Discussion:
Anbiguity in a news headline
(too old to reply)
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-09-26 20:31:04 UTC
Permalink
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.

"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"

Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".

Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.

It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".

The article:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800

coach:
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Sam Plusnet
2020-09-27 00:52:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
I too read the headline & wondered which type of coach was involved -
but decided I didn't care either way.
--
Sam Plusnet
RH Draney
2020-09-27 07:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
   "Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
I too read the headline & wondered which type of coach was involved -
but decided I didn't care either way.
"Coach" is also the name of a certain brand of high-end leather
goods...some years ago, there was a big dust-up on eBay when people's
auctions were getting pulled because they used the common word in an
item description ("porcelain figure of little-league ball player and his
coach")....r
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-09-27 09:04:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
IRTA 'spayed'
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
I too read the headline & wondered which type of coach was involved -
but decided I didn't care either way.
Was it garaged? a horse can be in-stalled.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Snidely
2020-09-27 07:48:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]

I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."

Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?

/dps
--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15
b***@shaw.ca
2020-09-27 07:57:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Sometimes, hilarity ensues.

bill
Peter Young
2020-09-27 09:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE TI)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
charles
2020-09-27 09:58:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Peter.
Inter-city rather than intra-city. Seats are more comfortable for a start.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
occam
2020-09-27 14:18:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Peter.
Inter-city rather than intra-city. Seats are more comfortable for a start.
Not to mention the on-board loos.
Ken Blake
2020-09-27 15:50:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by charles
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Peter.
Inter-city rather than intra-city. Seats are more comfortable for a start.
Not to mention the on-board loos.
Do all coaches have on-board loos, or only some of them?
--
Ken
charles
2020-09-27 16:48:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by occam
Post by charles
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at
least one coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
coach: https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a
device that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol
has been consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/
starting the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of
coach is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes,
it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Peter.
Inter-city rather than intra-city. Seats are more comfortable for a start.
Not to mention the on-board loos.
Do all coaches have on-board loos, or only some of them?
I ssupect mostg of the modern ones do. But, I heard a driver saying please
don't use it since I have to clean it out at the end of the day.

They aso tend to have air-conditioning.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Peter Young
2020-09-27 20:41:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by occam
Post by charles
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Peter.
Inter-city rather than intra-city. Seats are more comfortable for a start.
Not to mention the on-board loos.
Do all coaches have on-board loos, or only some of them?
Only some.

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE TI)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Ken Blake
2020-09-28 15:35:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by Ken Blake
Post by occam
Post by charles
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Peter.
Inter-city rather than intra-city. Seats are more comfortable for a start.
Not to mention the on-board loos.
Do all coaches have on-board loos, or only some of them?
Only some.
Thanks. That's what I suspected.
--
Ken
Tony Cooper
2020-09-27 12:56:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.

Not readers who know what American major university football coaches
earn, though.
Ken Blake
2020-09-27 15:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not to me. I have no idea what that would mean.
--
Ken
Ken Blake
2020-09-27 16:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not to me. I have no idea what that would mean.
I take that back. You mean he flew coach *class* on a airplane. Yes, I
would understand it, even though I more commonly call that class "economy."
--
Ken
Tony Cooper
2020-09-27 16:26:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not to me. I have no idea what that would mean.
I take that back. You mean he flew coach *class* on a airplane. Yes, I
would understand it, even though I more commonly call that class "economy."
Over the years I've purchased hundreds of airfare tickets. For most
of that time, there were two types of tickets: first class and coach.
I've never used the term "coach class", though. "Coach" alone
describes it.

That some airlines now call "Coach" "Economy" doesn't change the
meaning to me. I've never liked the term, anyway.
Ken Blake
2020-09-27 17:52:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not to me. I have no idea what that would mean.
I take that back. You mean he flew coach *class* on a airplane. Yes, I
would understand it, even though I more commonly call that class "economy."
Over the years I've purchased hundreds of airfare tickets. For most
of that time, there were two types of tickets: first class and coach.
I've never used the term "coach class", though. "Coach" alone
describes it.
Yes, I didn't mean that "coach class" was a term. I've never used that
term either. I just used the word "class" to describe what I finally
realized "coach" meant in your sentence.
Post by Tony Cooper
That some airlines now call "Coach" "Economy" doesn't change the
meaning to me. I've never liked the term, anyway.
No, it doesn't change the meaning; I didn't mean to suggest that it did.
Yes, I've seen both terms. I fly American Airlines more than any other
airline, and if I'm not mistaken, that's the term American uses, so
that's the term I find most common.

I have no preference for either term.
--
Ken
Lewis
2020-09-27 19:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not to me. I have no idea what that would mean.
I take that back. You mean he flew coach *class* on a airplane. Yes, I
would understand it, even though I more commonly call that class "economy."
Over the years I've purchased hundreds of airfare tickets. For most
of that time, there were two types of tickets: first class and coach.
I've never used the term "coach class", though. "Coach" alone
describes it.
That some airlines now call "Coach" "Economy" doesn't change the
meaning to me. I've never liked the term, anyway.
Economy is coach after the sliced the space between rows in half so
anyone who is taller than 5 feet has to sit with their knees in their
chest.

I've flown far less than you, but I call it coach or steerage, not
economy.

But then, I am highly resistant to changing what I call something based n
marketers. The NFL Stadium in Denver is still "Mile High Stadium"
regardless of which band of thieves and crooks has currently purchased
the name.

OTOH, I seem to have no issue with Coors Field or the Pepsi Center.
after all, consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.
--
The Auditors avoided death by never going so far as to get a life
--The Thief of Time
Peter Young
2020-09-27 20:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not to me. I have no idea what that would mean.
I take that back. You mean he flew coach *class* on a airplane. Yes, I
would understand it, even though I more commonly call that class "economy."
Over the years I've purchased hundreds of airfare tickets. For most
of that time, there were two types of tickets: first class and coach.
I've never used the term "coach class", though. "Coach" alone
describes it.
That some airlines now call "Coach" "Economy" doesn't change the
meaning to me. I've never liked the term, anyway.
Doesn't that usage go back to American trains, which sued to have "coach
class" for those who wanted to pay the lowest fare?

Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE TI)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Mark Brader
2020-09-27 22:26:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Doesn't that usage go back to American trains, which sued to have "coach
class" for those who wanted to pay the lowest fare?
Grin. Usually it's other people who find reasons to sue the railways.
--
Mark Brader | "Next time I will proofread my before sending it out. ;-)"
Toronto | --Kevin Rushforth
***@vex.net | "What? What!? Proofread your what??!!!" --Larry Smith
Mark Brader
2020-09-27 16:11:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not to me. I have no idea what that would mean.
Economy class.

From North American railways, where first-class cars were historically
"parlor cars" or "chair cars", and second-class ones were "coaches".

Everyone knows that.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "UNIX make moving not pain
***@vex.net | but almost pleasure." -- "Housewife", 1941
Ken Blake
2020-09-27 18:44:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not to me. I have no idea what that would mean.
Economy class.
Yes, as I said in another message, I realized it soon after sending the
above.
Post by Mark Brader
From North American railways, where first-class cars were historically
"parlor cars" or "chair cars", and second-class ones were "coaches".
Everyone knows that.
I haven't been on any train but a commuter train in the USA since I was
about ten years old, so I have very little idea what anything is called
on a train.
--
Ken
Mark Brader
2020-09-27 18:45:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
I haven't been on any train but a commuter train in the USA since I was
about ten years old...
Well, *there's* your *prob*lem. :-)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | ... "reasonable system" is of course defined as
***@vex.net | "any one *I've* ever used..." -- Steve Summit
charles
2020-09-27 16:50:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least
one coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
coach: https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a
device that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol
has been consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of
coach is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes,
it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not to me. I have no idea what that would mean.
"Flew coach" - the cheapest fare possible.

One of Margaret Thatcher's ministers (or possibly tehnlady herself) said
"Only life's failures travel by coach"
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle
Mark Brader
2020-09-27 18:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by charles
"Flew coach" - the cheapest fare possible.
No, the worst class of seating available. The *fare* likely depends
not only on the class, but on when you reserve and what restrictions
on your travel you accept.

Some airlines used to speak of their more restrictive fares as
"charter-class", but this did not imply a different class of seating
and I don't think the term is used any more.
--
Mark Brader | this take
Toronto | "If is shall really to
***@vex.net | flying I never it."
| -- Piglet ("Winnie-the-Pooh", A.A. Milne)

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Ken Blake
2020-09-27 18:54:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by charles
"Flew coach" - the cheapest fare possible.
No, the worst class of seating available. The *fare* likely depends
not only on the class, but on when you reserve and what restrictions
on your travel you accept.
...and from whom you bought your ticket.
--
Ken
Mark Brader
2020-09-27 19:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by charles
"Flew coach" - the cheapest fare possible.
No, the worst class of seating available. The *fare* likely depends
not only on the class, but on when you reserve and what restrictions
on your travel you accept.
...and from whom you bought your ticket.
In my English, the "fare" is the part of what you pay that goes to the
carrier, not to middlemen or taxing agencies.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Dr. Slipher, I have found your Planet X."
***@vex.net -- Clyde Tombaugh (1906-97), 1930-02-18
Ken Blake
2020-09-27 19:57:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by charles
"Flew coach" - the cheapest fare possible.
No, the worst class of seating available. The *fare* likely depends
not only on the class, but on when you reserve and what restrictions
on your travel you accept.
...and from whom you bought your ticket.
In my English, the "fare" is the part of what you pay that goes to the
carrier, not to middlemen or taxing agencies.
That's not my English, but even if that's what you mean by "fare," my
point is still valid. If you buy directly from the airline, what you pay
all goes to the airline. If you buy from a cut-rate seller of tickets
such as Expedia, you typically pay less, so what goes to the airline is
less.
--
Ken
b***@shaw.ca
2020-09-27 20:08:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by charles
"Flew coach" - the cheapest fare possible.
No, the worst class of seating available. The *fare* likely depends
not only on the class, but on when you reserve and what restrictions
on your travel you accept.
...and from whom you bought your ticket.
In my English, the "fare" is the part of what you pay that goes to the
carrier, not to middlemen or taxing agencies.
That's not my English, but even if that's what you mean by "fare," my
point is still valid. If you buy directly from the airline, what you pay
all goes to the airline. If you buy from a cut-rate seller of tickets
such as Expedia, you typically pay less, so what goes to the airline is
less.
Surely the fare includes various taxes. In Canada, there are also
"airport improvement fees" that go to the airport authority. The
whole fare is collected by the airline, but it has to distribute
portions to one or more levels of government and the airport.

bill
Mark Brader
2020-09-27 22:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
In my English, the "fare" is the part of what you pay that goes to the
carrier, not to middlemen or taxing agencies.
That's not my English, but even if that's what you mean by "fare," my
point is still valid. If you buy directly from the airline, what you pay
all goes to the airline. If you buy from a cut-rate seller of tickets
such as Expedia, you typically pay less, so what goes to the airline is
less.
Hmm. Okay, if that sort of thing goes on, you have a point. I assumed
the middleman was taking a loss when their total price was below what
the airline would have charged in the same situation.
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Surely the fare includes various taxes. In Canada, there are also
"airport improvement fees" that go to the airport authority. The
whole fare is collected by the airline, but it has to distribute
portions to one or more levels of government and the airport.
You may loosely speak of it that way, but as far as I'm concerned, what
the airline collects is the fare plus taxes and fees. In 2009 Porter
Airlines gave me this accounting for a ticket I'd bought -- I've reworded
slightly here and there.

$140.00 air fare
7.94 air traveler security charge
25.00 Nav Canada fees and surcharges
15.00 airport improvement fee
5.57 US agriculture tax
7.80 US immigration tax
35.88 US transportation tax
5.02 passenger facility charge
2.79 Sep 11th US security tax
9.40 GST <*>
30.00 seat reservations
1.50 GST on seat reservations

$285.90 total

<*> i.e. sales tax, presumably this one being on the first 4 items

Note the first item.

I meant to post this before, but until Bill said "airport improvement
fee", I couldn't remember what to grep on to find it.
--
Mark Brader | It is so alpha that Jean-Luc Godard is filming there.
Toronto | It is so alpha that it's 64-bit RISC from the 1990s...
***@vex.net | It's so alpha that when you turn it sideways,
| it looks like an ox... -- Nick Mathewson

My text in this article is in the public domain.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-09-28 06:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
Post by charles
"Flew coach" - the cheapest fare possible.
No, the worst class of seating available. The *fare* likely depends
not only on the class, but on when you reserve and what restrictions
on your travel you accept.
...and from whom you bought your ticket.
In my English, the "fare" is the part of what you pay that goes to the
carrier, not to middlemen or taxing agencies.
That's not my English,
or anyone else's, I suspect.
Post by Ken Blake
but even if that's what you mean by "fare," my point is still valid.
If you buy directly from the airline, what you pay all goes to the
airline. If you buy from a cut-rate seller of tickets such as Expedia,
you typically pay less, so what goes to the airline is less.
--
athel
Mark Brader
2020-09-28 08:43:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Mark Brader
In my English, the "fare" is the part of what you pay that goes to the
carrier, not to middlemen or taxing agencies.
That's not my English,
or anyone else's, I suspect.
Good thing I already posted evidence, then.
--
Mark Brader | "...'consulted' the public, using 'consulted' with
Toronto | the special meaning of 'told them what I think'."
***@vex.net | --Cheryl Perkins
occam
2020-09-30 06:38:57 UTC
Permalink
One of Margaret Thatcher's ministers (or possibly the lady herself) said
"Only life's failures travel by coach"
Another, more successful and brighter person (Richard Branson, owner of
Virgin Atlantic) has said that he always booked economy class before he
founded Virgin Atlantic.


Source:
<https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/article-1158583/Richard-Branson-I-book-economy.html>
(beware of wrap>
Lewis
2020-09-27 19:20:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not readers who know what American major university football coaches
earn, though.
Coach covers all the coaches, and other than the top dog, they are paid
a pittance.
--
Margo: P.S. We still hate you. but it's the twenty-first century. It shouldn't
be this hard for a girl to get an evil demigod abortion.
Eliot: And we're emotionally advanced. We can hold resentment and sympathy for
a person at the same time.
Tony Cooper
2020-09-27 20:02:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 19:20:00 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not readers who know what American major university football coaches
earn, though.
Coach covers all the coaches, and other than the top dog, they are paid
a pittance.
Not using my definition of "pittance". The salaries for the assistant
coaches at University of Florida are in the $500,000 range.

That's just what the university pays them. Nike adds a $10,000
"stipend" for each based on the university's apparal contract. Not
published is any amount or perk (like use of an automobile) provided
by boosters.

Then there are the contingency bonuses in the contracts. In 2020,
that bonus was $100,000 for each member of the coaching staff for
finishing rated in the Top 10 teams.

Those numbers are a pittance compared to head coach Dan Mullen's $6.1
million, but the assistants are on food stamps.
Sam Plusnet
2020-09-28 01:22:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 19:20:00 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not readers who know what American major university football coaches
earn, though.
Coach covers all the coaches, and other than the top dog, they are paid
a pittance.
Not using my definition of "pittance". The salaries for the assistant
coaches at University of Florida are in the $500,000 range.
That's just what the university pays them. Nike adds a $10,000
"stipend" for each based on the university's apparal contract. Not
published is any amount or perk (like use of an automobile) provided
by boosters.
Then there are the contingency bonuses in the contracts. In 2020,
that bonus was $100,000 for each member of the coaching staff for
finishing rated in the Top 10 teams.
Those numbers are a pittance compared to head coach Dan Mullen's $6.1
million, but the assistants are on food stamps.
High schools (etc.?) also have coaches don't they?
There must be far more of those than the rare birds you're discussing above.
--
Sam Plusnet
Tony Cooper
2020-09-28 03:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 19:20:00 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not readers who know what American major university football coaches
earn, though.
Coach covers all the coaches, and other than the top dog, they are paid
a pittance.
Not using my definition of "pittance". The salaries for the assistant
coaches at University of Florida are in the $500,000 range.
That's just what the university pays them. Nike adds a $10,000
"stipend" for each based on the university's apparal contract. Not
published is any amount or perk (like use of an automobile) provided
by boosters.
Then there are the contingency bonuses in the contracts. In 2020,
that bonus was $100,000 for each member of the coaching staff for
finishing rated in the Top 10 teams.
Those numbers are a pittance compared to head coach Dan Mullen's $6.1
million, but the assistants are on food stamps.
High schools (etc.?) also have coaches don't they?
There must be far more of those than the rare birds you're discussing above.
Yes, high schools have coaches. However, this has been about
"Americin major university coaches" since the beginning. The figures
are not even representitive of non-major university coaches.
Peter T. Daniels
2020-09-28 04:07:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Yes, high schools have coaches. However, this has been about
"Americin major university coaches" since the beginning. The figures
are not even representitive of non-major university coaches.
So, you don't like it when someone takes _your_ words into a context
you didn't intend.
RH Draney
2020-09-28 07:59:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 19:20:00 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not readers who know what American major university football coaches
earn, though.
Coach covers all the coaches, and other than the top dog, they are paid
a pittance.
Not using my definition of "pittance". The salaries for the assistant
coaches at University of Florida are in the $500,000 range.
That's just what the university pays them. Nike adds a $10,000
"stipend" for each based on the university's apparal contract. Not
published is any amount or perk (like use of an automobile) provided
by boosters.
Then there are the contingency bonuses in the contracts. In 2020,
that bonus was $100,000 for each member of the coaching staff for
finishing rated in the Top 10 teams.
Those numbers are a pittance compared to head coach Dan Mullen's $6.1
million, but the assistants are on food stamps.
High schools (etc.?) also have coaches don't they?
There must be far more of those than the rare birds you're discussing above.
Yes, high schools have coaches. However, this has been about
"Americin major university coaches" since the beginning. The figures
are not even representitive of non-major university coaches.
This was published over seven years ago, but I don't think the findings
have changed much since:


https://www.fastcompany.com/1672861/infographic-whos-your-states-highest-paid-public-employee

....r
Sam Plusnet
2020-09-28 18:36:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 19:20:00 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not readers who know what American major university football coaches
earn, though.
Coach covers all the coaches, and other than the top dog, they are paid
a pittance.
Not using my definition of "pittance". The salaries for the assistant
coaches at University of Florida are in the $500,000 range.
That's just what the university pays them. Nike adds a $10,000
"stipend" for each based on the university's apparal contract. Not
published is any amount or perk (like use of an automobile) provided
by boosters.
Then there are the contingency bonuses in the contracts. In 2020,
that bonus was $100,000 for each member of the coaching staff for
finishing rated in the Top 10 teams.
Those numbers are a pittance compared to head coach Dan Mullen's $6.1
million, but the assistants are on food stamps.
High schools (etc.?) also have coaches don't they?
There must be far more of those than the rare birds you're discussing above.
Yes, high schools have coaches. However, this has been about
"Americin major university coaches" since the beginning. The figures
are not even representitive of non-major university coaches.
Ah. I thought it all started with your "Coaches travelling coach"
remark, & thus assumed all coaches were in the frame.
--
Sam Plusnet
Tony Cooper
2020-09-28 18:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 19:20:00 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not readers who know what American major university football coaches
earn, though.
Coach covers all the coaches, and other than the top dog, they are paid
a pittance.
Not using my definition of "pittance". The salaries for the assistant
coaches at University of Florida are in the $500,000 range.
That's just what the university pays them. Nike adds a $10,000
"stipend" for each based on the university's apparal contract. Not
published is any amount or perk (like use of an automobile) provided
by boosters.
Then there are the contingency bonuses in the contracts. In 2020,
that bonus was $100,000 for each member of the coaching staff for
finishing rated in the Top 10 teams.
Those numbers are a pittance compared to head coach Dan Mullen's $6.1
million, but the assistants are on food stamps.
High schools (etc.?) also have coaches don't they?
There must be far more of those than the rare birds you're discussing above.
Yes, high schools have coaches. However, this has been about
"Americin major university coaches" since the beginning. The figures
are not even representitive of non-major university coaches.
Ah. I thought it all started with your "Coaches travelling coach"
remark, & thus assumed all coaches were in the frame.
The sentence "The coach flew coach" did not specify at which level the
coach coaches. However, my next sentence - "Not readers who know what
American major university football coaches earn, though." did qualify
which level the coach coaches.
Ken Blake
2020-09-28 15:43:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 19:20:00 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not readers who know what American major university football coaches
earn, though.
Coach covers all the coaches, and other than the top dog, they are paid
a pittance.
Not using my definition of "pittance". The salaries for the assistant
coaches at University of Florida are in the $500,000 range.
That's just what the university pays them. Nike adds a $10,000
"stipend" for each based on the university's apparal contract. Not
published is any amount or perk (like use of an automobile) provided
by boosters.
Then there are the contingency bonuses in the contracts. In 2020,
that bonus was $100,000 for each member of the coaching staff for
finishing rated in the Top 10 teams.
Those numbers are a pittance compared to head coach Dan Mullen's $6.1
million, but the assistants are on food stamps.
High schools (etc.?) also have coaches don't they?
There must be far more of those than the rare birds you're discussing above.
And also lower-level schools than high schools. It wasn't football, but
I used to be the chess coach at two schools here--one an elementary
school and the other a middle school. At each of them I spent 1-1/2
hours each week and was paid a pittance, $15.

I didn't do it for the money, but because I enjoyed doing it. I would
have done it if I were paid nothing.
--
Ken
Lewis
2020-09-28 02:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 19:20:00 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not readers who know what American major university football coaches
earn, though.
Coach covers all the coaches, and other than the top dog, they are paid
a pittance.
Not using my definition of "pittance". The salaries for the assistant
coaches at University of Florida are in the $500,000 range.
All of them? I bet you are only counting the top 2 or 3 for the football
team that brings in all the revenue and gets all of the money. I bet the
JV volleyball coach is making slightly more than minimum wage, at best.

There was a point when the CU women's basketball team was their most
successful team and the coach for that was making less than 1/20th what
the coach of the football team made, if I recall the numbers correctly.
She was also making less than half of what the previous (male) coach of
the women's team made.
--
"Are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Wuh, I think so, Brain, but how will we get three pink flamingos
into one pair of Capri pants?"
Tony Cooper
2020-09-28 03:20:07 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 02:19:43 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 19:20:00 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not readers who know what American major university football coaches
earn, though.
Coach covers all the coaches, and other than the top dog, they are paid
a pittance.
Not using my definition of "pittance". The salaries for the assistant
coaches at University of Florida are in the $500,000 range.
All of them? I bet you are only counting the top 2 or 3 for the football
team that brings in all the revenue and gets all of the money. I bet the
JV volleyball coach is making slightly more than minimum wage, at best.
Please read what I've written: "American major university football
coaches". So it's "All of them" in *that* group.
Post by Lewis
There was a point when the CU women's basketball team was their most
successful team and the coach for that was making less than 1/20th what
the coach of the football team made, if I recall the numbers correctly.
She was also making less than half of what the previous (male) coach of
the women's team made.
Chrysi Cat
2020-09-28 11:01:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 19:20:00 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
It is possible in AmE to write "The coach flew coach" and the meaning
would be clear to readers.
Not readers who know what American major university football coaches
earn, though.
Coach covers all the coaches, and other than the top dog, they are paid
a pittance.
Not using my definition of "pittance". The salaries for the assistant
coaches at University of Florida are in the $500,000 range.
All of them? I bet you are only counting the top 2 or 3 for the football
team that brings in all the revenue and gets all of the money. I bet the
JV volleyball coach is making slightly more than minimum wage, at best.
There was a point when the CU women's basketball team was their most
successful team and the coach for that was making less than 1/20th what
the coach of the football team made, if I recall the numbers correctly.
She was also making less than half of what the previous (male) coach of
the women's team made.
In defense of Sox Walseth, he was enough of a legend (though mainly from
when he was the men's coach) that the state might have rioted if he'd
been paid any less--

--and of course, Ceal Barry was only about half a decade out of
university herself!

I'd not be surprised if she got up to about 80% of Walseth's
inflation-adjusted salary by the time she retired from the bench herself.

But wow, has no one since, there, come anywhere close to either her /or/
his success. Good women's ball moved north, first to Fort Collins and
then to Laramie, and then vanished altogether from the time zone

Also, there was admittedly no excuse for her to make a twentieth of what
McCartney did. And I doubt she was living in penury anyway.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Lewis
2020-09-27 19:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Where "long-distance" is a distance relative to the UK. There are
certainly intracity coaches in the UK that over her would be part of the
normal bus routes and don't involve what we would think of as "long-
distance buses'.

There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from start
to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
--
It was easy to be a vegetarian by day. It was preventing yourself
from becoming a humanitarian at night that took the real effort.
Sam Plusnet
2020-09-28 01:34:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Where "long-distance" is a distance relative to the UK. There are
certainly intracity coaches in the UK that over her would be part of the
normal bus routes and don't involve what we would think of as "long-
distance buses'.
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from start
to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Even our local bus route takes an hour from start to end, and that is
nothing like a long distance route nor a long-distance coach.

It's around 15 miles as the crow flies, but the route is a fair bit
longer as it meanders around to serve the whole area.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2020-09-28 04:06:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Where "long-distance" is a distance relative to the UK. There are
certainly intracity coaches in the UK that over her would be part of the
normal bus routes and don't involve what we would think of as "long-
distance buses'.
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from start
to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Even our local bus route takes an hour from start to end, and that is
nothing like a long distance route nor a long-distance coach.
It's around 15 miles as the crow flies, but the route is a fair bit
longer as it meanders around to serve the whole area.
There used to be two bus routes that ran almost the entire length
of Manhattan, the M5 and the M10, but a few years ago they were
cut in half (and there isn't even a free transfer between the M5
and the M55, or the M10 and the M20; in each case the northern
half kept the old number). They took at least two hours. Most of
the Express Buses (premium fare, coach-type equipment but no rest
room) go from extreme parts of the Outer Boroughs to Midtown, but
some go all the way to Downtown. (Vice versa for the ones from
Staten Island; some go through New Jersey [no stops] to the Holland
Tunnel, others via the Verraz(z)ano Bridge through the Brooklyn-
Battery Tunnel to Downtown, a few continue on to Midtown.)
Peter Moylan
2020-09-28 04:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Young
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Where "long-distance" is a distance relative to the UK. There are
certainly intracity coaches in the UK that over her would be part
of the normal bus routes and don't involve what we would think of
as "long- distance buses'.
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from
start to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Even our local bus route takes an hour from start to end, and that
is nothing like a long distance route nor a long-distance coach.
It's around 15 miles as the crow flies, but the route is a fair bit
longer as it meanders around to serve the whole area.
The meandering can make a huge difference. Years ago, it occurred to me
that it might be more socially responsible for me to take a bus to work
rather than driving. After checking the timetables, it turned out that
that would turn my 15-minute drive into a bus trip of well over two
hours, with a change of buses in the middle. I had to give up the plan.

The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic problem
remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place before finally
heading towards where you really want to go. This could be fixed by
adding more buses, allowing more direct routes, but the bus company
won't do that because patronage is too low. And patronage will continue
to be low as long as the routes continue to be so indirect.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
Tony Cooper
2020-09-28 13:10:47 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:24:31 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic problem
remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place before finally
heading towards where you really want to go. This could be fixed by
adding more buses, allowing more direct routes, but the bus company
won't do that because patronage is too low. And patronage will continue
to be low as long as the routes continue to be so indirect.
How would the bus company know what your destination is so they can
plan a direct route?
Peter Moylan
2020-09-28 14:05:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:24:31 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This
could be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes,
but the bus company won't do that because patronage is too low.
And patronage will continue to be low as long as the routes
continue to be so indirect.
How would the bus company know what your destination is so they can
plan a direct route?
They don't know _my_ destination, but they surely would have data on
which were the most popular destinations.

Some of that dated from before when the bus services were cut. It was
known that a lot of people wanted to get from A to B, and a lot of
others wanted to get from A to C. Then some idiot decided that a good
cost-cutting measure would be to run a bus from A to B via C; and
suddenly the passenger numbers dropped, because the trip from A to B
took twice as long.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-09-28 14:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:24:31 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This
could be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes,
but the bus company won't do that because patronage is too low.
And patronage will continue to be low as long as the routes
continue to be so indirect.
How would the bus company know what your destination is so they can
plan a direct route?
They don't know _my_ destination, but they surely would have data on
which were the most popular destinations.
Even without such data they should be able to guess that you wanted to
go to the place named on the front of the bus, or to a place in that
direction.
Post by Peter Moylan
Some of that dated from before when the bus services were cut. It was
known that a lot of people wanted to get from A to B, and a lot of
others wanted to get from A to C. Then some idiot decided that a good
cost-cutting measure would be to run a bus from A to B via C; and
suddenly the passenger numbers dropped, because the trip from A to B
took twice as long.
--
athel
Ken Blake
2020-09-28 15:31:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:24:31 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This
could be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes,
but the bus company won't do that because patronage is too low.
And patronage will continue to be low as long as the routes
continue to be so indirect.
How would the bus company know what your destination is so they can
plan a direct route?
They don't know _my_ destination, but they surely would have data on
which were the most popular destinations.
Even without such data they should be able to guess that you wanted to
go to the place named on the front of the bus, or to a place in that
direction.
Or to a place near one of the stops the bus makes, even if the route is
circuitous and your stop is not in the direction toward the buses final
stop.
--
Ken
Tony Cooper
2020-09-28 16:29:47 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 00:05:43 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:24:31 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This
could be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes,
but the bus company won't do that because patronage is too low.
And patronage will continue to be low as long as the routes
continue to be so indirect.
How would the bus company know what your destination is so they can
plan a direct route?
They don't know _my_ destination, but they surely would have data on
which were the most popular destinations.
I still don't understand how a bus route can be set up to provide
direct routes to any destination.

Let's say you live in the Happy Homes district and that you want to
take a bus to the University campus. A bus route from Happy Homes to
the University would have to follow a circuitous route to serve the
public.

There would be several bus stops in the Happy Homes district, and
several bus stops in other districts between Happy Homes and the
University unless Happy Homes was an enclave of University employees
and students, and there were enough University employees and students
in the Happy Homes district to make that direct run cost effective for
the bus company.

However, I'm assuming that University employees and students live in
several districts and are not all bunched together in Happy Homes.

The bus company could set up routes that terminate at the University,
but I can't imagine how they could set up direct routes from single
origination points.
Lewis
2020-09-28 16:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 00:05:43 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:24:31 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This
could be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes,
but the bus company won't do that because patronage is too low.
And patronage will continue to be low as long as the routes
continue to be so indirect.
How would the bus company know what your destination is so they can
plan a direct route?
They don't know _my_ destination, but they surely would have data on
which were the most popular destinations.
I still don't understand how a bus route can be set up to provide
direct routes to any destination.
Let's say you live in the Happy Homes district and that you want to
take a bus to the University campus. A bus route from Happy Homes to
the University would have to follow a circuitous route to serve the
public.
Huh?

One of the most used routes in Denver is the Colfax bus. I used to be a
single route running mot of the length of Colfax (a 26 mile long street
claimed to be the longest street in the US), but is now two routes, the
15 and 16. There is no circuitous route, it runs the length of a single
street, either from downtown east of from downtown west.

Since Colfax is also US-40 for most its length, there are many there's a
lot on Colfax or near to Colfax.

There are many people that ride that bus directly to their destination.
--
Keep Virginia clean...throw your trash into Maryland.
Tony Cooper
2020-09-28 19:03:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 16:49:56 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 00:05:43 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:24:31 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This
could be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes,
but the bus company won't do that because patronage is too low.
And patronage will continue to be low as long as the routes
continue to be so indirect.
How would the bus company know what your destination is so they can
plan a direct route?
They don't know _my_ destination, but they surely would have data on
which were the most popular destinations.
I still don't understand how a bus route can be set up to provide
direct routes to any destination.
Let's say you live in the Happy Homes district and that you want to
take a bus to the University campus. A bus route from Happy Homes to
the University would have to follow a circuitous route to serve the
public.
Huh?
One of the most used routes in Denver is the Colfax bus. I used to be a
single route running mot of the length of Colfax (a 26 mile long street
claimed to be the longest street in the US), but is now two routes, the
15 and 16. There is no circuitous route, it runs the length of a single
street, either from downtown east of from downtown west.
Since Colfax is also US-40 for most its length, there are many there's a
lot on Colfax or near to Colfax.
There are many people that ride that bus directly to their destination.
Yes, I understand that some routes are direct along one road.

However, for this to apply to what I'm asking, the Happy Homes
district would have to be adjacent to that road.

That's not the way most larger cities are laid out. The residential
districts (neighborhoods) are not alway adjacent to major roads that
have bus route stops.

Those people you are referring to would have to get to Colfax to use
that direct route. If those people live in a neighborhood several
miles off Colfax, it's only a direct route once they get to Colfax.

Then, if the destination is several miles off Colfax, the bus riders
have to get to the destination after the bus ride.

That's not a direct route from starting point to destination. It's
just a direct route for the bus part of the journey. The circuitious
part is getting to Colfax, and getting to the destination from Colfax,
which would have to be made by using a different bus, by shank's mare,
or by vehicle.
Peter T. Daniels
2020-09-28 21:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 16:49:56 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 00:05:43 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:24:31 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This
could be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes,
but the bus company won't do that because patronage is too low.
And patronage will continue to be low as long as the routes
continue to be so indirect.
How would the bus company know what your destination is so they can
plan a direct route?
They don't know _my_ destination, but they surely would have data on
which were the most popular destinations.
I still don't understand how a bus route can be set up to provide
direct routes to any destination.
Let's say you live in the Happy Homes district and that you want to
take a bus to the University campus. A bus route from Happy Homes to
the University would have to follow a circuitous route to serve the
public.
Huh?
One of the most used routes in Denver is the Colfax bus. I used to be a
single route running mot of the length of Colfax (a 26 mile long street
claimed to be the longest street in the US), but is now two routes, the
15 and 16. There is no circuitous route, it runs the length of a single
street, either from downtown east of from downtown west.
Since Colfax is also US-40 for most its length, there are many there's a
lot on Colfax or near to Colfax.
There are many people that ride that bus directly to their destination.
Yes, I understand that some routes are direct along one road.
However, for this to apply to what I'm asking, the Happy Homes
district would have to be adjacent to that road.
That's not the way most larger cities are laid out.
There he goes again. Making bizarre claims about "most larger cities."
Post by Tony Cooper
The residential
districts (neighborhoods) are not alway adjacent to major roads that
have bus route stops.
"Not alway"? Yes, "not alway." But _usually._
Post by Tony Cooper
Those people you are referring to would have to get to Colfax to use
that direct route. If those people live in a neighborhood several
miles off Colfax, it's only a direct route once they get to Colfax.
Then, if the destination is several miles off Colfax, the bus riders
have to get to the destination after the bus ride.
That's not a direct route from starting point to destination. It's
just a direct route for the bus part of the journey. The circuitious
part is getting to Colfax, and getting to the destination from Colfax,
which would have to be made by using a different bus, by shank's mare,
or by vehicle.
I've never been to Denver, just seen it from the air when about to
change planes there, and it appeared to have an extremely regular
rectangular grid like most of the cities that were not either founded
in the 18th century (or before) or on mountains. (Even San Francisco
imposed a rectangular grid on some pretty spectacular mountains.)
Lewis
2020-09-29 02:09:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
Yes, I understand that some routes are direct along one road.
However, for this to apply to what I'm asking, the Happy Homes
district would have to be adjacent to that road.
That's not the way most larger cities are laid out. The residential
districts (neighborhoods) are not alway adjacent to major roads that
have bus route stops.
Those people you are referring to would have to get to Colfax to use
that direct route. If those people live in a neighborhood several
miles off Colfax, it's only a direct route once they get to Colfax.
But there are many many people who live within a mile of Colfax and who
are going to destinations with a mile of Colfax. That is walking
distance even in the lazy US.

Most of the bus routes in Denver are generally straight lines following
a single road, sometimes with a diversion to dip into downtown or to a
transit hub (a PnR and or train station).

For a lot of commuters (really what the transit system is built for an
around) a single bus or at most two buses (or a bus/train combo) is all
that is needed, especially if they work in the central core.

Out in the 'burbs is a different story, but even there, it's generally a
matter of two transfers instead of zero or one.

For example, a friend of mine is starting a new job in three weeks and
will have to take a bus some miles east of his home, then a second bus
some miles south, and another bus some miles west. Total time during
commute hours is 62, 65, or 79 minutes. Driving would take him 14
minutes. There is no direct bicycle-friendly route between his work and
his new job due to suburban planing, limited access freeways, and a
general disregard for cyclists in suburban USA.

He is considering getting his license again, which he let expire about a
decade ago, and getting a car.
--
Strange things are afoot at the Circle K
Tony Cooper
2020-09-29 04:34:22 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 02:09:39 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Yes, I understand that some routes are direct along one road.
However, for this to apply to what I'm asking, the Happy Homes
district would have to be adjacent to that road.
That's not the way most larger cities are laid out. The residential
districts (neighborhoods) are not alway adjacent to major roads that
have bus route stops.
Those people you are referring to would have to get to Colfax to use
that direct route. If those people live in a neighborhood several
miles off Colfax, it's only a direct route once they get to Colfax.
But there are many many people who live within a mile of Colfax and who
are going to destinations with a mile of Colfax. That is walking
distance even in the lazy US.
Yes, I understand that. So those people have a direct route if their
destination is also within a short walking distance of Colfax.

Still, all the potential bus riders in Denver are not in that
situation. The issue, though, is about the bus company not providing
direct routes for all potential bus riders. I don't see how that can
be done.
Lewis
2020-09-29 05:45:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 02:09:39 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Yes, I understand that some routes are direct along one road.
However, for this to apply to what I'm asking, the Happy Homes
district would have to be adjacent to that road.
That's not the way most larger cities are laid out. The residential
districts (neighborhoods) are not alway adjacent to major roads that
have bus route stops.
Those people you are referring to would have to get to Colfax to use
that direct route. If those people live in a neighborhood several
miles off Colfax, it's only a direct route once they get to Colfax.
But there are many many people who live within a mile of Colfax and who
are going to destinations with a mile of Colfax. That is walking
distance even in the lazy US.
Yes, I understand that. So those people have a direct route if their
destination is also within a short walking distance of Colfax.
Still, all the potential bus riders in Denver are not in that
situation. The issue, though, is about the bus company not providing
direct routes for all potential bus riders. I don't see how that can
be done.
I don't think that was the point at all. It was by proving service from
a sub-division or neighborhood to a high-density area, and the is mostly
what bus routes are designed around doing, getting as many people to
high density destinations as efficiently as possible.
--
"Hain't we got all the fools in town on our side? And hain't that a
big enough majority in any town?" - Huckleberry Finn
Tony Cooper
2020-09-29 14:28:10 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 05:45:37 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 02:09:39 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Yes, I understand that some routes are direct along one road.
However, for this to apply to what I'm asking, the Happy Homes
district would have to be adjacent to that road.
That's not the way most larger cities are laid out. The residential
districts (neighborhoods) are not alway adjacent to major roads that
have bus route stops.
Those people you are referring to would have to get to Colfax to use
that direct route. If those people live in a neighborhood several
miles off Colfax, it's only a direct route once they get to Colfax.
But there are many many people who live within a mile of Colfax and who
are going to destinations with a mile of Colfax. That is walking
distance even in the lazy US.
Yes, I understand that. So those people have a direct route if their
destination is also within a short walking distance of Colfax.
Still, all the potential bus riders in Denver are not in that
situation. The issue, though, is about the bus company not providing
direct routes for all potential bus riders. I don't see how that can
be done.
I don't think that was the point at all. It was by proving service from
a sub-division or neighborhood to a high-density area, and the is mostly
what bus routes are designed around doing, getting as many people to
high density destinations as efficiently as possible.
To see if that is the point or not, please refer to Peter Moylan's
comment to which I replied stating that I think providing direct
routes would be a very difficult thing to do. Peter wrote:

"The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This could
be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes, but the
bus company won't do that because patronage is too low. And patronage
will continue to be low as long as the routes continue to be so
indirect."
Sam Plusnet
2020-09-29 20:41:47 UTC
Permalink
On 29-Sep-20 15:28, Tony Cooper wrote: (actually quoting Peter Moylan)
Post by Tony Cooper
"The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This could
be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes, but the
bus company won't do that because patronage is too low. And patronage
will continue to be low as long as the routes continue to be so
indirect."
There is a parallel problem of "The Last Bus".

If the last bus home from town is (say) at 23:30, many people will
finish up their evening in town in time to catch the penultimate bus.
After all, if they happen to miss that one there is always the Last Bus
as a fall-back.

The Bus Company looks at ticket sales for that Last Bus and decide,
since it is poorly utilised, to cancel it.
Thus the penultimate bus becomes the Last Bus - and people curtail their
evening still earlier so they can catch the (now) penultimate bus...
--
Sam Plusnet
b***@shaw.ca
2020-09-29 21:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
On 29-Sep-20 15:28, Tony Cooper wrote: (actually quoting Peter Moylan)
Post by Tony Cooper
"The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This could
be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes, but the
bus company won't do that because patronage is too low. And patronage
will continue to be low as long as the routes continue to be so
indirect."
There is a parallel problem of "The Last Bus".
If the last bus home from town is (say) at 23:30, many people will
finish up their evening in town in time to catch the penultimate bus.
After all, if they happen to miss that one there is always the Last Bus
as a fall-back.
The Bus Company looks at ticket sales for that Last Bus and decide,
since it is poorly utilised, to cancel it.
Thus the penultimate bus becomes the Last Bus - and people curtail their
evening still earlier so they can catch the (now) penultimate bus...
Is that based on the practices of a known bus company? Here in Vancouver,
the regional transit authority runs buses all night, every 20 to 30
minutes, between the downtown hub and 10 major suburban population
centres. Not coincidentally, it was named the best major transit
system in North America last year.

bill
Cheryl
2020-09-29 21:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Sam Plusnet
On 29-Sep-20 15:28, Tony Cooper wrote: (actually quoting Peter Moylan)
Post by Tony Cooper
"The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This could
be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes, but the
bus company won't do that because patronage is too low. And patronage
will continue to be low as long as the routes continue to be so
indirect."
There is a parallel problem of "The Last Bus".
If the last bus home from town is (say) at 23:30, many people will
finish up their evening in town in time to catch the penultimate bus.
After all, if they happen to miss that one there is always the Last Bus
as a fall-back.
The Bus Company looks at ticket sales for that Last Bus and decide,
since it is poorly utilised, to cancel it.
Thus the penultimate bus becomes the Last Bus - and people curtail their
evening still earlier so they can catch the (now) penultimate bus...
Is that based on the practices of a known bus company? Here in Vancouver,
the regional transit authority runs buses all night, every 20 to 30
minutes, between the downtown hub and 10 major suburban population
centres. Not coincidentally, it was named the best major transit
system in North America last year.
Not surprisingly, ours is not the best transit system in North America.
I would not like to guess what it's rating is, although really, I
generally find it quite usable. At least, it is if you've made sure you
live in an area it serves.

Buses start running infrequently in evenings after about 6 PM and only
the main routes run as late as, say, 11 PM. I've been caught out more
than once by assuming that Sunday evening follows much the same pattern
as other evenings, but buses (at least the ones I take) simply don't run
at all Sunday evenings.

The management is open to trying out new routes, and if there's
ridership enough, keeping them on, but it's a subsidized system, and
there's little enthusiasm for using the subsidy to operate empty buses.
Like everyone else they must surely have run into debt operating nearly
empty buses during the worst of the COVID business, when they could only
allow very few on, and officially didn't accept anyone who wasn't on
essential business. And now a strike. It was snowing during part of the
last strike, in 2010, and it lasted months. Fortunately, I live near
just about anywhere I want to go and it isn't snowing yet.
--
Cheryl
Sam Plusnet
2020-09-30 01:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Sam Plusnet
On 29-Sep-20 15:28, Tony Cooper wrote: (actually quoting Peter Moylan)
Post by Tony Cooper
"The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This could
be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes, but the
bus company won't do that because patronage is too low. And patronage
will continue to be low as long as the routes continue to be so
indirect."
There is a parallel problem of "The Last Bus".
If the last bus home from town is (say) at 23:30, many people will
finish up their evening in town in time to catch the penultimate bus.
After all, if they happen to miss that one there is always the Last Bus
as a fall-back.
The Bus Company looks at ticket sales for that Last Bus and decide,
since it is poorly utilised, to cancel it.
Thus the penultimate bus becomes the Last Bus - and people curtail their
evening still earlier so they can catch the (now) penultimate bus...
Is that based on the practices of a known bus company? Here in Vancouver,
the regional transit authority runs buses all night, every 20 to 30
minutes, between the downtown hub and 10 major suburban population
centres. Not coincidentally, it was named the best major transit
system in North America last year.
Here in the UK, bus companies sometimes have to jump through hoops in
order to cancel a bus, but low passenger numbers over the long term
makes a good case.
It's not helped by the fact that 'The Last Bus' often attracts more than
its fair share of troublesome drunks, and that adds ammunition to the
argument.
--
Sam Plusnet
b***@shaw.ca
2020-09-30 03:22:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Sam Plusnet
On 29-Sep-20 15:28, Tony Cooper wrote: (actually quoting Peter Moylan)
Post by Tony Cooper
"The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This could
be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes, but the
bus company won't do that because patronage is too low. And patronage
will continue to be low as long as the routes continue to be so
indirect."
There is a parallel problem of "The Last Bus".
If the last bus home from town is (say) at 23:30, many people will
finish up their evening in town in time to catch the penultimate bus.
After all, if they happen to miss that one there is always the Last Bus
as a fall-back.
The Bus Company looks at ticket sales for that Last Bus and decide,
since it is poorly utilised, to cancel it.
Thus the penultimate bus becomes the Last Bus - and people curtail their
evening still earlier so they can catch the (now) penultimate bus...
Is that based on the practices of a known bus company? Here in Vancouver,
the regional transit authority runs buses all night, every 20 to 30
minutes, between the downtown hub and 10 major suburban population
centres. Not coincidentally, it was named the best major transit
system in North America last year.
Here in the UK, bus companies sometimes have to jump through hoops in
order to cancel a bus, but low passenger numbers over the long term
makes a good case.
Vancouver's TransLink is publicly owned, and operated by managers
who are overseen by a board of elected politicians and appointed
transit specialists. I used to cover its board meetings for the
largest local daily. Because of the public/government connections,
it holds public hearings and open houses when it is planning route
cancellations or expansions. The result is that its operations and
plans are fairly transparent, and while everybody carps about
transit, it's my sense that the noise level here is a little lower
than in most places.
Post by Sam Plusnet
It's not helped by the fact that 'The Last Bus' often attracts more than
its fair share of troublesome drunks, and that adds ammunition to the
argument.
Troublesome drunks happen here too, after the bars and restaurants
close. I think the police have extra people on for those times,
but I haven't been out and about to see what happens when the bars
close for many years.

bill
Lewis
2020-09-30 06:58:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Here in the UK, bus companies sometimes have to jump through hoops in
order to cancel a bus, but low passenger numbers over the long term
makes a good case.
Canceling a bus ROUTE is difficult. Adjusting the schedule they just do.
Taking out a late bus would just be a schedule adjustment.

Somewhere people got it into their heads that things like transit are
supposed to make money instead of being a service. There are people who
cannot drive for a variety of reasons, and people who rely on transit
systems to get to doctors, grocery stores, and work. Eliminated service
because of low numbers simply makes everything work significantly worse.
Post by Sam Plusnet
It's not helped by the fact that 'The Last Bus' often attracts more than
its fair share of troublesome drunks, and that adds ammunition to the
argument.
Yep, because what we really want is them driving themselves home.
--
Are you allowed to impeach a president for gross incompetence?
---Donald J Trump
Lewis
2020-09-30 06:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Sam Plusnet
On 29-Sep-20 15:28, Tony Cooper wrote: (actually quoting Peter Moylan)
Post by Tony Cooper
"The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This could
be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes, but the
bus company won't do that because patronage is too low. And patronage
will continue to be low as long as the routes continue to be so
indirect."
There is a parallel problem of "The Last Bus".
If the last bus home from town is (say) at 23:30, many people will
finish up their evening in town in time to catch the penultimate bus.
After all, if they happen to miss that one there is always the Last Bus
as a fall-back.
The Bus Company looks at ticket sales for that Last Bus and decide,
since it is poorly utilised, to cancel it.
Thus the penultimate bus becomes the Last Bus - and people curtail their
evening still earlier so they can catch the (now) penultimate bus...
Is that based on the practices of a known bus company? Here in Vancouver,
the regional transit authority runs buses all night, every 20 to 30
minutes, between the downtown hub and 10 major suburban population
centres. Not coincidentally, it was named the best major transit
system in North America last year.
To be fair, "best major transit system in North America" is a low bar as
you are competing with a bunch of American Cities, mostly.

Many Americans have *never* ridden public transit and consider it
something only violent felons and or poor people do.

When a friend of mine and his wife traveled to New York City that was
the first time his wife had ever ridden on public transit, and she was
over 40., She was also terrified of the prospect and tried to insist
that they only take taxis. She was positive they were both going to be
murdered the instant they got on a bus. She flat out refused to ride the
subway.

I think you'll find that is pretty common in the US, with many people
either never having ridden public transit or only having very limited and
specific experiences with it that they might not have even realised were
public transit.

As an example, the bus company here runs (or ran, I assume they still
do) a special Sunday service called "Bronco Ride" which ran on Sundays
from various locations around the city with large parking lots to the
NFL Stadium, and then back. It's a special service that only runs on 8
Sundays a year unless the team makes the playoffs and does well enough
to play those games at home.

I one had an argument with a friend who claimed, proudly, that he had
never taken public transit. I pointed out that I had ridden the Bronco
Ride with him and that it was public transit, but he claimed it wasn't
"really" public transit and that it was more like a charter. His main
point, which was accurate, was that prepaid bus passes could not be used
for the Bronco Ride,
--
Slab: Jus' say 'AarrghaarrghpleeassennononoUGH'. --Feet of Clay
Mark Brader
2020-09-29 22:23:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
There is a parallel problem of "The Last Bus".
If the last bus home from town is (say) at 23:30, many people will
finish up their evening in town in time to catch the penultimate bus.
After all, if they happen to miss that one there is always the Last Bus
as a fall-back.
The Bus Company looks at ticket sales for that Last Bus and decide,
since it is poorly utilised, to cancel it.
Thus the penultimate bus becomes the Last Bus - and people curtail their
evening still earlier so they can catch the (now) penultimate bus...
Much the same problem applies to stores with extended opening hours.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "Suspicion breeds confidence."
***@vex.net -- BRAZIL
Lewis
2020-09-30 06:40:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 05:45:37 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 02:09:39 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Tony Cooper
Yes, I understand that some routes are direct along one road.
However, for this to apply to what I'm asking, the Happy Homes
district would have to be adjacent to that road.
That's not the way most larger cities are laid out. The residential
districts (neighborhoods) are not alway adjacent to major roads that
have bus route stops.
Those people you are referring to would have to get to Colfax to use
that direct route. If those people live in a neighborhood several
miles off Colfax, it's only a direct route once they get to Colfax.
But there are many many people who live within a mile of Colfax and who
are going to destinations with a mile of Colfax. That is walking
distance even in the lazy US.
Yes, I understand that. So those people have a direct route if their
destination is also within a short walking distance of Colfax.
Still, all the potential bus riders in Denver are not in that
situation. The issue, though, is about the bus company not providing
direct routes for all potential bus riders. I don't see how that can
be done.
I don't think that was the point at all. It was by proving service from
a sub-division or neighborhood to a high-density area, and the is mostly
what bus routes are designed around doing, getting as many people to
high density destinations as efficiently as possible.
To see if that is the point or not, please refer to Peter Moylan's
comment to which I replied stating that I think providing direct
"The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic
problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place
before finally heading towards where you really want to go. This could
be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more direct routes, but the
bus company won't do that because patronage is too low. And patronage
will continue to be low as long as the routes continue to be so
indirect."
And that is pretty much the opposite of how most bus routes around here
operate. Th majority run pretty much straight a long a grid line, In
fact, so much so that you can usually tell which gridline they run on
from the route number. Colfax is between 14th and 16th, and it is route
15 (and also now 16). The 21 runs pretty much down "Evans" which is 2100
south. The 0 runs down Broadway, which divides east from west addresses
and is the "0 hundred" street. The 40 runs down the street that is "4000
east" The 12 runs mostly down Downing, 1200 east. Mostly even routes are
NS and odd routes are EW, but only mostly.

The system was disrupted somewhat with the addition of the trains, but
it is still the case that most bus routes here are straight lines. Even
the ones that do not follow a strict N-S or E-W line will follow a
relatively straight line in their overall direction (usually toward the
center of the city).

"Meandering routes" is not how I would describe bus routes.
--
I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything as a
career. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed, or buy
anything sold or processed, or process anything sold, bought, or
processed, or repair anything sold, bought, or processed. You
know, as a career, I don't want to do that.
Peter Moylan
2020-09-29 02:50:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 00:05:43 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:24:31 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the
basic problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of
the place before finally heading towards where you really want
to go. This could be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more
direct routes, but the bus company won't do that because
patronage is too low. And patronage will continue to be low as
long as the routes continue to be so indirect.
How would the bus company know what your destination is so they
can plan a direct route?
They don't know _my_ destination, but they surely would have data
on which were the most popular destinations.
I still don't understand how a bus route can be set up to provide
direct routes to any destination.
Let's say you live in the Happy Homes district and that you want to
take a bus to the University campus. A bus route from Happy Homes
to the University would have to follow a circuitous route to serve
the public.
There would be several bus stops in the Happy Homes district, and
several bus stops in other districts between Happy Homes and the
University unless Happy Homes was an enclave of University employees
and students, and there were enough University employees and
students in the Happy Homes district to make that direct run cost
effective for the bus company.
However, I'm assuming that University employees and students live in
several districts and are not all bunched together in Happy Homes.
The bus company could set up routes that terminate at the
University, but I can't imagine how they could set up direct routes
from single origination points.
A reasonably direct route can still have stops along the way. You might
be thinking of an express route.

And "reasonably direct" still allows for a bit of divergence from a
straight line.

The routes that bother me are when the bus is headed south even though
its final destination is in the north.
--
Peter Moylan Newcastle, NSW
Cheryl
2020-09-29 19:43:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 00:05:43 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:24:31 +1000, Peter Moylan
Post by Peter Moylan
The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the
basic problem remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of
the place before finally heading towards where you really want
to go. This could be fixed by adding more buses, allowing more
direct routes, but the bus company won't do that because
patronage is too low. And patronage will continue to be low as
long as the routes continue to be so indirect.
How would the bus company know what your destination is so they
can plan a direct route?
They don't know _my_ destination, but they surely would have data
on which were the most popular destinations.
I still don't understand how a bus route can be set up to provide
direct routes to any destination.
Let's say you live in the Happy Homes district and that you want to
take a bus to the University campus.  A bus route from Happy Homes
to the University would have to follow a circuitous route to serve
the public.
There would be several bus stops in the Happy Homes district, and
several bus stops in other districts between Happy Homes and the
University unless Happy Homes was an enclave of University employees
and students, and there were enough University employees and
students in the Happy Homes district to make that direct run cost
effective for the bus company.
However, I'm assuming that University employees and students live in
several districts and are not all bunched together in Happy Homes.
The bus company could set up routes that terminate at the
University, but I can't imagine how they could set up direct routes
from single origination points.
A reasonably direct route can still have stops along the way. You might
be thinking of an express route.
And "reasonably direct" still allows for a bit of divergence from a
straight line.
The routes that bother me are when the bus is headed south even though
its final destination is in the north.
You'd love the route I take frequently - on the map, it's route looks
like the letter U, as it travels from one shopping centre to another.
It's not nearly as long as some mentioned here, this being a small city,
but it heads east for about 7 km and then west for another 10. I
actually find it quite useful for travelling on small sections of its
route, but many an unwary new traveller has had to be warned by the
driver that yes, you can get to the Village Mall on this bus, but you'd
be better off taking another bus if you want to get there any time soon.

Under normal circumstances, there's also a bus that covers half the
route on evenings and weekends - this bus runs once an hour, but on the
half hour another bus covers the first part of the route.

These are, of course, not normal circumstances. We're on the second or
third modified schedule (because of COVID) and the drivers are planning
a strike in a week.
--
Cheryl
Ken Blake
2020-09-28 15:28:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Young
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Where "long-distance" is a distance relative to the UK. There are
certainly intracity coaches in the UK that over her would be part
of the normal bus routes and don't involve what we would think of
as "long- distance buses'.
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from
start to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Even our local bus route takes an hour from start to end, and that
is nothing like a long distance route nor a long-distance coach.
It's around 15 miles as the crow flies, but the route is a fair bit
longer as it meanders around to serve the whole area.
The meandering can make a huge difference. Years ago, it occurred to me
that it might be more socially responsible for me to take a bus to work
rather than driving. After checking the timetables, it turned out that
that would turn my 15-minute drive into a bus trip of well over two
hours, with a change of buses in the middle. I had to give up the plan.
The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic problem
remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place before finally
heading towards where you really want to go.
At least in the USA, that's true of some bus routes, but not all. For
example, in NYC there's a bus route that goes straight down Fifth Avenue.

The main thing that makes a bus take longer than a car is that it makes
many stops and some of those stops are fairly lengthy to permit many
passengers to get off and on.
Post by Peter Moylan
This could be fixed by
adding more buses, allowing more direct routes, but the bus company
won't do that because patronage is too low. And patronage will continue
to be low as long as the routes continue to be so indirect.
--
Ken
Peter T. Daniels
2020-09-28 21:15:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Young
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Where "long-distance" is a distance relative to the UK. There are
certainly intracity coaches in the UK that over her would be part
of the normal bus routes and don't involve what we would think of
as "long- distance buses'.
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from
start to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Even our local bus route takes an hour from start to end, and that
is nothing like a long distance route nor a long-distance coach.
It's around 15 miles as the crow flies, but the route is a fair bit
longer as it meanders around to serve the whole area.
The meandering can make a huge difference. Years ago, it occurred to me
that it might be more socially responsible for me to take a bus to work
rather than driving. After checking the timetables, it turned out that
that would turn my 15-minute drive into a bus trip of well over two
hours, with a change of buses in the middle. I had to give up the plan.
The local bus system has changed a lot since then, but the basic problem
remains: when you take a bus, it wanders all of the place before finally
heading towards where you really want to go.
At least in the USA, that's true of some bus routes, but not all. For
example, in NYC there's a bus route that goes straight down Fifth Avenue.
What an inexhaustible fount of misinformation this fellow is.

There is a multitude of bus lines on Fifth Avenue; there is at least
one bus line on every Avenue (except Park and West End) in Manhattan.
Post by Ken Blake
The main thing that makes a bus take longer than a car is that it makes
many stops and some of those stops are fairly lengthy to permit many
passengers to get off and on.
Post by Peter Moylan
This could be fixed by
adding more buses, allowing more direct routes, but the bus company
won't do that because patronage is too low. And patronage will continue
to be low as long as the routes continue to be so indirect.
Joy Beeson
2020-09-29 05:19:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Blake
The main thing that makes a bus take longer than a car is that it makes
many stops and some of those stops are fairly lengthy to permit many
passengers to get off and on.
Once I got trapped behind a bus when I was riding a bicycle through
Albany, New York. Busses are so long that it isn't safe to overtake
one unless you see a *really* long line of passengers waiting to
board, and if you do manage to overtake, you have to beat it to the
next bus stop, 'cuz he doesn't have a bit of trouble overtaking a
short and narrow vehicle that doesn't block his view.

But if you do make it to the next stop before the bus starts moving,
you'll be in the next town before it's gone a mile.
--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at centurylink dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
Sam Plusnet
2020-09-28 18:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
The meandering can make a huge difference. Years ago, it occurred to me
that it might be more socially responsible for me to take a bus to work
rather than driving. After checking the timetables, it turned out that
that would turn my 15-minute drive into a bus trip of well over two
hours, with a change of buses in the middle. I had to give up the plan.
I wanted to do much the same - especially once I turned 60, and could
have travelled for free (much like a New Jersey bus pass).
Sometimes the 20 minute drive would have taken two hours, but on other
occasions I would have had to leave home the previous night in order to
get to work in the morning.
--
Sam Plusnet
Peter T. Daniels
2020-09-28 21:18:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
The meandering can make a huge difference. Years ago, it occurred to me
that it might be more socially responsible for me to take a bus to work
rather than driving. After checking the timetables, it turned out that
that would turn my 15-minute drive into a bus trip of well over two
hours, with a change of buses in the middle. I had to give up the plan.
I wanted to do much the same - especially once I turned 60, and could
have travelled for free (much like a New Jersey bus pass).
There is no such thing.

Any person 62 or over pays a reduced fare on NJTransit (bus or rail or
light rail), and there is no identification card associated with it.
Post by Sam Plusnet
Sometimes the 20 minute drive would have taken two hours, but on other
occasions I would have had to leave home the previous night in order to
get to work in the morning.
Tony Cooper
2020-09-29 00:26:04 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:18:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
The meandering can make a huge difference. Years ago, it occurred to me
that it might be more socially responsible for me to take a bus to work
rather than driving. After checking the timetables, it turned out that
that would turn my 15-minute drive into a bus trip of well over two
hours, with a change of buses in the middle. I had to give up the plan.
I wanted to do much the same - especially once I turned 60, and could
have travelled for free (much like a New Jersey bus pass).
There is no such thing.
Of course not. It's a *Senior* bus pass.
Sam Plusnet
2020-09-29 01:34:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:18:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
I wanted to do much the same - especially once I turned 60, and could
have travelled for free (much like a New Jersey bus pass).
There is no such thing.
Of course not. It's a *Senior* bus pass.
Sorry. I will try and remember in future.
--
Sam Plusnet
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-09-29 06:41:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:18:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
I wanted to do much the same - especially once I turned 60, and could
have travelled for free (much like a New Jersey bus pass).
There is no such thing.
Of course not. It's a *Senior* bus pass.
Sorry. I will try and remember in future.
Don't worry. I think that everyone (with one possible exception) knew
what you meant.
--
athel
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-09-29 09:17:33 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 29 Sep 2020 06:41:58 GMT, Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:18:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
I wanted to do much the same - especially once I turned 60, and could
have travelled for free (much like a New Jersey bus pass).
There is no such thing.
Of course not. It's a *Senior* bus pass.
Sorry. I will try and remember in future.
Don't worry. I think that everyone (with one possible exception) knew
what you meant.
I'm sure Sam was having a playful moment there.

# Glad to be Gr[e/a]y
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Peter T. Daniels
2020-09-29 15:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:18:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
I wanted to do much the same - especially once I turned 60, and could
have travelled for free (much like a New Jersey bus pass).
There is no such thing.
Of course not. It's a *Senior* bus pass.
Sorry. I will try and remember in future.
Don't worry. I think that everyone (with one possible exception) knew
what you meant.
The trump of Marseille countenances lies.

Incidentally, factual accuracy can't be properly challenged if the
challenger is not aware that the liar is lying.
Peter T. Daniels
2020-09-29 14:26:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:18:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
I wanted to do much the same - especially once I turned 60, and could
have travelled for free (much like a New Jersey bus pass).
There is no such thing.
Of course not. It's a *Senior* bus pass.
Sorry. I will try and remember in future.
The way trumpers "remember" _his_ lies?
Peter T. Daniels
2020-09-29 14:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 14:18:57 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Peter Moylan
The meandering can make a huge difference. Years ago, it occurred to me
that it might be more socially responsible for me to take a bus to work
rather than driving. After checking the timetables, it turned out that
that would turn my 15-minute drive into a bus trip of well over two
hours, with a change of buses in the middle. I had to give up the plan.
I wanted to do much the same - especially once I turned 60, and could
have travelled for free (much like a New Jersey bus pass).
There is no such thing.
Of course not. It's a *Senior* bus pass.
There is no such thing.
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-09-28 08:49:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at
least one coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a
device that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol
has been consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/
starting the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of
coach is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes,
it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Where "long-distance" is a distance relative to the UK. There are
certainly intracity coaches in the UK that over her would be part of
the normal bus routes and don't involve what we would think of as
"long- distance buses'.
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from
start to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Even our local bus route takes an hour from start to end, and that is
nothing like a long distance route nor a long-distance coach.
It's around 15 miles as the crow flies, but the route is a fair bit
longer as it meanders around to serve the whole area.
The X24 has leatherette-type seating and usb (all caps?) charging
sockets, but no toilet(s?!)
It doesn't meander much; or do you mean another service?

Back PC I carried an old squashed plastic fruit juice bottle for any
emergency situation.




PC = Pre-Covid; but you'd already worked that out
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Sam Plusnet
2020-09-28 18:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from
start to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Even our local bus route takes an hour from start to end, and that is
nothing like a long distance route nor a long-distance coach.
It's around 15 miles as the crow flies, but the route is a fair bit
longer as it meanders around to serve the whole area.
The X24 has leatherette-type seating and usb (all caps?) charging
sockets, but no toilet(s?!)
It doesn't meander much; or do you mean another service?
If I were to drive from Blaenavon to Newport, I would probably do half
the mileage of the X24.

P.S. You forgot the free WiFi.
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-09-28 19:11:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from
start to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Even our local bus route takes an hour from start to end, and that is
nothing like a long distance route nor a long-distance coach.
It's around 15 miles as the crow flies, but the route is a fair bit
longer as it meanders around to serve the whole area.
The X24 has leatherette-type seating and usb (all caps?) charging
sockets, but no toilet(s?!)
It doesn't meander much; or do you mean another service?
If I were to drive from Blaenavon to Newport, I would probably do half
the mileage of the X24.
P.S. You forgot the free WiFi.
Doesn't make up for lack of toilet, IMO!

I checked with googoo, no, it's pretty direct. Time is a different
matter, as going through Sebastopol (esp at [c]rush-hour) adds a lot of
time. Plus stops.
But from Varteg to nr Blaenavon (& vv) the speed limit is 60mph, not the
40 down in the valley.
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Sam Plusnet
2020-09-29 02:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from
start to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Even our local bus route takes an hour from start to end, and that is
nothing like a long distance route nor a long-distance coach.
It's around 15 miles as the crow flies, but the route is a fair bit
longer as it meanders around to serve the whole area.
The X24 has leatherette-type seating and usb (all caps?) charging
sockets, but no toilet(s?!)
It doesn't meander much; or do you mean another service?
If I were to drive from Blaenavon to Newport, I would probably do half
the mileage of the X24.
P.S. You forgot the free WiFi.
Doesn't make up for lack of toilet, IMO!
I checked with googoo, no, it's pretty direct. Time is a different
matter, as going through Sebastopol (esp at [c]rush-hour) adds a lot of
time. Plus stops.
If possible, I always avoid travelling through places named after large
scale sieges involving Alfred Lord Tennyson.
I worry about the mindset of the inhabitants.
--
Sam Plusnet
Kerr-Mudd,John
2020-09-29 09:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from
start to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Even our local bus route takes an hour from start to end, and that is
nothing like a long distance route nor a long-distance coach.
It's around 15 miles as the crow flies, but the route is a fair bit
longer as it meanders around to serve the whole area.
The X24 has leatherette-type seating and usb (all caps?) charging
sockets, but no toilet(s?!)
It doesn't meander much; or do you mean another service?
If I were to drive from Blaenavon to Newport, I would probably do half
the mileage of the X24.
P.S. You forgot the free WiFi.
Doesn't make up for lack of toilet, IMO!
I checked with googoo, no, it's pretty direct. Time is a different
matter, as going through Sebastopol (esp at [c]rush-hour) adds a lot of
time. Plus stops.
If possible, I always avoid travelling through places named after large
scale sieges involving Alfred Lord Tennyson.
I worry about the mindset of the inhabitants.
It's Generally safe. Just keep moving Onward.
I imagine the current inhabitants weren't the ones involved in the
naming.

Just a thought; is Tennyson one of the CHLT "dynasty" of landowner fame?
Seems not. Different spelling for a start; PS out-of-date info:
http://torfaenmuseum.org.uk/thi/the-hanburys/
I think this is the present incumbent:
http://www.thepeerage.com/p57147.htm#i571470

Other Hanbury-Tenison's are available:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/writer/merlin-hanbury-tenison
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.
Sam Plusnet
2020-09-29 20:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Lewis
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from
start to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Even our local bus route takes an hour from start to end, and that
is
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
nothing like a long distance route nor a long-distance coach.
It's around 15 miles as the crow flies, but the route is a fair bit
longer as it meanders around to serve the whole area.
The X24 has leatherette-type seating and usb (all caps?) charging
sockets, but no toilet(s?!)
It doesn't meander much; or do you mean another service?
If I were to drive from Blaenavon to Newport, I would probably do
half
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Post by Sam Plusnet
the mileage of the X24.
P.S. You forgot the free WiFi.
Doesn't make up for lack of toilet, IMO!
I checked with googoo, no, it's pretty direct. Time is a different
matter, as going through Sebastopol (esp at [c]rush-hour) adds a lot
of
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
time. Plus stops.
If possible, I always avoid travelling through places named after large
scale sieges involving Alfred Lord Tennyson.
I worry about the mindset of the inhabitants.
It's Generally safe. Just keep moving Onward.
I imagine the current inhabitants weren't the ones involved in the
naming.
Just a thought; is Tennyson one of the CHLT "dynasty" of landowner fame?
http://torfaenmuseum.org.uk/thi/the-hanburys/
http://www.thepeerage.com/p57147.htm#i571470
https://www.spectator.co.uk/writer/merlin-hanbury-tenison
That family owned this house (amongst quite a lot of other things) until
the 1920s.
--
Sam Plusnet
RH Draney
2020-09-29 09:31:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I checked with googoo, no, it's pretty direct. Time is a different
matter, as going through Sebastopol (esp at [c]rush-hour) adds a lot of
time. Plus stops.
If possible, I always avoid travelling through places named after large
scale sieges involving Alfred Lord Tennyson.
Oh, Crimea river, why doncha?...r
Sam Plusnet
2020-09-29 20:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Sam Plusnet
Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
I checked with googoo, no, it's pretty direct. Time is a different
matter, as going through Sebastopol (esp at [c]rush-hour) adds a lot of
time. Plus stops.
If possible, I always avoid travelling through places named after
large scale sieges involving Alfred Lord Tennyson.
Oh, Crimea river, why doncha?...r
Sung by Al'ma Cogan?

(There is an Alma Place in [Welsh] Sabastopol.)
--
Sam Plusnet
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2020-09-28 06:10:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Where "long-distance" is a distance relative to the UK. There are
certainly intracity coaches in the UK that over her would be part of the
normal bus routes and don't involve what we would think of as "long-
distance buses'.
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from start
to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Birmingham bus routes 11C and 11A, which date from 1923, are Europe's
longest routes, at 43 km for a complete circuit in 2 hours and 20
minutes, but effectively infinite, because you are not limited to a
single circuit.
--
athel
Lewis
2020-09-28 11:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Lewis
Post by Peter Young
Post by b***@shaw.ca
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Some of each. In North American English, the principal meaning of coach
is the on-field manager of a sports team. In other Englishes, it's a bus.
Not quite. In BrE "coach" is a long-distance bus.
Where "long-distance" is a distance relative to the UK. There are
certainly intracity coaches in the UK that over her would be part of the
normal bus routes and don't involve what we would think of as "long-
distance buses'.
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from start
to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
Birmingham bus routes 11C and 11A, which date from 1923, are Europe's
longest routes, at 43 km for a complete circuit in 2 hours and 20
minutes, but effectively infinite, because you are not limited to a
single circuit.
So, a bit more than half as long as the one I mentioned, which is over
20 miles in one direction, over 60km for a round trip.

If you're hung up on 'circuit' then I don't know, as buses here pretty
much go from one point to another in a meandering route and then back on
the same exact route with maybe the slightest of variations for things
like one-way streets, and not in circles.

(And by here, I mean Denver, though my memories of the lines in the Bat
Area are similar that circular routes are either rares as hen's teeth or
nonexistent.


More details on local transit that you care about, most likely, follows.


There may well be some circular routes I am unaware of (I do not ride
the bus much and haven't for a long time. It takes me 12-14 minutes to
drive to "work" and it would take close to 6 times that to take a bus to
a train and walk. And at many times when I am going, taking a bus and
train wold be impossible or take multiple hours of waiting since buses
do not run 24 hours and neither do the trains).

Right now it is 5am, and the bus to the train is still running on its
once an hour schedule, so I would either walk 15 minutes to the nearest
bus, wait 22 minutes for it, then wait another 15 minutes for the train,
or I could walk 29 minute to a different train stop wait only 6 minutes
for that train, which takes longer to get where I am going. Total time
is either 63 minutes or 72 minutes. In either case I could drive there,
go in and reboot a recalcitrant machine, get a coffee to-go from the
coffee shop next door, and be back home in less time.

And let's not even mention that bus schedules, though printed, have as
little meaning as a politician's campaign promise. The major line nearest
my house is suppose to run every 15 minutes during busy times (basically
most of the morning and then late afternoon) and I have OFTEN waited
more than 30 minutes for a bus. And I do not, as I mentioned above, ride
the bus very often. The trains are better at keeping to a schedule, but
it hardly matters if you rely on the bus to get you to the trains. This
is why many people drive to the train (Park-n-Ride) if they are going
into the central part of the city and many other have someone else drive
and drop them off (Kiss-n-Ride).

All Park-n-Rides (PnR) can be used as Kiss-n-Rides (KnR), but no KnR
can be used as a PnR.
--
At night when the bars close down
Brandy walks through a silent town
And loves a man who's not around
j***@mdfs.net
2020-09-28 09:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lewis
There is one bus route in Denver that runs well over an hour from start
to end and covers in excess of 20 miles, for example.
The old Sheffield 'Outer Circle' number 2 and 59 bus routes were about
25 miles long and took over two hours. As a child I once went on the
whole route.

jgh
Lewis
2020-09-27 09:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
The from is fine, but I do not see it as required. I would probably use
it myself.
--
I got up one morning, couldn't find my socks, so I called
Information. She said, "Hello, Information." I said, "I can't
find my socks." She said, "They're behind the couch." And they
were! -- Steven Wright
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2020-09-27 16:17:19 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 27 Sep 2020 09:21:31 -0000 (UTC), Lewis
Post by Lewis
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
The from is fine, but I do not see it as required. I would probably use
it myself.
Ditto. In BrE.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Jerry Friedman
2020-09-27 13:21:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
I was temporarily misled by a news headline on the BBC website.
"Oxford United's coach stalled by alcohol spray"
Oxford United is a football club. The team has, of course, at least one
coach: "An instructor or trainer in sport".
Before I read the article I assumed that their coach had been
accidentally sprayed.
It turned out that the coach referrred to was the team bus: "A
comfortably equipped single-decker bus used for longer journeys".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
https://www.lexico.com/definition/coach
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Pondition. "Prevent something happening" also exists over there.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter T. Daniels
2020-09-27 14:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Snidely
Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-54310800
"It is thought some of the spray in the air was picked up by a device
that stops the coach driver starting the vehicle if alcohol has been
consumed." [loc cit]
I would have written "... that stop the coach driver /from/ starting
the vehicle ...."
Pondition, or just bibbeecee style?
Bog-standard, as they say, British style. Disconcerting.
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