"Shirley"

On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

Post by Arcadian Rises
Trust me, I checked the dictionaries, I also googled <define
"Shirley"> but couldn't find the meaning of "Shirley" used in this
forum by our British contributors.
Won't a gentle soul please take the trouble to explain that meaning?

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"

It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Garrett Wollman

2007-08-20 03:19:23 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

Specifically, it's a reference to the movie "Airplane", in which a
running gag has Leslie Nielsen's character, Dr. Rumack, responding to
questions that begin "Surely," with "... and stop calling me Shirley".

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
***@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Oleg Lego

2007-08-20 03:53:58 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

While that may be true in some cases, I can assure you that when I say
it, I say it not as a reference to a film, but as an original (with
me) coinage, predating _Airplane_ by many years.

Note that I do not claim to be the only one who coined it.

Mike M

2007-08-20 10:20:47 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

While that may be true in some cases, I can assure you that when I say
it, I say it not as a reference to a film, but as an original (with
me) coinage, predating _Airplane_ by many years.
Note that I do not claim to be the only one who coined it

For some reason, the phrase that always springs to my mind is: "Surely
you can't be serious?", the response being: "Yes I am. And stop
calling me Shirley".

It's from a ways back. I suspect "Around the Horne".

Mike

Donna Richoux

2007-08-20 11:18:11 UTC

Post by Oleg Lego

Post by tony cooper
You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

While that may be true in some cases, I can assure you that when I say
it, I say it not as a reference to a film, but as an original (with
me) coinage, predating _Airplane_ by many years.
Note that I do not claim to be the only one who coined it.

For what it's worth, the movie Airplane came out in 1980. So far,
the earliest hit I find in Google Books is exactly as you say, in a
movie critic's discussion of "Airplane!"

Roger Ebert's Movie Home Companion, 1990 Edition:
Full Length Reviews of Twenty Years of Movies ... -
Page 11 by Roger Ebert - Performing Arts - 1989
Nielsen: And stop calling me Shirley!
This sort of humor went out
with Milton Berle, Jerry Lewis, and knock-knock
jokes. That's why it's so funny.

All the other results in Google Books I find that refer specifically to
the wordplay "surely/shirley" are from 1990 and after. Dismissing any
results that refer to actual people or characters named Shirley, the
first dates for the wordplay are:

"calling me Shirley" 1989 (above)
"Don't call me Shirley"1990.
"My name is not Shirley" 2002
"My name's not Shirley" 2003
"My name isn't Shirley" 0
"My name ain't Shirley" 0
"I'm not Shirley" 0
"I am not Shirley" 0
"Who's Shirley" 0
"Who is Shirley" 0

Examples of other hits that are irrelevant coincidence:
"My name is not Shirley" 1859 (in a novel about assumed identity)
"calling me Shirley" 1966, about a character Shirley
"My name isn't Shirley" (1999, an English course for Chinese)

Although it sounds quite reasonable to guess that people have been
sponatenously making this joke for decades before "Airplane!", they
don't seem to have put it into any of the thousands of books that Google
indexes, until after the movie.

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

the Omrud

2007-08-20 12:29:37 UTC

Post by Donna Richoux
Although it sounds quite reasonable to guess that people have been
sponatenously making this joke for decades before "Airplane!", they
don't seem to have put it into any of the thousands of books that Google
indexes, until after the movie.

Manchester's Piccadilly Radio (a station so popular in the late 70s
that it's now difficult to believe) had a DJ named Dave Ward, who
seems to have picked up on the joke very early. He referred to it so
much that he became known as "Dave 'Shirley' Ward", and later as
"Curly Shirley" because of his blond curls.

I can't provide any evidence but I know I was listening to him
talking about not being Shirley in 1981 or 1982, because of where we
were living at the time. So we were certainly familiar with it by
the early part of the 80s even if we hadn't seen the film by they (I
know we hadn't because we tried to watch it in France on holiday in
1983 but went to the cinema on the wrong day).

--
David
=====

tony cooper

2007-08-20 14:24:37 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

I don't think "reference" is the right word here. The person who
writes "Shirley..." isn't referring to the movie even though the term
was (first used) (popularized by) the movie. To be a reference to the
movie the person writing it must have that movie in mind. I think
that many of the people who write "Shirley you..." haven't seen the
movie or don't know it was used in the film.

I'm not one to use "Shirley...", but if I did, it wouldn't be a
reference to "Airplane". Until this thread came along I didn't
associate the phrase with that movie. I did see the movie, but I
don't remember the phrase being used in the movie.

--
Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

the Omrud

2007-08-20 14:32:06 UTC

Post by tony cooper
I'm not one to use "Shirley...", but if I did, it wouldn't be a
reference to "Airplane". Until this thread came along I didn't
associate the phrase with that movie. I did see the movie, but I
don't remember the phrase being used in the movie.

Shirley, you can't be serious.

--
David
=====

Dominic Bojarski

2007-08-20 16:52:44 UTC

Post by tony cooper

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

I don't think "reference" is the right word here. The person who
writes "Shirley..." isn't referring to the movie even though the term
was (first used) (popularized by) the movie. To be a reference to the
movie the person writing it must have that movie in mind. I think
that many of the people who write "Shirley you..." haven't seen the
movie or don't know it was used in the film.
I'm not one to use "Shirley...", but if I did, it wouldn't be a
reference to "Airplane". Until this thread came along I didn't
associate the phrase with that movie. I did see the movie, but I
don't remember the phrase being used in the movie.

Actually, come to think of it, it's the only thing I do remember about
the movie at all, except for the one scene in which Barbara
Billingsley speaks Jive.

Dominic Bojarski

R H Draney

2007-08-20 18:45:31 UTC

Actually, come to think of it, it's the only thing I do remember about
the movie at all, except for the one scene in which Barbara
Billingsley speaks Jive.

Do you like movies about gladiators?...r

--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

Dominic Bojarski

2007-08-20 19:39:27 UTC

Post by R H Draney

Actually, come to think of it, it's the only thing I do remember about
the movie at all, except for the one scene in which Barbara
Billingsley speaks Jive.

Do you like movies about gladiators?...r

Sorry. After scratching my head for nearly an hour, I still can't see
the connection. Please fill me in.

Dominic Bojarski

Dominic Bojarski

2007-08-20 19:47:32 UTC

Post by R H Draney

Actually, come to think of it, it's the only thing I do remember about
the movie at all, except for the one scene in which Barbara
Billingsley speaks Jive.

Do you like movies about gladiators?...r

Sorry. After scratching my head for nearly an hour, I still can't see
the connection. Please fill me in.
Dominic Bojarski

Never mind. I found it. No, I didn't remember that scene.

Dominic Bojarski

Sara Lorimer

2007-08-20 20:06:32 UTC

Post by R H Draney
Do you like movies about gladiators?...r

Sorry. After scratching my head for nearly an hour, I still can't see
the connection. Please fill me in.
Dominic Bojarski

Never mind. I found it. No, I didn't remember that scene.

If you saw the movie on TV, you might not've seen it. I believe that
scene was cut last time I watched the movie (which always cracks me up,
dork that I am).

--
SML

j***@yahoo.com

2007-08-20 03:28:20 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

A homonym for you and me, but not, I think, for many of our British
friends (who seem to use it the most).

--
Jerry Friedman

Roland Hutchinson

2007-08-20 06:57:00 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

A homonym for you and me, but not, I think, for many of our British
friends (who seem to use it the most).

And not a homonym for this American, either. But near enough in sound for
the purposes of jesting, Shirley.

--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.

Mike Lyle

2007-08-20 10:54:15 UTC

[...]

Post by tony cooper
You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

A homonym for you and me, but not, I think, for many of our British
friends (who seem to use it the most).

And not a homonym for this American, either. But near enough in
sound for the purposes of jesting, Shirley.

Well, for jesting porpoises, anyhow. Dear John Humphrys on the R4
/Today/ prog once had a short circuit in his brain when interviewing
somebody about an exhumation (it may even have been Pocahontas's: that
sort of thing, at any rate). He, quite reasonably, wanted to know why a
porpoise has been buried on top of whoever. The interviewee had said
there was a problem because of an overlying pauper's grave.

--
Mike.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Al in Dallas

2007-09-03 02:08:42 UTC

On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 02:57:00 -0400, Roland Hutchinson

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

A homonym for you and me, but not, I think, for many of our British
friends (who seem to use it the most).

And not a homonym for this American, either. But near enough in sound for
the purposes of jesting, Shirley.

Shirley, it's /SV"li/ for them and /SRli/ for us whether it's spelled
"Shirley" or "surely."

--
Al in St. Lou

Hatunen

2007-09-03 03:02:06 UTC

On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 21:08:42 -0500, Al in Dallas

Post by Al in Dallas
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 02:57:00 -0400, Roland Hutchinson

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

A homonym for you and me, but not, I think, for many of our British
friends (who seem to use it the most).

And not a homonym for this American, either. But near enough in sound for
the purposes of jesting, Shirley.

Shirley, it's /SV"li/ for them and /SRli/ for us whether it's spelled
"Shirley" or "surely."

Why do I get the feeling that some people haven't seen the movie
"Airplane!"?

--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (***@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

R H Draney

2007-09-03 06:32:28 UTC

Post by Hatunen
On Sun, 02 Sep 2007 21:08:42 -0500, Al in Dallas

Post by Al in Dallas
Shirley, it's /SV"li/ for them and /SRli/ for us whether it's spelled
"Shirley" or "surely."

Why do I get the feeling that some people haven't seen the movie
"Airplane!"?

Looks like I picked the wrong week to give up irony....r

--
"You got Schadenfreude on my Weltanschauung!"
"You got Weltanschauung in my Schadenfreude!"

John Holmes

2007-09-03 10:16:12 UTC

Post by Al in Dallas
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 02:57:00 -0400, Roland Hutchinson

Post by j***@yahoo.com
A homonym for you and me, but not, I think, for many of our British
friends (who seem to use it the most).

And not a homonym for this American, either. But near enough in
sound for the purposes of jesting, Shirley.

Shirley, it's /SV"li/ for them and /SRli/ for us whether it's spelled
"Shirley" or "surely."

Nope.
Shirley, /SV"li/
surely, /***@li/ to /sjOli/ to /SOli/ (covers most non-US, non-rhotic
accents, I think).

--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au

Al in Dallas

2007-09-03 16:34:35 UTC

Post by John Holmes

Post by Al in Dallas
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 02:57:00 -0400, Roland Hutchinson

Post by j***@yahoo.com
A homonym for you and me, but not, I think, for many of our British
friends (who seem to use it the most).

And not a homonym for this American, either. But near enough in
sound for the purposes of jesting, Shirley.

Shirley, it's /SV"li/ for them and /SRli/ for us whether it's spelled
"Shirley" or "surely."

Nope.
Shirley, /SV"li/
accents, I think).

I hadn't realized "surely" was pronounced liked that outside the US.

--
Al in St. Lou

Peter Moylan

2007-09-03 22:14:40 UTC

Post by Al in Dallas

most non-US, non-rhotic accents, I think).

I hadn't realized "surely" was pronounced liked that outside the US.

There are multiple variants. I pronounce "Shirley" John's way, but my
"surely" is just as likely to come out as /Suli/ or /Surli/, depending
on the phase of the moon. In any case, it's distinctly different from
"Shirley".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

j***@yahoo.com

2007-09-03 16:49:51 UTC

Post by Al in Dallas
On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 02:57:00 -0400, Roland Hutchinson

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

A homonym for you and me, but not, I think, for many of our British
friends (who seem to use it the most).

And not a homonym for this American, either. But near enough in sound for
the purposes of jesting, Shirley.

Shirley, it's /SV"li/ for them and /SRli/ for us whether it's spelled
"Shirley" or "surely."

The NSOED gives /'***@li/ first and /'S@:li/ second for "surely", but
only /'S@:li/ for "Shirley". (It uses /@:/ rather than a separate /
V"/ vowel.)

--
Jerry Friedman

John Dean

2007-08-20 17:15:47 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

A homonym for you and me, but not, I think, for many of our British
friends (who seem to use it the most).

It jibed nicely for us with "Shurely shome mishtake", Private Eye's lampoon
[1] of the recently late (Dear) Bill Deedes.

[1] And, indeed, Milord's lampoon of himself

--
John Dean
Oxford

Derek Turner

2007-08-20 08:14:23 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

As the OP tried a dictionary, perhaps it's worth pointing out that
Shirley is a proper noun: a girls' name. hth

Matthew Huntbach

2007-08-20 09:13:27 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

As the OP tried a dictionary, perhaps it's worth pointing out that Shirley is
a proper noun: a girls' name. hth

I believe it was originally a boys' name. The wrestler known professionally
as "Big Daddy" had the real name Shirley Crabtree.

I think the "Shirley" for "surely" joke is a Private Eyeism. Some people seem
never to tire of it. The humour comes from poking fun at people who are have
a habit of beginning sentences with "Surely" by supposing they are addressing
a fictitious "Shirley".

Matthew Huntbach

Pat Durkin

2007-08-20 12:35:41 UTC

Post by Matthew Huntbach

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?" It's a homonym for "Surely", and
written as a joke.

As the OP tried a dictionary, perhaps it's worth pointing out that
Shirley is a proper noun: a girls' name. hth

I believe it was originally a boys' name. The wrestler known
professionally
as "Big Daddy" had the real name Shirley Crabtree.
I think the "Shirley" for "surely" joke is a Private Eyeism. Some people seem
never to tire of it. The humour comes from poking fun at people who are have
a habit of beginning sentences with "Surely" by supposing they are addressing
a fictitious "Shirley".

Guy in our small town had the name "Shirley Quigley". I think the
derivation is the same region in Gr Brit as Evelyn and Beverl(e)y and
Joyce. . .originally names for men (surnames?), but gradually becoming
preferred for women.

Nick Spalding

2007-08-20 12:01:38 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

As the OP tried a dictionary, perhaps it's worth pointing out that
Shirley is a proper noun: a girls' name. hth

I believe that it was originally a boys' name and became a girls' one from
the influence of the novel "Shirley" by Charlotte Brontë which contains:

"Shirley Keeldar (she had no Christian name but Shirley: her parents, who
had wished to have a son, finding that, after eight years of marriage,
Providence had granted them only a daughter, bestowed on her the same
masculine family cognomen they would have bestowed on a boy, if with a boy
they had been blessed) - Shirley Keeldar was no ugly heiress: she was
agreeable to the eye."

--
Nick Spalding

HVS

2007-08-20 12:16:49 UTC

Post by Nick Spalding

Post by Derek Turner
As the OP tried a dictionary, perhaps it's worth pointing out
that Shirley is a proper noun: a girls' name. hth

I believe that it was originally a boys' name and became a
girls' one from the influence of the novel "Shirley" by
"Shirley Keeldar (she had no Christian name but Shirley: her
parents, who had wished to have a son, finding that, after eight
years of marriage, Providence had granted them only a daughter,
bestowed on her the same masculine family cognomen they would
have bestowed on a boy, if with a boy they had been blessed) -
Shirley Keeldar was no ugly heiress: she was agreeable to the
eye."

Very interesting; somewhat similar to the novelistic inventions of
"Wendy" and "Cedric".

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Arcadian Rises

2007-08-20 14:11:55 UTC

On Aug 20, 4:14?am, Derek Turner <***@cesmail.net> wrote:
[...]

Post by Derek Turner
As the OP tried a dictionary, perhaps it's worth pointing out that
Shirley is a proper noun: a girls' name. hth

Also the "bullfinch" or "bulfinch".

Thank you each and all.

John Dean

2007-08-20 17:18:20 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

As the OP tried a dictionary, perhaps it's worth pointing out that
Shirley is a proper noun: a girls' name. hth

A girl's name now (mainly) but originally a boy's name. Blame Currer Bell.

--
John Dean
Oxford

Steve Ketcham

2007-08-20 21:01:19 UTC

Post by John Dean

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

As the OP tried a dictionary, perhaps it's worth pointing out that
Shirley is a proper noun: a girls' name. hth

A girl's name now (mainly) but originally a boy's name. Blame Currer Bell.

Surely Shirley Temple had SOMETHING to do with it...

There's a website, http://babynamewizard.com/namevoyager/lnv0105.html ,
that shows the popularity of baby names by year since the 1890s or so.
(It's US-centric; based on the names in Social Security records.)

Shirley was never very popular for boys. Its popularity for girls
peaked in the 1930s, when it was the fourth most popular girl's name.
In 1910, it was 129th most popular, by 1960 105th.

They Java display is fun to play with.

Steve

the Omrud

2007-08-20 08:26:44 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

To digress for a moment, you should only use "won't" in this way when
you've already failed in your request, e.g. if nobody replied to a
previous enquiry. For the first such enquiry it should be "will".

I'm not comfortable with "a gentle soul", although I'm not sure why.
It would sit better as "Will any gentle soul ...".

Post by tony cooper
You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

It seems to me that part of the joke is that it isn't a homonym, but
merely similar sounding.

--
David
=====

Don Aitken

2007-08-20 10:56:55 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

To digress for a moment, you should only use "won't" in this way when
you've already failed in your request, e.g. if nobody replied to a
previous enquiry. For the first such enquiry it should be "will".
I'm not comfortable with "a gentle soul", although I'm not sure why.
It would sit better as "Will any gentle soul ...".

On the genealogy groups, some people have the habit (which other
people find deeply irritating) of addressing requeste to "SKS", which
apparently means "some kind soul".

--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"

HVS

2007-08-20 11:15:05 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

Post by Arcadian Rises
Trust me, I checked the dictionaries, I also googled <define
"Shirley"> but couldn't find the meaning of "Shirley" used in
this forum by our British contributors.
Won't a gentle soul please take the trouble to explain that
meaning?

I don't think I agree with that.
[thinks for a minute]
Nope; I don't agree with that.

The OP's question -- in the context as used -- sounds idiomatic,
grammatical, and entirely non-solecistic to me.

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed

Donna Richoux

2007-08-20 11:18:37 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

Sorry, I have to take Arcadian's side on "won't". It's hard to explain,
but it's used for plaintive, dismayed questions where hope is nearly
lost. "Won't someone please help?" I suppose you could say that no one
had offered help up to that moment, but the speaker was not required to
have said first "Will/would someone help me?"

Post by the Omrud
I'm not comfortable with "a gentle soul", although I'm not sure why.
It would sit better as "Will any gentle soul ...".

Or "some". "Won't some gentle soul please..."

"Won't someone please" turns up over 40,000 hits, about half of which
are in the form of "Won't someone please think of the children?" or a
parody thereof. (What did someone just call those catchphrases that are
generated by altering the last words, snowcones or something?)

Is this "Won't.." form American? (Now I start to hear the Beatles,
"Won't you please, please, help me...")

Post by tony cooper
You mean as in "Shirley you jest?"
It's a homonym for "Surely", and written as a joke.

It seems to me that part of the joke is that it isn't a homonym, but
merely similar sounding.

To many/most Americans, they are homonyms. Remember, for us, "sure" is
sher/shir/shur (all the same), not "shore" or "shoo-er".

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

the Omrud

2007-08-20 13:06:52 UTC

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

On reflection, I agree. I like your description of a plaintive,
dismayed question. I now realise that I didn't take into account the
earlier description of searching of dictionaries and Google, which
takes the part of having tried to find out the answer with no
success.

However, without this preamble, I would stick by my point - one only
becomes plaintive and dismayed because one has failed in the search
for an answer so far.

Post by Donna Richoux

Post by the Omrud
I'm not comfortable with "a gentle soul", although I'm not sure why.
It would sit better as "Will any gentle soul ...".

Or "some". "Won't some gentle soul please..."
"Won't someone please" turns up over 40,000 hits, about half of which
are in the form of "Won't someone please think of the children?" or a
parody thereof. (What did someone just call those catchphrases that are
generated by altering the last words, snowcones or something?)
Is this "Won't.." form American? (Now I start to hear the Beatles,
"Won't you please, please, help me...")

No, I don't think so - I was just not taking the whole paragraph into
account.

- Will you, won't you, will you, won't you, will you join the dance?
/etc/

--
David
=====

Donna Richoux

2007-08-20 13:50:45 UTC

Post by Donna Richoux
"Won't someone please" turns up over 40,000 hits, about half of which
are in the form of "Won't someone please think of the children?" or a
parody thereof. (What did someone just call those catchphrases that are
generated by altering the last words, snowcones or something?)

Snowclones. Our pal Ben Zimmer wrote in his August 9 column, "From A to
Zimmer":

http://blog.oup.com/2007/08/patterns/

A few years later on Language Log (my other blogging
home), a handy name emerged for these phrasal
templates: snowclones. The term came about in a
discussion of the canned line used by many
journalists, "If Eskimos have N words for snow, X
surely have Y words for Z." Attention soon turned to
other "snowclones" in snappier formulaic frames, such
as "X is the new Y" or "Have X, will travel."
Collecting snowclones eventually spread beyond
Language Log, and now you can find an extensive list
on Wikipedia, as well as a brand-new Snowclones
Database.

That last is a small but interesting list, which includes discussions
of:

(Dammit Jim,) I'm an X, not a Y!
X? We don't need no stinkin' X
In X, no one can hear you Y

The Snowclones editor appears to be swamped with suggestions, and asks
that people do research first before submitting any more. In the name of
research, I can report that "Will" or "Won't someone please think of the
children?" is a recurring line said by the minor character Helen Lovejoy
in "The Simpsons." Whether the writers were inspired by any particular
incident or person, I don't know.

--
Best -- Donna Richoux

Eric Schwartz

2007-08-22 01:56:16 UTC

Post by Donna Richoux
That last is a small but interesting list, which includes discussions
(Dammit Jim,) I'm an X, not a Y!
X? We don't need no stinkin' X
In X, no one can hear you Y

And of course the ever-popular

Im in ur X, Ying your Z

as made popular on the site http://www.icanhascheezburger.com/

Post by Donna Richoux
The Snowclones editor appears to be swamped with suggestions, and asks
that people do research first before submitting any more. In the name of
research, I can report that "Will" or "Won't someone please think of the
children?" is a recurring line said by the minor character Helen Lovejoy
in "The Simpsons." Whether the writers were inspired by any particular
incident or person, I don't know.

And in keeping with the "snowclones" theme, "<X> at will" is often
followed up by "Poor Will."

-=Eric

Oleg Lego

2007-08-20 15:44:55 UTC

Post by tony cooper
On Sun, 19 Aug 2007 19:55:56 -0700, Arcadian Rises

The main reason I don't like it is that it is of the "negative
question" variety, on a par with the negative statement as exemplified
by "Let's see if we can't come to an agreement."

In the case of the question, I am always tempted to answer "Yes. I
won't explain." or "No. I will explain."

In the case of the statement, I take it as meaning that we are looking
for ways to disagree.

Adam Funk

2007-08-20 18:35:50 UTC