variants for 'toe the line between'

[jinhyun]

Hi. I invite members to come up with variant expressions for 'toe the
line between' as in:
'Hollywood Squares toes the line between racy and informative' where
it seems to strike a balance between two alternatives or 'Picassso
toed the line between genius and madness' where it seems to mean walk
on the edge of two more or less incompatible but bordering states of
being. The expression has such a low google count that I fear using it
may cause confusion. Also no dictionaries online or offline (in my
possession) list it. The best I can think of are 'walk the middle
ground' and 'thread the edge' for the Picasso example; but neither
really appeals to me. Thanks.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by jinhyun
Hi. I invite members to come up with variant expressions for 'toe the
'Hollywood Squares toes the line between racy and informative' where
it seems to strike a balance between two alternatives or 'Picassso
toed the line between genius and madness' where it seems to mean walk
on the edge of two more or less incompatible but bordering states of
being. The expression has such a low google count that I fear using it
may cause confusion. Also no dictionaries online or offline (in my
possession) list it. The best I can think of are 'walk the middle
ground' and 'thread the edge' for the Picasso example; but neither
really appeals to me. Thanks.

You appear to be proposing mixtures of several
distinct proverbial phrases:

1: Toe the line = stand up prepared to fight.
This is a phrase from 19th-century boxing (when
boxers fought at ground level rather than on an
elevated platform demarcated by ropes) and each
round began when the boxers came up to scratch
i.e. were capable of standing unaided with their
toes on a line scratched across the ground.

2: Draw a line = demarcate, as when a mapmaker
draws the land boundary between Canada and the USA,
when a grammarian distinguishes correct from wrong
usage etc.

3: Walk the line = patrol, as repairmen used to inspect
(on foot) telephone, telegraph or railway lines in order
to find and repair breaks in the line.

The supposed near relationship between genius and
madness is usually traceable to a couplet of John
Dryden's:
"Great wits are sure to madness near allied,
And thin partitions do their bounds divide."
This appears in his satire Absalom and Achitophel,
formerly famous and part of the core literary
curriculum for 150+ years.

Thus the etymologically correct line that people toe
has nothing to do with any supposed line demarcating
zones of difference. But current speech so muddles
and mixes these various phrases as to obscure both
their origins and their supposed meaning. I suggest
any set of "variants" will add muddle rather than clarity.

[jinhyun]

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by jinhyun
Hi. I invite members to come up with variant expressions for 'toe the
'Hollywood Squares toes the line between racy and informative' where
it seems to strike a balance between two alternatives or 'Picassso
toed the line between genius and madness' where it seems to mean walk
on the edge of two more or less incompatible but bordering states of
being. The expression has such a low google count that I fear using it
may cause confusion. Also no dictionaries online or offline (in my
possession) list it. The best I can think of are 'walk the middle
ground' and 'thread the edge' for the Picasso example; but neither
really appeals to me. Thanks.

You appear to be proposing mixtures of several

Yeah, that's how the phrase has originated no doubt. But while it
hasn't really caught on, it's purported meaning is often in need of
being expresed. But I can't think of any other more idiomatic
expression or expressions which fit the bill -- hence the topic.

Post by Don Phillipson
The supposed near relationship between genius and
madness is usually traceable to a couplet of John
"Great wits are sure to madness near allied,
And thin partitions do their bounds divide."
This appears in his satire Absalom and Achitophel,
formerly famous and part of the core literary
curriculum for 150+ years.

Somehow, I think that it might be possible to trace it to deeper
antiquity. It's such a common old idea, and grounded in fact besides.

Post by Don Phillipson
Thus the etymologically correct line that people toe
has nothing to do with any supposed line demarcating
zones of difference. But current speech so muddles
and mixes these various phrases as to obscure both
their origins and their supposed meaning. >

You're probably speaking of the dictionary meaning of 'toe the line'
meaning to follow rules, be politically correct etc. Yeah, that has
nothing to do with the 'toe the line between' phrase

I suggest

Post by Don Phillipson
any set of "variants" will add muddle rather than clarity.

Not sure what you're getting at here.We simply want variant but more
idiomatic ways of saying what 'toe the line between' means. Clarity is
not the issue.
--

Post by Don Phillipson
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[Donna Richoux]

Post by jinhyun

Post by Don Phillipson
You appear to be proposing mixtures of several

Yeah, that's how the phrase has originated no doubt. But while it
hasn't really caught on, it's purported meaning is often in need of
being expresed. But I can't think of any other more idiomatic
expression or expressions which fit the bill -- hence the topic.

Maybe what you're looking for is "to tread a fine line". There are
various other verbs that can be used, and various ways to modify how
fine the line is.

But since that one is specifically about the difficulty of
distinguishing or separating or navigating between the two sides, it
still may not be what you're hoping for.

[jinhyun]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by jinhyun

Post by Don Phillipson
You appear to be proposing mixtures of several

Yeah, that's how the phrase has originated no doubt. But while it
hasn't really caught on, it's purported meaning is often in need of
being expresed. But I can't think of any other more idiomatic
expression or expressions which fit the bill -- hence the topic.

Maybe what you're looking for is "to tread a fine line". There are
various other verbs that can be used, and various ways to modify how
fine the line is.
But since that one is specifically about the difficulty of
distinguishing or separating or navigating between the two sides, it
still may not be what you're hoping for.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux

Well, google results show that the phrase you give (and David gives),
the sound of which is quite pleasant, is nonetheless actually less
idiomatic than the 'toe the line' version. So, maybe it still isn't
what we're looking for.

[dcw]

Post by jinhyun
Well, google results show that the phrase you give (and David gives),
the sound of which is quite pleasant, is nonetheless actually less
idiomatic than the 'toe the line' version. So, maybe it still isn't
what we're looking for.

Are you sure? Google can tell you (more or less) how common a phrase
is, but not what people mean by it. I wouldn't recognise "toe the
line" in the sense that you want.

David

[jinhyun]

Post by dcw

Post by jinhyun
Well, google results show that the phrase you give (and David gives),
the sound of which is quite pleasant, is nonetheless actually less
idiomatic than the 'toe the line' version. So, maybe it still isn't
what we're looking for.

Are you sure? Google can tell you (more or less) how common a phrase
is, but not what people mean by it. I wouldn't recognise "toe the
line" in the sense that you want.
David

No, that's why I specifically put "toe the line between" in the
search; and I checked the results. They mean what I think the phrase
means. I acquired it myself naturally, probably from American sitcoms,
sports-writing and sundry examples of 'casual' English' Only recently
have I discovered that it isn't quite legitimate -- from the google
results and the fact that dictionaries don't list it.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by jinhyun

Post by dcw

Post by jinhyun
Well, google results show that the phrase you give (and David
gives), the sound of which is quite pleasant, is nonetheless
actually less idiomatic than the 'toe the line' version. So, maybe
it still isn't what we're looking for.

Are you sure? Google can tell you (more or less) how common a phrase
is, but not what people mean by it. I wouldn't recognise "toe the
line" in the sense that you want.
David

No, that's why I specifically put "toe the line between" in the
search; and I checked the results. They mean what I think the phrase
means. I acquired it myself naturally, probably from American sitcoms,
sports-writing and sundry examples of 'casual' English' Only recently
have I discovered that it isn't quite legitimate -- from the google
results and the fact that dictionaries don't list it.

With that meaning it isn't legitimate _at all_. If you use it that way,
you will be criticised, if not misunderstood. "Tread a fine line
between" is not less idiomatic than "toe the line", and it appears to be
the cliché you're looking for. If you don't like "tread", try "walk",
perhaps.

[Donna Richoux]

Post by jinhyun

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by jinhyun

Post by Don Phillipson
You appear to be proposing mixtures of several

Yeah, that's how the phrase has originated no doubt. But while it
hasn't really caught on, it's purported meaning is often in need of
being expresed. But I can't think of any other more idiomatic
expression or expressions which fit the bill -- hence the topic.

Maybe what you're looking for is "to tread a fine line". There are
various other verbs that can be used, and various ways to modify how
fine the line is.
But since that one is specifically about the difficulty of
distinguishing or separating or navigating between the two sides, it
still may not be what you're hoping for.

Can you snip signature lines, please?

Post by jinhyun
Well, google results show that the phrase you give (and David gives),
the sound of which is quite pleasant, is nonetheless actually less
idiomatic than the 'toe the line' version.

Jinhyun, I have encouraged a custom around here of people actually
quoting their Google search strings and result numbers, hopefully in a
clear format, rather than just waving their hands and saying that the
numbers imply thus-and-so. We don't quote as many numbers as we did for
a while, because of technical errors that crept in, so you may not have
seen much of this.

Post by jinhyun
So, maybe it still isn't
what we're looking for.

My remarks about the various ways it could be stated was a
word-to-the-wise about how any Googling should be conducted.

For example, "treads * fine line" gives a generous 30,000 hits, starting
with:

treads the fine line
treads a very fine line
treads an awfully fine line
treads quite so fine a line
treads an incredibly fine line
treads a fine line
etc,

Any single search would have missed the others.

If you want to add "between," add "between".

"treads * fine line between" 21,700
"toes * fine line between" 84

"treads * line between" 52,000
"toes * line between" 10,900

That last one appears to be the case you are talking about, which some
people here doubt exists. 10,000+ is a sizeable result. But I haven't
looked very hard at the results, which I suggest you do. Sometimes
there's an alternative explanation.

I notice that removing "fine" turns up the line also being delicate,
imperceptible, thin, same, unsteady, etc.

[jinhyun]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by jinhyun

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by jinhyun

Post by Don Phillipson
You appear to be proposing mixtures of several

Yeah, that's how the phrase has originated no doubt. But while it
hasn't really caught on, it's purported meaning is often in need of
being expresed. But I can't think of any other more idiomatic
expression or expressions which fit the bill -- hence the topic.

Maybe what you're looking for is "to tread a fine line". There are
various other verbs that can be used, and various ways to modify how
fine the line is.
But since that one is specifically about the difficulty of
distinguishing or separating or navigating between the two sides, it
still may not be what you're hoping for.

Can you snip signature lines, please?

Post by jinhyun
Well, google results show that the phrase you give (and David gives),
the sound of which is quite pleasant, is nonetheless actually less
idiomatic than the 'toe the line' version.

Jinhyun, I have encouraged a custom around here of people actually
quoting their Google search strings and result numbers, hopefully in a
clear format, rather than just waving their hands and saying that the
numbers imply thus-and-so. We don't quote as many numbers as we did for
a while, because of technical errors that crept in, so you may not have
seen much of this.

Post by jinhyun
So, maybe it still isn't
what we're looking for.

My remarks about the various ways it could be stated was a
word-to-the-wise about how any Googling should be conducted.
For example, "treads * fine line" gives a generous 30,000 hits, starting
treads the fine line
treads a very fine line
treads an awfully fine line
treads quite so fine a line
treads an incredibly fine line
treads a fine line
etc,
Any single search would have missed the others.
If you want to add "between," add "between".
"treads * fine line between" 21,700
"toes * fine line between" 84
"treads * line between" 52,000
"toes * line between" 10,900
That last one appears to be the case you are talking about, which some
people here doubt exists. 10,000+ is a sizeable result. But I haven't
looked very hard at the results, which I suggest you do. Sometimes
there's an alternative explanation.
I notice that removing "fine" turns up the line also being delicate,
imperceptible, thin, same, unsteady, etc.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
What- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

No, you're right. I might have made a mistake in the previous search,
perhaps misspelling one of he words inadvertantly. 'Tread the line
between' is more popular than the 'toe' version. The version with
'walk' though seems most popular. But 'tread' is better for reasons
I've explained before. I think I'll use that.

[Oleg Lego]

Post by jinhyun
No, you're right. I might have made a mistake in the previous search,
perhaps misspelling one of he words inadvertantly. 'Tread the line
between' is more popular than the 'toe' version. The version with
'walk' though seems most popular. But 'tread' is better for reasons
I've explained before. I think I'll use that.

In North America, "walk" is idiomatic. "Tread" is seldom used.

[jinhyun]

Post by jinhyun

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by jinhyun

Post by Donna Richoux
Maybe what you're looking for is "to tread a fine line". There are
various other verbs that can be used, and various ways to modify how
fine the line is.
But since that one is specifically about the difficulty of
distinguishing or separating or navigating between the two sides, it
still may not be what you're hoping for.

Well, google results show that the phrase you give (and David gives),
the sound of which is quite pleasant, is nonetheless actually less
idiomatic than the 'toe the line' version.

Jinhyun, I have encouraged a custom around here of people actually
quoting their Google search strings and result numbers, hopefully in a
clear format, rather than just waving their hands and saying that the
numbers imply thus-and-so. We don't quote as many numbers as we did for
a while, because of technical errors that crept in, so you may not have
seen much of this.

Post by jinhyun
So, maybe it still isn't
what we're looking for.

My remarks about the various ways it could be stated was a
word-to-the-wise about how any Googling should be conducted.
For example, "treads * fine line" gives a generous 30,000 hits, starting
treads the fine line
treads a very fine line
treads an awfully fine line
treads quite so fine a line
treads an incredibly fine line
treads a fine line
etc,
Any single search would have missed the others.
If you want to add "between," add "between".
"treads * fine line between" 21,700
"toes * fine line between" 84
"treads * line between" 52,000
"toes * line between" 10,900
That last one appears to be the case you are talking about, which some
people here doubt exists. 10,000+ is a sizeable result. But I haven't
looked very hard at the results, which I suggest you do. Sometimes
there's an alternative explanation.
I notice that removing "fine" turns up the line also being delicate,
imperceptible, thin, same, unsteady, etc.
--

No, you're right. I might have made a mistake in the previous search,
perhaps misspelling one of he words inadvertantly. 'Tread the line
between' is more popular than the 'toe' version. The version with
'walk' though seems most popular. But 'tread' is better for reasons
I've explained before. I think I'll use that.- Hide quoted text -

In fact, I think I know precisely what mistake I made the first time:
that was to have misread 'tread' as 'thread' in your recommendation,
because I'd used 'thread' in one of the alternatives I proposed in the
topic post.(thread too has connotations of making your way through a
narrow passage) Naturally there were very few hits; but interestingly
some folks are using 'thread' instead of 'tread'[I checked the
contexts too. The meaning is the same] In this particular case though,
I don't think you can fault people, because the expression is a quite
understandable metaphor, whichever expression (tread/thread/toe) is
used. It's not like 'cat got your tongue' where you can't change
anything because the intended meaning has nothing to do with cats or
tongues and you're forced to reproduce the cliche verbatim every
time.

[Skitt]

Post by jinhyun
No, you're right. I might have made a mistake in the previous search,
perhaps misspelling one of he words inadvertantly.

Yes, *inadvertent* misspellings happen often.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by Skitt

Post by jinhyun
No, you're right. I might have made a mistake in the previous search,
perhaps misspelling one of he words inadvertantly.

Yes, *inadvertent* misspellings happen often.

Especially with those troublesome he words: I think it's the
testosterone that makes them unpredictable.

[rzed]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by jinhyun

Post by Donna Richoux

On Mar 14, 7:02 pm, "Don Phillipson"

Post by Don Phillipson
You appear to be proposing mixtures of several

Yeah, that's how the phrase has originated no doubt. But
while it hasn't really caught on, it's purported meaning is
often in need of being expresed. But I can't think of any
other more idiomatic expression or expressions which fit
the bill -- hence the topic.

Maybe what you're looking for is "to tread a fine line".
There are various other verbs that can be used, and various
ways to modify how fine the line is.
But since that one is specifically about the difficulty of
distinguishing or separating or navigating between the two
sides, it still may not be what you're hoping for.

Can you snip signature lines, please?

Post by jinhyun
Well, google results show that the phrase you give (and David
gives), the sound of which is quite pleasant, is nonetheless
actually less idiomatic than the 'toe the line' version.

Jinhyun, I have encouraged a custom around here of people
actually quoting their Google search strings and result
numbers, hopefully in a clear format, rather than just waving
their hands and saying that the numbers imply thus-and-so. We
don't quote as many numbers as we did for a while, because of
technical errors that crept in, so you may not have seen much of
this.

Post by jinhyun
So, maybe it still isn't
what we're looking for.

My remarks about the various ways it could be stated was a
word-to-the-wise about how any Googling should be conducted.
For example, "treads * fine line" gives a generous 30,000 hits,
treads the fine line
treads a very fine line
treads an awfully fine line
treads quite so fine a line
treads an incredibly fine line
treads a fine line
etc,
Any single search would have missed the others.
If you want to add "between," add "between".
"treads * fine line between" 21,700
"toes * fine line between" 84
"treads * line between" 52,000
"toes * line between" 10,900
That last one appears to be the case you are talking about,
which some people here doubt exists. 10,000+ is a sizeable
result. But I haven't looked very hard at the results, which I
suggest you do. Sometimes there's an alternative explanation.
I notice that removing "fine" turns up the line also being
delicate,
imperceptible, thin, same, unsteady, etc.

After you've done all the heavy lifting, I thought I'd add the in-
depth results of my searches. I used specific variants of the same
theme, and I think you'll agree that a clear winner emerges:

"tread a fine line between" - 23,200
"tread the fine line between" - 31,800
"tread a line between" - 15,600
"tread the line between" - 11,300
"trod a fine line between" - 383
"trod the fine line between" - 122
"trod the line between" - 238
"trod a line between" - 28
"toed the fine line between" - 4
"toed the line between" - 1,420
"toed a fine line between" - 20
"toed a line between" - 33
"toe the fine line between" - 170
"toe the line between" - 9,420
"toe a fine line between" - 76
"toe a line between" - 30
"toad the wet sprocket" - 625,000
"toad a wet sprocket" - 1

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Donna Richoux
If you want to add "between," add "between".
"treads * fine line between" 21,700 "toes * fine line between"
84

"tows * fine line between" 2

Post by Donna Richoux
"treads * line between" 52,000 "toes * line between"
10,900

"tows * line between" 127

Of course, I'm not asserting that any of the "tows" examples are
acceptable English. Actually, I haven't yet seen any of the 10,900 that
I would count as acceptable English, but perhaps I haven't hit
"Next" often enough.

An interesting example of something that was found by my second search is:

"A Mistaken Minority with a Wonder Bread Identity Tows the Thin Line
Between Art, Pornography and Living." That gives us a two-dimensional
line to match the multidimensional wine that was also among the results.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by jinhyun

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by jinhyun
Hi. I invite members to come up with variant expressions for 'toe the
'Hollywood Squares toes the line between racy and informative' where
it seems to strike a balance between two alternatives or 'Picassso
toed the line between genius and madness' where it seems to mean walk
on the edge of two more or less incompatible but bordering states of
being. The expression has such a low google count that I fear using it
may cause confusion. Also no dictionaries online or offline (in my
possession) list it. The best I can think of are 'walk the middle
ground' and 'thread the edge' for the Picasso example; but neither
really appeals to me. Thanks.

You appear to be proposing mixtures of several

Yeah, that's how the phrase has originated no doubt. But while it
hasn't really caught on, it's purported meaning is often in need of
being expresed.
. . .
You're probably speaking of the dictionary meaning of 'toe the line'
meaning to follow rules, be politically correct etc. Yeah, that has
nothing to do with the 'toe the line between' phrase

Post by Don Phillipson
I suggest
any set of "variants" will add muddle rather than clarity.

Not sure what you're getting at here.We simply want variant but more
idiomatic ways of saying what 'toe the line between' means. Clarity is
not the issue.

If "clarity is not the issue" I do not see how we can say
" its purported meaning is often in need of being expresed."
(NB here ITS not IT'S.) I recognize that we use language
for private expression as well as public communication.
But the first question was about what a phrase "seems to mean."

[jinhyun]

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by jinhyun

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by jinhyun
Hi. I invite members to come up with variant expressions for 'toe the
'Hollywood Squares toes the line between racy and informative' where
it seems to strike a balance between two alternatives or 'Picassso
toed the line between genius and madness' where it seems to mean walk
on the edge of two more or less incompatible but bordering states of
being. The expression has such a low google count that I fear using it
may cause confusion. Also no dictionaries online or offline (in my
possession) list it. The best I can think of are 'walk the middle
ground' and 'thread the edge' for the Picasso example; but neither
really appeals to me. Thanks.

You appear to be proposing mixtures of several

Yeah, that's how the phrase has originated no doubt. But while it
hasn't really caught on, it's purported meaning is often in need of
being expresed.
. . .
You're probably speaking of the dictionary meaning of 'toe the line'
meaning to follow rules, be politically correct etc. Yeah, that has
nothing to do with the 'toe the line between' phrase

Post by Don Phillipson
I suggest
any set of "variants" will add muddle rather than clarity.

Not sure what you're getting at here.We simply want variant but more
idiomatic ways of saying what 'toe the line between' means. Clarity is
not the issue.

If "clarity is not the issue" I do not see how we can say
" its purported meaning is often in need of being expresed."
(NB here ITS not IT'S.) I recognize that we use language
for private expression as well as public communication.
But the first question was about what a phrase "seems to mean."

Yeah. The 'it's' is a typo. I know apostrophes shouldn't be used with
the possesive form, only when you mean 'it is'
No, the phrase 'toe the line between' does mean something specific,
viz. what is more popularly and correctly meant by the expressions
'tread the line' and 'walk the line'. We aren't arguing what it means.
Here, my use of 'seems' is what has misled you. The 'seems' has no
business here. What we were trying to do was discover more idiomatic
alternatives for what the original meant. The expressions 'tread the
line' and 'walk the line' are, we've since discovered, the
alternatives we were looking for. Indeed, the version wih 'toe' seems
to have been derived from these, particularly the 'tread' version by
repacing 'tread' with 'toe', the connection being obvious(treading
with toes)

[Don Phillipson]

Post by jinhyun

Post by jinhyun
Not sure what you're getting at here.We simply want variant but more
idiomatic ways of saying what 'toe the line between' means. Clarity is
not the issue.

. . .

No, the phrase 'toe the line between' does mean something specific,
viz. what is more popularly and correctly meant by the expressions
'tread the line' and 'walk the line'. We aren't arguing what it means.
Here, my use of 'seems' is what has misled you. The 'seems' has no
business here. What we were trying to do was discover more idiomatic
alternatives for what the original meant. The expressions 'tread the
line' and 'walk the line' are, we've since discovered, the
alternatives we were looking for. Indeed, the version wih 'toe' seems
to have been derived from these, particularly the 'tread' version by
repacing 'tread' with 'toe', the connection being obvious(treading
with toes)

If your principal theme was that "clarity is not the issue"
I'd say you have demonstrated this abundantly.

[TakenEvent]

Post by jinhyun

Post by Don Phillipson

Post by jinhyun
Hi. I invite members to come up with variant expressions for 'toe the
'Hollywood Squares toes the line between racy and informative' where
it seems to strike a balance between two alternatives or 'Picassso
toed the line between genius and madness' where it seems to mean walk
on the edge of two more or less incompatible but bordering states of
being. The expression has such a low google count that I fear using it
may cause confusion. Also no dictionaries online or offline (in my
possession) list it. The best I can think of are 'walk the middle
ground' and 'thread the edge' for the Picasso example; but neither
really appeals to me. Thanks.

You appear to be proposing mixtures of several

Yeah, that's how the phrase has originated no doubt. But while it
hasn't really caught on, it's purported meaning is often in need of
being expresed. But I can't think of any other more idiomatic
expression or expressions which fit the bill -- hence the topic.

Post by Don Phillipson
The supposed near relationship between genius and
madness is usually traceable to a couplet of John
"Great wits are sure to madness near allied,
And thin partitions do their bounds divide."
This appears in his satire Absalom and Achitophel,
formerly famous and part of the core literary
curriculum for 150+ years.

Somehow, I think that it might be possible to trace it to deeper
antiquity. It's such a common old idea, and grounded in fact besides.

Post by Don Phillipson
Thus the etymologically correct line that people toe
has nothing to do with any supposed line demarcating
zones of difference. But current speech so muddles
and mixes these various phrases as to obscure both
their origins and their supposed meaning. >

You're probably speaking of the dictionary meaning of 'toe the line'
meaning to follow rules, be politically correct etc. Yeah, that has
nothing to do with the 'toe the line between' phrase

[...]

"Toe the line between" is a bastardization of any number of other
expressions. Try "walk", "tread", or "straddle" instead of "toe". "Toe the
line between" is nonsensical.

[Donna Richoux]

Post by TakenEvent
"Toe the line between" is a bastardization of any number of other
expressions. Try "walk", "tread", or "straddle" instead of "toe". "Toe the
line between" is nonsensical.

It may have a bastard origin, and you may dislike it, but I think it's
going too far to say it is "nonsensical" -- without sense, without
meaning? The meaning looks pretty obvious in these oldest hits from the
Usenet archive:

Group: rec.models.rockets
...I really appreciate the care with which Countdown has tried
to toe the line between blatant commercialism and informative posts.
Sep 5 1994 by Dale Harris

Group: alt.beer
... That's Frankenmuth's dilema. They seem to be trying to toe the line
between mass- market sales popularity ...
Jan 11 1994 by Dave Romas

Group: alt.shenanigans
Another great book, which seems to kind of toe the line between
shenaniganery and pranksterism, is _Buffo!_ Amazing Tales of Political
Pranks and Anarchic Buffoonery ...
Dec 13 1993 by a.stranger

Maybe by nonsense you mean that it does not derive etymologically from
some actual events or things, but etymology is different from use and
meaning.

It doesn't turn up in the old (19th c.) collections. Evan, can you look
for "toe the line between" in Proquest, please?

[TakenEvent]

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by TakenEvent
"Toe the line between" is a bastardization of any number of other
expressions. Try "walk", "tread", or "straddle" instead of "toe". "Toe the
line between" is nonsensical.

It may have a bastard origin, and you may dislike it, but I think it's
going too far to say it is "nonsensical" -- without sense, without
meaning? The meaning looks pretty obvious in these oldest hits from the

The metaphor doesn't make sense. That's all I meant. Obviously the people
who have used it have invested some meaning in it, but on its face, the
expression makes no sense. It's somewhat entertaining that the examples are
from alt.beer and alt. shenanigans, but humor aside, I'd say that the first
example should be "walk..." or "tread the fine line..." and the other two
should read "straddle". The meaning of the expression using "walk" or
"tread" would be that one is trying to keep something positive (say,
informative posts) from going too far toward becoming something negative
(say, blatant commercialism). "Straddle...", I think, can mean the same
thing, but also can be used to mean "a little bit of both, without going so
far as to become one or the other", as in "straddles the line between genius
and madman".

"Toe the line" implies that one is ready and rarin' to go (or fight) and
will keep coming back for more. So "toeing the line between" makes no sense
unless one is familiar with the "walk, tread, straddle" variants and is
intelligent enough to extrapolate the intended meaning. I could accept
"tiptoeing the line between", but even though MWCD says "toe" can mean
"tiptoe", I've never heard it used that way, and I don't think the examples
I've seen of "toe the line between" were trying to convey anything of the
sort.

Post by Donna Richoux
Group: rec.models.rockets
...I really appreciate the care with which Countdown has tried
to toe the line between blatant commercialism and informative posts.
Sep 5 1994 by Dale Harris
Group: alt.beer
... That's Frankenmuth's dilema. They seem to be trying to toe the line
between mass- market sales popularity ...
Jan 11 1994 by Dave Romas
Group: alt.shenanigans
Another great book, which seems to kind of toe the line between
shenaniganery and pranksterism, is _Buffo!_ Amazing Tales of Political
Pranks and Anarchic Buffoonery ...
Dec 13 1993 by a.stranger
Maybe by nonsense you mean that it does not derive etymologically from
some actual events or things, but etymology is different from use and
meaning.

[...]

That's true, but my opinion is that people have mixed up their idioms to
form an expression that, for the most part, already has a certain meaning.

[CDB]

TakenEvent wrote:
[...]

Post by TakenEvent
"Toe the line" implies that one is ready and rarin' to go (or
fight) and will keep coming back for more.

You're not the only one to have said this; I find it surprising,
because to me the phrase means "obey the rules" or "conform to
policy". Fratrats on double secret probation toe the line.
Communists toe the Party line.
[...]

[TakenEvent]

Post by CDB
[...]

Post by TakenEvent
"Toe the line" implies that one is ready and rarin' to go (or
fight) and will keep coming back for more.

You're not the only one to have said this; I find it surprising,
because to me the phrase means "obey the rules" or "conform to
policy". Fratrats on double secret probation toe the line.
Communists toe the Party line.
[...]

Well, yes, it has come to mean that, but even so, that only reinforces my
position that "toe the line between" is hooey. I think "toe the line" comes
from the same origin as "up to scratch", wherein a boxer would have to "toe
the line" at the beginning of the round, sort of like the batter in the box.
I've also read that an early boxing format consisted of two fighters with
their feet on their respective "scratch" marks would try to force each other
off their mark.

[CDB]

Post by TakenEvent

Post by CDB
[...]

Post by TakenEvent
"Toe the line" implies that one is ready and rarin' to go (or
fight) and will keep coming back for more.

You're not the only one to have said this; I find it surprising,
because to me the phrase means "obey the rules" or "conform to
policy". Fratrats on double secret probation toe the line.
Communists toe the Party line.
[...]

Well, yes, it has come to mean that,

You made me look it up. Merriam-Webster and COED, the only ones I
checked at OneLook, give only that meaning; on account of which I
suspect it to be the older one.

Post by TakenEvent
but even so, that only
reinforces my position that "toe the line between" is hooey.

No argument.

Post by TakenEvent
I think "toe the line" comes from the same origin as "up to
scratch",
wherein a boxer would have to "toe the line" at the beginning of
the round, sort of like the batter in the box. I've also read that
an early boxing format consisted of two fighters with their feet on
their respective "scratch" marks would try to force each other off
their mark.

That would no doubt be the source of the other meaning. The two
meanings are somewhat antagonistic to each other; I suppose that, if
one of them is to be skunked* out of existence, it will be the one I
favour.

*Speaking of that word: I wonder how many of the otherpondians who use
it blithely in an academic context have had the RL experience. If you
suffer a direct hit, the physiological effect is intense to the point
of brief intoxication. And the sequelae are even less fun (adj.).

[TakenEvent]

Post by CDB

Post by TakenEvent

Post by CDB
[...]

Post by TakenEvent
"Toe the line" implies that one is ready and rarin' to go (or
fight) and will keep coming back for more.

You're not the only one to have said this; I find it surprising,
because to me the phrase means "obey the rules" or "conform to
policy". Fratrats on double secret probation toe the line.
Communists toe the Party line.
[...]

Well, yes, it has come to mean that,

You made me look it up. Merriam-Webster and COED, the only ones I
checked at OneLook, give only that meaning; on account of which I
suspect it to be the older one.

Post by TakenEvent
but even so, that only
reinforces my position that "toe the line between" is hooey.

No argument.

Post by TakenEvent
I think "toe the line" comes from the same origin as "up to
scratch",
wherein a boxer would have to "toe the line" at the beginning of
the round, sort of like the batter in the box. I've also read that
an early boxing format consisted of two fighters with their feet on
their respective "scratch" marks would try to force each other off
their mark.

That would no doubt be the source of the other meaning. The two
meanings are somewhat antagonistic to each other; I suppose that, if
one of them is to be skunked* out of existence, it will be the one I
favour.

I've gleaned, by way of Google, that there is no consensus on the origin of
"toe the line". I've come across suspected origins that vary by quite a
bit, including Parlaiment members being kept apart by two lines separated by
the length of two swords (which seems silly--who's willing to take up arms
but not cross a line? And which sword?), starting lines for footraces,
toeing the mark in a prizefight, and various "nautical" or military
origins.

http://verbmall.blogspot.com/ (this is a local guy who has an English usage
radio program Tuesday mornings)
http://www.darrenbarefoot.com/archives/2004/05/toe-the-line.html
http://www.grammartips.homestead.com/toetheline.html
http://www.history.navy.mil/trivia/trivia03.htm
http://www.bigbadbookblog.com/2006/07/20/sound-alikes-that-make-you-sound-a-stupid/


[...]

[jinhyun]

Post by TakenEvent
The metaphor doesn't make sense. That's all I meant. Obviously the people
who have used it have invested some meaning in it, but on its face, the
expression makes no sense. It's somewhat entertaining that the examples are
from alt.beer and alt. shenanigans, but humor aside, I'd say that the first
example should be "walk..." or "tread the fine line..." and the other two
should read "straddle". The meaning of the expression using "walk" or
"tread" would be that one is trying to keep something positive (say,
informative posts) from going too far toward becoming something negative
(say, blatant commercialism). "Straddle...", I think, can mean the same
thing, but also can be used to mean "a little bit of both, without going so
far as to become one or the other", as in "straddles the line between genius
and madman".
"Toe the line" implies that one is ready and rarin' to go (or fight) and
will keep coming back for more. So "toeing the line between" makes no sense
unless one is familiar with the "walk, tread, straddle" variants and is
intelligent enough to extrapolate the intended meaning. I could accept
"tiptoeing the line between", but even though MWCD says "toe" can mean
"tiptoe", I've never heard it used that way, and I don't think the examples
I've seen of "toe the line between" were trying to convey anything of the
sort.

Post by Donna Richoux
Group: rec.models.rockets
...I really appreciate the care with which Countdown has tried
to toe the line between blatant commercialism and informative posts.
Sep 5 1994 by Dale Harris
Group: alt.beer
... That's Frankenmuth's dilema. They seem to be trying to toe the line
between mass- market sales popularity ...
Jan 11 1994 by Dave Romas
Group: alt.shenanigans
Another great book, which seems to kind of toe the line between
shenaniganery and pranksterism, is _Buffo!_ Amazing Tales of Political
Pranks and Anarchic Buffoonery ...
Dec 13 1993 by a.stranger
Maybe by nonsense you mean that it does not derive etymologically from
some actual events or things, but etymology is different from use and
meaning.

[...]
That's true, but my opinion is that people have mixed up their idioms to
form an expression that, for the most part, already has a certain meaning.- Hide quoted text -

No. I don't think this is an expession at all but a cliched metaphor.
'Toe' does mean tiptoe and that makes it understandable. What makes it
confusing is that there already is a 'toe the line' which is an actual
expression viz. you can't say what it means from the words -- you've
to look it up. 'tread the line' too isn't an expression which is why
dictionaries don't record it. The 'straddle the line' version has a
very nice sound, by the bye, and again isn't an expression, i.e you
can tell what it means without looking it up. For someone like
Picasso, 'tread' is too circumspect a word and he was anything but
circumspect. So, 'Picasso straddled the line between genius and
madness' actually sounds better -- suggesting he carried off the
balancing act with aplomb. So, thanks.

[TakenEvent]

Post by jinhyun

Post by TakenEvent
The metaphor doesn't make sense. That's all I meant. Obviously the people
who have used it have invested some meaning in it, but on its face, the
expression makes no sense. It's somewhat entertaining that the examples are
from alt.beer and alt. shenanigans, but humor aside, I'd say that the first
example should be "walk..." or "tread the fine line..." and the other two
should read "straddle". The meaning of the expression using "walk" or
"tread" would be that one is trying to keep something positive (say,
informative posts) from going too far toward becoming something negative
(say, blatant commercialism). "Straddle...", I think, can mean the same
thing, but also can be used to mean "a little bit of both, without going so
far as to become one or the other", as in "straddles the line between genius
and madman".
"Toe the line" implies that one is ready and rarin' to go (or fight) and
will keep coming back for more. So "toeing the line between" makes no sense
unless one is familiar with the "walk, tread, straddle" variants and is
intelligent enough to extrapolate the intended meaning. I could accept
"tiptoeing the line between", but even though MWCD says "toe" can mean
"tiptoe", I've never heard it used that way, and I don't think the examples
I've seen of "toe the line between" were trying to convey anything of the
sort.

Post by Donna Richoux
Group: rec.models.rockets
...I really appreciate the care with which Countdown has tried
to toe the line between blatant commercialism and informative posts.
Sep 5 1994 by Dale Harris
Group: alt.beer
... That's Frankenmuth's dilema. They seem to be trying to toe the line
between mass- market sales popularity ...
Jan 11 1994 by Dave Romas
Group: alt.shenanigans
Another great book, which seems to kind of toe the line between
shenaniganery and pranksterism, is _Buffo!_ Amazing Tales of Political
Pranks and Anarchic Buffoonery ...
Dec 13 1993 by a.stranger
Maybe by nonsense you mean that it does not derive etymologically from
some actual events or things, but etymology is different from use and
meaning.

[...]
That's true, but my opinion is that people have mixed up their idioms to
form an expression that, for the most part, already has a certain

meaning.- Hide quoted text -

Post by jinhyun
No. I don't think this is an expession at all but a cliched metaphor.
'Toe' does mean tiptoe and that makes it understandable.

I've never heard anyone use "toe" to mean "tiptoe". And like I said, none
of the instances of "toe the line between" I've seen would indicate that the
author meant "tiptoe".

Post by jinhyun
What makes it
confusing is that there already is a 'toe the line' which is an actual
expression viz. you can't say what it means from the words -- you've
to look it up.

That's not true. It's a literal phrase, wherein a boxer would have to have
his toes on the line/scratch/mark at the beginning of a fight, or for the
fight's duration, depending. You'll see the same thing in foot races, where
the runners' feet must be on (or behind?) the starting line. Same with
baseball players who are required to be in the batter's box.

Post by jinhyun
'tread the line' too isn't an expression which is why
dictionaries don't record it. The 'straddle the line' version has a
very nice sound, by the bye, and again isn't an expression, i.e you
can tell what it means without looking it up.

[...]

They may not fit the definition of an *idiom*, but they're definitely
expressions.

[jinhyun]

Post by TakenEvent

Post by jinhyun
What makes it
confusing is that there already is a 'toe the line' which is an actual
expression viz. you can't say what it means from the words -- you've
to look it up.

That's not true. It's a literal phrase, wherein a boxer would have to have
his toes on the line/scratch/mark at the beginning of a fight, or for the
fight's duration, depending. You'll see the same thing in foot races, where
the runners' feet must be on (or behind?) the starting line. Same with
baseball players who are required to be in the batter's box.

No, that's the literal meaning; but it's seldom used literally. The
figurative meaning is either following the rules or be poised to do
something. My point is that if you encountered 'toe the line' for the
first time, you wouldn't be able to figure out what it meant without
looking it up or having someone familiar with it put you wise to it.
That makes it an idiom and hence dictionary-worthy; whereas 'tread the
line' and 'straddle the line' are not idioms -- you can figure out
what thy mean as long as you know what 'straddle' 'tread' and 'line'
mean. Hence they don't put them up in dictionaries, which is quite
sound policy.

Post by TakenEvent

Post by jinhyun
'tread the line' too isn't an expression which is why
dictionaries don't record it. The 'straddle the line' version has a
very nice sound, by the bye, and again isn't an expression, i.e you
can tell what it means without looking it up.

[...]
They may not fit the definition of an *idiom*, but they're definitely
expressions.-

Yeah, 'idioms' is the right word; I knew that but since 'idiom' is
used for so many other things I wondered. My use of 'expression' in
the above is
with a very ad-hoc meaning (under which circumstances 'expressions'
should have been within quotes) Sorry.

[TakenEvent]

Post by jinhyun

Post by TakenEvent

Post by jinhyun
What makes it
confusing is that there already is a 'toe the line' which is an actual
expression viz. you can't say what it means from the words -- you've
to look it up.

That's not true. It's a literal phrase, wherein a boxer would have to have
his toes on the line/scratch/mark at the beginning of a fight, or for the
fight's duration, depending. You'll see the same thing in foot races, where
the runners' feet must be on (or behind?) the starting line. Same with
baseball players who are required to be in the batter's box.

No, that's the literal meaning; but it's seldom used literally. The
figurative meaning is either following the rules or be poised to do
something. My point is that if you encountered 'toe the line' for the
first time, you wouldn't be able to figure out what it meant without
looking it up or having someone familiar with it put you wise to it.
That makes it an idiom and hence dictionary-worthy; whereas 'tread the
line' and 'straddle the line' are not idioms -- you can figure out
what thy mean as long as you know what 'straddle' 'tread' and 'line'
mean. Hence they don't put them up in dictionaries, which is quite
sound policy.

If one knows what "toe" means, the expression is just as understandable as
if one had used any of the other words, since they are all figurative
expressions more often than not. Toe, straddle, and tread are all in the
dictionary. "The line" is figurative in all of the variants of "...the line
between" discussed, as, of course, there is no "line" between any of those
things except figuratively. Inclusion in a dictionary does not an idiom
make; conversely, non-inclusion in a dictionary does not a non-idiom make.
A good case could be made to the effect that they are all idioms since they
are most often used figuratively.

Post by jinhyun

Post by TakenEvent

Post by jinhyun
'tread the line' too isn't an expression which is why
dictionaries don't record it. The 'straddle the line' version has a
very nice sound, by the bye, and again isn't an expression, i.e you
can tell what it means without looking it up.

[...]
They may not fit the definition of an *idiom*, but they're definitely
expressions.-

Yeah, 'idioms' is the right word; I knew that but since 'idiom' is
used for so many other things I wondered. My use of 'expression' in
the above is
with a very ad-hoc meaning (under which circumstances 'expressions'
should have been within quotes) Sorry.

"Expression" is a looser term than "idiom". I think the argument could be
made that all idioms are expressions, but not all expressions are idioms.

idiom \i-de-em\ noun (1588)
[...]
2 : an expression in the usage of a language that is peculiar to itself
either grammatically (as no, it wasn't me) or in having a meaning that
cannot be derived from the conjoined meanings of its elements (as Monday
week for the Monday a week after next Monday)
[...]
(C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

[Peter Moylan]

Post by TakenEvent
"Toe the line" implies that one is ready and rarin' to go (or fight)
and will keep coming back for more.

Is that a new meaning? To me it doesn't mean anything except "obey orders".

Post by TakenEvent
So "toeing the line between" makes no sense unless one is familiar
with the "walk, tread, straddle" variants and is intelligent enough
to extrapolate the intended meaning.

This part I agree with. To anyone not familiar with the traditional
expressions, the examples quoted by Donna make no sense. Knowing the
meaning of things like "straddle the line", I can extrapolate and
deciding that "toe the line between ..." refers to standing as close as
possible to a boundary without overstepping it.

At least, that was my initial interpretation. Now that I've re-read the
examples, I suspect that they really mean using one's toes to draw a
line in the sand. They're still a bit confusing, to be frank, but at
least with that interpretation they make some sort of sense.

[dcw]

Post by Don Phillipson
You appear to be proposing mixtures of several
1: Toe the line = stand up prepared to fight.
2: Draw a line = demarcate, ...
3: Walk the line = patrol, ...

4: None of the above. "Tread the line" is the phrase you want.

David
-

[n***@verizon.net]

Post by jinhyun
Hi. I invite members to come up with variant expressions for 'toe the
'Hollywood Squares toes the line between racy and informative' where
it seems to strike a balance between two alternatives or 'Picassso
toed the line between genius and madness' where it seems to mean walk
on the edge of two more or less incompatible but bordering states of
being.

I'd say "walks a fine line". I definitely wouldn't say "toe the line".
As others have already said, that phrase has a traditional meaning
that isn't at all the same as what you want it to mean.

[jinhyun]

Post by n***@verizon.net

Post by jinhyun
Hi. I invite members to come up with variant expressions for 'toe the
'Hollywood Squares toes the line between racy and informative' where
it seems to strike a balance between two alternatives or 'Picassso
toed the line between genius and madness' where it seems to mean walk
on the edge of two more or less incompatible but bordering states of
being.

I'd say "walks a fine line". I definitely wouldn't say "toe the line".
As others have already said, that phrase has a traditional meaning
that isn't at all the same as what you want it to mean.

Yeah. "walks the line between" is a winner, about ten times as popular
as the "toe" version and listed in dictionaries besides, meaning the
same as the 'toe the line between" version. Thanks. I think the 'toe'
version came about perhaps to indicate how fine the metaphorical line
was, requiring you to tread it with your toes. The meaning which I
give isn't what I want it to mean: it does mean that in some circles.
Google has upto 10,000 hits for "toe the line between", all meaning
'walk the line between'

Somehow though, 'toe/thread the line' seem better as they connote the
fineness of the line and the delicateness of the performance of
maintaining a balance between the opposing themes of the sides on
opposite sides of the 'line' better than the 'walk' version. 'Walk'
is too casual and leisurely for me. But that's the idiomatic phrase.

[Mike M]

Post by jinhyun

Post by n***@verizon.net

Post by jinhyun
Hi. I invite members to come up with variant expressions for 'toe the
'Hollywood Squares toes the line between racy and informative' where
it seems to strike a balance between two alternatives or 'Picassso
toed the line between genius and madness' where it seems to mean walk
on the edge of two more or less incompatible but bordering states of
being.

I'd say "walks a fine line". I definitely wouldn't say "toe the line".
As others have already said, that phrase has a traditional meaning
that isn't at all the same as what you want it to mean.

Yeah. "walks the line between" is a winner, about ten times as popular
as the "toe" version and listed in dictionaries besides, meaning the
same as the 'toe the line between" version. Thanks. I think the 'toe'
version came about perhaps to indicate how fine the metaphorical line
was, requiring you to tread it with your toes. The meaning which I
give isn't what I want it to mean: it does mean that in some circles.
Google has upto 10,000 hits for "toe the line between", all meaning
'walk the line between'
Somehow though, 'toe/thread the line' seem better as they connote the
fineness of the line and the delicateness of the performance of
maintaining a balance between the opposing themes of the sides on
opposite sides of the 'line' better than the 'walk' version. 'Walk'
is too casual and leisurely for me. But that's the idiomatic phrase.

But isn't the AmE "walk the line" the same as the BrE "toe the line" ?
i.e. to obey the rules?

cf. Johnny Cash:

I keep a close watch on this heart of mine
I keep my eyes wide open all the time
I keep the ends out for the tie that binds
Because you're mine, I walk the line

("Keep the ends out" ???)

"Walking a *fine* line" is a different idiom entirely.

Mike M

[j***@yahoo.com]

Post by Mike M

Post by jinhyun

Post by n***@verizon.net

Post by jinhyun
Hi. I invite members to come up with variant expressions for 'toe the
'Hollywood Squares toes the line between racy and informative' where
it seems to strike a balance between two alternatives or 'Picassso
toed the line between genius and madness' where it seems to mean walk
on the edge of two more or less incompatible but bordering states of
being.

I'd say "walks a fine line". I definitely wouldn't say "toe the line".
As others have already said, that phrase has a traditional meaning
that isn't at all the same as what you want it to mean.

Yeah. "walks the line between" is a winner, about ten times as popular
as the "toe" version and listed in dictionaries besides, meaning the
same as the 'toe the line between" version. Thanks. I think the 'toe'
version came about perhaps to indicate how fine the metaphorical line
was, requiring you to tread it with your toes. The meaning which I
give isn't what I want it to mean: it does mean that in some circles.
Google has upto 10,000 hits for "toe the line between", all meaning
'walk the line between'
Somehow though, 'toe/thread the line' seem better as they connote the
fineness of the line and the delicateness of the performance of
maintaining a balance between the opposing themes of the sides on
opposite sides of the 'line' better than the 'walk' version. 'Walk'
is too casual and leisurely for me. But that's the idiomatic phrase.

There are other options--walks a tightrope between, balances between,
teeters between (when you want to emphasize precariousness), etc.

Post by Mike M
But isn't the AmE "walk the line" the same as the BrE "toe the line" ?
i.e. to obey the rules?

It's a rare expression. As an American, I'm not sure I've ever heard
it outside that song. I'm more familiar with "toe the line" (often
misspelled "tow the line", though some here have preferred "tow"--I
hope Charles is doing well.)

Post by Mike M
I keep a close watch on this heart of mine
I keep my eyes wide open all the time
I keep the ends out for the tie that binds
Because you're mine, I walk the line
("Keep the ends out" ???)

He maintains the ends of his mind/heart/soul (imagined as a rope but
not as the line in the next, um, line) available for his attachment to
June?

It's a bit of a step down from Yeats.

Post by Mike M
"Walking a *fine* line" is a different idiom entirely.

"Walks the line between" works for me.

--
Jerry Friedman

[jinhyun]

Post by j***@yahoo.com

Post by jinhyun
Somehow though, 'toe/thread the line' seem better as they connote the
fineness of the line and the delicateness of the performance of
maintaining a balance between the opposing themes of the sides on
opposite sides of the 'line' better than the 'walk' version. 'Walk'
is too casual and leisurely for me. But that's the idiomatic phrase.

There are other options--walks a tightrope between, balances between,
teeters between (when you want to emphasize precariousness), etc.

Good options. Keep them coming.Sadly, all the other expressions which
aren't really expressions at all but perfectly understandable
metaphors are all becoming hackneyed because of overuse. How about
'reconciles' as in 'Hollywood squares smartly reconciles racy and
informative' or 'Picasso seamlessly reconciled genius and madness in
his complex personality'?

[Mike M]

Post by jinhyun
Good options. Keep them coming.Sadly, all the other expressions which
aren't really expressions at all but perfectly understandable
metaphors are all becoming hackneyed because of overuse. How about
'reconciles' as in 'Hollywood squares smartly reconciles racy and
informative' or 'Picasso seamlessly reconciled genius and madness in
his complex personality'?

No, I think that has a slightly different meaning. "Walking the (fine)
line" between two courses contains the idea of not having to choose -
possibly avoiding both, as in the similar phrase "sitting on the
fence". "Reconciling" (as in the examples above) implies - to me, at
any rate - the actual amalgamation of two options into some sort of
synthesis. Related concepts, but not the same.

Mike M

[jinhyun]

Post by Mike M

Post by jinhyun
Good options. Keep them coming.Sadly, all the other expressions which
aren't really expressions at all but perfectly understandable
metaphors are all becoming hackneyed because of overuse. How about
'reconciles' as in 'Hollywood squares smartly reconciles racy and
informative' or 'Picasso seamlessly reconciled genius and madness in
his complex personality'?

No, I think that has a slightly different meaning. "Walking the (fine)
line" between two courses contains the idea of not having to choose -
possibly avoiding both, as in the similar phrase "sitting on the
fence". "Reconciling" (as in the examples above) implies - to me, at
any rate - the actual amalgamation of two options into some sort of
synthesis. Related concepts, but not the same.
Mike M

Yeah, the synthesis is what I was going for. That's evident in the
Picasso example. But you're right. 'Picasso walked the line between
genius and madness' suggests that he was neither mad nor a genius but
something inbetween.'Picasso seamlessly reconciled genius and madness
in his complex personality', on the other hand, suggests that he was a
bit of both -- an amalgam of genius and madness. People rarely mean
one and not the other. But the distinction is a useful one to know for
careful users of the language. Boy, this is my most productive topic
ever! Not only am I discovering a number of expressions but subtle
nuances of meaning between them are unravevelling themselves. Keep
them coming, people!