Somewheres

[Peter Moylan]

I have just encountered the word "somewheres" in my reading. (Although
not for the first time.) This word does not exist in Australian English.
I gather that it is used by some North Americans, possibly a minority.

I first met it from the supervisor of my Master's research. He was
Australian, but had spent some time in the US, and he married an
American. She was from one of the flyover states. Iowa, I think.

Easy question: if this is regional, what region?

Difficult question: is there a subtle difference in meaning between
"somewhere" and "somewheres"? Are there sentences where one word would
work but not the other?

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Peter Moylan
I have just encountered the word "somewheres" in my reading. (Although
not for the first time.) This word does not exist in Australian English.
I gather that it is used by some North Americans, possibly a minority.

I'm pretty sure it's a minority.

Post by Peter Moylan
I first met it from the supervisor of my Master's research. He was
Australian, but had spent some time in the US, and he married an
American. She was from one of the flyover states. Iowa, I think.
Easy question: if this is regional, what region?

Hard question, since you don't necessarily know what region
people are from, as Athel found out when searching for a native
Californian. I think of it as rural and maybe African American.

I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos. He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?) and the
Ivy League. He says it at about 0:23 in this interview.

https://ahf.nuclearmuseum.org/voices/oral-histories/stirling-auchincloss-colgates-interview/

Maybe he picked it up at the Los Alamos Ranch School.

Post by Peter Moylan
Difficult question: is there a subtle difference in meaning between
"somewhere" and "somewheres"? Are there sentences where one word would
work but not the other?

Easy question: No. It's an individual or regional difference, though
for some people the choice might depend on the social situation.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by jerryfriedman
I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos. He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?)

I have known the brand Colgate since I was a child. That makes me
conclude that it is known all over the world. Their toothpaste is found
in every supermarket and it occupies a not small section of the
toothpaste shelf. When my dentist offered me a free sample of
toothpaste, it was a Colgate product.

[occam]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos. He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?)

I have known the brand Colgate since I was a child. That makes me
conclude that it is known all over the world...

.. if that world was Denmark. The go-to brand in my childhood was
'Kolynos'. Judging by the result of my Google search - a lot of retro
B&W ads - Colgate did better than Kolynos.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Their toothpaste is found
in every supermarket and it occupies a not small section of the
toothpaste shelf. When my dentist offered me a free sample of
toothpaste, it was a Colgate product.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by occam

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos. He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?)

I have known the brand Colgate since I was a child. That makes me
conclude that it is known all over the world...

.. if that world was Denmark. The go-to brand in my childhood was
'Kolynos'. Judging by the result of my Google search - a lot of retro
B&W ads - Colgate did better than Kolynos.

I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

When I first went to boarding school we were told to use only
something called "Gibbs Detifrice". It only occurred to me about 40
years later that that was probably because they don't want kids
squeezing toothpaste all over the bathroom.

Post by occam

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Their toothpaste is found
in every supermarket and it occupies a not small section of the
toothpaste shelf. When my dentist offered me a free sample of
toothpaste, it was a Colgate product.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 31 Aug 2024 19:12:03 +0200, Steve Hayes

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by occam

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos. He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?)

I have known the brand Colgate since I was a child. That makes me
conclude that it is known all over the world...

.. if that world was Denmark. The go-to brand in my childhood was
'Kolynos'. Judging by the result of my Google search - a lot of retro
B&W ads - Colgate did better than Kolynos.

I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.
When I first went to boarding school we were told to use only
something called "Gibbs Detifrice". It only occurred to me about 40
years later that that was probably because they don't want kids
squeezing toothpaste all over the bathroom.

In 1955, three individuals at Indiana University developed Crest
toothpaste with stannous fluoride* and assigned the patent to Procter
& Gamble.

When I went to I.U. in the fall of 1956, P&G handed out free tubes of
Crest. Some students were paid to have dental checkups several times
a year to determine the effect of the product in preventing cavities,
but any student could get the free tubes.

I've used nothing but Crest to this day, and I.U. continues to receive
royalties from the sale of Crest. When the university asks me for
donations, I tell them that my donation is my loyalty to Crest.

When we got married in 1964, my wife was a Pepsodent user. For
several years we had both Pepsodent and Crest in the bathroom, but
somewhere along the line she switched to Crest.

*This was changed to sodium fluoride in 1981.

[Mike Spencer]

Post by Tony Cooper
In 1955, three individuals at Indiana University developed Crest
toothpaste with stannous fluoride* and assigned the patent to Procter
& Gamble.
When I went to I.U. in the fall of 1956, P&G handed out free tubes of
Crest. Some students were paid to have dental checkups several times
a year to determine the effect of the product in preventing cavities,
but any student could get the free tubes.
[snip]
*This was changed to sodium fluoride in 1981.

I have recent tubes of Crest "Pro-Health" and Crest "Sensi Repair &
Prevent" right here. Both list stannous fluoride as active
ingredient.

ObAUE: Corporations inventing diverse cutesy names for different
packagng of the same thing is really irritating

[Adam Funk]

Post by Tony Cooper
In 1955, three individuals at Indiana University developed Crest
toothpaste with stannous fluoride* and assigned the patent to Procter
& Gamble.

...

Post by Tony Cooper
*This was changed to sodium fluoride in 1981.

The story of the discovery of the benefits of fluoride is interesting.

<https://www.nidcr.nih.gov/health-info/fluoride/the-story-of-fluoridation>

Short version: children who grew up in Colorado Springs had
brown-stained teeth which were "surprisingly and inexplicably
resistant to decay". It turned out that excessive fluoride levels in
the water caused the stains but lower levels were sufficient to reduce
caries.

(Not a commie plot to sap & impurify our precious bodily fluids.)

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Adam Funk
Short version: children who grew up in Colorado Springs had
brown-stained teeth which were "surprisingly and inexplicably
resistant to decay". It turned out that excessive fluoride levels in
the water caused the stains but lower levels were sufficient to reduce
caries.

There's an area in Denmark where the fluor contents in the water is bad
for the teeth - too high.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Adam Funk
Short version: children who grew up in Colorado Springs had
brown-stained teeth which were "surprisingly and inexplicably
resistant to decay". It turned out that excessive fluoride levels in
the water caused the stains but lower levels were sufficient to reduce
caries.

There's an area in Denmark where the fluor contents in the water is bad
for the teeth - too high.

Like Colorado Springs, aesthetically bad but technically good (almost
no cavities)?

[Janet]

In article <***@news.ducksburg.com>, a24061
@ducksburg.com says...

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Tony Cooper
In 1955, three individuals at Indiana University developed Crest
toothpaste with stannous fluoride* and assigned the patent to Procter
& Gamble.

...

Post by Tony Cooper
*This was changed to sodium fluoride in 1981.

The story of the discovery of the benefits of fluoride is interesting.
<https://www.nidcr.nih.gov/health-info/fluoride/the-story-of-fluoridation>
Short version: children who grew up in Colorado Springs had
brown-stained teeth which were "surprisingly and inexplicably
resistant to decay". It turned out that excessive fluoride levels in
the water caused the stains but lower levels were sufficient to reduce
caries.
(Not a commie plot to sap & impurify our precious bodily fluids.)

We raised our children where the water supply is not
fluoridated so I gave them daily, measured dose
fluoride drops (free on the NHS) from birth until their
second teeth had erupted. This was on the advice of my
dentist who considered it far safer for childrens'
developing bones and teeth, than using fluoride
toothpaste.

Now middle aged adults, they all still have absolutely
perfect teeth ( white, no mottling). They have never
experienced toothache, caries, drillings, fillings, or
dental bills.

Janet

[Adam Funk]

Post by Janet
@ducksburg.com says...

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Tony Cooper
In 1955, three individuals at Indiana University developed Crest
toothpaste with stannous fluoride* and assigned the patent to Procter
& Gamble.

...

Post by Tony Cooper
*This was changed to sodium fluoride in 1981.

The story of the discovery of the benefits of fluoride is interesting.
<https://www.nidcr.nih.gov/health-info/fluoride/the-story-of-fluoridation>
Short version: children who grew up in Colorado Springs had
brown-stained teeth which were "surprisingly and inexplicably
resistant to decay". It turned out that excessive fluoride levels in
the water caused the stains but lower levels were sufficient to reduce
caries.
(Not a commie plot to sap & impurify our precious bodily fluids.)

We raised our children where the water supply is not
fluoridated so I gave them daily, measured dose
fluoride drops (free on the NHS) from birth until their
second teeth had erupted. This was on the advice of my
dentist who considered it far safer for childrens'
developing bones and teeth, than using fluoride
toothpaste.

I hadn't heard of that. I guess it does let you control the dose much
more carefully.

Post by Janet
Now middle aged adults, they all still have absolutely
perfect teeth ( white, no mottling). They have never
experienced toothache, caries, drillings, fillings, or
dental bills.
Janet

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Janet
@ducksburg.com says...

Post by Adam Funk
Short version: children who grew up in Colorado Springs had
brown-stained teeth which were "surprisingly and inexplicably
resistant to decay". It turned out that excessive fluoride levels in
the water caused the stains but lower levels were sufficient to reduce
caries.
(Not a commie plot to sap & impurify our precious bodily fluids.)

We raised our children where the water supply is not
fluoridated so I gave them daily, measured dose
fluoride drops (free on the NHS) from birth until their
second teeth had erupted. This was on the advice of my
dentist who considered it far safer for childrens'
developing bones and teeth, than using fluoride
toothpaste.
Now middle aged adults, they all still have absolutely
perfect teeth ( white, no mottling). They have never
experienced toothache, caries, drillings, fillings, or
dental bills.

We gave our kids little flouride pills to suck, and, similar to yours,
they have had far lower dental bills than their parents.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

[Steve Hayes]

On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 07:59:06 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

I now use Meridol (dentist's recommendation). My wife buys a different
brand each time she goes to the shop, I think the current one is
Himalaya.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Steve Hayes
On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 07:59:06 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

You'll wonder where the yellow went when you brush your teeth with
Pepsodent. The first advertisement I ever saw on ITV.

Post by Steve Hayes
I now use Meridol (dentist's recommendation). My wife buys a different
brand each time she goes to the shop, I think the current one is
Himalaya.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Steve Hayes
On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 07:59:06 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

You'll wonder where the yellow went when you brush your teeth with
Pepsodent. The first advertisement I ever saw on ITV.

It was the first advert broadcast on ITV.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Steve Hayes
I now use Meridol (dentist's recommendation). My wife buys a different
brand each time she goes to the shop, I think the current one is
Himalaya.

[musika]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Steve Hayes
On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 07:59:06 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

You'll wonder where the yellow went when you brush your teeth with
Pepsodent. The first advertisement I ever saw on ITV.

Interesting. The very first one was for Gibbs SR.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by musika

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Steve Hayes
On Sun, 1 Sep 2024 07:59:06 +0200, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

You'll wonder where the yellow went when you brush your teeth with
Pepsodent. The first advertisement I ever saw on ITV.

Interesting. The very first one was for Gibbs SR.

Quite possible. We only had BBC in our house, as my parents didn't
approve of ITV (not an uncommon attitude at that time, I think), so it
was well after the start of ITV that I first saw it (in someone else's
house).

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
You'll wonder where the yellow went when you brush your teeth with
Pepsodent. The first advertisement I ever saw on ITV.

I remember hearing it as an ad jingle on the radio.

The schoolboy version was:

You'll wonder where your molars went
When you brush your teeth with wet cement.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

When I was in about grade 9, we had a 'talent show' in which students
were invited to perform on stage. A friend and I made a cardboard
mock-up of a TV, and did some comedy sketches.

Between sketches, we did some commercials. One was a take-off on a
Pepsodent commerncial...

"You'll wonder where your molars went
when you brush your teeth with wet cement."

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

When I was in about grade 9, we had a 'talent show' in which students
were invited to perform on stage. A friend and I made a cardboard
mock-up of a TV, and did some comedy sketches.
Between sketches, we did some commercials. One was a take-off on a
Pepsodent commerncial...
"You'll wonder where your molars went
when you brush your teeth with wet cement."

I think the ancient Romans used powdered pumice dispersed in urine.

[occam]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

When I was in about grade 9, we had a 'talent show' in which students
were invited to perform on stage. A friend and I made a cardboard
mock-up of a TV, and did some comedy sketches.
Between sketches, we did some commercials. One was a take-off on a
Pepsodent commerncial...
"You'll wonder where your molars went
when you brush your teeth with wet cement."

I think the ancient Romans used powdered pumice dispersed in urine.

More recent than Roman times, my father - who spent a few years working
in Sudan in the 1930s - said the locals used to dip their toothbrush in
ash for brushing their teeth. He claimed they had the healthiest looking
teeth he had ever seen.

More recently, there is a niche toothpaste on sale, advertised as 'au
charbon vegetale'. It looks jet-black when squeezed onto the toothbrush.
The testimonials on the packaging say it is designed/approved by dental
professionals. It has the usual minty taste, and the rinse-out is
grey-ish white - not black as you would expect.

[Adam Funk]

Post by occam

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

When I was in about grade 9, we had a 'talent show' in which students
were invited to perform on stage. A friend and I made a cardboard
mock-up of a TV, and did some comedy sketches.
Between sketches, we did some commercials. One was a take-off on a
Pepsodent commerncial...
"You'll wonder where your molars went
when you brush your teeth with wet cement."

I think the ancient Romans used powdered pumice dispersed in urine.

More recent than Roman times, my father - who spent a few years working
in Sudan in the 1930s - said the locals used to dip their toothbrush in
ash for brushing their teeth. He claimed they had the healthiest looking
teeth he had ever seen.
More recently, there is a niche toothpaste on sale, advertised as 'au
charbon vegetale'. It looks jet-black when squeezed onto the toothbrush.
The testimonials on the packaging say it is designed/approved by dental
professionals. It has the usual minty taste, and the rinse-out is
grey-ish white - not black as you would expect.

As I suspected, that's activated charcoal. It turns out you can also
make "charbon animal".

<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charbon_actif#Fabrication_du_charbon_animal>

[Peter Moylan]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

When I was in about grade 9, we had a 'talent show' in which students
were invited to perform on stage. A friend and I made a cardboard
mock-up of a TV, and did some comedy sketches.
Between sketches, we did some commercials. One was a take-off on a
Pepsodent commerncial...
"You'll wonder where your molars went
when you brush your teeth with wet cement."

Australian children sang something similar. Independent invention, or
was there some way in which such ideas could cross the ocean?

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca
Between sketches, we did some commercials. One was a take-off on a
Pepsodent commerncial...
"You'll wonder where your molars went
when you brush your teeth with wet cement."

Australian children sang something similar. Independent invention, or
was there some way in which such ideas could cross the ocean?

My brother once made a little folder about Max (toothpaste). Something
like:

Max makes yellow teeth black and makes your poo shining white.

Maybe the idea is self-suggesting?

"Self-suggesting" is my effort to convey the idea of the Danish
"nærliggende" - near-lying. What is the English word? I considered
"obvious".

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca
Between sketches, we did some commercials. One was a take-off on
a Pepsodent commerncial...
"You'll wonder where your molars went when you brush your teeth
with wet cement."

Australian children sang something similar. Independent invention,
or was there some way in which such ideas could cross the ocean?

My brother once made a little folder about Max (toothpaste).
Max makes yellow teeth black and makes your poo shining white.
Maybe the idea is self-suggesting?
"Self-suggesting" is my effort to convey the idea of the Danish
"nærliggende" - near-lying. What is the English word? I considered
"obvious".

Self-evident.

Google Translate disagrees, by the way. It says that "nærliggende" means
"nearby" or "adjacent".

When my eldest son was at school in Oakland, California, he was taught
the song

Comet, it makes your teeth turn green,
Comet, it tastes like gasoline.
Comet, it makes you vomit,
So use some Comet, and vomit today.

(I now see that this song is well-known enough to have a Wikipedia
entry.) His classmates thought that Comet was a brand of toothpaste. I
told him to tell them that in Australia it was a drain cleaner. I see
now that it's also a cleaning powder in North America, so his classmates
were suffering under a misapprehension.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
"Self-suggesting" is my effort to convey the idea of the Danish
"nærliggende" - near-lying. What is the English word? I considered
"obvious".

Self-evident.
Google Translate disagrees, by the way. It says that "nærliggende" means
"nearby" or "adjacent".

Yes, I tried that, but GT doesn't understand the word. It tries with a
physical sense which is wrong.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca
Between sketches, we did some commercials. One was a take-off on a
Pepsodent commerncial...
"You'll wonder where your molars went
when you brush your teeth with wet cement."

Australian children sang something similar. Independent invention, or
was there some way in which such ideas could cross the ocean?

My brother once made a little folder about Max (toothpaste). Something
Max makes yellow teeth black and makes your poo shining white.
Maybe the idea is self-suggesting?
"Self-suggesting" is my effort to convey the idea of the Danish
"nærliggende" - near-lying. What is the English word? I considered
"obvious".

I can't think of anything better than "obvious".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Rich Ulrich]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca
Between sketches, we did some commercials. One was a take-off on a
Pepsodent commerncial...
"You'll wonder where your molars went
when you brush your teeth with wet cement."

Australian children sang something similar. Independent invention, or
was there some way in which such ideas could cross the ocean?

My brother once made a little folder about Max (toothpaste). Something
Max makes yellow teeth black and makes your poo shining white.
Maybe the idea is self-suggesting?
"Self-suggesting" is my effort to convey the idea of the Danish
"nærliggende" - near-lying. What is the English word? I considered
"obvious".

I can't think of anything better than "obvious".

I don't see (above) what is supposed to be so obvious.

But I've rather liked an extreme version of 'obvious' --
which is, "instant cliché" -- born in 1967, tiny peak in 1991
(7 zeroes before the first digit of the %), gone in 2015.

https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=instant+cliche&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=en-2019&smoothing=0&case_insensitive=false
I don't recall seeing a graph like that, which also seems to
display the pattern for an instant cliche that didn't last.

[Steve Hayes]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

When I was in about grade 9, we had a 'talent show' in which students
were invited to perform on stage. A friend and I made a cardboard
mock-up of a TV, and did some comedy sketches.
Between sketches, we did some commercials. One was a take-off on a
Pepsodent commerncial...
"You'll wonder where your molars went
when you brush your teeth with wet cement."

Interesting, we had exactly the same version. I wonder where it
originated.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Steve Hayes
I remember seeing ads for Kolynos and Pepsodent in my youth, but
Colgate, which we used, has outlived them.

I knew Pepsodent from my childhood and youth. You can still buy it. I
think that the largest brand at the time was "Max" which has completely
disappeared. A search for "toothpaste Max" gives only Colgate links.

When I was in about grade 9, we had a 'talent show' in which students
were invited to perform on stage. A friend and I made a cardboard
mock-up of a TV, and did some comedy sketches.
Between sketches, we did some commercials. One was a take-off on a
Pepsodent commerncial...
"You'll wonder where your molars went
when you brush your teeth with wet cement."

Interesting, we had exactly the same version. I wonder where it
originated.

Beats me. I can't remember where or when I heard it. I thought we had
made it up, but hearing now, how ubiquitous it is, I very much doubt that.

Another one, which I am pretty sure we didn't make up (and which was not
in our skits), was:

Double your pleasure, double your fun.
It's better to sleep with two women than one.

Sung t the tune of the Doublemint gum commercials.

[Silvano]

Post by occam

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos. He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?)

I have known the brand Colgate since I was a child. That makes me
conclude that it is known all over the world...

.. if that world was Denmark.

Or Italy, where we pronounced it as if were an Italian name.
And in Germany you can buy Colgate toothpaste even today.

[Paul Carmichael]

El Mon, 02 Sep 2024 13:09:52 +0200, Silvano escribió:

<colgate>

Post by Silvano
Or Italy, where we pronounced it as if were an Italian name.

Here in Spain they say "coll gateh".

Also "fairy liquid" is "fay(eye)ri de toda la vida".

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos. He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?)

I have known the brand Colgate since I was a child. That makes me
conclude that it is known all over the world. Their toothpaste is found
in every supermarket and it occupies a not small section of the
toothpaste shelf. When my dentist offered me a free sample of
toothpaste, it was a Colgate product.

In this country you have to search the bottommost shelf to find a
non-Colgate toothpaste.

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I have known the brand Colgate since I was a child. That makes me
conclude that it is known all over the world. Their toothpaste is found
in every supermarket and it occupies a not small section of the
toothpaste shelf. When my dentist offered me a free sample of
toothpaste, it was a Colgate product.

In this country you have to search the bottommost shelf to find a
non-Colgate toothpaste.

In this country, on the other hand, there are many brands of "top
shelf" toothpaste that are not made by Colgate-Palmolive, although
some of those (like Tom's of Maine) have distribution deals with C-P.
Colgate and Procter & Gamble's Crest brand have been neck-and-neck for
some years, with Unilever running a distant third -- Unilever has
since sold its US dental care business (Aim, Close-Up, Pepsodent) to
Church & Dwight (the "Arm & Hammer" baking sode people).

-GAWollman

[lar3ryca]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos.  He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?)

I have known the brand Colgate since I was a child. That makes me
conclude that it is known all over the world. Their toothpaste is found
in every supermarket and it occupies a not small section of the
toothpaste shelf. When my dentist offered me a free sample of
toothpaste, it was a Colgate product.

In this country you have to search the bottommost shelf to find a
non-Colgate toothpaste.

That's unfortunate.

I dislike Peppermint, a love spearmint.
Colgate does not seem to know the difference, and I gave up trying to
find a Colgate flavour that was not peppermint.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Peter Moylan
In this country you have to search the bottommost shelf to find a
non-Colgate toothpaste.

That's unfortunate.
I dislike Peppermint, a love spearmint. Colgate does not seem to know
the difference, and I gave up trying to find a Colgate flavour that
was not peppermint.

My ex-wife was allergic to mint flavouring, and it wasn't easy finding
toothpaste for her. It existed, but the supermarkets kept it hidden away
where it was hard to find. Finding non-mint toothpaste was like trying
to buy non-scented soap.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Peter Moylan
In this country you have to search the bottommost shelf to find a
non-Colgate toothpaste.

That's unfortunate.
I dislike Peppermint, a love spearmint. Colgate does not seem to know
the difference, and I gave up trying to find a Colgate flavour that
was not peppermint.

My ex-wife was allergic to mint flavouring, and it wasn't easy finding
toothpaste for her. It existed, but the supermarkets kept it hidden away
where it was hard to find. Finding non-mint toothpaste was like trying
to buy non-scented soap.

I cannot stand scented soap bars. I buy Dove bars labeled "Sensitive
Skin" that are hypoallergenic and unscented.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan
My ex-wife was allergic to mint flavouring, and it wasn't easy finding
toothpaste for her. It existed, but the supermarkets kept it hidden away
where it was hard to find. Finding non-mint toothpaste was like trying
to buy non-scented soap.

The supermarket chain where I do my shopping, had a line of products
called "minirisk" which only contained the necessary ingredients. Today
it's called something else, but it's still available.

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by lar3ryca
I dislike Peppermint, a love spearmint.
Colgate does not seem to know the difference, and I gave up trying to
find a Colgate flavour that was not peppermint.

I'm quite the opposite: I like peppermint and absolutely *loathe*
spearmint. It is sometimes still quite difficult to find which one is
in something labeled "mint" with no extra detail, and the labeling
laws don't require the manufacturer to be more specific than that.
(If I recall correctly, spearmint is Mentha spicata and peppermint, a
hybrid, is Mentha x piperita, so sometimes, if it's a "natural" brand,
they'll give the botanical name.)

-GAWollman

[Bill Day]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos. He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?)

I have known the brand Colgate since I was a child. That makes me
conclude that it is known all over the world. Their toothpaste is found
in every supermarket and it occupies a not small section of the
toothpaste shelf. When my dentist offered me a free sample of
toothpaste, it was a Colgate product.

In this country you have to search the bottommost shelf to find a
non-Colgate toothpaste.

From an American singing commercial so long ago that I don't remember
where:
"Brush your teeth with Colgate,
Colgate dental cream,
It cleans your breath."What a toothpaste!"|
While it cleans your teeth"

Nowdays I use Arm and Hammer "Peroxicare"... peroxide and baking soda.
I hate any kind of mint flavors.

[Chris Elvidge]

Post by Bill Day

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos. He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?)

I have known the brand Colgate since I was a child. That makes me
conclude that it is known all over the world. Their toothpaste is found
in every supermarket and it occupies a not small section of the
toothpaste shelf. When my dentist offered me a free sample of
toothpaste, it was a Colgate product.

In this country you have to search the bottommost shelf to find a
non-Colgate toothpaste.

From an American singing commercial so long ago that I don't remember
"Brush your teeth with Colgate,
Colgate dental cream,
It cleans your breath."What a toothpaste!"|
While it cleans your teeth"
Nowdays I use Arm and Hammer "Peroxicare"... peroxide and baking soda.
I hate any kind of mint flavors.

Upvote for Arm and Hammer

[Adam Funk]

Post by Bill Day

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos. He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?)

I have known the brand Colgate since I was a child. That makes me
conclude that it is known all over the world. Their toothpaste is found
in every supermarket and it occupies a not small section of the
toothpaste shelf. When my dentist offered me a free sample of
toothpaste, it was a Colgate product.

In this country you have to search the bottommost shelf to find a
non-Colgate toothpaste.

From an American singing commercial so long ago that I don't remember
"Brush your teeth with Colgate,
Colgate dental cream,
It cleans your breath."What a toothpaste!"|
While it cleans your teeth"
Nowdays I use Arm and Hammer "Peroxicare"... peroxide and baking soda.
I hate any kind of mint flavors.

I hate them too, but I haven't heard of that brand. I buy Kingfisher
Fennel in the UK & Crest Cinnamon in the USA. Unfortunately (IMO) most
of the non-mint ones seem to be fluoride-free.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Bill Day

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos. He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?)

I have known the brand Colgate since I was a child. That makes me
conclude that it is known all over the world. Their toothpaste is found
in every supermarket and it occupies a not small section of the
toothpaste shelf. When my dentist offered me a free sample of
toothpaste, it was a Colgate product.

In this country you have to search the bottommost shelf to find a
non-Colgate toothpaste.

From an American singing commercial so long ago that I don't remember
"Brush your teeth with Colgate,
Colgate dental cream,
It cleans your breath."What a toothpaste!"|
While it cleans your teeth"
Nowdays I use Arm and Hammer "Peroxicare"... peroxide and baking soda.
I hate any kind of mint flavors.

I hate them too, but I haven't heard of that brand. I buy Kingfisher
Fennel in the UK & Crest Cinnamon in the USA. Unfortunately (IMO) most
of the non-mint ones seem to be fluoride-free.

My favourite flavour, at least in candy or ice cream, is liquorice (or
licorice if you prefer).

I once saw a display of Tom's toothpaste, and noticed that liquorice was
one of the flavours, so I bought a tube. It was VERY disappointing, as
it had only a faint hint of that flavour.

[Ken Blake]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Peter Moylan
I have just encountered the word "somewheres" in my reading. (Although
not for the first time.) This word does not exist in Australian English.
I gather that it is used by some North Americans, possibly a minority.

I'm pretty sure it's a minority.

Post by Peter Moylan
I first met it from the supervisor of my Master's research. He was
Australian, but had spent some time in the US, and he married an
American. She was from one of the flyover states. Iowa, I think.
Easy question: if this is regional, what region?

Hard question, since you don't necessarily know what region
people are from, as Athel found out when searching for a native
Californian. I think of it as rural and maybe African American.
I remember being struck by hearing it from the physicist Stirling
Colgate, who I worked with on a magazine article when I was at
Los Alamos. He was a New Yorker from an extremely wealthy
family (are Colgate products known outside the U.S.?)

Yes. I used to work for Colgate and I visited Colgate
Offices/Factories in many parts of the world.

[Ross Clark]

Post by Peter Moylan
I have just encountered the word "somewheres" in my reading. (Although
not for the first time.) This word does not exist in Australian English.
I gather that it is used by some North Americans, possibly a minority.
I first met it from the supervisor of my Master's research. He was
Australian, but had spent some time in the US, and he married an
American. She was from one of the flyover states. Iowa, I think.
Easy question: if this is regional, what region?
Difficult question: is there a subtle difference in meaning between
"somewhere" and "somewheres"? Are there sentences where one word would
work but not the other?

You'd have to find someone who uses them both.

For me, "somewheres" is a non-standard variant of "somewhere". I don't
use it; I've heard it often, but it's not associated with any region
that I know of. The ngram shows that "somewheres" is pretty close to
non-existent in written English. I would guess it occurs in
representations of "dialect" speech.

The =s is what I've called the "floating adverbial -s", originally from
the OE genitive, now used on a lot of adverbs, in some cases obligatory
(sideways) but often variably (backward, backwards). To take a related
example, for me "sometimes" is the adverb, but "sometime" exists as an
adjective (her sometime lover). It's possible some speakers have
"somewhere" and "somewheres" in a similar division of labour.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Ross Clark

Post by Peter Moylan
Difficult question: is there a subtle difference in meaning between
"somewhere" and "somewheres"? Are there sentences where one word would
work but not the other?

You'd have to find someone who uses them both.
For me, "somewheres" is a non-standard variant of "somewhere". I don't
use it; I've heard it often, but it's not associated with any region
that I know of. The ngram shows that "somewheres" is pretty close to
non-existent in written English. I would guess it occurs in
representations of "dialect" speech.

I find "non-existant" too strong. There are only four zeros after the
point.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Peter Moylan
I have just encountered the word "somewheres" in my reading. (Although
not for the first time.) This word does not exist in Australian English.
I gather that it is used by some North Americans, possibly a minority.

As soon as I read that, I heard Judy Garland in my head. I'm glad she
didn't add an s. I assume it's a voiced s. So Judy would have sung "zover
the rainbow".

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
I have just encountered the word "somewheres" in my reading. (Although
not for the first time.) This word does not exist in Australian English.
I gather that it is used by some North Americans, possibly a minority.

As soon as I read that, I heard Judy Garland in my head. I'm glad she
didn't add an s. I assume it's a voiced s. So Judy would have sung "zover
the rainbow".

Where do you weigh a pie?

[Adam Funk]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
I have just encountered the word "somewheres" in my reading. (Although
not for the first time.) This word does not exist in Australian English.
I gather that it is used by some North Americans, possibly a minority.

As soon as I read that, I heard Judy Garland in my head. I'm glad she
didn't add an s. I assume it's a voiced s. So Judy would have sung "zover
the rainbow".

Where do you weigh a pie?

On the kitchen scale.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
I have just encountered the word "somewheres" in my reading. (Although
not for the first time.) This word does not exist in Australian English.
I gather that it is used by some North Americans, possibly a minority.

As soon as I read that, I heard Judy Garland in my head. I'm glad she
didn't add an s. I assume it's a voiced s. So Judy would have sung "zover
the rainbow".

Where do you weigh a pie?

On the kitchen scale.

Somewhere,
Over the rainbow,
Weigh a pie.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Peter Moylan
Where do you weigh a pie?

On the kitchen scale.

Somewhere,
Over the rainbow,
Weigh a pie.

Some wear our the reign bow

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
I have just encountered the word "somewheres" in my reading.
(Although not for the first time.) This word does not exist in
Australian English. I gather that it is used by some North
Americans, possibly a minority.

As soon as I read that, I heard Judy Garland in my head. I'm glad
she didn't add an s. I assume it's a voiced s. So Judy would have
sung "zover the rainbow".

As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In fact,
most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Peter Moylan
As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In fact,
most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That's how people speak here. "Los olivos" are "loh'holivoh".

[Bebercito]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In fact,
most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That's how people speak here. "Los olivos" are "loh'holivoh".

Do they also say 'Madri', or 'Madriz'?

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Bebercito

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In fact,
most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That's how people speak here. "Los olivos" are "loh'holivoh".

Do they also say 'Madri', or 'Madriz'?

Where I am, the first. Politicians say Madriz(th) but I don't know about
ordinary people up north. I'm in the deep south.

[Bebercito]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Bebercito

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In fact,
most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That's how people speak here. "Los olivos" are "loh'holivoh".

Do they also say 'Madri', or 'Madriz'?

Where I am, the first. Politicians say Madriz(th) but I don't know about
ordinary people up north. I'm in the deep south.

Thanks. I think madrileños themselves say 'Madriz' (voiced th) but I've
heard
that a pronunciation of 'Madriz' with unvoiced th can also be found in
many
regions of Spain, though considered substandard.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Bebercito
Thanks. I think madrileños themselves say 'Madriz' (voiced th) but I've
heard that a pronunciation of 'Madriz' with unvoiced th can also be
found in many regions of Spain, though considered substandard.

Tune in to TVE24 on a wednesday am. "Sesión de control" in Congress. It's
where the opposition get to have a pop at the incumbents. Madrid gets
mentioned a lot because it's controlled by the opposition and Sánchez
tries to blame them for all the ills of the country.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In fact,
most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That's how people speak here. "Los olivos" are "loh'holivoh".

In Chile too, but not in many Latin American coutries -- not in Peru,
for example. In Mexico final s is pronounced very clearly.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In fact,
most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That's how people speak here. "Los olivos" are "loh'holivoh".

In Chile too, but not in many Latin American coutries -- not in Peru,
for example. In Mexico final s is pronounced very clearly.

Not just final s here. When the international football is on they shout
"Ehpaña".

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In fact,
most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That's how people speak here. "Los olivos" are "loh'holivoh".

Also here in el Norte (of New Mexico). People even say "ahina"
for "así", which people from other parts of the Spanish-speaking
world think is funny.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

El Sun, 01 Sep 2024 09:49:19 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In
fact, most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That's how people speak here. "Los olivos" are "loh'holivoh".

Also here in el Norte (of New Mexico). People even say "ahina" for
"así", which people from other parts of the Spanish-speaking world
think is funny.

Does the dropping of the final S go back to Greek or Hebrew?

Crossposted to sci.lang, where people might know the answer.

Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants? This thread has provided examples in Spanish. French
lost a lot of final consonants (in speech, but not in writing) centuries
ago. Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language. Portuguese seems to drop all sorts of things.

Those are all examples in Romance languages. I can't think of any
examples in Germanic languages, and I don't know enough about other
language families.

The well-known example in English is the "dropped g", which reduces an
-ing ending to -@n. But that's not actually the dropping of a consonant,
it's the replacement of one consonant by another. The average English
speaker doesn't notice that, because we're not used to thinking of "ng"
as a single consonant.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Peter Moylan

El Sun, 01 Sep 2024 09:49:19 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In
fact, most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That's how people speak here. "Los olivos" are "loh'holivoh".

Also here in el Norte (of New Mexico). People even say "ahina" for
"así", which people from other parts of the Spanish-speaking world
think is funny.

Does the dropping of the final S go back to Greek or Hebrew?

Crossposted to sci.lang, where people might know the answer.
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants? This thread has provided examples in Spanish. French
lost a lot of final consonants (in speech, but not in writing) centuries
ago. Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language. Portuguese seems to drop all sorts of things.

In his efforts to revitalize Provençal Frédéric Mistral devised an
orthogaphy in which endings that are not pronounced are not written. As
a result the plural of a Provençal noun is the same as the singular.
His system works very well, but unfortuately in recent years it has
largely been supplanted by the "classical" style, which is preferred by
people who would like Provençal to look as similar to Catalan as
possible.

Post by Peter Moylan
Those are all examples in Romance languages. I can't think of any
examples in Germanic languages, and I don't know enough about other
language families.
The well-known example in English is the "dropped g", which reduces an
it's the replacement of one consonant by another. The average English
speaker doesn't notice that, because we're not used to thinking of "ng"
as a single consonant.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants? This thread has provided examples in Spanish. French
lost a lot of final consonants (in speech, but not in writing) centuries
ago. Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language. Portuguese seems to drop all sorts of things.
Those are all examples in Romance languages. I can't think of any
examples in Germanic languages, and I don't know enough about other
language families.

Spoken Danish drops as much as possible. "Synes" => "sys", "trapperne"
=> "trappern", and there are many more examples.

In dk.kultur.sprog (language) we joked with pronouncing
"socialdemokratiet" with three syllables (it has 8).

[Adam Funk]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants? This thread has provided examples in Spanish. French
lost a lot of final consonants (in speech, but not in writing) centuries
ago. Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language. Portuguese seems to drop all sorts of things.
Those are all examples in Romance languages. I can't think of any
examples in Germanic languages, and I don't know enough about other
language families.

Spoken Danish drops as much as possible. "Synes" => "sys", "trapperne"
=> "trappern", and there are many more examples.
In dk.kultur.sprog (language) we joked with pronouncing
"socialdemokratiet" with three syllables (it has 8).

Isn't there a Scandinavian joke to the effect that Danish drops all
the consonants & one of the others drops all the vowels, so it evens
out?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants? This thread has provided examples in Spanish. French
lost a lot of final consonants (in speech, but not in writing) centuries
ago. Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language. Portuguese seems to drop all sorts of things.
Those are all examples in Romance languages. I can't think of any
examples in Germanic languages, and I don't know enough about other
language families.

Spoken Danish drops as much as possible. "Synes" => "sys", "trapperne"
=> "trappern", and there are many more examples.
In dk.kultur.sprog (language) we joked with pronouncing
"socialdemokratiet" with three syllables (it has 8).

Isn't there a Scandinavian joke to the effect that Danish drops all
the consonants & one of the others drops all the vowels, so it evens
out?

I've only come across that comparison in relation to Danish and Portuguese.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Peter Moylan
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants? This thread has provided examples in Spanish. French
lost a lot of final consonants (in speech, but not in writing) centuries
ago. Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language. Portuguese seems to drop all sorts of things.
Those are all examples in Romance languages. I can't think of any
examples in Germanic languages, and I don't know enough about other
language families.

Spoken Danish drops as much as possible. "Synes" => "sys", "trapperne"
=> "trappern", and there are many more examples.
In dk.kultur.sprog (language) we joked with pronouncing
"socialdemokratiet" with three syllables (it has 8).

Isn't there a Scandinavian joke to the effect that Danish drops all
the consonants & one of the others drops all the vowels, so it evens
out?

I've only come across that comparison in relation to Danish and Portuguese.

OK, thanks.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Spoken Danish drops as much as possible. "Synes" => "sys", "trapperne"
=> "trappern", and there are many more examples.
In dk.kultur.sprog (language) we joked with pronouncing
"socialdemokratiet" with three syllables (it has 8).

Isn't there a Scandinavian joke to the effect that Danish drops all
the consonants & one of the others drops all the vowels, so it evens
out?

There may be, but it's wrong. Danes drops anything. Swedes and
Norwegians generally speak clearly.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Spoken Danish drops as much as possible. "Synes" => "sys", "trapperne"
=> "trappern", and there are many more examples.
In dk.kultur.sprog (language) we joked with pronouncing
"socialdemokratiet" with three syllables (it has 8).

Isn't there a Scandinavian joke to the effect that Danish drops all
the consonants & one of the others drops all the vowels, so it evens
out?

There may be, but it's wrong. Danes drops anything. Swedes and
Norwegians generally speak clearly.

Heh, maybe Athel's version is right & it's Danish vs Portuguese.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
There may be, but it's wrong. Danes drops anything. Swedes and
Norwegians generally speak clearly.

Heh, maybe Athel's version is right & it's Danish vs Portuguese.

It's still wrong. We also drop vowels. But the joke may exist.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Peter Moylan
Crossposted to sci.lang, where people might know the answer.
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants? This thread has provided examples in Spanish. French
lost a lot of final consonants (in speech, but not in writing) centuries
ago. Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language. Portuguese seems to drop all sorts of things.
Those are all examples in Romance languages. I can't think of any
examples in Germanic languages, and I don't know enough about other
language families.
The well-known example in English is the "dropped g", which reduces an
it's the replacement of one consonant by another. The average English
speaker doesn't notice that, because we're not used to thinking of "ng"
as a single consonant.

The -ing suffix in Modern English is a fusion of two Old English
suffixes, one similar to German -ung & the other to German -end. I'm
not sure of the extent to which that encouraged the development of the
current -in'/-ing situation.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Adam Funk
The -ing suffix in Modern English is a fusion of two Old English
suffixes, one similar to German -ung & the other to German -end. I'm
not sure of the extent to which that encouraged the development of the
current -in'/-ing situation.

One might add that the -ung is a suffix that substantivates a verb,
while the -end makes the verbform present particip. There are parallels
in Danish where we have -(n)ing and -ende.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Adam Funk
The -ing suffix in Modern English is a fusion of two Old English
suffixes, one similar to German -ung & the other to German -end. I'm
not sure of the extent to which that encouraged the development of the
current -in'/-ing situation.

One might add that the -ung is a suffix that substantivates a verb,
while the -end makes the verbform present particip. There are parallels
in Danish where we have -(n)ing and -ende.

I'm not surprised. I think (but am open to correction) that English is
the only Germanic language that has merged them.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Peter Moylan
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants?

If you take the big picture view, the answer is certainly yes, but
the details vary wildly.

Post by Peter Moylan
I can't think of any examples in Germanic languages,

Take PGmc *hringaz > OE hring > PDE ring.

Proto-Germanic *-az was the counterpart to the ubiquitous Latin
ending -us, Greek -os, but it was mostly lost in West Germanic.[1]
Much later, along the way from Old English [hrɪŋɡ] to Present Day
English [rɪŋ], final [g] after [ŋ] was lost.

Strikingly, Middle English lost final -e and, inconsistenly, -en,
which is intimately tied to the collapse of the declension system.

Post by Peter Moylan
and I don't know enough about other language families.

Proto-Slavic went through a stage where the language had only open
syllables, i.e., all syllables ended in a vowel. Getting there
clearly entailed the loss of some syllable- and word-final consonants.

Post by Peter Moylan
This thread has provided examples in Spanish.

Many Spanish words that end on a consonant have clearly lost a final
-e in the past, think este/ese/AQUEL vs. Portuguese este/esse/aquele.

The debuccalization of post-vocalic [s] > [h] isn't limited to final
position, though: mismo [mihmo].

Post by Peter Moylan
French lost a lot of final consonants (in speech, but not in
writing) centuries ago.

The sound shifts from Vulgar Latin to Old French were brutal. One
striking change is the loss of all vowels in the final syllable
other than a, which became e [ə]. In a nutshell, this is why you
have -o/-e/-a in Spanish and Italian, but -/-/-e in the corresponding
French forms. If you look at adjectives, the Old French masculine
would then end in a consonant, the feminine in [ə]. This stage is
still preserved in the spelling. Later, most final consonants would
drop, as well as final [ə], so in modern spoken French it's the
masculine forms that now end in a vowel and the feminine ones that
end in a consonant.


[1] If you know German, the nominative singular masculine ending
-er of determiners and strong adjectives is from PGmc *-az.
That Old High German conserved this but Old English didn't
might have been another subtle factor in the collapse of English
nominal declension. OHG also innovated a nom. sg. neuter ending
-eȥ (modern -es) by misanalyzing part of the stem of neuter
pronouns as an ending. That's two endings that could have
remained distinct during the fall of -e and -en in Middle English
if only Old English had had them in the first place. Details,
details.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Peter Moylan
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants?

If you take the big picture view, the answer is certainly yes, but
the details vary wildly.

Post by Peter Moylan
I can't think of any examples in Germanic languages,

Take PGmc *hringaz > OE hring > PDE ring.
Proto-Germanic *-az was the counterpart to the ubiquitous Latin
ending -us, Greek -os, but it was mostly lost in West Germanic.[1]
Much later, along the way from Old English [hrɪŋɡ] to Present Day
English [rɪŋ], final [g] after [ŋ] was lost.

More recently, lots of final /r/s have been lost in some dialects
of English, except before a vowel in the next word--a similar pattern
to what happened in French, but it may not continue the same way.
Loss of the final consonant in "of" is much more widespread, and
I'm not going to claim I always pronounce the first [t] in "first step"
or the [d] in "second-best".

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Strikingly, Middle English lost final -e and, inconsistenly, -en,
which is intimately tied to the collapse of the declension system.

And lots of the conjugation system?

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Peter Moylan
and I don't know enough about other language families.

[Spanish]

Post by Christian Weisgerber
The debuccalization of post-vocalic [s] > [h] isn't limited to final
position, though: mismo [mihmo].

Mostly final position in the syllable, though. As I mentioned,
northern New Mexico is an exception, and there may be others I
don't know of.

--
Jerry Friedman

[jerryfriedman]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Peter Moylan
Is there a natural tendency for languages to lose final syllables or
final consonants?

If you take the big picture view, the answer is certainly yes, but
the details vary wildly.

Post by Peter Moylan
I can't think of any examples in Germanic languages,

Take PGmc *hringaz > OE hring > PDE ring.
Proto-Germanic *-az was the counterpart to the ubiquitous Latin
ending -us, Greek -os, but it was mostly lost in West Germanic.[1]
Much later, along the way from Old English [hrɪŋɡ] to Present Day
English [rɪŋ], final [g] after [ŋ] was lost.

More recently, lots of final /r/s have been lost in some dialects
of English, except before a vowel in the next word--a similar pattern
to what happened in French, but it may not continue the same way.
Loss of the final consonant in "of"

and "and"

Post by jerryfriedman
is much more widespread, and
I'm not going to claim I always pronounce the first [t] in "first step"
or the [d] in "second-best".

..

While my finger was clicking on "Send", my brain realized that the
final consonant of "an" has disappeared when not followed by a
vowel, and the final consonant of the determiner "mine" first
disappeared when not followed by a vowel, then completely.
"Thine" went through a similar process while it was mostly
disappearing".). And "I" used to have a final consonant.

Deletion of final consonants and vowels in a High German dialect
in this folk song as Brahms set it.

Da unten im Tale
Läuft's Wasser so trüb
Und i kann dir's nit sagen
I hab' di so lieb.

Sprichst allweil von Lieb'
Sprichst allweil von Treu'
Und a bissele Falschheit
Is au wohl dabei!

--
Jerry Friedman

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Also, endings can be lost in specific grammatical contexts while
persisting elsewhere. Since the reduction of vowels in final
syllables to [ə] between Old and Middle High German, there hasn't
been a general change affecting endings in German, I think. However,
people who studied German as a foreign language are probably very
aware of the masculine/neuter singular strong dative -e, e.g. "mit
dem Kind(e)".

I don't know if I *studied* German when learning it in school and later
reading in d.e.s.d, but until now I didn't know about that dative form.
I don't think that I have met it in songs either.

[Aidan Kehoe]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Also, endings can be lost in specific grammatical contexts while
persisting elsewhere. Since the reduction of vowels in final
syllables to [ə] between Old and Middle High German, there hasn't
been a general change affecting endings in German, I think. However,
people who studied German as a foreign language are probably very
aware of the masculine/neuter singular strong dative -e, e.g. "mit
dem Kind(e)".

I don't know if I *studied* German when learning it in school and later
reading in d.e.s.d, but until now I didn't know about that dative form.
I don't think that I have met it in songs either.

Mark Twain comments on it so it may be that explicit mention of it is more
familiar to native English speakers. I was aware of it, but I did study German
fairly intensely as an adult.

[Helmut Richter]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Also, endings can be lost in specific grammatical contexts while
persisting elsewhere. Since the reduction of vowels in final
syllables to [ə] between Old and Middle High German, there hasn't
been a general change affecting endings in German, I think. However,
people who studied German as a foreign language are probably very
aware of the masculine/neuter singular strong dative -e, e.g. "mit
dem Kind(e)".

I don't know if I *studied* German when learning it in school and later
reading in d.e.s.d, but until now I didn't know about that dative form.
I don't think that I have met it in songs either.

I cite from my summary of German declension: https://hhr-m.de/de-decl/
(not a scientific work, only a summary of Usenet discussions about German):

The usage of the optional -e ending for mn-D case and of the -es instead of
the -s ending for mn-G case normally occurs only with words of German
origin ending with a stressed root syllable. It is not possible with words
with a schwa ending, with a diminutive ending -chen or -lein, with an
unstressed foreign ending or with a full vowel other than a diphthong at
the word end. In the remaining cases (foreign words, other words with
unstressed last syllable, words ending with stressed diphthong at the word
end), it is very uncommon but occurs here and there.

When a final [s] sound in the uninflected noun would render the genitive -s
inaudible, that is, with words ending with -s, -ss, -ß, -z, -tz, -x, German
words and foreign words stressed on the last syllable mandatorily get an
-es ending (des Gases, des Rosses, des Kreuzes, des Schatzes, des
Hindernisses, des Kolosses, des Kompromisses) whereas words with unstressed
foreign ending get no genitive ending at all (des Status, des Mythos, des
Index) with exceptions only when the word is no longer perceived as foreign
(des Busses, des Atlasses, des Zirkusses or des Zirkus). For other words as
well, facilitation of pronunciation is an incentive of using the longer
form with -es; in particular with lax plosives after long vowel at the word
end (des Siebes, des Rades, des Tages). and with word-final consonant
clusters ending with -sch, -t, or -d (des Barsches, des Mastes, des
Hemdes). It is, however, neither mandatory for these words nor unusual for
other words (des Tals or des Tales, des Kinns or des Kinnes).

Where there is free choice between -s and -es genitive, usage of -es has a
slight poetic or archaic touch. The always optional -e dative ending,
however, is pronouncedly archaic; many speakers use it only in idioms,
e.g. bei Lichte besehen ([seen] in the cold light of day), im Grunde
(basically), zu Tage treten (outcrop), im rechtlichen Sinne (in the legal
sense), in diesem Sinne (in this spirit).

--
Helmut Richter

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Helmut Richter
Where there is free choice between -s and -es genitive, usage of -es has a
slight poetic or archaic touch. The always optional -e dative ending,
however, is pronouncedly archaic; many speakers use it only in idioms,
e.g. bei Lichte besehen ([seen] in the cold light of day), im Grunde
(basically),

Ah, "In einem kühlen Grunde" - ich habe es gesehen, ... eh, I have seen
it, but I didn't think too much about it.

[Helmut Richter]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Helmut Richter
Where there is free choice between -s and -es genitive, usage of -es has a
slight poetic or archaic touch. The always optional -e dative ending,
however, is pronouncedly archaic; many speakers use it only in idioms,
e.g. bei Lichte besehen ([seen] in the cold light of day), im Grunde
(basically),

Ah, "In einem kühlen Grunde" - ich habe es gesehen, ... eh, I have seen
it, but I didn't think too much about it.

In einem kühlen Grunde,
da steht ein Mühlenrad.
Wie groß ist wohl der Umfang,
wenn man den Radius hat?

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by jerryfriedman
Deletion of final consonants and vowels in a High German dialect

Standard German is notably conservative.

As a native Italian, I have to point out that this statement is utterly
ridiculous.

You ripped that out of its context, which I restored above. So:
... compared to German dialects.

Italians attending grammar schools read Dante in the last three years
before university (he died 1321, so he must have written the Divine
Comedy before that) and could understand most of it.

Excellent. With so much widespread exposure to early 14th century
Italian, maybe somebody can tell me which of these conspicuous
features of the Italian verbal system--not inherited from Latin and
notably absent from Spanish--were already in Dante's language and
which are subsequent innovations:

* replacement of the 1PL present indicative by the subjunctive form
* leveling of the same 1PL (-iamo) and 2PL (-iate) present subjunctive
endings across all three conjugations
* leveling of one ending across all persons in the singular of the
present subjunctive
* replacement of 1SG imperfect -ava/-eva/-iva by -avo/-evo/-ivo
(Wait, I think I read that this one happened only in the last 200
years.)

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by jerryfriedman
More recently, lots of final /r/s have been lost in some dialects
of English, except before a vowel in the next word--

That is a more general change. I took Peter's question to be about
word-final consonants. Also, it's not a straight loss. Take
"weird". That is [wɪəd] in conservative Received Pronunciation.
The r isn't lost, it is vocalized. There is a secondary change
where the resulting diphthong is smoothed, giving [wɪːd], which,
if isn't considered RP yet, will be soon. Equivalent changes are
documented for [ɛə] > [ɛː] and [ɔə] > [ɔː], which raises the question
whether this didn't happen for all vowels, e.g. "hard" [hɑrd] >
?[hɑəd] > [hɑːd]. Compare r vocalization in German and Danish.

Post by jerryfriedman
a similar pattern to what happened in French,

To me it doesn't look at all similar to the historic partial loss
of French final r, e.g. in the -er infinitives, nor the sometime
deletion of final [r] and [l] after obstruents, e.g. chambre >
chamb', table > tab'.

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Strikingly, Middle English lost final -e and, inconsistenly, -en,
which is intimately tied to the collapse of the declension system.

And lots of the conjugation system?

Yes, I guess I meant to write "inflection" there. I don't think
the conjugation system shows any additional losses, though. If you
strike -e and -en from Middle English conjugation, you end up with
the system familiar from the King James Version: 2. singular -st,
3. singular present -th, nothing else. The 2SG ending was lost
along with its pronoun. The 3SG change -th > -s is poorly understood,
but didn't add or remove any ending.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by jerryfriedman
More recently, lots of final /r/s have been lost in some dialects
of English, except before a vowel in the next word--

That is a more general change. I took Peter's question to be about
word-final consonants. Also, it's not a straight loss. Take
"weird". That is [wɪəd] in conservative Received Pronunciation.
The r isn't lost, it is vocalized. There is a secondary change
where the resulting diphthong is smoothed, giving [wɪːd], which,
if isn't considered RP yet, will be soon. Equivalent changes are
documented for [ɛə] > [ɛː] and [ɔə] > [ɔː], which raises the question
whether this didn't happen for all vowels, e.g. "hard" [hɑrd] >
?[hɑəd] > [hɑːd]. Compare r vocalization in German and Danish.

Post by jerryfriedman
a similar pattern to what happened in French,

To me it doesn't look at all similar to the historic partial loss
of French final r, e.g. in the -er infinitives, nor the sometime
deletion of final [r] and [l] after obstruents, e.g. chambre >
chamb', table > tab'.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant what happened to other
letters in French, notably <s>, <t>, and <z>. In fact, what
happened to French <s> has a lot of parallels to what's
happening to English <r> in non-rhotic dialects. The [r] is
lost, leaving a long vowel as you say, and then <r> is used to
write that vowel (still mostly non-standard, but there are
examples like "Burma" and "argo"). In the same way the
French [s] was lost, leaving long vowels, and then used
to write those vowels as in "resve". (Then it was removed
again and length was indicated by an accent mark.)

Of course there's a big difference, namely that lots of non-
rhotic speakers put an [r] in after those long vowels and
schwas even where there was originally no [r], and I don't
know of anything like that in French.

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Strikingly, Middle English lost final -e and, inconsistenly, -en,
which is intimately tied to the collapse of the declension system.

And lots of the conjugation system?

Yes, I guess I meant to write "inflection" there. I don't think
the conjugation system shows any additional losses, though. If you
strike -e and -en from Middle English conjugation, you end up with
the system familiar from the King James Version: 2. singular -st,
3. singular present -th, nothing else. The 2SG ending was lost
along with its pronoun. The 3SG change -th > -s is poorly understood,
but didn't add or remove any ending.

Thanks. I guess "lots" was an exaggeration.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Peter Moylan
Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language.

Okay, this opportunity is as good as any to mention something I've
been burning to post ever since I re-read it in Akire/Rosen:

Have you ever wondered why the third person plural present tense
forms of Italian verbs are so strangely stressed, e.g., pàrlano
instead of *parlàno? And where is that -o from anyway? Spanish
doesn't have it and if you look at Latin (-ant), there's no source
for it.

Oh, you haven't wondered? ;-)

Apparently Old Italian had the expected ending -an, so what happened?
The blame goes to the 'to be' word. The Latin first singular "sum"
and third plural "sunt" both ended up regularly as "son" in Old
Italian. But that was the only first person form that didn't have
-o, so eventually it picked one up, producing "sono". Now, since
the first singular and third plural had already merged, "sono" also
became the third pural. And from there the -o spread to the third
plural of all other verbs, but as a latecomer it didn't move the
stress.

It's an intriguing explanation, especially since it includes two
developments that ran in opposite directions: First the addition
of -o from many forms to one, then the spread of -o from one form
to many. I would guess the strong overall tendency toward open
syllables in Italian had something to do with it.

[Silvano]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Peter Moylan
Some southern Italian dialects have dropped a few final vowels, but
this does not extend to northern dialects or the mainstream version of
the language.

Okay, this opportunity is as good as any to mention something I've
Have you ever wondered why the third person plural present tense
forms of Italian verbs are so strangely stressed, e.g., pàrlano
instead of *parlàno? And where is that -o from anyway? Spanish
doesn't have it and if you look at Latin (-ant), there's no source
for it.
Oh, you haven't wondered? ;-)
Apparently Old Italian had the expected ending -an, so what happened?
The blame goes to the 'to be' word. The Latin first singular "sum"
and third plural "sunt" both ended up regularly as "son" in Old
Italian. But that was the only first person form that didn't have
-o, so eventually it picked one up, producing "sono". Now, since
the first singular and third plural had already merged, "sono" also
became the third pural. And from there the -o spread to the third
plural of all other verbs, but as a latecomer it didn't move the
stress.

Please note, however, that the first singular and third plural present
forms merged only in "sono".

Post by Christian Weisgerber
It's an intriguing explanation, especially since it includes two
developments that ran in opposite directions: First the addition
of -o from many forms to one, then the spread of -o from one form
to many. I would guess the strong overall tendency toward open
syllables in Italian had something to do with it.

I would guess the strong overall tendency toward open syllables in
Italian was the main reason for this development.

[Snidely]

Christian Weisgerber suggested that ...

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Have you ever wondered why the third person plural present tense
forms of Italian verbs are so strangely stressed, e.g., pàrlano
instead of *parlàno? And where is that -o from anyway?

So that was an example where something was added at the end of
words. I don't intend this as an invalidation of the general
observation that there is a longtime trend of phonetic erosion, but
I want to show that actual language history is complex and circuitous.
Here's another one. From the King James Version, you may be familiar
with the second person singular indicative ending -(e)st (-t in
some verbs), "thou thinkest" etc. German also has -st across the
second person singular. Clearly, -st is an old 2SG marker...
... Except, Slavic has -š there. Latin, not a language to drop final
-t, has -s. Even Gothic has -s, and if you look at the variants
in early Old English and Old High German, the original 2SG ending
is also -s.
Where did the -t come from? There are two hypotheses. One, dismissed
by Ringe (and I'm skeptical as well), is from missegmentation when
the subject pronoun (tu ~ þu) followed the verb. The other involves
the appearance of -s-t due to sound changes in some preterite-present
verbs, reanalysis as -st, and spread to other verbs. Remarkably,
this appears to have happened independently in both English and
German.

I relate all this discussion to what Charlton Laird (sr, IIRC)
considered two fundamental principles of language change:

1) People are lazy, leading to simplification.
2) People are inventive, leading to new words and new constructions.


/dps

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Christian Weisgerber
Have you ever wondered why the third person plural present tense
forms of Italian verbs are so strangely stressed, e.g., pàrlano
instead of *parlàno? And where is that -o from anyway?

So that was an example where something was added at the end of
words. I don't intend this as an invalidation of the general
observation that there is a longtime trend of phonetic erosion, but
I want to show that actual language history is complex and circuitous.

Here's another one. From the King James Version, you may be familiar
with the second person singular indicative ending -(e)st (-t in
some verbs), "thou thinkest" etc. German also has -st across the
second person singular. Clearly, -st is an old 2SG marker...

... Except, Slavic has -š there. Latin, not a language to drop final
-t, has -s. Even Gothic has -s, and if you look at the variants
in early Old English and Old High German, the original 2SG ending
is also -s.

Where did the -t come from? There are two hypotheses. One, dismissed
by Ringe (and I'm skeptical as well), is from missegmentation when
the subject pronoun (tu ~ þu) followed the verb. The other involves
the appearance of -s-t due to sound changes in some preterite-present
verbs, reanalysis as -st, and spread to other verbs. Remarkably,
this appears to have happened independently in both English and
German.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Peter Moylan
Those are all examples in Romance languages. I can't think of any
examples in Germanic languages, and I don't know enough about other
language families.

I don't remember all the examples, but when the people in
de.etc.sprache.deutsch write spoken German, they write "ham" statt
"haben" - eh, in stead of, that is. They sometimes write something that
I can't understand at all, but that usually will be a dialect.

[Helmut Richter]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I don't remember all the examples, but when the people in
de.etc.sprache.deutsch write spoken German, they write "ham" statt
"haben" - eh, in stead of, that is.

This is a very natural process which took place in many areas in Germany,
both in the S and in the E; I am not sure whether in the SW as well.

Step 1: replace -en by syllabic -n (still same number of syllables):

haben → habn, leben → lebn, kommen → kommn, schaffen → schaffn,
reden → redn, sagen → sagn, packen → packn, hängen → hängn [hɛŋn]

Step 2: assimilate this -n to become homorganic with the preceding sound:

habn → habm, lebn → lebm, kommn → kommm [kɔmː], schaffn → schaffm,
redn = redn, sagn → sagŋ, packn → packŋ, [hɛŋn] → [hɛŋː]

The long nasals allow to distinguish standard "kommen/hängen" from
standard "komm!/häng!".

Step 3: merge the two final consonants if the first one is a lax plosive:

habm → ham, lebm → leːm, redn → reːn, sagn → saːŋ

This explains "haben/leben" becoming "ham/leːm" which appear in
colloquial speech nearly all over Germany.

Especially Bavarian has another interesting feature: where step 3
makes no difference, the final nasal is often changed to [a], in
particular, long nasals must be removed.

Step 4 (Bavarian):

kommm [kɔmː] → kemma (mand.), packŋ → packa (opt.), [hɛŋː] → henga (mand.)

Of course, the extent to which these steps apply is very different across
Germany. If step 1 is omitted, the language sounds overly distinct, and step
2 as well sounds natural in colloquial speech. I would not hesitate to teach
foreigners to apply these two steps as normal pronunciation.

--
Helmut Richter

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Helmut Richter
This is a very natural process which took place in many areas in Germany,
both in the S and in the E; I am not sure whether in the SW as well.

Your description could be about Danish, except of course for the German
words. We pronounce "gennem" as "ge?m", and that applies to the standard
pronunciation (rigsdansk). The m is actually just a grunt with closed
lips.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Helmut Richter
This is a very natural process which took place in many areas in Germany,
both in the S and in the E; I am not sure whether in the SW as well.

Your description could be about Danish, except of course for the German
words. We pronounce "gennem" as "ge?m", and that applies to the standard
pronunciation (rigsdansk). The m is actually just a grunt with closed
lips.

Isn't all of Danish?

Jan

[Adam Funk]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
Your description could be about Danish, except of course for the German
words. We pronounce "gennem" as "ge?m", and that applies to the standard
pronunciation (rigsdansk). The m is actually just a grunt with closed
lips.

Isn't all of Danish?

You'll all have to switch to English to prevent the collapse of
society!

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Adam Funk

http://youtu.be/ykj3Kpm3O0g

You'll all have to switch to English to prevent the collapse of
society!

We're a long way already.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by jerryfriedman

El Sun, 01 Sep 2024 09:49:19 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan
As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In fact,
most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That's how people speak here. "Los olivos" are "loh'holivoh".

Also here in el Norte (of New Mexico). People even say "ahina"
for "así", which people from other parts of the Spanish-speaking
world think is funny.

Does the dropping of the final S go back to Greek or Hebrew?

I don't see why it would. French seems more likely, except
that the part of Spain where s-dropping started is the
southern part. I'd guess it was just the same process that
happened in French.

(Were final /s/es dropped in Hebrew? I know some final /t/s
or maybe /T/s were.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[LionelEdwards]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
I have just encountered the word "somewheres" in my reading.
(Although not for the first time.) This word does not exist in
Australian English. I gather that it is used by some North
Americans, possibly a minority.

As soon as I read that, I heard Judy Garland in my head. I'm glad
she didn't add an s. I assume it's a voiced s. So Judy would have
sung "zover the rainbow".

As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In fact,
most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That make sense. I had thought "somwheres" sound Appalachian, and
"a ways away" is a well-known REM phrase. De-emphasising the final
's' solves everything.

[LionelEdwards]

Post by LionelEdwards

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
I have just encountered the word "somewheres" in my reading.
(Although not for the first time.) This word does not exist in
Australian English. I gather that it is used by some North
Americans, possibly a minority.

As soon as I read that, I heard Judy Garland in my head. I'm glad
she didn't add an s. I assume it's a voiced s. So Judy would have
sung "zover the rainbow".

As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In fact,
most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That make sense. I had thought "somwheres" sound Appalachian, and
"a ways away" is a well-known REM phrase. De-emphasising the final
's' solves everything.

The "well-known REM phrase" oft repeated:

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Paul Carmichael

Post by Peter Moylan
I have just encountered the word "somewheres" in my reading.
(Although not for the first time.) This word does not exist in
Australian English. I gather that it is used by some North
Americans, possibly a minority.

As soon as I read that, I heard Judy Garland in my head. I'm
glad she didn't add an s. I assume it's a voiced s. So Judy would
have sung "zover the rainbow".

As a singer, I have been told to de-emphasise any final 's'. In
fact, most of the choir is asked to leave it silent.

That make sense. I had thought "somwheres" sound Appalachian, and "a
ways away" is a well-known REM phrase. De-emphasising the final 's'
solves everything.

Just to clarify: my choir doesn't sing about rainbows, and there's
certainly nothing in our repertoire that includes "somewheres". There
are, however, plenty of other words in songs that end with 's', and in
choral singing you get a hissing effect if an 's' is too prominent.

[bertietaylor]

Hopefully, somewheres my love.