may/might gave given

[Mike Spencer]

Seen in the news:

A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.

My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't
know whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's
speaking.

I would have written:

She might have given up her career had she received...

where she recognizes that she did not give it up.

I've seen this usage elsewhere and find it grating.

Any comment from a.u.e gurus? Rules about the subjunctive?

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Mike Spencer
A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't
know whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's
speaking.

I agree. Until the part after the last comma I thought that she was
wondering if her action had led to ruining her career or not.

Post by Mike Spencer
She might have given up her career had she received...

Absolutely.

[Mike Spencer]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Mike Spencer
A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't
know whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's
speaking.

I agree. Until the part after the last comma I thought that she was
wondering if her action had led to ruining her career or not.

Post by Mike Spencer
She might have given up her career had she received...

Absolutely.

So I'm not alone. :-)

Tnx to multiple people for replies.

[Ross Clark]

Post by Mike Spencer
A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't
know whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's
speaking.
She might have given up her career had she received...
where she recognizes that she did not give it up.
I've seen this usage elsewhere and find it grating.
Any comment from a.u.e gurus? Rules about the subjunctive?

I'm not a guru. And I'll avoid the word "subjunctive", which leads to
other confusions. But I've been interested in this since I first noticed
it in the 1980s.

(1) "May" and "might" are near-synonyms in today's English:
He may have a gun. He might have a gun.
Call this present uncertainty. Speaker doesn't know for sure whether he
has or not.

You can put this uncertainty in the past using "have":
He may have had a gun. He might have had a gun.

I guess you could call this past uncertainty, though strictly it's a
past situation about which we are (presently) uncertain.

(2) But the "might have" that's a problem is a different thing, which
involves alternative time-tracks or possible worlds:

The South might have won the Civil War (if...)

This also works grammatically with "could/should/would have", but all
depend on our knowledge that, in fact, they didn't. "Counter-factual"
is another useful term.

For you (and me) this just will not work with "may". We only read "may
have" as past-uncertain. But a generational shift has taken place.
Probably nobody under 50 has this restriction any more; they're not even
aware that the restriction exists for older people. What I said above
about "may" and "might" is the explanation -- they are pretty much
interchangeable, so either should work in the counter-factual.

[Phil]

Post by Mike Spencer
A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't
know whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's
speaking.
She might have given up her career had she received...
where she recognizes that she did not give it up.
I've seen this usage elsewhere and find it grating.
Any comment from a.u.e gurus? Rules about the subjunctive?

Grates with me every time. Just last night on a TV programme called 'Ten
Mistakes That Sank The Titanic', an expert was telling us how the
Titanic "may not have sunk" had Smith not ordered the engines briefly
stopped.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Phil

Post by Mike Spencer
A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't know
whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's speaking.
She might have given up her career had she received...
where she recognizes that she did not give it up.
I've seen this usage elsewhere and find it grating.
Any comment from a.u.e gurus? Rules about the subjunctive?

Grates with me every time. Just last night on a TV programme called 'Ten
Mistakes That Sank The Titanic', an expert was telling us how the
Titanic "may not have sunk" had Smith not ordered the engines briefly
stopped.

Sounds fine to me. Just used to it I suppose.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Phil

Post by Mike Spencer
A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't know
whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's speaking.
She might have given up her career had she received...
where she recognizes that she did not give it up.
I've seen this usage elsewhere and find it grating.
Any comment from a.u.e gurus? Rules about the subjunctive?

Grates with me every time. Just last night on a TV programme called 'Ten
Mistakes That Sank The Titanic', an expert was telling us how the
Titanic "may not have sunk" had Smith not ordered the engines briefly
stopped.

Sounds fine to me. Just used to it I suppose.

No doubt. I wonder whether the same thing will happen with
"can" and "could". At this point, we can say the /Titanic/
could have stayed afloat but not that it can have stayed
afloat but in fifty years?

[Snidely]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Phil

Post by Mike Spencer
A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't know
whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's speaking.
She might have given up her career had she received...
where she recognizes that she did not give it up.
I've seen this usage elsewhere and find it grating.
Any comment from a.u.e gurus? Rules about the subjunctive?

Grates with me every time. Just last night on a TV programme called 'Ten
Mistakes That Sank The Titanic', an expert was telling us how the
Titanic "may not have sunk" had Smith not ordered the engines briefly
stopped.

Sounds fine to me. Just used to it I suppose.

No doubt. I wonder whether the same thing will happen with
"can" and "could". At this point, we can say the /Titanic/
could have stayed afloat but not that it can have stayed
afloat but in fifty years?

I think I need punctuation in front of that "but" ... perhaps an
emdash.

/dps "&emdash; not a small barrel"

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Snidely

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Phil

Post by Mike Spencer
A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't know
whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's speaking.
She might have given up her career had she received...
where she recognizes that she did not give it up.
I've seen this usage elsewhere and find it grating.
Any comment from a.u.e gurus? Rules about the subjunctive?

Grates with me every time. Just last night on a TV programme called 'Ten
Mistakes That Sank The Titanic', an expert was telling us how the
Titanic "may not have sunk" had Smith not ordered the engines briefly
stopped.

Sounds fine to me. Just used to it I suppose.

No doubt. I wonder whether the same thing will happen with
"can" and "could". At this point, we can say the /Titanic/
could have stayed afloat but not that it can have stayed
afloat but in fifty years?

I think I need punctuation in front of that "but" ... perhaps an
emdash.

How about... an ellipsis? Or maybe just a new sentence.

(Somewhere there's a gremlin with the punctuation I put
in that sentence.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Hibou]

Post by Mike Spencer
A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't
know whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's
speaking.
She might have given up her career had she received...
where she recognizes that she did not give it up.

I agree.

Post by Mike Spencer
I've seen this usage elsewhere and find it grating.
Any comment from a.u.e gurus? Rules about the subjunctive?

Not from me.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Mike Spencer
A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't
know whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's
speaking.
She might have given up her career had she received...
where she recognizes that she did not give it up.
I've seen this usage elsewhere and find it grating.
Any comment from a.u.e gurus? Rules about the subjunctive?

For me it's a simple matter of tense. Present-tense "may" refers to the
time she was talking on CNN. Past-tense "might" refers to the past time
when she got the autism diagnosis.

I've read Ross's response, and I agree with most of it. When the focus
is on uncertainty, "may" and "might" become interchangeable in the present
tense. But only in the present tense. "May" doesn't work in the past.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Peter Moylan
"May" doesn't work in the
past.

Not even "he may have eaten the cake, but I'm not sure".

Or is that present perfect?

After thinking it a few times, it seems odd.

"He may have at one time been a mason".

Dunno.

[Hibou]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
"May" doesn't work in the past.

Not even "he may have eaten the cake, but I'm not sure".
Or is that present perfect?
After thinking it a few times, it seems odd.
"He may have at one time been a mason".
Dunno.

I think in those sentences you are speaking in the present about a past
event.

I can't see the cake. He may have eaten it.
He might have eaten the cake, but he didn't. It's still in the larder.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Mike Spencer
A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't
know whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's
speaking.
She might have given up her career had she received...
where she recognizes that she did not give it up.
I've seen this usage elsewhere and find it grating.
Any comment from a.u.e gurus? Rules about the subjunctive?

Like others, I don't like it, but as Ross implied, the cause is
probably lost.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Mike Spencer
A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't
know whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's
speaking.
She might have given up her career had she received...
where she recognizes that she did not give it up.
I've seen this usage elsewhere and find it grating.
Any comment from a.u.e gurus? Rules about the subjunctive?

Like others, I don't like it, but as Ross implied, the cause is
probably lost.

My impression is that the subjunctive died long in the UK (except after
"lest", where it survives, and also in fixed phrases like "if I were
you"), but that it is in better health in the USA.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
My impression is that the subjunctive died long in the UK (except after
"lest", where it survives, and also in fixed phrases like "if I were
you"), but that it is in better health in the USA.

In Danish the subjunctive has disappeared - or merged with past tense.

[Ross Clark]

Post by jerryfriedman

    A Supreme Court justice revealed on CNN she may have given up her
    career in law to help raise her daughter, who has autism, had she
    received an earlier diagnosis.
My reading of that is the (nonsensical) assertion that she doesn't
know whether or not she has given up her career at the time she's
speaking.
   She might have given up her career had she received...
where she recognizes that she did not give it up.
I've seen this usage elsewhere and find it grating.
Any comment from a.u.e gurus?  Rules about the subjunctive?

Like others, I don't like it, but as Ross implied, the cause is
probably lost.

Actually I meant to suggest that the immediate cause was just
simplifying the grammar a teensy bit by making "may" and "might"
grammatically equivalent. This simplification obliterates a distinction
which seems important to us, but which the younger people seemingly were
not aware of. What amazes me in all this is that I somehow internalized
this difference, which takes some effort to explain, without, as far as
I can recall, ever being formally taught it.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Ross Clark
not aware of. What amazes me in all this is that I somehow internalized
this difference, which takes some effort to explain, without, as far as
I can recall, ever being formally taught it.

We learn a lot of language just by hearing/seeing it many times. That's
the only method available for babies.

[Hibou]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Ross Clark
not aware of. What amazes me in all this is that I somehow internalized
this difference, which takes some effort to explain, without, as far as
I can recall, ever being formally taught it.

We learn a lot of language just by hearing/seeing it many times. That's
the only method available for babies.

It's marvellous, commonplace, and utterly dependent on the quality of
the source material.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Hibou

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
We learn a lot of language just by hearing/seeing it many times. That's
the only method available for babies.

It's marvellous, commonplace, and utterly dependent on the quality of
the source material.

Not really. They learn what they hear. The *quality* depends on the
quality of the source - and the people evaluating it.

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Wed, 18 Sep 2024 10:46:48 +0200

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Hibou

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
We learn a lot of language just by hearing/seeing it many times. That's
the only method available for babies.

It's marvellous, commonplace, and utterly dependent on the quality of
the source material.

Not really. They learn what they hear. The *quality* depends on the
quality of the source - and the people evaluating it.

This, in spades. (c. English idiom)

What we really need is people able to discern what is Really True(tm) and
"exciting shit!" (possibly also TM).

OMG! </irony>

[Stefan Ram]

Post by Mike Spencer
Any comment from a.u.e gurus? Rules about the subjunctive?

Generally, it's recommended to use "might" in any context
where the past tense is a good fit or when you're referencing
a hypothetical or super unlikely scenario.

This topic has been hashed out here before. For instance, I dug up:

|You can find examples going back at least to the 1980s. When I discuss
|this in classes, I find that hardly anyone under 50 sees anything wrong
|with it. I would say for the majority, now, "may" and "might" are simply
|stylistic variants, or perhaps have some shade of semantic difference,
|but the syntactic differences are gone.
'-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ross on 2015-11-19 20:44:57+00:00 in alt.usage.english,
Subject: past-tense "may"?

. You can also find this example from 1973 in the literature:

|At first it was believed that the boy may have survived in a
|pocket of air, but when divers reached him yesterday it became
|obvious that he drowned soon after the trawler went over
The Guardian, 30 Oct. 1973.