What does "Biscaya" mean?

[qquito]

Hello, All:

"Biscaya" (

) is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of James Last's big band.

I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

So could anyone explain the meaning of "Biscaya"?

Thank you!

--Roland

[Marius Hancu]

"Biscaya" http://youtu.be/z-f7UWa4UYI is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of James Last's big band.
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.
So could anyone explain the meaning of "Biscaya"?

I don't know the song, but:
---
Biscay (Basque: Bizkaia (official), Spanish: Vizcaya) is a province of
the Basque Country in Spain. Its capital and largest city is Bilbao.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscay
---

Marius Hancu

[qquito]

Post by Marius Hancu

Post by qquito
So could anyone explain the meaning of "Biscaya"?

---
Biscay (Basque: Bizkaia (official), Spanish: Vizcaya) is a province of
the Basque Country in Spain. Its capital and largest city is Bilbao.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscay
---
Marius Hancu

But the word "Biscaya" adds an "a" to the English name "Biscay".

--Roland

[pauljk]

Post by qquito

Post by Marius Hancu

Post by qquito
So could anyone explain the meaning of "Biscaya"?

---
Biscay (Basque: Bizkaia (official), Spanish: Vizcaya) is a province of
the Basque Country in Spain. Its capital and largest city is
Bilbao.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscay
---
Marius Hancu

But the word "Biscaya" adds an "a" to the English name "Biscay".

No it doesn't.
The ultimate -a was there already in the original Basque.
(e.g. Spelling Bizchaya attested in 1141.)

pjk

[David Hatunen]

news:82927ef8-0462-4ee0-

Post by qquito

Post by Marius Hancu

Post by qquito
So could anyone explain the meaning of "Biscaya"?

---
Biscay (Basque: Bizkaia (official), Spanish: Vizcaya) is a province of
the Basque Country in Spain. Its capital and largest city is
Bilbao.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscay ---
Marius Hancu

But the word "Biscaya" adds an "a" to the English name "Biscay".

No it doesn't.
The ultimate -a was there already in the original Basque. (e.g. Spelling
Bizchaya attested in 1141.)

Are we starting another interminable thread on how language X doesn't
spell pronounce place names

[David Hatunen]

Post by David Hatunen
Are we starting another interminable thread on how language X doesn't
spell pronounce place names

I have no idea what bit bucket contains the last phrase I wrote, but it
was essentially "... the way the locals do"?

[mm]

Post by qquito

Post by Marius Hancu

Post by qquito
So could anyone explain the meaning of "Biscaya"?

---
Biscay (Basque: Bizkaia (official), Spanish: Vizcaya) is a province of
the Basque Country in Spain. Its capital and largest city is Bilbao.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscay
---
Marius Hancu

But the word "Biscaya" adds an "a" to the English name "Biscay".

Or maybe the English name Biscay drops an "a" from the name "Biscaya".
It's a thicket.

Post by qquito
--Roland

[pauljk]

Post by qquito
"Biscaya" ( http://youtu.be/z-f7UWa4UYI ) is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of James Last's big band.
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

How about Basque, German, Spanish, Gaulish, etc. ?

Post by qquito
So could anyone explain the meaning of "Biscaya"?
Thank you!
--Roland

Have you tried Google?

Google lists many relevant hits, such as:

Biscay (Bizkaia, Vizcaya) is a province of the Basque Country in Spain.

Die Biskaya, auch Golf von Biskaya genannt (französisch Golfe de Gascogne,
baskisch Bizkaiko Golkoa, spanisch Golfo de Vizcaya, galicisch Golfo de Biscaia,
lateinisch Sinus Cantabricus), ist eine Bucht des Atlantischen Ozeans,
die sich von Galicien bis zur Bretagne entlang der Nordküste Spaniens und
der Westküste Frankreichs erstreckt. Dieses Seegebiet ist für schlechtes Wetter,
starke Stürme und extremen Seegang bekannt.

Etymology of Biscaya:
It is nowadays accepted in linguistics (Koldo Mitxelena, etc.) that Bizkaia,
the original Basque term, is a cognate of bizkar (cf. Biscarrosse in Aquitaine),
with both place-name variants well attested in the whole Basque Country
and out meaning 'low ridge' or 'prominence'
(Iheldo bizchaya attested in 1141 for the hill Igeldo in Donostia).

pjk

[John Varela]

Post by pauljk

Post by qquito
"Biscaya" ( http://youtu.be/z-f7UWa4UYI ) is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of James Last's big band.
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

How about Basque, German, Spanish, Gaulish, etc. ?

Evidently he doesn't know any of those languages.

Post by pauljk
Biscay (Bizkaia, Vizcaya) is a province of the Basque Country in Spain.
Die Biskaya, auch Golf von Biskaya genannt (französisch Golfe de Gascogne,
baskisch Bizkaiko Golkoa, spanisch Golfo de Vizcaya, galicisch Golfo de Biscaia,
lateinisch Sinus Cantabricus), ist eine Bucht des Atlantischen Ozeans,
die sich von Galicien bis zur Bretagne entlang der Nordküste Spaniens und
der Westküste Frankreichs erstreckt. Dieses Seegebiet ist für schlechtes Wetter,
starke Stürme und extremen Seegang bekannt.
It is nowadays accepted in linguistics (Koldo Mitxelena, etc.) that Bizkaia,
the original Basque term, is a cognate of bizkar (cf. Biscarrosse in Aquitaine),
with both place-name variants well attested in the whole Basque Country
and out meaning 'low ridge' or 'prominence'
(Iheldo bizchaya attested in 1141 for the hill Igeldo in Donostia).

It appears that Biscaya/Viscaya is a place on land, and the body of
water is named after the nearby land. Bay of Biscay, Gulf of Mexico,
Straight of Malacca, etc.

[Helmut Richter]

Post by qquito
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

Look into the links to other languages in the article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscay. You see that in most languages there,
Biscaya or Viscaya ends with -a and in the most remaining languages with
-e. The form "Biscay" ist restricted to English and Turkish. So, what is
your question?

[qquito]

Post by qquito
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

Look into the links to other languages in the articlehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscay. You see that in most languages there,
Biscaya or Viscaya ends with -a and in the most remaining languages with
-e. The form "Biscay" ist restricted to English and Turkish. So, what is
your question?
Helmut Richter

Before I posted my question, I had done what you suggested. I checked
all the major European languages but left a few unchecked. And now I
checked again. Well, of all the languages available for the entry
"Biscay", only one of them is "Biscaya", the one I am asking about,
and it is Swedish (Svenska).

But this leads to another question: Why did James Last use the Swedish
version (Biscaya) of the name "Biscay" instead of the German version,
"Bizkaia"?

--Roland

[pauljk]

Post by qquito

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by qquito
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

Look into the links to other languages in the
articlehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscay. You see that in most languages there,
Biscaya or Viscaya ends with -a and in the most remaining languages with
-e. The form "Biscay" ist restricted to English and Turkish. So, what is
your question?
Helmut Richter

Before I posted my question, I had done what you suggested. I checked
all the major European languages but left a few unchecked. And now I
checked again. Well, of all the languages available for the entry
"Biscay", only one of them is "Biscaya", the one I am asking about,
and it is Swedish (Svenska).

You seem to be a somewhat inept Google user.
You also seem to be unable to read already existing answers to your question.

Try the following articles suggested by Google:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscaya

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ibjVVN7tGEAJ:de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskaya+Biscaya&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz

Post by qquito
But this leads to another question: Why did James Last use the Swedish
version (Biscaya) of the name "Biscay" instead of the German version,
"Bizkaia"?

If you find why Beatles "misspelled" Beetles you may understand
why Last "misspelled" Biscay.

I offer some possible answers:
- because they wanted to
- because they could
- because it made sense to them
- because they wanted a unique but easy to remember name
it could be all of the above

pjk

[Helmut Richter]

Post by qquito

Post by qquito
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

Look into the links to other languages in the articlehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biscay. You see that in most languages there,
Biscaya or Viscaya ends with -a and in the most remaining languages with
-e. The form "Biscay" ist restricted to English and Turkish. So, what is
your question?

So far, I considered the ending. The version without ending is only
English and Turkish (within Europe).

Post by qquito
But this leads to another question: Why did James Last use the Swedish
version (Biscaya) of the name "Biscay" instead of the German version,
"Bizkaia"?

Note the notes

* Biskaya ist außerdem auch der Name einer Provinz des
Baskenlandes (Provinz Bizkaia); Provinzhauptstadt ist Bilbao.

* Der Titel Biscaya (1982) ist einer der größten Erfolge von James Last.

in http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskaya. In other words: the normal German
spelling of the historical region and the marine region named after it is
"Biskaya". Only the administrative province is spelt "Bizkaia" in the
German WP following Basque standards.

So the question boils down to why James Last replaced -k- by -c-. Well,
such variations are common in German with more -c- in the nineteenth
century and more -k- later, perhaps with a reverse trend now. James Last
may either not have kept up to date about spelling standards or he may
have chosen the version which looked slightly less homespun to him.

[Helmut Richter]

Post by Helmut Richter
in http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskaya. In other words: the normal German
spelling of the historical region and the marine region named after it is
"Biskaya". Only the administrative province is spelt "Bizkaia" in the
German WP following Basque standards.

Sorry, I cannot resist quoting a limerick by Frorath and Bungter:

Ein Bergsteiger aus der Biskaya,
der wollte auf den Himalaya.
Als er in Lhasa
das Ding von nah sah,
da sagte er leise: "Au, weia!"

[qquito]

......
So the question boils down to why James Last replaced -k- by -c-. Well,
such variations are common in German with more -c- in the nineteenth
century and more -k- later, perhaps with a reverse trend now. James Last
may either not have kept up to date about spelling standards or he may
have chosen the version which looked slightly less homespun to him.
--
Helmut Richter

Thank you for your reply!

[Helmut Richter]

Post by Helmut Richter
So the question boils down to why James Last replaced -k- by -c-. Well,
such variations are common in German with more -c- in the nineteenth
century and more -k- later, perhaps with a reverse trend now.

Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunction
with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier -> Klavier, spaciren
-> spazieren, Caesur -> Zäsur, Bureau -> Büro, Couvert -> Kuvert (many
of the French-origin ones have retained their spelling in Switzerland
until now).

In the 20th century, the process of using a more German-like spelling was
much slower: Friseur -> Frisör is not generally accepted, Clown -> Klaun
was a nice try in a dictionary but not followed by anybody. Moreover, most
newer loans were from English whose phonology and spelling is so much
different from German that German-like spelling (Manager -> Menedscher)
looks too weird for German eyes to be accepted; in other languages such
adaptations are in fact used (hu:menedzser, sw:meneja), though.

What I called a "reverse trend" is mainly in science (Äther -> Ether,
Zäsium -> Caesium) and in geography (Dardschiling -> Darjeeling, Wagadugu
-> Ouagadougou, Peking -> Beijing), both to make German look more
international. In the first example, even the pronunciation has changed,
under the assumption that it is regular: Äther [E:t6] -> Ether [e:t6].

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by Helmut Richter
So the question boils down to why James Last replaced -k- by -c-. Well,
such variations are common in German with more -c- in the nineteenth
century and more -k- later, perhaps with a reverse trend now.

Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunction
with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier -> Klavier, spaciren
-> spazieren, Caesur -> Zäsur, Bureau -> Büro, Couvert -> Kuvert (many
of the French-origin ones have retained their spelling in Switzerland
until now).

Wasn't the recent international reform agreement of 2001 or whenever
supposed to fix that?

Post by Helmut Richter
In the 20th century, the process of using a more German-like spelling was
much slower: Friseur -> Frisör is not generally accepted, Clown -> Klaun
was a nice try in a dictionary but not followed by anybody. Moreover, most
newer loans were from English whose phonology and spelling is so much
different from German that German-like spelling (Manager -> Menedscher)
looks too weird for German eyes to be accepted; in other languages such
adaptations are in fact used (hu:menedzser, sw:meneja), though.
What I called a "reverse trend" is mainly in science (Äther -> Ether,
Zäsium -> Caesium) and in geography (Dardschiling -> Darjeeling, Wagadugu
-> Ouagadougou, Peking -> Beijing), both to make German look more
international. In the first example, even the pronunciation has changed,
under the assumption that it is regular: Äther [E:t6] -> Ether [e:t6].

Those are somewhat different things -- there's supposed to be
international agreement about technical terminology; and for
geographic names there's a tendency to follow the preferences of the
nations involved. (The US State Department officially switched to
pinyin not long after Nixon went to China in 1972.)

[Adam Funk]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Helmut Richter
What I called a "reverse trend" is mainly in science (Äther -> Ether,
Zäsium -> Caesium) and in geography (Dardschiling -> Darjeeling, Wagadugu
-> Ouagadougou, Peking -> Beijing), both to make German look more
international. In the first example, even the pronunciation has changed,
under the assumption that it is regular: Äther [E:t6] -> Ether [e:t6].

Those are somewhat different things -- there's supposed to be
international agreement about technical terminology;

SI has "metre", "litre", and "ampere", but I've seen "meter", "liter",
and "ampère"...

[James Silverton]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Helmut Richter
What I called a "reverse trend" is mainly in science (Äther
-> Ether, Zäsium -> Caesium) and in geography (Dardschiling
-> Darjeeling, Wagadugu -> Ouagadougou, Peking -> Beijing),
both to make German look more international. In the first
example, even the pronunciation has changed, under the
assumption that it is regular: Äther [E:t6] -> Ether [e:t6].

Those are somewhat different things -- there's supposed to be
international agreement about technical terminology;

SI has "metre", "litre", and "ampere", but I've seen "meter",
"liter", and "ampère"...

I would invariably use meter or liter and omit the grave accent on
ampere and I think most US scientists would do the same. My Larousse
gives only "gramme" but, again "gram" seems invariant in US english.

[bob]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by Helmut Richter
So the question boils down to why James Last replaced -k- by -c-. Well,
such variations are common in German with more -c- in the nineteenth
century and more -k- later, perhaps with a reverse trend now.

Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunction
with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier -> Klavier, spaciren
-> spazieren, Caesur -> Zäsur, Bureau -> Büro, Couvert -> Kuvert (many
of the French-origin ones have retained their spelling in Switzerland
until now).

Wasn't the recent international reform agreement of 2001 or whenever
supposed to fix that?

Perhaps, but nobody appears to have told the Swiss about it, as they
are still content to use the French spellling for a lot of French
derived words (and use a lot more French loan words in general). I
think it comes from having a bunch of francophones in their contry.

Robin (living in Switzerland)

[Urs Beeli]

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]

Post by bob

Post by Peter T. Daniels

So the question boils down to why James Last replaced -k- by -c-. Wel=

l,

Post by Peter T. Daniels

such variations are common in German with more -c- in the nineteenth
century and more -k- later, perhaps with a reverse trend now.

Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunct=

ion

Post by Peter T. Daniels

with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier -> Klavier, spacire=

n

Post by Peter T. Daniels

-> spazieren, Caesur -> Z=E4sur, Bureau -> B=FCro, Couvert -> Kuvert (m=

any

Post by Peter T. Daniels

of the French-origin ones have retained their spelling in Switzerland
until now).

Wasn't the recent international reform agreement of 2001 or whenever
supposed to fix that?

Perhaps, but nobody appears to have told the Swiss about it

In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

Post by bob
as they are still content to use the French spellling for a lot of French
derived words (and use a lot more French loan words in general). I think
it comes from having a bunch of francophones in their contry.

That it does!

Cheers
/urs

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Urs Beeli
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]

Fixed, because it's unspeakably rude to cut most of the participants
in the discussion out of the thread.

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by Peter T. Daniels

So the question boils down to why James Last replaced -k- by -c-. Wel=

 l,

Post by Peter T. Daniels

such variations are common in German with more -c- in the nineteenth
century and more -k- later, perhaps with a reverse trend now.

Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunct=

 ion

Post by Peter T. Daniels

with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier -> Klavier, spacire=

 n

Post by Peter T. Daniels

-> spazieren, Caesur -> Z=E4sur, Bureau -> B=FCro, Couvert -> Kuvert (m=

 any

Post by Peter T. Daniels

of the French-origin ones have retained their spelling in Switzerland
until now).

Wasn't the recent international reform agreement of 2001 or whenever
supposed to fix that?

 Perhaps, but nobody appears to have told the Swiss about it

In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

And that was a rational decision because ...?

Post by Urs Beeli

 as they are still content to use the French spellling for a lot of French
 derived words (and use a lot more French loan words in general).  I think
 it comes from having a bunch of francophones in their contry.

That it does!

Ok, so Canada should have a different standard for spelling English
from the UK or the US?

[Pat Durkin]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Urs Beeli
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]

Fixed, because it's unspeakably rude to cut most of the participants
in the discussion out of the thread.

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by bob

Post by Peter T. Daniels

So the question boils down to why James Last replaced -k- by -c-. Wel=

l,

Post by Peter T. Daniels

such variations are common in German with more -c- in the nineteenth
century and more -k- later, perhaps with a reverse trend now.

Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunct=

ion

Post by Peter T. Daniels

with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier ->
Klavier, spacire=

n

Post by Peter T. Daniels

-> spazieren, Caesur -> Z=E4sur, Bureau -> B=FCro, Couvert -> Kuvert (m=

any

Post by Peter T. Daniels

of the French-origin ones have retained their spelling in Switzerland
until now).

Wasn't the recent international reform agreement of 2001 or whenever
supposed to fix that?

Perhaps, but nobody appears to have told the Swiss about it

In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

And that was a rational decision because ...?

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by bob
as they are still content to use the French spellling for a lot of French
derived words (and use a lot more French loan words in general).
I think
it comes from having a bunch of francophones in their contry.

That it does!

Ok, so Canada should have a different standard for spelling English
from the UK or the US?

Of course...duh.

[Alan Munn]

In article

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Urs Beeli
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]

Fixed, because it's unspeakably rude to cut most of the participants
in the discussion out of the thread.

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by Peter T. Daniels

So the question boils down to why James Last replaced -k- by -c-. Wel=

 l,

Post by Peter T. Daniels

such variations are common in German with more -c- in the nineteenth
century and more -k- later, perhaps with a reverse trend now.

Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunct=

 ion

Post by Peter T. Daniels

with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier -> Klavier, spacire=

 n

Post by Peter T. Daniels

-> spazieren, Caesur -> Z=E4sur, Bureau -> B=FCro, Couvert -> Kuvert (m=

 any

Post by Peter T. Daniels

of the French-origin ones have retained their spelling in Switzerland
until now).

Wasn't the recent international reform agreement of 2001 or whenever
supposed to fix that?

 Perhaps, but nobody appears to have told the Swiss about it

In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

And that was a rational decision because ...?

Post by Urs Beeli

 as they are still content to use the French spellling for a lot of French
 derived words (and use a lot more French loan words in general).  I think
 it comes from having a bunch of francophones in their contry.

That it does!

Ok, so Canada should have a different standard for spelling English
from the UK or the US?

I don't know about 'should', but it does. (Not that Canada is much for
official language standards (at least as far as English goes)) but
Canadian spelling is a funny mixture of UK and US spelling conventions
(e.g. -our vs. -or , and -re vs. -er (as in UK), but -ize (as in US)).
I also think that many Canadians (at least those who are moderately
bilingual) tend to put accents on French names like Québec and Montréal
even when writing in English (whether this is 'correct' is debatable,
but many do.)) I can't think of any (other) words that are spelled with
a specifically French spelling in Canadian English, though. The same
people are certainly less likely to rephonologize borrowed French words
as much too (e.g. Canadians generally pronounce 'niche' as [niS] not
[nItS].) although that's obviously not a spelling issue. At least that
was my experience as an Anglophone living in Montréal.

Alan

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Urs Beeli
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]

Fixed, because it's unspeakably rude to cut most of the participants in
the discussion out of the thread.

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by Peter T. Daniels

So the question boils down to why James Last replaced -k- by -c-. Wel=

 l,

Post by Peter T. Daniels

such variations are common in German with more -c- in the
nineteenth century and more -k- later, perhaps with a reverse
trend now.

Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunct=

 ion

Post by Peter T. Daniels

with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier -> Klavier, spacire=

 n

Post by Peter T. Daniels

-> spazieren, Caesur -> Z=E4sur, Bureau -> B=FCro, Couvert -> Kuvert (m=

 any

Post by Peter T. Daniels

of the French-origin ones have retained their spelling in
Switzerland until now).

Wasn't the recent international reform agreement of 2001 or
whenever supposed to fix that?

 Perhaps, but nobody appears to have told the Swiss about it

In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for
the Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they
use.

And that was a rational decision because ...?

Probably because the Swiss wouldn't have gone along with the agreement
otherwise.

As it worked out, the Germans and Austrians barely did in practice,
anyway!

[Urs Beeli]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Urs Beeli
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]

Post by bob

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Helmut Richter
Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in
conjunction with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier ->
Klavier, spaciren -> spazieren, Caesur -> ZE4sur, Bureau -> BFCro,
Couvert -> Kuvert (many of the French-origin ones have retained
their spelling in Switzerland until now).

Wasn't the recent international reform agreement of 2001 or whenever
supposed to fix that?

Perhaps, but nobody appears to have told the Swiss about it

In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for
the Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they
use.

And that was a rational decision because ...?

Because French is one of our four national languages and we use quite a few
French loan words in both German and Swiss German (more than they do in
Germany) and most of use speak at least two of the languages (at least to
some degree) so it would look funny to us writing the French loan words in a
"germanised" way when we know how it is properly spellt in French.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by bob
as they are still content to use the French spellling for a lot of
French derived words (and use a lot more French loan words in
general). I think it comes from having a bunch of francophones in
their contry.

That it does!

Ok, so Canada should have a different standard for spelling English
from the UK or the US?

No, but maybe they pay more attention on how French loan words in English
are spellt. But then, maby they don't. I don't know.

Cheers
/urs

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by bob

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Wasn't the recent international reform agreement of 2001 or whenever
supposed to fix that?

Perhaps, but nobody appears to have told the Swiss about it

In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

Can you cite examples?

(I can't think of any offhand. That doesn't mean much, but a lot
of "general knowledge" about recent German spelling efforts falls
into the realm of urban legends, so I'm cautious.)

[Urs Beeli]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by bob

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Wasn't the recent international reform agreement of 2001 or whenever
supposed to fix that?

Perhaps, but nobody appears to have told the Swiss about it

In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

Can you cite examples?
(I can't think of any offhand. That doesn't mean much, but a lot
of "general knowledge" about recent German spelling efforts falls
into the realm of urban legends, so I'm cautious.)

I know that we retained the "right" to spell porte-monnaie (purse) instead
of the germanised version that would probably be used in Germany (and I'm
not even sure what it would be like, probably Portmonee :-) or writing
Spaghetti the Italian way (the reform proposes the in German it is written
Spagetti). Those are two examples I know of, but there are plenty (actually
I think the rule doesn't list words specifically but just grants us the
right to use the French or Italian spelling for loan words from those
languages.

Cheers
/urs

[Urs Beeli]

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by bob

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Wasn't the recent international reform agreement of 2001 or whenever
supposed to fix that?

Perhaps, but nobody appears to have told the Swiss about it

In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

Can you cite examples?
(I can't think of any offhand. That doesn't mean much, but a lot
of "general knowledge" about recent German spelling efforts falls
into the realm of urban legends, so I'm cautious.)

I know that we retained the "right" to spell porte-monnaie (purse) instead
of the germanised version that would probably be used in Germany (and I'm
not even sure what it would be like, probably Portmonee :-) or writing
Spaghetti the Italian way (the reform proposes the in German it is written
Spagetti). Those are two examples I know of, but there are plenty (actually
I think the rule doesn't list words specifically but just grants us the
right to use the French or Italian spelling for loan words from those
languages.

That was one of the things that amazed me when learning Swedish. They have
totally naturalised their French loan words. The write "miljö" insted of
"milieu"; "betong" instead of "beton", "restaurang" instead of "restaurant".

It takes some getting used to and probably makes sense if French is a
relatively distant language to your country, but would be absolutely
inconceivable in Switzerland.

Cheers
/urs

[James Hogg]

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by bob

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Wasn't the recent international reform agreement of 2001 or whenever
supposed to fix that?

Perhaps, but nobody appears to have told the Swiss about it

In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

Can you cite examples?
(I can't think of any offhand. That doesn't mean much, but a lot
of "general knowledge" about recent German spelling efforts falls
into the realm of urban legends, so I'm cautious.)

I know that we retained the "right" to spell porte-monnaie (purse) instead
of the germanised version that would probably be used in Germany (and I'm
not even sure what it would be like, probably Portmonee :-) or writing
Spaghetti the Italian way (the reform proposes the in German it is written
Spagetti). Those are two examples I know of, but there are plenty (actually
I think the rule doesn't list words specifically but just grants us the
right to use the French or Italian spelling for loan words from those
languages.

That was one of the things that amazed me when learning Swedish. They have
totally naturalised their French loan words. The write "miljö" insted of
"milieu"; "betong" instead of "beton", "restaurang" instead of "restaurant".

Norwegian does this even more consistently. What is written "genre" in
Swedish is "sjanger" in Norwegian. The sound is similar in both languages.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Urs Beeli
That was one of the things that amazed me when learning Swedish. They have
totally naturalised their French loan words. The write "miljö" insted of
"milieu"; "betong" instead of "beton", "restaurang" instead of "restaurant".

This also presupposes that the words in question have a single,
localized pronunciation. For many French loans this is not the
case across Germany, without even considering Switzerland. For
instance, I'm slightly uneasy about <Kuvert> and totally puzzled
by <Büfett> since I don't pronounce a final /t/ for either.

Heck, the rendering of French nasals isn't even consistant within my
own idiolect. I have
<Chance> /'SA~s@/
<Bonbon> /'bONbON/
<Balkon> /bal'ko:n/


[This is really off-topic in alt.usage.english.]

[Adam Funk]

Post by Urs Beeli
That was one of the things that amazed me when learning Swedish. They have
totally naturalised their French loan words. The write "miljö" insted of
"milieu"; "betong" instead of "beton", "restaurang" instead of "restaurant".

(also "buffé" & "salong")

I commented on this a few years ago during a trip to Sweden and was
told that that was the old-fashioned way to import French words, but
that modern borrowings generally retained the French spelling.

Post by Urs Beeli
It takes some getting used to and probably makes sense if French is a
relatively distant language to your country, but would be absolutely
inconceivable in Switzerland.

Good point.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Urs Beeli
I know that we retained the "right" to spell porte-monnaie (purse) instead
of the germanised version that would probably be used in Germany (and I'm
not even sure what it would be like, probably Portmonee :-) or writing
Spaghetti the Italian way (the reform proposes the in German it is written
Spagetti).

Portmonee/Portemonnaie and Spagetti/Spaghetti are alternative
spellings. Either variant is available everywhere.

Post by Urs Beeli
Those are two examples I know of, but there are plenty (actually

Actually, there are not.

Post by Urs Beeli
I think the rule doesn't list words specifically but just grants us the
right to use the French or Italian spelling for loan words from those
languages.

There is no such rule.

[Urs Beeli]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Urs Beeli
I know that we retained the "right" to spell porte-monnaie (purse) instead
of the germanised version that would probably be used in Germany (and I'm
not even sure what it would be like, probably Portmonee :-) or writing
Spaghetti the Italian way (the reform proposes the in German it is written
Spagetti).

Portmonee/Portemonnaie and Spagetti/Spaghetti are alternative
spellings. Either variant is available everywhere.

Thanks, I hadn't realised that.

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Urs Beeli
Those are two examples I know of, but there are plenty (actually

Actually, there are not.

Post by Urs Beeli
I think the rule doesn't list words specifically but just grants us the
right to use the French or Italian spelling for loan words from those
languages.

There is no such rule.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Cheers
/urs

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Urs Beeli
In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

Here are the official texts:

Rules:
http://www.ids-mannheim.de/service/reform/regeln2006.pdf
Word list:
http://www.ids-mannheim.de/service/reform/woerterverzeichnis2006.pdf

And here is the _complete_ list of (optionally) divergent Swiss
spellings from the word list:

Brezel Bretzel (Swiss)
Büfett Buffet (Austrian, Swiss)
Check, Scheck Cheque (Swiss)
Marone Maroni (Austrian/Swiss also), Marroni (Swiss also)
- Maturand (Swiss), Maturant (Austrian)
Müsli Müesli (Swiss)
Rendezvous Rendez-vous (Swiss)
Servela Cervelat (Swiss also)
Trasse Trassee (Swiss)
Usance Usanz (Swiss)
- Zieger (Austrian), Ziger (Swiss)

This is a motley list, containing German words, French words, and
actual lexical differences.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Urs Beeli
In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

Rules:http://www.ids-mannheim.de/service/reform/regeln2006.pdf
Word list:http://www.ids-mannheim.de/service/reform/woerterverzeichnis2006.pdf
And here is the _complete_ list of (optionally) divergent Swiss
Brezel          Bretzel (Swiss)
B fett          Buffet (Austrian, Swiss)
Check, Scheck   Cheque (Swiss)
Marone          Maroni (Austrian/Swiss also), Marroni (Swiss also)
-               Maturand (Swiss), Maturant (Austrian)
M sli           M esli (Swiss)
Rendezvous      Rendez-vous (Swiss)
Servela         Cervelat (Swiss also)
Trasse          Trassee (Swiss)
Usance          Usanz (Swiss)
-               Zieger (Austrian), Ziger (Swiss)
This is a motley list, containing German words, French words, and
actual lexical differences.

Friseur, for one, isn't here.

[Urs Beeli]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for=

the

Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

Rules:http://www.ids-mannheim.de/service/reform/regeln2006.pdf
Word list:http://www.ids-mannheim.de/service/reform/woerterverzeichnis200=

6.pdf

And here is the _complete_ list of (optionally) divergent Swiss
Brezel =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Bretzel (Swiss)
B fett =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Buffet (Austrian, Swiss)
Check, Scheck =A0 Cheque (Swiss)
Marone =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Maroni (Austrian/Swiss also), Marroni (Swiss al=

so)

- =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Maturand (Swiss), Maturant (Austrian)
M sli =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 M esli (Swiss)
Rendezvous =A0 =A0 =A0Rendez-vous (Swiss)
Servela =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Cervelat (Swiss also)
Trasse =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Trassee (Swiss)
Usance =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Usanz (Swiss)
- =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Zieger (Austrian), Ziger (Swiss)
This is a motley list, containing German words, French words, and
actual lexical differences.

Friseur, for one, isn't here.

Checking the list of words you find the entry:

Frisör, Friseur

without specifying that the French form is limited to a specific country.
Apparently the original form is even allowed in Germany, even if probably
rarely used.

Cheers
/urs

[Helmut Richter]

Post by Urs Beeli
Frisör, Friseur
without specifying that the French form is limited to a specific country.
Apparently the original form is even allowed in Germany, even if probably
rarely used.

I consider "Friseur" quite normal in Germany as well. "Frisör" is slowly
getting more used in Germany but is far from replacing "Friseur". I wonder
whether it is used in Switzerland at all, or whether they prefer "Coiffeur".

An original spelling which has survived in Switzerland but hardly so in
Germany is "Bureau". The same with "Cousine" vs. "Kusine", while the
Cousine's brother, the Cousin, cannot be spelt in a Germanised spelling
because of the nasal which is foreign to German.

[Urs Beeli]

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by Urs Beeli
Frisör, Friseur
without specifying that the French form is limited to a specific country.
Apparently the original form is even allowed in Germany, even if probably
rarely used.

I consider "Friseur" quite normal in Germany as well. "Frisör" is slowly
getting more used in Germany but is far from replacing "Friseur". I wonder
whether it is used in Switzerland at all, or whether they prefer "Coiffeur".

Yes, we do rather call it Coiffeur instead (and I have yet to see "Coifför"
in anything but a humourous expression :).

Post by Helmut Richter
An original spelling which has survived in Switzerland but hardly so in
Germany is "Bureau".

Actually, even though it can still be seen occasionally, I would consider it
slightly old fashioned, it is mostly spellt Büro here, too.

Post by Helmut Richter
The same with "Cousine" vs. "Kusine", while the Cousine's brother, the
Cousin, cannot be spelt in a Germanised spelling because of the nasal
which is foreign to German.

Naw, that is definitely spellt with C, not K, in Switzerland.

Cheers
/urs

[Helmut Richter]

Post by Urs Beeli
Yes, we do rather call it Coiffeur instead (and I have yet to see "Coifför"
in anything but a humourous expression :).

You have to make up your mind: either "Coiffeur" or "Quafför".

[António Marques]

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Urs Beeli
In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

Here are the official texts: (...)
And here is the _complete_ list of (optionally) divergent Swiss
spellings from the word list: (...)

Friseur, for one, isn't here.

Frisör, Friseur
without specifying that the French form is limited to a specific country.
Apparently the original form is even allowed in Germany, even if probably
rarely used.

If you've gone so far in accepting alternate spellings within the same
country, why not go all the way and accept all alternatives everywhere, so
that the list of (optionally) divergent Swiss spellings isn't even needed?

[Urs Beeli]

Post by António Marques

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Urs Beeli
In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

Here are the official texts: (...)
And here is the _complete_ list of (optionally) divergent Swiss
spellings from the word list: (...)

Friseur, for one, isn't here.

Frisör, Friseur
without specifying that the French form is limited to a specific country.
Apparently the original form is even allowed in Germany, even if probably
rarely used.

If you've gone so far in accepting alternate spellings within the same
country, why not go all the way and accept all alternatives everywhere, so
that the list of (optionally) divergent Swiss spellings isn't even needed?

A very good question to which I don't have an answer (I hadn't realised that
the alternate spellings for most words were accepted everywhere, not just in
Switzerland until that was pointed out to me).

Cheers
/urs

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by António Marques
If you've gone so far in accepting alternate spellings within the same
country, why not go all the way and accept all alternatives everywhere, so
that the list of (optionally) divergent Swiss spellings isn't even needed?

I don't know the rationale.

My *guess* is that this is actually the result of a descriptive
approach based on corpus research.

[Urs Beeli]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Urs Beeli
In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

http://www.ids-mannheim.de/service/reform/regeln2006.pdf
http://www.ids-mannheim.de/service/reform/woerterverzeichnis2006.pdf
And here is the _complete_ list of (optionally) divergent Swiss
Brezel Bretzel (Swiss)
Büfett Buffet (Austrian, Swiss)
Check, Scheck Cheque (Swiss)
Marone Maroni (Austrian/Swiss also), Marroni (Swiss also)
- Maturand (Swiss), Maturant (Austrian)
Müsli Müesli (Swiss)
Rendezvous Rendez-vous (Swiss)
Servela Cervelat (Swiss also)
Trasse Trassee (Swiss)
Usance Usanz (Swiss)
- Zieger (Austrian), Ziger (Swiss)
This is a motley list, containing German words, French words, and
actual lexical differences.

Thanks for posting this. At first I was a bit irritated about not finding
the two examples I had given up-thread, but when searching for them, found
that the list allows for two forms of the same word in quite a lot of cases,
withouth specifying that the second form is the "Swiss" form exclusively.

So I guess for most loan words, the form as spellt in the original language
as well as the "Germanised" form are both officially correct. I had
mistakenly thought that the original form was only correct in Switzerland.

Thanks for clearing this up..

Cheers
/urs

[António Marques]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Urs Beeli
In fact, the agreement contains a number of exceptions specifically for the
Swiss so they can keep the French spelling for the loan words they use.

http://www.ids-mannheim.de/service/reform/regeln2006.pdf
http://www.ids-mannheim.de/service/reform/woerterverzeichnis2006.pdf
And here is the _complete_ list of (optionally) divergent Swiss
Brezel Bretzel (Swiss)
Büfett Buffet (Austrian, Swiss)
Check, Scheck Cheque (Swiss)
Marone Maroni (Austrian/Swiss also), Marroni (Swiss also)
- Maturand (Swiss), Maturant (Austrian)
Müsli Müesli (Swiss)
Rendezvous Rendez-vous (Swiss)
Servela Cervelat (Swiss also)
Trasse Trassee (Swiss)
Usance Usanz (Swiss)
- Zieger (Austrian), Ziger (Swiss)
This is a motley list, containing German words, French words, and
actual lexical differences.

What about those Kuverts?

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by António Marques

Post by Christian Weisgerber
http://www.ids-mannheim.de/service/reform/woerterverzeichnis2006.pdf
And here is the _complete_ list of (optionally) divergent Swiss
spellings from the word list: [...]

What about those Kuverts?

"Kuvert" is listed without alternative.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Christian Weisgerber
And here is the _complete_ list of (optionally) divergent Swiss
Brezel Bretzel (Swiss)
Büfett Buffet (Austrian, Swiss)

Are those last two pronounced differently?

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Christian Weisgerber
And here is the _complete_ list of (optionally) divergent Swiss
Brezel Bretzel (Swiss)
Büfett Buffet (Austrian, Swiss)

Are those last two pronounced differently?

Yes, that would be /bI.'fEt/ vs. /bI.'fe:/ (or possibly /by'fE/,
if somebody uses the actual French pronunciation). Since /bI.'fEt/
doesn't sound remotely acceptable to me, I'm quite puzzled by
<Büfett>. No idea where they pronounce it like that. Somewhere
up north, I guess.

Similary, <Brezel> vs. <Bretzel> reflects a distinction between
/e:/ and /E/ in what you consider as standard pronunciation. Since
I have /E/ there, I'm not very happy with <Brezel> either.

I'm about 200 km north of Switzerland, fwiw.

[naive user]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Christian Weisgerber
And here is the _complete_ list of (optionally) divergent Swiss
Brezel          Bretzel (Swiss)
Büfett          Buffet (Austrian, Swiss)

Are those last two pronounced differently?

Yes, that would be /bI.'fEt/ vs. /bI.'fe:/ (or possibly /by'fE/,
if somebody uses the actual French pronunciation).  Since /bI.'fEt/
doesn't sound remotely acceptable to me, I'm quite puzzled by
<Büfett>.  No idea where they pronounce it like that.  Somewhere
up north, I guess.
Similary, <Brezel> vs. <Bretzel> reflects a distinction between
/e:/ and /E/ in what you consider as standard pronunciation.  Since
I have /E/ there, I'm not very happy with <Brezel> either.
I'm about 200 km north of Switzerland, fwiw.
--

Growing up in Germany around 1950, I was taught to pronounce a nasal,
not ng, in Balkon, a voiced initial in Dschungel, and not to pronounce
an initial T in Tsweeter (=sweater). It was presented to me as an
educated speaker vs. uneducated speaker (gebildete Leute, etc)
distinction. Do Germans still do that or are the nonnative
pronunciations universal now?

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by naive user
Growing up in Germany around 1950, I was taught to pronounce a nasal,
not ng, in Balkon, a voiced initial in Dschungel, and not to pronounce
an initial T in Tsweeter (=sweater). It was presented to me as an
educated speaker vs. uneducated speaker (gebildete Leute, etc)
distinction. Do Germans still do that or are the nonnative
pronunciations universal now?

dschangel and zwetter with no pronunciation tips would get the German
closer to the original pronunciations in Hindi and English
respectively (than the pronunciations you were taught).

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by naive user
Growing up in Germany around 1950, I was taught to pronounce a nasal,
not ng, in Balkon, a voiced initial in Dschungel, and not to pronounce
an initial T in Tsweeter (=sweater). It was presented to me as an
educated speaker vs. uneducated speaker (gebildete Leute, etc)
distinction. Do Germans still do that or are the nonnative
pronunciations universal now?

dschangel and zwetter with no pronunciation tips would get the German
closer to the original pronunciations in Hindi and English
respectively (than the pronunciations you were taught).

? There is no initial [t] in "sweater." (So the supposed German
spelling presented above is unaccountable, and initial <z> is no more
helpful.)

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by naive user
Growing up in Germany around 1950, I was taught to pronounce a nasal,
not ng, in Balkon, a voiced initial in Dschungel, and not to pronounce
an initial T in Tsweeter (=sweater). It was presented to me as an
educated speaker vs. uneducated speaker (gebildete Leute, etc)
distinction. Do Germans still do that or are the nonnative
pronunciations universal now?

dschangel and zwetter with no pronunciation tips would get the German
closer to the original pronunciations in Hindi and English
respectively (than the pronunciations you were taught).

? There is no initial [t] in "sweater."

There's no long [e] in sweater either. Would there be an intial t in
<zwetter> or would there be an initial affricate?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
(So the supposed German
spelling presented above is unaccountable, and initial <z> is no more
helpful.)

Initial z is helpful in keeping the point of articulation from getting
postalveolar. In other words, with an initial <z> is followed by a
vowel, the initial <z> is helpful in eliminating voicing.

<swetter> would produce a pronunciation that seems like shwetter to an
Anglo. The pronunciation of <zwetter> would sound foreign but
otherwise close enough to sweater to an Anglo ear.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by naive user
Growing up in Germany around 1950, I was taught to pronounce a nasal,
not ng, in Balkon, a voiced initial in Dschungel, and not to pronounce
an initial T in Tsweeter (=sweater). It was presented to me as an
educated speaker vs. uneducated speaker (gebildete Leute, etc)
distinction. Do Germans still do that or are the nonnative
pronunciations universal now?

dschangel and zwetter with no pronunciation tips would get the German
closer to the original pronunciations in Hindi and English
respectively (than the pronunciations you were taught).

? There is no initial [t] in "sweater."

There's no long [e] in sweater either. Would there be an intial t in
<zwetter> or would there be an initial affricate?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
(So the supposed German
spelling presented above is unaccountable, and initial <z> is no more
helpful.)

Initial z is helpful in keeping the point of articulation from getting
postalveolar. In other words, with an initial <z> is followed by a
vowel, the initial <z> is helpful in eliminating voicing.

There is no "post-alveolar" in German.

The most salient feature of <z> is its closure, not its non-voicing
(there are no voiced affricates in German).

Post by r***@yahoo.com
<swetter> would produce a pronunciation that seems like shwetter to an

shvetter, actually. In English (though perhaps not in India?), v and w
are distinct.

Post by r***@yahoo.com
Anglo. The pronunciation of <zwetter> would sound foreign but
otherwise close enough to sweater to an Anglo ear.-

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by naive user
Growing up in Germany around 1950, I was taught to pronounce a nasal,
not ng, in Balkon, a voiced initial in Dschungel, and not to pronounce
an initial T in Tsweeter (=sweater). It was presented to me as an
educated speaker vs. uneducated speaker (gebildete Leute, etc)
distinction. Do Germans still do that or are the nonnative
pronunciations universal now?

dschangel and zwetter with no pronunciation tips would get the German
closer to the original pronunciations in Hindi and English
respectively (than the pronunciations you were taught).

? There is no initial [t] in "sweater."

There's no long [e] in sweater either. Would there be an intial t in
<zwetter> or would there be an initial affricate?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
(So the supposed German
spelling presented above is unaccountable, and initial <z> is no more
helpful.)

Initial z is helpful in keeping the point of articulation from getting
postalveolar. In other words, with an initial <z> is followed by a
vowel, the initial <z> is helpful in eliminating voicing.

There is no "post-alveolar" in German.

That wouldn't prevent a German pronunciation from sounding
postalveolar to an Anglo's ear. An Anglo discerns Anglo phonemes,
thereby discerning his /S/ in German initials <sw>, <st>, <sp>
regardless of whether Germans use postalveolar articulations to
pronounce the fricatives in these contexts.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
The most salient feature of <z> is its closure, not its non-voicing
(there are no voiced affricates in German).

The alternative <s> would be voiced making it the [z] fricative which
I think would sound odder to the Anglo than an affricate [ts] (not
cluster [ts]). There is yet another alternative <ss> which should work
but is, for whatever reason, never used in German in an initial
context even for transliteration.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com
<swetter> would produce a pronunciation that seems like shwetter to an

shvetter, actually.

Very well, if you mean [S] followed by a labiodental approximant
rather than [S] followed by a voiced labiodental fricative.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
In English (though perhaps not in India?), v and w
are distinct.

In Indian Englishes where they are distinct, <v> is a labial
approximant whereas <w> is a semivocalic variant of the [U] in English
<look>. The Anglo pronunciation of <w> typically sounds to me like a
semivocalic variant of the [u] in English <cool>. Perhaps a labial
approximant and semivocalic [U] don't sound sufficiently distinct to
an Anglo ear to be recognized as distinct. The two are not distinct in
just some Indians' English; the two are subphonemes of /v/ in
complementary distribution in spoken Hindi with the distribution
apparent in Romanization; eg., the names <Savitri> vs. <Swamy>.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com
otherwise close enough to sweater to an Anglo ear.-

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by naive user
Growing up in Germany around 1950, I was taught to pronounce a nasal,
not ng, in Balkon, a voiced initial in Dschungel, and not to pronounce
an initial T in Tsweeter (=sweater). It was presented to me as an
educated speaker vs. uneducated speaker (gebildete Leute, etc)
distinction. Do Germans still do that or are the nonnative
pronunciations universal now?

dschangel and zwetter with no pronunciation tips would get the German
closer to the original pronunciations in Hindi and English
respectively (than the pronunciations you were taught).

? There is no initial [t] in "sweater."

There's no long [e] in sweater either. Would there be an intial t in
<zwetter> or would there be an initial affricate?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
(So the supposed German
spelling presented above is unaccountable, and initial <z> is no more
helpful.)

Initial z is helpful in keeping the point of articulation from getting
postalveolar. In other words, with an initial <z> is followed by a
vowel, the initial <z> is helpful in eliminating voicing.

There is no "post-alveolar" in German.

That wouldn't prevent a German pronunciation from sounding
postalveolar to an Anglo's ear. An Anglo discerns Anglo phonemes,
thereby discerning his /S/ in German initials <sw>, <st>, <sp>
regardless of whether Germans use postalveolar articulations to
pronounce the fricatives in these contexts.

There is no "post-alveolar" in English.

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels
The most salient feature of <z> is its closure, not its non-voicing
(there are no voiced affricates in German).

The alternative <s> would be voiced making it the [z] fricative which
I think would sound odder to the Anglo than an affricate [ts] (not
cluster [ts]). There is yet another alternative <ss> which should work
but is, for whatever reason, never used in German in an initial
context even for transliteration.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com
<swetter> would produce a pronunciation that seems like shwetter to an

shvetter, actually.

Very well, if you mean [S] followed by a labiodental approximant
rather than [S] followed by a voiced labiodental fricative.

???

v is the labiodental fricative.

w is the bilabial approximant.

Unless, of course, this "Anglo" you keep talking about is a speaker of
Indian English.

In the US "Anglo" is used only to contrast with Hispanic/Latino, and
it's not exactly polite.

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels
In English (though perhaps not in India?), v and w
are distinct.

In Indian Englishes where they are distinct, <v> is a labial
approximant whereas <w> is a semivocalic variant of the [U] in English
<look>. The Anglo pronunciation of <w> typically sounds to me like a
semivocalic variant of the [u] in English <cool>. Perhaps a labial
approximant and semivocalic [U] don't sound sufficiently distinct to
an Anglo ear to be recognized as distinct. The two are not distinct in
just some Indians' English; the two are subphonemes of /v/ in
complementary distribution in spoken Hindi with the distribution
apparent in Romanization; eg., the names <Savitri> vs. <Swamy>.

And what relevance that has to a German needing to pronounce a
loanword from English, I cannot fathom.

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com
otherwise close enough to sweater to an Anglo ear.--

[Nathan Sanders]

In article

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels
There is no "post-alveolar" in German.

Of course there is.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com
That wouldn't prevent a German pronunciation from sounding
postalveolar to an Anglo's ear. An Anglo discerns Anglo phonemes,
thereby discerning his /S/ in German initials <sw>, <st>, <sp>
regardless of whether Germans use postalveolar articulations to
pronounce the fricatives in these contexts.

There is no "post-alveolar" in English.

Of course there is.

Why do you assume that whatever term you use for the place of
articulation of [S] is the only possible option (or even the most
prevalent)?

When's the last time you even looked at the IPA chart?

Loading Image...

Nathan

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by naive user
Growing up in Germany around 1950, I was taught to pronounce a nasal,
not ng, in Balkon, a voiced initial in Dschungel, and not to pronounce
an initial T in Tsweeter (=sweater). It was presented to me as an
educated speaker vs. uneducated speaker (gebildete Leute, etc)
distinction. Do Germans still do that or are the nonnative
pronunciations universal now?

dschangel and zwetter with no pronunciation tips would get the German
closer to the original pronunciations in Hindi and English
respectively (than the pronunciations you were taught).

? There is no initial [t] in "sweater."

There's no long [e] in sweater either. Would there be an intial t in
<zwetter> or would there be an initial affricate?

Post by Peter T. Daniels
(So the supposed German
spelling presented above is unaccountable, and initial <z> is no more
helpful.)

Initial z is helpful in keeping the point of articulation from getting
postalveolar. In other words, with an initial <z> is followed by a
vowel, the initial <z> is helpful in eliminating voicing.

There is no "post-alveolar" in German.

That wouldn't prevent a German pronunciation from sounding
postalveolar to an Anglo's ear. An Anglo discerns Anglo phonemes,
thereby discerning his /S/ in German initials <sw>, <st>, <sp>
regardless of whether Germans use postalveolar articulations to
pronounce the fricatives in these contexts.

There is no "post-alveolar" in English.

What is the realization of English /S/, then?

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels
The most salient feature of <z> is its closure, not its non-voicing
(there are no voiced affricates in German).

The alternative <s> would be voiced making it the [z] fricative which
I think would sound odder to the Anglo than an affricate [ts] (not
cluster [ts]). There is yet another alternative <ss> which should work
but is, for whatever reason, never used in German in an initial
context even for transliteration.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com
<swetter> would produce a pronunciation that seems like shwetter to an

shvetter, actually.

Very well, if you mean [S] followed by a labiodental approximant
rather than [S] followed by a voiced labiodental fricative.

???
v is the labiodental fricative.

Indeed? I haven't noticed that Germans pronounce wasser like Americans
pronounce Vassar.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
w is the bilabial approximant.
Unless, of course, this "Anglo" you keep talking about is a speaker of
Indian English.
In the US "Anglo" is used only to contrast with Hispanic/Latino, and
it's not exactly polite.

How did it get to be impolite? I can use Gringo if you prefer:-)

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels
In English (though perhaps not in India?), v and w
are distinct.

In Indian Englishes where they are distinct, <v> is a labial
approximant whereas <w> is a semivocalic variant of the [U] in English
<look>. The Anglo pronunciation of <w> typically sounds to me like a
semivocalic variant of the [u] in English <cool>. Perhaps a labial
approximant and semivocalic [U] don't sound sufficiently distinct to
an Anglo ear to be recognized as distinct. The two are not distinct in
just some Indians' English; the two are subphonemes of /v/ in
complementary distribution in spoken Hindi with the distribution
apparent in Romanization; eg., the names <Savitri> vs. <Swamy>.

And what relevance that has to a German needing to pronounce a
loanword from English, I cannot fathom.

It has relevance only to your doubt about whether v and w are distinct
in English spoken in India.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com
otherwise close enough to sweater to an Anglo ear.--

[Joachim Pense]

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels
v is the labiodental fricative.

Indeed? I haven't noticed that Germans pronounce wasser like Americans
pronounce Vassar.

What differences did you notice?

Joachim

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels
v is the labiodental fricative.

Indeed? I haven't noticed that Germans pronounce wasser like Americans
pronounce Vassar.

What differences did you notice?

More friction in Vassar.

Post by Joachim Pense
Joachim

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels
v is the labiodental fricative.

Indeed? I haven't noticed that Germans pronounce wasser like Americans
pronounce Vassar.

What differences did you notice?
Joachim

It looks like some have more friction than others. The last one has
the least:
http://www.forvo.com/word/wettbewerb/

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by Peter T. Daniels
v is the labiodental fricative.

Indeed? I haven't noticed that Germans pronounce wasser like Americans
pronounce Vassar.

What differences did you notice?

Not much friction in wasser. Researching it further, it looks like it
depends on the speaker. In these samples of speakers, I hear friction
in the first one's pronunciation; I don't hear it in the others.
http://www.forvo.com/word/wasser/

[Joachim Pense]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by naive user
Growing up in Germany around 1950, I was taught to pronounce a nasal,
not ng, in Balkon, a voiced initial in Dschungel, and not to pronounce
an initial T in Tsweeter (=sweater). It was presented to me as an
educated speaker vs. uneducated speaker (gebildete Leute, etc)
distinction. Do Germans still do that or are the nonnative
pronunciations universal now?

dschangel and zwetter with no pronunciation tips would get the German
closer to the original pronunciations in Hindi and English
respectively (than the pronunciations you were taught).

? There is no initial [t] in "sweater." (So the supposed German
spelling presented above is unaccountable, and initial<z> is no more
helpful.)

But the initial t before the s is the only way to have a speaker of
standard German to pronounce the s voiceless and remain in their sound
system. I assume the thinking is that "tsvetter" is closer to the
English pronounciation for an English ear than "zvetter".

Joachim

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by naive user
Growing up in Germany around 1950, I was taught to pronounce a nasal,
not ng, in Balkon, a voiced initial in Dschungel, and not to pronounce
an initial T in Tsweeter (=sweater). It was presented to me as an
educated speaker vs. uneducated speaker (gebildete Leute, etc)
distinction. Do Germans still do that or are the nonnative
pronunciations universal now?

dschangel and zwetter with no pronunciation tips would get the German
closer to the original pronunciations in Hindi and English
respectively (than the pronunciations you were taught).

? There is no initial [t] in "sweater." (So the supposed German
spelling presented above is unaccountable, and initial<z>  is no more
helpful.)

But the initial t before the s is the only way to have a speaker of
standard German to pronounce the s voiceless and remain in their sound
system. I assume the thinking is that "tsvetter" is closer to the
English pronounciation for an English ear than "zvetter".

Are there any (other) words with initial [s]?

[Joachim Pense]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by r***@yahoo.com

Post by naive user
Growing up in Germany around 1950, I was taught to pronounce a nasal,
not ng, in Balkon, a voiced initial in Dschungel, and not to pronounce
an initial T in Tsweeter (=sweater). It was presented to me as an
educated speaker vs. uneducated speaker (gebildete Leute, etc)
distinction. Do Germans still do that or are the nonnative
pronunciations universal now?

dschangel and zwetter with no pronunciation tips would get the German
closer to the original pronunciations in Hindi and English
respectively (than the pronunciations you were taught).

? There is no initial [t] in "sweater." (So the supposed German
spelling presented above is unaccountable, and initial<z> is no more
helpful.)

But the initial t before the s is the only way to have a speaker of
standard German to pronounce the s voiceless and remain in their sound
system. I assume the thinking is that "tsvetter" is closer to the
English pronounciation for an English ear than "zvetter".

Are there any (other) words with initial [s]?

Not in standard German. But in some regions the initial /s/ is always [s].

Joachim

[Helmut Richter]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Are there any (other) words with initial [s]?

Not in standard German.

Initial [s] is quite regular before consonant: Sphäre, Smaragd, Skandal,
Slave, Snob, Szene, also in those cases where initial st- or sp- is not
pronounced with [S]: Spektrum, statisch (in S-Germany the latter are
fairly consistently spoken with [S] despite dictionaries recommending the
contrary). None of these words is originally High German -- these have
acquired an [S]-sound in NHG times. So they are all either Low German
(e.g. Smutje (cook on a ship) or Swine (river from the Oder lagoon to the
Baltic Sea)) or loans from other languages.

But: virtually all words in current German with initial /s/ followed by
consonant have [s]. The only counter-example I found is "Sgraffito" [zg-]
for those people who know the original Italian pronunciation. In
particular, there is no word with initial [zv-] or [zw-]. Hence, there is
no reason to believe that anyone would pronounce "sweater" with [zv-].

Post by Joachim Pense
But in some regions the initial /s/ is always [s].

Indeed, in vast regions or Germany (S and E), there is devoicing of many
consonants: [z], [b], [g], [d]. A difference between [z_0] and [s] is
usually made even then.

[Joachim Pense]

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Are there any (other) words with initial [s]?

Not in standard German.

Initial [s] is quite regular before consonant: Sphäre, Smaragd, Skandal,
Slave, Snob, Szene, also in those cases where initial st- or sp- is not
pronounced with [S]: Spektrum, statisch (in S-Germany the latter are
fairly consistently spoken with [S] despite dictionaries recommending the
contrary). None of these words is originally High German -- these have
acquired an [S]-sound in NHG times. So they are all either Low German
(e.g. Smutje (cook on a ship) or Swine (river from the Oder lagoon to the
Baltic Sea)) or loans from other languages.

Initial /s/ before consonants ist typical for loans. I think in most
cases, originally German initial s has developed into [S]. But - other
than before t and p, it is explicitly written as Sch.

Joachim

[Joachim Pense]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Are there any (other) words with initial [s]?

Not in standard German.

Initial [s] is quite regular before consonant: Sphäre, Smaragd, Skandal,
Slave, Snob, Szene, also in those cases where initial st- or sp- is not
pronounced with [S]: Spektrum, statisch (in S-Germany the latter are
fairly consistently spoken with [S] despite dictionaries recommending the
contrary). None of these words is originally High German -- these have
acquired an [S]-sound in NHG times. So they are all either Low German
(e.g. Smutje (cook on a ship) or Swine (river from the Oder lagoon to the
Baltic Sea)) or loans from other languages.

Initial /s/ before consonants ist typical for loans. I think in most
cases, originally German initial s has developed into [S]. But - other
than before t and p, it is explicitly written as Sch.

There are a few exceptions like Sklave, or Slave. (But "Slave" just
doesn't look like a German word for me - is that a loan?).

Joachim

[r***@yahoo.com]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Are there any (other) words with initial [s]?

Not in standard German.

Initial [s] is quite regular before consonant: Sphäre, Smaragd, Skandal,
Slave, Snob, Szene, also in those cases where initial st- or sp- is not
pronounced with [S]: Spektrum, statisch (in S-Germany the latter are
fairly consistently spoken with [S] despite dictionaries recommending the
contrary). None of these words is originally High German -- these have
acquired an [S]-sound in NHG times. So they are all either Low German
(e.g. Smutje (cook on a ship) or Swine (river from the Oder lagoon to the
Baltic Sea)) or loans from other languages.

Initial /s/ before consonants ist typical for loans. I think in most
cases, originally German initial s has developed into [S]. But - other
than before t and p, it is explicitly written as Sch.

I met a German speaker with a surname Swiess who pronounced it like
Schwiess.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Are there any (other) words with initial [s]?

Not in standard German.

Initial [s] is quite regular before consonant: Sphäre, Smaragd, Skandal,
Slave, Snob, Szene, also in those cases where initial st- or sp- is not
pronounced with [S]: Spektrum, statisch (in S-Germany the latter are

Ah -- of course, the Classical stratum. (I always imagined Smaragd
with [z].)

If we agree that English is a Clazssical language, then Sweater is no
problem. (And the weird <ea> will guard against the [e:] suggested by
<ee> in the form given.)

Post by Helmut Richter
fairly consistently spoken with [S] despite dictionaries recommending the
contrary). None of these words is originally High German -- these have
acquired an [S]-sound in NHG times. So they are all either Low German
(e.g. Smutje (cook on a ship) or Swine (river from the Oder lagoon to the
Baltic Sea)) or loans from other languages.
But: virtually all words in current German with initial /s/ followed by
consonant have [s]. The only counter-example I found is "Sgraffito" [zg-]
for those people who know the original Italian pronunciation. In
particular, there is no word with initial [zv-] or [zw-]. Hence, there is
no reason to believe that anyone would pronounce "sweater" with [zv-].

Post by Joachim Pense
But in some regions the initial /s/ is always [s].

Indeed, in vast regions or Germany (S and E), there is devoicing of many
consonants: [z], [b], [g], [d]. A difference between [z_0] and [s] is
usually made even then.

[Joachim Pense]

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by Helmut Richter
So the question boils down to why James Last replaced -k- by -c-. Well,
such variations are common in German with more -c- in the nineteenth
century and more -k- later, perhaps with a reverse trend now.

Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunction
with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier -> Klavier, spaciren
-> spazieren, Caesur -> Zäsur, Bureau -> Büro, Couvert -> Kuvert (many
of the French-origin ones have retained their spelling in Switzerland
until now).
In the 20th century, the process of using a more German-like spelling was
much slower: Friseur -> Frisör is not generally accepted, Clown -> Klaun
was a nice try in a dictionary but not followed by anybody. Moreover, most
newer loans were from English whose phonology and spelling is so much
different from German that German-like spelling (Manager -> Menedscher)
looks too weird for German eyes to be accepted; in other languages such
adaptations are in fact used (hu:menedzser, sw:meneja), though.

But Ski -> Schi (Norwegian loan) didn't make it either.

Post by Helmut Richter
What I called a "reverse trend" is mainly in science (Äther -> Ether,
Zäsium -> Caesium)

Äther -> Ether is differnt. Äther is a direct loan from scietntific
Graecolatin, which was replaced by more modern Anglograecolatin later.
Zäsium - I doubt that that was ever used in a scientific context, and it
is not probably that the word in either spelling was used often in an
everyday context at all. Where did you get "Zäsium -> Caesium" from?

and in geography (Dardschiling -> Darjeeling, Wagadugu

Post by Helmut Richter
-> Ouagadougou, Peking -> Beijing), both to make German look more
international.

I think that was political self-consciousness of the German side from
the 1970s on. In my opinion it was less an attempt to make German look
more international than to make Germany look more international (we know
how to spell foreign names in many languages!!).

In the first example, even the pronunciation has changed,

Post by Helmut Richter
under the assumption that it is regular: Äther [E:t6] -> Ether [e:t6].

It is a different word, after all.

Joachim

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Helmut Richter
What I called a "reverse trend" is mainly in science (Äther -> Ether,
Zäsium -> Caesium)

Äther -> Ether is differnt. Äther is a direct loan from scietntific
Graecolatin, which was replaced by more modern Anglograecolatin later.
Zäsium - I doubt that that was ever used in a scientific context, and it
is not probably that the word in either spelling was used often in an
everyday context at all. Where did you get "Zäsium -> Caesium" from?

My trusty _Brockhaus der Naturwissenschaften und der Technik_, 1964,
describes the element under "Zäsium" and there is no entry for
"Caesium" at all, despite "Cerium" pointing to "Zer".

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Joachim Pense

What I called a "reverse trend" is mainly in science (Äther ->  Ether,
Zäsium ->  Caesium)

Äther -> Ether is differnt. Äther is a direct loan from scietntific
Graecolatin, which was replaced by more modern Anglograecolatin later.
Zäsium - I doubt that that was ever used in a scientific context, and it
is not probably that the word in either spelling was used often in an
everyday context at all. Where did you get "Zäsium -> Caesium" from?

My trusty _Brockhaus der Naturwissenschaften und der Technik_, 1964,
describes the element under "Zäsium" and there is no entry for
"Caesium" at all, despite "Cerium" pointing to "Zer".

Did you check Cesium (the English spelling)?

[Leslie Danks]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Helmut Richter
What I called a "reverse trend" is mainly in science (Äther ->
Ether, Zäsium -> Caesium)

Äther -> Ether is differnt. Äther is a direct loan from scietntific
Graecolatin, which was replaced by more modern Anglograecolatin later.
Zäsium - I doubt that that was ever used in a scientific context, and
it is not probably that the word in either spelling was used often in
an everyday context at all. Where did you get "Zäsium -> Caesium" from?

My trusty _Brockhaus der Naturwissenschaften und der Technik_, 1964,
describes the element under "Zäsium" and there is no entry for
"Caesium" at all, despite "Cerium" pointing to "Zer".

Did you check Cesium (the English spelling)?

I learned it as caesium; (Wiki says):

[quote]
Caesium is the spelling recommended by the International Union of Pure and
Applied Chemistry (IUPAC).[2] The American Chemical Society (ACS) has used
the spelling cesium since 1921,[3][4] following Webster’s Third New
International Dictionary.
[/quote]

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium>

[António Marques]

Post by Leslie Danks

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Helmut Richter
What I called a "reverse trend" is mainly in science (Äther ->
Ether, Zäsium -> Caesium)

Äther -> Ether is differnt. Äther is a direct loan from scietntific
Graecolatin, which was replaced by more modern Anglograecolatin later.
Zäsium - I doubt that that was ever used in a scientific context, and
it is not probably that the word in either spelling was used often in
an everyday context at all. Where did you get "Zäsium -> Caesium" from?

My trusty _Brockhaus der Naturwissenschaften und der Technik_, 1964,
describes the element under "Zäsium" and there is no entry for
"Caesium" at all, despite "Cerium" pointing to "Zer".

Did you check Cesium (the English spelling)?

[quote]
Caesium is the spelling recommended by the International Union of Pure and
Applied Chemistry (IUPAC).[2] The American Chemical Society (ACS) has used
the spelling cesium since 1921,[3][4] following Webster’s Third New
International Dictionary.
[/quote]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesium>

http://www.iupac.org/publications/books/rbook/Red_Book_2005.pdf

"
The IUPAC-approved names of the atoms of atomic numbers 1-111 for use in the
English language are listed in alphabetical order in Table I*. It is
obviously desirable that the names used in any language resemble these names
as closely as possible, but it is recognized that for elements named in the
past there are often well-established and very different names in other
languages.
"

That document cares about naming practices, not spelling. Naming and
spelling are completely different things. Of course, where there are two
usable spellings within the same language, it is to be understood that the
one closer to that which is listed in 'Table 1' is to be preferred.

So in english Caesium and Cesium both work, so let's use Caesium, which is
closer to the latin name (NB Cesium isn't even proscribed; it's mentioned as
an alternative in a footnote to the table). Of course in other languages the
closest thing to Caesium should be used, but depending on the language there
may be some distance still. In portuguese, which actually has orthographical
and loaning rules, you can't do with anything other than <Césio>. This is
not at all a case of 'for elements named in the past there are often
well-established and very different names in other languages'. A case of
'for elements named in the past there are often well-established and very
different names' is english 'iron'; certainly the IUPAC isn't proposing that
that name should become international. Or that, say, if there were a german
word *ferrum, 'eisen' should be preferred to it.

[Helmut Richter]

Post by António Marques
http://www.iupac.org/publications/books/rbook/Red_Book_2005.pdf
"
The IUPAC-approved names of the atoms of atomic numbers 1-111 for use in the
English language are listed in alphabetical order in Table I*. It is obviously
desirable that the names used in any language resemble these names as closely
as possible, but it is recognized that for elements named in the past there
are often well-established and very different names in other languages.

For instance the weird German names Natrium for Na or Wolfram for W,
instead of the international words sodium (Na) and tungsten (W).

[franzi]

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by António Marques
http://www.iupac.org/publications/books/rbook/Red_Book_2005.pdf
"
The IUPAC-approved names of the atoms of atomic numbers 1-111 for use in the
English language are listed in alphabetical order in Table I*. It is obviously
desirable that the names used in any language resemble these names as closely
as possible, but it is recognized that for elements named in the past there
are often well-established and very different names in other languages.

For instance the weird German names Natrium for Na or Wolfram for W,
instead of the international words sodium (Na) and tungsten (W).

Wolfram is an acceptable name for the metal in English at large, if you
don't mind being seen as old-fashioned. I imagine that most people
wouldn't know it was another name for tungsten, though.

[LEE Sau Dan]

" The IUPAC-approved names of the atoms of atomic numbers 1-111
for use in the English language are listed in alphabetical order
in Table I*. It is obviously desirable that the names used in any
language resemble these names as closely as possible, but it is
recognized that for elements named in the past there are often
well-established and very different names in other languages.

Helmut> For instance the weird German names Natrium for Na or

and Chinese: 鈉 (Mandarin: nà; Cantonese: nap9)

Helmut> Wolfram for W,

and Chinese: 鎢 (Mandarin: wū; Cantonese: wu1)

Also: K: Kalium (de); kap8 (zh-yue); jiā (zh); potassium (en).



Helmut> instead of the international words sodium (Na) and tungsten
Helmut> (W).

"international"? In what sense?

Let's have a look. I've extracted the names for the element Na in a
dozen languages from Wikipedia. The following is a list. It is not the
full list. I've omitted those using scripts which I'm unfamiliar with.
I'm also only pick the ones from countries that I know at least the
names.

Na: natrium (af)
صوديوم (ar)
натрий (bg)
natrium (da)
Natrium (de)
naatrium (et)
Νάτριο (el)
sodium (en)
natrio (eo)
sodio (es)
سدیم (fa)
sodium (fr)
나트륨 (ko)
natrij (hr)
natrín (is)
sodio (it)
natrium (jv)
natrium (la)
nātrijs (lv)
natrium (lb)
natris (lt)
nátrium (hu)
натриум (mk)
natrium (ms_
natrium (nl)
ナトリウム (ja)
natrium (no), (nn)
sòdi (oc)
sód (pl)
sódio (pt)
sodiu (ro)
натрий (ru)
sodík (sk)
natrij (sl)
natrium (fi)
natrium (sv)
Sodyo (tl)
натрий (tt)
sodyum (tr)
натрій (uk)
natri (vi)
鈉 (zh)



So, it seems that:

1) Most languages uses a word starting with "na-", with the biggest
group of exceptions coming from the Romance languages.

2) English, sk(?), Tagalog, Turkish are the odd men out. They're not
Romance, but uses a name starting with "so-". Arabic and Farsi
also uses "s-*-d-" words.

So, "na-" is the majority and "so-" is the minority. Which name is the
more international one, then?

[Helmut Richter]

Post by LEE Sau Dan
2) English, sk(?), Tagalog, Turkish are the odd men out. They're not
Romance, but uses a name starting with "so-". Arabic and Farsi
also uses "s-*-d-" words.

sk is Slovak. See http://www.sil.org/iso639-3/codes.asp. The two-letter
abbreviations are ISO 639-1.

[pauljk]

Post by LEE Sau Dan

" The IUPAC-approved names of the atoms of atomic numbers 1-111
for use in the English language are listed in alphabetical order
in Table I*. It is obviously desirable that the names used in any
language resemble these names as closely as possible, but it is
recognized that for elements named in the past there are often
well-established and very different names in other languages.

Helmut> For instance the weird German names Natrium for Na or
and Chinese: 鈉 (Mandarin: nà; Cantonese: nap9)
Helmut> Wolfram for W,
and Chinese: 鎢 (Mandarin: wū; Cantonese: wu1)
Also: K: Kalium (de); kap8 (zh-yue); jiā (zh); potassium (en).
Helmut> instead of the international words sodium (Na) and tungsten
Helmut> (W).
"international"? In what sense?
Let's have a look. I've extracted the names for the element Na in a
dozen languages from Wikipedia. The following is a list. It is not the
full list. I've omitted those using scripts which I'm unfamiliar with.
I'm also only pick the ones from countries that I know at least the
names.
Na: natrium (af)
صوديوم (ar)
натрий (bg)
natrium (da)
Natrium (de)
naatrium (et)
Νάτριο (el)
sodium (en)
natrio (eo)
sodio (es)
سدیم (fa)
sodium (fr)
나트륨 (ko)
natrij (hr)
natrín (is)
sodio (it)
natrium (jv)
natrium (la)
nātrijs (lv)
natrium (lb)
natris (lt)
nátrium (hu)
натриум (mk)
natrium (ms_
natrium (nl)
ナトリウム (ja)
natrium (no), (nn)
sòdi (oc)
sód (pl)
sódio (pt)
sodiu (ro)
натрий (ru)
sodík (sk)
natrij (sl)
natrium (fi)
natrium (sv)
Sodyo (tl)
натрий (tt)
sodyum (tr)
натрій (uk)
natri (vi)
鈉 (zh)
1) Most languages uses a word starting with "na-", with the biggest
group of exceptions coming from the Romance languages.
2) English, sk(?), Tagalog, Turkish are the odd men out.

Re your question mark:
The sk stands for Slovak. Czechs also call it "sodík".

However, professional Czech and Slovak chemists are quite likely to
call it "nátrium".

Post by LEE Sau Dan
They're not
Romance, but uses a name starting with "so-". Arabic and Farsi
also uses "s-*-d-" words.
So, "na-" is the majority and "so-" is the minority. Which name is the
more international one, then?
--

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Christian Weisgerber
My trusty _Brockhaus der Naturwissenschaften und der Technik_, 1964,
describes the element under "Zäsium" and there is no entry for
"Caesium" at all, despite "Cerium" pointing to "Zer".

Did you check Cesium (the English spelling)?

Yes, that's how I noticed the "Cerium"... pointer? pointer entry?...
How *do* you call an entry in a dictionary, encyclopedia, etc. that
only points to another entry?

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Christian Weisgerber
My trusty _Brockhaus der Naturwissenschaften und der Technik_, 1964,
describes the element under "Zäsium" and there is no entry for
"Caesium" at all, despite "Cerium" pointing to "Zer".

Did you check Cesium (the English spelling)?

Yes, that's how I noticed the "Cerium"... pointer? pointer entry?... How
*do* you call an entry in a dictionary, encyclopedia, etc. that only
points to another entry?

Cross-reference.

More specifically, a "see" reference (as opposed to a "see-also"
reference")

[Leslie Danks]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Helmut Richter
What I called a "reverse trend" is mainly in science (Äther -> Ether,
Zäsium -> Caesium)

Äther -> Ether is differnt. Äther is a direct loan from scietntific
Graecolatin, which was replaced by more modern Anglograecolatin later.
Zäsium - I doubt that that was ever used in a scientific context, and it
is not probably that the word in either spelling was used often in an
everyday context at all. Where did you get "Zäsium -> Caesium" from?

My trusty _Brockhaus der Naturwissenschaften und der Technik_, 1964,
describes the element under "Zäsium" and there is no entry for
"Caesium" at all, despite "Cerium" pointing to "Zer".

My "Wörterbuch der Medizin und Pharmazeutik (Deutsch-Englisch), 3rd Edition,
1981, gives both "Zäsium" and "Caesium" without indicating any pecking
order.

[James Silverton]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Helmut Richter
What I called a "reverse trend" is mainly in science (Äther
-> Ether, Zäsium -> Caesium)

Äther -> Ether is differnt. Äther is a direct loan from
scietntific Graecolatin, which was replaced by more modern
Anglograecolatin later. Zäsium - I doubt that that was ever
used in a scientific context, and it is not probably that the
word in either spelling was used often in an everyday context
at all. Where did you get "Zäsium -> Caesium" from?

My trusty _Brockhaus der Naturwissenschaften und der Technik_,
1964, describes the element under "Zäsium" and there is no
entry for "Caesium" at all, despite "Cerium" pointing to
"Zer".

Patterson's "German-English Dictionary for Chemists" is the standby
here and indicates that the element is *usually* called Zäsium but
Cäsium in compound words. There can be the usual confusion in indicating
the umlaut as "ae" and, of course, the element is Cesium in America and
Caesium in Britain.

Most compound words involving Cerium follow a similar path "Ceri...",
"Cero.." but the element is given only as Zerium.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Helmut Richter

Post by Helmut Richter
So the question boils down to why James Last replaced -k- by -c-. Well,
such variations are common in German with more -c- in the nineteenth
century and more -k- later, perhaps with a reverse trend now.

Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunction
with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier -> Klavier, spaciren
-> spazieren, Caesur -> Zäsur, Bureau -> Büro, Couvert -> Kuvert (many
of the French-origin ones have retained their spelling in Switzerland
until now).

Where does "spaciren" come from?

Post by Helmut Richter
In the 20th century, the process of using a more German-like spelling was
much slower: Friseur -> Frisör is not generally accepted,

I was told (by an educated German, ca. 1990) that "Frisör" is a common
misspelling but frowned on.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Helmut Richter
Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunction
with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier -> Klavier, spaciren
-> spazieren, Caesur -> Zäsur, Bureau -> Büro, Couvert -> Kuvert (many

Where does "spaciren" come from?

spazieren (13th c.) < Italian spaziare < Latin spatiari < spatium

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Helmut Richter
Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunction
with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier -> Klavier, spaciren
-> spazieren, Caesur -> Zäsur, Bureau -> Büro, Couvert -> Kuvert (many

Where does "spaciren" come from?

spazieren (13th c.) < Italian spaziare < Latin spatiari < spatium

"An einem Spaetherbstnachmittag ging ein alter, wohlgekleideter Mann
langsam die Strasse hinab. Er schien von einem Spaziergang
zuruckzukehren, denn seine alte, ... Schuhen(?) waren bestaubt."

10th-grade German (1966), first memorization assignment.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Helmut Richter
Between 19th and 20th century, the trend is clear, probably in conjunction
with the spelling reform finalised in 1901: Clavier -> Klavier, spaciren
-> spazieren, Caesur -> Zäsur, Bureau -> Büro, Couvert -> Kuvert (many

Where does "spaciren" come from?

spazieren (13th c.) < Italian spaziare < Latin spatiari < spatium

Oh, it is cognate with "space" then. Thanks.

[John Varela]

[sci.lang removed]

Post by qquito
Before I posted my question, I had done what you suggested. I checked
all the major European languages but left a few unchecked. And now I
checked again. Well, of all the languages available for the entry
"Biscay", only one of them is "Biscaya", the one I am asking about,
and it is Swedish (Svenska).

It might help you to know that in Spanish and some other languages
(Basque? I don't know.), initial B and V, or at the start of a
stressed syllable, are interchangeable. Hence Viscaya = Biscaya,
Havana = Habana, etc. In doing my family tree I learned that Saenz
de Varanda is interchangeable with Saenz de Baranda. Varela is
sometimes seen as Barela, but rarely^W seldom.

[alan]

Post by John Varela
[sci.lang removed]

Post by qquito
Before I posted my question, I had done what you suggested. I checked
all the major European languages but left a few unchecked. And now I
checked again. Well, of all the languages available for the entry
"Biscay", only one of them is "Biscaya", the one I am asking about,
and it is Swedish (Svenska).

It might help you to know that in Spanish and some other languages
(Basque? I don't know.), initial B and V, or at the start of a
stressed syllable, are interchangeable. Hence Viscaya = Biscaya,
Havana = Habana, etc. In doing my family tree I learned that Saenz
de Varanda is interchangeable with Saenz de Baranda. Varela is
sometimes seen as Barela, but rarely^W seldom.

Speaking of Varela --- are you at all related to "Chuy" Varela who used to
host the KPFA radio show "La Onda Bajita"?

[John Varela]

Post by alan

Post by John Varela
[sci.lang removed]

Post by qquito
Before I posted my question, I had done what you suggested. I checked
all the major European languages but left a few unchecked. And now I
checked again. Well, of all the languages available for the entry
"Biscay", only one of them is "Biscaya", the one I am asking about,
and it is Swedish (Svenska).

It might help you to know that in Spanish and some other languages
(Basque? I don't know.), initial B and V, or at the start of a
stressed syllable, are interchangeable. Hence Viscaya = Biscaya,
Havana = Habana, etc. In doing my family tree I learned that Saenz
de Varanda is interchangeable with Saenz de Baranda. Varela is
sometimes seen as Barela, but rarely^W seldom.

Speaking of Varela --- are you at all related to "Chuy" Varela who used to
host the KPFA radio show "La Onda Bajita"?

No, I've never heard of him or the show. As far as I know I have no
relatives in the western hemisphere named Varela other than my wife
and our children and grandchildren.

[Christian Weisgerber]

Post by qquito
"Biscaya" ( http://youtu.be/z-f7UWa4UYI ) is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of James Last's big band.
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

German does and, quelle surprise, James Last is German.

[Joachim Pense]

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by qquito
"Biscaya" ( http://youtu.be/z-f7UWa4UYI ) is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of James Last's big band.
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

German does and, quelle surprise, James Last is German.

Who, by the way, has the real name "Hans Last". I wonder if the a in
"Hans Last" should be pronounced short.

Joachim

[James Hogg]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by qquito
"Biscaya" ( http://youtu.be/z-f7UWa4UYI ) is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of James Last's big band.
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

German does and, quelle surprise, James Last is German.

Who, by the way, has the real name "Hans Last". I wonder if the a in
"Hans Last" should be pronounced short.

I don't think the name should be pronounced at all.

[Joachim Pense]

Post by James Hogg

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by qquito
"Biscaya" ( http://youtu.be/z-f7UWa4UYI ) is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of James Last's big band.
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

German does and, quelle surprise, James Last is German.

Who, by the way, has the real name "Hans Last". I wonder if the a in
"Hans Last" should be pronounced short.

I don't think the name should be pronounced at all.

As long as no one plays his records, ...

Joachim

[Urs Beeli]

["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by qquito
"Biscaya" ( http://youtu.be/z-f7UWa4UYI ) is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of James Last's big band.
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

German does and, quelle surprise, James Last is German.

Who, by the way, has the real name "Hans Last". I wonder if the a in
"Hans Last" should be pronounced short.

Yes, the name Hans is *always* pronounced with a short A in German.

Cheers
/urs

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Urs Beeli
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by qquito
"Biscaya" ( http://youtu.be/z-f7UWa4UYI ) is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of James Last's big band.
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

German does and, quelle surprise, James Last is German.

Who, by the way, has the real name "Hans Last". I wonder if the a in
"Hans Last" should be pronounced short.

Yes, the name Hans is *always* pronounced with a short A in German.

So, much the same as AusE "Hun's lust".

[Urs Beeli]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Urs Beeli
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by qquito
"Biscaya" ( http://youtu.be/z-f7UWa4UYI ) is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of James Last's big band.
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

German does and, quelle surprise, James Last is German.

Who, by the way, has the real name "Hans Last". I wonder if the a in
"Hans Last" should be pronounced short.

Yes, the name Hans is *always* pronounced with a short A in German.

So, much the same as AusE "Hun's lust".

Yes, that would be pretty close.

Cheers
/urs

[Hans Aberg]

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Christian Weisgerber
German does and, quelle surprise, James Last is German.

Who, by the way, has the real name "Hans Last". I wonder if the a in
"Hans Last" should be pronounced short.

Yes, the name Hans is *always* pronounced with a short A in German.

And with a long A in Swedish.

[Joachim Pense]

Post by Urs Beeli
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]

Post by Joachim Pense

Post by Christian Weisgerber

Post by qquito
"Biscaya" ( http://youtu.be/z-f7UWa4UYI ) is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of James Last's big band.
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

German does and, quelle surprise, James Last is German.

Who, by the way, has the real name "Hans Last". I wonder if the a in
"Hans Last" should be pronounced short.

Yes, the name Hans is *always* pronounced with a short A in German.

OK, I was talking about the "Last" name.

Joachim

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Urs Beeli
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]

Fixed, because it's unspeakably rude to cut most of the participants
in the discussion out of the discussion.

(Nothing below, that's all I had to say.)

Post by Urs Beeli

Post by Christian Weisgerber

"Biscaya" http://youtu.be/z-f7UWa4UYI is the title
of one of the very popular pieces of  James Last's big band.
I am a bit confused with the meaning of the title. Does it refer to
"Bay of Biscay"? I don't know a European language that calls "Bay of
Biscay" Biscaya.

German does and, quelle surprise, James Last is German.

 Who, by the way, has the real name "Hans Last". I wonder if the a in
 "Hans Last" should be pronounced short.

Yes, the name Hans is *always* pronounced with a short A in German.