Life down South

[Leslie Danks]

Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or is it
singer's licence?

[Maria Conlon]

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or is it
singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

The term "honky-tonk" sounded like "honky-tonk" to me.

However, most of the mentions of "Mississippi" sounded like
"Messessippi."

It reminds me of how often people pronounce "Illinois" as "Ellinois."

Lots of "i"s get turned into "e"s these days. That, or my hearing is way
worse than I thought.

Too fussy for my own good,
Maria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of
east Tennessee.

[R H Draney]

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or is it
singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

The term "honky-tonk" sounded like "honky-tonk" to me.

I agree with the person who commented that "honky tonky tonk" should have been
"honky tonk guitar"....

Post by Maria Conlon
However, most of the mentions of "Mississippi" sounded like
"Messessippi."

Have a listen to Jerry Clower some time...it's always "Missippi" in his stories,
and he should know (certainly better than Tom Lehrer's "Missuh-sippuh")....r

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Post by R H Draney
Have a listen to Jerry Clower some time...it's always "Missippi" in
his stories, and he should know (certainly better than Tom Lehrer's
"Missuh-sippuh")....r

Yeah, but anybody who'd try to rhyme with "Yom Kippur" deserves a bit
of leeway.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |It is one thing to be mistaken; it is
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |quite another to be willfully
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |ignorant
| Cecil Adams
***@hpl.hp.com
[phone]

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Maria Conlon]

Post by R H Draney

Post by Maria Conlon
However, most of the mentions of "Mississippi" sounded like
"Messessippi."

Have a listen to Jerry Clower some time...it's always "Missippi" in his stories,
and he should know (certainly better than Tom Lehrer's
"Missuh-sippuh")....r

Jerry Clower (any connection to Clifton Clowers?) isn't the only one to
reduce Mississipi to three syllables. In fact, it seems rather common in
parts of the South. Which parts? I'm not sure. All I know is that I've
heard it even in Michigan from people who moved here from "down South."
(I can't remember hearing it from my relatives in Tennessee.)

And then there's Mizsip', where the final 'i' is just a given.

[LFS]

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by R H Draney

Post by Maria Conlon
However, most of the mentions of "Mississippi" sounded like
"Messessippi."

Have a listen to Jerry Clower some time...it's always "Missippi" in his stories,
and he should know (certainly better than Tom Lehrer's
"Missuh-sippuh")....r

Jerry Clower (any connection to Clifton Clowers?)

Oh, Maria! It's very unusual for me to get STS from one of *your* posts!

isn't the only one to

Post by Maria Conlon
reduce Mississipi to three syllables. In fact, it seems rather common in
parts of the South. Which parts? I'm not sure. All I know is that I've
heard it even in Michigan from people who moved here from "down South."
(I can't remember hearing it from my relatives in Tennessee.)
And then there's Mizsip', where the final 'i' is just a given.

[Leslie Danks]

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or is it
singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

The term "honky-tonk" sounded like "honky-tonk" to me.

I tried very hard, but the "k" eluded me. Perhaps the fault lies in my
ears.

Post by Maria Conlon
However, most of the mentions of "Mississippi" sounded like
"Messessippi."

Now you mention it, it sounds to me more like "Messissippi".

The song sounded the same (to me) fifteen years later (1991), though the
setting has been updated slightly:

And in the 1998 version I still can't hear the "k"; but perhaps they're
miming it already. I suppose the technology in the background represents
the progress made during the intervening years:

Post by Maria Conlon
It reminds me of how often people pronounce "Illinois" as "Ellinois."
Lots of "i"s get turned into "e"s these days. That, or my hearing is way
worse than I thought.

[Maria Conlon]

Post by Leslie Danks

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or
is
it
singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

The term "honky-tonk" sounded like "honky-tonk" to me.

I tried very hard, but the "k" eluded me. Perhaps the fault lies in my
ears.

Post by Maria Conlon
However, most of the mentions of "Mississippi" sounded like
"Messessippi."

Now you mention it, it sounds to me more like "Messissippi".

Hmm. Could be.

Post by Leslie Danks
The song sounded the same (to me) fifteen years later (1991), though the
http://youtu.be/fbda12kk_Xw

Okay, now I hear "honky-tong." So I went back to the first video, and
listened again. Tong. (Power of suggestion?)

Post by Leslie Danks
And in the 1998 version I still can't hear the "k"; but perhaps they're
miming it already. I suppose the technology in the background
represents
http://youtu.be/3tLoFnu4J1c

Definitely tong. Maybe you've mesmerized me.

Post by Leslie Danks
Les (BrE)
Sometimes obsessive

Only sometimes? I'm more "full-time."
Maria Conlon (AmE)

[R H Draney]

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Leslie Danks

Post by Maria Conlon
The term "honky-tonk" sounded like "honky-tonk" to me.

I tried very hard, but the "k" eluded me. Perhaps the fault lies in my
ears.

Okay, now I hear "honky-tong." So I went back to the first video, and
listened again. Tong. (Power of suggestion?)

Post by Leslie Danks
And in the 1998 version I still can't hear the "k"; but perhaps they're
miming it already. I suppose the technology in the background
represents
http://youtu.be/3tLoFnu4J1c

Definitely tong. Maybe you've mesmerized me.

Possibly related Google count:

"hong kong" 315,000,000
"honk kong" 252,000

Not exactly a groundswell, but I seem to keep running into it....r

[Frank ess]

Post by R H Draney

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Leslie Danks

Post by Maria Conlon
The term "honky-tonk" sounded like "honky-tonk" to me.

I tried very hard, but the "k" eluded me. Perhaps the fault lies
in my ears.

Okay, now I hear "honky-tong." So I went back to the first video,
and listened again. Tong. (Power of suggestion?)

Post by Leslie Danks
And in the 1998 version I still can't hear the "k"; but perhaps they're
miming it already. I suppose the technology in the background represents
http://youtu.be/3tLoFnu4J1c

Definitely tong. Maybe you've mesmerized me.

"hong kong" 315,000,000
"honk kong" 252,000
Not exactly a groundswell, but I seem to keep running into it....r

On another, slightly different tack:

"hongcouver" 7,720
"hong couver" 646

[Frank ess]

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than
"honky-tonk"--or is it
singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

The term "honky-tonk" sounded like "honky-tonk" to me.
However, most of the mentions of "Mississippi" sounded like
"Messessippi."
It reminds me of how often people pronounce "Illinois" as
"Ellinois."
Lots of "i"s get turned into "e"s these days. That, or my hearing
is way worse than I thought.
Too fussy for my own good,
Maria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native
of east Tennessee.

I don't mind the "i"s sliding into "e"s as much as the "o"s becoming
"u"s: Public radio news folks seem to see "Uhfficial" where I expect
"Ohfficial', for instance.

[Maria Conlon]

Post by Frank ess

Post by Maria Conlon
It reminds me of how often people pronounce "Illinois" as
"Ellinois."
Lots of "i"s get turned into "e"s these days. That, or my hearing
is way worse than I thought.
Too fussy for my own good,
Maria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native
of east Tennessee.

I don't mind the "i"s sliding into "e"s as much as the "o"s becoming
"u"s: Public radio news folks seem to see "Uhfficial" where I expect
"Ohfficial', for instance.

Would it be a matter of the preceding word/letter?

An @fficial (an "uh" or a schwa for the "a")
The official (the o definite).

Maria Conlon

[Frank ess]

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Frank ess

Post by Maria Conlon
It reminds me of how often people pronounce "Illinois" as
"Ellinois."
Lots of "i"s get turned into "e"s these days. That, or my hearing
is way worse than I thought.
Too fussy for my own good,
Maria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native
of east Tennessee.

I don't mind the "i"s sliding into "e"s as much as the "o"s
becoming "u"s: Public radio news folks seem to see "Uhfficial"
where I expect "Ohfficial', for instance.

Would it be a matter of the preceding word/letter?
The official (the o definite).
Maria Conlon

I hear it consistently, regardless of preceders.

"Uhfficials announced the uhlimination of "meal ready to eat" as a
description of anything extant in this universe."

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Frank ess

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than
"honky-tonk"--or is it
singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

The term "honky-tonk" sounded like "honky-tonk" to me.
However, most of the mentions of "Mississippi" sounded like
"Messessippi."
It reminds me of how often people pronounce "Illinois" as
"Ellinois."
Lots of "i"s get turned into "e"s these days. That, or my hearing
is way worse than I thought.
Too fussy for my own good,
Maria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native
of east Tennessee.

I don't mind the "i"s sliding into "e"s as much as the "o"s becoming
"u"s: Public radio news folks seem to see "Uhfficial" where I expect
"Ohfficial', for instance.

The pronunciation with the schwa is the first in M-W. "Ohfficial" is
second; that pronunciation would never occur to me (partly because
there's no "oh" in "office").

I'll bet AHD has the reverse order--but horrors! It's not on line at
Bartleby any more!

--
Jerry Friedman

[Garrett Wollman]

In article <2a4a19bf-68d6-4b2a-93de-***@x5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
Jerry Friedman <***@yahoo.com> wrote:

[re: "official"]

Post by Jerry Friedman
The pronunciation with the schwa is the first in M-W. "Ohfficial" is
second; that pronunciation would never occur to me (partly because
there's no "oh" in "office").
I'll bet AHD has the reverse order--but horrors! It's not on line at
Bartleby any more!

You lose. My harccopy AHD3 only recognizes /@'***@l/.

-GAWollman

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Garrett Wollman
[re: "official"]

The pronunciation with the schwa is the first in M-W.  "Ohfficial" is
second; that pronunciation would never occur to me (partly because
there's no "oh" in "office").
I'll bet AHD has the reverse order--but horrors!  It's not on line at
Bartleby any more!

Thanks. I'm glad it wasn't a very big bet.

The NSOED also shows only the pronunciation with a schwa, and likewise
the dictionaries at dictionary.com, except Webster's Revised
Unabridged Dictionary, which says Of*fi"cial\ whatever that means.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Maria Conlon]

Post by Jerry Friedman
I'll bet AHD has the reverse order--but horrors! It's not on line at
Bartleby any more!

OneLook Dictionary Search lists American Heritage (with a definition)
when I look up the word "official," but when I click on the listing,
there's no real information about AHD, just Bartleby. (Or am I missing
something?)
See http://www.onelook.com/?w=official&ls=a

And when going directly to the Bartleby site, there's also no mention of
AHD.
http://www.bartleby.com/

The latest AHD seems to be the Fourth Edition (which I have in print).
Anyone know if it's still being published?

Related matter: It seems that less and less is available -- for free --
online these days. And much of what /is/ available (for free) is loaded
with advertising. Why am I not surprised?

[Peter Duncanson (BrE)]

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 22:44:03 -0400, "Maria Conlon"

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Jerry Friedman
I'll bet AHD has the reverse order--but horrors! It's not on line at
Bartleby any more!

OneLook Dictionary Search lists American Heritage (with a definition)
when I look up the word "official," but when I click on the listing,
there's no real information about AHD, just Bartleby. (Or am I missing
something?)
See http://www.onelook.com/?w=official&ls=a
And when going directly to the Bartleby site, there's also no mention of
AHD.
http://www.bartleby.com/
The latest AHD seems to be the Fourth Edition (which I have in print).
Anyone know if it's still being published?
Related matter: It seems that less and less is available -- for free --
online these days. And much of what /is/ available (for free) is loaded
with advertising. Why am I not surprised?

The Encarta online dictionary will be withdrawn later this year.
http://encarta.msn.com/guide_page_FAQ/FAQ.html

On October 31, 2009, MSN® Encarta® Web sites worldwide will be
discontinued, with the exception of Encarta Japan, which will be
discontinued on December 31, 2009. Additionally, Microsoft will
cease to sell Microsoft Student and Encarta Premium software
products worldwide by June 2009.

[Cece]

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or is it
singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

The term "honky-tonk" sounded like "honky-tonk" to me.
However, most of the mentions of "Mississippi" sounded like
"Messessippi."
It reminds me of how often people pronounce "Illinois" as "Ellinois."
Lots of "i"s get turned into "e"s these days. That, or my hearing is way
worse than I thought.
Too fussy for my own good,
Maria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of
east Tennessee.

It's the "pin/pen" thing, I think. Used to be peculiar to West Texas,
I've heard. A friend told me about her co-worker, a visiting speech
therapist checking hospitalized kids who commented that they all had
the same speech defect, and the friend, who'd been in Texas longer,
told her it was accent. When I moved to Texas 40 years ago, I
encountered it with "tin/ten"; the folks in West Texas did not hear
the difference. Nor did they say it. They do not use /E/ or /I/, but
something between! This is spreading; I've seen a map showing this
covering a huge area of the U.S., and I encounter it myself in folks
who've never been near West Texas.

[Maria Conlon]

Post by Cece

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or
is
it singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

The term "honky-tonk" sounded like "honky-tonk" to me.
However, most of the mentions of "Mississippi" sounded like
"Messessippi."
It reminds me of how often people pronounce "Illinois" as "Ellinois."
Lots of "i"s get turned into "e"s these days. That, or my hearing is way
worse than I thought.
Too fussy for my own good,
Maria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of
east Tennessee.

It's the "pin/pen" thing, I think. Used to be peculiar to West Texas,
I've heard. A friend told me about her co-worker, a visiting speech
therapist checking hospitalized kids who commented that they all had
the same speech defect, and the friend, who'd been in Texas longer,
told her it was accent. When I moved to Texas 40 years ago, I
encountered it with "tin/ten"; the folks in West Texas did not hear
the difference. Nor did they say it. They do not use /E/ or /I/, but
something between! This is spreading; I've seen a map showing this
covering a huge area of the U.S., and I encounter it myself in folks
who've never been near West Texas.

I'm wondering if you heard two syllables from the matching "tin" and
"ten." Sort of like a slurred "tee-in." That's something I've heard in
Tennessee. Context provides the meaning, though I'm now trying to come
up with a sentence where context wouldn't help.

[Roland Hutchinson]

Post by Cece

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or is it
singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

The term "honky-tonk" sounded like "honky-tonk" to me.
However, most of the mentions of "Mississippi" sounded like
"Messessippi."
It reminds me of how often people pronounce "Illinois" as "Ellinois."
Lots of "i"s get turned into "e"s these days. That, or my hearing is way
worse than I thought.
Too fussy for my own good,
Maria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of
east Tennessee.

It's the "pin/pen" thing, I think. Used to be peculiar to West Texas,
I've heard. A friend told me about her co-worker, a visiting speech
therapist checking hospitalized kids who commented that they all had
the same speech defect, and the friend, who'd been in Texas longer,
told her it was accent. When I moved to Texas 40 years ago, I
encountered it with "tin/ten"; the folks in West Texas did not hear
the difference. Nor did they say it. They do not use /E/ or /I/, but
something between! This is spreading; I've seen a map showing this
covering a huge area of the U.S., and I encounter it myself in folks
who've never been near West Texas.

It's a pronunciation difference that you can sometimes spot in writing: if a
persons writes about an "ink pen" (meaning a ballpoint/biro or similar
implement) odds are they have the vowel merger.

("Ink pen" as distinguished from "hat pin", "straight pin" or "safety pin",
that is.)

[Evan Kirshenbaum]

Post by Roland Hutchinson
It's a pronunciation difference that you can sometimes spot in
writing: if a persons writes about an "ink pen" (meaning a
ballpoint/biro or similar implement) odds are they have the vowel
merger.
("Ink pen" as distinguished from "hat pin", "straight pin" or
"safety pin", that is.)

I had thought that the canonical opposite of "ink pen" was "sticking
pin".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The purpose of writing is to inflate
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning,
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and inhibit clarity. With a little
|practice, writing can be an
***@hpl.hp.com |intimidating and impenetrable fog!
[phone] | Calvin

http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

[Pat Durkin]

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Roland Hutchinson
It's a pronunciation difference that you can sometimes spot in
writing: if a persons writes about an "ink pen" (meaning a
ballpoint/biro or similar implement) odds are they have the vowel
merger.
("Ink pen" as distinguished from "hat pin", "straight pin" or
"safety pin", that is.)

I had thought that the canonical opposite of "ink pen" was "sticking
pin".

I can recall saying "stick pen*" (as well as "ink pen") and "stick
pin"(which my mother called a "common pin").

*Yes, we dipped when learning to write with pen and ink.

[Robin Bignall]

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Evan Kirshenbaum

Post by Roland Hutchinson
It's a pronunciation difference that you can sometimes spot in
writing: if a persons writes about an "ink pen" (meaning a
ballpoint/biro or similar implement) odds are they have the vowel
merger.
("Ink pen" as distinguished from "hat pin", "straight pin" or
"safety pin", that is.)

I had thought that the canonical opposite of "ink pen" was "sticking
pin".

I can recall saying "stick pen*" (as well as "ink pen") and "stick
pin"(which my mother called a "common pin").
*Yes, we dipped when learning to write with pen and ink.

So did we. If you broke the tips off the pens we used they turned
into darts with two sharp points. Aimed carefully they'd stick into
the blackboard without bouncing off.

[HVS]

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:39:57 -0500, "Pat Durkin"

Post by Pat Durkin
*Yes, we dipped when learning to write with pen and ink.

So did we. If you broke the tips off the pens we used they
turned into darts with two sharp points. Aimed carefully they'd
stick into the blackboard without bouncing off.

Ha! Amateurs! If you were a good shot WIWAL, you flicked it hard
enough to make it stick into the ceiling.

[Robin Bignall]

Post by HVS

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:39:57 -0500, "Pat Durkin"

Post by Pat Durkin
*Yes, we dipped when learning to write with pen and ink.

So did we. If you broke the tips off the pens we used they
turned into darts with two sharp points. Aimed carefully they'd
stick into the blackboard without bouncing off.

Ha! Amateurs! If you were a good shot WIWAL, you flicked it hard
enough to make it stick into the ceiling.

There was no fun sticking them to the ceiling: the teachers we
disliked were in front of the board, and the one to stick a pen
nearest to them got the kudos. These were the days of corporal
punishment, and the whole class got strapped with a three-tonged tawse
on several occasions.

[Leslie Danks]

[...]

Post by Robin Bignall

Post by HVS
Ha! Amateurs! If you were a good shot WIWAL, you flicked it hard
enough to make it stick into the ceiling.

There was no fun sticking them to the ceiling: the teachers we
disliked were in front of the board, and the one to stick a pen
nearest to them got the kudos. These were the days of corporal
punishment, and the whole class got strapped with a three-tonged tawse
on several occasions.

Were your wounds then dressed with vinegar and brown paper in traditional
Royal Navy fashion?

[Robin Bignall]

Post by Leslie Danks
[...]

Post by Robin Bignall

Post by HVS
Ha! Amateurs! If you were a good shot WIWAL, you flicked it hard
enough to make it stick into the ceiling.

There was no fun sticking them to the ceiling: the teachers we
disliked were in front of the board, and the one to stick a pen
nearest to them got the kudos. These were the days of corporal
punishment, and the whole class got strapped with a three-tonged tawse
on several occasions.

Were your wounds then dressed with vinegar and brown paper in traditional
Royal Navy fashion?

You were supposed to bear it and not grin, or they'd give you another
for luck.

[Pat Durkin]

Post by Robin Bignall

Post by HVS

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:39:57 -0500, "Pat Durkin"

Post by Pat Durkin
*Yes, we dipped when learning to write with pen and ink.

So did we. If you broke the tips off the pens we used they
turned into darts with two sharp points. Aimed carefully they'd
stick into the blackboard without bouncing off.

Ha! Amateurs! If you were a good shot WIWAL, you flicked it hard
enough to make it stick into the ceiling.

There was no fun sticking them to the ceiling: the teachers we
disliked were in front of the board, and the one to stick a pen
nearest to them got the kudos. These were the days of corporal
punishment, and the whole class got strapped with a three-tonged tawse
on several occasions.

http://www.archivist.f2s.com/cpa/written/tawsed.htm

Man, that is a healthy piece of leather. I know my dad took down his
razor strop (same conformation, but not split, and a hole at each end to
loop out of the way when not in use) to discipline us, but by the time
he got it off the hook, we were out the door and down to the crick. He
was really too soft-hearted to use any weapon, even his hand. But it
got us out of his hair until he could cool off.

[Robin Bignall]

Post by Pat Durkin

Post by Robin Bignall

Post by HVS

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:39:57 -0500, "Pat Durkin"

Post by Pat Durkin
*Yes, we dipped when learning to write with pen and ink.

So did we. If you broke the tips off the pens we used they
turned into darts with two sharp points. Aimed carefully they'd
stick into the blackboard without bouncing off.

Ha! Amateurs! If you were a good shot WIWAL, you flicked it hard
enough to make it stick into the ceiling.

There was no fun sticking them to the ceiling: the teachers we
disliked were in front of the board, and the one to stick a pen
nearest to them got the kudos. These were the days of corporal
punishment, and the whole class got strapped with a three-tonged tawse
on several occasions.

http://www.archivist.f2s.com/cpa/written/tawsed.htm
Man, that is a healthy piece of leather. I know my dad took down his
razor strop (same conformation, but not split, and a hole at each end to
loop out of the way when not in use) to discipline us, but by the time
he got it off the hook, we were out the door and down to the crick. He
was really too soft-hearted to use any weapon, even his hand. But it
got us out of his hair until he could cool off.

That was it, except that the ones used in my school had a wider handle
end which was wrapped round a piece of wood to give a good grip.

[Pat Durkin]

Post by HVS

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:39:57 -0500, "Pat Durkin"

Post by Pat Durkin
*Yes, we dipped when learning to write with pen and ink.

So did we. If you broke the tips off the pens we used they
turned into darts with two sharp points. Aimed carefully they'd
stick into the blackboard without bouncing off.

Ha! Amateurs! If you were a good shot WIWAL, you flicked it hard
enough to make it stick into the ceiling.

Plastered ceilings? Well, maybe, if the plaster had fallen off,
exposing the laths. No kidding. I wouldn't have tried that trick.
Nuns had eyes on the tops of their heads, in their ears, and the backs
of their heads, as well. Too much for me as a second and third grader.

[Mike Lyle]

Post by HVS

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 01:39:57 -0500, "Pat Durkin"

Post by Pat Durkin
*Yes, we dipped when learning to write with pen and ink.

So did we. If you broke the tips off the pens we used they
turned into darts with two sharp points. Aimed carefully they'd
stick into the blackboard without bouncing off.

Ha! Amateurs! If you were a good shot WIWAL, you flicked it hard
enough to make it stick into the ceiling.

If you tied on a short length of thread, it acted as a stabilizer, like
the tail of a kite, and the nib would then be quite accurate.

[John Kane]

Post by Roland Hutchinson
It's a pronunciation difference that you can sometimes spot in writing: if a
persons writes about an "ink pen" (meaning a ballpoint/biro or similar
implement) odds are they have the vowel merger.
("Ink pen" as distinguished from "hat pin", "straight pin" or "safety pin",
that is.)

I have only heard 'ink pen' used once. I had jokingly handed a 15 year
old my fountain pen and he, after a moment's shock demanded an 'ink
pen'. Is it a common term? His pronunciation of pen was nowhere near
that of pin.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

[Nick]

Post by John Kane

Post by Roland Hutchinson
It's a pronunciation difference that you can sometimes spot in writing: if a
persons writes about an "ink pen" (meaning a ballpoint/biro or similar
implement) odds are they have the vowel merger.
("Ink pen" as distinguished from "hat pin", "straight pin" or "safety pin",
that is.)

I have only heard 'ink pen' used once. I had jokingly handed a 15 year
old my fountain pen and he, after a moment's shock demanded an 'ink
pen'. Is it a common term? His pronunciation of pen was nowhere near
that of pin.

And yet it's common:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=inkpen&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=18.094759,39.550781&ie=UTF8&ll=51.326965,-1.516457&spn=0.149101,0.30899&t=h&z=12

[John Holmes]

Post by Nick

Post by John Kane
I have only heard 'ink pen' used once. I had jokingly handed a 15
year old my fountain pen and he, after a moment's shock demanded an
'ink pen'. Is it a common term? His pronunciation of pen was
nowhere near that of pin.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=inkpen&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=18.094759,39.550781&ie=UTF8&ll=51.326965,-1.516457&spn=0.149101,0.30899&t=h&z=12

Is that where the surname Ingpen comes from? Or do I have another
thingpen coming?

[Mike Lyle]

John Holmes wrote:
[...]>

Post by John Holmes
Is that where the surname Ingpen comes from? Or do I have another
thingpen coming?

The authorities can't decide whether it's a near-Torpenhow, meaning
"hill hill", or "hill enclosure".

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by Maria Conlon
Too fussy for my own good,
Maria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of
east Tennessee.

Shall we get fussy as well over the BBC announcers who think you live
in "Mitchigan", or is that actually attested among natives?

-GAWollman

[Maria Conlon]

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Maria Conlon
Too fussy for my own good,
Maria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of
east Tennessee.

Shall we get fussy as well over the BBC announcers who think you live
in "Mitchigan", or is that actually attested among natives?

I may have heard "Mitchigan" a time or two (in Michigan), but it was
probably from people who do not speak English as a first language.
That's okay with me. If they stay here, they'll learn, before long, how
to say the state's name. Just listening to radio or TV should do the
trick.

As for people who do not live in the United States, they may well
mispronounce certain geographical names simply because they have never
heard those names pronounced by a "native."

So, no -- let's not get fussy over non-Americans mispronouncing the
names of American locales.

Remaining fussy about "Ellinois" for "Illinois" from Americans,
and recognizing "Tinnessee" as a legitimate and common alternate to
"Tennessee,"
Maria Conlon,
Resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit (Daytwa); native of east
Tennessee.

[John O'Flaherty]

On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:49:40 -0400, "Maria Conlon"

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Garrett Wollman

Post by Maria Conlon
Too fussy for my own good,
Maria Conlon, resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit; native of
east Tennessee.

Shall we get fussy as well over the BBC announcers who think you live
in "Mitchigan", or is that actually attested among natives?

I may have heard "Mitchigan" a time or two (in Michigan), but it was
probably from people who do not speak English as a first language.
That's okay with me. If they stay here, they'll learn, before long, how
to say the state's name. Just listening to radio or TV should do the
trick.
As for people who do not live in the United States, they may well
mispronounce certain geographical names simply because they have never
heard those names pronounced by a "native."
So, no -- let's not get fussy over non-Americans mispronouncing the
names of American locales.
Remaining fussy about "Ellinois" for "Illinois" from Americans,
and recognizing "Tinnessee" as a legitimate and common alternate to
"Tennessee,"

The pronunciation of Illinois has been around for a while -
http://lincoln.lib.niu.edu/Songs/el-a-noy!.html
I have a recording of that by Salli Terri.

[Maria Conlon]

Post by John O'Flaherty

Post by Maria Conlon
Remaining fussy about "Ellinois" for "Illinois" from Americans,
and recognizing "Tinnessee" as a legitimate and common alternate to
"Tennessee,"

The pronunciation of Illinois has been around for a while -
http://lincoln.lib.niu.edu/Songs/el-a-noy!.html
I have a recording of that by Salli Terri.

Yes, "Ellinois" is common, but I think the teachers I encountered in
grade school and beyond made a point about pronouncing names and words
correctly. Of course, not /all/ names and words came up in discussion,
and therefore my pronunciation is not totally right.

Maria Conlon,
Still pronouncing "Obama" as &^*%$(*.

[CDB]

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or
is it singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

It sounds like "honky-tong" to me too. Pussycat is a Dutch band,
according to Wikipedia, so small mispronunciations can't really be
held against them. I don't know if this one says anything about Dutch
handling of / N/ and / Nk/.

[Leslie Danks]

Post by CDB

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or
is it singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

It sounds like "honky-tong" to me too. Pussycat is a Dutch band,

That I didn't know. Get a load of this guy:

<http://tinyurl.com/nxogaj>

who seems to be singing "honky-tonkitar".

Post by CDB
according to Wikipedia, so small mispronunciations can't really be
held against them. I don't know if this one says anything about Dutch
handling of / N/ and / Nk/.

[CDB]

Post by Leslie Danks

Post by CDB

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than
"honky-tonk"--or is it singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

It sounds like "honky-tong" to me too. Pussycat is a Dutch band,

http://tinyurl.com/nxogaj
who seems to be singing "honky-tonkitar".

Yes, or "-tongkhitar" or "-tongghitar". In Dutch this time, so maybe
the English is indeed a substrate problem.

[...]

[Robert Lieblich]

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or is it
singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

I'd say they have another thing coming.

[Maria Conlon]

Post by Robert Lieblich

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or is it
singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

I'd say they have another thing coming.
Bob Lieblich
Who could use another thing

Wouldn't another thing be one too many?

[Robert Lieblich]

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Robert Lieblich

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than "honky-tonk"--or is it
singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

I'd say they have another thing coming.
Bob Lieblich
Who could use another thing

Wouldn't another thing be one too many?

Only if I already have enough things.

Whoops! I'm starting to feel like Rey-bait.

[Maria Conlon]

Post by Robert Lieblich

Post by Maria Conlon

Post by Robert Lieblich

Post by Leslie Danks
Do some people really say "honky-tong" rather than
"honky-tonk"--or
is it
singer's licence?
http://youtu.be/NfY0yJyTjjE

I'd say they have another thing coming.
Bob Lieblich
Who could use another thing

Wouldn't another thing be one too many?

Only if I already have enough things.
Whoops! I'm starting to feel like Rey-bait.
Bob Lieblich
Let's forget the whole other thing

Oh, okay, but some mentions of things just call for comment (and
smiles).