the door off the kitchen

[tonbei]

My question is about "the door off the kitchen", specifically the
usage of "off" as in "She opened the door off the kitchen."

I asssume two possible floor plans from this phrase.
I've drawn a sketch to describe it here:
Loading Image...

1) means the kitchen and the door are separete.When you enter through
the door, you won't get a direct access to the kitchen.

2) means the kitchen and the door belong to the same space, therefore
not sperated by a wall or partition. The door is located a little far
away from the kitchen in that space, but when you enter through the
door, you could get an easy access to the kitchen.


What I want to know is : in 2), the usage of "off" in "a door off the
kitchen" is correct or not.
I'm sure that 1) is no problem at all.

[Snidely]

Post by tonbei
My question is about "the door off the kitchen", specifically the
usage of "off" as in "She opened the door off the kitchen."
I asssume two possible floor plans from this phrase.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/M3pissLnZK.jpg
1) means the kitchen and the door are separete.When you enter through
the door, you won't get a direct access to the kitchen.
2) means the kitchen and the door belong to the same space, therefore
not sperated by a wall or partition. The door is located a little far
away from the kitchen in that space, but when you enter through the
door, you could get an easy access to the kitchen.
What I want to know is : in 2), the usage of "off" in "a door off the
kitchen" is correct or not.
I'm sure that 1) is no problem at all.

I doubt that either 1) or 2) fit the context, which you didn't supply
this time.

In AmE usage, "a door off the kitchen" means you go into the kitchen to
find the door. The door is in one of the kitchen walls.

/dps

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Snidely

Post by tonbei
My question is about "the door off the kitchen", specifically the
usage of "off" as in "She opened the door off the kitchen."
I asssume two possible floor plans from this phrase.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/M3pissLnZK.jpg
1) means the kitchen and the door are separete.When you enter through
the door, you won't get a direct access to the kitchen.
2) means the kitchen and the door belong to the same space, therefore
not sperated by a wall or partition. The door is located a little far
away from the kitchen in that space, but when you enter through the
door, you could get an easy access to the kitchen.
What I want to know is : in 2), the usage of "off" in "a door off the
kitchen" is correct or not.
I'm sure that 1) is no problem at all.

I doubt that either 1) or 2) fit the context, which you didn't supply
this time.
In AmE usage, "a door off the kitchen" means you go into the kitchen to
find the door. The door is in one of the kitchen walls.

Yes, and it's not just AmE. As far as I know that is the meaning in
every variety of Englsh.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Snidely

Post by tonbei
My question is about "the door off the kitchen", specifically the
usage of "off" as in "She opened the door off the kitchen."
I asssume two possible floor plans from this phrase.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/M3pissLnZK.jpg
1) means the kitchen and the door are separete.When you enter through
the door, you won't get a direct access to the kitchen.
2) means the kitchen and the door belong to the same space, therefore
not sperated by a wall or partition. The door is located a little far
away from the kitchen in that space, but when you enter through the
door, you could get an easy access to the kitchen.
What I want to know is : in 2), the usage of "off" in "a door off the
kitchen" is correct or not.
I'm sure that 1) is no problem at all.

I doubt that either 1) or 2) fit the context, which you didn't supply
this time.
In AmE usage, "a door off the kitchen" means you go into the kitchen to
find the door. The door is in one of the kitchen walls.

Yes, and it's not just AmE. As far as I know that is the meaning in
every variety of Englsh.

Yes. Quite often there will be a door in the kitchen that leads to a
mud room, the garage, or to the outside. You *could* say that it's
the "the door to the mud room is off the kitchen", but the likely
thing to say is that "the door to the mud room is in the kitchen.".

What is also likely to be said is "the mud room is off the kitchen".
We generally refer to rooms, not doors, as "off" another room.

[Silvano]

Post by Tony Cooper
Yes. Quite often there will be a door in the kitchen that leads to a
mud room, the garage, or to the outside. You *could* say that it's
the "the door to the mud room is off the kitchen", but the likely
thing to say is that "the door to the mud room is in the kitchen.".
What is also likely to be said is "the mud room is off the kitchen".
We generally refer to rooms, not doors, as "off" another room.

Interesting difference in the layout of houses and flats. I have been in
a lot of them in several European countries, but I can't remember a
kitchen with a door leading to the garage or the outside. Kitchen doors
here lead to a corridor, vestibule or living room.

What's a mud room? The literal meaning is something I would not want to
have in my house, one English-German online dictionary does not know it
and Wikipedia redirects to "lobby", with some photos in the gallery
where the lobby is bigger than most flats in European cities, almost the
opposite of the picture in my mind of a room covered with mud.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Silvano
Interesting difference in the layout of houses and flats. I have been in
a lot of them in several European countries, but I can't remember a
kitchen with a door leading to the garage or the outside.

I don't think that is normal in Denmark either. Typically there is a
door from the kitchen to the scullery - which I expect is what Tony call
"mud room". If there's a door to the garage, it would be from the
scullery.

[Ruud Harmsen]

Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:47:30 +0100: Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Silvano
Interesting difference in the layout of houses and flats. I have been in
a lot of them in several European countries, but I can't remember a
kitchen with a door leading to the garage or the outside.

I don't think that is normal in Denmark either. Typically there is a
door from the kitchen to the scullery - which I expect is what Tony call
"mud room". If there's a door to the garage, it would be from the
scullery.

Will have to look up the word skullery. Never ever seen that before.
Is it where skull are kept? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scullery

Archaic, says Wiktionary. Not equivalent, it seems, to what in Dutch
is called bijkeuken, by-kitchen. Only few houses have that.

[Aidan Kehoe]

[...] Will have to look up the word skullery. Never ever seen that before.
Is it where skull are kept? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scullery
Archaic, says Wiktionary. Not equivalent, it seems, to what in Dutch
is called bijkeuken, by-kitchen. Only few houses have that.

It was disused but understood in my youth, I think it is fair to call it
archaic now. Unless you’re actually living in a house dating from the time they
were common.

[charles]

Post by Aidan Kehoe

[...] Will have to look up the word skullery. Never ever seen that
before. Is it where skull are kept?
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scullery
Archaic, says Wiktionary. Not equivalent, it seems, to what in Dutch
is called bijkeuken, by-kitchen. Only few houses have that.

It was disused but understood in my youth, I think it is fair to call it
archaic now. Unless you‘re actually living in a house dating from the
time they were common.

My parents' house, where I grew up, was built in about 1901. It had a
scullery.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Will have to look up the word skullery.

That word doesn't exist, but if it did, it might be what you suggest.
It's spelled "scullery".

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Archaic, says Wiktionary. Not equivalent, it seems, to what in Dutch
is called bijkeuken, by-kitchen. Only few houses have that.

Few houses in Denmark are without it.

[charles]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:47:30 +0100: Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Silvano
Interesting difference in the layout of houses and flats. I have been in
a lot of them in several European countries, but I can't remember a
kitchen with a door leading to the garage or the outside.

I don't think that is normal in Denmark either. Typically there is a
door from the kitchen to the scullery - which I expect is what Tony call
"mud room". If there's a door to the garage, it would be from the
scullery.

Will have to look up the word skullery. Never ever seen that before.
Is it where skull are kept? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scullery

It's 'scullery' - where the scullions worked

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Archaic, says Wiktionary. Not equivalent, it seems, to what in Dutch
is called bijkeuken, by-kitchen. Only few houses have that.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by charles

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:47:30 +0100: Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Silvano
Interesting difference in the layout of houses and flats. I have been in
a lot of them in several European countries, but I can't remember a
kitchen with a door leading to the garage or the outside.

I don't think that is normal in Denmark either. Typically there is a
door from the kitchen to the scullery - which I expect is what Tony call
"mud room". If there's a door to the garage, it would be from the
scullery.

Will have to look up the word skullery. Never ever seen that before.
Is it where skull are kept? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scullery

It's 'scullery' - where the scullions worked

busily peeling scallions?

[Kerr-Mudd, John]

On Sat, 02 Nov 2024 12:52:27 +0100

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:47:30 +0100: Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Silvano
Interesting difference in the layout of houses and flats. I have been in
a lot of them in several European countries, but I can't remember a
kitchen with a door leading to the garage or the outside.

I don't think that is normal in Denmark either. Typically there is a
door from the kitchen to the scullery - which I expect is what Tony call
"mud room". If there's a door to the garage, it would be from the
scullery.

Will have to look up the word skullery. Never ever seen that before.
Is it where skull are kept? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scullery
Archaic, says Wiktionary. Not equivalent, it seems, to what in Dutch
is called bijkeuken, by-kitchen. Only few houses have that.

WIWAL the farmhouse I grew up in had a "back kitchen" - unheated, where the
washing tub (vertical with wringer over), Blue Block (for extra whiteness!)
and, later on, the spindryer (that I was told to sit on to stop it
bouncing around the room) were kept - the pig boiling cistern wasn't used
in my time.

My aunt had a "scullery" for the same purpose - at the back of the
kitchen/dining room, with a serving hatch between, so possibly it
was previously the cooking area. She also had a "larder", whilst we only
had a "pantry".

Back to college - we drank in the Buttery. It didn't seem quite as cold as
the dairy back home, luckily.

[jerryfriedman]

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 21:19:28 +0000, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
..

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
WIWAL the farmhouse I grew up in had a "back kitchen" - unheated, where the
washing tub (vertical with wringer over), Blue Block (for extra whiteness!)
and, later on, the spindryer (that I was told to sit on to stop it
bouncing around the room) were kept - the pig boiling cistern wasn't
used in my time.
My aunt had a "scullery" for the same purpose - at the back of the
kitchen/dining room, with a serving hatch between, so possibly it
was previously the cooking area. She also had a "larder", whilst we only
had a "pantry".

..

The OED defines "scullery" as "In modern use: A small room
attached to a kitchen, in which the washing of dishes and
other dirty work is done; a back kitchen."

To me a pantry is rather upscale (we didn't have one) and
a larder, if it existed, would be below it on the scale.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by jerryfriedman
..

Post by Kerr-Mudd, John
WIWAL the farmhouse I grew up in had a "back kitchen" - unheated, where the
washing tub (vertical with wringer over), Blue Block (for extra whiteness!)
and, later on, the spindryer (that I was told to sit on to stop it
bouncing around the room) were kept - the pig boiling cistern wasn't
used in my time.
My aunt had a "scullery" for the same purpose - at the back of the
kitchen/dining room, with a serving hatch between, so possibly it
was previously the cooking area. She also had a "larder", whilst we only
had a "pantry".

..
The OED defines "scullery" as "In modern use: A small room
attached to a kitchen, in which the washing of dishes and
other dirty work is done; a back kitchen."
To me a pantry is rather upscale (we didn't have one) and
a larder, if it existed, would be below it on the scale.

Quite. Having a pantry would cost you some serious bread.

WIWAL we had a pantry, but my mother had worked in some big houses, so
she might have picked up the term from there.

[lar3ryca]

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:47:30 +0100: Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Silvano
Interesting difference in the layout of houses and flats. I have been in
a lot of them in several European countries, but I can't remember a
kitchen with a door leading to the garage or the outside.

I don't think that is normal in Denmark either. Typically there is a
door from the kitchen to the scullery - which I expect is what Tony call
"mud room". If there's a door to the garage, it would be from the
scullery.

Will have to look up the word skullery. Never ever seen that before.
Is it where skull are kept? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scullery
Archaic, says Wiktionary. Not equivalent, it seems, to what in Dutch
is called bijkeuken, by-kitchen. Only few houses have that.

It's scullery, not skullery.

[Snidely]

Post by lar3ryca

Post by Ruud Harmsen
Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:47:30 +0100: Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Silvano
Interesting difference in the layout of houses and flats. I have been in
a lot of them in several European countries, but I can't remember a
kitchen with a door leading to the garage or the outside.

I don't think that is normal in Denmark either. Typically there is a
door from the kitchen to the scullery - which I expect is what Tony call
"mud room". If there's a door to the garage, it would be from the
scullery.

Will have to look up the word skullery. Never ever seen that before.
Is it where skull are kept? https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scullery
Archaic, says Wiktionary. Not equivalent, it seems, to what in Dutch
is called bijkeuken, by-kitchen. Only few houses have that.

It's scullery, not skullery.

I suspect one of the posters was being humorous.

/dps

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:23:12 +0100, Silvano

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
Yes. Quite often there will be a door in the kitchen that leads to a
mud room, the garage, or to the outside. You *could* say that it's
the "the door to the mud room is off the kitchen", but the likely
thing to say is that "the door to the mud room is in the kitchen.".
What is also likely to be said is "the mud room is off the kitchen".
We generally refer to rooms, not doors, as "off" another room.

Interesting difference in the layout of houses and flats. I have been in
a lot of them in several European countries, but I can't remember a
kitchen with a door leading to the garage or the outside. Kitchen doors
here lead to a corridor, vestibule or living room.
What's a mud room? The literal meaning is something I would not want to
have in my house, one English-German online dictionary does not know it
and Wikipedia redirects to "lobby", with some photos in the gallery
where the lobby is bigger than most flats in European cities, almost the
opposite of the picture in my mind of a room covered with mud.

The "mud room" is (or was) a popular feature of new houses built in
the Midwest when I was living in the Midwest.

A "mud room" is a small room that the homeowner can enter from the
back yard or garage. There are pegs in the wall where coats can be
hung. Shoes or boots are removed in the mud room so dirt isn't
tracked into the house. It serves as a "cloak room", but we don't
use that term regarding residential properties.

The house we had built in a Chicago suburb in the early 1970s had a
mud room accessed from both the back yard and the garage, and off the
kitchen. On rainy or snowy days, we entered the house through the mud
room in order not to track snow or mud into the house.

Here is a floor plan (randomly selected from a Google search) of a
house with a "mud room".

Loading Image...

Some "mud rooms" are called "utility rooms", and some are called
"laundry rooms" because they are also where the the washer and dryer
are located.

"Vestibule" and "lobby" are not terms used in the US describing
houses. Commerical building have vestibules and lobbies.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Tony Cooper
Here is a floor plan (randomly selected from a Google search) of a
house with a "mud room".
https://assets.architecturaldesigns.com/plan_assets/342095819/original/420048WNT_FL-1_1662748610.jpg

That is what I call a scullery.

Post by Tony Cooper
Some "mud rooms" are called "utility rooms", and some are called
"laundry rooms" because they are also where the the washer and dryer
are located.

In Denmark there are pegs, washingmachine+dryer, a sink or a tap with
cold water + maybe one with hot water. That is also where heating
gadgets will be and the water pipes enter there.

I have setup shelves in mine where I store utensils, spare household
items and my tools.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 16:47:02 +0100, Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Here is a floor plan (randomly selected from a Google search) of a
house with a "mud room".
https://assets.architecturaldesigns.com/plan_assets/342095819/original/420048WNT_FL-1_1662748610.jpg

That is what I call a scullery.

Post by Tony Cooper
Some "mud rooms" are called "utility rooms", and some are called
"laundry rooms" because they are also where the the washer and dryer
are located.

In Denmark there are pegs, washingmachine+dryer, a sink or a tap with
cold water + maybe one with hot water. That is also where heating
gadgets will be and the water pipes enter there.

Yes, the "mud room" might also contain a utility sink. The hot water
heater might be in that room.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I have setup shelves in mine where I store utensils, spare household
items and my tools.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Here is a floor plan (randomly selected from a Google search) of a
house with a "mud room".
https://assets.architecturaldesigns.com/plan_assets/342095819/original/420048WNT_FL-1_1662748610.jpg

That is what I call a scullery.

Another example of an English word used in Denmark?

According to dictionaries, sculleries are off the kitchen
and used for washing dishes and maybe other dirty kitchen-
related work.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Some "mud rooms" are called "utility rooms", and some are called
"laundry rooms" because they are also where the the washer and dryer
are located.

In Denmark there are pegs, washingmachine+dryer, a sink or a tap with
cold water + maybe one with hot water. That is also where heating
gadgets will be and the water pipes enter there.

There is no such uniformity in the U.S. In the house I grew
up in, the washing machine, dryer, furnace, water softener,
tools, and workbench were in the basement (hence not in a mud
room). I don't remember where the water heater was. You
wouldn't put that in the basement, would you? Cooking and
eating utensils were in the kitchen and dining room, of
course.

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
I have setup shelves in mine where I store utensils, spare household
items and my tools.

If "setup" is a verb phrase, "set up" would be more
standard, though some native speakers would write
"set-up" or even "setup".

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Here is a floor plan (randomly selected from a Google search) of a
house with a "mud room".
https://assets.architecturaldesigns.com/plan_assets/342095819/original/420048WNT_FL-1_1662748610.jpg

That is what I call a scullery.

Another example of an English word used in Denmark?
According to dictionaries, sculleries are off the kitchen
and used for washing dishes and maybe other dirty kitchen-
related work.

In one of the houses we lived in when I was growing up there was a
room off the kitchen we called "the pantry". It was lined with
shelves and cabinets. The "good" dishes were kept there, and the
shelves were used for foodstuffs.

There were also rows of canned fruits and jams that my grandmother had
made for us. "Canned", but in glass jars.

[charles]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Here is a floor plan (randomly selected from a Google search) of a
house with a "mud room".
https://assets.architecturaldesigns.com/plan_assets/342095819/original/420048WNT_FL-1_1662748610.jpg

That is what I call a scullery.

Another example of an English word used in Denmark?
According to dictionaries, sculleries are off the kitchen
and used for washing dishes and maybe other dirty kitchen-
related work.

In one of the houses we lived in when I was growing up there was a
room off the kitchen we called "the pantry". It was lined with
shelves and cabinets. The "good" dishes were kept there, and the
shelves were used for foodstuffs.

It's from Norman French: Pain being "bread" - the place you kept your bread

At college we had a place called The Buttery where we bought drinks -
derived from "Boire" = drink

[jerryfriedman]

[sculleries]

Post by charles

Post by Tony Cooper
In one of the houses we lived in when I was growing up there was a
room off the kitchen we called "the pantry". It was lined with
shelves and cabinets. The "good" dishes were kept there, and the
shelves were used for foodstuffs.

Probably a lot of people would call that a pantry.

Post by charles
It's from Norman French: Pain being "bread" - the place you kept your bread

But to confuse English-speakers, the standard French word
for "pantry" is /office/.

Post by charles
At college we had a place called The Buttery where we bought drinks -
derived from "Boire" = drink

AHD thinks that sense of "buttery" is related to "bottle",
not to "boire".

It seems that in some fictional British colleges and maybe
real ones, the buttery is where you buy things to eat.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by Tony Cooper
In one of the houses we lived in when I was growing up there was a
room off the kitchen we called "the pantry". It was lined with
shelves and cabinets. The "good" dishes were kept there, and the
shelves were used for foodstuffs.

That is not uncommon in Denmark. We call it "spisekammer" - "eating
chamber" - but you don't eat in there. My house is too small to have
such a room.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen
That is what I call a scullery.

Another example of an English word used in Denmark?

Oh no. I was talking in an English context. In Danish the room is "et
bryggers" ("brygge" means "brew"). Originally it was a room for brewing
beer. Gradually it turned into a room where you put the things that you
don't want anywhere else. And it's practical in climate where you shoes
get dirty easily.

Post by jerryfriedman
There is no such uniformity in the U.S. In the house I grew
up in, the washing machine, dryer, furnace, water softener,
tools, and workbench were in the basement (hence not in a mud
room). I don't remember where the water heater was. You
wouldn't put that in the basement, would you?

It can be in Denmark, but my house doesn't have a proper basement.

Post by jerryfriedman
Cooking and eating utensils were in the kitchen and dining room, of
course.

Yes. I was talking about extra soap, dishwashing tablets and the like
plus extra flour, sugar and so on.

[Snidely]

Watch this space, where jerryfriedman advised that...

Post by jerryfriedman
There is no such uniformity in the U.S. In the house I grew
up in, the washing machine, dryer, furnace, water softener,
tools, and workbench were in the basement (hence not in a mud
room). I don't remember where the water heater was. You
wouldn't put that in the basement, would you? Cooking and
eating utensils were in the kitchen and dining room, of
course.

No water softener in my youth (or since), but the first house I
remember was much as you described, with lines for clothes drying, and
1/3 was finished as a family room [1] ... but you walked through the
unfinished part to get there. Water heater was probably down there,
but I don't remember.

The second house, where I spent something like 20 years, had only a
narrow basement, 1/3 width down the center of the house, with furnace
[2] and water heater. The washing machine and dryer and pantry shelves
were in the utility room, which was not set up as a mudroom [3], and
not quite connected to the kitchen. In between was the back door, down
a step or two from the rest of the house, and about the size of a
closet, out of that was a porch connected to the garage by a small
roof. The entry space had hooks for winter coats, and we often left
boots there, but it would be inflation to call it a mudroom, and boots
were often removed on the porch [4] and left there.

[1] knotty pine paneling, fireplace, hence my ideas of an ideal family
room
[2] Iron Fireman brand, originally burning sawdust but converted to oil
well before we moved in.
[3] had a deep laundry sink, about 3x2x2 or near 90x60x60. Came with a
small WC which my parents removed to make the space more usable; the
house had 2 other bathrooms (one of which had the bath).
[4] the porch had sides of garden lattice and a layer of Virgina
Creeper, so sheltered from most winds.

/dps

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Snidely
Watch this space, where jerryfriedman advised that...

Post by jerryfriedman
There is no such uniformity in the U.S. In the house I grew
up in, the washing machine, dryer, furnace, water softener,
tools, and workbench were in the basement (hence not in a mud
room). I don't remember where the water heater was. You
wouldn't put that in the basement, would you? Cooking and
eating utensils were in the kitchen and dining room, of
course.

No water softener in my youth (or since),

We didn't bother with water softener in Birmingham, as the tap water
was soft enough to be used for topping up car batteries. (I think
that's the case for most big cities in the UK, with the very important
exception of London.) Here the water is very hard, so we need water
softener for the dishwasher.

Post by Snidely
but the first house I remember was much as you described, with lines
for clothes drying, and 1/3 was finished as a family room [1] ... but
you walked through the unfinished part to get there. Water heater was
probably down there, but I don't remember.

[ … ]

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Snidely
Watch this space, where jerryfriedman advised that...

Post by jerryfriedman
There is no such uniformity in the U.S. In the house I grew
up in, the washing machine, dryer, furnace, water softener,
tools, and workbench were in the basement (hence not in a mud
room). I don't remember where the water heater was. You
wouldn't put that in the basement, would you? Cooking and
eating utensils were in the kitchen and dining room, of
course.

No water softener in my youth (or since), but the first house I
remember was much as you described, with lines for clothes drying, and
1/3 was finished as a family room [1] ... but you walked through the
unfinished part to get there. Water heater was probably down there,
but I don't remember.

..

The finished third or more of the basement in our old
house was called the rec room. The floor and ceiling
were finished in highly informal style, but the walls
were concrete blocks with some pictures for children
painted on them. (When my brother decided he needed
more privacy than sharing a bedroom with me afforded,
his friends painted some additional decorations.)

You did walk through the rec room to get to the laundry
room (not just "laundry"). And, excitingly for children,
there was a laundry chute from the second floor down to
the basement, with an additional opening on the first
floor.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mark Brader]

Post by jerryfriedman
There is no such uniformity in the U.S. In the house I grew
up in, the washing machine, dryer, furnace, water softener,
tools, and workbench were in the basement (hence not in a mud
room). I don't remember where the water heater was. You
wouldn't put that in the basement, would you?

I'd say "where else?" Ours is indeed in the basement, in the
utility room with the washer, dryer, and furnace. It and the
furnace are the only appliances needing a gas supply.

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by jerryfriedman
In the house I grew
up in, the washing machine, dryer, furnace, water softener,
tools, and workbench were in the basement (hence not in a mud
room). I don't remember where the water heater was. You
wouldn't put that in the basement, would you?

I'd say "where else?" Ours is indeed in the basement, in the
utility room with the washer, dryer, and furnace. It and the
furnace are the only appliances needing a gas supply.

I was thinking you'd want it closer to the kitchen and
bathrooms, where you didn't need to send it back uphill.
From your response and others, I see I was wrong.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mark Brader]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Mark Brader

Post by jerryfriedman
In the house I grew
up in, the washing machine, dryer, furnace, water softener,
tools, and workbench were in the basement (hence not in a mud
room). I don't remember where the water heater was. You
wouldn't put that in the basement, would you?

I'd say "where else?" Ours is indeed in the basement, in the
utility room with the washer, dryer, and furnace. It and the
furnace are the only appliances needing a gas supply.

I was thinking you'd want it closer to the kitchen and
bathrooms,

Two-dimensional thinking? It's only a few feet below the kitchen.

Post by jerryfriedman
where you didn't need to send it back uphill.

Uphill! The water has enough pressure that that's no concern.

Post by jerryfriedman
From your response and others, I see I was wrong.

Never mind, then.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by Tony Cooper
Here is a floor plan (randomly selected from a Google search) of a
house with a "mud room".
https://assets.architecturaldesigns.com/plan_assets/342095819/original/420048WNT_FL-1_1662748610.jpg

That is what I call a scullery.

Post by Tony Cooper
Some "mud rooms" are called "utility rooms", and some are called
"laundry rooms" because they are also where the the washer and
dryer are located.

In Denmark there are pegs, washingmachine+dryer, a sink or a tap
with cold water + maybe one with hot water. That is also where
heating gadgets will be and the water pipes enter there.
I have setup shelves in mine where I store utensils, spare household
items and my tools.

Almost all Australian houses have a laundry, with a big sink, which is
where you keep the washing machine and things like that. The size
varies, but it's rarely suitable for use as a cloak room. You don't go
through it to get to the rest of the house[1]. Instead, as you enter the
back of the house you can either go into the laundry or proceed, not
through the laundry, to the rest of the house. In two of the houses I've
lived in, you went through the laundry to get to the toilet.

[1] My present house is an exception. We have two back doors. One leads
into the main part of the house, and the other gets you into the
laundry. It's possible to walk through the laundry to a corridor where
some of the bedrooms are.

[Snidely]

Saturday, Peter Moylan murmurred ...

Post by Peter Moylan
Almost all Australian houses have a laundry, with a big sink, which is
where you keep the washing machine and things like that.

What a difference it makes to have the commas.

/dps

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:23:12 +0100, Silvano

..

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Silvano
What's a mud room? The literal meaning is something I would not want to
have in my house, one English-German online dictionary does not know it
and Wikipedia redirects to "lobby", with some photos in the gallery
where the lobby is bigger than most flats in European cities, almost the
opposite of the picture in my mind of a room covered with mud.

The "mud room" is (or was) a popular feature of new houses built in
the Midwest when I was living in the Midwest.
A "mud room" is a small room that the homeowner can enter from the
back yard or garage. There are pegs in the wall where coats can be
hung. Shoes or boots are removed in the mud room so dirt isn't
tracked into the house. It serves as a "cloak room", but we don't
use that term regarding residential properties.
The house we had built in a Chicago suburb in the early 1970s had a
mud room accessed from both the back yard and the garage, and off the
kitchen. On rainy or snowy days, we entered the house through the mud
room in order not to track snow or mud into the house.
Here is a floor plan (randomly selected from a Google search) of a
house with a "mud room".
https://assets.architecturaldesigns.com/plan_assets/342095819/original/420048WNT_FL-1_1662748610.jpg
Some "mud rooms" are called "utility rooms", and some are called
"laundry rooms" because they are also where the the washer and dryer
are located.
"Vestibule" and "lobby" are not terms used in the US describing
houses. Commerical building have vestibules and lobbies.

I agree about "lobby", but here's a house with a
vestibule:

https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3161-Coleridge-Rd_Cleveland-Heights_OH_44118_M41136-03308

Here's an architect's discussion of a plan for a new house,
or mansion, with a vestibule:

https://www.tamifaulknerdesign.com/blog/floor/plan/design/tricks/concealing/imperfections/foyer/groin/vault

I also see "vestibule entry" and "vestibule entrance".

In the house I grew up in, if you came in the front door
(which we seldom did), you were in a small square space
with a door in front of you, and if you went through
that, you were in the living room (omitting some
detail). What would you call that initial space? A
foyer, maybe, or an entry?

--
Jerry Friedman

[Tony Cooper]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:23:12 +0100, Silvano

..

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Silvano
What's a mud room? The literal meaning is something I would not want to
have in my house, one English-German online dictionary does not know it
and Wikipedia redirects to "lobby", with some photos in the gallery
where the lobby is bigger than most flats in European cities, almost the
opposite of the picture in my mind of a room covered with mud.

The "mud room" is (or was) a popular feature of new houses built in
the Midwest when I was living in the Midwest.
A "mud room" is a small room that the homeowner can enter from the
back yard or garage. There are pegs in the wall where coats can be
hung. Shoes or boots are removed in the mud room so dirt isn't
tracked into the house. It serves as a "cloak room", but we don't
use that term regarding residential properties.
The house we had built in a Chicago suburb in the early 1970s had a
mud room accessed from both the back yard and the garage, and off the
kitchen. On rainy or snowy days, we entered the house through the mud
room in order not to track snow or mud into the house.
Here is a floor plan (randomly selected from a Google search) of a
house with a "mud room".
https://assets.architecturaldesigns.com/plan_assets/342095819/original/420048WNT_FL-1_1662748610.jpg
Some "mud rooms" are called "utility rooms", and some are called
"laundry rooms" because they are also where the the washer and dryer
are located.
"Vestibule" and "lobby" are not terms used in the US describing
houses. Commerical building have vestibules and lobbies.

I agree about "lobby", but here's a house with a
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3161-Coleridge-Rd_Cleveland-Heights_OH_44118_M41136-03308
Here's an architect's discussion of a plan for a new house,
https://www.tamifaulknerdesign.com/blog/floor/plan/design/tricks/concealing/imperfections/foyer/groin/vault
I also see "vestibule entry" and "vestibule entrance".
In the house I grew up in, if you came in the front door
(which we seldom did), you were in a small square space
with a door in front of you, and if you went through
that, you were in the living room (omitting some
detail). What would you call that initial space? A
foyer, maybe, or an entry?

In our first house in Florida, there was such an area and we called it
the "foyer". Two small closets flanked the space.

[LionelEdwards]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:23:12 +0100, Silvano

...

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Silvano
What's a mud room? The literal meaning is something I would not want to
have in my house, one English-German online dictionary does not know it
and Wikipedia redirects to "lobby", with some photos in the gallery
where the lobby is bigger than most flats in European cities, almost the
opposite of the picture in my mind of a room covered with mud.

The "mud room" is (or was) a popular feature of new houses built in
the Midwest when I was living in the Midwest.
A "mud room" is a small room that the homeowner can enter from the
back yard or garage. There are pegs in the wall where coats can be
hung. Shoes or boots are removed in the mud room so dirt isn't
tracked into the house. It serves as a "cloak room", but we don't
use that term regarding residential properties.
The house we had built in a Chicago suburb in the early 1970s had a
mud room accessed from both the back yard and the garage, and off the
kitchen. On rainy or snowy days, we entered the house through the mud
room in order not to track snow or mud into the house.
Here is a floor plan (randomly selected from a Google search) of a
house with a "mud room".
https://assets.architecturaldesigns.com/plan_assets/342095819/original/420048WNT_FL-1_1662748610.jpg
Some "mud rooms" are called "utility rooms", and some are called
"laundry rooms" because they are also where the the washer and dryer
are located.
"Vestibule" and "lobby" are not terms used in the US describing
houses. Commerical building have vestibules and lobbies.

I agree about "lobby", but here's a house with a
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3161-Coleridge-Rd_Cleveland-Heights_OH_44118_M41136-03308
Here's an architect's discussion of a plan for a new house,
https://www.tamifaulknerdesign.com/blog/floor/plan/design/tricks/concealing/imperfections/foyer/groin/vault
I also see "vestibule entry" and "vestibule entrance".
In the house I grew up in, if you came in the front door
(which we seldom did), you were in a small square space
with a door in front of you, and if you went through
that, you were in the living room (omitting some
detail). What would you call that initial space? A
foyer, maybe, or an entry?

In BrE that would be a "hallway", be it never so grand, or
"hall" for short. Vestibule would be grander; logia and
foyer only in industrial settings.

If even hall sounds too grandiose, it might simply become
the "entrance hall".

[jerryfriedman]

..

Post by LionelEdwards

Post by jerryfriedman
In the house I grew up in, if you came in the front door
(which we seldom did), you were in a small square space
with a door in front of you, and if you went through
that, you were in the living room (omitting some
detail). What would you call that initial space? A
foyer, maybe, or an entry?

In BrE that would be a "hallway", be it never so grand, or
"hall" for short. Vestibule would be grander; logia and
foyer only in industrial settings.
If even hall sounds too grandiose, it might simply become
the "entrance hall".

Thanks to you and Athel. I think of a hallway as longer
than that and a hall as bigger in all dimensions.

On the other hand, I don't remember what we called it.
We didn't refer to it often.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:23:12 +0100, Silvano

..

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Silvano
What's a mud room? The literal meaning is something I would not want to
have in my house, one English-German online dictionary does not know it
and Wikipedia redirects to "lobby", with some photos in the gallery
where the lobby is bigger than most flats in European cities, almost the
opposite of the picture in my mind of a room covered with mud.

The "mud room" is (or was) a popular feature of new houses built in
the Midwest when I was living in the Midwest.
A "mud room" is a small room that the homeowner can enter from the
back yard or garage. There are pegs in the wall where coats can be
hung. Shoes or boots are removed in the mud room so dirt isn't
tracked into the house. It serves as a "cloak room", but we don't
use that term regarding residential properties.
The house we had built in a Chicago suburb in the early 1970s had a
mud room accessed from both the back yard and the garage, and off the
kitchen. On rainy or snowy days, we entered the house through the mud
room in order not to track snow or mud into the house.
Here is a floor plan (randomly selected from a Google search) of a
house with a "mud room".
https://assets.architecturaldesigns.com/plan_assets/342095819/original/420048WNT_FL-1_1662748610.jpg
Some "mud rooms" are called "utility rooms", and some are called
"laundry rooms" because they are also where the the washer and dryer
are located.
"Vestibule" and "lobby" are not terms used in the US describing
houses. Commerical building have vestibules and lobbies.

I agree about "lobby", but here's a house with a
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3161-Coleridge-Rd_Cleveland-Heights_OH_44118_M41136-03308
Here's an architect's discussion of a plan for a new house,
https://www.tamifaulknerdesign.com/blog/floor/plan/design/tricks/concealing/imperfections/foyer/groin/vault
I also see "vestibule entry" and "vestibule entrance".
In the house I grew up in, if you came in the front door
(which we seldom did), you were in a small square space
with a door in front of you, and if you went through
that, you were in the living room (omitting some
detail). What would you call that initial space? A
foyer, maybe, or an entry?

hallway, probably.

[Bertel Lund Hansen]

Post by jerryfriedman
In the house I grew up in, if you came in the front door
(which we seldom did), you were in a small square space
with a door in front of you, and if you went through
that, you were in the living room (omitting some
detail). What would you call that initial space? A
foyer, maybe, or an entry?

In Danish it's "en entre". If it is very small, it's "et vindfang" (a
windcatch).

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
In the house I grew up in, if you came in the front door
(which we seldom did), you were in a small square space
with a door in front of you, and if you went through
that, you were in the living room (omitting some
detail). What would you call that initial space? A
foyer, maybe, or an entry?

In Danish it's "en entre". If it is very small, it's "et vindfang" (a
windcatch).

The club I belonged to at Princeton had one, which a
fellow member and physics major called the airlock.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Snidely]

Watch this space, where jerryfriedman advised that...

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
In the house I grew up in, if you came in the front door
(which we seldom did), you were in a small square space
with a door in front of you, and if you went through
that, you were in the living room (omitting some
detail). What would you call that initial space? A
foyer, maybe, or an entry?

In Danish it's "en entre". If it is very small, it's "et vindfang" (a
windcatch).

The club I belonged to at Princeton had one, which a
fellow member and physics major called the airlock.

Sounds right.

-d

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Bertel Lund Hansen

Post by jerryfriedman
In the house I grew up in, if you came in the front door
(which we seldom did), you were in a small square space
with a door in front of you, and if you went through
that, you were in the living room (omitting some
detail). What would you call that initial space? A
foyer, maybe, or an entry?

In Danish it's "en entre". If it is very small, it's "et vindfang" (a
windcatch).

The club I belonged to at Princeton had one, which a
fellow member and physics major called the airlock.

A similar place at the back entrance to one of the science buildings at
Oxford was called the decompression chamber.

[Snidely]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 10:23:12 +0100, Silvano

..

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Silvano
What's a mud room? The literal meaning is something I would not want to
have in my house, one English-German online dictionary does not know it
and Wikipedia redirects to "lobby", with some photos in the gallery
where the lobby is bigger than most flats in European cities, almost the
opposite of the picture in my mind of a room covered with mud.

The "mud room" is (or was) a popular feature of new houses built in
the Midwest when I was living in the Midwest.
A "mud room" is a small room that the homeowner can enter from the
back yard or garage. There are pegs in the wall where coats can be
hung. Shoes or boots are removed in the mud room so dirt isn't
tracked into the house. It serves as a "cloak room", but we don't
use that term regarding residential properties.
The house we had built in a Chicago suburb in the early 1970s had a
mud room accessed from both the back yard and the garage, and off the
kitchen. On rainy or snowy days, we entered the house through the mud
room in order not to track snow or mud into the house.
Here is a floor plan (randomly selected from a Google search) of a
house with a "mud room".
https://assets.architecturaldesigns.com/plan_assets/342095819/original/420048WNT_FL-1_1662748610.jpg
Some "mud rooms" are called "utility rooms", and some are called
"laundry rooms" because they are also where the the washer and dryer
are located.
"Vestibule" and "lobby" are not terms used in the US describing
houses. Commerical building have vestibules and lobbies.

I agree about "lobby", but here's a house with a
https://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/3161-Coleridge-Rd_Cleveland-Heights_OH_44118_M41136-03308
Here's an architect's discussion of a plan for a new house,
https://www.tamifaulknerdesign.com/blog/floor/plan/design/tricks/concealing/imperfections/foyer/groin/vault
I also see "vestibule entry" and "vestibule entrance".
In the house I grew up in, if you came in the front door
(which we seldom did), you were in a small square space
with a door in front of you, and if you went through
that, you were in the living room (omitting some
detail). What would you call that initial space? A
foyer, maybe, or an entry?

I'd go with entry; to me, a foyer has to be at least slightly larger; I
allow "foyer" for apartment entries where there are a row of mailboxes
of the type seen in post office lobbies.

Entries seem common where the inside and outside temperatures are
different enough that containing spillage is useful.

[As mentioned in Yet Another Post, I grew up with a back entry, but the
front door opened into a hallway with the living room accessed a few
steps in and turn through an arch. Other rooms and the stairs to
upstairs were accessed by doors along the hall.

/dps

[Mark Brader]

Post by jerryfriedman

Post by Tony Cooper
"Vestibule" and "lobby" are not terms used in the US describing
houses. Commerical building have vestibules and lobbies.

I agree about "lobby", but here's a house with a
vestibule...
I also see "vestibule entry" and "vestibule entrance".
In the house I grew up in, if you came in the front door
(which we seldom did), you were in a small square space
with a door in front of you, and if you went through
that, you were in the living room (omitting some
detail). What would you call that initial space? A
foyer, maybe, or an entry?

My house had an area like that, only without the separating
wall between it and the living room. I don't have a term that
I usually use for it, but if I had to, I would call it the
entry area. With a wall I could call it a vestibule, but
I usually think of that word in relation to train cars
(see below). A "foyer" (pronounced "foy-yay", of course)
or "lobby" is more grand and would be found in a large building.

Long-distance passenger trains often have an enclosed area at
one end, or one at each end, of each passenger car. When you
board from the platform you turn right or left, one way taking
you into the next car and the other way taking you into the
main part of the same car. Either way may require opening a
door to proceed. That area is a vestibule. On older trains
it often was open to the air and then it was called a platform.

[Mark Brader]

My house had an area like that...

For greater clarity: it's still my (and my wife's) house.
That was a typo.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Mark Brader
My house had an area like that, only without the separating
wall between it and the living room. I don't have a term that
I usually use for it, but if I had to, I would call it the
entry area. With a wall I could call it a vestibule, but
I usually think of that word in relation to train cars
(see below). A "foyer" (pronounced "foy-yay", of course)
or "lobby" is more grand and would be found in a large building.
Long-distance passenger trains often have an enclosed area at
one end, or one at each end, of each passenger car. When you
board from the platform you turn right or left, one way taking
you into the next car and the other way taking you into the
main part of the same car. Either way may require opening a
door to proceed. That area is a vestibule. On older trains
it often was open to the air and then it was called a platform.

As some might know, there's an election in the offing here in the US.

At one time, candidates spoke to crowds from the vestibule of a train
at "whistlestops".

Loading Image...

[Mark Brader]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Mark Brader
Long-distance passenger trains often have an enclosed area at
one end, or one at each end, of each passenger car. When you
board from the platform you turn right or left, one way taking
you into the next car and the other way taking you into the
main part of the same car. Either way may require opening a
door to proceed. That area is a vestibule. On older trains
it often was open to the air and then it was called a platform.

As some might know, there's an election in the offing here in the US.
At one time, candidates spoke to crowds from the vestibule of a train
at "whistlestops".
https://politicaldictionary.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/whistle-stopping.jpg

No, from the platform of the train car.

[Madhu]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Mark Brader
Long-distance passenger trains often have an enclosed area at
one end, or one at each end, of each passenger car. When you
board from the platform you turn right or left, one way taking
you into the next car

you have to walk through a "gangway" for that. if moving -- have to walk
on top unevenly jerking moving plates and rubber mats through which you
can see the tracks. Indian Railways refers to the whole deal as
"vestibule".

"Unreserved" coaches are isolated and don't have any gangways, or
vestibules. It is a sight to see food and tea vendors on the side of the
train (while the train is in motion) negotiating their between reserved
coaches to the unreserved coaches while balancing their "wares"

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Mark Brader
and the other way taking you into the
main part of the same car. Either way may require opening a
door to proceed. That area is a vestibule. On older trains
it often was open to the air and then it was called a platform.

As some might know, there's an election in the offing here in the US.
At one time, candidates spoke to crowds from the vestibule of a train
at "whistlestops".
https://politicaldictionary.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/whistle-stopping.jpg

No, from the platform of the train car.

what is the point here? that a vestibule has to be covered? from a
useless google search i see vestibules used since at least 1930 (again
Indian Railways) to describe that sort of thing.

like the one pictured here
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ci/AL18g_SY_IKKPZyCd4hvOhKLhFPHN0YIRXS-Y4hptY8RHFpMwJBc9pnZjXbiWK2GOuG7YQjTC5lKYug

[Snidely]

Post by Madhu

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Mark Brader
Long-distance passenger trains often have an enclosed area at
one end, or one at each end, of each passenger car. When you
board from the platform you turn right or left, one way taking
you into the next car

you have to walk through a "gangway" for that. if moving -- have to walk
on top unevenly jerking moving plates and rubber mats through which you
can see the tracks. Indian Railways refers to the whole deal as
"vestibule".
"Unreserved" coaches are isolated and don't have any gangways, or
vestibules. It is a sight to see food and tea vendors on the side of the
train (while the train is in motion) negotiating their between reserved
coaches to the unreserved coaches while balancing their "wares"

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Mark Brader
and the other way taking you into the
main part of the same car. Either way may require opening a
door to proceed. That area is a vestibule. On older trains
it often was open to the air and then it was called a platform. Tony

As some might know, there's an election in the offing here in the US.
At one time, candidates spoke to crowds from the vestibule of a train
at "whistlestops".
https://politicaldictionary.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/whistle-stopping.jpg

No, from the platform of the train car.

what is the point here? that a vestibule has to be covered? from a
useless google search i see vestibules used since at least 1930 (again
Indian Railways) to describe that sort of thing.
like the one pictured here
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ci/AL18g_SY_IKKPZyCd4hvOhKLhFPHN0YIRXS-Y4hptY8RHFpMwJBc9pnZjXbiWK2GOuG7YQjTC5lKYug

Platforms have to be open so that you can speak to a crowd.

<URL:Loading Image...>
at
<URL:https://georgetowner.com/articles/2024/08/26/publicity-pro-recounts-campaign-adventures-via-whistle-stop/>

/dps

[jerryfriedman]

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
Yes. Quite often there will be a door in the kitchen that leads to a
mud room, the garage, or to the outside. You *could* say that it's
the "the door to the mud room is off the kitchen", but the likely
thing to say is that "the door to the mud room is in the kitchen.".
What is also likely to be said is "the mud room is off the kitchen".
We generally refer to rooms, not doors, as "off" another room.

Interesting difference in the layout of houses and flats. I have been in
a lot of them in several European countries, but I can't remember a
kitchen with a door leading to the garage or the outside.

..

in the last apartment I lived in, there were two doors to
the outside, one in the kitchen and one in the living room.
The door to the kitchen was the main entrance, that is,
closest to the parking area. I'm not clear on the history
of that house (now torn down), but either my apartment or
one of the others was an addition--probably my apartment.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Mark Brader]

Post by Silvano

Post by Tony Cooper
Quite often there will be a door in the kitchen that leads to a
mud room, the garage, or to the outside...

Interesting difference in the layout of houses and flats. I have been in
a lot of them in several European countries, but I can't remember a
kitchen with a door leading to the garage or the outside.

My house in Toronto, as renovated in about 1981, is like that. The
ground floor is a single open area with doors to outside at each end,
and the kitchen is the back part of it.

[Snidely]

Watch this space, where Snidely advised that...

Post by tonbei
My question is about "the door off the kitchen", specifically the
usage of "off" as in "She opened the door off the kitchen."
I asssume two possible floor plans from this phrase.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/M3pissLnZK.jpg
1) means the kitchen and the door are separete.When you enter through
the door, you won't get a direct access to the kitchen.
2) means the kitchen and the door belong to the same space, therefore
not sperated by a wall or partition. The door is located a little far
away from the kitchen in that space, but when you enter through the
door, you could get an easy access to the kitchen.
What I want to know is : in 2), the usage of "off" in "a door off the
kitchen" is correct or not.
I'm sure that 1) is no problem at all.

I doubt that either 1) or 2) fit the context, which you didn't supply this
time.
In AmE usage, "a door off the kitchen" means you go into the kitchen to find
the door. The door is in one of the kitchen walls.

However, the less common "a door way off the kitchen" would fit
your 1), but would also be confused with "a doorway off the kitchen".

And I'd want to use "from" ... "a door way off from the kitchen".

/dps

[Hibou]

Post by Snidely
Watch this space, where Snidely advised that...

Post by Snidely
In AmE usage, "a door off the kitchen" means you go into the kitchen
to find the door.  The door is in one of the kitchen walls.

However, the less common "a door way off the kitchen" would fit
your 1), but would also be confused with "a doorway off the kitchen".
And I'd want to use "from" ... "a door way off from the kitchen".

If the door is too far off the kitchen, you could push it to.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by Snidely
Watch this space, where Snidely advised that...

Post by tonbei
My question is about "the door off the kitchen", specifically the
usage of "off" as in "She opened the door off the kitchen."
I asssume two possible floor plans from this phrase.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/M3pissLnZK.jpg
1) means the kitchen and the door are separete.When you enter through
the door, you won't get a direct access to the kitchen.
2) means the kitchen and the door belong to the same space, therefore
not sperated by a wall or partition. The door is located a little far
away from the kitchen in that space, but when you enter through the
door, you could get an easy access to the kitchen.
What I want to know is : in 2), the usage of "off" in "a door off the
kitchen" is correct or not.
I'm sure that 1) is no problem at all.

I doubt that either 1) or 2) fit the context, which you didn't supply this
time.
In AmE usage, "a door off the kitchen" means you go into the kitchen to find
the door. The door is in one of the kitchen walls.

However, the less common "a door way off the kitchen" would fit
your 1), but would also be confused with "a doorway off the kitchen".
And I'd want to use "from" ... "a door way off from the kitchen".
/dps

Splitting "doorway" into two words suggests to me that door is quite
a way away from the kitchen.

[Phil]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Snidely
Watch this space, where Snidely advised that...

Post by tonbei
My question is about "the door off the kitchen", specifically the
usage of "off" as in "She opened the door off the kitchen."
I asssume two possible floor plans from this phrase.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/M3pissLnZK.jpg
1) means the kitchen and the door are separete.When you enter through
the door, you won't get a direct access to the kitchen.
2) means the kitchen and the door belong to the same space, therefore
not sperated by a wall or partition. The door is located a little far
away from the kitchen in that space, but when you enter through the
door, you could get an easy access to the kitchen.
What I want to know is : in 2), the usage of "off" in "a door off the
kitchen" is correct or not.
I'm sure that 1) is no problem at all.

I doubt that either 1) or 2) fit the context, which you didn't supply this
time.
In AmE usage, "a door off the kitchen" means you go into the kitchen to find
the door. The door is in one of the kitchen walls.

However, the less common "a door way off the kitchen" would fit
your 1), but would also be confused with "a doorway off the kitchen".
And I'd want to use "from" ... "a door way off from the kitchen".
/dps

Splitting "doorway" into two words suggests to me that door is quite
a way away from the kitchen.

Indeed, perhaps it was once _on_ the kitchen and has been removed.

[Snidely]

Post by Phil

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by Snidely
Watch this space, where Snidely advised that...

Post by tonbei
My question is about "the door off the kitchen", specifically the
usage of "off" as in "She opened the door off the kitchen."
I asssume two possible floor plans from this phrase.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/M3pissLnZK.jpg
1) means the kitchen and the door are separete.When you enter through
the door, you won't get a direct access to the kitchen.
2) means the kitchen and the door belong to the same space, therefore
not sperated by a wall or partition. The door is located a little far
away from the kitchen in that space, but when you enter through the
door, you could get an easy access to the kitchen.
What I want to know is : in 2), the usage of "off" in "a door off the
kitchen" is correct or not.
I'm sure that 1) is no problem at all.

I doubt that either 1) or 2) fit the context, which you didn't supply this
time.
In AmE usage, "a door off the kitchen" means you go into the kitchen to find
the door. The door is in one of the kitchen walls.

However, the less common "a door way off the kitchen" would fit
your 1), but would also be confused with "a doorway off the kitchen".
And I'd want to use "from" ... "a door way off from the kitchen".
/dps

Splitting "doorway" into two words suggests to me that door is quite
a way away from the kitchen.

Indeed, perhaps it was once _on_ the kitchen and has been removed.

Good suggestions. But I was trying to cover vocalizing "doorway" vs
"door way", and we could be a bit off with those sounds.

/dps

[lar3ryca]

Post by Phil

Post by Snidely
Watch this space, where Snidely advised that...

My question is about  "the door off the kitchen", specifically  the
usage of "off" as in "She opened the door off the kitchen."
I asssume two possible floor plans from this phrase.
https://image02.seesaawiki.jp/a/4/a4674/M3pissLnZK.jpg
1) means the kitchen and the door are separete.When you enter through
the door, you won't get a direct access to the kitchen.
2) means the kitchen and the door belong to the same space, therefore
not sperated by a wall or partition. The door is located a little far
away from the kitchen in that space, but when you enter through the
door, you could get an easy access to the kitchen.
What I want to know is : in 2), the usage of "off" in "a door off the
kitchen" is correct or not.
I'm sure that 1) is no problem at all.

I doubt that either 1) or 2) fit the context, which you didn't supply this
time.
In AmE usage, "a door off the kitchen" means you go into the kitchen to find
the door.  The door is in one of the kitchen walls.

However, the less common "a door way off the kitchen" would fit
your 1), but would also be confused with "a doorway off the kitchen".
And I'd want to use "from" ... "a door way off from the kitchen".
/dps

Splitting "doorway" into two words suggests to me  that door is quite
a way away from the kitchen.

Indeed, perhaps it was once _on_ the kitchen and has been removed.

One of my favourite answers when someone asks "What's that?" is
"It's a part off an airplane."
When doubt is expressed, I of course answer "Well, it isn't ON an airplane."

[Stefan Ram]

Post by tonbei
1) means the kitchen and the door are separete.

Heads up! You totally dropped the ball on spelling "separate".

So, about that "door off the kitchen" thing - it's usually talking
about some entryway that takes you to a whole other room next to
where you whip up your avocado toast, you know?

|You try the handle off the road, it opens do not be afraid
"The Stranger Song" (1967) - Leonard Cohen (1934/2016)