanding: you can do
it or not. It's probably better not to.) and "You must not do that" (my
understanding: it's bad or even forbidden to do that).
Peter Moylan
2024-11-10 11:12:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Peter Moylan
Talking of negatives ...
In French "il faut" means "it is necessary", and in many contexts
equally good translations would be "it is required" or "you must".
Now, in French classes I was taught that the negative form "il ne
faut pas" means the opposite of "il faut".
For me that raised the question "what do you mean by opposite?".
Take an example sentence "il ne faut pas faire ça". Does this mean
"You are not required to do that" or "You must not do that". (The
second is the correct answer, but I didn't know that at the time.)
So I asked that question in a class.
Neither the teacher nor (with one exception) my fellow students
understood the question. The one exception was a student who was
doing a Mathematics major. He understood my question, and also
wanted to know the answer. Everyone else said, in effect, "there
isn't any difference".
I had commented yesterday, but my comment got lost in the web.
Slightly midified comment: I'm stunned that native English speakers
do not see any difference between "You are not required to do that"
(my understanding: you can do it or not. It's probably better not
to.) and "You must not do that" (my understanding: it's bad or even
forbidden to do that).
If you posed it as a question "What do these sentences mean in
English?", most native speakers of English would understand the
difference. The problem arose because it was a question of what a French
sentence meant, in a group where French was a foreign language. Also
because the French verb falloir (the infinitive of il faut) does not
have a direct translation into English; any translation has to be a
paraphrase.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Steve Hayes
2024-11-11 05:22:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Silvano
I had commented yesterday, but my comment got lost in the web.
Slightly midified comment: I'm stunned that native English speakers
do not see any difference between "You are not required to do that"
(my understanding: you can do it or not. It's probably better not
to.) and "You must not do that" (my understanding: it's bad or even
forbidden to do that).
If you posed it as a question "What do these sentences mean in
English?", most native speakers of English would understand the
difference. The problem arose because it was a question of what a French
sentence meant, in a group where French was a foreign language. Also
because the French verb falloir (the infinitive of il faut) does not
have a direct translation into English; any translation has to be a
paraphrase.
When I worked as an editor at the University of South Africa (Unisa),
a distance education institution, a lot of the academics who write
study guides or translated them would used "must" a lot.

This struck English-speaking editors and translators as jarring and
authoritarian, and they preferred to say things like "You should do X
or Y..." rather than "You must do X or Y."
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Peter Moylan
2024-11-11 05:47:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
When I worked as an editor at the University of South Africa
(Unisa), a distance education institution, a lot of the academics who
write study guides or translated them would used "must" a lot.
This struck English-speaking editors and translators as jarring and
authoritarian, and they preferred to say things like "You should do
X or Y..." rather than "You must do X or Y."
Communication protocols across the internet (there are many of them) are
governed by pseudo-standards called RFCs. In RFC-land the words SHOULD
and MUST and MAY have strictly defined meanings, and are always written
in upper case to make them stand out. Likewise for their negatives.

MUST means "this is compulsory".
SHOULD means "this is recommended, but optional".
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
Hibou
2024-11-11 06:48:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Steve Hayes
When I worked as an editor at the University of South Africa
(Unisa), a distance education institution, a lot of the academics who
write study guides or translated them would used "must" a lot.
This struck English-speaking editors and translators as jarring and
authoritarian, and they preferred to say things like "You should do
X or Y..." rather than "You must do X or Y."
Communication protocols across the internet (there are many of them) are
governed by pseudo-standards called RFCs. In RFC-land the words SHOULD
and MUST and MAY have strictly defined meanings, and are always written
in upper case to make them stand out. Likewise for their negatives.
MUST means "this is compulsory".
SHOULD means "this is recommended, but optional".
Similarly, in the British Highway Code, 'MUST' means it's the law, and
'should' that it's a good idea.

I have become convinced that most people don't think about the words
they use, but just draw them from Stores and string them together - not
just individual words, but prefabricated phrases too. They'll quite
happily say "All people are not equal" while meaning "Not all people are
equal" or - French example - « à quatre reprises », four times, which is
surely one prise and only three reprises.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-11 09:08:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Hibou
I have become convinced that most people don't think about the words
they use, but just draw them from Stores and string them together - not
just individual words, but prefabricated phrases too. They'll quite
happily say "All people are not equal" while meaning "Not all people are
equal"
You can find countless examples of 'misplaced' adverbs in Danish. It is
not a sign of bad Danish - it's standard.
Post by Hibou
or - French example - « à quatre reprises », four times, which is
surely one prise and only three reprises.
I think we had that discussion not too long ago.

There are other examples of Danish where people clearly have no idea
what they are really saying. This line is from the wild:

We must avoid that the pupils don't skip school.

PS. I made an Ngram with "skipped school". It's a depressing sight.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
jerryfriedman
2024-11-11 15:53:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 6:48:26 +0000, Hibou wrote:
..
Post by Hibou
I have become convinced that most people don't think about the words
they use, but just draw them from Stores and string them together - not
just individual words, but prefabricated phrases too. They'll quite
happily say "All people are not equal" while meaning "Not all people are
equal" or - French example - « à quatre reprises », four times, which is
surely one prise and only three reprises.
I agree. When I'm telling my students that they need to
read problems carefully, I sometimes use "This book fills a
much-needed gap." I think a few of them never get why
it means that the speaker didn't like the book [*], which
might mean it's a bad example.

Some people deal with this problem by saying the same
thing over and over in different words.

[*] I'm quoting it from the critic Moses Hadas. Some
people do use phrases like that to indicate approval.

--
Jerry Friedman

--
Aidan Kehoe
2024-11-11 07:35:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Steve Hayes
When I worked as an editor at the University of South Africa
(Unisa), a distance education institution, a lot of the academics who
write study guides or translated them would used "must" a lot.
This struck English-speaking editors and translators as jarring and
authoritarian, and they preferred to say things like "You should do
X or Y..." rather than "You must do X or Y."
Communication protocols across the internet (there are many of them) are
governed by pseudo-standards called RFCs. In RFC-land the words SHOULD
and MUST and MAY have strictly defined meanings, and are always written
in upper case to make them stand out. Likewise for their negatives.
MUST means "this is compulsory".
SHOULD means "this is recommended, but optional".
Same meaning in our Medical Council guidelines:

12.1 You should:
• [...]
• Not treat or prescribe for yourself, (subject to paragraph 12.2).
12.2 You must not prescribe controlled drugs for yourself.
--
‘As I sat looking up at the Guinness ad, I could never figure out /
How your man stayed up on the surfboard after fourteen pints of stout’
(C. Moore)
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-11 09:02:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
When I worked as an editor at the University of South Africa (Unisa),
a distance education institution, a lot of the academics who write
study guides or translated them would used "must" a lot.
I know some of the people who translate the English bridge law into
Danish, and they have a paragraph explaining how they have translated,
"should", "must" and a few others. It is by no means a straightforward
thing to tranlate those.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Silvano
2024-11-11 09:36:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Steve Hayes
When I worked as an editor at the University of South Africa (Unisa),
a distance education institution, a lot of the academics who write
study guides or translated them would used "must" a lot.
I know some of the people who translate the English bridge law into
Danish, and they have a paragraph explaining how they have translated,
"should", "must" and a few others. It is by no means a straightforward
thing to tranlate those.
Is that translation an ongoing process? Is the English bridge law
subject to constant changes? I'd have expected "translated", because I
think that law has been completely translated.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-11-11 11:42:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Silvano
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I know some of the people who translate the English bridge law into
Danish, and they have a paragraph explaining how they have translated,
"should", "must" and a few others. It is by no means a straightforward
thing to tranlate those.
Is that translation an ongoing process?
Depends on what you call ongoing. The bridge laws are revised every ten
years. During that period new ideas are put forward to the laws
committee, but translation is no problem in that connection.
Post by Silvano
Is the English bridge law subject to constant changes?
Yes, but not each year.


A little law technicality for bridge players:

The last revision (of 2017) introduced a new concept, "comparable call".
If a player has made an illegal call, he would be penalized under the
previous law. Under the new law he can make the problem go away if he
can find a comparable call - one which gives (almost) the same
information in a legal way.

That is a huge improvement for the undisturbed flow of the play.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
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