Discussion:
Deadly Nightshade
(too old to reply)
Ed Cryer
2024-10-05 17:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Belladonna
It acquired its alter name in the middle ages, when women used it
because of how it dilates the pupils, making them more sexy.
Beautiful Lady.

Pagan.
In Latin "paganus" meant "villager" or "peasant". That's what Cicero
would have understood. But early Christians used it as a depreciatory
term for those who stuck to polytheistic or pre-Christian beliefs; the
gods of Old Rome.

Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in meaning?
Do people know other examples?

Ed
Stefan Ram
2024-10-05 18:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in meaning?
In linguistics, when a word goes south and starts to bum people
out over time, that's called pejoration or semantic degradation.
Stefan Ram
2024-10-09 18:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ed Cryer
Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in meaning?
In linguistics, when a word goes south and starts to bum people
out over time, that's called pejoration or semantic degradation.
Back in the day, we were vibing to this tune called "Aisle of
Plenty", and I could've sworn I heard something like,

|Let the deadly nightshield grow!

. It totally tripped me out, man. I was picturing some gnarly sci-fi
scene where this massive shield, as big as Earth or even larger,
was blocking out the sun's rays from our planet - hence the "night-
shield" vibe. It was like something straight outta a Bradbury trip!
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-10-09 19:12:20 UTC
Permalink
On 9 Oct 2024 18:24:42 GMT
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ed Cryer
Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in meaning?
In linguistics, when a word goes south and starts to bum people
out over time, that's called pejoration or semantic degradation.
Back in the day, we were vibing to this tune called "Aisle of
Plenty", and I could've sworn I heard something like,
|Let the deadly nightshield grow!
. It totally tripped me out, man. I was picturing some gnarly sci-fi
scene where this massive shield, as big as Earth or even larger,
was blocking out the sun's rays from our planet - hence the "night-
shield" vibe. It was like something straight outta a Bradbury trip!
English, she like is totally what you wanna maek it, y'know wat I mean?

i.e.
Please keep it old-style for us ancient types.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
jerryfriedman
2024-10-09 19:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ed Cryer
Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in meaning?
In linguistics, when a word goes south and starts to bum people
out over time, that's called pejoration or semantic degradation.
..
Post by Stefan Ram
|Let the deadly nightshield grow!
"See the deadly nightshade grow," as you undoubtedly know
now.

Just now I realized that "Tess co-operates" is a reference
to Tesco. (I did get "safe way" and assumed "fine fare" was
another supermarket.) And right after just now I finally
looked up the completely mysterious "Peek Freans", which
turn out to be biscuits (in the British sense).

--
Jerry Friedman
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-10-09 19:29:52 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 19:13:07 +0000
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Stefan Ram
Post by Ed Cryer
Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in meaning?
In linguistics, when a word goes south and starts to bum people
out over time, that's called pejoration or semantic degradation.
..
Post by Stefan Ram
|Let the deadly nightshield grow!
"See the deadly nightshade grow," as you undoubtedly know
now.
Just now I realized that "Tess co-operates" is a reference
& the co-op?
Post by jerryfriedman
to Tesco. (I did get "safe way" and assumed "fine fare" was
another supermarket.) And right after just now I finally
looked up the completely mysterious "Peek Freans", which
turn out to be biscuits (in the British sense).
Other Brit bickie brands (probably all owned by big boys now)
are Jaffa Cakes, Jammy Dodgers (Burtons) Waggon Wheels, erm choccy>
fingers,[digresses] Mars, Milky Way, Twix, Milky Bar, Smarties... erm some
other sticky stuff... oh the past, it's so far away, yet so (almost)
memorable. Lovely? Jubblies.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
Steve Hayes
2024-10-10 04:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
other sticky stuff... oh the past, it's so far away, yet so (almost)
memorable. Lovely? Jubblies.
Any special significance to "Lovely? Jubblies"?

What does it mean?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Chris Elvidge
2024-10-10 10:05:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
other sticky stuff... oh the past, it's so far away, yet so (almost)
memorable. Lovely? Jubblies.
Any special significance to "Lovely? Jubblies"?
What does it mean?
1) Reference to Del Trotter in 'Only Fools and Horses'
2) (Sexist) reference to ladies chesticles (boobs)

Aside to 1 - Trotters Independent Traders = acronym TITS
--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT SAY "SPRINGFIELD" JUST TO GET APPLAUSE
jerryfriedman
2024-10-10 13:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
other sticky stuff... oh the past, it's so far away, yet so (almost)
memorable. Lovely? Jubblies.
Any special significance to "Lovely? Jubblies"?
What does it mean?
1) Reference to Del Trotter in 'Only Fools and Horses'
In more detail, the OED says

"/colloquial./ Expressing delight or affirmation,
frequently in response to a success or an anticipated
success: excellent, jolly good.

"The phrase is frequently used (as interjection and
adjective) to suggest typically English (esp. London)
attitudes and behaviour, or questionable business
dealings like those of the South Londoner, Del Boy
Trotter (see the etymology)."

Said etymology is

"after /lubbly Jubbly,/ a 1950s advertising slogan for
Jubbly, an orange-flavoured soft drink; coined by John
Sullivan (1946–2011) in his BBC television series /Only
Fools & Horses/ (1981–91, followed by Christmas specials
in 1996 and 2001–3) as a characteristic expression of
Derek ‘Del Boy’ Trotter, a Peckham market trader."
Post by Chris Elvidge
2) (Sexist) reference to ladies chesticles (boobs)
Aside to 1 - Trotters Independent Traders = acronym TITS
Aside aside: Also used for successes of the English
tennis player Paul Jubb.

--
Jerry Friedman
lar3ryca
2024-10-11 05:27:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
other sticky stuff... oh the past, it's so far away, yet so (almost)
memorable. Lovely? Jubblies.
Any special significance to "Lovely? Jubblies"?
What does it mean?
1) Reference to Del Trotter in 'Only Fools and Horses'
In more detail, the OED says
"/colloquial./ Expressing delight or affirmation,
frequently in response to a success or an anticipated
success: excellent, jolly good.
"The phrase is frequently used (as interjection and
adjective) to suggest typically English (esp. London)
attitudes and behaviour, or questionable business
dealings like those of the South Londoner, Del Boy
Trotter (see the etymology)."
Said etymology is
"after /lubbly Jubbly,/ a 1950s advertising slogan for
Jubbly, an orange-flavoured soft drink; coined by John
Ah! So that's what it is!

It reminded me of an ice cream shop in Surrey, BC, named "mama Mia's. It
was run by an Indian family, and they had quite a lot of interesting ice
cream flavours, including kulfi, curry, and even durian. The one that
cracked me up was called 'Cherry Jubbly'.
Post by jerryfriedman
Sullivan (1946–2011) in his BBC television series /Only
Fools & Horses/ (1981–91, followed by Christmas specials
in 1996 and 2001–3) as a characteristic expression of
Derek ‘Del Boy’ Trotter, a Peckham market trader."
Post by Chris Elvidge
2) (Sexist) reference to ladies chesticles (boobs)
Aside to 1 - Trotters Independent Traders = acronym TITS
Aside aside: Also used for successes of the English
tennis player Paul Jubb.
--
Jerry Friedman
--
Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature.
Steve Hayes
2024-10-11 00:00:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Elvidge
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
other sticky stuff... oh the past, it's so far away, yet so (almost)
memorable. Lovely? Jubblies.
Any special significance to "Lovely? Jubblies"?
What does it mean?
1) Reference to Del Trotter in 'Only Fools and Horses'
2) (Sexist) reference to ladies chesticles (boobs)
Aside to 1 - Trotters Independent Traders = acronym TITS
Thanks.

Reason for asking is that I came across it recently on Facebook, where
a bloke does a series of videos on bad driving, and ends each one by
saying "Lovely jubbly, sound as a pound," which makes it seem like a
farewell. He seems to speak with a northern accent, but I can't tell
any more, English accents have changed so much in the last 50 years.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Silvano
2024-10-05 18:37:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Belladonna
It acquired its alter name in the middle ages, when women used it
because of how it dilates the pupils, making them more sexy.
Beautiful Lady.
Pagan.
In Latin "paganus" meant "villager" or "peasant". That's what Cicero
would have understood. But early Christians used it as a depreciatory
term for those who stuck to polytheistic or pre-Christian beliefs; the
gods of Old Rome.
Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in meaning?
I don't know it, but I'm sure there is one.
Post by Ed Cryer
Do people know other examples?
Sorry, at the moment I can remember only some examples in Italian and
German.
I stopped reading sci.lang after a very short time because there was
nothing but crosspostings to AUE.
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-10-05 18:39:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in meaning?
Do people know other examples?
Ed
You can take all the words for psychological problems or lack of
intelligence (with a vague definition).

In Danish the expression "pendulum words" are used about words who get
the opposite meaning. I don't know English examples, but a Danish
expression is "godt 100" - literally "good 100" - which means a little
more than 100. Within the last 20 years it became clear that some Danes
thought that it meant a little less than 100. So today one has to be
careful when using that expression.
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
HenHanna
2024-10-05 22:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Belladonna
It acquired its alter name in the middle ages, when women used it
because of how it dilates the pupils, making them more sexy.
Beautiful Lady.


Pagan.
In Latin "paganus" meant "villager" or "peasant". That's what Cicero
would have understood. But early Christians used it as a depreciatory
term for those who stuck to polytheistic or pre-Christian beliefs; the
gods of Old Rome.
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Ed Cryer
Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in meaning?
Do people know other examples? Ed
You can take all the words for psychological problems or lack of
intelligence (with a vague definition).
In Danish the expression "pendulum words" are used about words who get
the opposite meaning. I don't know English examples, but a Danish
expression is "godt 100" - literally "good 100" - which means a little
more than 100. Within the last 20 years it became clear that some Danes
thought that it meant a little less than 100. So today one has to be
careful when using that expression.
Girl, Nice, neat, gay, Negro, ...

it'd be Hard to find words with NO semantic shift?



the one kind of semantic shift i really enjoyed
learning about is [Grammaticization]



____________________________

Silly are the goddy tawdry maudlin for they shall christgeewhiz bow down
before him: bedead old men, priest and prester, babeling a
pitterpatternoster: no word is still the word, but, a loafward has
become lord.

Ronald Suffield, “The Tenth Beatitude”




Pejoration is the process by which a word’s meaning worsens or
degenerates, coming to represent something less favorable than it
originally did. Most of the words in Suffield’s poem have undergone
pejoration.




Word Old Meaning
affection “emotion”
deer “animal”
forest “countryside”
girl “a young person”
starve “to die”


Word Old Meaning
undertaker “entrepreneur”
doctor “teacher”


Word Old Meaning
enthusiasm “abuse”
guts (“courage”) “entrails”
pastor “shepherd”
pluck (“spirit”) “act of tugging”
queen “woman”



Word Old Meaning
crafty “strong”
cunning “knowing”
egregious “distinguished, standing out from the herd”
harlot “a boy”
notorious “famous”
obsequious “flexible”
vulgar “popular”


Word Old Meaning
counterfeit “an original”
garble “to sort out”
manufacture “to make by hand”


lusty means sex-obsessed today???
Ruud Harmsen
2024-10-06 11:03:21 UTC
Permalink
Sat, 5 Oct 2024 20:39:19 +0200: Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Ed Cryer
Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in meaning?
Do people know other examples?
Ed
You can take all the words for psychological problems or lack of
intelligence (with a vague definition).
In Danish the expression "pendulum words" are used about words who get
the opposite meaning. I don't know English examples, but a Danish
expression is "godt 100" - literally "good 100" - which means a little
more than 100.
Goed 100, een goede 100 mensen. In Dutch too.
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Within the last 20 years it became clear that some Danes
thought that it meant a little less than 100. So today one has to be
careful when using that expression.
Krap 10 (Dutch), knapp 10 (German).
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com
Bertel Lund Hansen
2024-10-06 11:41:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Krap 10 (Dutch), knapp 10 (German).
Knap 10 (Danish).
--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-10-06 15:05:51 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 6 Oct 2024 13:41:24 +0200
Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Krap 10 (Dutch), knapp 10 (German).
Knap 10 (Danish).
In English, we have Crap (rubbish, poo) and, rarer, Knap (to hone a flint
to a point). So no crosssover there.
10 is 'ten'. HTH.
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
bertietaylor
2024-10-05 21:57:29 UTC
Permalink
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
Steve Hayes
2024-10-06 05:59:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
That depends on who's using the words, and for what. Context makes a
big difference.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
bertietaylor
2024-10-06 06:12:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
That depends on who's using the words, and for what. Context makes a
big difference.
Is Arindam (the greatest genius of all time and sole god among lotsa
devils) a pagan or heathen or both as per his hostiles?

We his cyberdoggies are keen to know.

Woof-woof

Bertietaylor
Steve Hayes
2024-10-06 13:23:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by bertietaylor
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
That depends on who's using the words, and for what. Context makes a
big difference.
Is Arindam (the greatest genius of all time and sole god among lotsa
devils) a pagan or heathen or both as per his hostiles?
Impossible to answer without a potted biography. He could be a Pathan
for all I know.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Kerr-Mudd, John
2024-10-06 15:13:33 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 06 Oct 2024 15:23:29 +0200
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
That depends on who's using the words, and for what. Context makes a
big difference.
Is Arindam (the greatest genius of all time and sole god among lotsa
devils) a pagan or heathen or both as per his hostiles?
Impossible to answer without a potted biography. He could be a Pathan
for all I know.
Seems to me be a dog worshipper.

(FU just to AUE, a place for posting anti-einstein "theories" (read
inertial mis-understandings)
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.
bertietaylor
2024-10-06 21:00:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
On Sun, 06 Oct 2024 15:23:29 +0200
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
That depends on who's using the words, and for what. Context makes a
big difference.
Is Arindam (the greatest genius of all time and sole god among lotsa
devils) a pagan or heathen or both as per his hostiles?
Impossible to answer without a potted biography. He could be a Pathan
for all I know.
Seems to me be a dog worshipper.
Does that make him a pagan or a heathen?
Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
(FU just to AUE, a place for posting anti-einstein "theories" (read
inertial mis-understandings)
bertietaylor
2024-10-06 21:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
That depends on who's using the words, and for what. Context makes a
big difference.
Is Arindam (the greatest genius of all time and sole god among lotsa
devils) a pagan or heathen or both as per his hostiles?
Impossible to answer without a potted biography. He could be a Pathan
for all I know.
Are Pathans pagan or heathen?

Arindam is a satya-yuga person. That is, he resides in the 100% good
state unlike the present general state k'li yuga which generally is less
than 25% good.

When someone has no use for evil and sin is that person a pagan or a
heathen?

Can the great theological minds of the Occident provide an answer?
Steve Hayes
2024-10-07 02:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by bertietaylor
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
That depends on who's using the words, and for what. Context makes a
big difference.
Is Arindam (the greatest genius of all time and sole god among lotsa
devils) a pagan or heathen or both as per his hostiles?
Impossible to answer without a potted biography. He could be a Pathan
for all I know.
Are Pathans pagan or heathen?
Who's using the word?
Post by bertietaylor
Arindam is a satya-yuga person. That is, he resides in the 100% good
state unlike the present general state k'li yuga which generally is less
than 25% good.
Date & place of birth, place of upbringing, education, current
religion?
Post by bertietaylor
When someone has no use for evil and sin is that person a pagan or a
heathen?
Can the great theological minds of the Occident provide an answer?
Again, it depends on who's using the word. Some of the great
theological minds of the Occident deprecate the use of either word.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
bertietaylor
2024-10-07 10:47:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
That depends on who's using the words, and for what. Context makes a
big difference.
Is Arindam (the greatest genius of all time and sole god among lotsa
devils) a pagan or heathen or both as per his hostiles?
Impossible to answer without a potted biography. He could be a Pathan
for all I know.
Are Pathans pagan or heathen?
Who's using the word?
Post by bertietaylor
Arindam is a satya-yuga person. That is, he resides in the 100% good
state unlike the present general state k'li yuga which generally is less
than 25% good.
Date & place of birth, place of upbringing, education, current
religion?
Irrelevant.
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by bertietaylor
When someone has no use for evil and sin is that person a pagan or a
heathen?
Can the great theological minds of the Occident provide an answer?
Again, it depends on who's using the word. Some of the great
theological minds of the Occident deprecate the use of either word.
No great thelogical minds around, then.
Ed Cryer
2024-10-07 07:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
I've always thought Shakespeare gave a good, running description for
"heathen".


FIRST WITCH
When shall we three meet again?
In thunder, lightning, or in rain?
SECOND WITCH
When the hurly-burly’s done,
When the battle’s lost and won.
THIRD WITCH
That will be ere the set of sun.
FIRST WITCH
Where the place?
SECOND WITCH
Upon the heath. *****************
THIRD WITCH
There t
Steve Hayes
2024-10-08 02:51:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
I've always thought Shakespeare gave a good, running description for
"heathen".
FIRST WITCH
When shall we three meet again?
In thunder, lightning, or in rain?
SECOND WITCH
When the hurly-burly’s done,
When the battle’s lost and won.
THIRD WITCH
That will be ere the set of sun.
FIRST WITCH
Where the place?
SECOND WITCH
Upon the heath. *****************
THIRD WITCH
There to meet with Macbeth.
Possibly.

As I understand it, "pagani" was Roman military slang for "civilians",
rather like the BrE usage "punters" (which in SAfE means "people who
bet, mostly on horse races").

As Fox describes it, it was adopted by Christians in the Roman empire
for non-Christians, those who had not enlisted to fight in the
spiritual battle that shaped the Christians' worldview.

Pagani, for the most part, were unbelievers *within* the Roman empire
and therefore "civilised" (one could have an interesting discussion
about the difference between "civilisation" and "urbanisation").

But in the north of Europe Christianity began to spread beyond the
pale, beyond the boundary of the shrinking Roman empire, initially
mostly among people who spoke Germanic languages, and the Germanic
term "heathen" came to be used by Christians for unbelievers who were
regarded by those living within the civilised Roman empire as
"barbarians".

As time passed, for English-speaking Christians the two terms became
synonymous. I'm not sure what happened to them among speakers of other
Germanic languages, but here we are concerned primarily with English
usage.

With the advent of modernity in Western Europe, shaped by the
Renaissance, the Reformation and the Enlightenment, the concept of
"religion" and "religions" developed --- the book to read is:

Harrison, Peter. 1990. "Religion" and the religions in the
English Enlightenment. Cambridge: Cambridge
University Press.
ISBN: 0-521-38530-X
Dewey: 291.0942
The origin of the modern idea of religion can
be traced to the Enlightenment. This study
shows how the concepts "religion" and "the
religions" arose out of controversies in 17th
& 18th-century England. The birth of "the
religions", conceived to be sets of beliefs
and practices, enabled the establishment of a
new science of religion in which the various
"religions" were studied and impartially
compared. Dr Harrison thus offers a detailed
historical picture of the emergence of
comparative religion as an academic
discipline.

And some scholars of religion developed the term "monotheism" and
began to use the term "pagan" to refer to those who did not belong to
religions they regarded as "monotheistic" -- mainly Judaism,
Christianity and Islam.

In the 19th and early 20th centuries the term "pagan" beganto be used
by and of the cultured despisers of Christianity -- secular humanists
etc. And the term "heathen" began to be used by some Christians for
the UNcultured despisers of Christianity, the hoi polloi in Great
Britain who didn't go to church because they didn't see the point.

The second half of the second half of the 20th century saw the rise of
neopaganism as a kind of post-Christian phenomenon, those who revived
or adapted some of the pre-Christian religions, or invented new ones.
For them, "pagan" became a positive term, whereas hitherto it had been
a negative term, catergorising people by the religion they *didn't*
practise, and for neopagans it came to mean a religion they *did*
practise. So "paganism" became a thing, and not the mere absence of a
thing.

This is why the meaning of words like "pagan" and "heathen" depends on
when and where they were uttered, by whom, and referring to whom or
what.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Ed Cryer
2024-10-08 10:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
Post by Ed Cryer
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
I've always thought Shakespeare gave a good, running description for
"heathen".
FIRST WITCH
When shall we three meet again?
In thunder, lightning, or in rain?
SECOND WITCH
When the hurly-burly’s done,
When the battle’s lost and won.
THIRD WITCH
That will be ere the set of sun.
FIRST WITCH
Where the place?
SECOND WITCH
Upon the heath. *****************
THIRD WITCH
There to meet with Macbeth.
Possibly.
As I understand it, "pagani" was Roman military slang for "civilians",
rather like the BrE usage "punters" (which in SAfE means "people who
bet, mostly on horse races").
As Fox describes it, it was adopted by Christians in the Roman empire
for non-Christians, those who had not enlisted to fight in the
spiritual battle that shaped the Christians' worldview.
Pagani, for the most part, were unbelievers *within* the Roman empire
and therefore "civilised" (one could have an interesting discussion
about the difference between "civilisation" and "urbanisation").
But in the north of Europe Christianity began to spread beyond the
pale, beyond the boundary of the shrinking Roman empire, initially
mostly among people who spoke Germanic languages, and the Germanic
term "heathen" came to be used by Christians for unbelievers who were
regarded by those living within the civilised Roman empire as
"barbarians".
As time passed, for English-speaking Christians the two terms became
synonymous. I'm not sure what happened to them among speakers of other
Germanic languages, but here we are concerned primarily with English
usage.
With the advent of modernity in Western Europe, shaped by the
Renaissance, the Reformation and the Enlightenment, the concept of
Harrison, Peter. 1990. "Religion" and the religions in the
English Enlightenment. Cambridge: Cambridge
University Press.
ISBN: 0-521-38530-X
Dewey: 291.0942
The origin of the modern idea of religion can
be traced to the Enlightenment. This study
shows how the concepts "religion" and "the
religions" arose out of controversies in 17th
& 18th-century England. The birth of "the
religions", conceived to be sets of beliefs
and practices, enabled the establishment of a
new science of religion in which the various
"religions" were studied and impartially
compared. Dr Harrison thus offers a detailed
historical picture of the emergence of
comparative religion as an academic
discipline.
And some scholars of religion developed the term "monotheism" and
began to use the term "pagan" to refer to those who did not belong to
religions they regarded as "monotheistic" -- mainly Judaism,
Christianity and Islam.
In the 19th and early 20th centuries the term "pagan" beganto be used
by and of the cultured despisers of Christianity -- secular humanists
etc. And the term "heathen" began to be used by some Christians for
the UNcultured despisers of Christianity, the hoi polloi in Great
Britain who didn't go to church because they didn't see the point.
The second half of the second half of the 20th century saw the rise of
neopaganism as a kind of post-Christian phenomenon, those who revived
or adapted some of the pre-Christian religions, or invented new ones.
For them, "pagan" became a positive term, whereas hitherto it had been
a negative term, catergorising people by the religion they *didn't*
practise, and for neopagans it came to mean a religion they *did*
practise. So "paganism" became a thing, and not the mere absence of a
thing.
This is why the meaning of words like "pagan" and "heathen" depends on
when and where they were uttered, by whom, and referring to whom or
what.
A lot of words have their fashions, like clothes or music.
"Heretic" or "Infidel" or ..... (long list omitted).
It seems we humans are excellent at finding pejorative terms for the enemy.

Another thing we do is apply tribal names to whole countries.
The Romans found a small tribe called "Graeci" and renamed the whole of
Hellas and its colonies.
Saracens were originally a small nomadic
jerryfriedman
2024-10-08 13:26:05 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 8 Oct 2024 2:51:25 +0000, Steve Hayes wrote:

[snip interesting stuff]
Post by Steve Hayes
With the advent of modernity in Western Europe, shaped by the
Renaissance, the Reformation and the Enlightenment, the concept of
Harrison, Peter. 1990. "Religion" and the religions in the
English Enlightenment. Cambridge: Cambridge
University Press.
ISBN: 0-521-38530-X
Dewey: 291.0942
The origin of the modern idea of religion can
be traced to the Enlightenment. This study
shows how the concepts "religion" and "the
religions" arose out of controversies in 17th
& 18th-century England. The birth of "the
religions", conceived to be sets of beliefs
and practices, enabled the establishment of a
new science of religion in which the various
"religions" were studied and impartially
compared. Dr Harrison thus offers a detailed
historical picture of the emergence of
comparative religion as an academic
discipline.
..

I hope he explains why these quotations don't show
pre-Enlightenment currency of those concepts.

a1400 (a1325)
In þat siquar was in þat tun Men of alkin religioun,
Of al maner of nacioun.

("In that period there were in that town men of all kinds
of religion, of all manner of nations." I think.)

Cursor Mundi (Vespasian MS.) 18944 (Middle English
Dictionary)

c1450 (?c1400)
Leef maister, which is þe beste religioun?
translation of Honorius Augustodunensis, Elucidarium
(1909) 32 (Middle English Dictionary)

1560
They neyther allure nor compelle any man vnto their
Religion.
J. Daus, translation of J. Sleidane, Commentaries
f. xcijv

1593
The Church of Rome, they say,..did almost out of all
religions take whatsoeuer had any faire & gorgeous shew.
R. Hooker, Of Lawes of Ecclesiasticall Politie
iv. xi. 189

--
Jerry Friedman
Madhu
2024-10-09 01:11:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by jerryfriedman
[snip interesting stuff]
Post by Steve Hayes
With the advent of modernity in Western Europe, shaped by the
Renaissance, the Reformation and the Enlightenment, the concept of
Harrison, Peter. 1990. "Religion" and the religions in the
English Enlightenment. Cambridge: Cambridge University
Press. ISBN: 0-521-38530-X Dewey: 291.0942
The origin of the modern idea of religion can be traced to the
Enlightenment. This study shows how the concepts "religion" and "the
religions" arose out of controversies in 17th & 18th-century
England. The birth of "the religions", conceived to be sets of
beliefs and practices, enabled the establishment of a new science of
religion in which the various "religions" were studied and
impartially compared. Dr Harrison thus offers a detailed historical
picture of the emergence of comparative religion as an academic
discipline.
..
I hope he explains why these quotations don't show
pre-Enlightenment currency of those concepts.
(trying to speak for Dr. Harrison), perhaps the other religions were not
considered first class citizens until the invention of Comparative
Religion
Post by jerryfriedman
a1400 (a1325) In þat siquar was in þat tun Men of alkin religioun, Of
al maner of nacioun.
("In that period there were in that town men of all kinds of religion,
of all manner of nations." I think.)
Cursor Mundi (Vespasian MS.) 18944 (Middle English Dictionary)
c1450 (?c1400) Leef maister, which is þe beste religioun? translation
of Honorius Augustodunensis, Elucidarium (1909) 32 (Middle English
Dictionary)
1560 They neyther allure nor compelle any man vnto their Religion.
J. Daus, translation of J. Sleidane, Commentaries f. xcijv
1593 The Church of Rome, they say,..did almost out of all religions
take whatsoeuer had any faire & gorgeous shew. R. Hooker, Of Lawes of
Ecclesiasticall Politie iv. xi. 189
Madhu
2024-10-09 01:05:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Hayes
This is why the meaning of words like "pagan" and "heathen" depends on
when and where they were uttered, by whom, and referring to whom or
what.
By the time of the reformation, based on the KJV I think we can see
"heathen" already had the same connotations of "goyim" (or
"uncircumcised", in Ezek., Deut,) even if it was borrowed from a
european context
Steve Hayes
2024-10-09 04:02:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madhu
Post by Steve Hayes
This is why the meaning of words like "pagan" and "heathen" depends on
when and where they were uttered, by whom, and referring to whom or
what.
By the time of the reformation, based on the KJV I think we can see
"heathen" already had the same connotations of "goyim" (or
"uncircumcised", in Ezek., Deut,) even if it was borrowed from a
european context
I think both terms probably had those connotations right from when
they first began to be used. I've heard Zulu-speaking Christians (ie
speaking English as a second language) refer to non-churchgoers as
"Gentiles".

And see the discussion of "punters" elsethread.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Ross Clark
2024-10-09 08:26:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madhu
Post by Steve Hayes
This is why the meaning of words like "pagan" and "heathen" depends on
when and where they were uttered, by whom, and referring to whom or
what.
By the time of the reformation, based on the KJV I think we can see
"heathen" already had the same connotations of "goyim" (or
"uncircumcised", in Ezek., Deut,) even if it was borrowed from a
european context
In fact the KJV uses "heathen" and "gentiles" and "nations" to translate
"goyim" (and "ethnoi" in the NT). I can't immediately see any rhyme or
reason to the choice.
Steve Hayes
2024-10-10 04:16:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ross Clark
Post by Madhu
Post by Steve Hayes
This is why the meaning of words like "pagan" and "heathen" depends on
when and where they were uttered, by whom, and referring to whom or
what.
By the time of the reformation, based on the KJV I think we can see
"heathen" already had the same connotations of "goyim" (or
"uncircumcised", in Ezek., Deut,) even if it was borrowed from a
european context
In fact the KJV uses "heathen" and "gentiles" and "nations" to translate
"goyim" (and "ethnoi" in the NT). I can't immediately see any rhyme or
reason to the choice.
The Jerusalem Bible opts for "pagans" in many of those instances,
perhaps because it gave more weight to the Vulgate.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Christian Weisgerber
2024-10-08 14:25:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
"Pagan" is borrowed from Latin--not from French, which has "païen"--
and "heathen" is Germanic. I can't think of any difference in
meaning. I don't think they carry different connotations, either.

If there is a difference in usage by neopagans, I wouldn't know.

The etymology of "heathen" is unclear. It could be connected to
"heath", the landscape, so it might parallel the formation of "pagan"
in some way.

Pfeifer's etymological dictionary suggests a rather fanciful origin:
A borrowing from Greek "tá éthnē" ('the peoples' > 'the heathens')
into Gothic as "haiþn-", from where it spread into West Germanic.
I have reservations. Where is the h- from? Pfeifer mentions "late
Greek aspiration". Anybody here know anything about that stage of
Greek? Does [h] just pop up there? In Wulfila's time, Gothic <ai>
was likely pronounced [ɛː], so the vowel quality matches, but why
a long vowel? This also creates an immediate problem, because Old
High German "heidan" and Old English "hǣþen" (with umlaut) point
to Germanic *[ai]. The idea seems to be that the borrowed word was
conflated with the "heath" word already in Gothic (haiþi), and then
it must have been calqued rather than borrowed into West Germanic.
It all feels strained.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
jerryfriedman
2024-10-08 16:21:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
"Pagan" is borrowed from Latin--not from French, which has "païen"--
and "heathen" is Germanic. I can't think of any difference in
meaning. I don't think they carry different connotations, either.
If there is a difference in usage by neopagans, I wouldn't know.
..

I believe I've heard one or two neopagans refer to
themselves as pagans, and one or two people who aren't
members of organized religions refer to themselves as
heathens.

Wikipedia says "Heathenry" is specifically Germanic
neopaganism, of which there are several varieties.

--
Jerry Friedman
jerryfriedman
2024-10-09 13:48:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by bertietaylor
What's the difference between "pagan" and "heathen"?
"Pagan" is borrowed from Latin--not from French, which has "païen"--
and "heathen" is Germanic. I can't think of any difference in
meaning. I don't think they carry different connotations, either.
..

Pre-Christian Greek and Roman civilization can be
called "pagan" but usually not "heathen", I believe.
For instance, the adult inhabitants of Dante's Limbo
are "virtuous pagans". (That includes some Muslims.)

--
Jerry Friedman
Steve Hayes
2024-10-06 05:52:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Belladonna
It acquired its alter name in the middle ages, when women used it
because of how it dilates the pupils, making them more sexy.
Beautiful Lady.
Pagan.
In Latin "paganus" meant "villager" or "peasant". That's what Cicero
would have understood. But early Christians used it as a depreciatory
term for those who stuck to polytheistic or pre-Christian beliefs; the
gods of Old Rome.
Pagan - origin of the term.
Source: Fox, "Christian & Pagans" 1987:30.
"In antiquity, pagans already owed a debt to Christians.
Christians first gave them their name, pagani... In everyday
use, it meant either a civilian or a rustic. Since the
sixteenth century the origin of the early Christians' usage
has been disputed, but of the two meanings, the former is the
likelier. Pagani were civilians who had not enlisted through
baptism as soldiers of Christ against the powers of Satan. By
its word for non-believers, Christian slang bore witness to
the heavenly battle which coloured Christians' view of life."
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Ruud Harmsen
2024-10-06 11:00:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Belladonna
It acquired its alter name in the middle ages, when women used it
because of how it dilates the pupils, making them more sexy.
Beautiful Lady.
Pagan.
In Latin "paganus" meant "villager" or "peasant". That's what Cicero
would have understood. But early Christians used it as a depreciatory
term for those who stuck to polytheistic or pre-Christian beliefs; the
gods of Old Rome.
Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in meaning?
A shift in meaning.
Post by Ed Cryer
Do people know other examples?
There are myriads. It happens all the time. Consult any etymology in
Wiktionary, for example.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com
guido wugi
2024-10-06 18:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ruud Harmsen
Post by Ed Cryer
Belladonna
It acquired its alter name in the middle ages, when women used it
because of how it dilates the pupils, making them more sexy.
Beautiful Lady.
Pagan.
In Latin "paganus" meant "villager" or "peasant". That's what Cicero
would have understood. But early Christians used it as a depreciatory
term for those who stuck to polytheistic or pre-Christian beliefs; the
gods of Old Rome.
Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in meaning?
A shift in meaning.
Post by Ed Cryer
Do people know other examples?
There are myriads. It happens all the time. Consult any etymology in
Wiktionary, for example.
And across languages, ex.:

E NL D
slim slim schlimm
weird worden werden
eerie erg arg
worry wurgen würgen
clean klein klein
small smal schmal
ask eisen heischen
eventually eventueel eventuell
leap lopen laufen
spring springen springen
die doden töten
draw dragen tragen
etc enz usw
--
guido wugi
Ruud Harmsen
2024-10-07 14:49:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by guido wugi
E NL D
slim slim schlimm
weird worden werden
Quite interesting. I would never have thought that.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/weird#Etymology
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wyrd#English
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/weorþan#Old_English
Post by guido wugi
eerie erg arg
worry wurgen würgen
clean klein klein
small smal schmal
ask eisen heischen
eventually eventueel eventuell
leap lopen laufen
spring springen springen
die doden töten
draw dragen tragen
etc enz usw
Yes.
--
Ruud Harmsen, https://rudhar.com
Christian Weisgerber
2024-10-10 19:53:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by guido wugi
E NL D
weird worden werden
That is misleading. Already in Proto-Germanic the noun from which
"weird" derives was distinct from the verb that is the source of
the Dutch/German verb and OE "weorþan".
Post by guido wugi
ask eisen heischen
The German verb picked up the h- by contamination from another verb,
"heißen" (cf. OE "hātan").
Post by guido wugi
leap lopen laufen
spring springen springen
Those German verbs already vary in meaning across German dialects.
E.g., you may have heard of Amish (Pennsylvania Dutch) "rumspringe",
which literally means "running around", because in Palatinate dialect
"springe" (springen) means 'run' and "laafe" (laufen) means 'walk'.
Post by guido wugi
die doden töten
No, the English verb, likely from Old Norse, is different from the
German/Dutch one. The German cognate for "die" is OHG touwen, which
didn't survive into Modern German. Conversely, Old English "dȳdan"
is cognate with "töten". Modern English "deaden" is likely a new
formation from the adjective "dead" + "-en".
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
HVS
2024-10-06 14:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ed Cryer
Belladonna
It acquired its alter name in the middle ages, when women used it
because of how it dilates the pupils, making them more sexy.
Beautiful Lady.
Pagan.
In Latin "paganus" meant "villager" or "peasant". That's what
Cicero would have understood. But early Christians used it as a
depreciatory term for those who stuck to polytheistic or
pre-Christian beliefs; the gods of Old Rome.
Is there a technical term for this way that words mutate in
meaning? Do people know other examples?
There are many popular "now here's a funny thing" books out there on
etymology which cover this. A promising one (that I haven't seen) might
be "The Accidental Dictionary" by Paul Anthony Jones (2016). Examples
from that -- taken from the description on the Guardian Bookshop site
-- include "buxom used to mean obedient"; "a cloud was a rock"; "nice
meant ignorant"; "glamour was magic", and so on.

I've only read reviews rather than the book itself, but it could be
useful -- 100 words in 224 pages, which gives more breathing space than
just another "today's meaning/old meaning" list.

[pet peeve time]

Most books of this sort -- which I suspect AUE readers often find under
the Christmas tree from well-meaning family and friends -- are aimed at
the easily bored, and seldom cite sources for their statements of fact,
often skating over most of the nuance or context of a word's evolution.

Take, for example, the statement that "Buxom used to mean obedient".
It can't be faulted on accuracy, but it's only part of the story, as
the word's meaning obviously didn't just jump from "obedient" to "full-
bosomed".

It took centuries to evolve from the "obedient, pliant" meaning (which
applied equally to men and women) to the current gender-specific sense
of "full-bosomed", by way of "submissive, humble, meek", to "gracious,
courteous, affable", on to "blithe, jolly", and then to "bright,
lively" and "full of health", vigorous", eventually reaching "plump and
comely" in the late C19, and finally becoming "full-bosomed" in the
second half of the C20.

Which makes a list that says not a lot more than "Buxom used to mean
obedient" rather thin stuff.

[end of pet peeve]
--
Cheers, Harvey
Steve Hayes
2024-10-06 17:51:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by HVS
[pet peeve time]
Most books of this sort -- which I suspect AUE readers often find under
the Christmas tree from well-meaning family and friends -- are aimed at
the easily bored, and seldom cite sources for their statements of fact,
often skating over most of the nuance or context of a word's evolution.
Take, for example, the statement that "Buxom used to mean obedient".
It can't be faulted on accuracy, but it's only part of the story, as
the word's meaning obviously didn't just jump from "obedient" to "full-
bosomed".
It took centuries to evolve from the "obedient, pliant" meaning (which
applied equally to men and women) to the current gender-specific sense
of "full-bosomed", by way of "submissive, humble, meek", to "gracious,
courteous, affable", on to "blithe, jolly", and then to "bright,
lively" and "full of health", vigorous", eventually reaching "plump and
comely" in the late C19, and finally becoming "full-bosomed" in the
second half of the C20.
And "glamour" still does mean magic in some contexts, and the
"prestige" is the equivalent of the punch line in a magic trick.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Peter Moylan
2024-10-08 21:53:38 UTC
Permalink
Each time I see the Subject of this thread I'm reminded of Dudley
Nightshade, the enemy of Crusader Rabbit.
--
Peter Moylan ***@pmoylan.org http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW
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