Athlete

Post by Phil
"It has been announced that Luke Littler was Google's 'Athlete of the
Year' in their Year in Search results."
Whilst the definition of what constitutes a 'sport' seems to have
broadened in recent years, I don't think I've seen 'athlete' used to
describe a darts player before.

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

Post by Phil
Perhaps darts will soon be an Olympic event.

I'd like to watch that, especially if beer swilling is part of the
competition too, as in the UK. I hope counting does not go decimal
though. There is a certain ring to "one-hundred-and-eight..eey" which is
hard to replicate in SI units.

Phil

2024-12-10 20:48:51 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

Post by Phil
Perhaps darts will soon be an Olympic event.

You were perhaps thinking of this:

--
Phil B

occam

2024-12-11 09:15:55 UTC

Post by Phil

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

Post by Phil
Perhaps darts will soon be an Olympic event.

http://youtu.be/_r0fRPc4Swk

Yes, hilarious. Stereotypes can be cruel, but a necessary evil in the
language of communication.

Kerr-Mudd, John

2024-12-11 20:39:22 UTC

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 20:48:51 +0000

Post by Phil

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

Post by Phil
Perhaps darts will soon be an Olympic event.

http://youtu.be/_r0fRPc4Swk

Without looking I'm guessing that's Smith & Jones. (trivia fans: was it
'Alas' or 'NtNoCN? )

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Silvano

2024-12-10 21:20:49 UTC

Post by occam
I'd like to watch that, especially if beer swilling is part of the
competition too, as in the UK. I hope counting does not go decimal
though. There is a certain ring to "one-hundred-and-eight..eey" which is
hard to replicate in SI units.

Where do you see non-SI units or SI units in
"one-hundred-and-eight..eey"? It's just a number!

Sam Plusnet

2024-12-11 01:26:09 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

--
Sam Plusnet

Rich Ulrich

2024-12-11 06:12:18 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

The hand-eye coordination entailed in so many athletic
pursuits is more important for aiming darts than for aiming
arrows. Golf needs that, too, and it has a component of
strategy.

A few months ago, I heard "professional tennis players"
nominated as the most complete athletes. Tennis needs
the hand-eye coordination of aiming, body control at the
same time, and involves running (quickness and speed),
anticipation, and strategy. Plus, endurance.

Former Pitt athletic great Larry Fitzgerald offered that
opinion -- Fitzgerald recently retired from as an all-time
great wide receiverr (pass catcher) in the NFL. That WR
position, IMO, has many of the same requirements.
Quarterbacks and WRs are the best all-around athletes

The various positions in various team sports do seem
to make use of varying characteristics and talents, like,
being especially big and strong for football linemen.

--
Rich Ulrich

LionelEdwards

2024-12-11 14:06:18 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.

An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.

Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

Phil

2024-12-11 14:40:04 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

Well, yes, in the sense that actual arithmetic is required -- though
anyone who plays a lot of darts and has good aim probably has a mental
lookup table for all these. I'd rate snooker as far more mathematically
taxing.

For the occasional darts game that I'm involved in, getting down to
double sixteen is the start of a standard finish that goes sixteen,
eight, four, two, and then most of the game is seeing who can throw a
double one first. Sometimes I wonder why we don't just play 'first to
throw a double one'.

--
Phil B

LionelEdwards

2024-12-11 15:23:51 UTC

Post by Phil

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

If that were geometry I'd agree because every shot
(after the first) is different. But topspin, backspin
or (to slip into USE) left- and right- English mean
that instincts are what a snooker player relies on most?

Little mathematical in this except its inevitable
outcome:

Sam Plusnet

2024-12-11 19:42:51 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged', but
could do Darts maths in an instant.

--
Sam Plusnet

occam

2024-12-12 13:03:11 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged', but
could do Darts maths in an instant.

Most professional darts players remember - parrot fashion - certain
patterns and their sums. So 'treble sixteen, double-top' would be 88.
They know, without resolving to mental arithmetic, the sum. This is
particularly handy in end-games, when you have to finish with a double
score. In a different context, I would not trust them to give me the
correct change in a supermarket checkout.

Paul Wolff

2024-12-14 23:43:03 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged', but
could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

--
Paul W

Sam Plusnet

2024-12-15 01:11:05 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

I consider one a sub set of the other, so we're both correct.

--
Sam Plusnet

occam

2024-12-15 09:01:01 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

I consider one a sub set of the other, so we're both correct.

...or you are both wrong. If you accept the fact that they have simply
memorised these number-patterns and are just accessing 'look-up' tables
in their minds, then remembering tables is neither arithmetic nor maths.

Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary school?
'6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just memorising '54'.

Chris Elvidge

2024-12-15 11:48:39 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

I consider one a sub set of the other, so we're both correct.

...or you are both wrong. If you accept the fact that they have simply
memorised these number-patterns and are just accessing 'look-up' tables
in their minds, then remembering tables is neither arithmetic nor maths.
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary school?
'6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just memorising '54'.

Thought it was 42.

--
Chris Elvidge, England
THE GOOD HUMOR MAN CAN ONLY BE PUSHED SO FAR

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-12-15 12:44:03 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

I consider one a sub set of the other, so we're both correct.

...or you are both wrong. If you accept the fact that they have simply
memorised these number-patterns and are just accessing 'look-up' tables
in their minds, then remembering tables is neither arithmetic nor maths.
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary school?
'6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just memorising '54'.

Thought it was 42.

No, that's just the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the
Universe, and Everything.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Chris Elvidge

2024-12-15 15:06:43 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

I consider one a sub set of the other, so we're both correct.

...or you are both wrong. If you accept the fact that they have simply
memorised these number-patterns and are just accessing 'look-up' tables
in their minds, then remembering tables is neither arithmetic nor maths.
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary school?
'6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just memorising '54'.

Thought it was 42.

No, that's just the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the
Universe, and Everything.

And the Ultimate Question was? (according to Arthur Dent)

--
Chris Elvidge, England
MUD IS NOT ONE OF THE 4 FOOD GROUPS

occam

2024-12-15 13:46:52 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

I consider one a sub set of the other, so we're both correct.

...or you are both wrong. If you accept the fact that they have simply
memorised these number-patterns and are just accessing 'look-up' tables
in their minds, then remembering tables is neither arithmetic nor maths.
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary school?
'6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just memorising '54'.

Thought it was 42.

Chris, you must be a pure mathematician - devoid of any arithmetic.
<hats off>

Chris Elvidge

2024-12-15 15:12:51 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

I consider one a sub set of the other, so we're both correct.

...or you are both wrong. If you accept the fact that they have simply
memorised these number-patterns and are just accessing 'look-up' tables
in their minds, then remembering tables is neither arithmetic nor maths.
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary school?
'6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just memorising '54'.

Thought it was 42.

Chris, you must be a pure mathematician - devoid of any arithmetic.
<hats off>

base 13? Adams said he did not make jokes in base 13.

--
Chris Elvidge, England
MUD IS NOT ONE OF THE 4 FOOD GROUPS

Peter Moylan

2024-12-15 22:36:01 UTC

Post by occam
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary school?
'6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just memorising '54'.

Thought it was 42.

Chris, you must be a pure mathematician - devoid of any arithmetic.
<hats off>

base 13? Adams said he did not make jokes in base 13.

That leaves us with two possibilities. Either it was a more subtle joke
that we haven't yet understood, or Adams himself got the arithmetic
wrong. I'm inclined to believe the latter.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Peter Moylan

2024-12-15 22:30:27 UTC

Post by occam
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary school?
'6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just memorising '54'.

Thought it was 42.

Yes. That was one of the unexpected surprises in THHGTTU.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Mike Spencer

2024-12-15 22:24:47 UTC

Post by occam
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary school?
'6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just memorising '54'.

I was always weak on memorizing lists of heterogeneous stuff.

For me it was 6 x 10, take away 6. (Seventy years on, I do actualy
remember '54' without mental manipulation.)

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Peter Moylan

2024-12-15 22:47:36 UTC

Post by occam
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary
school? '6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just
memorising '54'.

I was always weak on memorizing lists of heterogeneous stuff.
For me it was 6 x 10, take away 6. (Seventy years on, I do actualy
remember '54' without mental manipulation.)

You're an exception, though. Pretty much all of what is taught about
arithmetic in primary school (addition, multiplication, etc.) is based
on rote memorisation. To that extent, it's not really arithmetic.

There is a topic called "number theory" or "the higher arithmetic" that
is taken seriously by real mathematicians. I would rate that as the most
difficult topic in mathematics that I studied as an undergraduate. Much
more difficult than, say, tensors.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Kerr-Mudd, John

2024-12-16 19:18:22 UTC

On Mon, 16 Dec 2024 09:47:36 +1100

Post by occam
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary
school? '6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just
memorising '54'.

I was always weak on memorizing lists of heterogeneous stuff.
For me it was 6 x 10, take away 6. (Seventy years on, I do actualy
remember '54' without mental manipulation.)

You're an exception, though. Pretty much all of what is taught about
arithmetic in primary school (addition, multiplication, etc.) is based
on rote memorisation. To that extent, it's not really arithmetic.
There is a topic called "number theory" or "the higher arithmetic" that
is taken seriously by real mathematicians. I would rate that as the most
difficult topic in mathematics that I studied as an undergraduate. Much
more difficult than, say, tensors.

0U{0}=1?

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

lar3ryca

2024-12-16 03:21:22 UTC

Post by occam
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary school?
'6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just memorising '54'.

I was always weak on memorizing lists of heterogeneous stuff.
For me it was 6 x 10, take away 6. (Seventy years on, I do actualy
remember '54' without mental manipulation.)

For some reason, I always remember what 3x17 is.
Perhaps 43 or 4 times in my life, someone has asked something like
"What's 3*x17?", or "What's 17/3?", and I have given the answer right
away, and asked in return, "Have you forgotten your 17 times table?"

--
There was once an Empire, led by an Emperor.
There was once a Kingdom, led by a King.
Canada is a country...

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-12-16 07:59:48 UTC

Post by lar3ryca

Post by occam
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary school?
'6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just memorising '54'.

I was always weak on memorizing lists of heterogeneous stuff.
For me it was 6 x 10, take away 6. (Seventy years on, I do actualy
remember '54' without mental manipulation.)

For some reason, I always remember what 3x17 is.

Me too. And also 41 x 271, and 239 x 4649.

Post by lar3ryca
Perhaps 43 or 4 times in my life, someone has asked something like
"What's 3*x17?", or "What's 17/3?", and I have given the answer right
away, and asked in return, "Have you forgotten your 17 times table?"

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

occam

2024-12-16 10:33:00 UTC

Post by occam
Anyone remember using 12 x 12 multiplication tables in primary school?
'6 x 9' was never about adding 9+9+9+9+9+9. It was just memorising '54'.

I was always weak on memorizing lists of heterogeneous stuff.
For me it was 6 x 10, take away 6.

Sorry, I don't buy that. What about 7 x 8? Is that 7 x 10, take away 7
and then take away another 7? '56' memorised is so much easier.

(Seventy years on, I do actualy

Post by Mike Spencer
remember '54' without mental manipulation.)

J. J. Lodder

2024-12-15 09:29:02 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

I consider one a sub set of the other, so we're both correct.

In these parts arithmetic was what you learned in elementary school,
math in high school.
So if you can do it all with elementary school skills
it is arithmetic only, no math involved.

From what litle I know about the finer aspects of darts,
(and poker, and snooker) strategy is involved, so probability calculus,
which puts good playing of the game beyond mere arithmetic,

Jan

occam

2024-12-15 11:08:36 UTC

Post by J. J. Lodder
From what litle I know about the finer aspects of darts,
(and poker, and snooker) strategy is involved, so probability calculus,
which puts good playing of the game beyond mere arithmetic,

Putting aside poker and snooker for a moment, probability calculus
couldn't be further from the mind of darts players. They are 100% sure
that what what they are aiming at is achievable. That they get it wrong
occasionally has nothing to do with their assessment of probabilities,
just nerves, and beer. (Darts players are amongst the thickest 'sports'
people around.)

J. J. Lodder

2024-12-15 11:20:44 UTC

So you deny that strategy is involved in the game of Darts?
I don't think that professional players will agree with you,

Jan

occam

2024-12-15 13:57:25 UTC

So you deny that strategy is involved in the game of Darts?
I don't think that professional players will agree with you,

The only 'strategy' I have see in action is - having missed the previous
intended target e.g. scoring a twenty instead of the triple 20 - they
change tack, and aim for a sub-total that will ease their next three
throws. That is not strategy - it is a tactical move. 'Strategy'
implies a well thought out path, from beginning to end, which is not the
fastest path.

J. J. Lodder

2024-12-15 15:29:43 UTC

So you deny that strategy is involved in the game of Darts?
I don't think that professional players will agree with you,

Possibly. More than I want to know about it at for example
<https://www.dartbase.com/howtheprosdoit.htm>

The author certainly talks a lot about strategy,

Jan

occam

2024-12-15 15:48:49 UTC

So you deny that strategy is involved in the game of Darts?
I don't think that professional players will agree with you,

Possibly. More than I want to know about it at for example
<https://www.dartbase.com/howtheprosdoit.htm>
The author certainly talks a lot about strategy,

...because he does not know the difference between 'strategy' and
'tactics'. (Did you see any mention of 'tactic' in the article ?)

The closest he comes to defining strategy is: "Here's the trick, do the
math before you go to the line. " That is hardly a strategy, in my
book. Strategy makes sense in chess, not in a countdown match of darts.

Steve Hayes

2024-12-16 08:22:53 UTC

Post by occam
The only 'strategy' I have see in action is - having missed the previous
intended target e.g. scoring a twenty instead of the triple 20

ObAUG: Which is, by definition, a sin.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

occam

2024-12-16 09:57:22 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by occam
The only 'strategy' I have see in action is - having missed the previous
intended target e.g. scoring a twenty instead of the triple 20

ObAUG: Which is, by definition, a sin.

How so? (My understanding of the Bible is limited.)

Sam Plusnet

2024-12-15 20:34:59 UTC

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

I consider one a sub set of the other, so we're both correct.

In these parts arithmetic was what you learned in elementary school,
math in high school.
So if you can do it all with elementary school skills
it is arithmetic only, no math involved.

I am sorry to tell you that I consulted the ultimate authority (I did a
google search) and it agrees with me.

--
Sam Plusnet

Steve Hayes

2024-12-16 08:19:45 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
I consider one a sub set of the other, so we're both correct.

In these parts arithmetic was what you learned in elementary school,
math in high school.
So if you can do it all with elementary school skills
it is arithmetic only, no math involved.

In my schooling we did arithmetic for the first 7 years.

In the 8th year algebra and geometry were added, and in the 10th year
trigonometry.

At the end of the 12th year came the Matriculation (university
entrance) examination, where all four disciplines were part of
"Mathematics" (with an s). There were four 3-hour exam papers, one in
each discipline, but the final mark, shown on the certificate, was the
mean of all four papers. So Arthmetic was definitely seen as a branch
of Mathematics.

Not to mention calculating angles and trajectories.

--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Peter Moylan

2024-12-16 10:06:53 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes
At the end of the 12th year came the Matriculation (university
entrance) examination, where all four disciplines were part of
"Mathematics" (with an s). There were four 3-hour exam papers, one in
each discipline, but the final mark, shown on the certificate, was
the mean of all four papers. So Arthmetic was definitely seen as a
branch of Mathematics.

In my matriculation year I did two mathematics subjects. I think they
were called Pure Mathematics and Applied Mathematics. The syllabus was
probably set at Melbourne University, where they had two separate
departments with those names. As I recall it, applied mathematics there
was the mathematics relevant to physics, and pure mathematics included
most topics relevant to engineering.

Years later, I was collaborating with a senior member of the mathematics
department at the University of Newcastle, to see whether we could work
out a second year "mathematics for electrical engineers" syllabus. We
started with a list of all second year mathematics topics, and then he
started deleting the "useless" topics. I had to stop him. It turned
out that every topic that I regarded as "essential for EE", he regarded
as "no practical applications". He was amazed when I told him how we
used those "useless" subjects.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Silvano

2024-12-16 10:45:00 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
Years later, I was collaborating with a senior member of the mathematics
department at the University of Newcastle, to see whether we could work
out a second year "mathematics for electrical engineers" syllabus. We
started with a list of all second year mathematics topics, and then he
started deleting the "useless" topics. I had to stop him. It turned
out that every topic that I regarded as "essential for EE", he regarded
as "no practical applications". He was amazed when I told him how we
used those "useless" subjects.

Just curious: could you name a couple of those "useless" subject with a
short explanation, why they were essential for EE?

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-12-16 10:48:21 UTC

In my matriculation year I did two mathematics subjects. I think they
were called Pure Mathematics and Applied Mathematics. The syllabus was
probably set at Melbourne University, where they had two separate
departments with those names. As I recall it, applied mathematics there
was the mathematics relevant to physics, and pure mathematics included
most topics relevant to engineering.
Years later, I was collaborating with a senior member of the mathematics
department at the University of Newcastle, to see whether we could work
out a second year "mathematics for electrical engineers" syllabus. We
started with a list of all second year mathematics topics, and then he
started deleting the "useless" topics. I had to stop him. It turned
out that every topic that I regarded as "essential for EE", he regarded
as "no practical applications". He was amazed when I told him how we
used those "useless" subjects.

When I was first at Birmingham (from 1970) elementary mathematics was
taught to biochemistry students by someone from the mathematics
department. Some of us thought that that was unsatisfactory, and after
a struggle a colleague and I persuaded the department to let him and me
do it.

On a somewhat different point, in 1981 I published a book called Basic
Mathematics for Biochemists. It was reviewed in Nature, by Keith
Dalziel as it happens, the same chappy we were talking about yesterday.
He said it was OK as far as it went, but it was far too elementary for
his students. 17 years later I raised the possibility of a 2nd edition
with Oxford University Press. They had the proposal reviewed by four
experts, all of whom said, without exception, that the 1st edition was
too advanced for modern students. They wanted things like fractions to
be covered. I don't suppose the level of basic education has improved
since. My daughter, then 16, found it far too simple, but at that time
France still ranked with Russia as a country where mathematics was
properly taught. Today France is probably no better than England.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Garrett Wollman

2024-12-16 15:55:46 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan
In my matriculation year I did two mathematics subjects. I think they
were called Pure Mathematics and Applied Mathematics. The syllabus was
probably set at Melbourne University, where they had two separate
departments with those names. As I recall it, applied mathematics there
was the mathematics relevant to physics, and pure mathematics included
most topics relevant to engineering.

Interesting. When I was at Hopkins, they also had two math
departments -- I think one of them was called "Mathematics" and the
other was "Mathematical Sciences".[1] The former was in the School of
Arts and Sciences, and taught the regular math courses required of all
B.S. programs; the latter was in the School of Engineering and taught
statistics, control theory, information theory, and so on. (The
Computer Science department, where I was a student, was also in the
engineering school, but was separate from Electrical and Computer
Engineering.)

-GAWollman

[1] I see from Wikipedia that it is now called "Applied Mathematics &
Statistics".

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

J. J. Lodder

2024-12-16 10:49:50 UTC

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Sam Plusnet
I consider one a sub set of the other, so we're both correct.

In these parts arithmetic was what you learned in elementary school,
math in high school.
So if you can do it all with elementary school skills
it is arithmetic only, no math involved.

In my schooling we did arithmetic for the first 7 years.
In the 8th year algebra and geometry were added, and in the 10th year
trigonometry.
At the end of the 12th year came the Matriculation (university
entrance) examination, where all four disciplines were part of
"Mathematics" (with an s). There were four 3-hour exam papers, one in
each discipline, but the final mark, shown on the certificate, was the
mean of all four papers. So Arthmetic was definitely seen as a branch
of Mathematics.

Are you really trying to tell me that your university entrance exams
involved testing elementary school arithmetic skills?
In these parts such skills were taken for granted,
as they were automatically needed in testing other things.
(like in physics sums)

Jan

Tony Cooper

2024-12-15 01:18:36 UTC

On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:43:03 +0000, Paul Wolff

Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly a part of the definition
of sport. Take shooting for example. Or archery.

True. Archery and Darts both involve chucking arrows at a target.
You could argue that Darts is a more purist sport, since human muscles
are not aided by any mechanical contrivance.

It is also mathematically the most taxing. I know golf
involves forecasting parabolas, but having to work out the
best strategy for getting down from (insert any random
number) to zero, finishing on an appropriate double, is
a skill they can't teach you in primary school.
An appropriate double? Double top obviously. If you miss
a double sixteen, whether you miss with double eight
or single sixteen you are already homed-in for a winning
finish.
Triple nineteen triple eighteen double sixteen, is a three
dart finish from...where?

I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged', but
could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

"Maths", in my usage, would be several types of mathematics. Adding
sums is only one type.

Peter Moylan

2024-12-15 02:54:26 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

And, to balance the books, many mathematicians are arithmetically
challenged.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Snidely

2024-12-15 09:01:42 UTC

On Saturday or thereabouts, Peter Moylan declared ...

Post by Sam Plusnet
I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

And, to balance the books, many mathematicians are arithmetically challenged.

Can you group them together, or are they singularities?

/dps

--
Ieri, oggi, domani

Peter Moylan

2024-12-15 09:43:25 UTC

Post by Snidely
On Saturday or thereabouts, Peter Moylan declared ...

Post by Sam Plusnet
I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

And, to balance the books, many mathematicians are arithmetically challenged.

Can you group them together, or are they singularities?

Just stand them in a ring, out in a field.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Snidely

2024-12-15 12:00:28 UTC

Post by Snidely
On Saturday or thereabouts, Peter Moylan declared ...

Post by Sam Plusnet
I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

And, to balance the books, many mathematicians are arithmetically challenged.

Can you group them together, or are they singularities?

Just stand them in a ring, out in a field.

Or maybe knot them together at a donut shop.

/dps

--
"Maintaining a really good conspiracy requires far more intelligent
application, by a large number of people, than the world can readily
supply."

Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet

2024-12-15 20:38:15 UTC

Post by Snidely
On Saturday or thereabouts, Peter Moylan declared ...

Post by Sam Plusnet
I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

And, to balance the books, many mathematicians are arithmetically challenged.

Can you group them together, or are they singularities?

Just stand them in a ring, out in a field.

Or maybe knot them together at a donut shop.

Are you referring to a top 'ology?

--
Sam Plusnet

J. J. Lodder

2024-12-15 20:52:22 UTC

Post by Snidely
On Saturday or thereabouts, Peter Moylan declared ...

Post by Sam Plusnet
I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

And, to balance the books, many mathematicians are arithmetically challenged.

Can you group them together, or are they singularities?

Just stand them in a ring, out in a field.

Or maybe knot them together at a donut shop.

Are you referring to a top 'ology?

I don't think he is that kind of genus,

Jan

Snidely

2024-12-16 04:43:13 UTC

Post by Snidely
On Saturday or thereabouts, Peter Moylan declared ...

Post by Sam Plusnet
I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

And, to balance the books, many mathematicians are arithmetically challenged.

Can you group them together, or are they singularities?

Just stand them in a ring, out in a field.

Or maybe knot them together at a donut shop.

Are you referring to a top 'ology?

I don't think he is that kind of genus,
Jan

I am waiting to see the rest of the sheaf of answers.

-d

--
"Inviting people to laugh with you while you are laughing at yourself
is a good thing to do, You may be a fool but you're the fool in
charge." -- Carl Reiner

J. J. Lodder

2024-12-16 10:49:49 UTC

Post by Snidely
On Saturday or thereabouts, Peter Moylan declared ...

Post by Sam Plusnet
I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

And, to balance the books, many mathematicians are arithmetically challenged.

Can you group them together, or are they singularities?

Just stand them in a ring, out in a field.

Or maybe knot them together at a donut shop.

Are you referring to a top 'ology?

I don't think he is that kind of genus,

I am waiting to see the rest of the sheaf of answers.

I'm afraid that this is a rather open set...

Jan

occam

2024-12-15 09:10:57 UTC

Post by Sam Plusnet
I have known people who were decidedly 'mathematically challenged',
but could do Darts maths in an instant.

I don't think that's maths. I think it's arithmetic.

And, to balance the books, many mathematicians are arithmetically
challenged.

True dat ! The reverse is also true. Many people who can do arithmetic
in their heads are mathematically challenged.

Tony Cooper

2024-12-10 20:20:42 UTC

I would expect the announcement of a darts player as "Athlete of the
Year" to be announced in a publication like "The Onion" or "The Daily
Mash".

Who were the runners-up? A snooker player, a train spotter, and the
winner of the World Gurning Competition?

Many feel that golf is not a sport, and golf requires more physical
skills than throwing a dart.

Garrett Wollman

2024-12-11 00:04:10 UTC

Post by Tony Cooper
Many feel that golf is not a sport, and golf requires more physical
skills than throwing a dart.

That seems a bit extreme, although it is absolutely true that finding
the seam between sports and mere games is not necessarily easy.

The OED says:

I.4.a. An activity involving physical exertion and skill,
esp. (particularly in modern use) one regulated by set rules
or customs in which an individual or team competes against
another or others. Frequently in plural.

Golf certainly involves physical exertion. I think for some people,
"sport" is inextricably entwined with "sweaty", and perhaps golf (for
most golfers) and darts wouldn't qualify -- but then neither would
shooting. The OED continues:

In early use the sense of `sport' as a diversion or amusement
is paramount; by the 18th and 19th centuries the term was
often used with reference to hunting, shooting, and
fishing. The consolidation of organized sport (particularly
football, rugby, cricket, and athletics) in the 19th
cent. reinforced the notion of sport as physical competition.
(parenthetical cross-references omitted)

-GAWollman

Rich Ulrich

2024-12-11 01:34:52 UTC

On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 00:04:10 -0000 (UTC),

Post by Tony Cooper
Many feel that golf is not a sport, and golf requires more physical
skills than throwing a dart.

That seems a bit extreme, although it is absolutely true that finding
the seam between sports and mere games is not necessarily easy.
I.4.a. An activity involving physical exertion and skill,
esp. (particularly in modern use) one regulated by set rules
or customs in which an individual or team competes against
another or others. Frequently in plural.
Golf certainly involves physical exertion. I think for some people,
"sport" is inextricably entwined with "sweaty", and perhaps golf (for
most golfers) and darts wouldn't qualify -- but then neither would
In early use the sense of `sport' as a diversion or amusement
is paramount; by the 18th and 19th centuries the term was
often used with reference to hunting, shooting, and
fishing. The consolidation of organized sport (particularly
football, rugby, cricket, and athletics) in the 19th
cent. reinforced the notion of sport as physical competition.
(parenthetical cross-references omitted)

That's interesting - the physical competition was not first.

It occurs to me that the early Olympic sports were competitions
with relevance to fighting, back in the day when much of the
fighting could me one-on-one. Wrestling, throwing heavy
objects, racing of varioius distances.

"A diversion" that was built on military metaphors is chess.
I remember reading, once upon a time, that physical fitness
helps to separate the champions, because exerting the brain
for a few hours calls for endurance. OTOH, for most
participants, chess is no more warliike that card games of
strategy like bridge or poker.

When poker is on TV, is it on a sports channel? It offers gambling
as an extra overlap with modern sports.

--
Rich Ulrich

Snidely

2024-12-11 11:14:12 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Wed, 11 Dec 2024 00:04:10 -0000 (UTC),

Post by Tony Cooper
Many feel that golf is not a sport, and golf requires more physical
skills than throwing a dart.

That's interesting - the physical competition was not first.
It occurs to me that the early Olympic sports were competitions
with relevance to fighting, back in the day when much of the
fighting could me one-on-one. Wrestling, throwing heavy
objects, racing of varioius distances.
"A diversion" that was built on military metaphors is chess.
I remember reading, once upon a time, that physical fitness
helps to separate the champions, because exerting the brain
for a few hours calls for endurance. OTOH, for most
participants, chess is no more warliike that card games of
strategy like bridge or poker.
When poker is on TV, is it on a sports channel? It offers gambling
as an extra overlap with modern sports.

Yes. I've encountered it on ESPN at times, when the vintage basketball
game inventory was nearing an end of a cycle.

Lifting those chips can be quite a workout.

/dps

--
And the Raiders and the Broncos have life now in the West. I thought
they were both nearly dead if not quite really most sincerely dead. --
Mike Salfino, fivethirtyeight.com

Peter Moylan

2024-12-11 02:28:20 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Golf certainly involves physical exertion. I think for some people,
"sport" is inextricably entwined with "sweaty", and perhaps golf
(for most golfers) and darts wouldn't qualify -- but then neither
would shooting.

On the few occasions I've played golf, I've walked quite a long
distance. That's a sweaty occupation on a summer's day.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Garrett Wollman

2024-12-11 03:06:49 UTC

On the few occasions I've played golf, I've walked quite a long
distance. That's a sweaty occupation on a summer's day.

Professional golfers are required to walk (unless disabled), but I
dare say non-golfers' idea of what golf entails has more to do with
politicians and business exectives driving motorized carts around.
(There's a reason we call them "golf carts" even when they're used on
the beach rather than the golf course.)

-GAWollman

Peter Moylan

2024-12-11 10:46:33 UTC

Post by Garrett Wollman
Golf certainly involves physical exertion. I think for some
people, "sport" is inextricably entwined with "sweaty", and
perhaps golf (for most golfers) and darts wouldn't qualify -- but
then neither would shooting.

On the few occasions I've played golf, I've walked quite a long
distance. That's a sweaty occupation on a summer's day.

A few years ago I took a vacation on Hamilton Island, an island off the
coast of tropical Queensland. It turns out that cars are banned on that
island (except for a few special cases), so everyone there drives golf
carts.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

charles

2024-12-11 11:08:02 UTC

On the few occasions I've played golf, I've walked quite a long
distance. That's a sweaty occupation on a summer's day.

the 19th hole is also very important.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té²
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-12-11 08:51:25 UTC

On the few occasions I've played golf, I've walked quite a long
distance. That's a sweaty occupation on a summer's day.

Do as Trump does, with a motor vehicle to transport his fat body around
the course.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

lar3ryca

2024-12-12 05:29:23 UTC

Golf certainly involves physical exertion. I think for some people,
"sport" is inextricably entwined with "sweaty", and perhaps golf
(for most golfers) and darts wouldn't qualify -- but then neither
would shooting.

On the few occasions I've played golf, I've walked quite a long
distance. That's a sweaty occupation on a summer's day.

Do as Trump does, with a motor vehicle to transport his fat body around
the course.

If anyone has not seen it, "The Golf War" is hilarious.

--
Have you ever noticed what golf spells backwards?

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-12-11 08:47:46 UTC

I have been checking the Articles for Deletion list at Wikipedia. I've
been amazed at the number of darts players that someone regards as
notable. Not as many as footballers for obscure clubs, but getting
there.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

occam

2024-12-11 09:25:10 UTC

You should always bear in mind that the 'someone' who creates these Wiki
pages in the first place can be anyone (paid or unpaid), including the
person himself.

(Who decides who goes into the 'Articles to be deleted' list? I was not
aware the existence of such a page. Sounds not unlike an eviction order,
posted on the outside of a property.)

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-12-11 09:44:18 UTC

Post by occam
(Who decides who goes into the 'Articles to be deleted' list? I was not
aware the existence of such a page. Sounds not unlike an eviction order,
posted on the outside of a property.)

Anyone can set up a login to Wikipedia, and then you get editorial
rights. I presume that that is enough to edit the list.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

occam

2024-12-11 10:28:22 UTC

Post by occam
(Who decides who goes into the 'Articles to be deleted' list? I was not
aware the existence of such a page. Sounds not unlike an eviction order,
posted on the outside of a property.)

Anyone can set up a login to Wikipedia, and then you get editorial
rights. I presume that that is enough to edit the list.

If that is really the case, I would expect more negative editing e.g.
removal of names of competitors, etc. Surely there must be some vetting
of the people who can become (and remain) Wiki editors. Who edits
(vets) the editors?

[Bertel, before you feel compelled to reply, make sure you are speaking
from experience, not just expressing your expectations.]

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-12-11 10:52:45 UTC

Post by occam
(Who decides who goes into the 'Articles to be deleted' list? I was not
aware the existence of such a page. Sounds not unlike an eviction order,
posted on the outside of a property.)

Anyone can set up a login to Wikipedia, and then you get editorial
rights. I presume that that is enough to edit the list.

No initial editing. But if you set up several sock-puppet accounts and
get found out you will be blocked. Likewise if you engage in vandalism.

Post by occam
[Bertel, before you feel compelled to reply, make sure you are speaking
from experience, not just expressing your expectations.]

I'm not Bertel, and I don't live in Denmark, but I'm speaking from experience.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

occam

2024-12-11 11:25:57 UTC

Post by occam
(Who decides who goes into the 'Articles to be deleted' list? I was not
aware the existence of such a page. Sounds not unlike an eviction order,
posted on the outside of a property.)

Anyone can set up a login to Wikipedia, and then you get editorial
rights. I presume that that is enough to edit the list.

No initial editing. But if you set up several sock-puppet accounts and
get found out you will be blocked. Likewise if you engage in vandalism.

That sounds good. When I tire of Duolingo, I'll take up trawling
Wikipedia as my hobby and as part of my daily routine.

Post by occam
[Bertel, before you feel compelled to reply, make sure you are speaking
from experience, not just expressing your expectations.]

I'm not Bertel, and I don't live in Denmark, but I'm speaking from experience.

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-12-11 12:54:16 UTC

Post by occam
If that is really the case, I would expect more negative editing e.g.
removal of names of competitors, etc. Surely there must be some vetting
of the people who can become (and remain) Wiki editors. Who edits
(vets) the editors?

Other editors.

[Warning: Denmark]

There once was an incident that became quite famous in Denmark. A
journalist at one of our major news papers wanted to prove that
Wikipedia was unreliable, so he got a login and introduced some errors
in some article. While he was writing his piece, the error was
corrected, so he had to introduce it again only to see it being
corrected almost immediately. He then reintroduced the error and quickly
took a screen shot, and he used that in his article.

His project backfired. It became proof that errors are weeded out and
that Wikipedia - with obvious reservations - is quite a reliable medium.

Post by occam
[Bertel, before you feel compelled to reply, make sure you are speaking
from experience, not just expressing your expectations.]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

I always write under my full name, so a kill filter is guaranteed to
work as long as I live.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

J. J. Lodder

2024-12-11 14:25:56 UTC

Post by occam
(Who decides who goes into the 'Articles to be deleted' list? I was not
aware the existence of such a page. Sounds not unlike an eviction order,
posted on the outside of a property.)

Anyone can set up a login to Wikipedia, and then you get editorial
rights.

[reference needed]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I presume that that is enough to edit the list.

[personal opinion, to be deleted]

Jan

Rich Ulrich

2024-12-11 16:43:43 UTC

Post by occam
(Who decides who goes into the 'Articles to be deleted' list? I was not
aware the existence of such a page. Sounds not unlike an eviction order,
posted on the outside of a property.)

Anyone can set up a login to Wikipedia, and then you get editorial
rights.

[reference needed]

IIRC, for trivial edits to trivial articles, you don't even need to
login to Wikipedia to make the edit; it uses your internet address
for credit.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I presume that that is enough to edit the list.

[personal opinion, to be deleted]

FYI. I don't know what applies to the 'Articles to be deleted' list,
but I know that some Wiki texts have some degree of protection
against malicious edits.

I've contributed a handful of edits. On the last one, I discovered
that, Yes, my history of several edits over several years made me
eligible to make the edit that I intended (to the article on
Fake_News) without any aid. Earlier edits never had that step,
but were never about anything at all controversial.

Without my having prior credits, my intended change would have
been refereed by someone who could approve it or discuss it with me.

And I'm pretty sure I've seen a note on other articles, ones with
heated controversies, that any change has to be approved by a
a person or committee with special authority.

--
Rich Ulrich

Garrett Wollman

2024-12-11 16:58:25 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
FYI. I don't know what applies to the 'Articles to be deleted' list,
but I know that some Wiki texts have some degree of protection
against malicious edits.

There are a few different levels of protection. Some articles can
only be edited by an administrator; some articles can only be edited
by "confirmed" users -- that's people who have accounts and a long
enough history edits; most articles can be edited by anyone.

The articles that get protection are generally the ones that are
either very prominent and thus targets for vandalism -- anything
linked from the main page, for example -- or have been prone to
see-saw edit warring in the past and it's decided that consensus
should be hashed out in the talk pages before edits are made to the
public page.

There is in addition a mechanism whereby edits to a page can be
permitted but withheld from public view until reviewed by another
editor.

There are two different ways to delete an article: "speedy", which can
be done by unanimous consent, and the regular Articles for Deletion
process, which involves a tedious debate. I've requested speedy
deletions a few times (there is a list of acceptable reasons and the
burden of evidence is much lower) but I've avoided participation in
the AfD debates. Similarly, there are two ways an article can be
renamed: either an editor proposes a rename and this is debated, or a
"confirmed" editor just [[WP:BOLD|is bold]] and renames it on their
own initiative. (I've done this.)

-GAWollman

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-12-11 17:47:18 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
FYI. I don't know what applies to the 'Articles to be deleted' list,
but I know that some Wiki texts have some degree of protection
against malicious edits.

There are a few different levels of protection. Some articles can
only be edited by an administrator; some articles can only be edited
by "confirmed" users -- that's people who have accounts and a long
enough history edits; most articles can be edited by anyone.
The articles that get protection are generally the ones that are
either very prominent and thus targets for vandalism -- anything
linked from the main page, for example -- or have been prone to
see-saw edit warring in the past and it's decided that consensus
should be hashed out in the talk pages before edits are made to the
public page.
There is in addition a mechanism whereby edits to a page can be
permitted but withheld from public view until reviewed by another
editor.
There are two different ways to delete an article: "speedy", which can
be done by unanimous consent, and the regular Articles for Deletion
process, which involves a tedious debate. I've requested speedy
deletions a few times (there is a list of acceptable reasons and the
burden of evidence is much lower) but I've avoided participation in
the AfD debates. Similarly, there are two ways an article can be
renamed: either an editor proposes a rename and this is debated, or a
"confirmed" editor just [[WP:BOLD|is bold]] and renames it on their
own initiative. (I've done this.)

Renaming can sometimes be a pain in the neck, especially if the name
you want has special characters in it.

There are a lot of enzymes with IUBMB accepted names like
α,α-Phosphotrehalase that have articles with titles like
alpha,alpha-Phosphotrehalase or, worse, but doesn't apply to this
example, a,a-Phosphotrehalase. I don't know why people created them
like that, as Wikipedia makes it easy to type Greek letters (at least,
it does now; whether it always did I don't know); I put it down to
laziness. Anyway I couldn't fix these. I appealed, and received
"extendedmover" user right, but only for a limited time, which expired
long before I was finished. I can almost certainly get this renewed,
but I've had other things to do.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

J. J. Lodder

2024-12-11 22:01:00 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
FYI. I don't know what applies to the 'Articles to be deleted' list,
but I know that some Wiki texts have some degree of protection
against malicious edits.

So far the theory. In practice, for most articles of any importance,
there are one or a few people who regard it as 'their baby'.
They guard it, and any change they don't like gets reversed rapidly.
They even keep the score, like 'this article is 73% mine'.

On the good side, articles may also be brought up to date quite rapidly.
For example, when an airliner goes down
the fact may appear on the wikipedia page for that type within minutes,
and developments in the case will be followed as more information
becomes available.

Jan

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-12-12 08:29:58 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
FYI. I don't know what applies to the 'Articles to be deleted' list,
but I know that some Wiki texts have some degree of protection
against malicious edits.

Fortunately that doesn't seem to happen with the articles that interest me.

Post by J. J. Lodder
On the good side, articles may also be brought up to date quite rapidly.
For example, when an airliner goes down
the fact may appear on the wikipedia page for that type within minutes,
and developments in the case will be followed as more information
becomes available.
Jan

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-12-11 19:17:44 UTC

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Anyone can set up a login to Wikipedia, and then you get editorial
rights.

[reference needed]

I have a login to Wikipedia, and I can edit any article.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Athel Cornish-Bowden

2024-12-11 10:49:22 UTC

Anyone can nominate an article for deletion: you can, I can (and have
once done so). However, nomination is followed by a search for
consensus.

Post by occam
I was not
aware the existence of such a page. Sounds not unlike an eviction order,
posted on the outside of a property.)

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Hibou

2024-12-12 06:19:41 UTC

If darts is a sport (I'm not convinced), then IMHO that would make a
darts player a sportsman, but not an athlete. An athlete requires
strength, speed, or endurance, my dictionary tells me.

I don't watch darts, but aren't beer bellies fairly usual? As it
happens, I was amused to read this yesterday:

« Le nouvel évêque de Tanger [...] C'était un gros homme de grande
taille, un de ces beaux prélats chez qui le ventre est une majesté »
('Bel-Ami' de Maupassant).

The new bishop of Tangiers... was a big, tall man, one of those handsome
prelates whose belly is a glory.

occam

2024-12-12 07:04:51 UTC

Post by Hibou

If darts is a sport (I'm not convinced), then IMHO that would make a
darts player a sportsman, but not an athlete. An athlete requires
strength, speed, or endurance, my dictionary tells me.

I'm curious about the use of the 'or' in that last sentence. Does an
athlete require one of those qualities, or all of them?

If the answer is 'all', I can give you a long list of athletics events
that fail those conditions. E.g. archery,

If the answer is 'one', than I can think of a long list of things that
should be classified as athletics which certainly are not.

Your dictionary's definition is only part of the reality. As is my
definition (else-thread) "Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly
a part of the definition."

Post by Hibou
I don't watch darts, but aren't beer bellies fairly usual? As it
« Le nouvel évêque de Tanger [...] C'était un gros homme de grande
taille, un de ces beaux prélats chez qui le ventre est une majesté
» ('Bel-Ami' de Maupassant).

That could describe any one of the darts players on UK TV, including
the women.

Hibou

2024-12-12 08:47:54 UTC

Post by Hibou
If darts is a sport (I'm not convinced), then IMHO that would make a
darts player a sportsman, but not an athlete. An athlete requires
strength, speed, or endurance, my dictionary tells me.

I'm curious about the use of the 'or' in that last sentence. Does an
athlete require one of those qualities, or all of them?
If the answer is 'all', I can give you a long list of athletics events
that fail those conditions. E.g. archery,
If the answer is 'one', than I can think of a long list of things that
should be classified as athletics which certainly are not.
Your dictionary's definition is only part of the reality. As is my
definition (else-thread) "Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly
a part of the definition."

Well, it's only a dictionary, and a small one at that. (Specifically, a
Collins one that came free as a CD with a copy of 'The Scotsman'
newspaper in about 2000. It still lives on the PC, and is the easiest
and quickest to use.) And, in fairness to it, I quoted only part of the
entry.

<https://www.cjoint.com/c/NLmiUeRu1GK> (link valid 21 days)

I think I'd say that an athlete needs one or more of strength, speed,
and endurance. A shot-putter, for example, needs strength - and speed,
Google tells me - but does not need the endurance of a long-distance runner.

A navvy may have strength and endurance, but that does not make him an
athlete.

That could describe any one of the darts players on UK TV, including
the women.

Chouette ! (I'm carefully avoiding the plural.)

Phil

2024-12-12 12:44:16 UTC

Post by Hibou

I'm curious about the use of the 'or' in that last sentence. Does an
athlete require one of those qualities, or all of them?
If the answer is 'all', I can give you a long list of athletics events
that fail those conditions. E.g. archery,
If the answer is 'one', than I can think of a long list of things that
should be classified as athletics which certainly are not.
Your dictionary's definition is only part of the reality. As is my
definition (else-thread) "Hand-eye coordination and skill are certainly
a part of the definition."

Well, it's only a dictionary, and a small one at that. (Specifically, a
Collins one that came free as a CD with a copy of 'The Scotsman'
newspaper in about 2000. It still lives on the PC, and is the easiest
and quickest to use.) And, in fairness to it, I quoted only part of the
entry.
<https://www.cjoint.com/c/NLmiUeRu1GK> (link valid 21 days)
I think I'd say that an athlete needs one or more of strength, speed,
and endurance. A shot-putter, for example, needs strength - and speed,
Google tells me - but does not need the endurance of a long-distance runner.
A navvy may have strength and endurance, but that does not make him an
athlete.

Just so. An athlete needs one or more of strength, speed, endurance,
hand-eye coordination, skill; but someone who has those attributes isn't
automatically an athlete. The example that my wife immediately offered
was ballet dancers -- not normally classed as athletes, but certainly
having the necessary skill etc.

Post by Hibou

That could describe any one of the darts players on UK TV, including
the women.

Chouette ! (I'm carefully avoiding the plural.)

--
Phil B

Bertel Lund Hansen

2024-12-12 13:14:23 UTC

Post by Phil
Just so. An athlete needs one or more of strength, speed, endurance,
hand-eye coordination, skill; but someone who has those attributes isn't
automatically an athlete. The example that my wife immediately offered
was ballet dancers -- not normally classed as athletes, but certainly
having the necessary skill etc.

I wonder if there's a sport where their particular body control would be
an advantage.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Rich Ulrich

2024-12-12 14:19:01 UTC

On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 14:14:23 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

I wonder if there's a sport where their particular body control would be
an advantage.

Lynn Swann was a graceful wide receiver for the Pittsburgh Steelers
a few decades ago. He gained some local (at least) notoriety for
taking ballet lessons for the stated reason of improving body control.

--
Rich Ulrich

Sam Plusnet

2024-12-12 19:57:25 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 14:14:23 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

I wonder if there's a sport where their particular body control would be
an advantage.

There was a story in the UK press, quite a few decades ago, in which the
manager of a professional football team had the players take a few
ballet lessons for probably the same reason.

--
Sam Plusnet

Rich Ulrich

2024-12-12 21:46:38 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 14:14:23 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

I wonder if there's a sport where their particular body control would be
an advantage.

There was a story in the UK press, quite a few decades ago, in which the
manager of a professional football team had the players take a few
ballet lessons for probably the same reason.

Of course, the other people with excellent body awareness
and body control are martial artists -- which gets back to
roots in fighting.

"Shall we dance?" This asks someone fight or to join a fight,
in some books I've read. It may have surprised me when I
first ran across it, but that seems like a long time ago.

Some martial arts more than others teach and require whole-body
awareness and control.

Sharon Lee's "Fledgling" (Sci-Fi) has a young heroine, Theo Waitley,
who is clumsy as an adolescent because her muscles have not
caught up with her exceptional reaction times. Martial arts are
not taught on her "peaceful" planet, as a matter of ideology.
Her father, a one-time space pilot, signs her up for a dance
class which, not by accident, teaches a slow version of katas
of the defense sport that he knows well. (Liaden series)

--
Rich Ulrich

Peter Moylan

2024-12-12 22:11:12 UTC

"Shall we dance?" This asks someone fight or to join a fight, in
some books I've read. It may have surprised me when I first ran
across it, but that seems like a long time ago.
Some martial arts more than others teach and require whole-body
awareness and control.

I played judo for a short while in my younger days. The most important
skill that taught me was how to fall (relatively) safely. That probably
saved me from worse damage a few years ago when I had a bad fall.
Unfortunately the fall was onto a road from a path a bit higher up, and
the momentum of the landing forced my head forward, leading to my
breaking several teeth.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Rich Ulrich

2024-12-13 18:24:26 UTC

I played judo for a short while in my younger days.

I think I've never heard, "played judo". "Do" and "take" or "study"
are familiar to me. -- However, the phrase yields some interesting
hits on Google, beyond the hits for "played judo".

Here is a take on Chess as a sport.
What sport is the most mentally draining?

Chess – Chess is often considered one of the most mentally
challenging sports, as players must think multiple moves ahead,
anticipate their opponent's strategies, and maintain concentration
over long games.Dec 30, 2023

Post by Peter Moylan
The most important
skill that taught me was how to fall (relatively) safely. That probably
saved me from worse damage a few years ago when I had a bad fall.
Unfortunately the fall was onto a road from a path a bit higher up, and
the momentum of the landing forced my head forward, leading to my
breaking several teeth.

I never took judo, but learning "how to fall" was a lesson I got
from somewhere. It was sort of in the air, useful for many sports,
but not a thing that everyone paid attention to.

--
Rich Ulrich

Silvano

2024-12-13 20:27:19 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
Here is a take on Chess as a sport.
What sport is the most mentally draining?
Chess – Chess is often considered one of the most mentally
challenging sports, as players must think multiple moves ahead,
anticipate their opponent's strategies, and maintain concentration
over long games.Dec 30, 2023

I have a funny story about that. German fiscal laws have some special
arrangements favouring sports and a special provision states that "for
the purposes of this law, chess is considered to be a sport."

In 1989 there was a proposal to add some other games of skill to chess
(bridge and skat - with special arrangements for the card distribution -
go and a couple of other games) and they were discussing the matter in
the German Parliament when a clerk approached the president and told him
that an extremely unusual opening had just been announced on TV, the
opening of the Berlin Wall. The Parliament meeting ended there and then
and as far as I know that was the end of that proposal.

JFTR, the chess world champion was defeated by a computer 20 years
before the go world champion.

Anders D. Nygaard

2024-12-14 08:20:31 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 14:14:23 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

I wonder if there's a sport where their particular body control would be
an advantage.

There was a story in the UK press, quite a few decades ago, in which the
manager of a professional football team had the players take a few
ballet lessons for probably the same reason.

And "Pumping Iron" shows Arnold taking ballet lessons.

/Anders, Denmark

Snidely

2024-12-13 00:41:43 UTC

I wonder if there's a sport where their particular body control would be
an advantage.

Gymnastics?

-d

--
Courage is knowing it might hurt, and doing it anyway.
Stupidity is the same.
And that's why life is hard.
-- the World Wide Web

occam

2024-12-13 08:46:41 UTC

Post by Phil
Just so. An athlete needs one or more of strength, speed, endurance,
hand-eye coordination, skill; but someone who has those attributes
isn't automatically an athlete. The example that my wife immediately
offered was ballet dancers -- not normally classed as athletes, but
certainly having the necessary skill etc.

I wonder if there's a sport where their particular body control would be
an advantage.

Gymnastics?

Fencing. Speed, hand-eye coordination, dexterity and the graceful
movements of a ballet dancer.

Rich Ulrich

2024-12-13 17:39:34 UTC

Post by Phil
Just so. An athlete needs one or more of strength, speed, endurance,
hand-eye coordination, skill; but someone who has those attributes
isn't automatically an athlete. The example that my wife immediately
offered was ballet dancers -- not normally classed as athletes, but
certainly having the necessary skill etc.

I wonder if there's a sport where their particular body control would be
an advantage.

Gymnastics?

Fencing. Speed, hand-eye coordination, dexterity and the graceful
movements of a ballet dancer.

From the tiny bit I know, competitive fencers certainly need control
of body position, to avoid those 'touches'. And, I lasted halfway
through a 10-session 'course' on fencing, before I decided that the
soreness from that peculliar squat-position was interfering with my
weekly games of squash.

Plus. I've read that fencing in competitions develops endurance
even more than playing high-level squash. One match might seem
not-too-bad, but they do a whole bunch of matches in one day.
I once read that fencers can tackle a marathon without extra
training.

By the way, when it comes to training for endurance, the
professionalism of athletes has increased even in the last decade.
I heard Coco Gauff (tennis) explain that she intends to NEVER
lose a match because of 'running out of gas' at the end.

And the longevity of a couple of pro quarterbacks gets
explained by their attention to training, not merely by how
they don't get beaten up so much as the other players.

--
Rich Ulrich

Silvano

2024-12-13 20:42:00 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich
And the longevity of a couple of pro quarterbacks gets
explained by their attention to training, not merely by how
they don't get beaten up so much as the other players.

Uneducated guess: the longevity of a couple of pro quarterbacks depends
mainly on the quality of their defence team.

I'm pretty sure that Tom Brady and Brett Favre would not have survived
as quarterbacks for over twenty years if they had been sacked three or
four times in each pro game.

Peter Moylan

2024-12-13 21:36:34 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich

Post by occam
Fencing. Speed, hand-eye coordination, dexterity and the graceful
movements of a ballet dancer.

ObFiction: Speed of Dark, by Elizabeth Moon. The central character is
autistic -- that's relevant to the main plot -- and he participates in a
fencing group once a week. At one stage in the story someone tries to
murder him. His fencing training allows him to predict the movements of
the attacker, and that allows him to take the gun from the other person.

--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Chris Elvidge

2024-12-13 23:21:56 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich

Post by occam
Fencing. Speed, hand-eye coordination, dexterity and the graceful
movements of a ballet dancer.

According to PTerry the speed of dark is obviously faster than the speed
of light. By the time light gets there, dark has been there for some time.

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT STRUT AROUND LIKE I OWN THE PLACE

Snidely

2024-12-14 00:08:17 UTC

Post by Rich Ulrich

Post by Phil
Just so. An athlete needs one or more of strength, speed, endurance,
hand-eye coordination, skill; but someone who has those attributes
isn't automatically an athlete. The example that my wife immediately
offered was ballet dancers -- not normally classed as athletes, but
certainly having the necessary skill etc.

I wonder if there's a sport where their particular body control would be
an advantage.

Gymnastics?

Fencing. Speed, hand-eye coordination, dexterity and the graceful
movements of a ballet dancer.

I did 3 years of fencing in college, and by the end could hold my own
against raw beginners. I do have a 3rd in sabre, because that
competition had 3 entries. One of the entries went on to the US
Olympic team.

I doubt I could ever run a marathon, even when my knees had cartilege.
I could manage a steady jog for 20 minutes in high school, though,
which got me 10 laps and would have qualified me for the green gym
shorts if I could have climbed rope more often.

Post by Rich Ulrich
By the way, when it comes to training for endurance, the
professionalism of athletes has increased even in the last decade.
I heard Coco Gauff (tennis) explain that she intends to NEVER
lose a match because of 'running out of gas' at the end.
And the longevity of a couple of pro quarterbacks gets
explained by their attention to training, not merely by how
they don't get beaten up so much as the other players.

I don't think that was a Phillie QB, though. The kid from farther
north, whose NFL coach just landed a college job, was very serious
about training,, AIUI.

Can't tell you how much Unitas and Blanda trained, but they were
longevity standouts in the previous century. Blanda, of course,
finsihed off more as a kicker than a QB, but he did a few sets even
towards the end of his career, didn't he?

/dps

--
I have always been glad we weren't killed that night. I do not know
any particular reason, but I have always been glad.
_Roughing It_, Mark Twain

Garrett Wollman

2024-12-13 02:08:04 UTC

I wonder if there's a sport where their particular body control would be
an advantage.

Ummm, ice dance, perhaps?

Also figure skating, especially pairs; they often get training with
cirque coaches for the lifts. And synchronized skating, too. Not to
mention artistic swimming (f/k/a "synchronized swimming").

-GAWollman

Anders D. Nygaard

2024-12-14 08:24:56 UTC