Devil Dog / Double Dog

[John Dean]

Funny how things stick in your mind. I was watching Generation Kill when I
heard one character call another "Devil Dog" and it reminded me we had a
whole thread on the phrase years ago:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/e5fe60757ee2e5fd?dmode=source

"His speech included addressing the soldier as "double-dog". Anyone know
the origin or
meaning of that term?"

We weren't certain at the time though Tony suggested it was 'devil dog' and
that it was a specific US Marine usage.
Which I now find is so, and 'devil dog' has its own Wikipedia entry arising
from the entry on US Marine expressions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Marine_Corps_acronyms_and_expressions#Dwhich links tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_DogApparently from the German Teufelhunden coined in WW1--John "Oorah!" DeanOxford

[Ray O'Hara]

Post by John Dean
Funny how things stick in your mind. I was watching Generation Kill when I
heard one character call another "Devil Dog" and it reminded me we had a

Devil Dog is a nickname Marines were given by WWI German soldiers.
Marines are known variously as "Leathernecks" a nod to their early uniforms
that had a leather collar Devil Dogs and Jarheads
which has various explanations..

[Frank ess]

Post by John Dean
Funny how things stick in your mind. I was watching Generation Kill
when I heard one character call another "Devil Dog" and it reminded
me we
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/e5fe60757ee2e5fd?dmode=source
"His speech included addressing the soldier as "double-dog". Anyone
know the origin or
meaning of that term?"
We weren't certain at the time though Tony suggested it was 'devil
dog' and that it was a specific US Marine usage.
Which I now find is so, and 'devil dog' has its own Wikipedia entry
arising from the entry on US Marine expressions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Marine_Corps_acronyms_and_expressions#Dwhich
links tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_DogApparently from the
German Teufelhunden coined in WW1--John "Oorah!" DeanOxford

I will suggest there may be a contribution by Jean Shepherd's
Christmas Story "double-dog dare" episode to the presence of that
phrase in the community's consciousness, enhancing the likelihood of
its advertant or inadvertant insertion into a speech to a soldier.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Frank ess

Post by John Dean
Funny how things stick in your mind. I was watching Generation Kill
when I heard one character call another "Devil Dog" and it reminded
me we
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/e5fe60757ee2e5fd...
"His speech included addressing the soldier as "double-dog". Anyone
know the origin or
meaning of that term?"
We weren't certain at the time though Tony suggested it was 'devil
dog' and that it was a specific US Marine usage.
Which I now find is so, and 'devil dog' has its own Wikipedia entry
arising from the entry on US Marine expressions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Marine_Corps_acron...
links to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_Dog Apparentlyfrom the
German Teufelhunden coined in WW1--John "Oorah!" Dean Oxford

I will suggest there may be a contribution by Jean Shepherd's
Christmas Story "double-dog dare" episode to the presence of that
phrase in the community's consciousness, enhancing the likelihood of
its advertant or inadvertant insertion into a speech to a soldier.

Jean Shepherd? Until you said that, I'd thought the phrase was part
of every American's childhood since forever. (First appearances in
Google Books in the 1890s.)

On the other hand, I recall hearing "double-dog sure" from only one
person.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Frank ess
I will suggest there may be a contribution by Jean Shepherd's
Christmas Story "double-dog dare" episode to the presence of that
phrase in the community's consciousness, enhancing the likelihood of
its advertant or inadvertant insertion into a speech to a soldier.

Jean Shepherd? Until you said that, I'd thought the phrase was part
of every American's childhood since forever. (First appearances in
Google Books in the 1890s.)

I too am surprised it's that young, but apparently it's a bit older.
In a more elaborate form:

When the bow-legged, wooden-shoed, sourkrout-stinking [sic],
bologne-sausage-eating, hen-roost-robbing Dutch sons of ----- from
Cairo had accomplished the brilliant feat of taking down the
Secession flag on the river bank, they were pointed to another
flag of the same sort, which was flying gloriously and defiantly
about two squares distant (and which their guns did not cover),
and defied, yes, double-big, black-dog dared (as we used to say at
school) to take that flag down.

quoted in William Howard Russell, _Pictures
of Southern Life_, 1861.

Looking for "double dog", I see from an 1855 patent:

For a Machine for Sawing Lumber; ... 5th, The pointed screw dogs.
... 6th, The double dog, which when out of use, may be sunk flush
with the surface of the head block, and may be run in and out for
the purpose of sawing the but and point of shingles.

This sense of "dog" is what the OED defines as

7 e. A grappling-iron with a fang which clutches an object, as a
log, barrel, etc. to be hoisted, or a log to be secured in
position for sawing.

Even though "double dog" made little sense, it never occurred to me
that it might refer to anything but the animal.w
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |It's like grasping the difference
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |between what one usually considers
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |a 'difficult' problem, and what
|*is* a difficult problem. The day
***@hpl.hp.com |one understands *why* counting all
[phone] |the molecules in the Universe isn't
|difficult...there's the leap.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Tina Marie Holmboe

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Frank ess
I will suggest there may be a contribution by Jean Shepherd's
Christmas Story "double-dogdare" episode to the presence of that
phrase in the community's consciousness, enhancing the likelihood of
its advertant or inadvertant insertion into a speech to a soldier.

Jean Shepherd?  Until you said that, I'd thought the phrase was part
of every American's childhood since forever.  (First appearances in
Google Books in the 1890s.)

I too am surprised it's that young, but apparently it's a bit older.
    When the bow-legged, wooden-shoed, sourkrout-stinking [sic],
    bologne-sausage-eating, hen-roost-robbing Dutch sons of ----- from
    Cairo had accomplished the brilliant feat of taking down the
    Secession flag  on the river bank, they were pointed to another
    flag of the same sort, which was flying gloriously and defiantly
    about two squares distant (and which their guns did not cover),
    and defied, yes, double-big, black-dog dared (as we used to say at
    school) to take that flag down.
                          quoted in William Howard Russell, _Pictures
                          of Southern Life_, 1861.

Interesting. One of the 1890s hits had that double big black dog
pattern.

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
    For a Machine for Sawing Lumber; ... 5th, The pointed screw dogs.
    ... 6th, The doubledog, which when out of use, may be sunk flush
    with the surface of the head block, and may be run in and out for
    the purpose of sawing the but and point of shingles.
This sense of "dog" is what the OED defines as
    7 e. A grappling-iron with a fang which clutches an object, as a
    log, barrel, etc. to be hoisted, or a log to be secured in
    position for sawing.
Even though "doubledog" made little sense, it never occurred to me
that it might refer to anything but the animal.

Me neither. If I had to speculate (and obviously I do), I'd guess it
started with "If you don't dare to do this, you're a dog."

--
Jerry Friedman

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Frank ess
I will suggest there may be a contribution by Jean Shepherd's
Christmas Story "double-dogdare" episode to the presence of that
phrase in the community's consciousness, enhancing the likelihood of
its advertant or inadvertant insertion into a speech to a soldier.

Jean Shepherd?  Until you said that, I'd thought the phrase was part
of every American's childhood since forever.  (First appearances in
Google Books in the 1890s.)

I too am surprised it's that young, but apparently it's a bit older.
    When the bow-legged, wooden-shoed, sourkrout-stinking [sic],
    bologne-sausage-eating, hen-roost-robbing Dutch sons of ----- from
    Cairo had accomplished the brilliant feat of taking down the
    Secession flag  on the river bank, they were pointed to another
    flag of the same sort, which was flying gloriously and defiantly
    about two squares distant (and which their guns did not cover),
    and defied, yes, double-big, black-dog dared (as we used to say at
    school) to take that flag down.
                          quoted in William Howard Russell, _Pictures
                          of Southern Life_, 1861.

Interesting.   One of the 1890s hits had that double big black dog
pattern.

...

/Dialect Notes, Part V: Kentucky Words/ (1896)

http://books.google.com/books?id=G3QKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA229#v=onepage&q=&f=false

--
Jerry Friedman

[Pat Durkin]

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Frank ess
I will suggest there may be a contribution by Jean Shepherd's
Christmas Story "double-dogdare" episode to the presence of that
phrase in the community's consciousness, enhancing the
likelihood of
its advertant or inadvertant insertion into a speech to a
soldier.

Jean Shepherd? Until you said that, I'd thought the phrase was
part
of every American's childhood since forever. (First appearances
in
Google Books in the 1890s.)

I too am surprised it's that young, but apparently it's a bit older.
When the bow-legged, wooden-shoed, sourkrout-stinking [sic],
bologne-sausage-eating, hen-roost-robbing Dutch sons of ----- from
Cairo had accomplished the brilliant feat of taking down the
Secession flag on the river bank, they were pointed to another
flag of the same sort, which was flying gloriously and defiantly
about two squares distant (and which their guns did not cover),
and defied, yes, double-big, black-dog dared (as we used to say at
school) to take that flag down.
quoted in William Howard Russell, _Pictures
of Southern Life_, 1861.

Interesting. One of the 1890s hits had that double big black dog
pattern.

...

/Dialect Notes, Part V: Kentucky Words/ (1896)

http://books.google.com/books?id=G3QKAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA229#v=onepage&q=&f=false


What an interesting book!
I can recall hearing "double dare" and "double dog dare" as a child.
My brother at age nine and ten ran with a neighborhood gang that got
rather competitive in their challenges. "I dare you with salt and
pepper on it", "I diggity-dog double dare you", and other such
improvements were often hurled. I suppose I might also have uttered
such challenges, just before running to hide in a shed or behind a
tree. I suppose I might have just so challenged some of his gang
before I got caught behind the church and beaten up. That was probably
between Mass and class.

But I think that I may have also read the dares in some Tarkington
books, too (Penrod and/or Penrod and Sam), if not in some Twain stuff.

[Frank ess]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Frank ess
I will suggest there may be a contribution by Jean Shepherd's
Christmas Story "double-dogdare" episode to the presence of that
phrase in the community's consciousness, enhancing the
likelihood of its advertant or inadvertant insertion into a
speech to a soldier.

Jean Shepherd? Until you said that, I'd thought the phrase was
part of every American's childhood since forever. (First
appearances in Google Books in the 1890s.)

I too am surprised it's that young, but apparently it's a bit
When the bow-legged, wooden-shoed, sourkrout-stinking [sic],
bologne-sausage-eating, hen-roost-robbing Dutch sons of ----- from
Cairo had accomplished the brilliant feat of taking down the
Secession flag on the river bank, they were pointed to another
flag of the same sort, which was flying gloriously and defiantly
about two squares distant (and which their guns did not cover),
and defied, yes, double-big, black-dog dared (as we used to say at
school) to take that flag down.
quoted in William Howard Russell, _Pictures
of Southern Life_, 1861.

Interesting. One of the 1890s hits had that double big black dog
pattern.

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum
For a Machine for Sawing Lumber; ... 5th, The pointed screw dogs.
... 6th, The doubledog, which when out of use, may be sunk flush
with the surface of the head block, and may be run in and out for
the purpose of sawing the but and point of shingles.
This sense of "dog" is what the OED defines as
7 e. A grappling-iron with a fang which clutches an object, as a
log, barrel, etc. to be hoisted, or a log to be secured in
position for sawing.
Even though "doubledog" made little sense, it never occurred to me
that it might refer to anything but the animal.

Me neither. If I had to speculate (and obviously I do), I'd guess
it started with "If you don't dare to do this, you're a dog."

And to make it even stronger, you're two dogs ...

Now that non-animal "dogs" have been mentioned, in racing there were
"dog clutches" that did not slip: the surfaces were much like gears,
in that depressions and elevations matched, and once engaged did not
change positions relative to one another. Seems to me they depended on
wheel spin to manage starts. Certainly a "tougher" or stronger
arrangement for connecting a power source to a mobile object.

"Dog ring" also rings a bell.

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

Post by Frank ess
Now that non-animal "dogs" have been mentioned, in racing there were
"dog clutches" that did not slip: the surfaces were much like gears,
in that depressions and elevations matched, and once engaged did not
change positions relative to one another. Seems to me they depended on
wheel spin to manage starts. Certainly a "tougher" or stronger
arrangement for connecting a power source to a mobile object.
"Dog ring" also rings a bell.

Here is an edited version of the OED offering on mechanical "dogs" (I
particularly like d in which a dog raises a monkey):

7. A name given to various mechanical devices, usually having or
consisting of a tooth or claw, used for gripping or holding. Among
these are:

a. A clamp for supporting something (e.g. part of a building), or
fastening or holding it in place.

b. An instrument for extracting teeth (obs.).

c. An implement for drawing poles out of the ground ...

d. A grappling-iron for raising the monkey of a pile-driver, or
clutching and withdrawing tools used in well-boring or mining.

e. A grappling-iron with a fang which clutches an object, as a log,
barrel, etc. to be hoisted, or a log to be secured in position for
sawing.

f. pl. Nippers used in wire-drawing.

g. At the Mint, a device consisting of two levers mounted on a small
carriage running on wheels along the draw-bench, and so arranged as
to constitute a pair of pincers which seize the fillet and draw it
through the opening at the head of the draw-bench.

h. One of ‘the converging set screws which establish the bed-tool of
a punching-press in direct coincidence with the punch’

i. A projection or tooth acting as a detent, e.g. in a lock; a catch
or click which engages the teeth of a ratchet-wheel.

j. In a fire-arm = DOG-HEAD ...

k. A drag for the wheel of a vehicle.

l. ‘A clamp fastened to a piece suspended on the centres of a lathe,
by which the rotation of the chuck or face-plate is imparted to the
piece to be turned’ ...

m. An adjustable stop placed in a machine to change direction of
motion.

n. Ship-building = DOG-SHORE. (Smyth Sailor's Word-bk.)

o. ‘A lever used by blacksmiths in hooping cart-wheels’

p. A kind of spike used on railways for fastening flat-bottomed or
bridge rails to the sleepers: = DOG-NAIL.

q. An appliance for toasting bread, etc.

[tsuidf]

Post by Frank ess

Post by John Dean
Funny how things stick in your mind. I was watching Generation Kill
when I heard one character call another "Devil Dog" and it reminded
me we
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.usage.english/msg/e5fe60757ee2e5fd...
"His speech included addressing the soldier as "double-dog". Anyone
know the origin or
meaning of that term?"
We weren't certain at the time though Tony suggested it was 'devil
dog' and that it was a specific US Marine usage.
Which I now find is so, and 'devil dog' has its own Wikipedia entry
arising from the entry on US Marine expressions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Marine_Corps_acron...
links tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil_DogApparentlyfrom the
German Teufelhunden coined in WW1--John "Oorah!" DeanOxford

I will suggest there may be a contribution by Jean Shepherd's
Christmas Story "double-dog dare" episode to the presence of that
phrase in the community's consciousness, enhancing the likelihood of
its advertant or inadvertant insertion into a speech to a soldier.

I'm disappointed... I thought this was going to be a thread about
reminscences of childhood food -- see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake's
. This sort of thing seemed to feature heavily in the lunchboxes of
the 1960s in the northeastern US. Surely mostly chemical, but -- oh,
the memories!

cheers,
Stephanie